My honest complaint against soccer

[GuyFawkes38]

It has nothing to do with the femininity of the sport. I just wanted to post that ridiculous video of the Spanish Euro Cup celebration.

Here it is: I can't stand the fact that the scores of soccer games are often not representative or responsive to the play on the field. I have the same issue with hockey. In contrast to basketball where the score is linked almost directly to the play on the court (and the ability of the players), soccer outcomes often feel random.

Watching the shoot out finale between France and Italy in the past World Cup felt absurd. Italy won a shootout. And that was it. Thank god basketball is not reliant on throwing up some threes for tied games.

Edit: Also, isn't it undeniably true that often the most talented World Cup teams don't win the cup. I don't think that's true with basketball. There's simply less variables to throw the game off. Talent wins.

[muskienick]

God, help me! I totally agree with Guy on this (thankfully) single take.

[Stonebreaker]

The game was fun to play as a kid. Now, unless its Olympics (kinda like softball)...not much interest.

I will say this: Soccer chicks rule.

[MADXSTER]

Guy, I also have to agree.

I guess I'm one of the few who enjoy watching soccer. I have a lot of respect for people who can consistantly kick the ball forty-fifty yards right to the exact spot they want it to go.

It is frustrating though when one team clearly out plays and out hustles another team yet loses due to some freak play (the ball inadvertantly hits another player and goes in the goal).

[GuyFawkes38]

God, help me! I totally agree with Guy on this (thankfully) single take.

Ha!!! Yeah, I feel like the board is going to suddenly shutdown now.

[golfitup]

That's one of the reasons i love soccer. It's the only major team sport where one team can truly dominate the other and still lose. Makes for compelling theater.


Another big reason I like soccer is because there is no salary cap, but that's probably a conversation for another time.

[golfitup]

Oh, and I feel the point of the most talented team always winning needs to be clarified a bit. During the NBA playoffs the most talented team almost always wins the series, but that is not the case with college. Vastly overmanned teams in Villanova and NC State won national titles over Georgetown and Houston respectively and George Mason made it to the final four a few years ago. One of the great qualities of March Madness are the upsets during the early rounds that produce such great moments. (Valpo springs to mind)

[GuyFawkes38]

Oh, and I feel the point of the most talented team always winning needs to be clarified a bit. During the NBA playoffs the most talented team almost always wins the series, but that is not the case with college. Vastly overmanned teams in Villanova and NC State won national titles over Georgetown and Houston respectively and George Mason made it to the final four a few years ago. One of the great qualities of March Madness are the upsets during the early rounds that produce such great moments. (Valpo springs to mind)

There is some truth to that.

But I have won my share (4!!!) of NCAA pools over people who believe they can pick the underdogs. Underdogs are celebrated by the media, but statistically talent wins much, much more often in the NCAA tourney.

[dc_x]

I can't stand the fact that the scores of soccer games are often not representative or responsive to the play on the field.[/B] I have the same issue with hockey. In contrast to basketball where the score is linked almost directly to the play on the court (and the ability of the players), soccer outcomes often feel random.


This is the reason that soccer leagues (with the exception of MLS) determine champions based solely on a regular season. The EPL champion is determined by the number of points accumulated in a 38 game league schedule. No playoffs.

The World Cup is just a tournament and not representative of how most soccer competitions are organized.

[DC Muskie]

Here it is: I can't stand the fact that the scores of soccer games are often not representative or responsive to the play on the field. I have the same issue with hockey. In contrast to basketball where the score is linked almost directly to the play on the court (and the ability of the players), soccer outcomes often feel random.

Such an odd statement that confuses not only the spirit of play, but also the level of effort and actual talent on a particular day and match. It's almost like you expect Team A with the best talent should always win over Team B with lesser talent, and then are frustrated when the result is the opposite. Do you enjoy sports at all, or are you always frustrated when the underdog wins? Or do you have a certain number of times that allows yourself to enjoy an occasional upset. Like I said, so odd.



Watching the shoot out finale between France and Italy in the past World Cup felt absurd. Italy won a shootout. And that was it. Thank god basketball is not reliant on throwing up some threes for tied games.

To equate shooting a free throw to taking a penalty kick demonstrates your lack of understanding of the sport and puts you on the same plane as Mike Lupica. Look, for anyone to complain that soccer lacks scoring, then turn around and say that penalty kicks is absurd, just wants to complain about everything in the sport. So you don't like scoring, but don't like people trying to score to determine the match. Okay. I understand...


Also, isn't it undeniably true that often the most talented World Cup teams don't win the cup. I don't think that's true with basketball. There's simply less variables to throw the game off. Talent wins.

No. No it's not. I despise this argument. Talent doesn't mean squat if the play on the field doesn't match it. And that's the point. As mentioned before, the WC is decided by what happens at a particular time, not basketball where it's decided over a course of weeks. What's the fun in that? Do you enjoy watching a seven game series where the home team wins every time? Great the team with more talent won! It just took us 4 weeks in June to find out. Give me 90 minutes, two teams and whomever puts the ball in the back of the net more, wins.

[Juice]

Oh, and I feel the point of the most talented team always winning needs to be clarified a bit. During the NBA playoffs the most talented team almost always wins the series, but that is not the case with college. Vastly overmanned teams in Villanova and NC State won national titles over Georgetown and Houston respectively and George Mason made it to the final four a few years ago. One of the great qualities of March Madness are the upsets during the early rounds that produce such great moments. (Valpo springs to mind)


I agree. Does anyone actually believe the NY Giants were the best team in the NFL last year? Does anyone actually think that all the wild card teams that win the World Series are the best teams when they cannot even win their division?

I love soccer and do agree that shootouts suck, but until a better solution comes along I dont know what else can be done.

