Way to stay Klassy ND

[pickledpigsfeet]

I love how Notre Dame fans get on their high horse talking about their high standards for their athletes, school, program, etc. only to see their own students and fans throwing snowballs at their own team during a loss, hitting one already injured player and a security person among others.
Face it ND, you're team and program aren't what they used to be and likely won't be that again. Times have changed, wake up and smell the loses.

[golfitup]

ND has lost to Pitt and Syracuse. Apparently, effing UC football has passed Notre Dame as a program.

[GuyFawkes38]

I can't stand ND.

But I'm not going to lie. Part of me thinks the whole snowball incident is funny.

[GuyFawkes38]

And I must say, I don't buy the argument pushed by ND backers that the football program will rise again once they have the right coach.

Besides OSU, every program in the northern half of the country has dropped considerably for the past 15 years. Just look at the Big 12 conference. The Big 12 south is stronger than the Big 12 north. Or look at how the SEC dominates the Big Ten in head to head bowl games.

ND can't escape this. The south is just better at college football than the north.

[BiggieXU]

And I must say, I don't buy the argument pushed by ND backers that the football program will rise again once they have the right coach.

Besides OSU, every program in the northern half of the country has dropped considerably for the past 15 years. Just look at the Big 12 conference. The Big 12 south is stronger than the Big 12 north. Or look at how the SEC dominates the Big Ten in head to head bowl games.

ND can't escape this. The south is just better at college football than the north.
I'm pretty sure the Big Ten and SEC are 9-9 against each other in the last 5 years in bowl games. Don't be fooled by OSU.

[GuyFawkes38]

Biggie, that record might be true.

Still, I don't think anyone will argue that the Big Ten and SEC are about equal (especially at the top of the conferences).

Below is a list of the number of current NFL players from each state (I apologize about the formatting).

This list is the key reason why ND is struggling and the Big Ten sucks. Less populous southern states are ahead of midwest and northeastern states.




State Number
CALIFORNIA 199
FLORIDA 179
TEXAS 176
GEORGIA 90
OHIO 78
LOUISIANA 76
PENNSYLVANIA 58
MICHIGAN 50
VIRGINIA 49
SOUTH CAROLINA 48
MISSISSIPPI 46
ILLINOIS 45
NEW JERSEY 45
NORTH CAROLINA 45
ALABAMA 44
WASHINGTON 40
TENNESSEE 33
NEW YORK 31
MARYLAND 28
ARIZONA 23
IOWA 23
MISSOURI 23
OKLAHOMA 23
ARKANSAS 21
MASSACHUSETTS 18
COLORADO 17
WISCONSIN 17
OREGON 15
INDIANA 14
NEBRASKA 14
KANSAS 13
MINNESOTA 13
HAWAII 12
KENTUCKY 12
UTAH 11
WASHINGTON, DC 8
IDAHO 7
NEVADA 7
CONNECTICUT 6
WEST VIRGINIA 4
DELAWARE 3
MONTANA 2
NEW MEXICO 2
NORTH DAKOTA 2
SOUTH DAKOTA 2
WYOMING 2
ALASKA




Most kids from Florida don't want to play at Notre Dame or Michigan.

[dc_x]

ND gets to travel to LA to play USC next week.....good luck with that.

[BiggieXU]

I don't disagree that the SEC seems better the past few years, it's just that the head to head records don't exactly show dominance, except in the championship of course.

[AdamtheFlyer]

Biggie, that record might be true.

Still, I don't think anyone will argue that the Big Ten and SEC are about equal (especially at the top of the conferences).

Below is a list of the number of current NFL players from each state (I apologize about the formatting).

This list is the key reason why ND is struggling and the Big Ten sucks. Less populous southern states are ahead of midwest and northeastern states.







Most kids from Florida don't want to play at Notre Dame or Michigan.

That's a common misconception. NFL talent doesn't necessarily equate to college success. Just look at the Heisman trophy. Most Heisman winners, especially at QB, do almost nothing in the pros.

