A Conference That is Gifted at Eating Its Own...

[xudash]

after having soiled itself in its OOC schedule:

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20090109_Atlantic_10_teams_off_to_slow_start_with_ few_wins_against_big_guns.html

Dayton fans should seriously just shut up until they demonstrate an ability to match their resources with performance. It appears as though UMass made them look silly. I suspect the refs had something to do with that as far as certain Flyer fans are concerned.

St. Joe's? After absolutely failing in its OOC schedule this year, after having been a conference leader for years, it takes down URI.

For that matter, URI can hop onto Dayton's bus of ineptitude.

1 bid if Xavier wins the A10 Tournament; 2 bids if we don't; 3 bids if we don't and some form of miracle takes place. I guess the miracle would be that we win the regular season again, UD pulls itself together to have a sufficient resume and some other team, like Temple or UMass wins the A10T.

[xu15]

Someone please get us outta this conference. (well aware that I'm talking to the wall). But I suppose the solution to all problems is to just keep winning.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It is really amazing. I was looking at the A10 scoreboard today and thinking this exact same thing. Same old story.

[GuyFawkes38]

The author claims that X was better last year. I don't know.

I still think Stan and Drew were overrated and that the forward core of the team (Anderson, Brown, Raymond, Love) was what really made the team click last year and this year.

[Snipe]

Someone please get us outta this conference. (well aware that I'm talking to the wall). But I suppose the solution to all problems is to just keep winning.

I love this conference. The Atlantic 10 Conference is the best thing that ever happened to Xavier University that is not named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta or Miller

I don't think that last sentence made sense.

Memphis don't look so bad (CUSA) in the title game last year. We will make the title game in the next four years and we will represent the Atlantic 10 Conference.

I love this league.

UC did pretty well in CUSA.

"Be careful what you wish for" - John Calipari

[X-Fan]

I love this conference. The Atlantic 10 Conference is the best thing that ever happened to Xavier University that is not named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta or Miller

I don't think that last sentence made sense.

Memphis don't look so bad in CUSA in the title game last year. We will make the title game in the next four years and we will represent the Atlantic 10 Conference.

I love this league.

UC didn't pretty well in CUSA.

"Be careful what you wish for" - John Calipari

That is a very good point. X can play tough non-conf. teams and then use conf. play to get ready for the NCAA's every year. I still wish we could cut come of the really crappy conference teams, but X can excel in this conference.

With that said, I would love to see X in the mythical "Catholic League". That would be a great fit.

[drudy23]

The author claims that X was better last year. I don't know.

I still think Stan and Drew were overrated and that the forward core of the team (Anderson, Brown, Raymond, Love) was what really made the team click last year and this year.

I hope you're kidding.

[xu15]

I hope you're kidding.

God I hope he is.


But anyway, Snipe, I see what you mean and I also think we can excel in the A10. I just get frustrated when I am let down by the rest of the league every year. I think a good compromise would be cutting out the perennial bottom feeders to make the conference a little stronger. Anyone know if that might actually happen? I know its been talked about.

[golfitup]

I love this conference. The Atlantic 10 Conference is the best thing that ever happened to Xavier University that is not named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta or Miller.

Agree to agree. It's a pointless conversation anyways cuz it aint happening anytime soon. And frankly, I don't want it to anyways.

[xudash]

God I hope he is.


But anyway, Snipe, I see what you mean and I also think we can excel in the A10. I just get frustrated when I am let down by the rest of the league every year. I think a good compromise would be cutting out the perennial bottom feeders to make the conference a little stronger. Anyone know if that might actually happen? I know its been talked about.

Who knows.

I would like to think that the new commissioner is working on that with the more progressive Presidents and ADs of the league.

I understand the point about the A10 being a reasonable good vehicle for getting us to the Dance, but I believe the Xavier program is strong enough now to be able to compete in the BE.

Consider these two points:

1. Were we in the BE, Xavier would most likely have that much more money, exposure, etc. to position the program for further progress - maybe we can get to a F4 through the A10 (I'm expecting that as well in the next few years) but we would be that much better positioned to get there through better recruiting, at the margin, were we in the BE; and

2. The Xavier job - the coaching job - takes one more very strong step towards being a destination job; no more mid-major discussion were that to be the case.

