A-10 Conference Implosion

[bleedXblue]

Not sure really where I want to go with this thread. I'm frustrated with the A-10 right now and I guess more than anything want to vent a little.

I'm just curious where others think the A-10 will be 5 years from now ?

As it looks right now, we'll at best get two teams in the NCAA this year. Likely us as an at large and then the conference tourney champ....which could also very likely be us.

Compare that to the Big East which could easily get 8 teams in this year....and we're being left in the dust. Continuing at this pace will only further perpetuate the difficulty of getting good TV deals to promote and showcase our league.

The A-10's biggest revenue generating sport is BASKETBALL. How does the league improve it's product to position itself for future growth and sustainability ?

IMHO, it needs a serious shakeup. Something drastic like dumping Fordham, St Bonnie, LaSalle and Duquesne and adding...........Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall and Depaul.

Why do those 4 programs leave the best basketball conference for an inferior one ?

1. They can't win consistently against the top teams in the Big East. The 4 programs above are 4-15 in league this year. If they don't have great, great OOC records, their post season chances are slim. The last 3 years their combined Big East record is 78 wins and 124 losses. Not good.

2. All 4 are non-football schools....which conflicts with the Big East in a big, big way.

3. Lastly and most importantly, all 4 schools are losing serious relevancy as it relates to how others view their program in D1 college basketball. All four have good basketball tradition(s) and at one point in time in the last 20 years were much , much more relevant than they are today. What gets peoples attention ? Post season play and wins in the NCAA.

The Big East expansion which looked like a great idea for these 4 programs 5 years ago, has simply swallowed and comsumed them. They are the bottom of the barrell, the whipping boys in a tough, tough conference. Who wants to continue to lose year after year, miss NCAA tourney's year after year ?

I know I'm missing the $$ angle here. I'm sure each program gets lost and lots of dough from the Big East to get their butts kicked year in and year out. But how much money are they losing when season tickets sales are slumping, contributions from alumni dwindling and enrollment suffering ??

Thoughts, ideas, am I crazy ?

I hope our new commish has her thinking cap on. I hope we didn't make this move to continue on the same path as we have been for the last 7-8 years.

[BlueGuy]

The A12 has sucked for as long as I've been a fan. i started rooting for Xavier in 97. I've heard this where will we (as a conf) be in 5 years conversation, a few times now. It's not gonna change. Teams like Fordham, Bonnies, LaSalle, Dayton, Duquesne have been bad for a long time. The A12 blows, and that's just how it's gonna be.

[MHettel]

Interesting. marquette suddenly is on an island in milwaukee without depaul around. Cincy too, but to a lesser extent.

I brought it up years ago, and would like to re-evaluate the possiblity of going independent.

it's not something we can do yet, but another couple good years with another elite 8 mixed in, and continued sucking of the a-10 could make this work.

We're already miles ahead of the A-10. Name the last A-10 team to win a tourney game? Was it GW the year they went 27-2 and were an 8 seed? Pathetic. before that it was the SJU run to the E8.

There is a total lack of commitment across the board for half the league. mediocre athletes, retread or unknown coaches, lousy arenas, no TV deals, etc. it's not like they have tried and failed. they have failed to try.

how much revenue does XU either create directly, or create indirectly for the league? how much NCAA revenue have we earned and shared. how much have we received from others? And would there be ANY TV package for this league without XU? maybe, but maybe not.

i'm not saying that all the teams suck, but enough of them do to leave the decent teams behind.

the obvious benefit of being independent is keeping all the revenue. heck revenue would go up in the case of espn games etc that are set up for us.

The downside is losing the auto bid, which frankly should be of minimal concern if we're consistently winning.

The other downside is scheduling. I think it's easier than many would think. You'd need to play a higher than normal amount of games in nov-dec, and it gets tougher when the conference play starts. but, you could easily line up 3 games against UC, UD and Miami. then you have the best teams from the average leagues that want a possible quality win late in the season that their conference cannot offer. these teams include Gonzaga, memphis, creighton, Butler and various others. Then you'd get the occasional non-con games during conference time, such as our game vs LSU next week.

The goal here is to become a national program. If it works, merchandise goes through the roof. Recruiting goes up too. That means money and players, which mean continued investment, continued success, and MORE money and players.

the ultimate downside is that if it didn't work, then you'd be shamed and have to knock on teh door of a lesser conference to start over. I wouldn't go into it with the mindset of failing.

the A-10 is CLEARLY our limiting factor right now.

[golfitup]

Can we please stop these how bad the A-10 is threads. It's getting more than a little annoying.

[bleedXblue]

Hacker,

offer up some ideas then

you can't just ignore the problem and hope it goes away

[XU Fan]

The A10 sucks for sure, but Xavier is still getting what Xavier needs to get, which is to make the NCAA tourney. While it is true that the Big East will have a lot of teams in the dance, I don't really care because Xavier will be there too. Xavier is doing what UC did in the Great Big Midwest and Conference USA, and what Memphis is doing in Conference USA. Nothing wrong with annual NCAA appearances and victories. I'd rather see X in a better conference, but if that meant it was harder for them to make the dance then I'd take a crappy A10 any day of the week. It's all about the Big Dance.

[The Artist]

Hacker,

offer up some ideas then

you can't just ignore the problem and hope it goes away

And what exactly is the problem???

The A10 is in no way stopping Xavier from getting to the final four or winning a national championship.

[bleedXblue]

I think I pretty much stated what I think is wrong.

The big getting bigger and better and our league getting zero respect.

It' happened before and it will happen again. We'll have a mediocre non conference run 2-3 years from now and then bitch that we can't make up any ground because our league sucks.

Xavier has always looked for ways to improve and get better. Whether it's an on campus arena, coach, league affiliation etc.

I can't imagine that we're content with this conference and the dung that it produces every year. You are who you associate with.

Improving the conference has to be at or near the top of Bobinski's list when the A-10 AD's meet and discuss issues.

[X-Fan]

I concur.

Any more when I hear this "We need to leave the A10 talk" all I hear is "blah blah blah blah".

It's very tired and I don't see our complaining about it changing anything.

Our AD is very good and will do what is best for the program. X is doing just fine in the A10 in my opinion. Sure it hurts our RIP, but since we schedule better now that doesn't matter as much.

Xavier is doing the best with what it has to work with...that is all I care.

[xuab]

X has so many things going for it and one of the biggest is Mike Bobinski. On the Sean Miller show, this topic was brought up. Miller said that Bobinski has positioned himself to be in the heart of college basketball particularly with him on the NCAA committee. If something shakes out, I think Bobo will have X positioned well. He has the power and no matter how much we debate on a message board, we don't. However, for now, X is excelling in all it does. Sure, I'd like the league to be stronger, but I don't see how we've been held back because of it. Many teams and fans would give an arm and a leg to be in our position.

[golfitup]

First off, you're insane if you think St. John's is ever leaving the Big East.

Secondly, that independent argument might be even more nuts. You gotta have a conference affiliation. We could NEVER sustain the success we are having now without the conference affiliation. Would we have gotten in the tournament in 2004 and 2006 without the chance to win the A-10 tournament. Of course not. Being alone on an island would be INSANE!

And I'm sorry, but the A-10 obviously isn't holding us back. Look at our sustained success the past 15 years. There is a direct correlation between that success and the A-10 affiliation. And do you really think we would have won today if we were in the Big East? I highly doubt it. But since we are the big fish in a medium sized pond we got the victory and continue to march on ranked and ready to fight for a 5-0 conference record Wednesday night.

The A-10 is the foundation for our success in the non-conference and the tournament. If we continue to dominate this league, then that means we are getting good players and will be getting into the tournament every year, which also means we will get good non-conference games.

As they say, be careful what you wish for. We are in a great spot right now.

[anXUfan]

The A10 is great for Xavier and is in no way holding X back. The A10 has had numerous top 4 seeds, 3 Elite Eights, and 2 National POY's even since 2000, a down period. A couple of times X wouldn't have made the NCAA field if not for a very winnable A10 conference tourney. X gets on TV plenty. Would I like to see the A10 get better? Of course. Is the current situation a problem for Xavier? I just don't see it.

[bleedXblue]

St. John's is no longer even close to what it once was. One final four 20+ years ago has long been forgotten by many.They're going to chalk up their 5th losing season since 2004 this year. Thats 5 of the last 6 years they've been horrible. They can't compete in the Big East. Period. Done. Over.

