Notre Dame Football

[xudash]

The collegiate football landscape may have permanently changed for ND football, regardless of anyone's opinion of what must be added to or subtracted from the mix in South Bend to right the ship.

ND faces a level of competition today that is extraordinary, and there is nothing that it can do pro-actively that would be acceptable to the academic side of the institution to reestablish as dominant or admirable a position in the sport as it had in the past. The competition accelerated in 1998 when the BCS was formed. It is running away from ND now as collegiate football at this level has virtually fully transitioned to an ivy-covered business. Obviously, football student-athletes at ND hold very little in common with those at places like LSU where metaphysics isn’t exactly part of the course load. Consider the huge conference payouts and growing fan bases across the nation at schools that were never part of the mix historically. Consider the investments made in or planned for facilities all across the nation.

You guys know as well as anyone the key changes that have occurred in the sport that has Lindsay Nelson rolling in his grave:

1. The amount of money that is now in the sport (from television mainly);
2. Cable television + network television (everyone is on television these days);
3. The formation of the BCS;
4. Institutional differences in managing student-athletes;
5. The understood importance of successful athletics on fund raising (i.e. school pride); and
6. Scholarship limitations (i.e. no more hoarding talent).

I understand that these observations are not earth shattering. The focus here is about ND's relative position against other collegiate football programs nationally and how that has changed dramatically to the detriment of ND. That position - ND’s ability to be consistently relevant at the national level – has been weakened by those developments.

In the days of old the name programs, Notre Dame among them, were fewer in number and they essentially controlled demand for television and a far more limited number of bowls. It wasn't exactly an oligopoly, if you will, but the big names consistently reaped the benefits because it was simply harder for others to break through. Scholarship limitations also were not as they are today, which really has helped to increase parity by spreading talent around. Does anyone here remember when Woody Hayes and Bo would run about 100 dressed players for each team out onto the field for their annual war?

Fast forward to today. Connecticut? Rutgers? The University of Cincinnati? UC!! UC was close to dropping football in the early 90's after Penn State put 80 points on them one afternoon (now they’re headed to their first BCS bowl). I could go on and on with this, but you get the idea. Florida, for the most part, was a joke prior to Spurrier. Look at the University of Florida today: sports and SAT scores and a gator-sized application pool that are all on steroids. Now every team in the SEC puts a material effort into their programs, and their investments may increase thanks to their new ESPN deal. Money, television, the BCS, and sophisticated fund raising efforts on campuses across the nation have changed the landscape. Schools have become brands and the brands get stronger through happier alumni, cheering for winning teams in increasing numbers and in new or improved facilities. Wake Forest circa 1978. Wake Forest the last few years!

Again, it's obvious, but it is Xavier's formula with basketball.

So what, right? Notre Dame is Notre Dame. ND has the tradition, resources and facilities to match anyone. It has NBC. It has a BCS bowl tie-in. Notre Dame can fix its own problems and compete once again as it did in the past. I believe all of these things are obvious, save for the last one.

No. I think it is safe to say that ND will never be as accomplished as it was in the past. It may – it should - find a way to compete again from time to time at a reasonably high level, though I doubt winning a national title is in ND’s future, immediate or otherwise. This nastier competitive landscape and ND’s internal standards for academics will see to that. Let's be realistic about this specific area, guys like Saban, Meyer, Rodriguez and Stoops would NEVER go to South Bend. They couldn't recruit the kids they believe they need to compete for NCs.

Notre Dame woke up one day and found itself in a paradox: insane competition fueled by money and prestige and exposure for the more victorious among the expanded base of interested participants. The sport grew up and the money poured in with it, with everyone wanting a piece of the action now. Then there is ND itself with money and prestige and exposure, but fighting with one arm behind its back because it does things the right way academically.

Notre Dame is an academically minded institution that will have to adjust its admission standards for student-athletes if it plans on ever having another shot at another BCS bowl, let alone a victory in one of them. It will be hard even then, but ND probably does not pass go in this environment without such change.

USC mangled Notre Dame last night. ND didn’t make a first down until the very end of the 3rd quarter. Think about that for a moment. Urban Meyer is a bright fellow. As a college football coach wanting to make a name for himself in college football he made the obvious correct choice: Florida over Notre Dame. Think about that statement as well. Ara is rolling in his grave. Recruiting class rankings be damned, there is no end in sight for this - probably not even if Georgia Tech's coach is willing to relocate.

[boozehound]

The collegiate football landscape may have permanently changed for ND football, regardless of anyone's opinion of what must be added to or subtracted from the mix in South Bend to right the ship.

ND faces a level of competition today that is extraordinary, and there is nothing that it can do pro-actively that would be acceptable to the academic side of the institution to reestablish as dominant or admirable a position in the sport as it had in the past. The competition accelerated in 1998 when the BCS was formed. It is running away from ND now as collegiate football at this level has virtually fully transitioned to an ivy-covered business. Obviously, football student-athletes at ND hold very little in common with those at places like LSU where metaphysics isn’t exactly part of the course load. Consider the huge conference payouts and growing fan bases across the nation at schools that were never part of the mix historically. Consider the investments made in or planned for facilities all across the nation.

You guys know as well as anyone the key changes that have occurred in the sport that has Lindsay Nelson rolling in his grave:

1. The amount of money that is now in the sport (from television mainly);
2. Cable television + network television (everyone is on television these days);
3. The formation of the BCS;
4. Institutional differences in managing student-athletes;
5. The understood importance of successful athletics on fund raising (i.e. school pride); and
6. Scholarship limitations (i.e. no more hoarding talent).

I understand that these observations are not earth shattering. The focus here is about ND's relative position against other collegiate football programs nationally and how that has changed dramatically to the detriment of ND. That position - ND’s ability to be consistently relevant at the national level – has been weakened by those developments.

In the days of old the name programs, Notre Dame among them, were fewer in number and they essentially controlled demand for television and a far more limited number of bowls. It wasn't exactly an oligopoly, if you will, but the big names consistently reaped the benefits because it was simply harder for others to break through. Scholarship limitations also were not as they are today, which really has helped to increase parity by spreading talent around. Does anyone here remember when Woody Hayes and Bo would run about 100 dressed players for each team out onto the field for their annual war?

Fast forward to today. Connecticut? Rutgers? The University of Cincinnati? UC!! UC was close to dropping football in the early 90's after Penn State put 80 points on them one afternoon (now they’re headed to their first BCS bowl). I could go on and on with this, but you get the idea. Florida, for the most part, was a joke prior to Spurrier. Look at the University of Florida today: sports and SAT scores and a gator-sized application pool that are all on steroids. Now every team in the SEC puts a material effort into their programs, and their investments may increase thanks to their new ESPN deal. Money, television, the BCS, and sophisticated fund raising efforts on campuses across the nation have changed the landscape. Schools have become brands and the brands get stronger through happier alumni, cheering for winning teams in increasing numbers and in new or improved facilities. Wake Forest circa 1978. Wake Forest the last few years!

Again, it's obvious, but it is Xavier's formula with basketball.

So what, right? Notre Dame is Notre Dame. ND has the tradition, resources and facilities to match anyone. It has NBC. It has a BCS bowl tie-in. Notre Dame can fix its own problems and compete once again as it did in the past. I believe all of these things are obvious, save for the last one.

No. I think it is safe to say that ND will never be as accomplished as it was in the past. It may – it should - find a way to compete again from time to time at a reasonably high level, though I doubt winning a national title is in ND’s future, immediate or otherwise. This nastier competitive landscape and ND’s internal standards for academics will see to that. Let's be realistic about this specific area, guys like Saban, Meyer, Rodriguez and Stoops would NEVER go to South Bend. They couldn't recruit the kids they believe they need to compete for NCs.

