Streetcar Update on Development

Just having talked to someone who has a little knowledge about this, the government's own projections for this streetcar project are that, at best, the streetcar will generate around $1 million per year in revenue with starting operating costs of $3 million per year. Cincinnati is also issuing $65 million in bonds to pay for this. Those bonds have to be paid back, with interest.

So the city that can't pay its pensions goes $65 million more in debt with an operating deficit of at least $2 million per year.

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Originally Posted by XU 87

Just having talked to someone who has a little knowledge about this, the government's own projections for this streetcar project are that, at best, the streetcar will generate around $1 million per year in revenue with starting operating costs of $3 million per year. Cincinnati is also issuing $65 million in bonds to pay for this. Those bonds have to be paid back, with interest.

So the city that can't pay its pensions goes $65 million more in debt with an operating deficit of at least $2 million per year.

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But that's already been established. They know the operating costs are going to be around $3 mil a year. They hope ridership fares, sponsorship, city revenues, and assessments/improvement districts will help put a dent in that operating cost before we have to help maintain it through taxes. Fountain square redevelopment was an extremely unpopular idea not too long ago. Should we not have done it? Here is the ultimate goal:

"Mostly by reducing the burden of parking on central city redevelopment. Plus, it will improve safety by putting more people on the sidewalks 18 hours a day. This, is turn, will improve street-level retail in the area served by the streetcar, making it more attractive to live there, a sort of virtuous cycle if you will. These are well-documented effects in other cities with modern streetcars." (Protransit.com)

The key is the development around the area to increase the tax base as Kahn pointed out. Public transportation by its definition is not profitable which is why no private company will touch it anymore. But there is a reason 46 other cities are planning and fighting for money to bring systems to their city. Its the economic development as evidenced by other cities with vintage and modern streetcars.

When the streetcar line opened in Portland, no one thought anyone would ride those either. Tri-Met, the light rail agency, wanted nothing to do with them. Now Portland's streetcar carries more riders per track-mile than Portland's light rail system does.

Here are just some of the reasons I like this plan.
1) It will serve more residents along the line than any other modern streetcar in the United States did on its opening day. (Cincinnati - 20,038, Seattle - 19,977, Portland - 15,849, Tacoma - 2,924) . Roughly Half(Approximately 48%) of the households in the Census tracts along the Cincinnati Streetcar line have zero cars. Forty-seven per cent of the passengers are expected to have an income of less than $20,000 per year. In addition to that, Cincinnati's 6 mile first phase will be the longest first phase of any modern streetcar system in the US
2) 92 acres of parking lots along the route prime for development
3) The gateway quarter is starting to take off. http://www.soapboxmedia.com/devnews/...rofliving.aspx
4) Connecting our two biggest employment areas
5) The attractions/places along or right near the line (UC, The Banks, Fountain Sqaure, Aronoff, etc)
6) The studies http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/...reetcar/(There is a new economic impact study that was just completed on Aug 23. The results are still impressive though not as high as the one in 2007 but still impressive).
7) There are 6 fortune 500 companies( Procter and Gamble, Macy’s, Kroger, Western and Southern, Fifth Third, and American Financial) along the route. That would be more than all the other modern streetcar systems in the US combined before (Seattle - 1 - Nordstrom, Portland - 0, Tacoma - 0)
8) The casino developers are watching it very closely and have offered their support behind it. http://www.wlwt.com/money/24664655/detail.html.

Casino chiefs are also watching plans for the city's streetcar very closely, hoping that the two projects will dovetail nicely.
"We really are going to set the bar for an urban casino. I mean, there will be nothing like it in the United States," Cullen said.
9) Massive amount of people attending events downtown.
11,903,450 is the number of visitors per year to attractions along the Cincinnati Streetcar.
(Sports and Activities- 2,959,563, Fountain Square Events- 2,000,000, Libraries and Museums- 1,625,576, Festivals- 1,335,541, Cincinnati Zoo- 1,218,892, Arts Events- 940,019, Findlay Market- 758,053, Duke Energy Convention Center- 650,000
University of Cincinnati Sports- 415,806)
These figures do not include visitors to US Bank Arena, the thousands of visitors to art galleries in Over-the-Rhine or people who visit the area solely for shopping, dining or nightlife. In addition to the 11.9 million visitors a year that currently visit attractions along the streetcar line, new attractions will be open by the time the Cincinnati Streetcar, including:

Casino- 6,000,000 (proj.)
Central Riverfront Park- 1,100,000 (proj.)
Current Visitors (As of 2009)- 11,903,450
Total projected 2013 Visitors- 19,003,450
10) Since 2007, $264.8 million of projects have been completed in the center city, $1,32 billion of construction is underway and an additional $909.9 million of development is planned. 827 residential units have been built near the line and an additional 425 units are under construction. Again like Kahn said, its will simply add to the momentum.


Sorry for the length, I do not expect it to see results like Portland, but I expect it to considerably help out

I just don't see the wisdom in spending $65 million on a project which your own own projections show will lose a minmum of $2 million per year. This is particularly true when the revenues, at best, are expected to be 33% of costs. Only government would operate under that business model.