I think we'll see a shake up of some sort in the next couple of years. Either by X making a move on it's own or the A-10 finally pulling their heads out of their a**.

We should strike while the irons hot and our value at a premium. Just my opinion.

[GoMuskies]

The A10 is great for Xavier and is in no way holding X back.

This is just the plain old truth. We're in a fantastic situation.

[Snipe]

I love the A-10. Dayton should be good enough for an at large this year. And it is no lock that we will win the Tourney. SJU and Temple could come on strong. Down the line a year or two I expect SLU to be competative and I could see them being a ranked power from time to time.

This league is the best thing that ever happened to us. If Memphis can be happy dominating CUSA why can't we be happy with our own A-10 Kingdom? UC had plenty of success in CUSA. The Big East hasn't been all roses for them.

I like where we are and I think it suits us fine. We can make the Final Four and play for a title in this league.

[Snipe]

This is just the plain old truth. We're in a fantastic situation.

Amen brother GoMuskies.

[golfitup]

St. John's plays its home games in Madison Square Garden! They are in New York, the best recruiting area in the country for high school basketball. As soon as they get the right coach they will return to prominence. Ugh, I am now done with this thread.

[MHettel]

So you suggest that we've NEVER lost out on a recruit due to the A-10?

I believe we have, and therefore the A-10 HAS held us back.

We haven't prospered BECAUSE of the A-10, we've prospered IN SPITE of the A-10.

many of you guys work in business. Do a real business evaluation and come up with a list of our program strengths and weaknesses. A-10 would be NUMBER 1 on the list. You can get better 2 ways. Improve on your strengths, or eliminate your weaknesses.

And this idea that you HAVE to have a conference? I'd like a bit more detail to support that statement. I see no value in a conference aside from the auto-bid, and frankly our program is at the point where earning an at large bid is the goal, regardless of winning the conf tourney.

We cannot do it yet, but if we get 2 more sweet 16s, and possibly an elite 8 in the next 3-4 years, with no improvement by the league, then MAYBE we have independence as an option.

Heck, at least the threat of it might get the freakin conference to finally trim some fat.

Not only do we pay Sean Miller, but our NCAA revenue pays half the other coaches in the league too.

[X-band '01]

St. John's plays its home games in Madison Square Garden! They are in New York, the best recruiting area in the country for high school basketball. As soon as they get the right coach they will return to prominence. Ugh, I am now done with this thread.

They're playing more of their games on-campus in Carnesecca Arena; MSG is becoming more costly for them; they only play there when it's a notable Big East/OOC opponent.

[XURunner85]

as long as we keep dominating the A10 or A12, I am ok with it. It is going to be a long while before schools decide to leave a conference. Do I think the A10 will be the same in 10 to 20 years...nope, something will change....but for now, lets stop crying about the A10 and just keep winning games and championships and getting good seeds in the NCAA...there is nothing we can do and X will do nothing for a good long time. Be patient. Be Proud. Be the Power of X.

[stophorseabuse]

I have always had an idea I feel is better than that, and that idea is FUCK the A-10. There is just too much liability and lack of committment.

1st, I don't like the Catholic League Idea, because I think it would exclude some solid schools that could be a part of a successful new league. Basketball 1st schools is like-minded enought for me.

I would propose a 12 team league with an east and a West
I can think of a SOLID 11, the 12th would be very up for grabs. I have chosen these teams by looking at Name Recognition, Modern winning, Media markets, Facilities, and Fan bases.

Im throwing out some suggestions for #12, granted they all lack something.

Providence
Seton Hall
Rhode Island
Temple
UMASS
Depaul
Xavier
Butler
Dayton
St. Joes
St. Louis

St. Johns/Sienna/Creighton/Duquesne/GW/Charlotte/Cleveland St./Valpo/Milwaukee/VCU

before WKU went D-1 football they were logical.

Best unrepresented media market is GW
Facilities is tied between Creighton and Sienna
Modern winning Creighton, GW, and Charlotte
Name recoginition is St. Johns.
Fan Base: Creighton in a runaway

IF Creighton would agree they would be my choice (biggest winners, and biggest facility in whole mythical conference, but I think in the end GW would make the most sense if they were willing to do a MAJOR face lift to Smith Center. I would want this league to have a minimum capacity seating of 6500 . I wouldn't want 2 teams from NY, so the Johnnies can stay BE. If Creighton wouldn't accept, and GW wouldn't committ to facilities, that would leave Charlotte.


This conference has legit appeal in some major markets Cincy, NY, Chi, Stl, phil, Indy, Char?

Their is a traditional power: X
The 2nd best program is Butler, who a jump like this could take to the next level.
Dayton, St. Joes, and Temple consistently win 20 games.
Every program in the conference will have had a tourney appearance in the last 5 years.

Top level facilities at X, SLU, RI, Prov., Dayton, Temple. Butler is a draw on tradition. St. Joes is getting a renovation, Umass and Charlotte are not bad either.

Regardless of who the bottom of this conference is it will not be like SBU, Fordham, and LaSalle have been traditionally in the A-10. As of right now only Umass, Charlotte, and Depaul have losing records.

7 of the 12 would be rpi top 100. (A-10 has 5 of 14)
Only 3 of 12 woulb be sub 150. (A-10 has 6 of 14)
This league would have a traditional 2 division setup unlike the A-10's stupid design.

This would likely be the clear #7 conf in america, as The A-10 would be left with:

LaSalle
Fordham
SBU
Duquesne
GW
Richmond

These teams would either find new residence, or the Colonial would maybe be raided for GM, VCU, Old Dominion, and they could field a top 12 level conference by snagging maybe a Sienna. But what was left would have Mid Major written all over it.

The A-10 has been good to us, but we have been even better to it. If the conference doesn't put pressure on the joke programs X needs to make something happen, and take the other committed teams with us.

Or, the A-10 could simply put some pressure on the 4 teams that have killed this conference for forever it seems and improve within. If they don't comply--addition by subtraction...
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[Muskie]

I asked this in chat... but what kind of tv package would X expect as an independent? I bet not every game would be televised in that scenario.

[bjf123]

I asked this in chat... but what kind of tv package would X expect as an independent? I bet not every game would be televised in that scenario.There wouldn't be much of a TV package. We ain't Notre Dame football. We don't have hundreds of thousands of alumni. Going independent would be the worst thing the school could ever do for our program. We're much better off being a big fish in a medium sized pond than an insignificant fish in the ocean of college hoops.

[Strange Brew]

I asked this in chat... but what kind of tv package would X expect as an independent? I bet not every game would be televised in that scenario.

As a MKTG guy, the answer is NONE. Xavier as an independent does not have the regional much less national drawl to garner a TV deal. Period. The best thing that could happen as already been mentioned. That is, the non football teams of the BE join the A-10 (and the A-10 grabs Butler) and the conference dumps the perrenial losers.

This may seem crazy but I see a shakeup of the BE within the next 5 years. The lower tier teams have too much self respect to continue to have no shot at the tournament because they finich 8 -16 in the BE.

[xudash]

So you suggest that we've NEVER lost out on a recruit due to the A-10?

I believe we have, and therefore the A-10 HAS held us back.

We haven't prospered BECAUSE of the A-10, we've prospered IN SPITE of the A-10.

many of you guys work in business. Do a real business evaluation and come up with a list of our program strengths and weaknesses. A-10 would be NUMBER 1 on the list. You can get better 2 ways. Improve on your strengths, or eliminate your weaknesses.

And this idea that you HAVE to have a conference? I'd like a bit more detail to support that statement. I see no value in a conference aside from the auto-bid, and frankly our program is at the point where earning an at large bid is the goal, regardless of winning the conf tourney.

We cannot do it yet, but if we get 2 more sweet 16s, and possibly an elite 8 in the next 3-4 years, with no improvement by the league, then MAYBE we have independence as an option.

Heck, at least the threat of it might get the freakin conference to finally trim some fat.

Not only do we pay Sean Miller, but our NCAA revenue pays half the other coaches in the league too.

Even before I post my thoughts, Hettel's bolded statement above deserves repeating.

[xudash]

Stophorseabuse nutted it as well:

"The A-10 has been good to us, but we have been even better to it. If the conference doesn't put pressure on the joke programs X needs to make something happen, and take the other committed teams with us."

