Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by Xavier

I think the Republican party did a great job pushing the Democratic party more and more left over the years. To the point where if you don't have far left views you may get attacked by your party. It looks like to me the Democratic party is now doing the same to the Republicans. It becomes a good strategy....but hopefully it leads to most republicans and democrats realize they are a lot closer to the middle than these loud minority extremists.

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I agree with this, however I think that the Democrats have a much better handle on the far left that the Republicans do on the far right at the moment. At least from the standpoint of the Presidential candidates. For all the noise that was (and is) made by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren the last two Democratic nominees have been Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Clinton had a whole lot of baggage, but was by no means far left. Biden is even more toward the middle. Neither were great candidates. I think that Hillary Clinton was about the only person who Trump could have beaten, and I think that Trump is about the only person that Biden could have beaten. Biden has been catching a ton of shit from the far left, but so far he has just ignored it. I hope he continues to do so.

The far right fringe element of the Republican party seems to have very quickly taken over the decision making for the party to the point where Mitch McConnell can sit on the Senate Floor and condemn Trump in pretty strong and certain terms, but then a few weeks later they have Trump speaking at CPAC complete with a golden statue and McConnell is now saying he would support a Trump run for the Presidency mere weeks after he condemned him for inciting an insurrection at our Capitol.

If there ever was a time for the moderate Republicans to break with the far right, this was it. Unfortunately other than about 10 people, nobody is doing that.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

I agree with this, however I think that the Democrats have a much better handle on the far left that the Republicans do on the far right at the moment. At least from the standpoint of the Presidential candidates. For all the noise that was (and is) made by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren the last two Democratic nominees have been Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Clinton had a whole lot of baggage, but was by no means far left. Biden is even more toward the middle. Neither were great candidates. I think that Hillary Clinton was about the only person who Trump could have beaten, and I think that Trump is about the only person that Biden could have beaten. Biden has been catching a ton of shit from the far left, but so far he has just ignored it. I hope he continues to do so.

The far right fringe element of the Republican party seems to have very quickly taken over the decision making for the party to the point where Mitch McConnell can sit on the Senate Floor and condemn Trump in pretty strong and certain terms, but then a few weeks later they have Trump speaking at CPAC complete with a golden statue and McConnell is now saying he would support a Trump run for the Presidency mere weeks after he condemned him for inciting an insurrection at our Capitol.

If there ever was a time for the moderate Republicans to break with the far right, this was it. Unfortunately other than about 10 people, nobody is doing that.

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Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

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Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)

Having a person who incited an insurrection against your own government, putting representatives of that government (and your own vice president) in danger, be the keynote speaker at your convention?

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)

Having a person who incited an insurrection against your own government, putting representatives of that government (and your own vice president) in danger, be the keynote speaker at your convention?

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Sanders ran for President after inciting attempted murder of multiple members of Congress so I find your tripe disingenuous.

Edit: Washington and Jefferson fought an open war against their government and became President.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

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I think it's always a little hard to quantify since it all happens on kind of a sliding scale. It's also difficult with the current state of the Republican party, because I think that a lot of their fringe beliefs have more to do with autocracy etc. than actual politics. In that context I guess its less about 'far right' than it is about people being kind of insane and behaving in an almost cult-like manner.

For example: The extreme idol worship of an individual (including assumptions of infallibility) isn't really a far right belief, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the Republican party right now. Many of them are willing to believe anything Trump tells them without question. They want him to have massive amounts of relatively unchecked executive power. They wanted him to overturn a Presidential election without credible evidence of any widespread fraud.

One thing that I actually kind of like about the Democrats is that they are willing to turn on their own when they transgress. Watch what they do to Cuomo. They will completely destroy him. He's done. As he should be.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

I think it's always a little hard to quantify since it all happens on kind of a sliding scale. It's also difficult with the current state of the Republican party, because I think that a lot of their fringe beliefs have more to do with autocracy etc. than actual politics. In that context I guess its less about 'far right' than it is about people being kind of insane and behaving in an almost cult-like manner.

For example: The extreme idol worship of an individual (including assumptions of infallibility) isn't really a far right belief, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the Republican party right now. Many of them are willing to believe anything Trump tells them without question. They want him to have massive amounts of relatively unchecked executive power. They wanted him to overturn a Presidential election without credible evidence of any widespread fraud.

One thing that I actually kind of like about the Democrats is that they are willing to turn on their own when they transgress. Watch what they do to Cuomo. They will completely destroy him. He's done. As he should be.