Notre Dame woke up one day and found itself in a paradox: insane competition fueled by money and prestige and exposure for the more victorious among the expanded base of interested participants. The sport grew up and the money poured in with it, with everyone wanting a piece of the action now. Then there is ND itself with money and prestige and exposure, but fighting with one arm behind its back because it does things the right way academically.

Notre Dame is an academically minded institution that will have to adjust its admission standards for student-athletes if it plans on ever having another shot at another BCS bowl, let alone a victory in one of them. It will be hard even then, but ND probably does not pass go in this environment without such change.

USC mangled Notre Dame last night. ND didn’t make a first down until the very end of the 3rd quarter. Think about that for a moment. Urban Meyer is a bright fellow. As a college football coach wanting to make a name for himself in college football he made the obvious correct choice: Florida over Notre Dame. Think about that statement as well. Ara is rolling in his grave. Recruiting class rankings be damned, there is no end in sight for this - probably not even if Georgia Tech's coach is willing to relocate.

Good analysis. One question that I have though: are Notre Dame's academic standards that much tougher than a Michigan or a Penn State?

[wkrq59]

You're absolutely right on almost all of it. Simply put, Notre Dame, contrary to popular opinions, doesn't pay as well as teams in conferences.
Here's the thing. Notre Dame has snubbed it's nose at conference affiliations in football because they thought the greed train would run on forever. Well, it's died and so have the wonderful bowl opportunities. Sure ND is 6-6, and bowl eligible. What bowl wants 'em? Oh, wait. Some damned fool bowl will offer. Kids today want to win a championship and play in a big bowl.:D

[kyxu]

Good analysis. One question that I have though: are Notre Dame's academic standards that much tougher than a Michigan or a Penn State?

I'd say the admissions standards are more strict, but that doesn't make Notre Dame a better institution of higher learning.

You give great analysis, dash, but I don't think it's as complex as you make it out to be.

I still fail to see how Notre Dame's admissions standards are an obstacle to it being successful on the football field. Everyone knows that student athletes at places like Notre Dame, Stanford and Northwestern aren't held to the same admissions standards as the rest of the non-sports-playing student body. Notre Dame goes after the top players each year. Some come, some don't. ND still gets some of the best recruiting classes in the country, but the problem is ND's coaching fails to develop such talent. I really think that's the bottom line here.

Don't get me wrong, Notre Dame is no Florida State where they'll essentially take anyone and let them do whatever they want off the field while they're at the school. But ND doesn't exactly limit its scholarship offers to Rhodes Scholars, if you catch my drift.

Notre Dame football is a major cash cow at the institution, and is still an enterprise dripping with money. Case in point, the huge buy-out they're able to give to Weis with one hand, and potentially redeem with the other without batting an eye.

I don't know, I could be misinterpreting your entire post. But I just don't think the problems of Notre Dame football have as much to do with some large-scale change in college football landscape, as opposed to them just having really lousy coaches.

[Juice]

In some article I read the other day, the writer talked about ND's academic standards. It sounds like they are pretty high. He compared their standards to Duke and Vandy. He then said that schools like Michigan and Penn State have somewhat high academic standards and put them in a middle category and then said that most of the SEC and schools like that really have no standards at all other than what is required by NCAA.

[Masterofreality]

Any ND myopian who thinks that they can come close to a national championship any time in the future, here are a few words for you- Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Rice, Stanford, Northwestern. Even Vandy has a deal with the SEC and NCAA that allows kids from the next door school Peabody College to play football at Vandy since Peabody has no athletics. That allows some less than Vandy quality students to play for Vandy and, at least makes them respectable in the cutthroat SEC.

None of those listed schools have any designs on winning a National Championship and they are all unquestioned academic powerhouses. ND arrogance thinks that they can still do it all, mainly because of "tradition." That no longer is enough. ND has to make a decision which way they want it.

If they stay with the academic standards, they'll continue to fail. If they fail, they'll lose their NBC cash cow. If they drop the academic requirements, they are no longer special in that regard and become like 100 other college football playing schools- and they still may not be able to compete at a high level. The "Little 11" sure isn't.

Either way, ND is in a world of hurt from what their myopians want. If they think that Fat Charlie is their only problem, then they aren't even close to acknowledging what choices thay have to make.

[Stonebreaker]

I love seeing analysis on Notre Dame from those who have no idea what they are talking about.
Always good for a laugh.

[Masterofreality]

I love seeing analysis on Notre Dame from those who have no idea what they are talking about.
Always good for a laugh.

Yep, but here's the only analysis I really need - last two years records- 6-6 and 3-9.

Scoreboards tell the tale.

[xudash]

I'd say the admissions standards are more strict, but that doesn't make Notre Dame a better institution of higher learning.

You give great analysis, dash, but I don't think it's as complex as you make it out to be.

I still fail to see how Notre Dame's admissions standards are an obstacle to it being successful on the football field. Everyone knows that student athletes at places like Notre Dame, Stanford and Northwestern aren't held to the same admissions standards as the rest of the non-sports-playing student body. Notre Dame goes after the top players each year. Some come, some don't. ND still gets some of the best recruiting classes in the country, but the problem is ND's coaching fails to develop such talent. I really think that's the bottom line here.

Don't get me wrong, Notre Dame is no Florida State where they'll essentially take anyone and let them do whatever they want off the field while they're at the school. But ND doesn't exactly limit its scholarship offers to Rhodes Scholars, if you catch my drift.

Notre Dame football is a major cash cow at the institution, and is still an enterprise dripping with money. Case in point, the huge buy-out they're able to give to Weis with one hand, and potentially redeem with the other without batting an eye.

I don't know, I could be misinterpreting your entire post. But I just don't think the problems of Notre Dame football have as much to do with some large-scale change in college football landscape, as opposed to them just having really lousy coaches.

That's a fare comeback kyxu. I'm looking at it from an "older lens" where I used to see reruns of ND games on Sunday morning with Lindsay Nelson doing the commentary. Those were the days of Ara and Woody and Bo and Bear Bryant, etc. Those were the days of - pick a number - 20 or so truly powerful programs, limited television and fewer bowls. Juxtapose that against the BCS, the money, the media, sophisticated fund raising, etc. and I still believe ND has awakened to find itself in a very different world from those days when it was part of a smaller club, having more prestige and not as much competition as exists today.

At any rate, I live in SEC country (Jacksonville, FL). Florida is scary. Next week in Atlanta all hell is going to break loose for the SEC Championship game between the Gators and Bama. Notre Dame would be slaughtered if it took the field against either of them, or Oklahoma and a number of others for that matter. I can't see any one coach changing that right now. The field simply isn't level anymore, and attractive programs and tradition exist all over the country.

There are reasons why ND was obliterated in the 3 BCS bowls in which they played and hasn't won a bowl game since 1994, or whatever. Those reasons have intensified; they haven't subsided. Frankly, I think the Big Ten had better gets its act together and soon as well.

Part of this intensified competition thing is this: you are a top-flight recruit and Urban Meyer comes calling with:

1. palm trees;
2. co-eds;
3. development towards an NFL career, assuming you have the talent for it;
4. an educational opportunity "calibrated' to your intellectual level of interest; and
5. all the media, adoring fans and resources you could possibly need.

ND comes calling with South Bend, Indiana; no comment on #2 as compared to a southern school; #3 is more up to the recruit at this point (i.e. the team isn't going to help him shine); and, relatively speaking, the recruit is actually going to have to attend class, and under water basket weaving isn't part of the course load.

I can't think of a coach out there today that could get this program back to a NC game and win it.

[kyxu]

Any ND myopian who thinks that they can come close to a national championship any time in the future, here are a few words for you- Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Rice, Stanford, Northwestern. Even Vandy has a deal with the SEC and NCAA that allows kids from the next door school Peabody College to play football at Vandy since Peabody has no athletics. That allows some less than Vandy quality students to play for Vandy and, at least makes them respectable in the cutthroat SEC.

