http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...ined-with-hope
Enquirer has a pretty lengthy look at the various development options happening along the streetcar route. Construction on the line hasn't even begun and there are some huge deals underway.
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http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...ined-with-hope
Enquirer has a pretty lengthy look at the various development options happening along the streetcar route. Construction on the line hasn't even begun and there are some huge deals underway.
The banks is really coming along too. Two of my friends just bought condos in the downtown area in the last month. There's more going on down there every day.
I hit the Righteous Room after the fireworks Sunday. It's a great example of how to do a downtown bar right. The ability to take advantage of the street with the open windows, and the courtyard area in back too. Nicholson's is re-doing their front area to open it up more too.
The Righteous Room has a great happy hour if you're downtown. Everything is half price.
You read the article and there are some who are already concerned that the increased development is going to displace the poor who reside there now. Comments to the effect of, as property values begin to rise the city needs to start planning on how to incorporate affordable (read subsidized or low rent) housing into the mix. WTF??? So we're (private and public) going to pump millions of dollars into cleaning up, revitalizing, redeveloping that area and we're concerned about where the people who are partly responsible for destroying it in the first place are going to live?
Welcome to the new America.Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet16
Just curious. Why do we need a street car that provides limited stops, uphill routes that are at best a traffic clogger, ? Why do we need a street car line that will have to have its operating costs subsidised or if they aren't, it will cost too damned much to ride?.
If it were a mass transit system such as a subway or el that could move people to and from downtown to various communities, it would make sense. But a street car line which is nothing more than a Cinderella's carriage that will supposedly invigorate redevelopment of the Over the Rhine area and Clifton or Vine Street Hill areas??? It's ridiculous.
Hey, maybe we should save the money and give it to the poor!!! Now that's a novel idea that's older than the hills on which the line will be built.:(
Why do we need a subsidized highway system? Why do we need busses? Why do we need bridges? Why do we need to re-do fountain square?Quote:
Originally Posted by wkrq59
The short answer is that downtown was dying, and still will die without investment. Street car programs in other cities have shown to encourage private investment because of the permanent nature of the tracks. The route is not subject to change, and because of the relative size of the capital investment to the operating costs, eliminating the route is not subject to the whimsy of an new city council or a sudden increase in gas prices.
The permanent, fixed investment brings private investment dollars in the form of bank loans for businesses to develop on the line that would not otherwise be available. It attracts business that are willing to speculate on a revitalized business and entertainment corridor. The revitalized corridor is an appealing place for young people to live when they graduate college. The increase in employable young people attracts larger businesses. There is a significant population of young people that is attracted to the idea of living without a car.
In 1980, Seattle and Cincinnati had about the same city population. In 2010, Seattle boasts approximately 617,000 residents to Cincinnati's 352,000. Seattle has a long running commitment to transit solutions, including street cars and light rail, and has enjoyed a huge increase in mass transit ridership during a time that Cincinnati is seeing decreases and higher fares to offset lost revenues.
Supporters of the streetcar see a continuing investment in transit solutions, of which the streetcar is one component. The streetcar on its own is not a drop-in solution. It is a step along a path of investment in the core of the city.
I know a lot of people that are against the streetcar. What I don't know is anyone who is pitching a better idea to invest and rebuild the population and business base in the heart of the city. What's your idea, Q?
I'm a Seattle resident. It's not exactly the poster child for public transit systems. The bus system works pretty well, but that's about it.
Compared to Cincinnati, it's the poster child. The reason I picked Seattle is about 30 years ago, both cities were in a very similar situation. The streetcar people love to point to Portland, but Cincinnati isn't going to be Portland. I'd be thrilled if Cincinnati became Seattle.Quote:
Originally Posted by smileyy
The point is, a commitment to investment in the city core draws residents, and growth is contagious.
Who is going to ride these streetcars? Where are they going?
I was talking to a friend who said that a big goal for the streetcar is to have the line reach XU.
That'd be really cool. The only thing I'd be worried about is having too many stops so it would take an hour to get to downtown. There's no reason to have many stops between XU and UC.
In addition, there's some talk about having a light rail line start at XU and wind through Hyde Park and eastern part of the county. The rail line is already there.
