I think thats the plan in later phases. I know Covington and Newport want it extended into their cities as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38
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I think thats the plan in later phases. I know Covington and Newport want it extended into their cities as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38
I'm going to ride the streetcars. I'm 24 and a hyde park resident. If I could take a street car or a light rail to mt adams, downtown, or newport, I would go there a lot more often.
The streetcar isn't going to all of a sudden turn Cincinnati into a mass transit, but its a step in the right direction. You cant just all of a sudden build a state of the art, efficient, cheap, and useful system to completely overhaul the way people get around day to day.
You want better access to I-75? Ok, we'll build I-275. Its a foundation. You have to start somewhere. Otherwise, we'll end up like Cleveland.
Guy - I've been wanting that east side light rail ever since it was hinted about in the whole Metro Moves campaign. I recall that one started out as CVG airport to downtown, to XU to hyde park, finally ending up at Kings Island.
Why in god's name would you want a streetcar that extended to XU? What demographic would you be going after there........under 21 with little to no disposable income?Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38
A core of the riders will be new downtown residents. They will not own cars, or will have fewer cars than drivers in a household, and will use public transit to get to work, stores, restaurants and shopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by XU 87
It may seem incomprehensible to you, but not everyone wants to live in the burbs. There is a growing part of the younger population that is attracted to life without a car.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010012301549
There is an existing population that can't drive that does not consider Cincinnati a viable option for living. I have two friends, one who is legally blind and one who is subject to occasional seizures, that have moved away from their home town because it's not possible to live in Cincinnati without a car.Quote:
Federal data released Friday underscore a striking national shift: 30.7 percent of 16-year-olds got their licenses in 2008, compared with 44.7 percent in 1988. The difference is even sharper in Virginia and Maryland, state figures show. Numbers from the District, which go back to 2003, show a decline in the past two years.
When you extend the line into Clifton, you attach a significant college campus and employment center to downtown.
The streetcar will also be able to take advantage of the Transit Center under the Freedom Center. Bus routes can become more efficient if they can enter and leave the downtown area without having to do a loop through the business district. I can hop off the bus and grab a streetcar that can get me through the core of the city in minutes.
I've answered a number of questions about the streetcar to program skeptics. I wonder if you'd answer these for me:
1) Do you believe downtown can grow, or even maintain its current state without investment? (I guess question 1a should be, Do you care?)
2) Given $100 million dollars, what investment programs would you propose?
I am a 100% believer in that downtown needs to continue the investments that are currently going on in order to rebuild an urban core. I am a proponent of the investment in the streetcar, but mostly because currently it's the best idea out there. I could be talked into changing my mind and supporting a better investment idea if one is out there. I'm willing to be convinced.
Convince me.
Here goes.
I don't believe in spending millions in tax dollars on a project that will lose money so it will primarily benefit of chosen few (people who live downtown). Furthermore, downtown is about 6 by 10 blocks, meaning most everything is in walking distance. (I walked 8 blocks to the courthouse this morning so it can be done).
As for my proposal for the $100 million of "investment", I state the following:
1) It's not an "investment"; it's taxpayer expenditures. We have a city that is broke and can't pay future pensions. Despite this apparent insolvency, we want to spend millions to help a select few on a project that will cost more taxpayer money in the future. We also want money from the federal government, who is also in debt to the tune of $13 trillion. In short, we can't afford to keep paying for these projects. If it were such a great idea that would earn a profit, then private industry would do it. Private industry wouldn't get near this project.
2) What I would do with the $100 million? I would give it back to the taxpayers. They know what to do with their money way more than the government. How many millions have been "invested" in Macy's and Sax so we can have the "necessity" of downtown shopping? Private industry seems to be doing a pretty good job of opening new restaurants and bars downtown. But if I had to spend the money, I would spend it on security, police and parking. We saw what happened to Main Street after people became afraid of going there.
Trolleys are a nice idea, if some private company wanted to spend their own money doing it. Instead, they will be built with taxpayer (AKA other's) money. And they will benefit a select few, will have limited interest and ridership, and will lose money requiring more taxpayer subsidies.
