Here's an article in which Rookwood talks about its move - they don't mention the streetcar very often.Quote:
Originally Posted by _LH
Rookwood Moves Downtown
Printable View
Here's an article in which Rookwood talks about its move - they don't mention the streetcar very often.Quote:
Originally Posted by _LH
Rookwood Moves Downtown
To be fair, there is actually NO mention of the potential streetcar as being a reason for moving there.Quote:
Originally Posted by xeus
But I can understand, after the fact, why Rookwood would want a streetcar. Building a streetcar requires someone else's money and it may bring a few people to the Rookwood facility. And even if it doesn't bring more people, it's still someone else's money.
So there's a report out that says that Cincinnati is at the bottom end of comparable cities in a number of desirable categories, both in terms of demographics and jobs. There is a problem with the current population of people and businesses.
All of the arguments I hear against the streetcar address how it will serve the current population. All of those arguments miss the point that is the reason I am for the streetcar :
There is a problem with the current population.
LH keeps talking about why the guy in Mason would drive down. I don't want a person who is willing to live in Mason to define the projects that take place in the center of my city. I want new blood coming into the city. I want people to consider moving to Cincinnati when they graduate from top schools. I want an area that combines living spaces, small and medium retail and business, recreation and cultural opportunities. I want it connected to the two biggest centers of employment in the city, and to be able to leverage future transportation opportunities.
In 2009 We put a new interchange on I-75 that cost $48 million. Who was against that?
I have no clue what is going on with this project, but when I moved from Denver this yr., they had 63,000+ daily riders on the light rail. The area I lived in wasn't serviced directly (had to drive a couple of miles) but had free parking. I took it every time I had somewhere to go DT including a lot of Rockies, Broncos and Nuggets games, the 16th St. mall, Cirque de Soleil, etc, etc. No parking fees direct to the door of wherever I was going. I miss it!~
Maybe the folks on here who are arguing the issue back and forth know a lot more of the details than I do about the future Cincinnati streetcars. I have no idea how many of them there will be, what their routes will be, and where and how often they will stop along said routes.
All I know is what I saw in Portland, Oregon when we were there. Their streetcar system was in constant use by large numbers of people. Downtown was bustling and restaurants were packed. If streetcars were at all responsible for creating any of that impact on the City of Portland, then I can't wait until they come to Cincinnati.
I remember a lot of people on Muskie Message Boards decrying the naming of Chris Mack as Head Coach long before he spent a single day on that job. How has that turned out so far?
But I will say at this time that you just can't sit idly by and wait for some outside forces to make your City a better place to live, play, and work. You've got to invest in its improvement by using methods that have proven to work elsewhere. One can only hope that our system will be managed as well as streetcar systems are in places like Portland.
I'll withhold final judgment on the Cincinnati Streetcars until they are given a fair chance to create the desired effect on our economy and the vibrancy of the downtown and surrounding areas.
The people who live downtown, the people that work downtown, the people that live and or work in Clifton, the people that go to Reds, Bengals, US Bank events, the people that visit downtown for business, the people that visit for pleasure, eventually the people that live/work/play in and around the entire UC campus, the Cincinnati Zoo, and on and on as it expands, hopefully, to your neighborhood and mine. Streetcar users are not anti-bus. Streetcars are permanent, which has been shown to spur confidence in investors. As for walking distance, tell a young family with 3 kids under 5 years old to hike it from the Reds game to their brother's condo on 12th and Main or wherever. There's always people willing to wait ten minutes to save a ten or twenty minute walk. But, again, this streetcar is going well beyond downtown, so there's even more purpose for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
More people wish they didn't need cars now. They are expensive and gas prices are rising. Downtown living is often harder with a car.Quote:
We had a streetcar over 50 years ago. We got rid of it because of lack of use due to people driving automobiles. More people have more cars now. So we didn't need it 50 years ago, but we need it now?
I guess I'd just say that it's early and the streetcar isn't some magic wand. The results will be coming in slowly over the next ten years. If you want to read a summary of the UC study done on the impact, here you go:Quote:
I've read about purported development that will take place along the route. The article you refer to talks about the "hope" that development will take place. But we did hear from one guy who just bought a bunch of run down housing, most if not all will probably be Section 8, who after the fact, says that the streetcar is going to help his business. If I was in that business I'd say the same thing- he's trying to increase his property values. But the actual statistics show that there has been no increase in property sales in that area.
