The Wall

The brilliance of the Shutdown is that you can decide for yourself. Are you for the wall, or are you not for the wall?

Now you may think Donald Trump is Hitler, but that is not the choice.

Maybe you don't like me claiming anything Trump is doing is "brilliant".

But the brilliance in Trumps stand is that you can easily define yourself.

This government shutdown is about The Wall.

Are you for the Wall? Are You Against the Wall?

I am a single issue voter. I am for The Wall. I am for enforcing immigration laws already on the books. Laws are laws, and they should mean something. Disregarding the existing law because you don't like Trump, I can't understand that. It is the law. I think if you don't like the law, you should change the law. Then you should enforce the law.


We live in a lawless society. I don't blame Trump for that. I blame us.

Building the wall is a good start in ending illegals.

Enforcing the law, or changing the law solves the problem. If people don't like the law they should change it.

I’m on the fence (no pun intended). I would support it if I had assurance that Mexicans don’t have ladders (breach the wall by climbing over) or shovels (breach the wall by tunneling under). Help me out.

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Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

I’m on the fence (no pun intended). I would support it if I had assurance that Mexicans don’t have ladders (breach the wall by climbing over) or shovels (breach the wall by tunneling under). Help me out.

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Good point but I think the idea is to deter as much as possible and make it difficult to enter illegally. Enforcement of the law is just as important in this. If you are here and didn't enter the country as you should have, you should be detained and sent back. Still an enormous cost to that as well.

Nothing can be done to approach a 100% stop to all illegal immigration across the Mexican border short of something like the Berlin Wall with manned machine gun towers every 50 yards with weapons free. However, a physical barrier of some kind will slow it down. That’s all most on the Right want. That, and enforce the laws already on the books.

Of course, neither party wants to solve the immigration issue and under no circumstances will Pelosi and Schumer give Trump a win. The Republicans wants to campaign on the Democrats being soft on border security and supporting illegal aliens. The Democrats wants to campaign on the Republicans being anti immigrant racists. Both should get off their high horses and do their damned jobs. Pass real immigration reform, including finally addressing DACA and the Dreamers, and improve border security.


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Live near the border before you make such a fool hardy choice. The wall won’t do a damn thing to illegals.

I told my wife just yesterday that illegals choose to cross an arid desert rather than fill out paperwork for resident alien status. I told her that for them they chose their perceived easier approach.

I think it’s more like drugs, if you actually punished employers for hiring illegals they might not hire so many. Like drugs, if you actually made an effort to combat usage it might shrink.

We don’t bother punishing employers. I am sure it is the “rich white person” reason but what ever you think it is it is still a fact.


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Originally Posted by ArizonaXUGrad

We don’t bother punishing employers. I am sure it is the “rich white person” reason but what ever you think it is it is still a fact.

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You do realize that if the prospective employee provides a drivers license (given to illegals with impunity) and a social security card that matches the name, for I-9 purposes, an employer cannot question the validity of citizenship of the person? This is assuming the employer is having all new hires complete an I-9. How do you punish the employer for that? Now, if they’re not bothering with an I-9, lock them up.

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Even if you don’t think a wall will work which I’m not sure anyone genuinely believes it won’t be effective to some extent, it’s not really expensive at all. The opposition makes no sense to me

I visited the "wall" that is in place at Nogales this past October. The point of the wall in Nogales is to keep people from having easy cross-over in urban areas where they can assimilate easily into the population and not be found. The point is to force them to cross in dangerous areas like the desert. Despite this, you still have people willing to try. I also told that most of those trying to sneak in are paying the cartels to do so. It was eye-opening experience. I'm not sure a "wall" will do much. But I do think immigration laws need some tightening up.

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Originally Posted by bjf123

You do realize that if the prospective employee provides a drivers license (given to illegals with impunity) and a social security card that matches the name, for I-9 purposes, an employer cannot question the validity of citizenship of the person? This is assuming the employer is having all new hires complete an I-9. How do you punish the employer for that? Now, if they’re not bothering with an I-9, lock them up.