None of those listed schools have any designs on winning a National Championship and they are all unquestioned academic powerhouses. ND arrogance thinks that they can still do it all, mainly because of "tradition." That no longer is enough. ND has to make a decision which way they want it.

If they stay with the academic standards, they'll continue to fail. If they fail, they'll lose their NBC cash cow. If they drop the academic requirements, they are no longer special in that regard and become like 100 other college football playing schools- and they still may not be able to compete at a high level. The "Little 11" sure isn't.

Either way, ND is in a world of hurt from what their myopians want. If they think that Fat Charlie is their only problem, then they aren't even close to acknowledging what choices thay have to make.

We all know that you hate Notre Dame, but try to be a little objective here.

Again...academic standards are not the problem at Notre Dame. There is no Notre Dame "trying to have it both ways". Period. It also incorrectly assumes that the best athletes in the country are nitwits.

Everyone knows that a kid applying to Notre Dame or Northwestern or Stanford does not go through the same admissions evaluation as some kid who's the #2 high school wide receiver in the country. The former is going to have a more difficult time getting in than the latter. That's just the nature of college athletics.

[DC Muskie]

I love seeing analysis on Notre Dame from those who have no idea what they are talking about.
Always good for a laugh.

Yeah, the analysis of Notre Dame football is funny. The product on the field is nothing short of embarrassing.

Who's getting tickets for the Texas Bowl? I'm in!

[kyxu]

Part of this intensified competition thing is this: you are a top-flight recruit and Urban Meyer comes calling with:

1. palm trees;
2. co-eds;
3. development towards an NFL career, assuming you have the talent for it;
4. an educational opportunity "calibrated' to your intellectual level of interest; and
5. all the media, adoring fans and resources you could possibly need.

ND comes calling with South Bend, Indiana; no comment on #2 as compared to a southern school; #3 is more up to the recruit at this point (i.e. the team isn't going to help him shine); and, relatively speaking, the recruit is actually going to have to attend class, and under water basket weaving isn't part of the course load.

I can't think of a coach out there today that could get this program back to a NC game and win it.

I think that's true for some recruits, but not all. Florida and USC have major selling points to many players, but it doesn't work all the time. ND has lured their fair share of top-flight recruits from Florida and the state of California who had their home-state schools calling, but different kids want different things. But again, ND doesn't seem to develop these types of players. Kinda like with Xavier, the parents of recruits often love Notre Dame -- they love the religious and academic aspect, so parents have often been the ones to nudge their children to South Bend.

And I can't argue that ND will ever be back to where it was. I have no intention of arguing such a thing. So it's easy to look through an "older lens" and say it won't happen, because it will likely never be that way again. The best players no longer come from the midwest and offensive lineman no longer have a max weight of 190 pounds. And no, ND cannot compete with the SEC teams. I'm not arguing that either, nor would I be stupid enough to do so.

All I'm trying to argue is that Notre Dame is not the victim of some paradigm shift, where Notre Dame is now some underfunded behemoth who can't compete with schools from the BCS conferences. I don't think that's the case at all. They have lots of money, lots of exposure and lots of talent. They're poorly managed at the top. That's about the size of it. Their coaching stinks, and the fact they've had a string of lousy coaches dating back the past ten years is causing people to point to the idea that the game has passed Notre Dame by. I don't know if that's necessarily true.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think that's true for some recruits, but not all. Florida and USC have major selling points to many players, but it doesn't work all the time. ND has lured their fair share of top-flight recruits from Florida and the state of California who had their home-state schools calling, but different kids want different things. But again, ND doesn't seem to develop these types of players. Kinda like with Xavier, the parents of recruits often love Notre Dame -- they love the religious and academic aspect, so parents have often been the ones to nudge their children to South Bend.

And I can't argue that ND will ever be back to where it was. I have no intention of arguing such a thing. So it's easy to look through an "older lens" and say it won't happen, because it will likely never be that way again. The best players no longer come from the midwest and offensive lineman no longer have a max weight of 190 pounds. And no, ND cannot compete with the SEC teams. I'm not arguing that either, nor would I be stupid enough to do so.

All I'm trying to argue is that Notre Dame is not the victim of some paradigm shift, where Notre Dame is now some underfunded behemoth who can't compete with schools from the BCS conferences. I don't think that's the case at all. They have lots of money, lots of exposure and lots of talent. They're poorly managed at the top. That's about the size of it. Their coaching stinks, and the fact they've had a string of lousy coaches dating back the past ten years is causing people to point to the idea that the game has passed Notre Dame by. I don't know if that's necessarily true.

I agree with this 100% and you other points. Notre Dame is still getting really talented football players to their school, especially at the skill positions on offense, but they arent being developed and they arent getting any better once they get to college. If you look at the last couple years ND is not having trouble getting the top players to come to their school, so to make the argument that the academic standards is keeping ND down is a stupid one.

[pickledpigsfeet]

The arguement about television money is laughable considering that ND has their own network deal to hype and publicize themselves without any competition, and they still get crossover for big games onto the other networks.

They also said last night that ND played the 107th toughest schedule in the nation this season, out of like 117 teams. And they went 6-6 after narrowly getting by Navy. And then USC scored again and changed the subject. Funny.

Lastly, Lou Holtz left them with controversy and a bare cupboard and they've never recovered. Lou gets held up on a pedestal but he's where the problem started and no one's been able to clean it up since.

[xudash]

pickled and ky, in my original post I acknowledge that Notre Dame has the tradition and resources, etc. to compete. I specifically pointed out the NBC contract in the original post.
I think I would be close to the last person, if not the last person to claim that ND is disadvantaged in this deal financially.

This isn't personal with me. I have an uncle who tutored Theisman and those guys; he's an ND guy.

At any rate, Faust and all that mess happened and then Lou Holtz came along. Though all that happened pre-BCS I trust your fundamental premise is that ND is the right coach away from turning solid talent into an effective football team.

You may be right. You certainly are entitled to your opinion.

I just don't see "it" happening. "It" is Notre Dame's historical expectations and standards, which have not changed in the minds of the faithful: Notre Dame competes to win and to position itself to compete for national championships. As I also noted in my original post, my thoughts on why things have changed aren't exactly profound, but I believe them to be real and significant.

What happens with Charlie will be telling about where all this is headed. Assuming his replacement turns them around in this BCS era, I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong about all this. Nonetheless, turning them around means winning at ND's level of expectation: seasons that look more like 10-2 at the worst, instead of 6-6 and involve a BCS bowl and an occasional, at least, sniff at the NC game.

Anything short of that and the competitive environment and ND's academic standards will have caught up with it.

[vee4xu]

My analysis is short and sweet:

Join a conference.

[XU 87]

Notre Dame has had top 5-10 recruiting classes in the last 3 years. They are able to get the talent. But it certainly appears that their current coach simply can't coach. The previous coach couldn't coach or recruit.

Get Brian Kelly at ND (or anyone else who can coach and recruit) and I bet ND would agan be a top 10 program.

And why does ND have to join a conference? Why would they want to share their tv revenue with ten other teams? ND can stay as an independent because they do have their own tv contract.

And this post comes from someone who isn't much of an ND fan.

[vee4xu]

Good point 87, but ND has played in only one BCS bowl since the NCAA started having those games. When they played OSU in the Fiesta Bowl, everyone was pissed that ND got to keep all $10 million instead of keeping 1/2 and spreading the other half among conference teams. However, in an effort to rectify the situation, the NCAA said that when ND is in a BCS game that they will get only 1/2 in order to make things fairer. So, there is no incremental benefit to ND not being in a conference relative to the BCS. Now, as relates to its deal with NBC, I think I heard something about that 10 year deal coming to an end within the next year, or two and the NBC is not going to offer anywhere near the same terms to ND this time around. At this point, they are in the Big Least in every other sport, so just play football in the league too. Heck, Rutgers, UC and UConn have to be better than Navy, Air Force and Army.