"A feasibility study was completed in 2007 that focused on a 3.9-mile (6.3 km) loop from The Banks, through downtown and Over-the-Rhine.[15] According to the study the city would gain between 1,200 and 3,400 additional residences, raise an additional $34,000,000 in property taxes, and yield $17,000,000 in retail activity per year from new residents.[3] Within a quarter mile of the line there are 97 acres of surface parking lots along the downtown and Over-the-Rhine line.[3] The potential yield of the parking lots for redevelopment is 3,787 housing units or 7,412,900 sq ft (688,680 m2) of commercial/office/hotel space.[3] The study says lots would create between $54 million and $193 million additional redevelopment per year, with a conservative estimate of $112 million per year.[3] A total property value premium of $379,000,000 plus $1,480,000,000 of redevelopment over 10 years (conservative estimate) would equal a total of $1,911,000,000 of benefits for the city.[3] The study concludes that the benefit-cost ratio of the downtown and Over-the-Rhine line would be 15.2 to 1, which means for every dollar Cincinnati spends it will receive $15.20 in return.[3] The University of Cincinnati "checked the math" of the study and found that the "projections of the benefits of ridership and economic development" are "credible."[16]
The study projected that a 2010 opening year would draw an estimated 4,600 riders of the downtown and Over-the-Rhine portion of the line each weekday.[3] According to city leaders, if 2 percent of downtown workers, and 2 percent of convention attendees, and 2 percent of Over-the-Rhine residents ride the streetcars it will meet that daily ridership.[10] By 2015 about 6,400 people are estimated to ride the streetcars per weekday.[3] Ridership numbers for the uptown line were not included in the study.
The 2007 study also claims the streetcar system would have four significant economic effects:
1. Customer base and customer access will expand for existing businesses.
2. Improved market values of existing properties.
3. Catalyst for new transit-oriented development where less parking is required.
4. Supporting neighborhoods by making them more walkable."
The crime in the area around the streetcar will have to come down, I agree. But that will take time as smart investments that factor in the permanence of the streetcar (and many many other factors) are made.Quote:
We have another guy who is going to open a corner grocery store who may or may not have said he one reason he moved there (among several) is because of the streetcar. But are people going to sink millions in developing property in the middle of crime riddled neighborhoods because a streetcar will pass by?
If you entirely refute the feasibility study that the city and many of its citizens are counting on, then what can we say? We just agree to disagree, I suppose. I'm with those who believe it will have a positive impact on the area and it has a strong chance to be a part of the enormous effort to revitalize our downtown, which will also benefit the entire region.Quote:
This thing is going to lose milllions of dollars per year. And we will get very little economic benefit in return. If anything, we're going to get negative economic benefit because of the huge losses every year.
Depending on whatever model you dream up, a "feasibilty study" can demonstrate whatever you want it to demonstrate (See, for example, the economic model that said if we passed the $900 billion stimulus bill, unemployment would stay below 8%).Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza delivery
In 1997, a feasibility study was done for the future Freedom Center. It was predicted that 371,000 people would visit the center every year. The first year the Center opened, 205,000 people visited. In 2007, 162,000 people visited. Of those 162,000, only about 61,000 paid to get in.
I have to ask, where do you get this stuff? I can't find any history on private bus transport. I know there was a point where governments intervened because they saw private companies struggling to make a profit, or they wanted to offer more service to more people, but I can't find where it was a takeover of a profitable venture and eventually turned into a bloated mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe
I'll give you that, I can't say it would be worse for certain, but there are strong possibilities that exist that would leave people feeling unaccounted for and vulnerable to market conditions moreso than they are now. Like I said earlier, much of the current subsidies probably began to save failing private companies - similar to airlines.Quote:
MegaBus is a different business model than local transit for sure. And they do offer different prices and late entrants do pay more. The same could be done in local markets (and is done) by offering bus passes for sale. It gives the company a guaranteed flow of passengers at a discount price. People that pay the regular fare do pay more.
You say I can't expect the 59 million to go away and get the same level of service. Not if we have to cut the current system in place off cold turkey. But what if government had never gotten involved? You can't say we wouldn't have an even better system of public transportation in place right now. I think a good chance exists that we would.