I think thats the plan in later phases. I know Covington and Newport want it extended into their cities as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38
I'm going to ride the streetcars. I'm 24 and a hyde park resident. If I could take a street car or a light rail to mt adams, downtown, or newport, I would go there a lot more often.
The streetcar isn't going to all of a sudden turn Cincinnati into a mass transit, but its a step in the right direction. You cant just all of a sudden build a state of the art, efficient, cheap, and useful system to completely overhaul the way people get around day to day.
You want better access to I-75? Ok, we'll build I-275. Its a foundation. You have to start somewhere. Otherwise, we'll end up like Cleveland.
Guy - I've been wanting that east side light rail ever since it was hinted about in the whole Metro Moves campaign. I recall that one started out as CVG airport to downtown, to XU to hyde park, finally ending up at Kings Island.
Why in god's name would you want a streetcar that extended to XU? What demographic would you be going after there........under 21 with little to no disposable income?Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38
A core of the riders will be new downtown residents. They will not own cars, or will have fewer cars than drivers in a household, and will use public transit to get to work, stores, restaurants and shopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
It may seem incomprehensible to you, but not everyone wants to live in the burbs. There is a growing part of the younger population that is attracted to life without a car.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010012301549
There is an existing population that can't drive that does not consider Cincinnati a viable option for living. I have two friends, one who is legally blind and one who is subject to occasional seizures, that have moved away from their home town because it's not possible to live in Cincinnati without a car.Quote:
Federal data released Friday underscore a striking national shift: 30.7 percent of 16-year-olds got their licenses in 2008, compared with 44.7 percent in 1988. The difference is even sharper in Virginia and Maryland, state figures show. Numbers from the District, which go back to 2003, show a decline in the past two years.
When you extend the line into Clifton, you attach a significant college campus and employment center to downtown.
The streetcar will also be able to take advantage of the Transit Center under the Freedom Center. Bus routes can become more efficient if they can enter and leave the downtown area without having to do a loop through the business district. I can hop off the bus and grab a streetcar that can get me through the core of the city in minutes.
I've answered a number of questions about the streetcar to program skeptics. I wonder if you'd answer these for me:
1) Do you believe downtown can grow, or even maintain its current state without investment? (I guess question 1a should be, Do you care?)
2) Given $100 million dollars, what investment programs would you propose?
I am a 100% believer in that downtown needs to continue the investments that are currently going on in order to rebuild an urban core. I am a proponent of the investment in the streetcar, but mostly because currently it's the best idea out there. I could be talked into changing my mind and supporting a better investment idea if one is out there. I'm willing to be convinced.
Convince me.
Here goes.
I don't believe in spending millions in tax dollars on a project that will lose money so it will primarily benefit of chosen few (people who live downtown). Furthermore, downtown is about 6 by 10 blocks, meaning most everything is in walking distance. (I walked 8 blocks to the courthouse this morning so it can be done).
As for my proposal for the $100 million of "investment", I state the following:
1) It's not an "investment"; it's taxpayer expenditures. We have a city that is broke and can't pay future pensions. Despite this apparent insolvency, we want to spend millions to help a select few on a project that will cost more taxpayer money in the future. We also want money from the federal government, who is also in debt to the tune of $13 trillion. In short, we can't afford to keep paying for these projects. If it were such a great idea that would earn a profit, then private industry would do it. Private industry wouldn't get near this project.
2) What I would do with the $100 million? I would give it back to the taxpayers. They know what to do with their money way more than the government. How many millions have been "invested" in Macy's and Sax so we can have the "necessity" of downtown shopping? Private industry seems to be doing a pretty good job of opening new restaurants and bars downtown. But if I had to spend the money, I would spend it on security, police and parking. We saw what happened to Main Street after people became afraid of going there.
Trolleys are a nice idea, if some private company wanted to spend their own money doing it. Instead, they will be built with taxpayer (AKA other's) money. And they will benefit a select few, will have limited interest and ridership, and will lose money requiring more taxpayer subsidies.
KK,
My solution to revitalising down town was to build a light rail, similar to an el -subway combined. I say WAS because I have many of the same serious questions today that I had 20-30-40-50 years ago when there were alleged plans to revitalise the West End and establish Queens Gate as the new upscale living area for young professionals.