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They don’t use e-verify, they aren’t doing anything to confirm a social isn’t being used twice. By the way, an illegal if using a social # will be used twice or three times. This is not difficult for an employer to check. They don’t because they pay low wages and need those illegals to keep running.

This is a problem of easy job supply that is caused by employers who don’t care if they hire illegal or not.


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Originally Posted by scoscox

Even if you don’t think a wall will work which I’m not sure anyone genuinely believes it won’t be effective to some extent, it’s not really expensive at all. The opposition makes no sense to me

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$5 billion is not expensive? With attitudes like that no wonder we’re so far in debt. Also what is the opportunity cost for a wall that may only be effective “to some extent”? What could we do with that $ to more effectively address the problem?

Don’t get me wrong, I want to keep illegal immigrants out as much as Trump, but I’m not going to blindly support a wall without knowing it will work.

5 billion is pennies man. If it prevents even a fraction of illegal immigrants it pays for itself 5x over every year

Also I was being generous to the “walls don’t work” crowd. Personally I think it will be extremely effective and is essential to any serious border security. We have basically tried everything else and it doesn’t work

I want a wall on a Canadian border to keep all those hosers out!

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Originally Posted by ArizonaXUGrad

They don’t use e-verify, they aren’t doing anything to confirm a social isn’t being used twice. By the way, an illegal if using a social # will be used twice or three times. This is not difficult for an employer to check. They don’t because they pay low wages and need those illegals to keep running.

This is a problem of easy job supply that is caused by employers who don’t care if they hire illegal or not.


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Then pass a law requiring everyone use e-verify. It’s only required in certain circumstances today. Don’t blame the employer for following existing law.


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We've been told a million times that Mexico will pay for it. No argument here. Pretty simple. Where's the check?

I loved The Wall by Pink Floyd.

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Originally Posted by bjf123

Then pass a law requiring everyone use e-verify. It’s only required in certain circumstances today. Don’t blame the employer for following existing law.


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100% blame lazy employers who want a stupid wall that is a solution searching for a problem it won’t fix and force the tax payer foot the bill. There has to a limit in greed and employers don’t know it. If you want them out that is the solution. Not a 5 billion dollar waste of money.

The reality nobody wants to talk about is a resident alien program that is much easier to use and would prevent a stream of illegals coming into the country. They would take advantage of legally entering.

I have lived here 20 years and have experience with this. The wall is a joke that people who 2000 miles from any border just don’t get the punchline.


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Originally Posted by scoscox

5 billion is pennies man.

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You must be a Democrat... or a Republican.

Build the damn thing....10,000 feet high.
#LegalAmericansFirst

Walls on the border certainly do work. A wall will not eliminate illegals and drugs from entering the country, but everywhere on the border where a wall has been constructed there has been a marked reduction in illegals and drugs entering the U.S. Not sure if it’s the best use of resources to build a physical wall along the entire length of the border, but it will reduce illegals and narcotics coming here.

If he thinks he can build a wall for $5 billion dollars, then I'm kind of for giving it to him and letting him try. I'd be more in favor of this if I thought that once this failed miserably, which I'm almost certain it would, then that would be the end of it, but it wouldn't be. He'd ask for more, and we'd be right back to where we are now.

If he wants to put a wall across the entire border, then he's gonna need a lot more than $5 billion. A significant part of the border is privately owned or corporately owned. I'm not sure $5 billion would be enough to acquire all that land even before they started building.

Much of the geography is desert, or mountains, or swamp. Building a structure like a wall would not be easy, or cheap, and it would be less easy and less cheap to maintain.

Then there is the Rio Grande. That may be a part of the border where Mexico is willing to pay for the wall. If we build a wall and cut off our side of the river, then we basically cut off the primary water and irrigation source for that entire region and give it to Mexico, who would likely charge those people a ton more than what they're paying for that water.