[DC Muskie]

I agree. Does anyone actually believe the NY Giants were the best team in the NFL last year? Does anyone actually think that all the wild card teams that win the World Series are the best teams when they cannot even win their division?

I love soccer and do agree that shootouts suck, but until a better solution comes along I dont know what else can be done.

Two things.

Did the Giants somehow prove they weren't the best team in the NFL by winning the Super Bowl? If winning the Super Bowl means you are the champion, doesn't that mean they were in fact the best team?

You first argument is really about the merits of allowing non divisional winners into the playoffs. If you think they shouldn't belong, then that is a different argument.

Second thing is this...what other solution is there? Stop playing the World Cup? The World Cup begins years before with qualifying, so that the most deserving, or best teams advance to the playoffs. You have three matches to prove that you belong in the next session. Then it's one and done. I think it's much better then series of games.

[Tardy Turtle]

equate shooting a free throw to taking a penalty kick

I think what he's saying is that using an individual skills competition (outside the context of the game itself) to decide a match in a team sport is dumb.

And I agree.

Soccer's problem is that its low-scoring nature does not lend itself to an easy "overtime" remedy, so I see why penalties after extra time is how they do it. But is still at least loosely analogous to deciding a basketball game with free throws or baseball game with homerun derby.

[Jumpy]

The game was fun to play as a kid. Now, unless its Olympics (kinda like softball)...not much interest.

I will say this: Soccer chicks rule.

Until they quit playing and all that muscle turns to fat.

[Kahns Krazy]

Two things.

Did the Giants somehow prove they weren't the best team in the NFL by winning the Super Bowl? If winning the Super Bowl means you are the champion, doesn't that mean they were in fact the best team?


Winning a championship does not mean you are the best team. It means you did what was necessary to win the championship. Most people would consider the championship the ultimate goal, so in that sense you are the most successful. I would define the best team as the one that had the best statistical chance to win, if that were somehow measurable.

Betamax was by nearly all measures a better format than VHS, but VHS won the 'championship. Does that make VHS better? No, but it made them the industry standard.

[DC Muskie]

I think what he's saying is that using an individual skills competition (outside the context of the game itself) to decide a match in a team sport is dumb.

And I agree.

Soccer's problem is that its low-scoring nature does not lend itself to an easy "overtime" remedy, so I see why penalties after extra time is how they do it. But is still at least loosely analogous to deciding a basketball game with free throws or baseball game with homerun derby.

But my point is when you are arguing that sport is boring because of lack of scoring, why do you then turn around and complain that the solution to inject scoring after two overtimes periods is also dumb?

The analogies to other sports is not applicable. Both basketball and baseball are built to score and can use their both their legs and hands to accomplish this point. Both take enormous amount of down time in play to allow them to continue in the same venue. In soccer the only solution other then penalties is to continue play until a golden goal. I would argue the same issues that that guy brings up became incredibly magnified.

Last week I played in a match that came down to penalties. I was the keeper and our team lost because I couldn't stop three of the shots. I tell you that after playing all of those minutes, playing another 20 minutes on top of another 20 minutes would have been nearly impossible. Penalties are much harder to defend, let alone take, then standing on a free throw line, or swinging for the fences. It takes much more mental effort then either of the opposite you have comparing them to.

[DC Muskie]

Winning a championship does not mean you are the best team.

That's ridiculous. Then why in the world would anyone follow sports if all they did was hand championships to teams that clearly, based on stats, weren't the best team? What's the point? If stats were the measurement of what the best team is, then stop right then and there and hand the trophy to them.


Betamax was by nearly all measures a better format than VHS, but VHS won the 'championship. Does that make VHS better? No, but it made them the industry standard.

If VHS ends up winning, then yes, their measurements were better then anyone else's. Who cares what arbitrary measurement you use, in the end there are winners and losers. The rest is just making shit up to try and justify why one lost and the winner is somehow unworthy.

[GuyFawkes38]

DCMuskie, I don't think anyone can deny that there is often a disconnect between the scoring of soccer and the performance on the field (much more so than basketball).

For example, Soccer games often end up 0-0 after a half. So did nothing happen that half? Did they just sit around on the field and watch the time go by? Of course not. Something happened. But the score didn't respond to it.

In my mind, it's a defect of the game.

But I understand how this defect is overcome. Soccer does have a nice rythem to it. It is in a sense a beautiful game. But it has a defect. it bothers me. And I think it bothers a lot of Americans who follow sports which score in a more responsive manner.

[DC Muskie]

There's no denying that Americans are impatient people. We want instant gratification and bigger and faster things. From our food, to our cars, to our women, to our sports. We want to score, drive through windows, hookers on demand, and muscle cars. Soccer, I understand doesn't fit in the mold of people who complain bout a basketball game played in the 70's and football games that are won 10-6.

But I'm not sure why you equate scoring with performance. Obviously the rules and play of the game make it difficult to score, so why is a 0-0 score a half a poor reflection of the performance? Would it be better if the score was 5-2 at half? Therefore we can visually see that one side is more dominant? Would a 1-1 score be more acceptable?

Look I get it the fact people think it sucks. Personally I don't care. Just don't be lazy about why you dislike it and run your mouth.

I enjoy a sport where you really have to earn a point. It's not going easy and when it does, it's pretty fun. Soccer at least has some great celebrations.

[GuyFawkes38]

I think most people "equate scoring with performance". It does seem to decide the victor of the game.

Don't get me wrong. There's a reason why tennis matches don't just add up all the points won by each player. Dividing the matches into games and sets enhances excitment. But soccer is a game which takes this concepts too far for my liking.

I do like a lot of aspects of soccer. I personally can't stand football and I'm beginning to prefer soccer.


(WHY ARE AMERICAN SOCCER FANS SO SNOOTY. This isn't a worldwide soccer phenomenon. In the rest of world, soccer is a blue collar, common denominator sport.