You can even look at the great USC teams in recent history. Leinart still can't crack the starting lineup, Bush is a playmaker but an average RB, their WRs have largely been average or worse in the NFL. Carroll built USC by building a roster 3 deep with great college players. Other than some defensive front 7 folks, they really aren't dominating when they get to the NFL. The Palmer/Polamalu team just before the title pushing teams probably had more NFL talent.

It's about good college talent, great coaching, and a great college quarterback. The 05 ND team had a great college QB, and thus a pretty good team despite being severely outmanned against USC (a game they win without the Bush Push) and OSU in the Fiesta Bowl.

Notre Dame is a great QB from being a contender again, even though the surrounding talent appears lacking in comparison to top teams. Claussen has shown flashes, and maybe he's that guy the next two years. Or maybe Crist is.

[GuyFawkes38]

That's a common misconception. NFL talent doesn't necessarily equate to college success. Just look at the Heisman trophy. Most Heisman winners, especially at QB, do almost nothing in the pros.

You can even look at the great USC teams in recent history. Leinart still can't crack the starting lineup, Bush is a playmaker but an average RB, their WRs have largely been average or worse in the NFL. Carroll built USC by building a roster 3 deep with great college players. Other than some defensive front 7 folks, they really aren't dominating when they get to the NFL. The Palmer/Polamalu team just before the title pushing teams probably had more NFL talent.

It's about good college talent, great coaching, and a great college quarterback. The 05 ND team had a great college QB, and thus a pretty good team despite being severely outmanned against USC (a game they win without the Bush Push) and OSU in the Fiesta Bowl.

Notre Dame is a great QB from being a contender again, even though the surrounding talent appears lacking in comparison to top teams. Claussen has shown flashes, and maybe he's that guy the next two years. Or maybe Crist is.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really making the argument that the USC teams which killed ND by 40+ points were overrated. And that ND has all the real College Football talent.

I don't buy this. So your argument is that NFL talent isn't that important. The SEC, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 10 might have the NFL talent (and all the season ending Top 10 rankings). But the Big 10 and ND have great college football talent who won't make it to the NFL. And that's enough to compete in the future.

Come on now!!!!!!!!!!! Lets be real here. That non-NFL talent at ND and in the Big 10 sucks. That non-NFL talent at ND and the Big 10 hasn't brought them anywhere in the past 15 years.

[jdm2000]

This post is ridiculous. Are you really making the argument that the USC teams which killed ND by 40+ points were overrated. And that ND has all the real College Football talent.

I don't buy this. So your argument is that NFL talent isn't that important. The SEC, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 10 might have the NFL talent (and all the season ending Top 10 rankings). But the Big 10 and ND have great college football talent who won't make it to the NFL. And that's enough to compete in the future.

Come on now!!!!!!!!!!! Lets be real here. That non-NFL talent at ND and in the Big 10 sucks. That non-NFL talent at ND and the Big 10 hasn't brought them anywhere in the past 15 years.

With each succeeding post it becomes clearer and clearer that you don't know much about college football, beyond what you're able to parrot from ESPN and the like. You said a lack of NFL talent is why the "northern" teams can't compete with the southern teams. Adam then pointed out that in college football, winning often doesn't turn on NFL talent, and gave the example of USC, arguing that the better "NFL talent" my have been on the Carson Palmer/Troy Polamalu team that didn't even get the chance to play for the national title.

I like how you dismiss out-of-hand the fact that the SEC and B10 are 9-9 in their last eighteen bowl games. How much of that ESPN/SEC kool-aid have you been drinking? Apparently only the bowl games with the teams at the top of conference matter...but I thought the SEC's big thing was that it's so tough, top to bottom, that no other team or conference can compete? It's amazing that teams like Michigan and Wisconsin are even able to make it out of the tunnel on to the field for their bowl games with the SEC, let alone win.

