Politics Thread

[Caf]

Providing a commmon defense and promoting the General Welfare are defined by Article 1, Section 2. Healthcare is not mentioned so we should add an Amendment if that's the route the vast majority and not just a little less than half of the collective wants to go.

I'm glad we cleared that up! Thanks Brew!

[Caf]

We all probably believe that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are rights.
That forms the basis of many of our amendments and laws. And we use that to create societal support to protect them.
(i.e. police to protect our right to life)

Some countries in their social contracts (in fact most of the industrialized world) have decided they will get all their citizens to join in and provide universal, basic health care benefits. Most do it with a nonprofit administration. Only one is truly "socialized" where the doctors are paid by the government directly (Great Britain).

So, they decided (using our constitutional base) that the "right" to life that includes police protection for each and every citizen, should also include basic health care for each and every citizen.

It's not a stretch to say we couldn't do the same. It might save us a lot of money. The thought process may sound like it's out of left field for many conservative leaning people. But it's been done successfully around the world. Our hodge podge system is a veritable nightmare, and hopefully someday it will be fixed. Not in my lifetime.

Can you flush this out?

[X-man]

Did you read what I wrote? I didn't say police protection was a right.
I said life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were rights.
Then I noted we as a society decided to support the right to life with the protection a police department affords the citizens.
We also fund a military to protect us. We do a lot of things to support those basic rights. Some of the ideas are enshrined in amendments.

We could, if we so chose, decide to support life with basic health care for all the people. Other countries have.

Brew either can't read or is unable to understand what is being said. As Trump would say...SAD!!!

[LA Muskie]

You are confusing "rights' with "things we as a society want people to have".

Freedom of speech and religion are "rights". Forcing someone else to pay for your food, shelter and medical care are not rights.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."


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[Strange Brew]

Brew either can't read or is unable to understand what is being said. As Trump would say...SAD!!!

I understand it and reject the argument that b/c we have police at the local and state level we should have a national healthcare system. Again, thanks for playing.

[paulxu]

I understand it and reject the argument that b/c we have police at the local and state level we should have a national healthcare system. Again, thanks for playing.

That wasn't the argument.

[X-man]

That wasn't the argument.

Thanks, Paul. Either Brew is incredibly dense or he just won't participate in a discussion about what obligations we as members of society have to each other. It is possible that he really believes that the only thing government should do is protect life and private property, but I doubt it. So I cannot "thank him for playing" because he won't actually play. It would be instructive though to have XU87 (and Brew) answer my earlier question as to whether they believe in society insuring that everyone have access to food, shelter, education, and healthcare (e.g. via programs like food stamps, housing subsidies, public schools and universities, and Medicaid). If not, simply say so and we all know where they are coming from. But if so, on what basis because the "rights" vs "wishes" becomes a straw man in this discussion.

[paulxu]

Can you flush this out?

Here's a brief overview that might be instructive.



A more detailed analysis can be found here.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/me...es_2015_v7.pdf

[boozehound]

I don't know, or care, about whether or not healthcare is a right.

All I know, is that thanks to The Emergency Medical and Treatment Labor Act people with or without insurance, get medical attention when they really need it. When people need attention they either have insurance, foot the bill if they can, take out massive amounts of debt, foot the bill to to the government+hospitals, or just don't go. That's an obsolete system which is an enormous drag on the economy.

This isn't a question of whether or not people should get healthcare from the government, because they already do. The government can fund it, encourage prevention practices like annual checkups, negotiate lower drug prices, or not and let it ruin some people's lives while paying the bill for others anyway.

I agree. We are providing worse care than much of Western Europe at a substantially higher cost (see Paul's chart). It seems obvious to me that we need to fix it. We can do better.

[Strange Brew]

The

Thanks, Paul. Either Brew is incredibly dense or he just won't participate in a discussion about what obligations we as members of society have to each other. It is possible that he really believes that the only thing government should do is protect life and private property, but I doubt it. So I cannot "thank him for playing" because he won't actually play. It would be instructive though to have XU87 (and Brew) answer my earlier question as to whether they believe in society insuring that everyone have access to food, shelter, education, and healthcare (e.g. via programs like food stamps, housing subsidies, public schools and universities, and Medicaid). If not, simply say so and we all know where they are coming from. But if so, on what basis because the "rights" vs "wishes" becomes a straw man in this discussion.

The obligations we share as a society are outlined by the Constitution. Yes, I believe every US citizen should have access to all those things you mentioned (they do) however I don't believe we should force people to pay for other people's life indefinitely.