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Not a big fan of the idol worship. I find it as off putting as when the Left and Media did the same with Obama.

Edit: That said, I believe many like Trump because he’s believed to be the only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the country. Sure, he’s bombastic and lies but at least he fights. Reminds me of Lincoln’s views on Grant and Sherman.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sanders ran for President after inciting attempted murder of multiple members of Congress so I find your tripe disingenuous.

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Sanders on the nut job who shot up the congressional ball game (he didn't "incite" the guy)

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"I have just been informed that the alleged shooter at the Republican baseball practice is someone who apparently volunteered on my presidential campaign," the Vermont independent said in brief remarks on the Senate floor. "I am sickened by this despicable act. Let me be as clear as I can be — violence of any kind is unacceptable in our society, and I condemn this action in the strongest possible terms. Real change can only come about through nonviolent action, and anything else runs counter to our most deeply held American values."

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Trump on the rioters who caused deaths in the Capitol while the riot was taking place and he was watching:

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"We love you, you're very special."

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I can only hope you understand the difference.

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Originally Posted by paulxu

Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)

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Recency bias?

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not a big fan of the idol worship. I find it as off putting as when the Left and Media did the same with Obama.

Edit: That said, I believe many like Trump because he’s believed to be the only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the country. Sure, he’s bombastic and lies but at least he fights. Reminds me of Lincoln’s views on Grant and Sherman.

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I agree with you 100% on Obama. That was the first I can remember seeing a decent amount of people wearing T-shirts and shit supporting a President. It was a (not insignificant) part of why I voted for Romney over Obama when he ran for re-election. The idol worship and assumption that Obama was some kind of Savior was a little too much.

I'm not sure how much I agree with Trump as the 'only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the Country'. I think this is people grafting things onto Trump that aren't really true as a means to justify support for an individual that I believe is basically just a con artist. What specifically is he fighting for? In all the talking that Trump does, I very rarely hear him talk about Policy. The essential elements of any Trump speech seem to be (1) talking about how great he is, (2) talking about how great his audience is, (3) badmouthing his political opponents and creating fear, (4) vague claims about 'Making America Great Again'. (5) lots and lots of flagrant lying.

I also think he showed pretty clearly that he places himself above the good of the people and the Country. If he gave a shit about the Country he wouldn't have pulled what he pulled in the months after the election. Frankly even if he believed the election was stolen (I think he may actually believe that and could pass a lie detector test to that effect) there was a point at which I think it was pretty clear that the best thing for the Country was to stop pushing and support an orderly transfer of power. You can still push for voting security reforms and an investigation after doing that.

This is still who the party wants to represent it in the next election?

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Originally Posted by boozehound

I agree with you 100% on Obama. That was the first I can remember seeing a decent amount of people wearing T-shirts and shit supporting a President. It was a (not insignificant) part of why I voted for Romney over Obama when he ran for re-election. The idol worship and assumption that Obama was some kind of Savior was a little too much.

I'm not sure how much I agree with Trump as the 'only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the Country'. I think this is people grafting things onto Trump that aren't really true as a means to justify support for an individual that I believe is basically just a con artist. What specifically is he fighting for? In all the talking that Trump does, I very rarely hear him talk about Policy. The essential elements of any Trump speech seem to be (1) talking about how great he is, (2) talking about how great his audience is, (3) badmouthing his political opponents and creating fear, (4) vague claims about 'Making America Great Again'. (5) lots and lots of flagrant lying.

I also think he showed pretty clearly that he places himself above the good of the people and the Country. If he gave a shit about the Country he wouldn't have pulled what he pulled in the months after the election. Frankly even if he believed the election was stolen (I think he may actually believe that and could pass a lie detector test to that effect) there was a point at which I think it was pretty clear that the best thing for the Country was to stop pushing and support an orderly transfer of power. You can still push for voting security reforms and an investigation after doing that.

This is still who the party wants to represent it in the next election?

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I see where you’re coming from on Trump. He is definitely a master of self-promotion. Policy wise I felt he was clear based on his actions. Lower taxes, secure border, American interests first abroad, criminal justice reform, no new wars and historic peace deals and tough on China through trade.

As to the election. The argument can be made that he was speaking for millions who saw the election irregularities and the gov’t doing nothing about it. Particularly the changes made solely by Governors to State election laws. That is a direct violation of the Constitution regardless of the opinions of 9 people.