View Full Version : Makes my spine tingle
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 07:43 AM
This is one of the most disturbing stories I've read in a while.
http://www.thestar.com/article/470342
For those that don't want to read for themselves, an unprovoked passenger on a Canadian Greyhound bus started stabbing another passenger. After the bus stopped and everyone ran off (leaving the victim), the guy proceeded to behead the victim. He then taunted the passengers (who had him locked in the bus) and police with the head before trying to escape from a window.
It makes me sick to hear the spokesperson for the cops call the actions of the other passengers brave. There is nothing brave about running away from a brutal attack on another person in order to save your own ass. There were 30+ poeple on that bus, and no one did anything to save the guy. He may not have lived, but they didn't even give him a chance.
There were 30+ poeple on that bus, and no one did anything to save the guy. He may not have lived, but they didn't even give him a chance.
Bystander effect, I guess. The more people there are to watch, the less of a likelihood that anyone will do anything about it. Just like the Kitty Genovese incident years ago.
I agree that is a very morbid story, especially the taunting with the dismembered head.
A very large man is going beserk on a bus stabbing someone, and you don't get the hell out of there just as fast as you can?
In the moment, you have no idea what is going on, if the guy has a gun, if the two have been fighting or drinking, whether there are others in cahoots with the beserk person?
Short of have a stun gun or a weapon that could be used without getting near this guy, I think you are being incredibly harsh on the other passengers on the bus.
I can easily distinguish this event from the report of a man in the street with cars driving by and no one stopping to help.
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 02:48 PM
Exactly when did we lose our civil responsibility to help others in need? I don't know if I was just raised differently, but what they did, or failed to do, is flat out wrong. I read another report with a quote from the guy sitting directly in front of the two. He said he heard the victim scream, turned and watched the attacker stab the kid in the chest "40 to 50 times." Somewhere in that time, he most certainly could and should have stopped the guy. He was within striking distance, reach out and knock his arm away... punch him in the face... do something. Don't just sit there and watch the kid get stabbed 50 times.
Protesting too much jumpy.
No one is arguing we lost our duty to help others in need. One has no duty to die, or to risk dying, in order to help others, unless we signed up for it with prior knowledge. Cf police, soldiers.
Its incredibly judgmental and uninformed of you to assume anyone, or the particular witness in the seat in front, had the means to stop a guy who was beserk and stabbing a stranger. behind him. Had the stranger done something wrong, threatening himself?
Very few of us anticipate extreme violence and plan how to control or stop it, let alone have the strength and training to overcome a large berserk man with a knife. Call me naive, but in all my rides on buses in my youth, this situation never occurred to me. You make a judgment about a person with no knowledge of his size, age, strength, or aggressive/passive emotional makeup. All but calling him a coward is just wrong, esp. from the calm, daylit security of your office or home.
Stonebreaker
08-01-2008, 03:28 PM
What do you expect. Kids can't use jarts any more, play dodgeball or butts-up at school. The PC crowd wants to create a softer/gentler nation full of wussies.
Not surprised at all.
What do you expect. Kids can't use jarts any more, play dodgeball or butts-up at school. The PC crowd wants to create a softer/gentler nation full of wussies.
Not surprised at all.
I blame the lawyers.
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 03:33 PM
I am making assumptions, and maybe I am being too hard on them. But the bottom line is there were 30+ people on that bus that could have done something. And they didn't. If it were me, and I failed to act, I would have a very hard time living with myself.
I'm not pinning it on that one guy. Just using him as an example. If he were to act, maybe it would spark others to join in, maybe not. Either way, if it were me, I would like to think that I would take action. I know that I have in comparable situations in the past (granted not as grave).
I was taught in high school to be a man for others. I try to take that a literally as possible, and apply it to every situation in my life. I know the remorse I would have had if I failed to act, and I guess I am going overboard in applying my personal beliefs on a situation that I did not witness first hand, but in the end it is still hard for me to believe that they did nothing.
What do you expect. Kids can't use jarts any more, play dodgeball or butts-up at school. The PC crowd wants to create a softer/gentler nation full of wussies.
Not surprised at all.
Right! Castrate a few of the leaders of that PC crowd, stuff balls in mouth, THEN cut off head and taunt the rest of the crowd with it.
Can I ask how many of our jart-throwing dodgeball throwin readers have with bare hands disarmed a berserk large man with a knife in a crowded space when suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with said maniac>?
coasterville95
08-01-2008, 03:49 PM
As an aside, I saw Jarts in Meijer just last week, they have been toned down and now have a blunt plastic end instead of the metal dartip end.
Incidenttly, I still have a set to metal tipped Jarts...
But who plays Jarts anymore with Cornhole available?
Stonebreaker
08-01-2008, 03:53 PM
Right! Castrate a few of the leaders of that PC crowd, stuff balls in mouth, THEN cut off head and taunt the rest of the crowd with it.
Can I ask how many of our jart-throwing dodgeball throwin readers have with bare hands disarmed a berserk large man with a knife in a crowded space when suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with said maniac>?
