Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Brew, I've got to disagree.
The basic premise of Mahr's video is that Democrats are somehow responsible for what the far left comes up with.
Defund the police is a great example; Dem leaders don't espouse or support that. But somehow they are responsible for it. Then when the far right comes up with its nonsense, why shouldn't Republicans be saddled with it?
Yet they get a pass. "There are good people on both sides."
The Stop the Count is from Roger Stone 4 years ago. Fermented on the web through Bannon and Breitbart, and resulting in millions not trusting our process.
And Republicans, in office, support it...including the president.

Your point carries "both sideism" way to far.
I haven't delved into your friends situation in Florida. If he has the ability to organize statistics, that shouldn't be anyone's problem if that's all he does.
But you wouldn't get on a commercial 747 and have a guy take the controls who never flew a plane.
There needs to be some requirement of proficiency to give a guy a job.

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I think that the Bill Mahr video is spot on - Democrats have a lot of unlikeable people and behaviors associated with their party. While they haven't necessarily always embraced it, they haven't condemned it. I'm sure they are trying to walk a line between getting the voter turnout from the 'woke folks' and not turning off Middle America, but it isn't working. Messaging is reality, in many instances. Whether Democratic Leadership espouses the 'defund the Police' movement or not, they became associated with it. Same with Socialism and tax increases. Same with rioters is Portland and Antifa.

The Republicans do a fantastic job of marching in step with each other and carrying (mostly) the same message - notwithstanding some of the fringe alt-right nuts. They have guys making $60K a year who are absolutely berserk about the possibility of a minor tax increase on incomes above $400K. They have people who are literally reliant on government assistance voting to reduce the government assistance that they rely on to live (my Wife's Uncle is one of them).

The Republicans also have a great 'lifestyle brand' that appeals to a wide swath of their followers, and doesn't alienate the ones that it doesn't appeal to. If you like God, Guns, and low taxes with limited government the Republican party is your party. They are also the party of nostalgia vs. change, and change scares people (especially older people). As long as you aren't black, gay, or a woman (who wants to make her own decisions) the 1950's were awesome - who wouldn't want to go back? It was a period of almost unrivaled prosperity with a rapidly expanding middle class.

The Democrats don't really have an image or a clear story: They have Joe Biden as President who is pretty moderate, but they also have 'the squad', Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren. What is their actual party stance on Healthcare? What is their actual party stance on 'Socialism'?

Nuance and subtlety coupled with lack of clarity don't work well when you are trying to explain to 300MM people of varying backgrounds and educational levels the finer points of policy.

I do agree that the 'both sidesism' is a but unfair to the Democrats. The depth of the F'd up shit that Trump is doing while Republican leaders stand silently by should be a major issue for their party, but it isn't and the Democrats need to accept that and move on if they want to win elections.

Booze, I appreciate your post and framing of the discussions going on.
Have yet to figure out how you message against false claims successfully.
If someone says you are a socialist (and gets an echo chamber to broadcast it) how do you counteract that?
If you read the party platform, or listen to Biden, there's no effort to be a socialist.
Likewise on health care. What could be clearer than trying to work for healthcare for all our citizens?
The effort with the ACA led to countless votes to overturn it, and a case yet to be decided by the Supreme Court.
One party tried to get health care help for millions of Americans...and one party opposed those efforts.
Oh well.

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Booze, I appreciate your post and framing of the discussions going on.
Have yet to figure out how you message against false claims successfully.
If someone says you are a socialist (and gets an echo chamber to broadcast it) how do you counteract that?
If you read the party platform, or listen to Biden, there's no effort to be a socialist.
Likewise on health care. What could be clearer than trying to work for healthcare for all our citizens?
The effort with the ACA led to countless votes to overturn it, and a case yet to be decided by the Supreme Court.
One party tried to get health care help for millions of Americans...and one party opposed those efforts.
Oh well.

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Then they need to do a better job of explaining it to people. The fact that Bernie Sanders, in particular, has had such a loud voice in the last 2 primaries is a great example. He refers to himself as a Democratic Socialist. It doesn't take a lot to see how the Democrats then end up getting linked to Socialism.

Socialism is a tough concept because there is no clear definition - it generally exists on a sliding scale. Some 'Socialist' Countries are dramatically more free market than the others, etc. however the reality is that in the U.S. most people don't have a favorable opinion of Socialism.

What exactly is their plan on Healthcare? I get that I'm asking the Democrats to do more than the Republicans. For example the Republicans really have no clear message or plan on healthcare, even after 4 years of Trump claiming they where going to unveil the best Healthcare plan in History. However, the Democrats are the ones pushing change and pushing change is harder than convincing people that the Status Quo is just fine while creating fear of the unknown as a further dis-incentive to change. Healthcare for all should sound great - why doesn't everyone support it? What fears and concerns to people have that the Democrats need to assuage?

I'm not saying it's right - I'm saying that if Democrats want to win elections they need to improve messaging and education. They managed to (relatively narrowly all things considered) beat the worst President in modern history. They can't just say everybody in Middle America is uninformed and shrug their shoulders, as tempting as that may be at times.

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Have yet to figure out how you message against false claims successfully.
If someone says you are a socialist (and gets an echo chamber to broadcast it) how do you counteract that?
If you read the party platform, or listen to Biden, there's no effort to be a socialist.

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Using labels to describe an entire political party is never a good idea. However if I had to choose, would rather be called a socialist (political ideology) vs discrediting my character by calling me a racist, homophobic, and xenophobic. Maybe that’s just me.