DCMuskie calls my arguments intellectually lazy. And he goes on to scold American sports fans for not understanding the subtleties of soccer. Americans need instant stimulation. Scoring good. Defense bad. blah, blah, blah. Come on).

[XU05and07]

They should reinstate the "golden goal" rule back into soccer games...always make OT tense

[DC Muskie]

I think most people "equate scoring with performance". It does seem to decide the victor of the game.

Right and you pointed out that that a 0-0 tie at halftime was a poor reflection. Now sure what standard you would use to make it a better reflection. 1-0 perhaps? To me, it demonstrates nothing other then that the game could be played well, or poorly. The same could be said about a basketball game well in the 60's at halftime. So again, I'm not sure why scoring is equal to performance. I could fall flat on on a my ass and score, does that make the game better? Is the act of scoring what you lust for, or crooked numbers on the scoreboard?


Don't get me wrong. There's a reason why tennis matches don't just add up all the points won by each player. Dividing the matches into games and sets enhances excitment. But soccer is a game which takes this concepts too far for my liking.

What concept is that? Making you earn a point?


(WHY ARE AMERICAN SOCCER FANS SO SNOOTY. This isn't a worldwide soccer phenomenon. In the rest of world, soccer is a blue collar, common denominator sport.

Exactly, so it cracks me up when people here start talking about about a faggy ass sport it is. One dude here likes the aspect of being a hooligan fan, one of the biggest blemishes on the sport, but for some reason embraced by Americans as "cool." It's not cool to die for your team simply because you are a moron with no brain cells. To me it's the Vanilla Ice of Sports fan. "Oh the game sucks, but man it's awesome to drink beer and act like I'm some kind of hooligan from Glasgow."


DCMuskie calls my arguments intellectually lazy. And he goes on to scold American sports fans for not understanding the subtleties of soccer. Americans need instant stimulation. Scoring good. Defense bad. blah, blah, blah. Come on).


Please remember, I didn't start threads that said, "Hey here's why I think Soccer is awesome and the rest of you can suck it." Or, "You knuckle dragging American Steriod using fans Pay Attention to my Brilliant analysis of soccer."

Basically you first asked if soccer was too pussy. Then you asked is soccer incapable of demonstrating it's performance level on the scoreboard. Do you see anyone asking these things about golf? Or lacrosse? Nope, for whatever reason it's always soccer.

This is the smack section and I'm having fun defending the sport that I enjoy.

[GuyFawkes38]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree on the importance of a representative and responsive scoring system. It's not just soccer. Hockey also drives me crazy. I highly value feedback. And in my opinion, that's the major area which bothers Americans most about soccer (Americans love stats...fantasy sports are built on it along with the national pastime, baseball).

Like I said in the OP, I do not question the toughness or talent of soccer players a bit.

edit: I guess I didn't exactly say it. but now I did.

[Tardy Turtle]

They should reinstate the "golden goal" rule back into soccer games...always make OT tense

QFT

(stupid 10 char. min.)

[xeus]

I bet Obama wins the majority of the "soccer vote".

[MADXSTER]

I bet Obama wins the majority of the "soccer vote".

LOL. Nothing like stirring the pot, eh Xeus.

[DC Muskie]

I bet Obama wins the majority of the "soccer vote".

Didn't Bush win the Soccer Mom vote in 2000?

I certainly hope so then that means middle class white women are going to put him in the White House.

[GuyFawkes38]

I was trying to find out what's behind the odd economics of sports ownership when I found this great blog post (from my favorite blogger) about the problem with soccer (http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/07/why_i_find_socc.html)


Why I find soccer boring

Do I have a theory for all of my idiosyncratic preferences? Well, with soccer it is simple. There is too much apparent noise in the data. Too many salleys and thrusts lead to immediate reversals. Moving the ball down the field generates information about the relative strength of the teams, and in theory that is interesting, but I am poorly equipped for interpreting this information. (I recall reading, with bewilderment, the claim that the French 1-0 victory over Brazil "wasn't even close.") To me all that back and forth looks random. In this regard soccer is like baseball, hockey, or perhaps even chess and Go. Only the cognoscenti know what is going on. In particular, the meaning of the drama is clearer when you grow up with it.

Basketball, my favorite sport, generates ongoing data but those results are marked by numbers, most notably points scored, but also rebounds, turnovers, steals, etc. It is far easier to approach a basketball game "cold" and figure it out on the fly. If you tune in during halftime, a few stats will indicate what is going on. It is the perfect sport for people who, like myself, don't have much time for sports.

Here is a good essay on whether soccer is boring. Read this too, it compares soccer and hockey.


I've actually grown to like soccer a lot. But yeah, I have the above issues with hockey.

[DoubleD86]

You know, I don't buy the Americans dislike soccer because of the lack of "proper representation" on the scoreboard argument. It is not rare to happen in baseball. It is not unbelievable to see one team with 10 hits and another with 4 but the score tied 2-2 or 3-3. That is not "proper representation" of the performance on the field. Teams often completely outplay the other, outhit, and play better defense yet still are tied or worse.

And don't tell me that hits counts as a countable stat in this instance, because in that case soccer has shots, shots on goal, corners, etc.

[Blueblob4life]

DC, I'm in full agreement with your viewpoint on this issue. And so what, Guy, if American Soccer (footbal/futbol) fans are a bit snooty? We actually watch the games consistently and can name most of Team USA when we're not playing in the World Cup. Yeah, call me an elitist or whatever, but soccer is a game that takes time to build, just like a baseball game does and there's always important dynamics that affect the overall flow of the game.