[Juice]

I really think a lot of it has to do with Weis. He needs to go.

Here is an interesting point from SI.com:


Oklahoma is one of those places. After dismantling Mike Leach and Texas Tech last Saturday night, the Sooners might get a shot at playing for the national championship, which would put them in position to win a second title in Bob Stoops' 10 years as head coach. Stoops is the next Barry Switzer (OK, they're not remotely alike, except in the win column), but to get from Switzer (who won three national titles and nearly 84 percent of his games in 16 years from 1973 to '88) to Stoops, Oklahoma had to first go through Gary Gibbs, Howard Schnellenberger (a charter entry in the Hall of Fame of Bad Hires) and John Blake.

Texas is one of those places, too. Darrell Royal (not the first great Texas coach, but the last before Mack Brown was hired in 1998) won 167 games and three national titles from 1957 to '79. The Longhorns didn't win another one until 2006, Brown's eighth year, and long after Fred Akers, David McWilliams and John Mackovic had failed to live up to Royal's legacy.

And Alabama is one of those places, too. The Bear won five national titles and 82 percent of his games in a quarter-century, beginning in 1958, and rocked that houndstooth hat. The bar was set mighty high. Ray Perkins and Bill Curry worked the first seven years after Bryant was gone and won almost 70 percent of their games. But no national titles. Then Gene Stallings beat up Miami in 1992 to take down a championship (and in classic Stallings' fashion began his Sugar Bowl postgame press conference by saying, "As far as injuries...'' as if he had Vandy coming up the next week). After that 'Bama went through Mike DuBose, Dennis Franchione and Mike Shula before landing Nick Saban.

Let's add USC to the mix. There, John Robinson followed John McKay and won a national title, but after that the Trojans went through Ted Tollner, Larry Smith, Robinson II and Paul Hackett before almost accidentally hiring Pete Carroll. This runs the total to: three successes, one pending and 15 failures.

Notre Dame is definitely down and it does face challenges that others do not (academics, being in Indiana, etc.) but ND has the money and facilities to compete. They just need a coach who can do it. Weis is too arrogant to get the job done.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Good point 87, but ND has played in only one BCS bowl since the NCAA started having those games. When they played OSU in the Fiesta Bowl, everyone was pissed that ND got to keep all $10 million instead of keeping 1/2 and spreading the other half among conference teams. However, in an effort to rectify the situation, the NCAA said that when ND is in a BCS game that they will get only 1/2 in order to make things fairer. So, there is no incremental benefit to ND not being in a conference relative to the BCS. Now, as relates to its deal with NBC, I think I heard something about that 10 year deal coming to an end within the next year, or two and the NBC is not going to offer anywhere near the same terms to ND this time around. At this point, they are in the Big Least in every other sport, so just play football in the league too. Heck, Rutgers, UC and UConn have to be better than Navy, Air Force and Army.

They also played LSU in the Sugar Bowl.

[xudash]

vee, ND has actually played in 3 BCS bowls: Oregon State (which blew them away in the Fiesta Bowl) LSU (which blew them away in the Sugar Bowl) and Ohio State. They weren't really close in the Ohio State game as well, though the score was closer than the other two losses.

Again, it goes to my point that one of the last teams that Notre Dame would have ever had to worry about in the old days is Oregon. Roll forward to 2001 and Oregon State puts on a 41 - 9 clinic on the Irish.

[XU 87]

As the SI article points out, if you hire a bad coach, you can have crummy teams, no matter how strong your program is.

ND still has a strong program. They just keep hiring lousy coaches.

The last time, ND wanted Urban Meyer and got Weiss instead. That's sort of like a recruit wanting to play at Xavier and then having to settle for UD.

[Strange Brew]

Good point 87, but ND has played in only one BCS bowl since the NCAA started having those games. When they played OSU in the Fiesta Bowl, everyone was pissed that ND got to keep all $10 million instead of keeping 1/2 and spreading the other half among conference teams. However, in an effort to rectify the situation, the NCAA said that when ND is in a BCS game that they will get only 1/2 in order to make things fairer. So, there is no incremental benefit to ND not being in a conference relative to the BCS. Now, as relates to its deal with NBC, I think I heard something about that 10 year deal coming to an end within the next year, or two and the NBC is not going to offer anywhere near the same terms to ND this time around. At this point, they are in the Big Least in every other sport, so just play football in the league too. Heck, Rutgers, UC and UConn have to be better than Navy, Air Force and Army.

1 BCS or 3. Lost all of them though.

Sorry, posted before I read that someone else had already addressed this.

[chico]

Nothing is harder in college sports thab winning in football. Last night during one of the games thay ran a stat that only two schools have finished in the top 10 the past 5 years - UGA and USC - and UGA won't do it this year. Programs go through hard times - what happened to Nebraska lately. When ND gets a good coach in place they'll be back, because they still have the resources to be able to win. Programs like ND, USC, OSU can recover from bad hires quicker than a school like, say a Syracuse, who had some good teams at one time.

ND will never slide down to a permanent second tier program - they have too much money and the big time alums would never allow it.

[DC Muskie]

Get Brian Kelly at ND (or anyone else who can coach and recruit) and I bet ND would agan be a top 10 program.

Exactly. Then they would be at least tolerable. A top ten team that would be a legitimate top ten program.

Personally, I think ND needs to join a conference. They never will, simply because they beleive in money. Which is numero uno for me on why I have no respect for the place.

[muskieindent]

Ara is rolling in his grave?
I didn't know Ara was dead.

I agree with XU 87.The last 3 coaches have been poor choices but none of them were ND's first choice.Weiss had no head coaching experience and Willingham had only modest success at Stanford.I'm not sure why they hired Davie.Last night was an embarrassment.ND doesn't belong on the same field as USC. They probably deserve Weiss after giving him such a long contract after 1 good season.

Great quote about Notre Dame-an ND grad will pick his nose just to show off his class ring

[vee4xu]

Best I can tell Ara is still alive. His bio says that he was born May 21, 1923 in Akron with no reference to a deceased date. However, watching ND through the Davie, Willingham and Weiss eras may kill him.

[muskienick]

Perhaps it is a very simplistic suggestion to make but what if a Brian Kelly were to ask the powers that be at ND if he could have a Sister Rose type person to be appointed to oversee a smallish staff of academic facilitators for the ND football program if they would permit the intake of any student athlete into the Irish football program who could pass NCAA academic scrutiny.

It's my understanding that ND is Kelly's "dream job." The trouble is, fewer and fewer quality college coaches are viewing the Irish as a destination point for their careers because the cards are stacked against them as far as open recruiting is concerned. Somebody is going to have to pull off what little Lou Holtz was able to do --- talk the Irish brass into agreeing to even the recruiting playing field.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Perhaps it is a very simplistic suggestion to make but what if a Brian Kelly were to ask the powers that be at ND if he could have a Sister Rose type person to be appointed to oversee a smallish staff of academic facilitators for the ND football program if they would permit the intake of any student athlete into the Irish football program who could pass NCAA academic scrutiny.

It's my understanding that ND is Kelly's "dream job." The trouble is, fewer and fewer quality college coaches are viewing the Irish as a destination point for their careers because the cards are stacked against them as far as open recruiting is concerned. Somebody is going to have to pull off what little Lou Holtz was able to do --- talk the Irish brass into agreeing to even the recruiting playing field.

Once again I dont think they are on uneven recruiting ground. Have they not had like 3 straight top 5 classes? Regardless if you agree with the recruting sites they are still getting players that schools liek FL, Oklahoma, USC, and others are going for, so its not like they are getting the good players. They arent developing them or coaching them well is what the problem is.

[xudash]

I stand corrected on Ara. Good for him.

I just see this differently as some of you do and that's okay.

