Notre Dame > Xavier

[YoItsMikeRagone]

End of Message.

[cinskyline]

I hate Troy Murphy.

[Stonebreaker]

Mike Ragone, the speedy TE talking smack?? Whoda thunk it?

[BBC 08]

Louisville football > ND football

There, I said it.

[Stonebreaker]

Louisville football? Maybe in the past, but I think you'll start seeing a different type of ND team. Notre Dame is becoming loaded at every position. Give 'em a year, two at the most.

[DC Muskie]

Give 'em a year, two at the most.

Give them three or four if they need it. ND will be back, it's been proclaimed!

[Stonebreaker]

Give them three or four if they need it. ND will be back, it's been proclaimed!


I respect your opinion, but since I follow ND pretty closely (and not a blind homer), I assure that you sir, are wrong. :p (gratuitous smiley face included, at no charge)

[ChicagoX]

Weis' last two recruiting classes have been loaded with talent. They'll be just fine in a couple years. Next year might only yield six or seven wins, but after think I really expect to see some years of sustained success...something that has been missing for the past decade.

[Stonebreaker]

Most at ND expect at least 7 given the much easier schedule, and the fact that all the skill players are no longer freshmen. In 2009, most of the knowledgable fans will demand 10 or more wins. We'll see how it shakes out.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

Louisville football > ND football

There, I said it.

You need to stop sniffing that Musket gun powder.

[BBC 08]

You need to stop sniffing that Musket gun powder.

But it smells so good.

[DC Muskie]

Weis' last two recruiting classes have been loaded with talent. They'll be just fine in a couple years. Next year might only yield six or seven wins, but after think I really expect to see some years of sustained success...something that has been missing for the past decade.

Wasn't this year the year they were supposed to yield at least seven wins?

[DC Muskie]

Most at ND expect at least 7 given the much easier schedule, and the fact that all the skill players are no longer freshmen. In 2009, most of the knowledgable fans will demand 10 or more wins. We'll see how it shakes out.

Okay 2009 is when the real expectations are allowed. For now it's just cross your fingers and hope the kids grow up. You must not watch a lot of college football besides ND.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

Okay 2009 is when the real expectations are allowed. For now it's just cross your fingers and hope the kids grow up. You must not watch a lot of college football besides ND.

Interesting analysis. What is your basis for saying that he doesnt watch enough CFB? Every year a rebuilding team is supposed to win 10?

[scooper]

Wasn't this year the year they were supposed to yield at least seven wins?


Not if you actually considered the two deep full of first and second year players, no. And only playing two non-bowl teams. Nobody expected a year as bad as 3 wins. Some were brave and predicted 9-10. Not many, though.

[scooper]

Interesting analysis. What is your basis for saying that he doesnt watch enough CFB? Every year a rebuilding team is supposed to win 10?

Your tone seems familiar, stranger.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

Your tone seems familiar, stranger.

Word, son.

[scooper]

Word, son.

I saw a certain Mr. GM recently, by the way.

[ChicagoX]

Wasn't this year the year they were supposed to yield at least seven wins?

I had HOPED they could win six or seven this year and qualify for a bowl game this season, but with their schedule and loss of so many solid players, I wasn't very optimistic going into the opener against Georgia Tech. Losing that game by 30 immediately made me recognize it would be a LONG year.

[DC Muskie]

So just to be clear. In a rebuilding year for ND, they can lose to Navy?

You guys makes it sound like ND was the only school in the country who played first and second year players. I'll give you an example of a team that was considered in a "rebuilding year." Ohio State. All they did was win the Big Ten and play in the national championship.

But good luck to the Domers. It can only go up from here!

[pickledpigsfeet]

Interesting analysis. What is your basis for saying that he doesnt watch enough CFB? Every year a rebuilding team is supposed to win 10?

Ohio State did.

Its one thing to have great recruiting classes, its another thing to bring those kids in a coach them up. Look at schools like Florida St., Tennessee, and Miami where they get some of the best kids in the country every year but in the past few years those teams have failed to live up to expectations (with the possible exception of Tennessee this year).

[scooper]

There are different levels of "rebuilding."

OSU rebuilt. But with a good number of seniors and juniors. And what they call "juniors" were often red shirt juniors who were actually in their fourth year with the program. A lot needed to happen for them with a lot of new starters, and to their credit-those guys stepped up. But most of them had been there 3-4 years.

Sure, a lot of teams start first and second year guys. Good luck finding a team this year that started more than ND did. You won't find it because they don't exist. Their upper classes actually had about as many scholarship players as one full recruiting class...they were that thin. And not only thin, the Jr. and Sr. classes were comprised of their two least regarded classes in decades. In terms of both size of class and star power.

Now, all excuses aside, there were also some major coaching errors. Namely, trying to coach 18 and 19 year olds like professionals. It had worked the two years before because it was a more experienced and mature group.

Practices were not physical with no real hard contact and it showed on the field. They switched gears after the Michigan game and it showed a bit, but by then it was too late. You build your team before the season.

Then there was the ill fated attempt at trying to install a West Virginia type spread option offense in the offseason. That failed and was scrapped after the first game, but again, it was too late.

These were all serious coaching mistakes that combined with the lack of depth and experience as well as a tough front loaded schedule, all created a perfect storm which brought the shit sandwich that was the ND 07 season.