[xudash]

My thoughts overall:

If you don't like discussing the conference topic, then don't discuss it, but don't come into the thread and tell other people that it's a stupid discussion or that we shouldn't discuss it.

The A10 helped Xavier immensely when it first joined it, but, as already noted, Xavier went disproportionately further in committing to its program to grow it and make it a force, whereas the A10 collectively failed to advance. The conference failed to advance because it had a very weak commissioner and because many of its member Presidents were weak and/or dealing from positions of weakness - they had to have the association operate at a low common denominator so they wouldn't get flushed out.

Should we care; is it a worthy topic? Absolutely, without question, because the A10 itself can be improved, regardless of what happens with external realignment.

Should that matter to Xavier, given Xavier's ability to perform at a high program level? Of course it should. A school's conference membership is one of a number of key program elements that define how well positioned a school's program is to gain national respect through excellent performance - in season, in post season, in attendance, in recruiting, in exposure.................see how all this is integrated?

What are these program elements? They are:

Administrative support.
Budget.
Excellent coaches - this wraps up recruiting, winning, etc.
Facilities - support a large enough fan base; augment recruiting; present a national image.
Conference affiliation.

These things breed:
Winning.
Tradition.
Fan base.
TV exposure.
Rankings.
Money
Etc.
Etc.

I believe we would all agree that the A10 is problematic. LaSalle is a problem. Fordham is a problem. SBU may be too small and too remote to ever matter again; its budget certainly is a problem given the modern game.

We shouldn't have to sit around and hope for change from within or change forced from the outside.

I'm hopeful that these so-called standards have been put into place. I hope like hell they're almost punitive. No contribution from you Fordham? No investment to turn yourself around Fordham? Zero - ZERO - cash to you from conference NCAA Unit distributions. Pay to play (the right way).

I'm hopeful that Graham and other like-minded Presidents are going to drive our new commissioner to force the issue in certain quarters.

Is change from within the A10 that improves the A10 acceptable to me? Absolutely, so long as it takes the shape of causing the conference to be comprised of truly like-minded, peer institutions that enable the conference to increase its NCAA Units through better post-season placement of its teams and a conference RPI result - year to year - of 7ish on a sustainable basis.

Let the national dialog about the sport convey that the A10 is a legitimate major outside the BCS conferences and that it is a force.

[AdamtheFlyer]

In a world ruled by Occam, Fordham, La Salle, Duquesne, and SBU get the boot and a true A10 emerges as a power league. I think the powers that be at X, UD, UMass, Temple...etc would quietly applaud this move. Problem is, if you get known for booting teams into the abyss, how will other programs/conferences feel come time for your number to be called in a re-alignment matter? It might not be favorable...in fact, it likely won't be.

It's good to think about the whole, but you have to have your own reputation at the top of your priorities. College admins and presidents are a good ol' boys club. You don't want the rep of a program that votes to potentially further cripple down programs for a selfish want.

[GuyFawkes38]

Can we please stop these how bad the A-10 is threads. It's getting more than a little annoying.

Ha!!! I completely agree.

The A10 might suck.

But that isn't something we should obsess about. This isn't college football. In College Basketball, conference affiliation is growing less and less relevant. A large chunk of our schedule is out of conference. We can build up a competitive schedule through that.

Ultimately, the Selection Committee couldn't care less about conference affiliation. And we shouldn't either (as long as we can consistently build a competitive non conference schedule, which I think we can).

[Snipe]

The A-10 does nothing but hold us back! We were playing to go into the Final Four last year. I think Fordham stopped us from winning that game. Please.

I saw CUSA Memphis in the title game. I get to watch Gonzaga on TV, and their conference sucks Moose Cock compared to the mighty A-10. The A-10 has been much better and this isn't such a bad season. The A-10 has been worse. We can get where we want to go every year in the A-10. It is all about us, not the league.

I love the A-10. Bona is going to pack the house on Wednesday and give us a fight. I just want to keep winning.

I hear the same old arguments every year. Don't you guys ever get tired? Dash? For real man, you need to let it go.

If I was master of the universe I would contract this league down to eight or nine teams. I am not though and this league suits me just fine. I don't like the fact that they shuffled the home and home project. The original idea was to have tiers of teams and have the top teams play one another.

Then last year Dayton had an epic collapse, URI had an epic collapse, and SJU just about had an epic collapse. Dayton had injuries, you can't blame that on the schedule. URI choked, you can't blame that on the schedule, they lost to anyone and everyone and laid down like a cheap whore. SJU looked disinterested in some games they lost last year. But when Richmond came in 4th they all decided to scrap the system where the good teams gave each other home and homes and spread the wealth around.

Now we play Charlotte and Fordham twice this year and I don't think either of them has a win yet in the A-10. Why in the hell would we get those clowns as home and home partners? What about SJU, Temple, URI, UMass? I would rather play the Mighty Dukes of Duquesne twice.

Our conference could have gotten four teams last year and when those teams folded they had a knee jerk reaction to the schedule and changed the format. Playing Fordham and Charlotte will hurt us in the SOS and we don't need to play them twice. We need to reward teams in this conference with the best conference games. It would also help league attendance, because we are the freaking show. And how many did we draw at Rose Hill?

I love this league but we could do this thing better while keeping all the current players.

[MHettel]

but here is the main thing.

SOMETHING has to happen.

We've been to 2 elite 8's, yet I'm still hungry. Anyone else still hungry? we are 3 WINS from a national championship. Thats our goal, and it's a mile away. Simply put, it cannot be had from here. We have good players, and we need better players.

Our conference currently makes it hard to get the guys we get. What do we need to do to get guys that win us three more tourney games? It aint happening.

We need the conference to improve, or we need to shed ourselves of their shackles.

We need a bold plan, and it needs to be executed without distraction. I understand that presidents of universities like to play friendly, but this may mean the future of our school. mens basketball is the marketing strategy of XU, and we've got a conference that limits our ability to exploit what we've built.

I dont' really think we're ready for independence, and I don't really want to do it, but if the threat of that isn't there, then we should expect more of the same from the A10...

[GuyFawkes38]

The A-10 does nothing but hold us back! We were playing to go into the Final Four last year. I think Fordham stopped us from winning that game. Please.

I saw CUSA Memphis in the title game. I get to watch Gonzaga on TV, and their conference sucks Moose Cock compared to the mighty A-10. The A-10 has been much better and this isn't such a bad season. The A-10 has been worse. We can get where we want to go every year in the A-10. It is all about us, not the league.

I love the A-10. Bona is going to pack the house on Wednesday and give us a fight. I just want to keep winning.

I hear the same old arguments every year. Don't you guys ever get tired? Dash? For real man, you need to let it go.

If I was master of the universe I would contract this league down to eight or nine teams. I am not though and this league suits me just fine. I don't like the fact that they shuffled the home and home project. The original idea was to have tiers of teams and have the top teams play one another.

Then last year Dayton had an epic collapse, URI had an epic collapse, and SJU just about had an epic collapse. Dayton had injuries, you can't blame that on the schedule. URI choked, you can't blame that on the schedule, they lost to anyone and everyone and laid down like a cheap whore. SJU looked disinterested in some games they lost last year. But when Richmond came in 4th they all decided to scrap the system where the good teams gave each other home and homes and spread the wealth around.

Now we play Charlotte and Fordham twice this year and I don't think either of them has a win yet in the A-10. Why in the hell would we get those clowns as home and home partners? What about SJU, Temple, URI, UMass? I would rather play the Mighty Dukes of Duquesne twice.

Our conference could have gotten four teams last year and when those teams folded they had a knee jerk reaction to the schedule and changed the format. Playing Fordham and Charlotte will hurt us in the SOS and we don't need to play them twice. We need to reward teams in this conference with the best conference games. It would also help league attendance, because we are the freaking show. And how many did we draw at Rose Hill?

I love this league but we could do this thing better while keeping all the current players.

ugghhhh!!!! I love the boldness in Snipe's posts. But I couldn't disagree more with him on this one. I honestly don't think conference affiliation plays such an important role in College Basketball (college football is a different matter).

A large chunk of a team's schedule lies out of conference. X has the ability to create a competitive out of conference schedule. In fact, I'm too lazy to look at the stats, but I'm willing to bet that X has a stronger schedule than many Big Ten teams.

Plus, the Selection Committee doesn't care about conference affiliation. And they do a GREAT JOB at evaluating teams in an honest manner.