Now I wonder:
1)How many people in Greater Cincinnati actually work down town and how many work close to where they live in the suburbs in office parks or by computer from home?
2)How many people from the suburbs in the City of Cincinnati shop at Krogers or other markets down town? Are there any Krogers or Remke or other markets down town? Even in Hyde Park or Avondale or Westwood or College Hill, are people able to take public conveyance to and from the grocery? How would they schlep five or six bags filled with groceries home?
3) How many restaurants of quality are there in down town Cincinnati?
How many movie theaters are there down town? How do the attractions at Newport On the Levee or other Northern Kentucky venues compare to Cincinnati? How many hotel rooms are there in down town Cincinnati proper???
4)Before I would even attempt to offer a plan for the future, I'd need answers to those and many other questions. Which brings up an even more interesting question: How many grandiose development plans have there been for down town revitalisation in the last 40, 30, 20, 10 years? How much money has been spent on those plans and how have the plans and proposals succeeded?
My overall point here is to show that Cincinnati city fathers have over those 40-50 years:
1)Solved our transit problems by eliminating street cars, and trolley buses in the late 40s early 50s, torn up the tracks, removed the overhead electric lines, abandoned subway construction and solved the low ridership problems by raising fares, jacking up rates at parking garages and meters and in general inadvertently promoted and sped up the growth of and flight to the suburbs.
Again, as has been pointed out on occasion on this topic, why not restore the entire street car system or build an el or subway or whatever instead of a limited route that caters primarily to those corporations or individuals who own property along the proposed route?
Why, if the redevelopment of down town is so important to the growth of the Greater Cincinnati area, as vital to keeping the few companies that are in down town Cincinnati there, is there not some attempt or plan for linking Hyde Park, Walnut Hills, Mt. Auburn, Mt. Adams, Coreyville, Clifton, Madisonville, Madison Place, Oakley, Mt. Washington, Western Hills, Avondale, Bond Hill, College Hill, Finneytown, et al with the proposed area to be revitalised?
The answer is the same as when the decision was made to put Great American Ball Park on the river in the wedge instead of at Broadway Commons. Not enough grease was smeared on the owners of property there.
I am not against revitalising the down town area, but I am against another short-sighted pipe dream that has a huge chance of following other such proposals, down the proverbial drain.:D
So, to sum up, your competing idea is "nothing". Let your federal tax dollars go to another community. Let people continue to leave the Cincinnati area, don't attract new businesses or residents, so your share of the unfunded pension liability is even bigger.
I'll risk the streetcar. I already know how your plan turns out.
I find is interesting that you point out that "Private industry seems to be doing a pretty good job of opening new restaurants and bars downtown". Where are all those restaurants and bars going? Around the newly redeveloped fountain square. A perfect example of public infrastructure dollars attracting private investment.
I also don't buy your "relative few" argument for who the streetcar benefits. New businesses and residents (the kind with jobs) benefit everyone because of the increased tax base.
Moreover, a vast majority of the capital expenditures in a typical budget year benefit far fewer than a public transportation system does. Here are some examples from the 09-10 budget:
~$8,000,000 for renovations to the Ohio Veterans Home in Sandusy, Ohio. This is a 427 bed nursing home.
~$21,000,000 for renovations at Miami University, including $6.5 million on Laws Hall alone. The entire school is less than 16,000 students.
And the final winning argument :
" If it were such a great idea that would earn a profit, then private industry would do it. Private industry wouldn't get near this project."
So, you're against highways, public utilities, police and fire departments? None of these ideas turn a profit and private industry isn't going after any of these.
The streetcar itself is not intended to turn a profit any more than the street in front of your office or the traffic light at the intersection does. Or for that matter, the Ohio Veterans Home or Laws Hall at Miami.
Q and 87, what is your take on the success or not of the revamping of Fountain Square?
Theyve decided on a route to uptown..
Vine street
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics...for-streetcar/
Kahns, I'm going to have to agree with Q on this one. You are making good arguments but you're not selling me.
Q is right about the city throwing money at Saks and other retailers in the name of 'bringing people downtown'.
In the City of Cincinnati department stores are so 50's. Outdated.