If all this can be fixed with one great hire, then the odds are with them. Certainly they can break this string of ineptitude in making a coaching selection.

Maybe I'm all wet with this after all (I certainly didn't know Meyer picked Florida over ND for the reason stated in the attached):

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20081120/COLUMNISTS0306/811200343/1065/SPORTS

[DiamondDave]

Heck, Rutgers, UC and UConn have to be better than Navy, Air Force and Army.

There's nothing more annoying than ignorant people thinking ND plays the three service academies every year.

As for the program, I'm not smart enough to fix that mess. I don't think joining a conference is necessary but it is inevitable. I believe that the Big East is due for a major shakeup and if that occurs around the same time as the NBC contracts expiration then ND will most likely join.

The new coach needs to be someone with previous head coaching experience. Part of the reason for last year's debacle was Weis' inability to develop any of the younger players during the two BCS years. He was used to the NFL where you don't have to restock rosters from year to year and was left with a completely inexperienced roster in 2007. It would also be nice to have someone in charge who isn't a pompous ass. We need someone who is tough minded, not an outright prick.

[Masterofreality]

kyxu, I don't hate Notre Dame- I don't care enough, but I have no tolerance for inanity when the evidience is clearly out there. I also have no tolerance for arrogance- especially the kind that Fat Charlie Weis displays or that Clausen displayed by announcing his school decision at the College Football Hall of Fame. What PR genius told him to do that? People also used to think that I had some abject hatred of UC. No, I just hated Thuggins, Goin, and the tolerance for slimy, seamy and borderline criminal activity that those jerks kept dealing in.

I deal in reality, not myopia. The reality is that there is no way that Notre Dame will compete for a National Championship unless they give in. No less then the Golden Boy Paul Hornung said that a few years ago, and was roundly criticised and ostracised for it because of some percieved "racial" tone.

Anyone who thinks that ND's problems will just magically go away if and when Fat Charlie is shown the door is not seeing reality. Weis is just another in the long line of recent coaches who can't live up to the alumni's ridiculous expectations.

Just because you get on TV a lot doesn't automatically guarantee that you'll be good. How many more beatdowns to USC will it take before ND fan realizes what they have become, and will continue to be?

[muskienick]

Once again I dont think they are on uneven recruiting ground. Have they not had like 3 straight top 5 classes? Regardless if you agree with the recruting sites they are still getting players that schools liek FL, Oklahoma, USC, and others are going for, so its not like they are getting the good players. They arent developing them or coaching them well is what the problem is.

That is not what the national media say (both print and electronic). That's also not the impression of Urban Meyer who seemingly had in-depth discussions with the Irish brass prior to turning them down.

The fact is that Lou Holtz was able to be successful because he talked ND into lowering their academic standards as far as football recruiting was concerned. When Little Louie left, they stiffened them up again to the chagrin of the Irish coaches that followed Holtz. Notre Dame Football has never been able to challenge the better BCS teams since.

[kyxu]

I deal in reality, not myopia. The reality is that there is no way that Notre Dame will compete for a National Championship unless they give in. No less then the Golden Boy Paul Hornung said that a few years ago, and was roundly criticised and ostracised for it because of some percieved "racial" tone.

Until they "give in" to what??? The rigorous academic standards that prevent top-flight athletes from being admitted to Notre Dame that don't actually exist?! The joining of a conference that would cause them to a) lose their NBC contract and b) split all bowl profits?!

And what Paul Hornung said was idiotic...and racist. He said Notre Dame needed to get "the black athlete". Those were his exact words. That incorrectly assumes that 1) black athletes aren't smart and 2) white athletes aren't good enough. It also completely ignores the fact that Notre Dame's football team is mostly black to begin with. There was no "perceived" racial tone to what Hornung said; it was overt.

You may not deal with Notre Dame-philic myopia, MOR, but you do deal in myopia of a different kind. No disrespect, good sir.

[kyxu]

The fact is that Lou Holtz was able to be successful because he talked ND into lowering their academic standards as far as football recruiting was concerned. When Little Louie left, they stiffened them up again to the chagrin of the Irish coaches that followed Holtz. Notre Dame Football has never been able to challenge the better BCS teams since.

I think we all know the national media is not gospel. What they say isn't always how it goes within a program.

Look at some of the best recruits in the country -- most if not all have Notre Dame offers. Some of these recruits keep the ND offer for later consideration, some say "no thanks" early and go for a program that can win this decade. If the big-time players came a-calling, unless they had a rap sheet, they would be admitted to Notre Dame.

Academics is NOT an issue at Notre Dame when it comes to recruiting. End of story.

[DC Muskie]

Academics is NOT an issue at Notre Dame when it comes to recruiting. End of story.

Here are two articles that say it is...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tim_layden/11/25/notredame/index.html


http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1019088/index.htm?eref=sisf

[kyxu]

Here are two articles that say it is...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tim_layden/11/25/notredame/index.html


http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1019088/index.htm?eref=sisf

I should point out that your first link simply alludes -- in one sentence -- to the content in your second link.

And I remember reading the article in the second link when it came out eight years ago. Much of the content was refuted by Notre Dame, and honestly, things have greatly changed since Bob Davie was the coach. On top of that, Bob Davie was known as a serial excuse maker, saying Notre Dame couldn't compete anymore with these crazy admissions standards, and then Tyrone Willingham comes in the next year and starts 8-0, including victories over four ranked teams, with the players Bob Davie was sucking with. For some strange reason, these "admissions obstacles" only existed when Bob Davie was there. Interesting.

For the past six years, the football program and the admissions office have had a somewhat cordial relationship in sitting down and figuring out who the coaches can offer scholarships to. If the admissions office feels that a recruit is an academic risk, they recommend that a scholarship not be offered, and more often than not, one isn't.

But every year, if you peruse these recruiting rankings, the top players are always offered a scholarship to Notre Dame. Notre Dame is right in there with all these others, begging that this kid come. Typically, if ND doesn't get a top-flight player, it's because the kid didn't want to come to Notre Dame, not because they felt he couldn't cut it.

Please don't construe the points I'm trying to make as defending Notre Dame. I'm not. Nor do I think there's anything pointing to them being "back" anytime soon. More concisely, I'm trying to say that if Notre Dame has any excuses for its mediocrity, academics isn't one of them.

[Masterofreality]

Please don't construe the points I'm trying to make as defending Notre Dame. I'm not. Nor do I think there's anything pointing to them being "back" anytime soon. More concisely, I'm trying to say that if Notre Dame has any excuses for its mediocrity, academics isn't one of them.


Well, ky, you've got six posts in this thread all lengthly defending ND.
And as for Paul Hornung, read negatively into what he said whatever you want, but what he said a few years ago was the truth. If they have the "black athletes" now as you said above, maybe the administration knew he was right, although his words were politically incorrect in today's sensitive environment. Maybe ND itself had been practicing some "racism" in their past admissions policies? What is the difference between Hornung saying that ND needed more "black athletes" and Jesse Jackson saying that college football needed more "black head coaches"? They are probably both true statements.

Whatever, I don't care enough. I'm done with a discussion about a school and alumni that mean no more to me than Northwestern- unless Xavier plays them sometime.

[Juice]

More concisely, I'm trying to say that if Notre Dame has any excuses for its mediocrity, academics isn't one of them.

I agree with you. While the Holtz era had less regard for academics than others, the standards were higher than almost all the other competitive programs in the country and he still won. It is a lame excuse.

Duke does it in basketball. Even though it is easier because the team is smaller and its easier to find smart, athletic players to fill one bball team verses a whole football team, but the challenge is still there.

I am a Notre Dame fan and I truly believe the only thing holding them back is the lack of a good coach. I may get ripped for saying this but I think Brian Kelly would be a good option.