So we're not going to make the BE "as-is" and we know that. Not a huge problem given where we are today (notwithstanding the above points). So the answer is in getting to the "Catholic League" whatever that ends up looking like, so long as it becomes the premier basketball-centric conference in the nation, or in strengthening the A10.

I am tired of the A10 "as-is." The bottom feeders have to go. LaSalle and either SBU or Fordham. I hate to say it because of its potential, but Fordham probably should go because of its poor leadership. I think Duquesne is coming around. That saves SBU for balance's sake, but SBU doesn't belong in this league either; the stakes that exist in today's game have hurt SBU's positioning in the sport - too small and too remote.

[GuyFawkes38]

I've probably written about 30 times on this board that I think Stan and Drew were overrated last year. That the forwards last year were the heart of the team. And that, in turn, explains the success this year. Yet I get the same shocked reaction everytime

[xu15]

Yes they were important, but you can't say that the senior backcourt wasnt the main reason. They ran shit, plain and simple.

[kjm123]

Has anyone heard what the longer-term prospects are of UNC-Charlotte leaving the A-10 once it establishes a D-I football program? If UNC-C departs that might open the door for other changes in the conference.

[Masterofreality]

Father Graham, who has now assumed the position of "President" of the A-10 Conference said that there have been performance standards established. He went no father than that, but it is clear that the ouster of Linda Blutarsky was not by accident.

We'll see. I have a belief that there will be more heat applied to schools like Fordham and LaSuck to either shape up of ship out.

[London Fan]

We all say we want to be (or are) equal to Gonzaga. I don't see them trying to get into another league. In the BE we would be just like UC or ND. A wnnnabe. In the A10 we rule. I like being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond.

[xuab]

Thanks for the reminder MOR, I just re-watched Fr. Graham who was interviewed at the half of the Robert Morris game. He said:

-He's president of the A-10 conference. We've been working hard at better positioning the conference. We've hired a cracker-jack new commissioner Bernadette McGlade. Who is going to be really terrific at advancing the conference over the course of the next couple of years. A lot of the work is being done internally such as scheduling policies and the like. Bernadette is no non-sense and will help take the conference to the level we need to be at.

[XU 87]

I've probably written about 30 times on this board that I think Stan and Drew were overrated last year. That the forwards last year were the heart of the team. And that, in turn, explains the success this year. Yet I get the same shocked reaction everytime

You get the same shocked reaction because most people are, well...... shocked. Lavender was the best offensive point guard we've had this side of Lionel Chalmers in his senior year. Stanley was the best defensive guard we've had since...... I can't remember. This team went to the elite 8 behind these senior guards.

Every position on the floor is important. But good experienced guards can get you through March. And last year we had good experienced guards. And that's a major reason we did so well in March.

[Section 200]

We all say we want to be (or are) equal to Gonzaga. I don't see them trying to get into another league. In the BE we would be just like UC or ND. A wnnnabe. In the A10 we rule. I like being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond.

We passed Gonzaga years ago. Look up the last time they made the Elite 8.

[xudash]

Father Graham, who has now assumed the position of "President" of the A-10 Conference said that there have been performance standards established. He went no father than that, but it is clear that the ouster of Linda Blutarsky was not by accident.

We'll see. I have a belief that there will be more heat applied to schools like Fordham and LaSuck to either shape up of ship out.

They won't for different reasons. Fordham doesn't get it. LaSalle doesn't have the resources or positioning (3rd class Philly school) to come back in this modern era.

[stophorseabuse]

The solution is simple in my mind and most of the teams would go for it.
Xavier
Dayton
Marquette
Butler (I think they are a young Xavier as a program)
St. Louis
Depaul

St. Joes (if they made the committment to big time facilities.)
Rhode Island
Providence
St. Johns
Temple (If they could shuffle football)
UMASS or Seton Hall

Good markets, good followings, Good Traditions, Mainly good facilities.
________
the volcano vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/volcano-vaporizer)

[XU 87]

I once read somewhere that kicking teams out of the A-10 isn't going to happen. To kick a team out, the A-10 needs some kind of supermajority. And there are so many lousy programs that you can't get the supermajority. The lousy programs need each other's votes so they don't get kicked out.