One more thing: If it's all about what state you're in and where your players come from, why is it that all those ACC schools in southern states really suck? Georgia Tech is in Georgia--shouldn't it automatically be great at football? Mississippi and Mississippi State, Tennessee, Arkansas--it's a mind-boggler that they aren't in competition for the national championship right now.

[GuyFawkes38]

wow. I'm a huge Big Ten fan (Michigan specifically)

But I have the balls to admit the SEC is playing better football right now (and for the past 15 years).

If you guys don't want to admit it, fine. be ignorant. call it an "espn conspiracy" or whatever. And yeah, NFL talent is overrated. Who needs NFL speed. ND has been showing the world that it's not necessary.

[GuyFawkes38]

JDM. Let me get this straight. Your saying that the Big Ten has been better than the SEC for the past 15 years? And you see no decline in the football talent in the Big Ten vs the SEC?

[GuyFawkes38]

God!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This thread is so frickon ridiculous.

I know its natural to have some Big Ten homers on this board. But come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AdamtheFlyer]

This post is ridiculous. Are you really making the argument that the USC teams which killed ND by 40+ points were overrated. And that ND has all the real College Football talent.

Quite the opposite. They were insanely good college teams loaded three or four deep at every position. But in terms of NFL talent, which you claimed is the key to college success...they didn't have as much as most people think. Leinart, Jarrett, Mike Williams, Reggie Bush...all supposed to be great NFL players. Some USC defensive players have become really good, but not many. Lendale White might be the best NFL performer of the bunch to date, and he's strictly a goal line back.NFL talent and College talent are two entirely different animals. Look at Tim Tebow. Dominant in college, but almost universally believed to be a marginal NFL prospect at best.

ND has been putting people in the NFL at a decent clip and haven't threatened a national title in how long?

Ohio State has been beaten soundly in their last three big games against teams from other conferences, with a team loaded with NFL talent. I'd venture to say they had as much or more NFL talent on the field as Florida, LSU, and USC. Clearly, that's not why they were beaten. They were simply beaten by better college teams. And in the last two games especially...had sub-par QBing from Boeckman.

[GuyFawkes38]

ok, I think my head is going to explode.

It's true that some skilled position players drafted turn out to be duds.

But from that, I don't see how you can dismiss that list I posted earlier in the thread. Less populous states like Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana are producing more NFL players than Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin etc...

The south is producing better players. Yes, Tebow might not make a great pro. Yes, Leinart sucks at the NFL level. But most of the players we are dealing with here are not skilled position offensive players (where such dissapointments typically occur).

The south is better at football. That's the bottom line. You guys can ignore that if you want. But it's still the reality of the situation.

[jdm2000]

JDM. Let me get this straight. Your saying that the Big Ten has been better than the SEC for the past 15 years? And you see no decline in the football talent in the Big Ten vs the SEC?

This is what I love about you on this message board, Lasser. Where did I make any of these comments? 15 years? Or me saying the Big Ten is better than the SEC? Nowhere at all.

Look, my point is that I don't buy into the SEC as the be-all end-all of college football. Any league where Mississippi State can win games while at the same time getting pounded by mediocre ACC teams like Ga. Tech isn't the unstoppable juggernaut its fans make it out to be. The conference seems to be living on hype more than results this year, given the atrocious play of Tennesse, former top-10 teams Auburn and LSU, and the rest of a seriously flawed conference. Tell me, would Vandy have risen to 13th in the polls if it played in any other conference? Nope. Like I said, I'm not drinking the kool-aid on this one. Sorry.

That doesn't mean I think the Big 10 is better than the SEC, and it absolutely has nothing to do with whether there is more "football talent" in the SEC vs. the Big 10. Adam made the point that there's a difference between college football and pro football talent, but you don't want to deal with that. Much like X has guys that may be considered to have great college bb talent, but won't be playing in the league. Those type of guys can make a difference in a game played by 20 year old kids.

[GuyFawkes38]

I guess we can all agree to disagree.