Ultimately, success in College Basketball doesn't come down to conference affiliation but success in the NCAA tourney.

[AdamtheFlyer]

The NCAA tourney, like any single elimination tournament, is more about the stars aligning with matchups and luck than an extra good player or two. Last year was the first time since seeding began that the top 4 seeds made the final four. Arizona was either a 4 or 5 seed in 1997. In 2000 Florida needs a buzzer beater to beat Butler and then plays in the final. Indiana made a miracle run to the final in 2002. Wasn't Louisville/WVU a 4-7 Elite 8 game a few years back? Syracuse was a 3 seed with Mellow. Why? Because the Big Dance isn't about who's better, it's about who's better over 40 minutes in a vacuum.

Judging who you are on the NCAA tourney is faulty, because it's such a small sample size. X isn't great because of two Elite 8s. In fact, most basketball fans probably would have no clue that Xavier has been to two Elite 8s in 5 years. They'd likely say that Gonzaga has been to one this decade. They would, however, likely be able to tell you that Xavier is a top notch program that routinely gets ranked and plays on national TV.

The A10 does not keep Xavier from anything.

[Blue Dog]

Ask the fans of Providence, DePaul, St. John's and Seton Hall what they think about moving to the A10 and you'll quickly find out that you're dreaming if you think they'd be in favor of it. To them it would be a huge drop in prestige. Schools like them (Nova, Georgetown & Marquette) can compete in the BE if they get their ducks in a row. I'm pretty confident that most of their fans think they can too if they get the right coach, and they're probably right.

LaSalle, Bona, Duquesne and Fordham are in the same spot in the A10, ie never competitive, and they absolutely hate it when it's suggested that they should go to a lower conference where they'll theoretically be more competitive. To them it's more prestigious to be losers in the A10 than to be contenders in the MEAC or whatever.

I'm frustrated with a lot of the teams in the A10 but there's not much we can do. It's the best conference available. The days of independents in college basketball are long over. If it made sense Memphis would be candidate #1 to give it a shot.

Problem one is that Xavier would only be competing for the national championship, and how likely is that? I like being able to compete for the conference championship each year, and love the A10 tourney. All of that would be gone.

Problem 2 is that AD's also have to be concerned about other sports. I'm not sure what the A10 would think if we dropped out in men's hoops only, they'd probably tell us to take a hike. Then we have big scheduling headaches for all the other sports, and none of them would ever be competing for a championship of any kind.

[mr. zimpher]

I've had this conversation, with non X fans and X fans alike, so many times I can't see straight. Honestly, I've found myself on both sides of this fence in the past but I've firmly come to the rationale that the A10 will serve us just fine. We are capable of accomplishing everything we could possibly want right where we are. We've been just one win away from a Final Four twice in the past five seasons. Unfortunately, the matchups in the regional finals (although I still think we were better than Duke) just didn't favor us. We've had a national POY, several NBA draftees, and recruits who were sought after by some of the nation's "elite" programs. Also, we've been consistently ranked and whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not, being ranked puts you on TV, puts you on Sportscenter, and puts you on the radar of potential recruits. We're also getting non-conference opponents such as Duke, Butler, LSU, Indiana, Memphis, etc. Our non-con schedule has been good enough to overlook the fact we're beating up on Fordham, Lasalle, and Bonaventure in conference. There's not a whole lot more you can ask for. I would assume for most of you that would like an upgrade in conference that the Big East would be your ideal fit. I'm not sure what we would gain from being in a conference like that. Let's face it, even in our best years, a fourth or fifth place finish would be tough with the likes of Uconn, Pitt, Georgetown, Louisville, Notre Dame, Marquette and even Syracuse. Just take a look at our little brother in Clifton. Now obviously they've had to face the obstacle of the multiple coaching fiascos they've suffered recently but they have taken a serious fall from grace since joining the Big East. Even considering the instability of the coaching situation, if they remained in CUSA, they would've made the tourney in Kennedy's season, and probably would've had enough wins last year to at least garner some bubble talk. Instead, they haven't danced in almost 5 years and regardless of how much they might be "improving" I don't see them being strong enough in the near future to finish in the top 7 of the conference to legitamately be considered a tournament team. Now take Memphis. They stayed behind in CUSA and their status as a national power speaks for itself. Hell they were one last second three away from a national title last year. They're on TV all the time and they get recruits who end up being high NBA draft picks. The same can be said for Gonzaga to an extent. So again I ask, what's wrong with being in the A10 if you can dominate it every year, get the auto-bid, and if not we're still an at-large based upon our non-con wins? Everything we could want can be attained right where we are.

[Fred Garvin]

The NCAA tourney, like any single elimination tournament, is more about the stars aligning with matchups and luck than an extra good player or two. Last year was the first time since seeding began that the top 4 seeds made the final four. .

Yeah, that's why UCLA has made three straight Final Fours. They sure are some lucky sobs in Westwood. Couldn't have anything to do with talent.

[stophorseabuse]

X should ALWAYS be looking to improve, therefore this thread is in no way stupid.

Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne and SBU have been problems for a long time, no major conference has so many perrenial drags on their conference. We basically have 4 Northwesterns or Oregon St.'s

Several things here from earlier posts.

1.) of course UD fans don't want to believe a team is judged on tournament success. Shocking

2.) Snipe, you started off hard core the A10 is fine, but then you brought up the problems we are discussing.

3.) Prov, SJ, SH, and Dep would not leave the BE to join the A-10, but they sure might leave to join a non football conference with other programs invested in winning.

Honestly if you could get Xavier, Creighton, Butler, Depaul, Dayton, St. Joes, St. Louis, Seton Hall, Providence, Rhode Island, UMass, and Charlotte together in one league that is a powerful conference, and one the 4 BE teams we mentioned would feel no shame as it would not be a step down, but rather a step over.

We also can hope for a football split in the BE which would put us in prime position to fill the Cincy market that would be left. Non D-1 football Big East is

Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
Nova
SJohns
Depaul
Marquette

Now if that conference wanted splite East West X, UD, SLU, and Butler could fill the West while the East picked up UMass and Temple/Rhode Island (If Temple football affiliation ever catches up.
________
marijuana sativa (http://strainindex.com)

[stophorseabuse]

One More Thing, If X is serious I think they need to get a core of teams together and then threaten the A-10 with leaving unless they make changes. If X, UD, SLU, Umass, St. Joes, Charlotte, and Temple had Butler, Creighton, ODU, and Sienna lined up the A-10 would cave. If not they are left with a league that would land about 25th in the land.

Random thought here, but if you took the attendance numbers from X, SLU, UD, Creighton, and Butler you would likely surpass or at least come close to total attendance for the 11 remaining teams in the A-10.

Another Random Thought, I will call the league the Stophorseabuse on pain pills 12

Percaset League

Xu
UD
Butler
Depaul
Creighton
St. Louis

Vicoden (sp) league

SJoes
RI
Temple
Mass
Hall
Providence

League Champion is awarded The Snipe's crutch championship bottle.
________
essential vaaapp (http://essentialvaaappvaporizer.com)

[Jumpy]

ugghhhh!!!! I love the boldness in Snipe's posts. But I couldn't disagree more with him on this one. I honestly don't think conference affiliation plays such an important role in College Basketball (college football is a different matter).

A large chunk of a team's schedule lies out of conference. X has the ability to create a competitive out of conference schedule. In fact, I'm too lazy to look at the stats, but I'm willing to bet that X has a stronger schedule than many Big Ten teams.

Plus, the Selection Committee doesn't care about conference affiliation. And they do a GREAT JOB at evaluating teams in an honest manner.

Ultimately, success in College Basketball doesn't come down to conference affiliation but success in the NCAA tourney.

How can you honestly believe this? Since the rise of the Big East and the "BCS conferences", conference affiliation has never meant more. The Big Ten, ACC and SEC are guaranteed to get 4-6 teams in the tourney every year because of their conference affiliation. The Big East is guaranteed 6-8 spots in the tourney because they are in the "best" basketball conference. I don't even want to get so long winded as to discuss what conference affiliation means in terms of tv contracts, exposure, revenue or level of recruits.

[GuyFawkes38]

How can you honestly believe this? Since the rise of the Big East and the "BCS conferences", conference affiliation has never meant more. The Big Ten, ACC and SEC are guaranteed to get 4-6 teams in the tourney every year because of their conference affiliation. The Big East is guaranteed 6-8 spots in the tourney because they are in the "best" basketball conference. I don't even want to get so long winded as to discuss what conference affiliation means in terms of tv contracts, exposure, revenue or level of recruits.