Will they improve? It will be hard not to. The talent is certainly getting better and deeper. But some guys are going to have to grow up and the coaching needs to be more focussed on execution, energy and physical play as opposed to getting too cute with the X's and O's. Playcalling doesn't matter if your Oline can't block.

[pickledpigsfeet]

Here is Ohio State's depth chart for this year. Check out how the classes break down. 5 seniors listed and 3 of those are at fullback. Lots of Freshmen and Sophmores listed. The cupboard isn't as bare as ND's but it wasn't like they started 8 seniors on each side of the ball either.


http://bucknuts.com/football/depthchart/

[scooper]

Here is Ohio State's depth chart for this year. Check out how the classes break down. 5 seniors listed and 3 of those are at fullback. Lots of Freshmen and Sophmores listed. The cupboard isn't as bare as ND's but it wasn't like they started 8 seniors on each side of the ball either.


http://bucknuts.com/football/depthchart/

It's apples and oranges. ND reports players as freshmen and sophmores so redshirts aren't in the equation. If you count red shirts, Ohio St. actually had more than 5 seniors.

The breakdowns of the starters including number of years in the program (or in college football in case of Jucos, is this)

OSU

5- 1
4- 5
3- 13
2- 4
1- 0



ND

5- 5
4- 3
3- 6
2- 5
1- 3

So ND actually had more "seniors" but what is missing here is the talent of the seniors. ND's is primarily a bunch of 3 three stars with a couple 4 stars thrown in, while OSU's had much more talent to begin with. Also, third year players have plenty of experience and OSU's third year guys made up one hell of a group. That's where the big gap was. ND's junior class lacks both numbers and talent, thus the need for freshmen and sophomores to play significant roles, including important QB, WR, and OL positions.

Overall, OSU had three true freshmen in the two deep, with none starting. ND has 6 with three listed as starters, but the other three also started games at one time or another. Overall, 7 true freshmen started at one time or another.

Again, OSU deserves a lot of credit for the job they did this year in what was supposed to be a "rebuilding" year, but they had plenty of talent and experience to perform at a high level.

I don't think ND did, and that was exacerbated by some glaring coaching mistakes.

[scooper]

Anyway, I came to this board to get away from football talk and enjoy some basketball talk and here I get sucked back in. I really do have to blame stoney.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

So just to be clear. In a rebuilding year for ND, they can lose to Navy?

You guys makes it sound like ND was the only school in the country who played first and second year players. I'll give you an example of a team that was considered in a "rebuilding year." Ohio State. All they did was win the Big Ten and play in the national championship.

But good luck to the Domers. It can only go up from here!


When you take a doodie out of your mouth, do you wipe it off with toilet paper?

ND started more underclassmen than any other upper tier school out of necessity. Our upper classes were ruined from horrid recruiting classes, from a certain coach, that shall be forgotten from ND lore. Im sure the comparison to OSU's situation is a joke, right? No? Well, then you definitely need to watch some more CFB.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

Ohio State did.

Its one thing to have great recruiting classes, its another thing to bring those kids in a coach them up. Look at schools like Florida St., Tennessee, and Miami where they get some of the best kids in the country every year but in the past few years those teams have failed to live up to expectations (with the possible exception of Tennessee this year).

Ill start off with being fair. The FL schools; FSU and Miami have also been plagued by some of the worst QB play in decades. Weatherford and Wright just flat out bombed.

Year after year, those 2 teams fail, yet the talent still goes to the NFL. Why? Because they still produce top grade talent, just lack team skills, and more importantly coaching.

Outside of new coach Randy Shannon, all of the HC's have been in hot water for the past few years because of exactly what youre saying. Tenn does play in a harder conf. - to be fair.

All 3 of those schools get the benefit of the doubt as per ranking every year, too. So much that theyve become THE most overrated schools in the nation.

Finally, People need to stop acting like ND has been recruiting with the likes of these schools for years, because that is the worst assessment ever given. ND just started recruiting again in 2006.

[Stonebreaker]

I agree you you Ragone, the classes before 2006 were God-awful. Thanx to Ty's (dare I say his name?) ineptness at recruiting. This is evident at the number of freshman starting at the skill positions on offense, and having a weak DL and LB corp. This doesn't even take into account the lack of depth.
ND is improving its depth, and will should win 7 or so games next year, with 2009 being the breakout year.

[Stonebreaker]

Note-I'm allowing Ragone some leeway because I decided not to dignify a response in my own defense.

[YoItsMikeRagone]

Welcome to the House of Smack, i'm your co-host with Mark May.

[XUdomer23]

Looks like the gang is all here.
ND>XU>Louisville :p

[KC4X]

Please explain to me how ND>XU. And, if you're going to say because they beat UC by more, try again. That is one of the nation's best rivalries and rarely ends up how anyone expects it to.

[Stonebreaker]

That whole one team, beat this team, who beat another team, so the former team is better than the latter team..........is WHACK.
UC is a very different team than they were the first month of the season. Hell, even St. Louis couldn't play as poorly as they did the other nite.
Point being.....every game is its own animal.

[XU Fan in DC]

I had to chime in here eventually. Here's to a better season in 2008 for the Fighting Irish.

PS Do any of you guys post at ndnation?

[Stonebreaker]

I had to chime in here eventually. Here's to a better season in 2008 for the Fighting Irish.

PS Do any of you guys post at ndnation?

I like you already. :)