Take the World Cup final for example. The game came down to possession and while Spain dominated that category and shot the lights out of the place, whenever Netherlands came with a strong counter, it came in bursts and they provided a change in the pace of the game. Spain won because they kept up the pressure until the end, Netherlands held them off until the very end because they responded so well on defense but couldn't create as many chances on offense.

Furthermore, I think we're forgetting the most important part about the game, that it's much more of a team sport than basketball, specifically the NBA. One man can carry a team as long as his other guys are contributing even slightly. Soccer, not so much. Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, they all rely on their teammates for the perfect pass for most of their scoring. Sure, just like any superstar, they can make things happen on their own, but not in the same way that basketball players can.

We're simply ADD in our viewing of sports. We need the constant stimulation of something big happening and a play constantly developing. I love soccer, but I also love the major American sports because I can appreciate the different reasons for enjoying each one.

And let the record show that I predicted Espana to win the World Cup, right here on this very board. I will admit that I started off deciding between Spain and Brazil, then wound up choosing Spain.

[GuyFawkes38]

You know, I don't buy the Americans dislike soccer because of the lack of "proper representation" on the scoreboard argument. It is not rare to happen in baseball. It is not unbelievable to see one team with 10 hits and another with 4 but the score tied 2-2 or 3-3. That is not "proper representation" of the performance on the field. Teams often completely outplay the other, outhit, and play better defense yet still are tied or worse.

And don't tell me that hits counts as a countable stat in this instance, because in that case soccer has shots, shots on goal, corners, etc.

yep, that's what I'm going to tell you.

Sure, soccer might have that stuff. But it's more subjective (A baseball hit is a hit. A basket is a basket. A missed shot on goal could mean a lot of different things, did the goalie make a great save or did the shot slowly roll up to the goalie....it's hard to quantify that).

Baseball fans really do value individual accomplishment and stats. While a great soccer player on a crappy team is probably miserable, a great baseball player on an awful team likely feels okay. It's not ideal. But his hits and home runs are counted and revered.

[GuyFawkes38]

DC, I'm in full agreement with your viewpoint on this issue. And so what, Guy, if American Soccer (footbal/futbol) fans are a bit snooty? We actually watch the games consistently and can name most of Team USA when we're not playing in the World Cup. Yeah, call me an elitist or whatever, but soccer is a game that takes time to build, just like a baseball game does and there's always important dynamics that affect the overall flow of the game.

Take the World Cup final for example. The game came down to possession and while Spain dominated that category and shot the lights out of the place, whenever Netherlands came with a strong counter, it came in bursts and they provided a change in the pace of the game. Spain won because they kept up the pressure until the end, Netherlands held them off until the very end because they responded so well on defense but couldn't create as many chances on offense.

Furthermore, I think we're forgetting the most important part about the game, that it's much more of a team sport than basketball, specifically the NBA. One man can carry a team as long as his other guys are contributing even slightly. Soccer, not so much. Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, they all rely on their teammates for the perfect pass for most of their scoring. Sure, just like any superstar, they can make things happen on their own, but not in the same way that basketball players can.

We're simply ADD in our viewing of sports. We need the constant stimulation of something big happening and a play constantly developing. I love soccer, but I also love the major American sports because I can appreciate the different reasons for enjoying each one.

And let the record show that I predicted Espana to win the World Cup, right here on this very board. I will admit that I started off deciding between Spain and Brazil, then wound up choosing Spain.

I agree with most of this post. I've really grown to love watching world cup soccer. It's a lot of fun. Yes, it drives someone who loves numbers like myself a little crazy. But no sport is perfect.

On the other hand, its miserable to watch hockey on TV. There's way too much "noise".

[Three Point Pete]

I used to play soccer in elementary school, and I was one of the 700 million who watched the WC final match. I thought that it was boring. As was mentioned in an earlier post, the tournament is not what soccer is really about, just a showcase. There is a real difference in league play.

Probably most of us just don't relate to the soccer "thing". As we in this country are more exposed to the nuances and finer points of the game, I predict the numbers, stats and other analytical interest wiill increase as well. In the meantime, just have have fun every four years watching the "real world series".

[Kahns Krazy]

DC,And let the record show that I predicted Espana to win the World Cup, .

Why do American soccer fans insist on calling countries by names other than their American names? What the hell is Espana?

[SixFig]

My main complaints against soccer are laid out thusly. Feel free to counter them. Answer well and I might watch 3 minutes of the World Cup in four years.

1: Flopping: Really the least manly thing to do. There is no defense for it. My solution would be if you leave on a stretcher you can't come back ever, if you don't leave under your own power you can't come back for that half.

2: Ties: With the exception of elimination games there can be a tie. Why not just not play the game at all? There has got to be a good way to end every game. But just not complaint #3...

3: Shootouts: Shootouts may be fine for meaningless regular season games, but in critical games to decide the World Cup it is just stupid. Imagine if baseball had a home run hitting contest to decide the World Series, or if basketball had a 3 point contest. And half the time the damn goalie jumps the wrong way!

[Blueblob4life]

My main complaints against soccer are laid out thusly. Feel free to counter them. Answer well and I might watch 3 minutes of the World Cup in four years.

1: Flopping: Really the least manly thing to do. There is no defense for it. My solution would be if you leave on a stretcher you can't come back ever, if you don't leave under your own power you can't come back for that half.

2: Ties: With the exception of elimination games there can be a tie. Why not just not play the game at all? There has got to be a good way to end every game. But just not complaint #3...

3: Shootouts: Shootouts may be fine for meaningless regular season games, but in critical games to decide the World Cup it is just stupid. Imagine if baseball had a home run hitting contest to decide the World Series, or if basketball had a 3 point contest. And half the time the damn goalie jumps the wrong way!

I'll respond in order.