It's really just a scheduling thing. Belonging to a better conference would force X to play better teams later in the year instead of November and December. That's all.

I don't understand the whole "the X program would leap to unknown heights with the Big East", attitude among people on this board. It's silly stuff.

The Selection Committee/recruits/media/fans only really care about your overall schedule. Does belonging to a conference impact that. Yes. But in College Baskteball you can play a lot of teams out of conference.

And ultimately it comes down to NCAA tourney success.

[Jumpy]

I don't necessarily believe that X would "leap" to new heights in the Big East. Undoubtedly, though, if X were to move to the Big East, for the sake of your example, our conference affiliation would no longer be a hindrance to our growth as a program on a national level and instead would help that growth.

Its fine to be big fish in a small pond, but just understand that we can only grow as big as that pond lets us. To believe that the pond has no bearing on our growth whatsoever is wrong.

[GuyFawkes38]

I'm going to write a sarcastic post, just for the fun of it:

The goal of the X program for the past 20 years hasn't been to build up winning records and post season success. It's been to belong to an awesome major conference like the Big East. If X ever gets into the Big East, life would get awesome. X would automatically beat better competition and cruise into better NCAA tourney seeds and suddenly make the Final Four, with ease. That's what the Big East could do for us.

sarcasm is fun and make believing is fun.

[Jumpy]

Are you capable of having an actual discussion? At first, I thought that your first post in this thread declaring that conference affiliation has no bearing in the college basketball world was just another of your "sling a bunch of crap against the wall and see what sticks" posts. Then you repeated it and I realized that you actually believe that stupidity.

My fault for trying to have a true discussion on the issue with you. As proven by your previous post, you are incapable of such.

[xuwin]

I totally agree that the A10 Conference is not holding Xavier back. Xavier has been to more NCAA tournaments in the last 15 years than they ever could have been if they had been in the Big East or the ACC. Xavier's program has been getting stronger and stronger and they are fine where they are.

[DC Muskie]

Did someone say they might want Xavier to go independant?

My God, that is by the far the dumbest idea I have ever heard of.

The Atlantic 10 is a great conference for us. It gets us beyond our comfortable Midwest roots and exposes the university on a national level.

I'd rather dominate the A-10, be ranked and make deep runs in the NCAA tournament, then become Seton Hall.

[theprofessor]

Did someone say they might want Xavier to go independant?

My God, that is by the far the dumbest idea I have ever heard of.

The Atlantic 10 is a great conference for us. It gets us beyond our comfortable Midwest roots and exposes the university on a national level.

I'd rather dominate the A-10, be ranked and make deep runs in the NCAA tournament, then become Seton Hall.


I think that's a good point. We are in the tourney every year and it is up to us how far we go from there.

Consider the opposite situation. Take UC for example. They have no chance of making the tourney this year. If they were in the A10, I think they would be like Rhode Island (or any of the 2nd tier teams behind X), with a chance of putting together a run to go 12-4 or whatever, and be in position to get an at-large.

[bourbonman]

... Xavier is doing what UC did in the Great Big Midwest and Conference USA, and what Memphis is doing in Conference USA. Nothing wrong with annual NCAA appearances and victories. I'd rather see X in a better conference, but if that meant it was harder for them to make the dance then I'd take a crappy A10 any day of the week. It's all about the Big Dance.

Until the past decade this is the exact formula the Kentucky used with the SEC. All those SEC titles and title games they won over the years was against schools that were more interested in football. A school may get hot for a year or two, but never held anything together. While it's changed some, the formula is still pretty much the same.

Nothing wrong with Xavier enjoying the fruits of its labor by winning its legitimate conference games and getting into the dance. I just wish we would close better in our own tournament and seal the deal more often ourselves. But more on that later. Let's just keep winning our regular season conference games for now.

[bleedXblue]

The original theme of my thread was that X and the A-10 should look at IMPROVING the league. I think going independant is a bad idea. There are a bunch of different ways it can, could or might happen......I would rather play Butler or Providence or Seton Hall than LaSalle, St. B or Fordham.........it would improve the league (and others perceptions), our SOS wouldn't take huge hits and all involved would benefit. I would not want to join the Big East.........that IMHO would be more of a challenge than we are ready for right now.

[Muskie]

One More Thing, If X is serious I think they need to get a core of teams together and then threaten the A-10 with leaving unless they make changes. If X, UD, SLU, Umass, St. Joes, Charlotte, and Temple had Butler, Creighton, ODU, and Sienna lined up the A-10 would cave. If not they are left with a league that would land about 25th in the land.

Random thought here, but if you took the attendance numbers from X, SLU, UD, Creighton, and Butler you would likely surpass or at least come close to total attendance for the 11 remaining teams in the A-10.

Another Random Thought, I will call the league the Stophorseabuse on pain pills 12

Percaset League

Xu
UD
Butler
Depaul
Creighton
St. Louis

Vicoden (sp) league

SJoes
RI
Temple
Mass
Hall
Providence

League Champion is awarded The Snipe's crutch championship bottle.

I don't see Creighton working... You want Rhode Island traveling to nebraska for a game? Or was it your intention that east meets west only in the post -season tourney?

I still haven't seen a valid reason on why the Big East teams would voluntarily leave the BE. That's a serious prestige drop. It's a little more valid if we're working under the assumption that the BE will split.

[Jumpy]

In an ideal world we would improve the A10 from within to get to the level of the big 6 conferences. As many on here have posted, though, there are too many schools in the conference that aren't committed to improving their programs and there are enough of them that they would stop the rest of us from dropping any or all of them.

I do not want to joint the Big East, either. I think we are up for the challenge of the Big East, and could perform much on the level that Louisville has, but certainly wouldn't stay at or near the top of the conference year in and year out.

The best option is the formation of a new league years down the road. This will only happen if the Big East splits. I don't think we would be able to convince any Big East member to leave their current situations, let alone teams like Creighton or Butler, to start from scratch in allocating revenue, namely tv contracts.

The A10 has worked for us, and probably will continue to work for us as long as we stay in the conference. The problem that I have with it as a conference is that it forces us to be at or near perfection year in and year out. We have to schedule tough non-conf. games and have to have a record like we did this year on top of winning almost every conference game (because any that we lose will be considered bad losses).

[xuwin]

The original theme of my thread was that X and the A-10 should look at IMPROVING the league. I think going independant is a bad idea. There are a bunch of different ways it can, could or might happen......I would rather play Butler or Providence or Seton Hall than LaSalle, St. B or Fordham.........it would improve the league (and others perceptions), our SOS wouldn't take huge hits and all involved would benefit. I would not want to join the Big East.........that IMHO would be more of a challenge than we are ready for right now.

If you think Xavier couldn't compete in the Big East I think you are grossly underestimating the quality of the current Xavier program. When do you think they would be ready for a challenge like that?

[muskienick]

It is extremely sensible to discuss possible different League partnerships for Xavier that would improve its status. One of them has already been suggested by Snipe earlier in this thread:

The "Contraction Conference" consisting of the 9 or 10 most committed current A-10 members based on location, facilities, fan base, and history. Ironically, the Bonnies would not be too far from qualifying for this group but would likely fall a place or two short. Certainly, Fordham, LaSalle, and Duquesne would go first. The Bonnies, GW, and St. Joe's would likely follow in the next group. All the remaining A-10 programs have nice playing venues and decent fan bases and locations.

I believe one of the most important reasons for an improved level of Conference partners is that we would seldom have to worry about being properly prepared to meet stiff competition in the NCAA Tourney and we would have a much better chance to get a favorable seeding in the Tourney. In the current setup, we will annually have to play Fordham, St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, and Duquesne at least one time each, as well as having to play other league members who are having down years (such as GW, Richmond and UNC-C in recent years). Now, we are usually not fully battle-tested, having to look back 2+ months to our OOC to remember exceedingly tough games at tough arenas. Now, we think it's a miracle if any A-10 team gets slotted as a 3-seed (or better) in the NCAA Tourney.