But he's gonna build a wall across the border!! For $5 billion dollars!! Okay, sure. It was ridiculous to say that Mexico would pay for it. It's equally ridiculous to say that it can be done for $5 billion.

The real shame of this is that no one has really asked any of the Border Agents what they think, and if they have, then they've been ignored. The thing is that they all seem to agree that a Great Wall of the United States across the entire border is a very bad idea, but a wall in certain areas is a very good idea and would be very helpful. So, why not do that?? Put a wall across the parts of the border (roughly 20-30 percent) where it would actually be helfpul!

Of course, that's probably not going to happen. There are those who are against any sort of a wall just because Trump wants it, and will insinuate that anyone who supports it is a bigot no matter how practical their reasoning is. There are others who are for the wall just because the democrats do not want it and will insinuate that they are helping the terrorists no matter how practical their reasons are for not wanting it. It's a clear case of both sides going to such an extreme that both sides are wrong. As some have already mentioned, far more terrorists and drugs come in through the airports, and if you really want to stop the flow of illegals then you need to be just as rough on the companies that hire them as you do anything else. But, there are definitely areas where a wall would help. I'm for putting it there, and only there. Hell, maybe that would only cost $5 billion. But, what's disturbing is that nothing he has said or done indicates that he has any sort of a plan as to how the wall is going to work, and that would be a nice thing to hear before just putting any amount of money toward it. But, we're in the middle of a hissy fit of epically stupid proportions, and no one who is directly involved has really been impacted yet, which is another shame.

Walls/Fences in high volume areas (near border cities, roads etc) have shown to reduce inflow. I would not be opposed to expanding some of those. A wall accross the entire border is not only unrealistic to build for $5.6 billion but it is a silly way to address the immigration problem. Illegal Mexico border crossings by all accounts have been on the decline for years. Getting actual numbers is difficult but it’s still estimated that almost half of illegals are expired legal visits.

Realistically Trump is a lot smarter than he gets credit for from the left in manipulating the media. I truly believe he doesn’t care if there is a wall or not. In fact he recently said a fence would be better. So who knows... it’s all likely a distraction anyways at this point.

I am not against updated walls in high populated areas. They are already there as far as I have seen. Some may need repair, toss money at that but $5b is a high number.


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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Realistically Trump is a lot smarter than he gets credit for from the left in manipulating the media.

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I think you'd be hard pressed to find people even among the left who would deny that. If he's anything he's a genius with the media

Maybe if there's leftover funds from the Mexico wall it can be sent to Putin in case he wanw to rebuild the Berlin wall.

Heck, when it comes to immigration and Trump, the press has a lot of self inflicted wounds and he doesn’t have to work hard to make them look incompetent.

Press:

- Look at the pictures of immigrants in cages under the Trump admin! Wait those pictures were taken when Obama was president.
- Trump is separating kids from there family’s. Wait Obama administration did same.
- Trump uses tear gas on immigrants. Oops- another tactic the Obama administration used.

Glad to see some of these things have been addressed albeit a few years late.

As a sovereign nation, we need to secure our border. I could care less on the form: wall, drones, sensors, more border patrol agents, or other technologies. Unfortunately neither side of the aisle has communicated what it should look like. Someone please give us a freakin plan! Trump sounded idiotic when he said Mexico was going to pay for the wall and Democrats come off like they don’t care about securing the border. Great, stupid talking points for both sides and we again get to see what a dysfunctional government looks like.

I've lived in Muirfield since 1992 and the Muirfield Assn. refuses to allow walls/fences, etc. However, I live in abject fear each spring, summer and fall that deer will come into my yard and eat our hostas and infect me or my family with Lyme disease. Also, I fear that my neighbor's leaves will blow into my yard and make me spend too much time cleaning up after him. Finally there are small children living nearby and I'm fearful that they will run into my yard and bite me. So, I am going to the next Muirfield Assn. meeting and insist that I be allowed to build a wall around my entire yard for these reasons and that they MUST pay for it.

I'll let you all know how that turns out.

