Streetcar Update on Development

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Originally Posted by XU 87

So if I don't agree with you it's simply because I'm not listening? Or is it because I'm just not acknowledging what is just so darn obvious to smart people like you?

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You don't really dig into detail with your arguments like others in this thread have, for and against. That leads me to think that you're not really interested in hearing both sides, you're just opposed. I don't think I'm smart and you're stupid. I said it's "hard for people to digest" the positive aspects of the streetcar (that IS happening, btw). You and LH could be brilliant doctors for all I know, but your obstinate approach has the effect of frustrating those who spend time checking facts, mulling over articles, and communicating in some extended detail what they think and why.

This whole thread is based on an article spelling out just some of the private interest around the streetcar. The Rookwood example was a clear written statement of intention, yet it was rebuffed over a 60K grant in 2007 that was awarded before Rookwood chose any location. There are tons of examples of successful streetcar projects around the globe. Why look at that stuff? We're in little Cincinnati, it'll fail here, no doubt.

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Originally Posted by pizza delivery

You don't really dig into detail with your arguments like others in this thread have, for and against. That leads me to think that you're not really interested in hearing both sides, you're just opposed. I don't think I'm smart and you're stupid. I said it's "hard for people to digest" the positive aspects of the streetcar (that IS happening, btw). You and LH could be brilliant doctors for all I know, but your obstinate approach has the effect of frustrating those who spend time checking facts, mulling over articles, and communicating in some extended detail what they think and why.

This whole thread is based on an article spelling out just some of the private interest around the streetcar. The Rookwood example was a clear written statement of intention, yet it was rebuffed over a 60K grant in 2007 that was awarded before Rookwood chose any location. There are tons of examples of successful streetcar projects around the globe. Why look at that stuff? We're in little Cincinnati, it'll fail here, no doubt.

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PD,

Not one recent development downtown or in OTR is due to the streetcar.

Please give me a specific example of new developments that will soon begin because of the streetcar.

Portland has a commuter train from the burbs that connects to the streetcar. Cincinnati won't.

What will entice a person that commutes from 15-40 miles outside of the CBD to the CBD every day to ride the streetcar while they are in town. They already drove into the CBD and its not like you can't just walk to most places downtown as is.

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Originally Posted by blobfan

I think they are chasing the bright lights of another city's success combines with federal money (which they constantly call 'free' money). .

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It's not free money. It's our money, or at least our grand-kids' money. At least one $25 million chunk of it is coming from a federal funding program that has a set budget, and is designed to fund the programs with the most potential. Cincinnati's proposal scored at the top of that program when compared to other proposals from around the country.

In this case, your tax dollars were going to be spent. At least this way, they're being spent in your city.

Are there so many people currently walking the streets downtown and in OTR that are wishing there were more stores around them that offered this or that? Are the stores downtown NOW busting at the door with people trying to get in?

Will a person that lives in Mason, drive to the Banks, go to a Reds game and then use the streetcar? If so, where would he go?

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Originally Posted by _LH

I really want to know why you would think the streetcar will make any kind of major positive impact on downtown or OTR and please don't speak in generalities, I want specifics. Also, don't tell me what it did in other cities because that has no bearing on Cincinnati.

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Now you're asking ME for specifics........honestly, and I mean this very sincerely and with the utmost respect.......are you challenged in some way or are you under the age of 16? I would be ashamed of myself if I found out after the fact that I was arguing with a child or someone less fortunate.

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Originally Posted by _LH

Sweet,

Have you ever walked around the CBD between 9:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m. Mon - Fri? It's a ghost town. Have you ever been in the CBD Mon - Thursday on a non Reds night between 5:30 and 9:00 p.m. ? Its a ghost town. Have you ever walked around downtown on a average Sunday? Its a ghost town.

The top three types of people that will ride the streetcar will be:

bums, drunk UC students on the weekend and a few residents downtown that don't own a car and happen to also work downtown.

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The CBD is a ghost town between 9:30am and 4:30pm Mon-Fri? That is news to me, and I work there. I see tons of people there and a see a lot of people staying downtown for Happy Hour drinks, dinner, etc. I have been impressed with how much activity there has been on weekend nights around the CBD as well.

On weekend days the CBD is pretty dead. Probably because it is a business and entertainment district that specializes in office space and bars/restaurants. Saturday and Sunday afternoon are pretty dead times for both of those things, so I am not surprised that nobody is down here then.

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Originally Posted by _LH

PD,

Not one recent development downtown or in OTR is due to the streetcar.

Please give me a specific example of new developments that will soon begin because of the streetcar.

Portland has a commuter train from the burbs that connects to the streetcar. Cincinnati won't.

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Not sure I could give you an example without you claiming they were liars. That's what you did to Rookwood's 80,000 sq ft venture in OTR. If you're looking for giant works like the Fountain Square project (which was public), those haven't been flooding in, of course. Although I've heard Washington Park is getting a parking garage. It's more about smaller investment, high risk, high reward stuff that isn't always news worthy, like this grocery store: http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/09/ch...wn-cincinnati/ . If you keep getting these types of people involved, it adds character over time, instead of getting Target to say they'll open a mega-plex somewhere down there that at the moment might satisfy your standard of results. That's what the street car will produce, results over time. It's permanent, that's one of the benefits.

Now that I've answered your question, tell me this, name one development downtown on it's route that won't benefit from the street car? And are you aware of the potential, discussed in this thread and elsewhere, for expanding the public transit to places like XU, Oakley, Mt. Lookout, etc?

Geez PD, you are a little condescending and insulting. I had no intention of again getting involved in this discussion, but since you've asked I will reiterate my previous arguments to save you the time of re-reading them.

My arguments against the streetcar are very simple. It's going to cost $100 million and much comes from a city that is broke and the rest from a country which is broke. The streetcar is already projected to lose $2 million per year. And since this is the "best" projection, I suspect the loss will be much higher, consistent with other government or quasi-government projects. But our city can't meet its pension obligations so it takes on a project guaranteed to lose millions every year.

Who will ride the streetcar? A few people who live downtown? Do you think many people are going to ride the streetcar, at night, through OTR? We already have buses going from downtown to Clifton. Why do we also need a streetcar? Are streetcar users anti-bus? And as far as using the streetcar downtown, everything is in walking distance downtown.

We had a streetcar over 50 years ago. We got rid of it because of lack of use due to people driving automobiles. More people have more cars now. So we didn't need it 50 years ago, but we need it now?

I've read about purported development that will take place along the route. The article you refer to talks about the "hope" that development will take place. But we did hear from one guy who just bought a bunch of run down housing, most if not all will probably be Section 8, who after the fact, says that the streetcar is going to help his business. If I was in that business I'd say the same thing- he's trying to increase his property values. But the actual statistics show that there has been no increase in property sales in that area.

We have another guy who is going to open a corner grocery store who may or may not have said he one reason he moved there (among several) is because of the streetcar. But are people going to sink millions in developing property in the middle of crime riddled neighborhoods because a streetcar will pass by?

This thing is going to lose milllions of dollars per year. And we will get very little economic benefit in return. If anything, we're going to get negative economic benefit because of the huge losses every year.