I like what Cleveland did years ago and built a downtown mall. Don't have any idea how it's doing now but years ago I thought it was a great idea. Gave us out of towners a place to go, spend money, drink and eat, until the game started or it was time to go out on the town.
Q is right about the restaurants. There are a few in quality. The Masonette closed its doors. Got tired of the pan handlers right outside their door and couldn't do anything about it.
Q is right about movie theatres or other family entertainment. Newport on the levy should be envied. With 4 kids, the restaraunts on the levy are more my style, the IMAX is a place to take the family, the aquarium is a place the kids enjoy.
And talking about greasing hands....the only reason the Streetcar project is going through is because of the Casino's. Bring people downtown to gamble their money away. Not quite family entertainment in my book.
From Q's post...
"I am not against revitalising the down town area, but I am against another short-sighted pipe dream that has a huge chance of following other such proposals, down the proverbial drain."
Examples
- Macy's
- Saks was a waste of money.
- The Freedom Center is a money pit and a morgue.
- The Bengals stadium is the worst deal in NFL history except for Mike Brown.
Kahn's if you will.....what Newport on the Levy ideas are sucking up tax payer dollars?
From Kahns post....(I'm sorry but this is weak. You seriously think that anyone really thinks that Q is against any of these)
"So, you're against highways, public utilities, police and fire departments? None of these ideas turn a profit and private industry isn't going after any of these. "
The fact of the matter is that while city council was approving the Streetcar project, they were at the same time (in Dec)ready to lay off 30 or 40 police officers.
Kahn's you know I don't normally rag on ya, but I'm just not buying your argument.
The residents of Hyde Park, Mount Lookout, Newtown, Mariemount, Milford, etc... all seem to be a little more progressive than your average metro area resident. I think they will really get behind this light rail.Quote:
Originally Posted by coasterville95
I think it would be great for X. Outside of Dana's, there isn't much opportunity for fun outside of X's campus. I would have loved it, as a student, to be able to jump on the streetcar every once in a while to explore downtown, drink, and get home safely.Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet16
Also, I'd imagine a streetcar would be good for the development around X. Perhaps families will park at X, enjoy some new restaurants, and take the streetcar downtown. Or perhaps some downtown residents will take the ride up to X for some shopping/bar hopping. It would give the development projects around X and edge over Rookwood.
I'm being picky, but what genius decided to use a map with McMillan spelled wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes37
I don't really know how I feel about the streetcar, but I do think that there are a lot of solid restaurants and bars downtown these days. When I have been out eating and drinking downtown at night it has been a pretty vibrant scene with a lot of people around. You have Morton's, Ruby's, Palomino, Via Vite, Rock Bottom, Black Finn, Bootsy's, Nada, McCormick and Schmick, and several more places to get food. If you want to go out drinking you have Black Finn, Lodge Bar, Mynt, Bartini's, Righteous Room, Nicholsons, Cadillac Ranch, and probably several others that I am missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADXSTER
All those places are easily and safely walkable from fountain square. You can park in the fountain square garage and bar and restaurant hop all night if you want to.
What I am not as sure about is whether or not new businesses will pop up along the route if the streetcar gets built. The current economic environment is a tough one to start a business in.
MadX,
I don't know the ins and outs of the Macys and Saks deals do make any judgement on the return on those investments. I do know that those are specific business incentives, and should be judged on an entirely different scale than transit infrastructure projects. The Freedom Center is a political correctness debacle that deserves its own discussion, but I'm certainly no fan of that thing. The stadium is a county project.
Why not use an city infrastructure project to compare to? The revival of the Fountain Square and garage has drawn an estimated $125 million in investment around the square. That is a recent example of public dollars spent on an infrastructure project that has encouraged private investment in the surrounding area.
Your comment that there aren't quality restaurants downtown makes me wonder when you were last downtown. And in all honesty, with 4 kids, you aren't necessarily the demographic the streetcar is looking to attract.