I don't think the SEC is overrated (and I say that as a diehard Michigan fan). And as you acknowledged in your post, most people believe the SEC is better than the Big Ten. And the SEC produces more NFL players. And that might not matter to you, but it matters to me. It certainly seems like a significant benchmark to me.

[Stonebreaker]

I love how Notre Dame fans get on their high horse talking about their high standards for their athletes, school, program, etc. only to see their own students and fans throwing snowballs at their own team during a loss, hitting one already injured player and a security person among others.
Face it ND, you're team and program aren't what they used to be and likely won't be that again. Times have changed, wake up and smell the loses.


You're going to attribute a handful of student's/fan's actions to an entire fan base? Not sure that is either fair or sensible.

[jdm2000]

But from that, I don't see how you can dismiss that list I posted earlier in the thread. Less populous states like Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana are producing more NFL players than Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin etc...



I know you and I have been down this road before, but just for the heck of it:

Illinois: 5th in population, 12.8 million people
Georgia: 9th in population, 9.5 million people
Indiana: 15th in population, 6.3 million people
Wisconsin: 20th in population, 5.6 million people
South Carolina: 24th in population, 4.4 million people
Louisiana: 25th in populatoin, 4.3 million people
Iowa: 30th in population, 3 milion people
Mississippi: 31st in population, 2.9 million people

Those states you listed are actually pretty comparable population-wise. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that kids in the north are more likely to be involved in other sports?

[AdamtheFlyer]

ok, I think my head is going to explode.

It's true that some skilled position players drafted turn out to be duds.

But from that, I don't see how you can dismiss that list I posted earlier in the thread. Less populous states like Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana are producing more NFL players than Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin etc...

The south is producing better players. Yes, Tebow might not make a great pro. Yes, Leinart sucks at the NFL level. But most of the players we are dealing with here are not skilled position offensive players (where such dissapointments typically occur).

The south is better at football. That's the bottom line. You guys can ignore that if you want. But it's still the reality of the situation.

I don't doubt that they're producing more good players now, and I'd say they've been producing more good players for decades. The north, save Ohio and Pennsylvania, has leaned toward basketball states forever.

The problem with your argument is the NFL comment. It doesn't matter. That's not why they are good.

UNC and NCSt have produced a lot of nFL talent...and haven't sniffed the BCS by and large. Florida State and Miami have continued to produce NFL players even though they haven't sniffed a national title in over 5 years.

If you had just said "The south produces better talent as a whole" we wouldn't have an argument. Instead, you used the NFL, and then got your panties in a bunch when proven to be off base.

For the record:

Notre Dame - 33 current NFL players
Florida- 33 current NFL players

See? The southern teams individually do not produce more NFL talent than northern teams by default. As a whole? Sure. But each team can only take and play so many kids. Florida is not the best team in the country because they produce a plethora of NFL draft picks.

[GuyFawkes38]

Adam, I think it's time we agree to dissagree.

The number of Florida and ND players in the NFL surprises me.

I still think it's important to look at which schools in the longrun produce the most NFL players. It's hard to win without that top talent. And that top talent is coming from the south.

I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I read a Lou Holtz interview not too long ago in which he argues that it's crucial for ND to establish recruiting networks beyond the Catholic high schools of the Midwest and Northeast, into the deep south.

[Juice]

Adam, I think it's time we agree to dissagree.

The number of Florida and ND players in the NFL surprises me.

I still think it's important to look at which schools in the longrun produce the most NFL players. It's hard to win without that top talent. And that top talent is coming from the south.

I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I read a Lou Holtz interview not too long ago in which he argues that it's crucial for ND to establish recruiting networks beyond the Catholic high schools of the Midwest and Northeast, into the deep south.

Lou is right, which is why ND is getting a lot more kids from California. Jimmy Claussen was from California and they hosted a recruit from Hawaii this weekend as well. He will probably choose USC now after witnessing the game this weekend.