Streetcar Update on Development

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Originally Posted by XU 87

Is there a bus that goes from Clifton to downtown? How many people ride that? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how many people will ride the streetcar?

How many people will go to a Reds game and then catch a streetcar at 10:30 P.M. to go to Clifton via OTR? If you're out of college and living Downtown, you're probably not partying in Clifton. Likewise, if you're a UC student, you're probably not partying downtown. And if your 23 year old daughter told you she was taking the streetcar with her girlfriends at 10:30 p.m. from downtown to Clifton via OTR, would you tell her to take a cab instead?

Why would someone drive downtown to catch a streetcar to get to the Zoo? Why wouldn't they just drive straight to the Zoo?

Most people that work downtown drive. The rest catch a bus. Why wouldn't those people drive or catch a bus if they want to go to Clifton? For that matter, and noted above, who are all these people that live and work downtown who have this great need to go to Clifton? I work downtown. I sometimes like to tip a few after work. But Clifton is not a happy hour destination for downtown workers. Very few downtown workers are going to ride a streetcar to Clifton, drink for an hour (or eat in Clifton) and then ride a streetcar back to downtown so they can get their car to drive home.

If someone works in Clifton, why take a streetcar to get downtown? Are you then going to take the streetcar back to get your car parked in Clifton? Sounds like a long time to eventually get home.

Now I hope I'm wrong. I hope the streetcar does everything you predict it will do. It would be great for the city if your predictions come true. But I just don't see it happening. And I think we're going to waste a lot of money now and in the future on this project.

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Damn it 87, spot on again!

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Originally Posted by XU 87

Is there a bus that goes from Clifton to downtown? How many people ride that? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how many people will ride the streetcar?

How many people will go to a Reds game and then catch a streetcar at 10:30 P.M. to go to Clifton via OTR? If you're out of college and living Downtown, you're probably not partying in Clifton. Likewise, if you're a UC student, you're probably not partying downtown. And if your 23 year old daughter told you she was taking the streetcar with her girlfriends at 10:30 p.m. from downtown to Clifton via OTR, would you tell her to take a cab instead?

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UC students do actually party downtown a good amount but that is not enough business/traffic to justify a street car. And there is a shuttle that goes from Clifton to Mt. Adams and downtown for UC students only. I believe it gets moderate use, but again not enough to justify a streetcar.

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Originally Posted by _LH

As much as I hate to agree with 87, this post above is spot on.

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LH agrees with me. I am declaring victory and moving on.

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Originally Posted by XU 87

LH agrees with me. I am declaring victory and moving on.

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I guess that's one way to go. Another may be, oh god, LH agrees with me, I need to completely re-evaluate my priorities and completely ignore every urge towards common sense and good judgement I've ever had.

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Originally Posted by sweet16

I guess that's one way to go. Another may be, oh god, LH agrees with me, I need to completely re-evaluate my priorities and completely ignore every urge towards common sense and good judgement I've ever had.

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My sarcasm didn't come through very well.

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Originally Posted by sweet16

I guess that's one way to go. Another may be, oh god, LH agrees with me, I need to completely re-evaluate my priorities and completely ignore every urge towards common sense and good judgement I've ever had.

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He had it right the first time. Sorry you are unable to see these things more clearly Sweet.

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Originally Posted by _LH

As much as I hate to agree with 87, this post above is spot on.

And yes, downtown is a ghost town after 5:30 most week nights as a whole. Sure some small pockets have some people going to happy hour but as a whole very few people are down there after standard business hours during the week.

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I don't think you're downtown very often. There are events downtown nearly every night of the week. I've been downtown at least a dozen times over the last couple months, between live music (both on the square and in bars), Octoberfest, Beerfest, Fireworks, meeting friends for happy hours, dinners out, Reds games, Bengals games, the UC game. I don't even work downtown. I've also ridden the bus downtown and back at least 5 times in the last month. Contrary to what many people say, the busses I have been on have been at least half full every time, and these are weekend routes.

Downtown is not a ghost town. Downtown 15 years ago was a ghost town. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it. Anytime anyone tells me there isn't anything going on downtown might as well just admit they're not paying attention to what is going on downtown.

Even so - and pardon me for sounding like a broken record - the streetcar is not designed to simply serve the existing downtown population or businesses. In order to be a success, the area around the streetcar will need to change. The vacant lots and empty buildings on Race and Elm between 14th and Findlay need an enormous amout of private investment to make that area a lively, safe neighborhood. We're also about to drop a Casino in right on the fringe of downtown. The current streetcar route doesn't include a loop to the casino, but you can bet that the casino operator is going to want a way to tie into it, and the city should want a way to tie into the casino crowd. I seriously can't see a completed streetcar route that ignores the casino, and if it does, I would consider that a failure.

Before the funding was starting to line up, I said I was in favor of the streetcar, assuming there was sizable chunk of skin in the game from private developers. I don't see that piece yet, and that causes me some concern. I'd like to see some of that come on board quickly. I hope that's what Sirthought was talking about, referring to a lot of interest in the property along the route.

Certain arguments against the streetcar frustrate me. Citing the cost in absence of context is one. Yes, we're looking at funding a capital cost in excess of $100 million. That is an enormous number. Yes, it is expected to operate at an annual loss, requiring an ongoing subsidy of $2 million. Frankly, I'd like to see the streetcar have a nominal (25 cent) fare, and have that subsidy be closer to $3 million. Those are huge numbers, but if you ignore the benefits, you're only looking at half of the equation. The costs will be offset by increases in property values that drive increased property taxes. Increases in revenues from businesses along the line will generate sales tax revenue as well as create new jobs. Increased occupied owned and rental properties generate increased payroll taxes and income taxes from the property owners. Moreover, reversing the population decline in the city is absolutely critical if we are ever to recover from looming issues like pensions in debt and increasing public service costs.

Ancedotal stories about improbable streetcar use are rediculous too. "Is someone going to drive downtown to take a streetcar to the zoo?" Well, of course not. I don't see anyone arguing that such a trip would ever take place. The streetcar isn't a park and ride. Downtown and Clifton Residents and employees and out of town visitors are the primary projected ridership for the streetcar. It doesn't need to be attractive to the average resident of West Chester to be a positive economic impact.

I'm downtown all the time and what I wrote is dead on true. There are some events around Fountain Square but for the most part the city is dead after 5:30 on a typical weeknight. Sorry.

Also learn to read. I know very well of the many events that take place downtown and there are certainly more now than 15 years ago but that IS NOT what I wrote. Fail on your part.

I'm also tired of people claiming if you build it, this or that will happen and that property values will increase or people will invest.

PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by _LH

I'm downtown all the time and what I wrote is dead on true. There are some events around Fountain Square but for the most part the city is dead after 5:30 on a typical weeknight. Sorry.

Also learn to read. I know very well of the many events that take place downtown and there are certainly more now than 15 years ago but that IS NOT what I wrote. Fail on your part.

I'm also tired of people claiming if you build it, this or that will happen and that property values will increase or people will invest.

PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I am curious what draws you downtown all the time after hours, apparently, alone?

There are things to do on the weekends for sure and a few things going on typical week days but not much.

To answer your question, I work long hours downtown and see it first hand every day.