Seriously. That is embarrasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Muskie
Well, no I don't think that Q is against any of those things. I was actually responding to 87. I don't believe 87 is against those things either, but I was responding to an argument that the streetcar can't be a good idea because if it was, private industry would have already done it. My response simply reminds everyone that profitibility is not a standard for public projects.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADXSTER
As far as laying off the police officers, that is an operating expense. A big reason they have to lay off those officers is because the tax base is shrinking. The tax base is shrinking because Cincinnati doesn't attract young people, and families head for the suburbs.
If you want to accelerate that process, a great way would be to raid the capital budget to pay for operating expenses.
Sort of useless to debate the need/logic of building the streetcar at this point. It's a done deal. It's coming to Cincinnati and it's a start.
Personally, I wanted what I've experienced in Atlanta, Chicago, New York. I wanted a subway downtown moving up to light rail going out towards the burbs. But every time they tried to get that to pass, somebody with their head in the sand shouted it down saying we didn't need to waste tax dollars.
Deals like Saks and Macys are completely different, as they were tax breaks and not infrastructure investments. City council members were acting out of desperation. They did save jobs, just not as many they would have liked for as long as they would have liked.
The Freedom Center was railroaded by Rob Portman in a move that he somehow felt would transform the racial problems our community experiences. He doesn't talk about it now as one of his accomplishments for a reason. Aside from all the private sympathy money they raked out of companies and people like Oprah, how community leaders allowed this to actually happen I'll never understand, since this is one of the most poorly planned facilities I've ever seen. If you're going to build something that big on valuable Real estate, let's see some detailed plans. Forget about whether you agree with the premise, they have no decent model for making an income there. No cafe, no kitchen, no rotating exhibition space, no planned out rental spaces...all things that when done right keep visitors coming back to experience new things. They learned about these grave errors within the first five months.
It's completely different from the streetcar project, which is bolstered by federal dollars--that are going to go to some community whether you like it or not--to build infrastructure that serves a wide region of the community and connects the two largest areas of employment in Greater Cincinnati. (Downtown and Clifton) I'm glad they figured out how to invest the money here. It's not overspending. It's smart spending.
The project, even before the thing is built, is sparking major deals. Read the article I originally linked to. There are people lining up for the investment opportunities. There are existing businesses that looking into improving their space in anticipation of more people coming through. Will the streetcar run profitably? No, no form of mass transit does. But this investment will bring in more residents and people spending dollars at businesses along the route, which adds to the tax base and helps pay for core city services.
Is this the best option? No way. But I'm glad it's finally happening, because the longer nothing like this happened the worse it was going to be where these areas saw no investment. That just kills off the urban core and the out communities will eventually suffer.
Oh, and Downtown is actually about 10 blocks by 10 blocks and adding the OTR and Mt. Auburn sections make much much bigger. This is going to give the city such an advantage when trying to land conventions (bringing in big money), not to mention just make that whole area more attractive to live in. Once Kroger rebuilds there at the top of the line, how huge will that be for people who could ride the street car?
I'm optimistic.
What Sirthought said...
As far as laying off the police officers, that is an operating expense.
KK, tell that to a young, enthusiastic police officer just hired or with little seniority who has just been laid off and has no idea when, or even if he'll get his job back.
Yes, it's an operating expense, but I was pointing out the numerous times in the past when money was lavished on something of little benefit to the community--like Saks--and the real needs of the community were never even addressed. Jobs from Saks? Oh, hell, never mind.
But it might surprise you to know some of the payments you and I and everyone in Cincinnati and Hamilton County make every month for Riverfront Stadium that has long since gone over the rainbow.
Sometimes when I think back to some of the hard news stories I tried to write but had squashed by a publisher (pre-Post) I'm glad I got into sports where the worst thing I ever had to deal with was the NCAA. If you think city and county government--all three parties if you consider the Charterites more than Ninth St. Republicans--was somewhere between ineffective and just plain corrupt as far as conflict of interest was and is concerned, it would pale compared to the misadventures of our local state university and its athletic programs over the years. But that's another pissing contest.
You know, it's one thing to despise the behavior of a spoiled child, but quite another to ask how he, she, or it got that way. It's one thing to dislike Mike Brown, but quite another to stop and think we,--me included-- who through our elected Hamilton County officials made the deals with him for PBS . We as Hamilton County residents vote for that sales tax increase that failed to take into consideration there might also be bad times ahead. It's sort of like a bride and a groom who forget the part of the ceremony where each promise make their promises to love in good times and in bad...
