public service's voice in Cincinnati

[XU2424]

Do they deserve to be able to voice an opinion??? I bring this to the XH round table because of today's hearing with the police officer who is in front of the city today pleading his case. So, should an employee of the city, more specifically the fire department or police department, be able to voice his opinion about the elections/his choice in public or to the media?

[Frambo]

as long as they are off duty they should be able to.

[XU2424]

why not on duty?

[Kahns Krazy]

why not on duty?

Well, quite simply, because that's not what we taxpayers are paying the public servant to do.

Where the line gets blurrier is between casual conversation about current events and campaigning.

I am not familiar with the specifics in this case.

[Snipe]

Is there a link to this anywhere? I am not familiar with the specifics either.

I tend to agree with Frambo and Khans Krazy. I would also prefer them to be out of uniform if it was my choice. I would be interested in hearing the actual arguments.

[ATL Muskie]

Is there a link to this anywhere? I am not familiar with the specifics either.

I tend to agree with Frambo and Khans Krazy. I would also prefer them to be out of uniform if it was my choice. I would be interested in hearing the actual arguments.


In other words, we have to wait until 2AM in order to get a full Snipe opinion on the matter.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think Snipe and Thor's after midnight posts should contain a disclaimer about what alcohol they've consumed in the evening.

I'm envisioning a modification of the device you have to blow into before starting your car if you're a chronic drunk driver.

[XU2424]

Is there a link to this anywhere? I am not familiar with the specifics either.

I tend to agree with Frambo and Khans Krazy. I would also prefer them to be out of uniform if it was my choice. I would be interested in hearing the actual arguments.

working on getting a link for you all...my fault on the delay.

[XU2424]

http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=5649
I watch the news on WCPO, yet couldn't find the article on their site. So..this is the best I could find.

[DC Muskie]

Well, quite simply, because that's not what we taxpayers are paying the public servant to do.

Where the line gets blurrier is between casual conversation about current events and campaigning.

I am not familiar with the specifics in this case.

I think this is also of an extension of not allowing the military to speak out politically as well. Having public servants like this speak out one way or another is not a good thing to have in a representative government.

[MADXSTER]

Just throwing it out there.....

How about when the FOP endorses a judge?

[DC Muskie]

Just throwing it out there.....

How about when the FOP endorses a judge?

That's a good point. Not sure. Or when they endorse anyone.

That's a really good point actually.

[PM Thor]

Just throwing it out there.....

How about when the FOP endorses a judge?

That is the union, not a representative of the city or government.

As for whether I, or any other public servant, should be able to voice an opinion about politcal positions and the whatnot (personally endorsing a candidate), I definitely believe that we should NOT be allowed to do so while in uniform or on duty.

Believe it or not, some people in the community actually respect police and fire, and in many cases, what public servants say is taken with more respect simply because of the uniform and position. By opining about politics, while on duty or in uniform, they (we) are abusing the respect given to our positions and using those positions for political gain. Also, if someone disagrees with our position, it undermines the authority naturally given to police and fire in other respects.

Plus the guy has a born loser in the case. If he is part of the FOP, then I am pretty sure it is written into their contract about no political opinions while on duty. I believe that it is written into our contract too, but I can't find the wording. It might be in General Orders, which is recognized under the contract also.

Once a public servant is sworn in, you lose certain rights that others take for granted. Sure, it would be nice to be able to endorse a candidate one way or another while on duty, but, being a representative of the city while working, I can't do that.

[Kahns Krazy]

Just throwing it out there.....

How about when the FOP endorses a judge?

I'm totally fine with the FOP announcing endorsements in an official capacity. I think if a judge has earned the respect of the FOP, I'd like to know about it.

For individuals, not so much. I'm really glad to see what Thor posted above. I'm glad they explicitly cover this.

[Fred Garvin]

[B][COLOR="Navy"]

Believe it or not, some people in the community actually respect police and fire, and in many cases, what public servants say is taken with more respect simply because of the uniform and position.

This explains why McCain is going to wear his old flight suit to tonight's debate.

[MADXSTER]

Thor,

What about being off duty but in uniform??

[PM Thor]

Thor,

What about being off duty but in uniform??