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Originally Posted by vee4xu

Maybe if there's leftover funds from the Mexico wall it can be sent to Putin in case he wanw to rebuild the Berlin wall.

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To keep people from entering or leaving..... quite a difference. Kind of like apples n oranges.

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Originally Posted by vee4xu

I've lived in Muirfield since 1992 and the Muirfield Assn. refuses to allow walls/fences, etc. However, I live in abject fear each spring, summer and fall that deer will come into my yard and eat our hostas and infect me or my family with Lyme disease. Also, I fear that my neighbor's leaves will blow into my yard and make me spend too much time cleaning up after him. Finally there are small children living nearby and I'm fearful that they will run into my yard and bite me. So, I am going to the next Muirfield Assn. meeting and insist that I be allowed to build a wall around my entire yard for these reasons and that they MUST pay for it.



I'll let you all know how that turns out.

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You do live in a free country where you can move to a different neighborhood. Sure seems like a lot of rules for you to have to follow. You must enjoy following the rules(laws) of this neighborhood. Maybe if some homeless people move in, they might put up a fence to keep them out Or would you just welcome them with open arms.

Today's fun:

“This should have been done by all of the presidents that preceded me, and they all know it,” Trump said during a news conference on Friday. “Some of them have told me that we should have done it.”

On Monday, former President Jimmy Carter joined the three other living former presidents in confirming that Trump lied about the claim.

“I have not discussed the border wall with President Trump, and do not support him on the issue,” Carter said in a statement through his presidential center.

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Originally Posted by scoscox

I think you'd be hard pressed to find people even among the left who would deny that. If he's anything he's a genius with the media

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Huh? He is an idiot with the media. He lies an average of 10 times a day, then gets mad when they call him on it.

P.S. Mods - can we move to politics thread where this belongs?

Being truthful does not equate to being good at media. In fact it’s usually an inverse relationship. But he is undeniably good at dominating media and demanding attention. He’s in the wwe hall of fame, had one of the most popular network reality shows of all time and dominated New York headlines basically his whole life. He had billions in free media in the election. He’s good at it

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Originally Posted by Sonoran Desert Muskie

Walls on the border certainly do work. A wall will not eliminate illegals and drugs from entering the country, but everywhere on the border where a wall has been constructed there has been a marked reduction in illegals and drugs entering the U.S. Not sure if it’s the best use of resources to build a physical wall along the entire length of the border, but it will reduce illegals and narcotics coming here.

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So what you’re saying is “if we have border walls, only illegals will cross borders”? Is this like “if we have gun laws, only criminals will have guns.”?

Here’s an interesting read:
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...ized-migration
General conclusion: walls only work to divert illegal migrants.

Again I ask, is the wall really the best use of money to solve a problem, or a is this a political stunt? Will it actually make the problem worse because now the public will think we have a solution?

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Originally Posted by X-ROX

You do live in a free country where you can move to a different neighborhood. Sure seems like a lot of rules for you to have to follow. You must enjoy following the rules(laws) of this neighborhood. Maybe if some homeless people move in, they might put up a fence to keep them out Or would you just welcome them with open arms.

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You need to relax Jackson. It's a freaking joke. I was actually making fun of this entire thread, which is also a joke.

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Originally Posted by X-ROX

To keep people from entering or leaving..... quite a difference. Kind of like apples n oranges.

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Again, a joke.

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Originally Posted by vee4xu

You need to relax Jackson. It's a freaking joke. I was actually making fun of this entire thread, which is also a joke.

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Sorry.Didnt realize that

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...-deter-illegal

Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) said Tuesday that President Trump's proposed wall along the southern border is not the best solution to curbing illegal immigration.

"I don't like walls. I don't want to wall people in and wall people out," Paul said on CNBC's "Squawk Box."

"I don’t want free, open borders either," he continued. "I think you have to remove the incentives for people to come."

“My fellow Americans, tonight I’m misspeaking to you....”

Lol that’s his opening.