[kyxu]

Well, ky, you've got six posts in this thread all lengthly defending ND.
And as for Paul Hornung, read negatively into what he said whatever you want, but what he said a few years ago was the truth. If they have the "black athletes" now as you said above, maybe the administration knew he was right, although his words were politically incorrect in today's sensitive environment. Maybe ND itself had been practicing some "racism" in their past admissions policies? What is the difference between Hornung saying that ND needed more "black athletes" and Jesse Jackson saying that college football needed more "black head coaches"? They are probably both true statements.

Whatever, I don't care enough. I'm done with a discussion about a school and alumni that mean no more to me than Northwestern- unless Xavier plays them sometime.

In what capacity have I defended Notre Dame??? All I've done is argued to narrow down the excuses at their disposal. That's hardly defending them.

I don't have to read anything into what Hornung said. It was facially racist. In making a remark that Notre Dame needed to lower its admissions standards to get the "black athlete" implies many things about young, black recruits these days, and not much of this implication is good.

I'm following your lead and quitting on this discussion as well. My main point was that the excuse that Notre Dame's admissions standards keep it from succeeding in football is a total cop-out. The fact that it hauls in top 5 recruiting classes is proof enough. The problem, or at least the primary one, is coaching.

[DC Muskie]

Here's another article that points out the academic challenge:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/andy_staples/11/25/notre.dame/index.html

You need everything to come together in order to have a highly successful football program. To dismiss the academic barriers is to deny the truth. This is a problem that goes beyond "coaching." I find it interesting that anyone would argue otherwise. If not, then this is the simplest problem to resolve. Throw a billion dollars at Bill Belechick and start winning games. Heck, recruit every kid from Elder to St. Ignatius and throw a ton of money at Urban Meyer and poof, winning just happens.

The landscape has changed. ND has not, and it's still trying to be relevant.

[vee4xu]

There's nothing more annoying than ignorant people thinking ND plays the three service academies every year.

I was simply making a point regarding a fractured and irrelevant schedule. Get off your high horse man.

[The Artist]

Here's another article that points out the academic challenge:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/andy_staples/11/25/notre.dame/index.html

You need everything to come together in order to have a highly successful football program. To dismiss the academic barriers is to deny the truth. This is a problem that goes beyond "coaching." I find it interesting that anyone would argue otherwise. If not, then this is the simplest problem to resolve. Throw a billion dollars at Bill Belechick and start winning games. Heck, recruit every kid from Elder to St. Ignatius and throw a ton of money at Urban Meyer and poof, winning just happens.

The landscape has changed. ND has not, and it's still trying to be relevant.

So, to be perfectly clear, you feel one reason they are not winning is because they are missing out on top recruits who may not get into Notre Dame for academic reasons, even though they continue to bring in top 5 classes?

I don't give two sh!ts about ND or this argument really - my dad likes them, that's the extent of my interest, but if the facts that have been stated are true, it does not appear that academics are hindering Notre Dame from getting good recruits, as they are consistently getting great classes.

[DC Muskie]

So, to be perfectly clear, you feel one reason they are not winning is because they are missing out on top recruits who may not get into Notre Dame for academic reasons, even though they continue to bring in top 5 classes?

I don't give two sh!ts about ND or this argument really - my dad likes them, that's the extent of my interest, but if the facts that have been stated are true, it does not appear that academics are hindering Notre Dame from getting good recruits, as they are consistently getting great classes.

There's the argument that guys get stars by their name because ND is recruiting them.

To me, everything has to be right in order to win. Coaching, support, talent, all of it. ND feels that it's mere existence will enable them to achieve winning. It takes a lot more work.

[DC Muskie]

Here's a follow up on the article you were responding to Artist.

Chicken And Egg With Irish Recruiting

Notre Dame fans flooded my inbox after I wrote last week that high academic standards will keep the Fighting Irish from recruiting the kind of classes necessary to compete for national titles and BCS bowl berths on an annual basis. Some e-mails were well-thought-out, persuasive arguments that most of the blame lies with the chicken (Irish coach Charlie Weis) and not the egg (recruiting). Those, I assume, came from actual Notre Dame grads, and while I respectfully disagree, I certainly understand their arguments.

Most of the e-mails, however, began something like this: "You are an idiot. Haven't you seen the recruiting rankings?"

Maybe I was a little too subtle last week. The recruiting rankings are wrong. Recruiting rankings, as they relate to Notre Dame, are artificially inflated for a couple of reasons.

First, Notre Dame's past reputation leads some evaluators to assume that if Notre Dame is recruiting a player, that player must be excellent. This has begun to change and will change more as Rivals.com and Scout.com bring in more evaluators with better trained eyes, but, at the moment, the reputation of the school recruiting the player plays a role in that player's ranking.

Second, Web sites use recruiting rankings to drive traffic. They engender debate, inspiring fans to take to the message boards to argue the merits of each player or class. That means more clicks, which means more money. Notre Dame, with its massive fan base and even more massive collection of anti-Domers, always creates interest. So the more prominent Notre Dame is, the more traffic the sites draw.

But maybe I was wrong. Maybe Notre Dame fans don't want to compete for national titles every year. Maybe they're satisfied with recruiting national titles, which, when your team gains only nine yards in the first half, don't mean very much.

[XU 87]

To me, everything has to be right in order to win. Coaching, support, talent, all of it. ND feels that it's mere existence will enable them to achieve winning. It takes a lot more work.

According to the recruiting services, ND has plenty of talent. And ND has plenty of support. So that leaves us with a coaching problem.

USC wasn't too good for about 20 years before they got Carroll. Alabama has been down for the last 15 years before they hired Saban. Oklahoma was down for about 15 years before they got Stoops. Nebraska won 3 national championships in the 90's and then fell off after Osborne retired.

So this tells me that no matter how strong the program, if the coach sucks, the team doesn't win. So if ND would go hire someone who can recruit and coach, they will again be a national power. It's really that simple.

[XU 87]

Maybe I was a little too subtle last week. The recruiting rankings are wrong. Recruiting rankings, as they relate to Notre Dame, are artificially inflated for a couple of reasons.





I will repeat that I'm not really an ND fan. I just find this entire debate a little interesting. But my understanding is that the Willingham's classes were ranked in the 30's and Weiss' classes were ranked in the top 5. Did the recruiting services hate Willingham but really like Weiss? Were the services interested in Weiss internet traffic but didn't want Willingham traffic?

[The Artist]

There's the argument that guys get stars by their name because ND is recruiting them.

To me, everything has to be right in order to win. Coaching, support, talent, all of it. ND feels that it's mere existence will enable them to achieve winning. It takes a lot more work.

Ok, that's fair. Again, I don't really have a dog in the fight, I was just going off what was said in this thread.

[vee4xu]

I saw on ESPN today that Charlie and the AD have a meeting next Monday to assess the just compeleted season. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting.

[XU 87]

I saw on ESPN today that Charlie and the AD have a meeting next Monday to assess the just compeleted season. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting.

The first question will be, "Will you agree to take a little less to buy you out?"

[Juice]

Maybe I was a little too subtle last week. The recruiting rankings are wrong. Recruiting rankings, as they relate to Notre Dame, are artificially inflated for a couple of reasons.

First, Notre Dame's past reputation leads some evaluators to assume that if Notre Dame is recruiting a player, that player must be excellent. This has begun to change and will change more as Rivals.com and Scout.com bring in more evaluators with better trained eyes, but, at the moment, the reputation of the school recruiting the player plays a role in that player's ranking.

I have seen this argument before, but I cannot agree with it. Notre Dame competes with USC for a lot of players like Manti Te'o, who is one of the top remaining players in the 2009 class. Shaq Evans was sought after by almost everyone.
It is hard to argue that players like Michael Floyd, Jimmy Claussen (who I hate), and Dayne Cryst had inflated rankings when just about everyone else was going after them. I could maybe see the inflation with some of the second-tier players that ND lands, but not the top guys.