A few other comments about earlier observations on this thread:

I don't believe that any new conference consisting of the BB-driven members of the Big East (following the unlikely split of the League along FB/BB lines) would ever be ignorant enough to include URI, GW, Temple, St. Joe's, LaSalle, or Fordham due to their geographical proximity (and obvious media conflicts) with their core group members: Providence, Georgetown, Villanova, and St. John's respectively. I also doubt that they would beg Duquesne or St. Bonaventure to sign on (despite the Dukes' Pittsburgh location).
When have the Muskies (or any decent A-10 program) enjoyed an RPI boost from playing its Conference schedule? Guy was half right in his comments on that matter. He stated that "the Selection Committee...only really cares about your overall schedule." True enough. The point is, however, that the top teams in the A-10 have "overall schedules" that are drastically downgraded each year by the poor quality of 4-6 of the Conference's member teams. If programs like Butler, Creighton, and Xavier were to replace the annual dregs of their conferences with higher quality programs, then they'd start seeing higher seeds and they'd be far better prepared for longer runs in the Tourney.
Should the Big East split, I could easily see the FB schools cherry-picking Memphis from CUSA to form a 9-Member Football Conference and luring ND to their group (for its "let's split this Conference up" vote) to form a 10-team league in all other sports except football.
The remaining 7 Big East Schools would then set their sights on as few as two, to as many as five, new partners for a new league. Since only two of their number hail from the Midwest, they would likely try to form a 12-team Conference with four from the Midwest and one from the East (to make two 6-member divisions: East and Midwest). The four Midwest schools would likely come from among Butler, Creighton, Dayton, St. Louis, and Xavier. The one additional school from the East would likely be drawn from among Richmond, Siena, and Canisius (with any one of those three being a good choice --- but Siena would be my choice). One would have to believe that Charlotte and UMass would be eliminated from consideration because of all the talk of their desire to upgrade their football programs. In spite of Richmond's National Championship in FCS football, one hasn't heard any rumblings from them about aspirations to higher levels.


I believe Butler and Creighton share the same problem many of us feel Xavier has as the flagship of the A-10. They are usually the flagship programs in decent conferences and often play good OOC schedule to try to beef up their Tourney pedigrees and solidify decent seedings in the bracket (with little hope of a 1, 2, or 3). If the A-10 were somehow able to contract itself to 7-10 of the most attractive of its current members, the addition of those two programs would be outstanding!
Atlantic-9 Conference: Butler, Creighton, Dayton, GW, Richmond, St. Louis, Temple, URI, and Xavier (Eliminates potential FB problems, poorer media outlets and facilities, and duplications in Philly)
A real Atlantic-10 Conference: All the above + Duquesne
An Atlantic-12 Conference: The above A-10 + UMass and Charlotte (hoping they maintain their current level of FB over time)

[MJF4]

The "Contraction Conference" consisting of the 9 or 10 most committed current A-10 members based on location, facilities, fan base

I have always believed that this was the main driving force behind adding SLU and UNCC. If I remember correctly, the decision to add the two schools was hardly unanimous for the then A10 members. It was the Xavier and UD's of the league pushing for the addition of St Louis and Charlotte. I mean why in the world would Fordham or Bonaventure really want to add two more programs that had a history of success on the basketball court (and in the case of SLU are geographically far removed). The powers that be at Xavier and UD and other like minded institutions in the A10 (those that see athletics and basketball as a component of the overall business plan) were already considering a contracted conference, I believe. Having two additional schools that have made commitments to their athletic departments does two things. It puts more pressure on the "lower tier" (for lack of a better term) schools, and it adds to the core group in case an exit is ultimately decided upon. I use the term exit because that is how it will work, if it does. No one is kicking anybody else out for the reasons already cited. However, an exit, either by the lower tier or upper tier is possible.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the fans at say Butler or Creighton engage in these kinds of discussions? These two schools are often mentioned as "new conference" partners, so I was just wondering.

[Muskie]

What we're forgetting is that Xavier uses the Atlantic 10 conference to market itself to prospective students as well (putting the basketball aside). When X joined the A-10 they wanted to increase their exposure to potential students on the East Coast. I don't see them giving up that exposure to play in some of these more mid-western proposed conferences. X's target market for students isnt in Nebraska or in St. Louis it's at least those places plus New York, Virginia, D.C., etc.

[bleedXblue]

xuwin,

I think we could compete, but would have a tough time winning the conference....against the likes of UCONN, Syracuse, GTown etc....there are no off nights in the Big East...their worst programs are respectable and similar to Dayton, UMass and Temple.

[QueensbridgeMF]

St. John's plays its home games in Madison Square Garden! They are in New York, the best recruiting area in the country for high school basketball. As soon as they get the right coach they will return to prominence. Ugh, I am now done with this thread.

I long for the days of Artest and Bootsy and sold out games at The Garden against the hated UCon and the Cuse and GTown. Jarvis ruined this team with arogance and thinking he needed to recrute nationally when all the talent he needed was in his back yard. Now all the NYC kids go to Pitt or UCon or anywhere else but the outskirts of Queens. They do have a great soccer program but bball is not what it used to be. I do like Norm but bringing this team back from scandal and sucky-ness is like Obama trying to erase W's damage. I hope but don't expect.

[muskienick]

Muskie,

Xavier traditionally gets large numbers of students from up-state Ohio (far beyond Dayton), Chicagoland, and Indianapolis, none of which are homes to A-10 Members. If the Muskies were in a more competitive (contracted) A-10 Conference, imagine how much more exposure it would get, even without the NYC, Olean, and Pittsburgh presence! Furthermore, I'd trade LaSalle, St. Joe's, Fordham, and St. Bona's for Creighton and Butler in a ....well.... New York second!


bleedxblue,

Xavier will never be in a conference with the likes of Syracuse and UConn. They are BCS Schools. Should we become aligned with schools from the Big East, they would be the schools without BCS football programs (Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, Villanova, and St. John's).

[Muskie]

Muskie,

Xavier traditionally gets large numbers of students from up-state Ohio (far beyond Dayton), Chicagoland, and Indianapolis, none of which are homes to A-10 Members. If the Muskies were in a more competitive (contracted) A-10 Conference, imagine how much more exposure it would get, even without the NYC, Olean, and Pittsburgh presence! Furthermore, I'd trade LaSalle, St. Joe's, Fordham, and St. Bona's for Creighton and Butler in a ....well.... New York second!




No... but they were homes of previous conference members in the MCC. I think you'd find that Xavier's alumni base on the east coast is expanding, which is related to it's exposure in the A-10 markets. I know it's fun to talk about Xavier going to this conference or that conference. It's just important to remember that the gaem of basketball isn't the sole driving force.

[QueensbridgeMF]

"I wouldn't want 2 teams from NY, so the Johnnies can stay BE"

Are you counting The Hall as being in NYC? I would take The Johnies over Seton Hall any day.

[wkrq59]

Forget the Big East. For at least five years that conference is not changing a thing because of football and its position in the BCS.
Forget the pipe dream "All-Catholic Conference" that (God Rest His Soul) Jim McCafferty tried to start back in the 60s and ended up being the MCC.
The A10 is the conference Xavier is in for now and the near (5-10 years) future. Xavier is getting plenty of respect from all but the ignorant. And to paraphrase the Good Lord, "The ignorant like the poor we will always have with us."
Before Xavier joined the A10, few perceived X being in the position of leadership it now occupies. For Xavier to change to a different conference now would be the same as Gonzaga leaving its conference or Creighton the Valley.
As far as recognition goes, Xavier at this point has its scores reported on ESPN first after every game because of the top 25 ranking.
And as far as the Big Least is concerned, again, for the umpteenth time, XAVIER WILL NEVER BE IN A CONFERENCE WITH UC. Period. UC would block and lead a campaign to block any move by conference members or Xavier itself to enter the BE.
If and it's an unlikely IF the BE ever splits off non-D1 football playing schools from basketball, those schools dumped might join other leagues including the A10. But at this point, it ain't gonna happen because the BE is making too damned much money for its 16 members.
Improve the A10, make the bottom feeders upgrade their programs to earn a better conference rating. Bobinski and Fr. Graham are working tirelessly to influence that development of the A10.
Forget the pipe dreams. The BE is not, repeat, not going to change anytime soon. :D

[xu15]

IMO, the talk about us not being to get over the hump to a final 4 or a title in this conference is the worst point. I think if Brown stays we are an extremely legitimate national title contender next year. It seems crazy to think about next year, but its true.

[xudash]

Can the A10 be improved?