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Booze, I appreciate your post and framing of the discussions going on.
Have yet to figure out how you message against false claims successfully.
If someone says you are a socialist (and gets an echo chamber to broadcast it) how do you counteract that?
If you read the party platform, or listen to Biden, there's no effort to be a socialist.
Likewise on health care. What could be clearer than trying to work for healthcare for all our citizens?
The effort with the ACA led to countless votes to overturn it, and a case yet to be decided by the Supreme Court.
One party tried to get health care help for millions of Americans...and one party opposed those efforts.
Oh well.

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We should always believe every politician, they never lie. I mean, biden hasnt been caught outright lying while in office.

Not sure if its been brought up here or not? I watched the "Social Dilemma" on NetFlix. An eye opener for sure. Scary stuff particularly when they discuss the issue of social media being able to control content, what you see and how its consumed by you. I for sure have had SM change my perspective on things and didn't even realize just how far right some of my opinions had drifted as a result. It's important to make sure you understand the facts of any particular topic, see both sides of an argument and position and RESPECT others and their opinion. Otherwise we are all going to continue to drift further apart from each other and continue to divide this great country.

I'm left to wonder what the reasoning is for continuing to dispute the results.
Is it for a grand plan of activity or some sort (tv show, etc.) after January?
Does he honestly believe he won?
It seems the reluctance is costing us, in addressing necessary transition activities.
I know he can keep collecting money off of donors to pay down his debt, but then what? Will people buy hats next year?
It's all somewhat sad, and depressing, with the challenges facing the country.

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-c...ign=SocialFlow

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Originally Posted by bleedXblue

Not sure if its been brought up here or not? I watched the "Social Dilemma" on NetFlix. An eye opener for sure. Scary stuff particularly when they discuss the issue of social media being able to control content, what you see and how its consumed by you. I for sure have had SM change my perspective on things and didn't even realize just how far right some of my opinions had drifted as a result. It's important to make sure you understand the facts of any particular topic, see both sides of an argument and position and RESPECT others and their opinion. Otherwise we are all going to continue to drift further apart from each other and continue to divide this great country.

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I watched The Social Dilemma and then promptly deleted Facebook from my phone. After a few days they started sending me email on what I missed. I was never really a heavy user - I didn't comment much and mostly just used it to keep up on major life events for friends that I don't see often.

I actually think that more than almost any type of Media, Social Media is responsible for the most misinformation and division. It's literally breaking us a society. People aren't mean't to interact that way. It's also allowing for radicalization of people on both sides. It used to be that if you were crazy, or just an extreme misanthrope, society kind of forced you to act normal. There was never really any place with enough of a concentration of like minded individuals to really do anything too crazy. From time to time you'd get a Columbine situation where the wrong two people would get together and do something horrible, but it was pretty rare. Now people can get DEEP into some crazy rabbit holes and find tons of people to normalize their misguided thoughts and opinions, and find a community in which their thoughts can amplify. It happens with anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, anarchists, white supremacists, etc.

I'll give you a personal example: I play guitar, and have for years. About 7-8 years ago I treated myself to a Martin HD-28, which is a nice guitar that costs close to $3K new. I thought I was pretty close to the top of the food chain from a guitar perspective. That was a nice guitar that I had coveted for years! I then started frequenting guitar forums and found people who were paying $10K-$20K for guitars. Suddenly the $3K for the Martin didn't feel like such a splurge, and I started collecting more guitars. I've enjoyed the hell out of it - don't get me wrong, but finding that group of people definitely normalized (for me) and abnormal behavior.

Same thing happens for us and extreme degrees of Xavier fandom. Of course that is perfectly healthy :)

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Originally Posted by bleedXblue

Not sure if its been brought up here or not? I watched the "Social Dilemma" on NetFlix. An eye opener for sure. Scary stuff particularly when they discuss the issue of social media being able to control content, what you see and how its consumed by you. I for sure have had SM change my perspective on things and didn't even realize just how far right some of my opinions had drifted as a result. It's important to make sure you understand the facts of any particular topic, see both sides of an argument and position and RESPECT others and their opinion. Otherwise we are all going to continue to drift further apart from each other and continue to divide this great country.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

I watched The Social Dilemma and then promptly deleted Facebook from my phone. After a few days they started sending me email on what I missed. I was never really a heavy user - I didn't comment much and mostly just used it to keep up on major life events for friends that I don't see often.

I actually think that more than almost any type of Media, Social Media is responsible for the most misinformation and division. It's literally breaking us a society. People aren't mean't to interact that way. It's also allowing for radicalization of people on both sides. It used to be that if you were crazy, or just an extreme misanthrope, society kind of forced you to act normal. There was never really any place with enough of a concentration of like minded individuals to really do anything too crazy. From time to time you'd get a Columbine situation where the wrong two people would get together and do something horrible, but it was pretty rare. Now people can get DEEP into some crazy rabbit holes and find tons of people to normalize their misguided thoughts and opinions, and find a community in which their thoughts can amplify. It happens with anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, anarchists, white supremacists, etc.

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Mark Zuckerberg’s net worth increased by $8 billion the day after the election... but I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

Social Dilemma really opened my eyes. I never realized how profitable it is to monetize people’s anger.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

Same thing happens for us and extreme degrees of Xavier fandom. Of course that is perfectly healthy :)

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I blame Muskie for the rabbit hole we've all gone down chasing the elusive Final Four. He's like the Red Queen.