I really think that is what makes us so mad at Mike Brown. We, through our politicians, gave Mike, Katie, Paul A., Nancy and Pete and Troy and all the other members of the Bengals family that 63,000-seat monument on the Ohio River. And our kids will still be paying for it long after we shuffle. So maybe the next time we want to vent against that evil genius or whatever you want to call Mike at the time, stop and look in the mirror and reflect on that vote, no matter what it was.
:logo::shield::sword:
Q, the math is really quite simple, emotional pleas aside. The City is $50 million in the hole in its General Fund. The General Fund is comprised of something like 70-80% police and fire expenditures (ie. payroll, ie. police and fire jobs). There is no more fat left to cut outside of police and fire, so we don't have any other options but to cut police and fire jobs. Or we could raise taxes by $50 million, yeah I'm sure that would be popular with the Council members and the public. We actually have a higher police officer ratio per capita than any other city in the United States, so the policy solution is really pretty cut and dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by wkrq59
The streetcar will have a limited impact on the City's General Fund deficit. TIF, one-time federal & state grants, and Capital funds are the streetcar construction sources, and none of these are dollars that we would want to "return to taxpayers". Those funds are designated for economic development investment.
And I'm sorry, but the Bengals stadium debacle and the Freedom Center have absolutely zero relevance to this discussion that I can see, unless there is something I'm missing.
And therein lies part of my argument. If we get our streetcars, Miami gets their building, and Kentucky gets their new courthouse, and Missouri gets their new bike trail, and New York gets their new ...... And it goes on and on until one day we realize that our federal government is $13 trillion in debt and our city leaders are trying to figure ot how to pay for the upside down pension plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy
Yet we keep spending more and more taxpayer money on relatively worthless projects which benefit a select few people. It's wrong.
I would have no problem facing that young, enthusiastic officer and explaining that the reason he's being laid off is a declining tax base, and that the best hope for building the police force back up is to attract new tax paying businesses and residents, not to raid the capital fund to delay the inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by wkrq59
Why aren't you outraged at the $10 million dollars of capital funding that went to rehab the Ohio Veterans Home during a time they were laying off police officers? What about the $14 million that went to the Central State Student activity center? Those are your tax dollars. Central State has 2,171 students. Why is the outrage only aimed at the dollars that are actually being spent in our city to develop our city to the benefit of all of the city residents?
That is an entirely different argument, one which we are in much closer agreement on. However, I don't want Cincinnati to stand on principle and refuse to take advantage of the dollars that are being spent, because they're being spent one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
Again, if you want to incentivize new business why not first reduce the tax and regulatory burden rather than shell out millions which must be borrowed for an uncertain infrastructure project? They have such a mixed record.
But if you still insist on proceeding and they are true to their name, you should start selling the Most Valuable Kids for funding.
So how or when does it stop? How can one complain about Alaska's "Bridge to Nowhere" when that person wants federal money for a trollley? The attitude now is, "I know our government is going to spend taxpayer money like crazy so I at least want my share."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy
We can't keep up this mindless spending on local pet projects.
There's only so much the city has control over when it comes to incenting new business to come to the city, and one of the biggest complaints from business is that Cincinnati doesn't have the young professional residential base to hire from. Would you locate your business in an area that doesn't have the right resources, incentives or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by American X
To be competitive, one of the things the city needs is more young professionals. In today's environment, more young professionals are seeking an urban lifestyle.
You shut off the flow at the dam. You don't stand down river with your hand in the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
Edit: I also disagree that the expenditure in this case is "mindless", but we've already covered that before.
I've also noticed that opponents of the streetcar like to refer to it by other names. Be it "choo-choo" , "traffic clogger", "Cinderella carriage" or "trolley", it's a pretty lame tactic to attempt to paint the proposal as something other than what it is.
Fine, but you can do more than one thing (not an either-or proposition). It seems more sensible to first take measures which do not require the large outlay of funds the city does not have. If you see a significant uptick, then proceed with the streetcar. It seems the streetcar is based more on hopeful wishes than viability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy
The city only has so much control? Um, the city controls the zoning, licensing, taxation, etc...