So as much as I like to talk about kicking out certain lousy programs (LaSalle, St. Bonny, Fordham, etc.) it's probably not going to happen, at least from what I've read. The more likely scenario, if there is any scenario, is that the better programs form a different conference similar to the Mountain West splitting off from the WAC. (Or see the post above).

[xudash]

87, I believe the key phrase in your post was "once read."

I think anything is game now, and you may not be counting properly. I don't know what number constitutes a super majority, but every program save for LaSuck and Fordham have some reasonable justification for remaining included.

Fordham is a shame: so much potential coupled with such a lack of vision on the part of its leadership.

Don't be surprised if a shake-up is in the works.

[xudash]

I should have typed remaining included at this point.

Charlotte will leave at some point for football. IF we want to keep it balanced, that will put SBU at risk.

Perhaps even before that happens - it will take a while for the 49ers to gear up - a conference realignment may occur.

As far as Butler is concerned, I'm okay with them as a conference mate, so long as they can demonstrate a fan base that averages no less than 9k per home game on average. I don't think they're at that level yet, but part of the reason for that is the pathetic Horizon League.

[Snipe]

I once read somewhere that kicking teams out of the A-10 isn't going to happen. To kick a team out, the A-10 needs some kind of supermajority. And there are so many lousy programs that you can't get the supermajority. The lousy programs need each other's votes so they don't get kicked out.

So as much as I like to talk about kicking out certain lousy programs (LaSalle, St. Bonny, Fordham, etc.) it's probably not going to happen, at least from what I've read. The more likely scenario, if there is any scenario, is that the better programs form a different conference similar to the Mountain West splitting off from the WAC. (Or see the post above).

We need to take the best 9 teams out of the Atlantic 10 and form a new conference. I think it would be a good conference. Every team could play each other home and home, which it what a conference is all about (a rivalry with every single team). Conferences shouldn't have less than 8 teams or more than 10 teams.

I don't see it happening. Even so I love the A-10. The A-10 is great for us and we are just going to continue to win it every year. Smell the Glove.

[Jumpy]

We all say we want to be (or are) equal to Gonzaga. I don't see them trying to get into another league. In the BE we would be just like UC or ND. A wnnnabe. In the A10 we rule. I like being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond.

That's a very narrowminded viewpoint.

First, we do not aspire to be Gonzaga. They are their own identity, and we are ours. We are, coincidentally, the stronger program with a much stronger track record of success.

Second, Why handcuff ourselves by keeping the status quo? At this point, the biggest limiting factor to X's being considered a nationally elite team is our conference affiliation and resulting "mid-major" tag. I remember a time when we were joining the A10 when people thought that we we didn't have a shot in hell at competing in that conference. We not only compete, but dominate.

The point is that we can't improve without challenging ourselves. With a better conference affiliation comes more money, more prestige, a better challenge and most importantly, a better chance to win a national championship.

[xudash]

That's a very narrowminded viewpoint.

First, we do not aspire to be Gonzaga. They are their own identity, and we are ours. We are, coincidentally, the stronger program with a much stronger track record of success.

Second, Why handcuff ourselves by keeping the status quo? At this point, the biggest limiting factor to X's being considered a nationally elite team is our conference affiliation and resulting "mid-major" tag. I remember a time when we were joining the A10 when people thought that we we didn't have a shot in hell at competing in that conference. We not only compete, but dominate.

The point is that we can't improve without challenging ourselves. With a better conference affiliation comes more money, more prestige, a better challenge and most importantly, a better chance to win a national championship.

Well put. There is no reason why X could not flourish in a tougher league. We wouldn't be as dominate, but we certainly would be competitive.

[xudash]

We need to take the best 9 teams out of the Atlantic 10 and form a new conference. I think it would be a good conference. Every team could play each other home and home, which it what a conference is all about (a rivalry with every single team). Conferences shouldn't have less than 8 teams or more than 10 teams.

I don't see it happening. Even so I love the A-10. The A-10 is great for us and we are just going to continue to win it every year. Smell the Glove.