KK,
My solution to revitalising down town was to build a light rail, similar to an el -subway combined. I say WAS because I have many of the same serious questions today that I had 20-30-40-50 years ago when there were alleged plans to revitalise the West End and establish Queens Gate as the new upscale living area for young professionals.
Now I wonder:
1)How many people in Greater Cincinnati actually work down town and how many work close to where they live in the suburbs in office parks or by computer from home?
2)How many people from the suburbs in the City of Cincinnati shop at Krogers or other markets down town? Are there any Krogers or Remke or other markets down town? Even in Hyde Park or Avondale or Westwood or College Hill, are people able to take public conveyance to and from the grocery? How would they schlep five or six bags filled with groceries home?
3) How many restaurants of quality are there in down town Cincinnati?
How many movie theaters are there down town? How do the attractions at Newport On the Levee or other Northern Kentucky venues compare to Cincinnati? How many hotel rooms are there in down town Cincinnati proper???
4)Before I would even attempt to offer a plan for the future, I'd need answers to those and many other questions. Which brings up an even more interesting question: How many grandiose development plans have there been for down town revitalisation in the last 40, 30, 20, 10 years? How much money has been spent on those plans and how have the plans and proposals succeeded?
My overall point here is to show that Cincinnati city fathers have over those 40-50 years:
1)Solved our transit problems by eliminating street cars, and trolley buses in the late 40s early 50s, torn up the tracks, removed the overhead electric lines, abandoned subway construction and solved the low ridership problems by raising fares, jacking up rates at parking garages and meters and in general inadvertently promoted and sped up the growth of and flight to the suburbs.
Again, as has been pointed out on occasion on this topic, why not restore the entire street car system or build an el or subway or whatever instead of a limited route that caters primarily to those corporations or individuals who own property along the proposed route?
Why, if the redevelopment of down town is so important to the growth of the Greater Cincinnati area, as vital to keeping the few companies that are in down town Cincinnati there, is there not some attempt or plan for linking Hyde Park, Walnut Hills, Mt. Auburn, Mt. Adams, Coreyville, Clifton, Madisonville, Madison Place, Oakley, Mt. Washington, Western Hills, Avondale, Bond Hill, College Hill, Finneytown, et al with the proposed area to be revitalised?
The answer is the same as when the decision was made to put Great American Ball Park on the river in the wedge instead of at Broadway Commons. Not enough grease was smeared on the owners of property there.
I am not against revitalising the down town area, but I am against another short-sighted pipe dream that has a huge chance of following other such proposals, down the proverbial drain.:D
So, to sum up, your competing idea is "nothing". Let your federal tax dollars go to another community. Let people continue to leave the Cincinnati area, don't attract new businesses or residents, so your share of the unfunded pension liability is even bigger.
I'll risk the streetcar. I already know how your plan turns out.
I find is interesting that you point out that "Private industry seems to be doing a pretty good job of opening new restaurants and bars downtown". Where are all those restaurants and bars going? Around the newly redeveloped fountain square. A perfect example of public infrastructure dollars attracting private investment.
I also don't buy your "relative few" argument for who the streetcar benefits. New businesses and residents (the kind with jobs) benefit everyone because of the increased tax base.
Moreover, a vast majority of the capital expenditures in a typical budget year benefit far fewer than a public transportation system does. Here are some examples from the 09-10 budget:
~$8,000,000 for renovations to the Ohio Veterans Home in Sandusy, Ohio. This is a 427 bed nursing home.
~$21,000,000 for renovations at Miami University, including $6.5 million on Laws Hall alone. The entire school is less than 16,000 students.
And the final winning argument :
" If it were such a great idea that would earn a profit, then private industry would do it. Private industry wouldn't get near this project."
So, you're against highways, public utilities, police and fire departments? None of these ideas turn a profit and private industry isn't going after any of these.
The streetcar itself is not intended to turn a profit any more than the street in front of your office or the traffic light at the intersection does. Or for that matter, the Ohio Veterans Home or Laws Hall at Miami.
Q and 87, what is your take on the success or not of the revamping of Fountain Square?
Theyve decided on a route to uptown..
Vine street
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics...for-streetcar/