Nope. While in uniform you are still representing the government body. I can't speak for any other body, but for Cincy Fire, if you are going to be seen in any political capacity (or heck a Gold Star commercial, or speaking in front of city council in an unofficial capacity), you have to be out of uniform.

Now with that being said, being out of uniform means you can wear your gear, just so long as it doesn't have the city logo or CINCINNATI anywhere on it. It's a grey area. Last go around, some candidate was endorsed by IAFF 48, and some firefighters were in the ad, but they had on union navy blue shirts, not city supplied uniforms, thus no problem.

[XU2424]

What about this Thor...your sitting around the fire house and you and the guys are talking about the candidates. Its a hot day and the truck doors are wide open you guys are just outside of the house in your chairs, Joe Schmoe walks by and hears you say "this or that" about one of our candidates. What then? What if he goes and says he heard Firefighter so and so say this or that?
I know when I was sitting around the team room or what not we used to talk about that stuff. Now, my team rooms were off limits to anyone without a secret security clearance, but same concept. It just seems to be a real gray area.

[boozehound]

What about this Thor...your sitting around the fire house and you and the guys are talking about the candidates. Its a hot day and the truck doors are wide open you guys are just outside of the house in your chairs, Joe Schmoe walks by and hears you say "this or that" about one of our candidates. What then? What if he goes and says he heard Firefighter so and so say this or that?
I know when I was sitting around the team room or what not we used to talk about that stuff. Now, my team rooms were off limits to anyone without a secret security clearance, but same concept. It just seems to be a real gray area.

I really doubt that they would enforce the rule in that instance.

[PM Thor]

What about this Thor...your sitting around the fire house and you and the guys are talking about the candidates. Its a hot day and the truck doors are wide open you guys are just outside of the house in your chairs, Joe Schmoe walks by and hears you say "this or that" about one of our candidates. What then? What if he goes and says he heard Firefighter so and so say this or that?
I know when I was sitting around the team room or what not we used to talk about that stuff. Now, my team rooms were off limits to anyone without a secret security clearance, but same concept. It just seems to be a real gray area.

Well, we most definitely have some political discussions at the firehouse, since one guy is a hard core democrat, and one guy is a hard core republican. They go at it very nearly every tour. It's funny, because there are guys in the house who deliberately try to get them arguing, just to watch the fireworks. I am included in that.

As for sitting out front and talking politics, we try not to do that.

Oh and one guy (who is republican, like most of the guys) just put an Obama sticker on the hard core republicans truck last tour. He probably won't notice it until after the election....good times.

[wkrq59]

Thor, I'm with you and you have plenty of company in other professions.
I know for sure the NFL has a rule and I'm sure baseball does too, that if you endorse a product and do commercials for same YOU MAY NOT EVEN USE YOUR NAME (if you are well enough known, Brett Favre e.g.) WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE CLUB AND I BELIEVE A PORTION OF YOUR AD REMUNERATION GOES TO THE CLUB. You also may not wear any uniform or logo-bearing clothing if you don't share with the team and the NFL, which licenses its souvenirs and merchandise.
I believe the same applies to political endorsements.
As far back as I can remember, the FOP endorses political candidates ranging from locals to nationals.
Most policemen and firemen are relatively unknown as far as the general public is concerned. Don't explode Thor. Sometimes there is a blessing in anonymity.
Off duty and out of uniform, I see nothing wrong with any policeman or fireman endorsing a national or state candidate. I don't, however, believe any policeman or fireman should be required to donate to or endorse any candidate as a matter of policy. That in a sense is depriving them of the right to freely choose to support and in essence vote for.
Our police and firemen, who ought to be compensated the same as doctors and lawyers, especially lawyers, have enough trouble keeping their private and off-duty lives private.
We were prohibited from publicly endorsing or campaigning for any official, period as representing the Cincinnati Post or Scripps Howard. The papers individually endorsed candidates with one exception. Every four years the editors of all the chain's papers would meet to endorse a presidential candidate.
Those prohibitions were done for two reasons, to protect our privacy and safeguard our objectivity and impartiality which was absolutely necessary for our credibility.