Would it be beneficial for Xavier to push for that?

My answers are "yes" and "yes."

I harp on getting to a conference comprised of aligned, peer institutions. I believe that should be the goal. Get to an affiliation where the group of schools are well positioned to perform at a high level, leading to multiple bids and respected league rankings. Do we have more in common with St. Louis than we do with LaSalle? Of course we do. We know which institutions comprise the problem children: Fordham and LaSalle, without question; SBU, without question due to its size and location and regardless of its history; and Duquesne, though the Dukes are beginning to make a case against their execution.

Assuming, following a little obvious housecleaning, this conference collectively firms up and consistently attains multiple bids and a 7 RPI league rating, I would think that it becomes less of a drag on recruiting and more of a contributor in terms of tournament seeding, better exposure, less "mid-major" discussion crap, etc.

For the life of me, I don't understand why the status quo is acceptable to anyone. Helping LaSalle and Fordham find a new home would provide and immediate lift, and motivation for any other existing program that may have thoughts of coasting.

Adam, your points about the kinder, gentler fraternity of school administrators actually can be turned around. Successful schools want to align with successful schools. I doubt that a Jeremy Foley would hold your point of view.

[GuyFawkes38]

Are you capable of having an actual discussion? At first, I thought that your first post in this thread declaring that conference affiliation has no bearing in the college basketball world was just another of your "sling a bunch of crap against the wall and see what sticks" posts. Then you repeated it and I realized that you actually believe that stupidity.

My fault for trying to have a true discussion on the issue with you. As proven by your previous post, you are incapable of such.


Is conference affiliation very important in College Basketball? Jumpy screams YES.

On the other hand, I don't think it's very important and I think it's fun to make fun of people who are obsessed about it. We disagree. I think schools like St. Joes and Memphis have proven that you can build up a great out of conference schedule, coast through conference play with a long winning streak, and go far in the tourney with a 1 or 2 seed.

Would X or Memphis be better off in the Big East? I don't think so (and Big East basketball coaches bitch so much about being in the conference, you shouldn't be so surprised by that answer).

[GuyFawkes38]

I want to write another sarcastic post:

We all know that the Selection Committee cares deeply about conference affiliation. So much so that conference affiliation put Syracuse over the bubble and into the tourney many times in the past 5 years.

Sarcasm is fun. I don't care what jumpy says.

[GuyFawkes38]

In an ideal world we would improve the A10 from within to get to the level of the big 6 conferences. As many on here have posted, though, there are too many schools in the conference that aren't committed to improving their programs and there are enough of them that they would stop the rest of us from dropping any or all of them.

I do not want to joint the Big East, either. I think we are up for the challenge of the Big East, and could perform much on the level that Louisville has, but certainly wouldn't stay at or near the top of the conference year in and year out.

The best option is the formation of a new league years down the road. This will only happen if the Big East splits. I don't think we would be able to convince any Big East member to leave their current situations, let alone teams like Creighton or Butler, to start from scratch in allocating revenue, namely tv contracts.

The A10 has worked for us, and probably will continue to work for us as long as we stay in the conference. The problem that I have with it as a conference is that it forces us to be at or near perfection year in and year out. We have to schedule tough non-conf. games and have to have a record like we did this year on top of winning almost every conference game (because any that we lose will be considered bad losses).


I think I made this observation a long time ago, but it's worth repeating.

All this talk about conferences creeps me out. It sounds too Nazi like. No offense Jumpy, but the tone is 1930's Germany with all the talk about finding a conference that deserves us and breaking up the Big East alliance to form a new powerful conference where we can prosper (perhaps a Catholic conference formed by the bishop).

I hope other A10 school fans aren't reading this type of stuff from us.

[xudash]

Is conference affiliation very important in College Basketball? Jumpy screams YES.

On the other hand, I don't think it's very important and I think it's fun to make fun of people who are obsessed about it. We disagree. I think schools like St. Joes and Memphis have proven that you can build up a great out of conference schedule, coast through conference play with a long winning streak, and go far in the tourney with a 1 or 2 seed.

Would X or Memphis be better off in the Big East? I don't think so (and Big East basketball coaches bitch so much about being in the conference, you shouldn't be so surprised by that answer).

You are singularly focused on a program's ability to get to the Dance. That isn't the only consideration here. This is also about money. This is also about perception, especially as that affects recruiting.

Would you rather have Xavier be successful and receive a conference distribution that, for sake of example, approximates $5 million per year than say $2 million per year?

At the margin, would you love to have Xavier begin to get a few more 5 star recruits because those kids see a solid school, a solid program, and a RESPECTED conference coupled with a challenging OOC schedule?

[Jumpy]

EDIT: Scratch what I originally wrote here. I was caught at a bad time and reacted poorly.

Guy, go back through and read what I wrote. I don't want to join the Big East. I am happy with improving the conference we are in. Conference affiliation has much more impact on the school and program than just getting into the tourney.

[xudash]

"I hope other A10 school fans aren't reading this type of stuff from us."

Guy, Nazi!?

Are you serious? Pathetic and uncommitted schools do not have the privilege of shouting down fan bases of schools that get it and that have made the commitment.

Do you think that hurting LaSalle's or Fordham's feelings here is a worthy concern?

Those schools should be ashamed that they have failed to invest and have therefore failed to contribute to this league, especially given the duration of their respective failure.

I feel sorry for their fans that get it and who care, but that doesn't change anything.

Assuming q is right and we're essentially locked in for a while, I can't see the status quo continuing. IF this commissioner is any good and if the controlling, progressive Presidents stay committed to their course with standards, et al, then change will hopefully come to this conference to improve it.

There is no shame in wanting our school's conference to improve. I don't have to apologize about discussing that. Without question, apologies are due from other quarters in this league.

[bourbonman]

"I hope other A10 school fans aren't reading this type of stuff from us."...Do you think that hurting LaSalle's or Fordham's feelings here is a worthy concern?...

They are bottom feeders and should be treated as such. If they don't make the commitment to improve they should be eliminated and replaced by programs that can compete consistently. I would hate to lose Fordham as to its location in NYC, but it is what it is. Others such as Duquense and St Bonny should be on the short list as well.

I've seen a lot of schools listed as possible add on. I would like to explore the addition of Holy Cross. Not sure how UMass or URI would react, but they consistently have a decent program, at least better than our current bottom feeders.

[GuyFawkes38]

I guess we can all agree to disagree.

I still believe that thanks to smart people like Ken Pomeroy and the person who created the RPI, its increasingly easy to judge how good a team is. The Selection Committee has great tools to seed teams.

That not only means that conference affiliations matters a lot less, but it also means that even scheduling matters less (of course, I still think it's good to create a strong out of conference schedule).

[stophorseabuse]

I don't see Creighton working... You want Rhode Island traveling to nebraska for a game? Or was it your intention that east meets west only in the post -season tourney?

I still haven't seen a valid reason on why the Big East teams would voluntarily leave the BE. That's a serious prestige drop. It's a little more valid if we're working under the assumption that the BE will split.

Creighton would be fine as East Coast teams would only go every other yearr, and Creighton would only travel to the East Coast 3 times a year.

I certainly can't give you evidence the BE schools would leave, but if they did I could see it be for a new conference before moving to the A-10. My best evidence is the talk we have heard about the basketball schools not being treated equally to the football schools. Depaul doesn't have majore BE ties anyway.

Even if those 4 teams you mentioned would'nt come we could have: Xavier, Butler, Dayton, Temple, St. Joes, UMass, Rhode Island, and St. Louis in one 8 team conference where everybody played everybody twice. Is that not a step up from our current situation of playing in crap gym's against teams who haven't seen any postseason in decadeds?
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vaporizer wiki (http://vaporizerwiki.com)

[stophorseabuse]

What we're forgetting is that Xavier uses the Atlantic 10 conference to market itself to prospective students as well (putting the basketball aside). When X joined the A-10 they wanted to increase their exposure to potential students on the East Coast. I don't see them giving up that exposure to play in some of these more mid-western proposed conferences. X's target market for students isnt in Nebraska or in St. Louis it's at least those places plus New York, Virginia, D.C., etc.

The conference I'm suggesting is 1/2 on the East Coast. I'm just adding 2 teams from the midwest to form the west part of the league.