I am a ND fan, and I know they suck. They are a far way off as long as Weis is there but with the right coach (cough, Brian Kelly, cough cough) I think they could definitely turn it around without joining a conference or drastically changing their academic standards.

[kyxu]

I'm going against my word, but I swear...this is the last time I comment on this thread. Honest.

I agree with 87, Artist and second Juice's post.

It is the coaching. We're not just talking about Notre Dame not competing for national championships every year -- we're also talking about Notre Dame falling flat on its face against inferior teams. Notre Dame should not lose to Navy...ever. Notre Dame should not lose to Syracuse...ever. San Diego State should not even be in a game against Notre Dame...ever. You don't need top 5 talent to steam roll these teams. The reality is that Notre Dame is routinely unprepared, unmotivated and underperforming against teams that are smaller and less athletic. That is coaching, not unrealistic academic standards.

So if coaching is the reason Notre Dame loses to teams they shouldn't, it's also likely the reason it can't even compete on the same field as the USCs, Ohio States and LSUs of the world.

Ok, that's it. I swear.

[XU 87]

Why would ND join a conference? How would that help the program? They have a tv contract. They can schedule whoever they want. And they are BCS eligible.

So why join a conference?

[vee4xu]

87, just curious and for the sake of some fun discussion. Do you think that the pollsters would monkey with their votes so as not to put ND in position to play in a BCS game? It was discussed among sportscasters I think the year they played OSU. It is almost like an independent politician who tries to get an agenda passed in a body that is split among Repubs and Dems. In ND's case, the BCS coaches can protect their respective coffers by simply amalgamating and not voting for ND in a way that puts them in position to be in a bowl. Now, if they are undefeated, then such a ploy isn't possible. But even with as few as one loss don't you admit that it is possible that BCS conference collusion could play a role in keeping them out of the money, so to speak?

[XU 87]

I'd respond but I don't know what "amalgamating" means.

[vee4xu]

I'd respond but I don't know what "amalgamating" means.

Joining/uniting. Sorry about that.

[Juice]

The following article gives a few reasons why I really dislike Charlie Weis, and most of it has to do with the recruiting visit.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-14-greenstein-charlie-weis-nnov14,0,7497934.column

I am not saying that ND should have got Pryor, because OSU was obviously the best place for him, but when a coach walks into a place and acts like that, it leaves little doubt to why he is not doing well. he is overly arrogant compared to his coaching skills.

[xudash]

For those of you who still believe in ND football, your premise is that Notre Dame is getting top talent now. It continues to recruit some of the same top talent as other top schools, with USC provided as an example of one of those. It's about the coach; about getting a top flight coach who could turn them around (e.g. Kelly from UC). Get the right coach like Alabama did in Saban, like Florida did in Meyer, like LSU did in the Madhatter.

We'll only know after the new coach is provided some time to make his mark on the program. That process may begin in earnest after Charlie sits down next week with the AD.

The problem at present, as I see it, is that ND doesn't have a deep pool of options from which to choose. Kelly is one. Would Georgia Tech's coach be an option? Even with that article I posted about Meyer I don't see him leaving Florida and the other SEC guys probably couldn't take the culture shock. After its recent choices, Notre Dame really needs to get this right (bing: Captain Obvious weighs in).

Even so, ratings be damned. I still see a talent gap that will be hard to correct. I see that between the top SEC teams and even the likes of Ohio State. Peter Carroll is doing it at Southern Cal as well. More than a few of the Big XII are there. Speed kills, and much of it is below the Mason Dixon line and probably will stay there.

[GuyFawkes38]

I think it would hurt ND's chances to get a top notch coach in the future if they don't give Weis 5 years. That, along with the buyout (I don't care what donors say, it's an issue), makes me think that there's a 99% chance Weis will be back next year.

I agree 100% with Xudash. There's a talent gap.

I know many disagree with this, but I think it stems from geography. ND is too reliant on recruits from Catholic high schools in the Midwest and Northeast. The best football players are coming from the south and west.

[DC Muskie]

It's really that simple.

They had a chance to sign Urban Meyer and he didn't want to go there. Good coaches don't think they can win at ND. That point seems simple.

[DC Muskie]

Why would ND join a conference? How would that help the program? They have a tv contract. They can schedule whoever they want. And they are BCS eligible.

So why join a conference?

In one of the articles it mentions that TV contract doesn't really mean much in 2008. The way they schedule doesn't help either. There is plenty of talent that doesn't end up at ND.

And being an independent hasn't helped either. If it has, where has the help come from?

ND wants to play on their own terms and when it doesn't work, everyone says it comes down to coaching.

[XUglow]

Seems we go through these same arguments about ND football every year. My thoughts about ND's rankings are that they ARE getting good players, but not necessarily good players that are also fast. It is possible to be very, very good in a small pond only to get exposed at the next level.

I watch a lot of high level D2 football. My son is a North Alabama grad, and we follow them closely. The talent level there and Valdosta State and a few other places is very good. However, there is generally one or two flaws per player. Maybe the quarterback has great skills, but he is 5'9" and 175 lbs. The running back may put the ball on the ground a bit too much. The receivers may drop one or two passes per game. Etc. There is generally a reason why these guys are not playing D1 football. Notre Dame players seem to fall into a similar category, and I don't know why. My guess is that the recruiting coaches are not seeing everything that they need to see.

When you see a USC running back leave a Notre Dame defensive back in the dust on his way to the end zone, you have to wonder how that defensive back can cover wide receivers at the D1 level. No coaching in the world is going to overcome that deficiency. You can put him in position, teach him great technique, and put him in a scheme that will help with his lack of speed, but on several plays per game, the guy is going to be on an island where he has got to close quickly or give up a big play.

[chico]

The talent is probably not as good overall as the ranking services thought, but there is still talent. Probably more talent than Alabama had two years ago when Saban took over.

A great coach in college can make up for lesser talent. Look at the schools that pop up on the radar from time to time - Texas Tech this year, UC this year, Bowling Green when Meyer was there. They all had one thing in common, and it wasn't great talent. It was that they had a great coaching staff.

Now I don't realistically think that a coach will change things overnight at ND, but it will not take long for a very good coach to change things. Great coaching beats great talent 99 times out of 100 - it keeps teams in games where they have no business, and it wins games for teams that should only be competitive.

[Juice]

Well my dreams of BK to ND are now over.

From C. Trent Rosecrans blog:

In the middle of a press confernece with Brian Kelly and Mike Thomas.

The two, along with Jeff Wyler and Nancy Zimpher, met this morning.

"I’m here to tell you, that I’m committed to the University of Cincinnati," Kelly said.

Also, "All I can say is, with all the speculation and the jobs that are out there, sometime or later, no means no. No one ever speaks in terms of forever and forever. There’s been a lot of interest in my services, but I want to be here at the University of Cincinnati for the right reasons."

* Mike Thomas said Nippert is being expanded.

More to come later.

[Masterofreality]

Beaknose said he was staying too.

[GuyFawkes38]

Well my dreams of BK to ND are now over.


Ugghhhhh. That's my assessment of Brian Kelly. Michigan State and Michigan turned down Kelly because they were concerned with his character.

I don't think ND would have seriously considered him (and my guess is that Kelly knew that).

[D-West & PO-Z]

The talent is probably not as good overall as the ranking services thought, but there is still talent. Probably more talent than Alabama had two years ago when Saban took over.

A great coach in college can make up for lesser talent. Look at the schools that pop up on the radar from time to time - Texas Tech this year, UC this year, Bowling Green when Meyer was there. They all had one thing in common, and it wasn't great talent. It was that they had a great coaching staff.

Now I don't realistically think that a coach will change things overnight at ND, but it will not take long for a very good coach to change things. Great coaching beats great talent 99 times out of 100 - it keeps teams in games where they have no business, and it wins games for teams that should only be competitive.