1. I hate it too, so very very much. It's been defended as giving the teams a much-needed respite for just a brief moment, but I think it's BS when you're basically paid to be on the move for 45 mins straight then you take a wuss dive. Man up is what I say every single time. I'll give you this one. Thank goodness Italy and France were knocked out early enough so that the later stages weren't too tainted with diving. Spain was a bit guilty at times though.

2. Ties showed a lot of parity in the field this year. There were teams that we all thought would do so well, i.e. England and France, but they didn't do so hot at all and their scores proved that. Yeah, it's not the most exciting end to an otherwise intense game, but it still proves that there's a relatively even skill distribution amongst a lot of the teams.

3. Ghana/Uruguay. Drama like no other because of the shootout and all that led up to it.

That's all I got.

[Blueblob4life]

Why do American soccer fans insist on calling countries by names other than their American names? What the hell is Espana?

Why does this bother you so? I'm simply respecting their country and its performance as a football club (does that bother you too?) by using the Spanish spelling and pronunciation. Espana translates to Spain, fyi. Does it also bother you that I spell it Brasil instead of Brazil when I talk about their team?

[DC Muskie]

Why do American soccer fans insist on calling countries by names other than their American names? What the hell is Espana?

Ha. There are so many funny things about these two sentences.

What exactly does the term "American names" mean?

[DC Muskie]

My main complaints against soccer are laid out thusly. Feel free to counter them. Answer well and I might watch 3 minutes of the World Cup in four years.

1: Flopping: Really the least manly thing to do. There is no defense for it. My solution would be if you leave on a stretcher you can't come back ever, if you don't leave under your own power you can't come back for that half.

2: Ties: With the exception of elimination games there can be a tie. Why not just not play the game at all? There has got to be a good way to end every game. But just not complaint #3...

3: Shootouts: Shootouts may be fine for meaningless regular season games, but in critical games to decide the World Cup it is just stupid. Imagine if baseball had a home run hitting contest to decide the World Series, or if basketball had a 3 point contest. And half the time the damn goalie jumps the wrong way!

My responses if you care:

1. Diving sucks. But I think people don't really understand how much less diving actually happens in the matches. I also think it's funny when people think when guys actually do get clipped and wince on the ground and then get back, probably have never had their foot stepped on by boots (cleats) while running full speed. Have you ever been spiked in your calf? If so, did that hurt?

2. Have you noticed how stupid the tie system has become in hockey? Does anyone understand the idea that you can get two points for winning after the third period ends in a tie? What's up with that? Ties are a great lever of competition. Remember, the season lasts forever and for many under-talented clubs they have more stacked in their favor if they play to win or tie, where a more talented club has it stacked against them, if they tie or lose. I actually think it's an interesting and fun concept. I'm not kidding, I have looked at matches, like against England and was excited we tied. Sounds weird I know.

3. Shootouts are pretty fun. I hate for them to be a way to end a match, but I have been involved in a few, and there can be the most intense thing ever.

Please, please, please a miilion times please...stop trying to compare shootouts to what would happen in other sports. Soccer is not like baseball or basketball or football, or whatever. Whatever analogy you can come up with, is not the same thing as soccer.

And the reason is, people who follow soccer don't ask:

Why is there not continuous play in baseball, basketball and baseball?

Why can't you throw out a football player for a certain number of penalty flags?

Why can't the kicker actually throw the ball into the uprights? Why must he kick it? Why is there kicking involved at all, since the ball is not shaped to kicked and game's fundamentals are based on running and throwing.

Why can't you goaltend in basketball? It would make it more exciting.

See all of these things are foolish, much like watering down the shootout to free throws or three pointers, or home runs, or field goal kicks.

Every sport has problems with their extra time. Soccer is no different there.

[Juice]

My responses if you care:

1. Diving sucks. But I think people don't really understand how much less diving actually happens in the matches. I also think it's funny when people think when guys actually do get clipped and wince on the ground and then get back, probably have never had their foot stepped on by boots (cleats) while running full speed. Have you ever been spiked in your calf? If so, did that hurt?



Yes, about a 1000 times and I never rolled around on the ground like a girl and then shot up like nothing happened. Most sports encourage their athletes to be tough and shake off an injury, soccer rewards you with free kicks and yellow cards to the guy who might or might not have fouled you. And I saying this from the perspective of a soccer player.

[DC Muskie]

Yes, about a 1000 times and I never rolled around on the ground like a girl and then shot up like nothing happened. Most sports encourage their athletes to be tough and shake off an injury, soccer rewards you with free kicks and yellow cards to the guy who might or might not have fouled you. And I saying this from the perspective of a soccer player.

Wow, then you are truly the baddest ass ever to walk onto a soccer field.

I am proud to know you sir.

You know basketball awards you a shot to score points and provides fouls to people who might or might not foul you as well. Just saying.

[Snipe]

What I find interesting about Soccer is that it is a sport dominated by white players. Popular American sports are like basketball and football (except QB) are largely dominated by black players. The viewership and fanbase of soccer is also pretty white (and afluent too).

[golfitup]

What I find interesting about Soccer is that it is a sport dominated by white players. Popular American sports are like basketball and football (except QB) are largely dominated by black players. The viewership and fanbase of soccer is also pretty white (and afluent too).

America is completely unique to the rest of the world when it comes to its fan base. Unless it's recent immigrants, the soccer fan base in this country is usually white and college educated. Usually, college grads are more worldly than people who did not. Sounds pompous, but it's just kinda true. For most of the rest of the world, the working classes are the backbone of the support for soccer.

We could also get into the way we produce players as that is completely unique as well. But that might be a whole other thread.

[golfitup]

Actually, here is a good piece on how the famed Dutch club Ajax produce their players. Many of the Dutch players on the field Sunday were produced through this system. For a country as small as Holland, it's incredible how many great players they produce generation after generation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

[GuyFawkes38]

What I find interesting about Soccer is that it is a sport dominated by white players. Popular American sports are like basketball and football (except QB) are largely dominated by black players. The viewership and fanbase of soccer is also pretty white (and afluent too).