Do you really think Xavier is making a splash among kids in in New York or DC by playing Fordham and GW? less than 1000 people attend these games and the newspaper really doesn't even cover it. Im sure we have become more recognizable in Philly because of all the teams and the fact those teams get covered, but I'd say most of the places we play doesn't get us a lot of applications from would be students.
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jailbroken (http://jailbroken.org)

[stophorseabuse]

Forget the Big East. For at least five years that conference is not changing a thing because of football and its position in the BCS.
Forget the pipe dream "All-Catholic Conference" that (God Rest His Soul) Jim McCafferty tried to start back in the 60s and ended up being the MCC.
The A10 is the conference Xavier is in for now and the near (5-10 years) future. Xavier is getting plenty of respect from all but the ignorant. And to paraphrase the Good Lord, "The ignorant like the poor we will always have with us."
Before Xavier joined the A10, few perceived X being in the position of leadership it now occupies. For Xavier to change to a different conference now would be the same as Gonzaga leaving its conference or Creighton the Valley.
As far as recognition goes, Xavier at this point has its scores reported on ESPN first after every game because of the top 25 ranking.
And as far as the Big Least is concerned, again, for the umpteenth time, XAVIER WILL NEVER BE IN A CONFERENCE WITH UC. Period. UC would block and lead a campaign to block any move by conference members or Xavier itself to enter the BE.
If and it's an unlikely IF the BE ever splits off non-D1 football playing schools from basketball, those schools dumped might join other leagues including the A10. But at this point, it ain't gonna happen because the BE is making too damned much money for its 16 members.
Improve the A10, make the bottom feeders upgrade their programs to earn a better conference rating. Bobinski and Fr. Graham are working tirelessly to influence that development of the A10.
Forget the pipe dreams. The BE is not, repeat, not going to change anytime soon. :D

Hey Q, First I don't think I have ever told you myself how much I appreciate the writing you have done on X boards, or the quality posting you always bring. unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I can't remember you writing for the paper but there is no doubt you were jam up.

I don't think many people are looking at X joining the current BE, that won't happen. What I see as possible and I think a lot of others are considering is if Football splits with basketball the basketball schools would be strapped with a pair of midwest schools and would both want to find them geographical connections and get good new markets, and then X could replace Cincinnati. I don't see that happening and that's why I have repeatedly suggested X and the A-10 eliter forming a new league with member institutions that are committed, and the new conference could set high standard requirements very early on for the new league.

Like I said Q, doesn't a conference where x would only play at 1 small gym (which is being renovated this year) sound a lot better than our annual trips to LaSalle, GW, Duquesne, SBU, and Fordham.

I would like knowing our next game would be against a team most adults at one time or another in their lives have had to decide to mark as a winner on their tournament pool brackets or not. SBU, Fordham, and LaSalle have done NOTHING to show they can make the commitment X and other conference members have or CAN make to winning.
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Forward Control (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Jeep_Forward_Control)

[jdm2000]

I think I made this observation a long time ago, but it's worth repeating.

All this talk about conferences creeps me out. It sounds too Nazi like. No offense Jumpy, but the tone is 1930's Germany with all the talk about finding a conference that deserves us and breaking up the Big East alliance to form a new powerful conference where we can prosper (perhaps a Catholic conference formed by the bishop).

I hope other A10 school fans aren't reading this type of stuff from us.


Wow, that is about the worst possible comparison you can lob out there. Beyond ridiculous.

[Stonebreaker]

The conference is fine, the problem is that Xavier is in it. You can't will perennially bad teams to suddenly overachieve. Isn't going to happen.
So either X stays as one of the lone good teams in a bad conference (ala Memphis-which won't suffer for it), or attempt a move to a better conference.
The label midmajor won't change any time soon unless the latter happens.

[GuyFawkes38]

Wow, that is about the worst possible comparison you can lob out there. Beyond ridiculous.

Ha, I think it's a rough comparison.

But yeah, it's a little tiring every year to have multiple long threads complaining about the conference and scheming to throwout the weaklings of the conference.

I don't think this type of conversation leads anywhere. It kind of makes us look like asses. And I don't think X really has a Fordham problem or a Lasalle problem. I think many are over valuing conference affiliation.

[Jumpy]

Ha, I think it's a rough comparison.

But yeah, it's a little tiring every year to have multiple long threads complaining about the conference and scheming to throwout the weaklings of the conference.

I don't think this type of conversation leads anywhere. It kind of makes us look like asses. And I don't think X really has a Fordham problem or a Lasalle problem. I think many are over valuing conference affiliation.


Since when are you worried about that? :)

[GuyFawkes38]

Since when are you worried about that? :)

Ha!!! Ok, I'm going to admit it right now. Comparing Jumpy to a Nazi for trying to improve the A10 was a little off.

[bleedXblue]

I love the debate and can't understand why some like the A-10 in it's current form.

So, I'll try this. If we were in the Big East or ACC or SEC and sucked every year and missed the post season every year and were the dormat of the league, how would you feel ?

I'd be happy about our affiliation.....but besides that, what do you have ? Money ?? Great, I'm sure the alumni are just thrilled that the school chooses money over winning. I bet their endowments are suffering

I would much, much rather be in a good league with similar schools where we could win, compete for league chamionships and go the NCAA tourney consistently.

That's my bottom feeder Big East argument.

We should be targeting the bottom of the Big East to improve our league. It's simple, makes sense and solves several current issues we have. It would immediately heighten the status of the A-10 (or whatever you call it), help with recruiting and move us in a better position for TV deal(s).

I'm not buying the Big East/Money argument for the bottom teams.

Again, how much $$ is Providence losing in additional enrollment, donations from Alumni, season tickets sales, licensed apparel etc etc.......??

[xudash]

I love the debate and can't understand why some like the A-10 in it's current form.

So, I'll try this. If we were in the Big East or ACC or SEC and sucked every year and missed the post season every year and were the dormat of the league, how would you feel ?

I'd be happy about our affiliation.....but besides that, what do you have ? Money ?? Great, I'm sure the alumni are just thrilled that the school chooses money over winning. I bet their endowments are suffering

I would much, much rather be in a good league with similar schools where we could win, compete for league chamionships and go the NCAA tourney consistently.

That's my bottom feeder Big East argument.

We should be targeting the bottom of the Big East to improve our league. It's simple, makes sense and solves several current issues we have. It would immediately heighten the status of the A-10 (or whatever you call it), help with recruiting and move us in a better position for TV deal(s).

I'm not buying the Big East/Money argument for the bottom teams.

Again, how much $$ is Providence losing in additional enrollment, donations from Alumni, season tickets sales, licensed apparel etc etc.......??

Thank you. A voice of reason from a slightly different angle.

It is interesting that Xavier holds itself to high performance standards in every other area of its operations, academically and athletically, and typically advances its position for having such standards, but, when it comes to its basketball conference affiliation, it is okay for Xavier to coast; it should accept the status quo and not push for improvement in the remaining area that needs leadership.

The A10 appears to be fully capable of being a very good conference. It could get there if it were tweaked to maximize its potential. That would be a fine outcome. Xavier would be fine in such an A10. That's essentially the point: Xavier is okay now within the A10 primarily because of Xavier. Xavier probably would be that much better off - more conference money for distribution from more units and television (i.e. overall better product) - were the conference functioning at its full potential.

Why not want that? Why simply be quiet and not upset others who are tied to the mast of mediocrity?

We have a new commissioner.
We apparently have standards.
We now have St. Louis and Charlotte, who appear to be more aligned with our way of thinking.
We have teams in this thing THAT DON'T CARE OR CAN'T CARE OR BOTH AND THAT IS SHAMEFUL. How do you belong to any form of an association and maintain a straight face where you otherwise do not do - ON PURPOSE - that which you are expected to do to make an occasional positive contribution to that association?

Ask now - at this May's league meeting - what Fordham and LaSalle's specific plans are for full administrative commitment, new facilities, and budget. Their responses will not be acceptable.

Kick out LaSalle.
Kick out Fordham.

Move forward with that much, knowing that GW is renovating and that St. Joe's is renovating; knowing that SBU and Duquesne can survive at the margin for now because they AT LEAST POSSESS ONE KEY ELEMENT REQUIRED IN ALL THIS - THEY CARE.

[xudash]

As a final comment to my last post, I would normally take out SBU, because they don't belong. I don't have to reiterate the reasons why they don't belong.

But they do care and Duquesne is trying to come around, so maintain the balance for now at 12 and see what happens from there.