Snipe, I thought about this idea again and my key reaction to it now is that the exit would have to be structured the right way for it to make sense. I know that's an obvious statement, but here's the rub: why must schools who have invested and who care pack their suitcases and leave? It seem that the schools who have invested should be allowed to stay and that the schools who have failed to meet standards should have to exit.

The only way an exit of the better schools works is if those schools keep all the NCAA Units going into the new league, as well as any other assets that may be of value from the prior conference affiliation - auto bid being one of those.

I like the A10 name and the conference itself would be instantly better without LaSalle and Fordham. Afterwards, once Charlotte gains its football legs and pulls out, help SBU find a new home and you're down to "10"; no false advertising like the Big10.

[Emp]

I love this conference. The Atlantic 10 Conference is the best thing that ever happened to Xavier University that is not named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta or Miller

I don't think that last sentence made sense.

Memphis don't look so bad (CUSA) in the title game last year. We will make the title game in the next four years and we will represent the Atlantic 10 Conference.

I love this league.

UC did pretty well in CUSA.

"Be careful what you wish for" - John Calipari

Yes. Because my message requires 10 characters, Yes again.

[Staxawax]

I should have typed remaining included at this point.

As far as Butler is concerned, I'm okay with them as a conference mate, so long as they can demonstrate a fan base that averages no less than 9k per home game on average. I don't think they're at that level yet, but part of the reason for that is the pathetic Horizon League.

XU........ I agree with your Butler assessment. The 9k figure is attainable if this "fantasy" conference ever became a reality. We draw well for our prime games against Big 10 competiton and Bracketbuster games. It's just that people are not interested in coming out to see Youngstown State and Loyola. Indy is primarily an IU town...... the grads of IU out-numbering the BU grads 10-1. But, Hoosiers appreciate good basketball and having X, Marquette, Depaul, etc. in on regular basis would bring the faithful out to beautiful Hinkle Fieldhouse.

[xudash]

XU........ I agree with your Butler assessment. The 9k figure is attainable if this "fantasy" conference ever became a reality. We draw well for our prime games against Big 10 competiton and Bracketbuster games. It's just that people are not interested in coming out to see Youngstown State and Loyola. Indy is primarily an IU town...... the grads of IU out-numbering the BU grads 10-1. But, Hoosiers appreciate good basketball and having X, Marquette, Depaul, etc. in on regular basis would bring the faithful out to beautiful Hinkle Fieldhouse.

Stax, do you guys get close to sellouts for the big games? If Butler can show sustained success in attracting crowds for those games it will have demonstrated a strong enough fan base for inclusion in such a league. I imagine the answer is yes, based on some video clips I've seen from a few of these games.

The other thing to look at is your base of season ticket holders. Is that strong and growing for Butler?

No one can argue that people from Indiana appreciate good basketball, that's for sure.

[dc_x]

Why is everyone so focused on the bottom of the A-10? How would dropping Fordham and Duquesne have any impact?

IMO, the A-10's problem is at the top. The general sports fan doesn't care about the A-10 because, outside of Xavier, the rest of the teams are irrelevant. The A-10 was at its peak when both UMass and Temple were perennial top-25 teams.

My biggest gripe with the A-10 is this group of teams - UD, Umass, Temple, Charlotte, SLU, URI, and St. Joes. These teams all have the resources/tradition to be legit top-25 teams every few years and win NCAA tournament games. The last one of these teams to be nationally relevant for a full season was St. Joes back in 2004.

[West is Best]

Why is everyone so focused on the bottom of the A-10? How would dropping Fordham and Duquesne have any impact?

IMO, the A-10's problem is at the top. The general sports fan doesn't care about the A-10 because, outside of Xavier, the rest of the teams are irrelevant. The A-10 was at its peak when both UMass and Temple were perennial top-25 teams.

My biggest gripe with the A-10 is this group of teams - UD, Umass, Temple, Charlotte, SLU, URI, and St. Joes. These teams all have the resources/tradition to be legit top-25 teams every few years and win NCAA tournament games. The last one of these teams to be nationally relevant for a full season was St. Joes back in 2004.

Agree Completely. If the A10 has enough quality teams, nobody will notice that there are a few bottom feeders.