The Mediterranean seems to dominate with Italy, France, and Spain being great. Countries like Brazil, Uruguay, and Argentina are also awesome and have lots of players with Mediterranean ancestry (not indigenous/African).

yes, even internationally it's a very white sport (of course, there are exceptions, but for the most part, it is....an African country hasn't come close winning it....most of the top squads are composed of mostly white people).

[D-West & PO-Z]

Why do American soccer fans insist on calling countries by names other than their American names? What the hell is Espana?

Ha, Dan Patrick and I agree.

[DC Muskie]

Ha, Dan Patrick and I agree.

You, Kahns, and Dan Patrick all seem to understand the term "American name."

Care to share with the rest of us what in the hell this means?

[Juice]

Wow, then you are truly the baddest ass ever to walk onto a soccer field.

I am proud to know you sir.

You know basketball awards you a shot to score points and provides fouls to people who might or might not foul you as well. Just saying.

Way to get the point I was making. I am not saying I have never gone down or gotten hurt, but when it happens I usually tried to get up and walk it off like a normal participant in a sporting event. Name another sport where people just roll around on the turf holding their ankle when a guy didn't even hit him there. It's unbelievable.

The amount of youtube videos capturing this bullcrap is amazing. You won't win over new segments of fans when the tops players continue to do this stuff.

So if you are saying that diving and acting is good for the sport or a part of the game then you are delusional. Don't just defend something that happens in soccer because it happens in soccer, that is why most people in America hate "soccer guy".

[DC Muskie]

Way to get the point I was making. I am not saying I have never gone down or gotten hurt, but when it happens I usually tried to get up and walk it off like a normal participant in a sporting event. Name another sport where people just roll around on the turf holding their ankle when a guy didn't even hit him there. It's unbelievable.

If this is such a problem, then why aren't more players just tossed?

I mean really have you been paying attention to the sport to the ten years? Diving is down considerably.

You're taking a few incidences and turning into a regular habit. Wouldn't you agree?


The amount of youtube videos capturing this bullcrap is amazing. You won't win over new segments of fans when the tops players continue to do this stuff.

You seriously look up youtube videos of people diving? Wow.



So if you are saying that diving and acting is good for the sport or a part of the game then you are delusional. Don't just defend something that happens in soccer because it happens in soccer, that is why most people in America hate "soccer guy".

I never said diving was good for the sport. Never. You're on such a rant that you might have missed that point.

Most people, including our friend D West, Kahns, and even Dayton's own Dan Patrick seem to have this notion of what it means to be "American" I think they have even given it its own language. I speak American. I write in American.

I just don't understand why people in this country spend so much time trying to shape or compare the game into something that it is not. No one here calls "game" "set" "match" in tennis differently. No one calls "rough" "green" "fairway" different here then other places. But man, you call Spain it's name in Spanish and somehow you hate apple pie and the Declaration of Independence!

People complain that soccer has no scoring, then get pissed off when a game is decided by scoring. Baseball has the dumbest unwritten codes in all of sports. Hockey prides itself in having guys on the team whose job it is to make sure superstars are not hurt. Where are these analogies in soccer?

How come when a soccer player makes a nice pass, or stops an offensive player, why don't they dance around like football players do? Name another sport where players celebrate the mundane so extravagantly as football.

America didn't invent the sport chief. The entire world seems to like it, dives, faking, shootouts, and all other flaws. Only in America are we concerned about making you, D West, Kahns, Dan Patrick, Michael Wilbon, Glen Beck, and whomever else like the sport more.

Count me in as someone who will never care if you guys don't like it. There's nothing anyone can do to make you like it. The other resolution is to breed you guys out. And I must say it's happening.

[Juice]

If this is such a problem, then why aren't more players just tossed?

I mean really have you been paying attention to the sport to the ten years? Diving is down considerably.

You're taking a few incidences and turning into a regular habit. Wouldn't you agree?



You seriously look up youtube videos of people diving? Wow.




I never said diving was good for the sport. Never. You're on such a rant that you might have missed that point.

Most people, including our friend D West, Kahns, and even Dayton's own Dan Patrick seem to have this notion of what it means to be "American" I think they have even given it its own language. I speak American. I write in American.

I just don't understand why people in this country spend so much time trying to shape or compare the game into something that it is not. No one here calls "game" "set" "match" in tennis differently. No one calls "rough" "green" "fairway" different here then other places. But man, you call Spain it's name in Spanish and somehow you hate apple pie and the Declaration of Independence!

People complain that soccer has no scoring, then get pissed off when a game is decided by scoring. Baseball has the dumbest unwritten codes in all of sports. Hockey prides itself in having guys on the team whose job it is to make sure superstars are not hurt. Where are these analogies in soccer?

How come when a soccer player makes a nice pass, or stops an offensive player, why don't they dance around like football players do? Name another sport where players celebrate the mundane so extravagantly as football.

America didn't invent the sport chief. The entire world seems to like it, dives, faking, shootouts, and all other flaws. Only in America are we concerned about making you, D West, Kahns, Dan Patrick, Michael Wilbon, Glen Beck, and whomever else like the sport more.

Count me in as someone who will never care if you guys don't like it. There's nothing anyone can do to make you like it. The other resolution is to breed you guys out. And I must say it's happening.

I don't look up videos of people diving, faking, and acting but other sports blogs put them up and they are actually quite funny.

No one celebrates because there are no real stops in play like in football, but after a goal there are some pretty extravagant celebrations.