More than the ones who play with dolls or are web-geeks. :D
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Right! Castrate a few of the leaders of that PC crowd, stuff balls in mouth, THEN cut off head and taunt the rest of the crowd with it.
Can I ask how many of our jart-throwing dodgeball throwin readers have with bare hands disarmed a berserk large man with a knife in a crowded space when suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with said maniac>?
By all accounts, the man was completely calm the entire time. He simply snapped and started stabbing away. Just as you claim I'm making too many assumptions in favor of my opinion, I think you are acting likewise in favor of yours.
Stonebreaker
08-01-2008, 03:54 PM
As an aside, I saw Jarts in Meijer just last week, they have been toned down and now have a blunt plastic end instead of the metal dartip end.
Incidenttly, I still have a set to metal tipped Jarts...
But who plays Jarts anymore with Cornhole available?
How much ya want for 'em?
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 03:59 PM
Protesting too much jumpy.
No one is arguing we lost our duty to help others in need. One has no duty to die, or to risk dying, in order to help others, unless we signed up for it with prior knowledge. Cf police, soldiers.
Its incredibly judgmental and uninformed of you to assume anyone, or the particular witness in the seat in front, had the means to stop a guy who was beserk and stabbing a stranger. behind him. Had the stranger done something wrong, threatening himself?
Very few of us anticipate extreme violence and plan how to control or stop it, let alone have the strength and training to overcome a large berserk man with a knife. Call me naive, but in all my rides on buses in my youth, this situation never occurred to me. You make a judgment about a person with no knowledge of his size, age, strength, or aggressive/passive emotional makeup. All but calling him a coward is just wrong, esp. from the calm, daylit security of your office or home.
Coming back to this post, the victim did nothing wrong to provoke the attack. He was asleep in the seat next to the killer, minding his own business before the attack happened.
Everyone on the bus had the same story. The killer was completely normal, placid even, before he started the attack.
XU05and07
08-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Coming back to this post, the victim did nothing wrong to provoke the attack. He was asleep in the seat next to the killer, minding his own business before the attack happened.
Everyone on the bus had the same story. The killer was completely normal, placid even, before he started the attack.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there may be something wrong with this guy's mind...just a thought
Stonebreaker
08-01-2008, 04:04 PM
Hey man, I'd like to think I wouldn't puss out, and figure out what I could do to help the guy. Just as I would expect another to do the same for me.
I mean, WTF? It's called looking out for others. I guess you either have that mentality, or not.
boozehound
08-01-2008, 05:10 PM
It's tough to say what you would do. I would like to say that I would have stepped in, but never having been in that situation (or anything similar, really) I can't say with complete certainty that I would. The human instinct is tuned toward self preservation, and it can often be a powerful thing to try to overcome.
Swifty
08-01-2008, 05:48 PM
Why are some of you surprised that the people did nothing to stop the violence, they were Canadians for Christ sakes.
Jumpy
08-01-2008, 06:04 PM
It's tough to say what you would do. I would like to say that I would have stepped in, but never having been in that situation (or anything similar, really) I can't say with complete certainty that I would. The human instinct is tuned toward self preservation, and it can often be a powerful thing to try to overcome.
While what you say is largely true, it is our compassion for fellow people, even strangers, that make us human. I think a combination of your post above and Stoney's is the truth. You can't know exactly how you will react and some people instinctively become a protagonist while others, most probably, act to save themselves first.
I will relay this story not to brag (God knows I'm nowhere close to a badass) but to explain where I'm coming from. After the 2005 playoff loss to the Stealers, I was leaving the stadium, walking down the ramp with every other dejected soul. I heard some shouting about three ramp flights below me and when I finally got there, four Bengals fans had a Stealers fan on the ground punching and kicking him. Countless people walked by, either ignoring it, cheering it on or giving it a wide berth. I jumped in and grabbed the guy that was kicking the Stealers fan in the gut. I got roughed up a little, but soon after I took action, many others came to help me stop the beating. It was all a blur, but it seemed that my initial action spurred others into doing the right thing. This is the context by which I am judging the poeple on that bus. One person may or may not have been able to stop the knife wielding psycho, but it more than likely would have led others to help in the cause.
After the 2005 playoff loss to the Stealers, I was leaving the stadium, walking down the ramp with every other dejected soul. I heard some shouting about three ramp flights below me and when I finally got there, four Bengals fans had a Stealers fan on the ground punching and kicking him. Countless people walked by, either ignoring it, cheering it on or giving it a wide berth. I jumped in and grabbed the guy that was kicking the Stealers fan in the gut. I got roughed up a little, but soon after I took action, many others came to help me stop the beating.
As long as that guy you saved wasn't Kimo Von Oelhoffen, I applaud what you did.
Snipe
08-02-2008, 05:45 AM
Pent up white guys do the strangest things.
Good case for a concealed carry law. If you were on the back of the bus with a pistol you wouldn't have to run in fear when some guy had a knife.
Jumpy
08-02-2008, 08:57 AM
As long as that guy you saved wasn't Kimo Von Oelhoffen, I applaud what you did.