Xavier needs 1 or 2 other teams to establish themselves at our level. Teams that can provide a marquee victory for X if we have a down year or a shakey resume. While getting rid of a bad team will help our RPI, it won't help us get more exposure. A conference rival capable of sweet 16 runs each year would do just that.

[Staxawax]

Stax, do you guys get close to sellouts for the big games? If Butler can show sustained success in attracting crowds for those games it will have demonstrated a strong enough fan base for inclusion in such a league. I imagine the answer is yes, based on some video clips I've seen from a few of these games.

The other thing to look at is your base of season ticket holders. Is that strong and growing for Butler?

No one can argue that people from Indiana appreciate good basketball, that's for sure.

10,800 for Southern Illinois in Bracketbuster 2 years ago (SIU a lot like X…….. they are a close distance and travel well)
10,000 for Ohio State last season
7,300 for Valpo last season
8,000 for Evansville
10,000 for Drake Bracketbuster last season
8,100 for UAB this year (very good advanced sales and walk up crowd)

A small sampling but encouraging. X, OSU, Bradley will be at Hinkle next year along with the Bracketbuster return game (and possibly another BB game @ home). All these games will be 9,500+. We have a home-and-home next year starting with Stanford. Hopefully, we can maintain a series with X. Horizon League games are the weakest link!

Barry Collier (AD) has done the necessary job of transitioning Butler from a $10.00/game bargain ticket to a D1 type of program. Despite a hefty hike in ticket prices last year ($30.00 floor level, $20.00 upper level) the season ticket base is up.

Last but certainly not least is the fact that the recruiting classes now here are a major upgrade from past Butler teams. It was always tough beating Butler with their style of play, now they have better athletes (as you guys found out 1st hand) and the future is bright.

Playing schools close geographically will only help with both home and road attendance for all. We both know there will be re-structuring of conferences at some point in the future, the question is when? 3 years……. 10 years?

[Emp]

The solution is simple in my mind and most of the teams would go for it.
Xavier
Dayton
Marquette
Butler (I think they are a young Xavier as a program)
St. Louis
Depaul

St. Joes (if they made the committment to big time facilities.)
Rhode Island
Providence
St. Johns
Temple (If they could shuffle football)
UMASS or Seton Hall

Good markets, good followings, Good Traditions, Mainly good facilities.

What makes you think Marquette, DePaul, Providence or St Johns would go for this?
History tells us quite the opposite. None of the Midwest teams would leave a league with ND willingly. Nor would St Johns or Seton Hall be willing to make what would be perceived as a step down, unless they got booted by the BigEast football teams.

Dreaming is nice. Until you wake up and you are the only one with the same dream.

[xudash]

10,800 for Southern Illinois in Bracketbuster 2 years ago (SIU a lot like X…….. they are a close distance and travel well)
10,000 for Ohio State last season
7,300 for Valpo last season
8,000 for Evansville
10,000 for Drake Bracketbuster last season
8,100 for UAB this year (very good advanced sales and walk up crowd)

A small sampling but encouraging. X, OSU, Bradley will be at Hinkle next year along with the Bracketbuster return game (and possibly another BB game @ home). All these games will be 9,500+. We have a home-and-home next year starting with Stanford. Hopefully, we can maintain a series with X. Horizon League games are the weakest link!

Barry Collier (AD) has done the necessary job of transitioning Butler from a $10.00/game bargain ticket to a D1 type of program. Despite a hefty hike in ticket prices last year ($30.00 floor level, $20.00 upper level) the season ticket base is up.

Last but certainly not least is the fact that the recruiting classes now here are a major upgrade from past Butler teams. It was always tough beating Butler with their style of play, now they have better athletes (as you guys found out 1st hand) and the future is bright.

Playing schools close geographically will only help with both home and road attendance for all. We both know there will be re-structuring of conferences at some point in the future, the question is when? 3 years……. 10 years?

You guys are growing and strengthening your resume in the Horizon League as we did in the MCC. Your athletes are obviously better and, given their ages, should position Butler for HL and NCAA Tournament success for the next few years for sure. Butler's program will or should rise in stature through its continued success.

You know what we know: if and when more realignment occurs, how your program is positioned at that time will dictate its potential for inclusion in a better gig. So long as your administration gets that and so long as they fully commit to the program, knowing the positive driver it can be for the institution overall, Butler will be fine and should receive such consideration.