The Reds and their employees benefit, their vendors and advertisers too. Anyplace you might by a drink or food down there will as well.Quote:
You claim that the 59 million is not wasted because the public benefits. Does the public benefit, or do some people in the public benefit while others shoulder the burden? It costs over $9 per person for me to take my kids to a Red's game and back. Most of that is paid for by the tax payer. I benefit, others do not. I don't know why you can justify spending $59 million just because some people benefit. Anytime the government takes away 59 million of property from someone and gives it to someone else somebody is going to benefit. When you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul.
Quote:
How many "nice little old private business(es) do any harm?" Do you really need to take a crack at the private market? What did it do to you, besides make everyone of your favorite goods and bring them to market in an affordable and efficient way.
Look around you. Look at the computer you are typing on or the fancy phone you have. Look at your flat screen TV. Look at the nice stove you just made breakfast on today. Look at the machines that wash and dry your clothes. Look at your clothes and your comfortable shoes. Look at your car. Look at everything around you. Look at your favorite things. Think of the things you would like to have in the future. Those things are brought to you by the private market. The things we have today blow away the things we had 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago. People didn't used to have air conditioners or cable tv. The average person in America today lives better than the Emperor of Rome. We live in climate controlled enviornments, where we control the temperature. We have hundreds of channels of entertainment on demand. We have the internet. We have cell phones. For a few hundred bucks you can fly for goodness sake. How much would Ceasar himself have given to fly? We take it for granted. People say that the American Dream is slipping away. They don't realize that people used to live in piss and shyt just a hundred years ago. Think about the advances of medicine and dentistry. Dentistry alone a hundred years ago would send a chill through your spine.
Don't mock my private market. Don't mock the profits that built the most successful, affuent and advanced existence in the history of humanity.
If you are looking for evil look to the government. Governments have given us slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, discrimination, countless wars, genocide, concentration camps and a host of other evils. And all of that has happened in the United States. I think I will stick with the private market.
How'd you get in my apartment?
I like your private market, I just think it's been made better and safer by government regulation and, at times, subsidy. I guess my point was just that you can't ask the private market to look after the general welfare of the public. That's not their role and they'll never fulfill it, although no one can deny how much it has done for the public while fulfilling it's role as catalyst of invention, wealth and employment.
In general (and I mean general), I think people act out in evil ways, not the institutions they create. Government also brought us freedom from evils in the past. War is evil, but lot's of people fight over land and market conditions like a depression, so it's not as simple as Government or private interest is good/evil.
Is there a bus that goes from Clifton to downtown? How many people ride that? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how many people will ride the streetcar?Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza delivery
How many people will go to a Reds game and then catch a streetcar at 10:30 P.M. to go to Clifton via OTR? If you're out of college and living Downtown, you're probably not partying in Clifton. Likewise, if you're a UC student, you're probably not partying downtown. And if your 23 year old daughter told you she was taking the streetcar with her girlfriends at 10:30 p.m. from downtown to Clifton via OTR, would you tell her to take a cab instead?
Why would someone drive downtown to catch a streetcar to get to the Zoo? Why wouldn't they just drive straight to the Zoo?
Most people that work downtown drive. The rest catch a bus. Why wouldn't those people drive or catch a bus if they want to go to Clifton? For that matter, and noted above, who are all these people that live and work downtown who have this great need to go to Clifton? I work downtown. I sometimes like to tip a few after work. But Clifton is not a happy hour destination for downtown workers. Very few downtown workers are going to ride a streetcar to Clifton, drink for an hour (or eat in Clifton) and then ride a streetcar back to downtown so they can get their car to drive home.
If someone works in Clifton, why take a streetcar to get downtown? Are you then going to take the streetcar back to get your car parked in Clifton? Sounds like a long time to eventually get home.
Now I hope I'm wrong. I hope the streetcar does everything you predict it will do. It would be great for the city if your predictions come true. But I just don't see it happening. And I think we're going to waste a lot of money now and in the future on this project.
As much as I hate to agree with 87, this post above is spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
And yes, downtown is a ghost town after 5:30 most week nights as a whole. Sure some small pockets have some people going to happy hour but as a whole very few people are down there after standard business hours during the week.