Soccer has already won me over, its the main sport I played my whole life but diving and faking has hurt the sport. Refs barely have any idea what is going on now. People actually criticized Arjen Robben for not diving on that one play in the WC finals. I don't hate soccer, I just can identify with critics who laugh at certain aspects. Plus, most soccer fans have an arrogance about them, like the San Francisco characters in South Park who like the taste of their own farts.

[DC Muskie]

I don't look up videos of people diving, faking, and acting but other sports blogs put them up and they are actually quite funny.

No one celebrates because there are no real stops in play like in football, but after a goal there are some pretty extravagant celebrations.

Soccer has already won me over, its the main sport I played my whole life but diving and faking has hurt the sport. Refs barely have any idea what is going on now. People actually criticized Arjen Robben for not diving on that one play in the WC finals. I don't hate soccer, I just can identify with critics who laugh at certain aspects. Plus, most soccer fans have an arrogance about them, like the San Francisco characters in South Park who like the taste of their own farts.

The diving videos are pretty funny. But anyone who decides on a sport by watching a video on a blog is pretty stupid. Plus 25 million Americans, no doubt, speaking American watched the final. Maybe they are all arrogant.

And people I saw were criticizing Robben for not going down when Puyol scissor kicked him and tried to pull him down. But that wouldn't have been a dive. A foul doesn't mean to actually have to hit the ground.

I actually think American soccer fans are dorks. They use terms like "Mobbing Up" while at the same time like their teams to have nicknames like Wizards and Galaxy. I think when people like Kahns, D West, Dan Patrick and Glen Beck take the time to rag on a sport they don't really like, or think it's unAmerican, people who like the sport get defensive, which is pretty understandable. I'm not sure if you want into a bar during a World Cup match, or a Premiership match, you're going to see a whole lot of arrogant fans.

What's funny to me is the idea that diving is killing the sport. I'm not sure where you get that thinking. Baseball sure hasn't felt the pain since the steroid era, and that's more blatant cheating then diving. Have you noticed that pitchers are dominating the sport now? But baseball doesn't suck all of a sudden.

I actually wish the NFL would allow for more celebrations. I like the soccer celebrations, can you imagine Chad doing something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsAUL03Xse0&feature=related

That would be glorious.

[Denver Muskie]

I think it's hilarious that people complain about a sport they watch for one month every four years. The world cup may be the best tournament in the sport in terms of drama, but the level of play is nowhere near the top european leagues and the champions league. If you want to see the game at the highest level and without many of these issues, then watch those competitions.

As with all sports, things can be improved. I would implement clock stoppages for goals, injuries, substitutions and eliminate stoppage time. There would no longer be time to waste. I do not suggest this change so that Americans will watch the sport more because I frankly don't care.

[xubrew]

some coaches that i know stumbled upon a rather unique and exciting concept to replace penalty kicks. maybe this idea has been presented before, but this was the first i've ever heard of it.

every two minutes, each team has to use one less player.

the kids love it, but another thing it does is that it really forces teams to think about strategy as the minutes tick away. what position do you remove?? what formation do you go to?? do you go for a knockout punch, or do you try and hold on and outlast the other team??

and, it does end the game in a reasonably timely manner.

i realize that going that route has way too much of a jamboree element for fifa to ever adopt it, but it is more exciting and more strategic than penalty kicks. at the fifa level, you'd probably need to remove players every five minutes rather than every two, but the game would probably end within thirty minutes far more often than not.

they even use this at some of the coaching clinics because it forces hopeful coaches to apply their knowledge of the game to what strategy they take.

i'm in favor. it will never happen, but i'm in favor.

[Kahns Krazy]

Why does this bother you so? I'm simply respecting their country and its performance as a football club (does that bother you too?) by using the Spanish spelling and pronunciation. Espana translates to Spain, fyi. Does it also bother you that I spell it Brasil instead of Brazil when I talk about their team?

It does because it's stupid. Do you hear people that drive German cars refer to them as kraftwagen? When you order a Corona, do you call it a cerveza? Why are you choosing one word out of a sentence to say in a different language? In my creencia, it's estupido.


Ha. There are so many funny things about these two sentences.

What exactly does the term "American names" mean?


You, Kahns, and Dan Patrick all seem to understand the term "American name."

Care to share with the rest of us what in the hell this means?

Grab a diccionario in this nacion. Look up Spain. Then look up Espana. That's what an American apelativo is, you majadero.

[Blueblob4life]

Kahn, I don't take it that seriously that I have to call Spain "Espana" all the time. And if I want to call Corona "cerveza", it just happens, usually as a joke, but sometimes its just how it happens (and people know what I mean). It's one word in a sentence and most people know what it means and they don't get worked up about it. Clearly you know what cerveza and kraftwagen mean, so why does it matter that I used Espana when it's not that hard to understand what it means? I mean really, big deal.

Also, I can't get over the whole "American names" thing either. That's just funny. I'm pretty sure Spain is the "English" spelling for the Spanish "Espana", not the "American name". They do use the word "Spain" over in England and other English speaking countries too.

[DC Muskie]

It does because it's stupid. Do you hear people that drive German cars refer to them as kraftwagen? When you order a Corona, do you call it a cerveza? Why are you choosing one word out of a sentence to say in a different language? In my creencia, it's estupido.

I really don't understand your argument here. Do you speak Spanish when you order a Corona as to not to sound stupid? I think anyone who orders a cerveza will look stupid because they are not being specific. Are people somehow confused when someone else says Espana? Which Spain? Do friends tell you they bought a Peoples Car recently rather then a Volkswagen? I mean cause saying you drive a Volkswagen without the rest of the German is so irritating.


Grab a diccionario in this nacion. Look up Spain. Then look up Espana. That's what an American apelativo is, you majadero.

Should we call "Real Madrid" Royal Madrid? Or "Altetico Madrid" Athletic Madrid? Or should we refer to the league that these two teams play in, "The League" rather then La Liga?