In my opinion, Xavier will not come back to a Midwest-centric league. It wants to "stay east" as far as conference affiliation is concerned for strategic reasons. Butler could be infused into the mix by having a top flight basketball-centric conference that has solid members broken down into eastern and western divisions.

BE football has to blink. ND has to make a decision. If that stuff cranks up, hold onto hats.

[danaandvictory]

Wholly disagree. The trigger for conference realignment occurs when/if the Big Ten expands to twelve schools. If Pitt bolts, it leaves the BE in trouble in football. Problem is, the obvious replacement is Memphis, which does not help X a bit.

[xudash]

Wholly disagree. The trigger for conference realignment occurs when/if the Big Ten expands to twelve schools. If Pitt bolts, it leaves the BE in trouble in football. Problem is, the obvious replacement is Memphis, which does not help X a bit.

I'm not sure how you're disagreeing with me, unless you are saying that the Big Ten will start all this. Obviously, Pitt is in the BE, which would constitute a "blink" occurring from within the BE.

I do disagree with you that the Big Ten will start it. Notre Dame appears to be the most entrenched party in all this. I would put the Big Ten second to them; I'm not sure the Big Ten is necessarily killing itself to get to a balanced league for purposes of putting a league championship game into place (how about Soldier Field in Chicago in December for that).

The weakest link in this chain is BE football. Hell, some of the commentators on a couple networks were adamant about taking the BE's auto bid to a BCS bowl away when they were discussing a restructuring of the BCS. Then again, they mentioned doing that to the ACC as well.

IMHO, the BE for football isn't a finished product yet. They know it, and they know that the upper echelon of the BCS Club knows it. There immediate problem is that they don't have an obvious, value-added choice for a new addition. Memphis? ECU?

Coming back full circle on this, in a perfect, arrogant and absolutely unrealistic world - defined as Xavier being in a position to dictate A10 policy - LaSalle and Fordham would be shown the door now; they would be transitioned out after this season. They've had way, way, way too much time to come around. As I've mentioned before, one doesn't have the resources and position (in Philly) to get it done in this modern era and the other doesn't have a clue, nor does it care to gain a clue.

Down to 12. If the BE breaks, all hell breaks loose and X probably ends up with Nova, etc. in a truly basketball-centric powerhouse league. If football movement doesn't take place and we get to the point where Charlotte pulls anchor, moving out with its new football program to C-USA or someplace else, then we go to 10, moving SBU out, or we go back to 12, bringing Butler, or another worthy program in. IF Butler comes in, the Western part of the league becomes:

Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis
Duquesne
Butler
Richmond (Western-Southern; get it!)

The East would include:

UMass
Temple
URI
St. Joe's
GW
SBU

There isn't a program in the West that cannot make an impact.

IF UMass and Temple reestablish themselves, watch out.

That isn't a bad league, regardless of what happens with football. Solid academic line-up as well, especially in the West.

[Ledgewood]

We don't dominate the A10 any more than Temple did back in the 80's, or UMass looked to in the early to mid 90's. And it's not like we win the A10 every year. We still get great competition out of this conference. We compete for the championship year in and year out, but it by no means merits the term "domination."

But I do agree that if we want to rid ourselves of the mid-major title (which I sort of agree with because it describes the conference, not the team), then we do need to trim some of the proverbial fat. I would love to see a movement to do so and try and get some schools like Butler who have the "mid-major" tag but can compete with "major" conference schools. My thought is get the best of the mid-major schools, therefore become a major conference. I like XUDash's propsed changes. Also, I don't care about college football, I just want the Buckeyes to lose every game they ever play. That will probably always make people look down on the A10 because they are dumb, but I don't care. If there was a movement to improve the A10 with the addition of teams like Butler, the nation would begin to respect the A10 a little more and may not use that dredful term "mid-major" as much.

[Masterofreality]

Another example last night. Non-con slackers all of a sudden play their asses off.

Charlotte beats UMess, Poor-mond beats Rhode Island. UMess messed with Temple last weekend.

I just wish that teams like Charlotte and Poormond would just give up and surrender after January 1.