Exactly. There is also something to be said for being able to develop talent and take talented guys and make them better. Weis has apparently not been able to do that. You cna have all the talent you want but if your coach sucks it doesnt matter. If I went to coach at USC next year we wouldnt lose only 1 or 2 games.

[jdm2000]

Reports from various outlets are that Weis is coming back next year.

I'm not an ND fan (not really a hater either though)--how do the ND fans on the board feel about that? Stoney? (I'm genuinely just curious.)

[D-West & PO-Z]

Reports from various outlets are that Weis is coming back next year.

I'm not an ND fan (not really a hater either though)--how do the ND fans on the board feel about that? Stoney? (I'm genuinely just curious.)

My roomate is diehard ND fan and he is not happy about it. But then one of my best friends who graduated from ND last spring wanted him to have one more yr. From what I can tell its a mixed reaction.

[XURunner85]

My dad is a ND alum and he and other alums are not happy and would love to see Wies gone...he says there are enough alums to have paid off the buyout...I figured he would be back for another year...I also say that Clauson will not be the QB next year...the red shirt freshman from California ( I believe he was the #1 QB coming out of HS last year) will be the starter....the offense will then fire up some points and yards.....

[Juice]

As a ND fan (no connection whatsoever with the school, but as a XU fan, who else would I support?), I want Weis gone because giving him another year is just delaying the inevitable in my opinion. I think they are giving him another year for two reasons. One, his recruiting classes have been ranked very highly (do not want start another argument of why or how they are so high, just pointing out that they are) and two, because ND wants to give Weis another year because they looked bad in how the handled the Willingham situation.

As far as Claussen goes, I would like to see him benched. He came in as a cocky SOB (signing his LOI at the Hall of Fame while showing up in a stetch limo with his hair gelled like a fruitcake) and he has yet to prove that he deserves the job. Brady Quinn was much farther along than Claussen. Dayne Cryst (sp?) is the QB you are talking about Runner, and I would like to see him compete for the job. He also is being redshirted so he will have some years after the Claussen era if doesn't win the job now.

[Cheesehead]

Notre Dame is like UD basketball. They were good at one time but everyone else is passing them by. They haven't won a bowl game in 15 years and they haven't beaten anyone w/ a winnng record this season. They are just not very good but Chuck is a genius. He'll tell you so.

[Juice]

Something more to add to inflame the ND recruit debate.

From Stewart Mandel's mailbag on SI.com:


I was wondering if there has ever been a team in the history of college football with so many top recruits that has failed to perform as much as Note Dame has this year. They looked completely outmatched against USC -- it was truly pathetic. I am perplexed, can Notre Dame's coaching be that bad?
-- Marc N., Channahon, Ill.

Based on comments like these, you would think Weis is the first coach in the history of the school to have his highly ranked recruiting classes turn out to be busts. News flash, people: Notre Dame, with few exceptions, has always landed supposedly top-notch recruits.

Case in point: SuperPrep rated Weis' past three classes No. 2, No. 10 and No. 9, respectively. Impressive. Guess how that publication rated Bob Davie's first three classes (1997-99)? No. 9, No. 3 and No. 8. Almost identical. Just how his winning percentage (.583) was almost identical to Weis's (.571).

As best I can tell, the only Notre Dame recruiting class of the past 15 years that actually lived up to its billing was Willingham's 2003 class, which included Brady Quinn, Jeff Samardzija, Chinedum Ndukwe and John Carlson -- and which SuperPrep ranked fifth. Whether that same core of players would have wound up reaching consecutive BCS bowls without Weis, we'll never know. All we know for sure is that Weis' current group of players is not very good.

Is part of that poor coaching? Obviously. But that can't be the whole explanation. I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague Andy Staples, who wrote recently that Notre Dame's recruits have been inherently overrated for years ... simply because they're being recruited by Notre Dame. Would you believe that in 2006, James Aldridge was a higher-rated running back than LeSean McCoy and Knowshon Moreno? I'm sorry, but that's not a case of "lack of development" -- McCoy and Moreno are simply much, much better athletes.

It's the same phenomenon in basketball with Duke and its McDonald's All-Americans. Basically, if you're a recruit, and Duke likes you enough to sign you, you're going to be named a McDonald's All-American. Only about half of them wind up living up to the hype, but the difference is, that's still enough to win in basketball. In football, you need far more than just Golden Tate, Michael Floyd and Kyle Rudolph to pan out if you want to win football games.

That part about James Aldridge is unbelievable. He is not even the best RB on his team and maybe not even the 2nd best let alone considered even in the same universe as McCoy or Moreno.

[sylvester]

Crist will not be playing over Clausen. Clausen was the #1 recruit in the class and Crist was one the top QB recruits of his class. They were practically best friends in high school and are very familiar with each other. Crist is a bigger guy though. 6 foot 5 but an erratic passer. He has a cannon but not accurate and not consistent enough to take the job from Clausen. Clausen showed great improvement late in the season for ND.

Big pickup for the Irish in getting Manti Te'o. He should be a force if he decides to stay beyond his 2 year mission. It should be interesting to see how that works out. I believe he will redshirt his freshman year and take his mission after that. Return to play year or two and depending on his production he could be gone. Obviously a lot is riding on the decisions he makes as well as the way his play transfers to the cold midwest and harder talent.

[BlueGuy]

Supposedly they've had some really good recruiting classes these past few years. Imagine what they could do if they had a coach who could put them in position to succeed.

[Strange Brew]

Supposedly they've had some really good recruiting classes these past few years. Imagine what they could do if they had a coach who could put them in position to succeed.

alright haters take a deep breath. Weis' first highly rated class were sophs (Clausen's group) last year. That means that the best players on the team the last two years have been underclassmen. Just take into consideration that underclassmen accounted for more than 90% of the touchdowns last year.

ND will be better next year (schedule doesn't hurt either). If Weis does not win at least 9 and a major bowl game next year, then I believe he should be gone.

[XUglow]

alright haters take a deep breath. Weis' first highly rated class were sophs (Clausen's group) last year. That means that the best players on the team the last two years have been underclassmen. Just take into consideration that underclassmen accounted for more than 90% of the touchdowns last year.

ND will be better next year (schedule doesn't hurt either). If Weis does not win at least 9 and a major bowl game next year, then I believe he should be gone.

Actially, the class before Clausen's was #5 nationally according to Scout, so it should have been a solid football team last year with 3 solid recruiting years under CW's belt. CW should be in the same boat with Urban Meyer. UF won the NC with 7 seniors total on the whole team and no seniors on the 2 deep charts on defense. These days, most really good juniors opt for the NFL Draft, so the "lack of senior leadership" card really shouldn't be played.

[Strange Brew]

Actially, the class before Clausen's was #5 nationally according to Scout, so it should have been a solid football team last year with 3 solid recruiting years under CW's belt. CW should be in the same boat with Urban Meyer. UF won the NC with 7 seniors total on the whole team and no seniors on the 2 deep charts on defense. These days, most really good juniors opt for the NFL Draft, so the "lack of senior leadership" card really shouldn't be played.

Name a junior on that team..............I'm a fan and none of significance come to mind. The main issue is the lack of upperclassmen leadership on the O and D lines.

[kyxu]

Name a junior on that team..............I'm a fan and none of significance come to mind. The main issue is the lack of upperclassmen leadership on the O and D lines.

Pretty much all the notable juniors on that team (Demetrius Jones, Zach Fraser, Konrad Reuland) transferred out. James Aldridge has battled injuries, and Sam Young has battled expectations. It was a massive class that has had trouble living up to the hype, so far.

[Stonebreaker]

Weis switched up the offense a little bit, but I really liked Sergio brown and McCarthey. They really came on last year. Anyways, the Irish finally have depth at just about every position, which has hurt them in the past 4 years.
Next year will be more like Hawaii, and less like Syracuse.