I need some help here. Clearly I've been screwing up.


you majadero.

no bonita

[muskienick]

Some of us are getting to the point that it's difficult enough to fully grasp the meanings of American jargon. I don't need foreign words to screw me up even more (with the possible exception of a cutesy little thing like a Ms. Piggy "Moi?")!

[Kahns Krazy]

Kahn, I don't take it that seriously that I have to call Spain "Espana" all the time. And if I want to call Corona "cerveza", it just happens, usually as a joke, but sometimes its just how it happens (and people know what I mean). It's one word in a sentence and most people know what it means and they don't get worked up about it. Clearly you know what cerveza and kraftwagen mean, so why does it matter that I used Espana when it's not that hard to understand what it means? I mean really, big deal.

Also, I can't get over the whole "American names" thing either. That's just funny. I'm pretty sure Spain is the "English" spelling for the Spanish "Espana", not the "American name". They do use the word "Spain" over in England and other English speaking countries too.

I'm not directing this at you individuals. My experience is with soccer fans in general...

Here's the thing though- people who take soccer seriously do this wayyyyyy more often than anyone else does in normal conversation. I have never heard anyone but a soccer fan call Uruguay " Oohahgwagh". I think it's something that many soccer fans do intentionally because they think it makes them seem more intelligent or knowledgeable. To me, it doesn't. It makes them sound like Alex Trebek, a well known douchebag. Have you ever heard anyone planning a trip say that they are going to Espana for vacation?


As far as "American" vs. "English", the version of English that we speak in the country is American English. It is appropriate to refer to the American English word "Spain" as the American name. I never said it was the uniquely American, it's simply the term that is defined in the American English language. Just because the same term is used in other languages doesn't mean it isn't also the American name. The American name for English "crisps" is potato chips. Is that funny or hard to get over?

[DC Muskie]

Here's the thing though- people who take soccer seriously do this wayyyyyy more often than anyone else does in normal conversation. I have never heard anyone but a soccer fan call Uruguay " Oohahgwagh". I think it's something that many soccer fans do intentionally because they think it makes them seem more intelligent or knowledgeable. To me, it doesn't. It makes them sound like Alex Trebek, a well known douchebag. Have you ever heard anyone planning a trip say that they are going to Espana for vacation?

How many conversations do you have with serious soccer fans? I would think anything they would say would irritate you. I actually never hear American soccer fans pronounce it that way, but I do know a lot more people roll their r's when talking about Latino American countries. I don't think that is a big deal.


As far as "American" vs. "English", the version of English that we speak in the country is American English. It is appropriate to refer to the American English word "Spain" as the American name. I never said it was the uniquely American, it's simply the term that is defined in the American English language. Just because the same term is used in other languages doesn't mean it isn't also the American name. The American name for English "crisps" is potato chips. Is that funny or hard to get over?

You know the potato chip is a distinct American creation, some would argue created in Dayton for that matter, right? So if her Majesty's subjects want to call it slices, or fried rings, or whatever, that doesn't mean people can't refer to things in their respective language. We call it potato chips, who gives a crap what other countries call it. Now that is definitely American.

My biggest problem about soccer in this country is thinking that people like Kahn's, or Glen Beck or D West will ever truly like it. And they try this by screwing up the names of teams in MLS like Kansas City Wizards and San Jose Earthquakes, or go the other extreme and call themselves Real Salt Lake. Just call them San Jose, or Kansas City and be done with it. Or how they must refer to the national team as the US Men's National team. No one else does this. We don't even refer to our other national teams like this.

I also dislike how people here must refer to clubs like Manchester United as the Red Devils. They don't refer to themselves that way, but here in America, we must have American nicknames for everything. It's like everything that comes over here must be Americanized or something. Red Devils take on the Blues today. Who the hell are you talking about?

I'm not kidding when I say this, people who don't like soccer have more sticks up their asses about every little thing, then soccer fans have about them. Just look at this recent back and forth, people actually think others are snobby or stupid because they refer to a country in that country's native tongue. Seriously is there anything you like about soccer?

"Soccer fan likes to say Espana, oh those snobby douchebags. Call it Spain, like they do in the holler."

And then they will order a Corona and get into their Volkswagen and think they are normal.

It's really uncanny. Luckily for them they can hibernate their ill will towards Alex Trebek soccer fans for another fours years. It will be a well deserved rest after hearing such snobs. NFL training camps begins in two weeks. Got time to watch the EPSY's again! WOO HOO!

[DC Muskie]

some coaches that i know stumbled upon a rather unique and exciting concept to replace penalty kicks. maybe this idea has been presented before, but this was the first i've ever heard of it.

every two minutes, each team has to use one less player.

the kids love it, but another thing it does is that it really forces teams to think about strategy as the minutes tick away. what position do you remove?? what formation do you go to?? do you go for a knockout punch, or do you try and hold on and outlast the other team??

and, it does end the game in a reasonably timely manner.

i realize that going that route has way too much of a jamboree element for fifa to ever adopt it, but it is more exciting and more strategic than penalty kicks. at the fifa level, you'd probably need to remove players every five minutes rather than every two, but the game would probably end within thirty minutes far more often than not.

they even use this at some of the coaching clinics because it forces hopeful coaches to apply their knowledge of the game to what strategy they take.

i'm in favor. it will never happen, but i'm in favor.


I actually think this would be a great idea. Open up the game more, because frankly keep playing with no subs, someone is going to score out of pure exhaustion. How fun is that?

FIFA would never do this, because it is way, way too complicated.

[Kahns Krazy]

I like how long-winded soccer snobs are when explaining why they aren't snobs. Blowhards.

[DC Muskie]

I like how normal Americans think people actually talk on a message boards.