Thank you, xeus. I was hesitant to tell the story because I'm not looking for gratification. Honestly, I think It was a matter of karma.
The Artist
08-02-2008, 07:19 PM
While what you say is largely true, it is our compassion for fellow people, even strangers, that make us human. I think a combination of your post above and Stoney's is the truth. You can't know exactly how you will react and some people instinctively become a protagonist while others, most probably, act to save themselves first.
I will relay this story not to brag (God knows I'm nowhere close to a badass) but to explain where I'm coming from. After the 2005 playoff loss to the Stealers, I was leaving the stadium, walking down the ramp with every other dejected soul. I heard some shouting about three ramp flights below me and when I finally got there, four Bengals fans had a Stealers fan on the ground punching and kicking him. Countless people walked by, either ignoring it, cheering it on or giving it a wide berth. I jumped in and grabbed the guy that was kicking the Stealers fan in the gut. I got roughed up a little, but soon after I took action, many others came to help me stop the beating. It was all a blur, but it seemed that my initial action spurred others into doing the right thing. This is the context by which I am judging the poeple on that bus. One person may or may not have been able to stop the knife wielding psycho, but it more than likely would have led others to help in the cause.
Ok, let's say 5 large sized males try to do something. What's the over/under of number of them who get either wounded if not killed? I'll set it at 3. And the original victim probably ends up dying anyway. I'm not saying nobody should have jumped in, but I also don't blame them at all. It seems to me the victim was going to die no matter what. The killer got caught.
Your story is NOTHING like what happened. Literally nothing.
Jumpy
08-02-2008, 07:33 PM
Ok, let's say 5 large sized males try to do something. What's the over/under of number of them who get either wounded if not killed? I'll set it at 3. And the original victim probably ends up dying anyway. I'm not saying nobody should have jumped in, but I also don't blame them at all. It seems to me the victim was going to die no matter what. The killer got caught.
Your story is NOTHING like what happened. Literally nothing.
This just makes me sad.
Firehose
08-02-2008, 08:52 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there may be something wrong with this guy's mind...just a thought
I realize that I'm far from the craziest guy you've ever met, but when I look at this and say that it's just wrong and that the passengers were cowards, I myself believe that it says something.
Firehose
08-02-2008, 08:53 PM
Pent up white guys do the strangest things.
Good case for a concealed carry law. If you were on the back of the bus with a pistol you wouldn't have to run in fear when some guy had a knife.
No, just a pent up white guy who also had a pistol.
The Artist
08-02-2008, 09:40 PM
This just makes me sad.
Well then I'm sorry to ruin your Saturday night.
Maybe I should type in a larger font so that you can read it all the way from up there on your pedestal.
Jumpy
08-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Well, your stance on the matter and your profession are at least congrous, I'll give you that much. If you were in that situation, and you were really at peace with the decision to not step in, to sacrafice the life of another so that you could avoid the risk of getting hurt, then ruining my night is not all you have to worry about.
Jumpy
08-02-2008, 10:39 PM
There is one person on this board who has remained mysteriously quiet on the subject, that I am interested in hearing from.
Thor, having the profession that you do, what is your take?
waggy
08-12-2008, 09:56 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401821,00.html
nuts4xu
08-12-2008, 10:23 PM
Canadians are a bunch of crazy pussies.
ATL Muskie
08-12-2008, 10:35 PM
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Hanon_Andrew/2008/08/11/6408951-sun.html
ATL Muskie
08-12-2008, 10:38 PM
OK, we need some good Canadian mojo to brighten the mood of this thread.
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/SpookSh0w/billard43al.gif
wkrq59
08-13-2008, 01:34 AM
This isn't a cop-out, but most if not all policemen I have ever met even to talk to casually have said "Don't try to be a hero. If you see a situation where you know anything you do or try to do would result in even greater harm to you and possibly others near you, get the hell out of there and wait for us to take over. That's our job."
Let's face it, those were completely different circumstances than even jumping on a guy kicking another. With no disrespect, there is precious little anyone on the bus could have done for that young man other than what they did. Lock his assailant in the bus.
This is why we have police and firemen and why they should be paid on a par with doctors and lawyers and such.
Four or five people, say they are all able-bodied men see a rape in progress, that they probably can stop. A woman's purse is stolen and someone trips the fleeing thief. That's trying to achieve something possible.
But how many times have we seen men drown trying to save someone from drowning? Or someone enter a burning building and die trying to save someone who isn't there? This is why the passengers on Flight 93 were legitimate martyrs for attempting to take over that plane and in doing so lost their own lives but saved countless others if that plane had been crashed into a building filled with people.
I'd like to hope someone would have tried to stop the fruitcake, but really, you can't expect extroardinary means to be taken on a n every-day basis.
As far as people being called wusses or pussies or whatever and chastising some of the misguided politically correct for their actions, that's just plain silly.
Maybe I'm just an old fart who is being too realistic, but Don Quixote was not on the bus that day and there is no reason to expect noble actions to be commonplace. I surely wouldn't chastise those people for being human and getting as far from that bus as possible. :(
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