After we get our perpetually money losing streetcars, I next look forward to the "high speed" rail that will take 6 hours to get from Cincinnati to Cleveland. And that doesn't include the time to get to and from the station.

It doesn't appear to matter if these projects make economic sense; we build with the hope that "if we build it they will ride". And similar to other public transportation (Amtrak for example) after it loses millions (or billions) per year, we'll just get the taxpayers (us) to pick up the tab.

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Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy

The streetcar will also be able to take advantage of the Transit Center under the Freedom Center.

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The Transit Center is another example of government wasting taxpayer money. How many millions were spent on that project? And does it get any use?

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Originally Posted by XU 87

The Transit Center is another example of government wasting taxpayer money. How many millions were spent on that project? And does it get any use?

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Actually I don't believe the streetcar will use the transit center at all.

However, urbancincy had a good article on the "hidden assets" of the transit center recently

http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/07/hi...ns-of-dollars/

Very interesting read

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Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy

In 1980, Seattle and Cincinnati had about the same city population. In 2010, Seattle boasts approximately 617,000 residents to Cincinnati's 352,000. Seattle has a long running commitment to transit solutions, including street cars and light rail, and has enjoyed a huge increase in mass transit ridership during a time that Cincinnati is seeing decreases and higher fares to offset lost revenues.

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Seattle and Cincinnati have vastly different geography, economics and demographics.

The White City

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity1.png

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In fact, not one of these “progressive” cities even reaches the national average for African American percentage population in its core county. Perhaps not progressiveness but whiteness is the defining characteristic of the group.

The progressive paragon of Portland is the whitest on the list, with an African American population less than half the national average. It is America's ultimate White City. The contrast with other, supposedly less advanced cities is stark.

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This raises troubling questions about these cities. Why is it that progressivism in smaller metros is so often associated with low numbers of African Americans? Can you have a progressive city properly so-called with only a disproportionate handful of African Americans in it? In addition, why has no one called these cities on it?

[B]As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large.[/B] Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip? Many of the policies of Portland are not that dissimilar from those of upscale suburbs in their effects. Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable exactly the same as large lot zoning and building codes that mandate brick and other expensive materials do. They both contribute to reducing housing affordability for historically disadvantaged communities. Just like the most exclusive suburbs.

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In fact, lack of ethnic diversity may have much to do with what allows these places to be “progressive”. It's easy to have Scandinavian policies if you have Scandinavian demographics.

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If I was in Seattle or Portland I would jump on the streetcar. I heard the trains in Utah are super clean and fun to get around on. It doesn't surprise me.

Cincinnatians mostly don't like public transportation as it is. We are going to put the streetcar right through Over The Rhine, which is arguably our most violent crime ridden neighborhood. How many people are going to want to jump on the trolley?

How long before someone catches bed bugs on the trolley. They are already spraying the buses and some have been pulled out of service because of bed bugs. In Britian a study found that on average every train compartment contained 200 bed bugs. Sounds like paradise.

It is folly to think that what works in Seattle or Portland will work in Cincinnati. I rode the train when I was up in Cleve Land. I was the only person on the thing. What if we build it and they don't come?

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Originally Posted by wkrq59

Just curious. Why do we need a street car that provides limited stops, uphill routes that are at best a traffic clogger, ? Why do we need a street car line that will have to have its operating costs subsidised or if they aren't, it will cost too damned much to ride?.
If it were a mass transit system such as a subway or el that could move people to and from downtown to various communities, it would make sense. But a street car line which is nothing more than a Cinderella's carriage that will supposedly invigorate redevelopment of the Over the Rhine area and Clifton or Vine Street Hill areas??? It's ridiculous.
Hey, maybe we should save the money and give it to the poor!!! Now that's a novel idea that's older than the hills on which the line will be built.:(

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The short answer is that downtown DOES NOT need this at all. It will lose money and after the the initial newness wears off, very few will ride it.

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Originally Posted by _LH

The short answer is that downtown DOES NOT need this at all. It will lose money and after the the initial newness wears off, very few will ride it.

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Ultimate proof that the Streetcar is a winner... LH is against it.

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Originally Posted by Snipe

Seattle and Cincinnati have vastly different geography, economics and demographics.

The White City

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity1.png



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If I was in Seattle or Portland I would jump on the streetcar. I heard the trains in Utah are super clean and fun to get around on. It doesn't surprise me.

Cincinnatians mostly don't like public transportation as it is. We are going to put the streetcar right through Over The Rhine, which is arguably our most violent crime ridden neighborhood. How many people are going to want to jump on the trolley?

How long before someone catches bed bugs on the trolley. They are already spraying the buses and some have been pulled out of service because of bed bugs. In Britian a study found that on average every train compartment contained 200 bed bugs. Sounds like paradise.

It is folly to think that what works in Seattle or Portland will work in Cincinnati. I rode the train when I was up in Cleve Land. I was the only person on the thing. What if we build it and they don't come?

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Let me ask you one simple question. If you had the disposable income to buy a four-story building in OTR that was directly adjacent to a streetcar stop and that building was zoned residential/commercial and the building could be had for next to nothing and the building was in one of the worst sections of Vine.......would you do it?

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Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy

Ultimate proof that the Streetcar is a winner... LH is against it.

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I am concerned that streetcars will be a haven for steroid users.