The Bodies Exhibit, Revisited

[GuyFawkes38]

It looks like our good bishop (and my sentiments) were correct:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080530/NEWS01/805300333/1056/COL02


The entire matter creeps me out. It's dehumanizing. It's disgusting. I personally look down at everyone who went to see this exhibit.

And I don't want to hear any of this type crap: "The bodies would have been thrown in a pit. Or they would have rotted on a road. They were presented in a dignified, educational manner."

That's rationalizing a wrong act for your personal viewing pleasure. Did the presenters even consider what types of religious beliefs these human beings had. Did they consider how they would feel if their bodies were to be shipped across the world, thousands of miles from their sacred home, to be dismembered and viewed in glass boxes.

It's disgusting. Let's not rationalize this BS.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It looks like our good bishop (and my sentiments) were correct:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080530/NEWS01/805300333/1056/COL02


The entire matter creeps me out. It's dehumanizing. It's disgusting. I personally look down at everyone who went to see this exhibit.

And I don't want to hear any of this type crap: "The bodies would have been thrown in a pit. Or they would have rotted on a road. They were presented in a dignified, educational manner."

That's rationalizing a wrong act for your personal viewing pleasure. Did the presenters even consider what types of religious beliefs these human beings had. Did they consider how they would feel if their bodies were to be shipped across the world, thousands of miles from their sacred home, to be dismembered and viewed in glass boxes.

It's disgusting. Let's not rationalize this BS.

How can you look down on anyone who went to see it if the did not have this information before? I can understand that people would be upset since some of these bodies from this company may have been taken without the permission of the person, thats fine. However there are many other exhibits, like the Body Worlds exhibit that has been touring the country that uses bodies from people who donate their bodies to them specifically, and there is nothing disgusting or dehumanizing about it.

[GuyFawkes38]

How can you look down on anyone who went to see it if the did not have this information before? I can understand that people would be upset since some of these bodies from this company may have been taken without the permission of the person, thats fine. However there are many other exhibits, like the Body Worlds exhibit that has been touring the country that uses bodies from people who donate their bodies to them specifically, and there is nothing disgusting or dehumanizing about it.


Yes, I guess that's kind of a good point.

But don't forget that a lot of people were voicing concern about the exhibit right from the start (from the Bishop, to 20/20, to many human rights groups).

It is true that the company that produced the exhibit denied the allegations. But, of course, they had a reason to be biased. Only under the scrutiny of the law did they become forthcoming.

[sylvester]

I saw the exhibit and I thought it was incredible. To be able to see the actual layering and make-up of the human body was odd at first but extremely interesting throughout the entire exhibit. I understand that it may be a little much for some, but the opportunity to see such depth of the human is quite remarkable. As for the legality of the body acquisition or whatever, I am not too concerned with it after being impressed with the exhibit. That may be shallow but I never had the opportunity to see such impressive human forms.

[PM Thor]

...................

[GuyFawkes38]

That may be shallow but I never had the opportunity to see such impressive human forms.


I can give you a few websites which showcase the human form more "impressively".

All while preserving human dignity (well, kind of. some websites, definitely not).

[Chicago Muskie]

What is it like being on such a high horse? "I look down on people...." Does it make you feel good to say that?

[Cheesehead]

Guy kils me. Don't bring your kids to Xavier games and don't go see the Bodies. Blah, blah, blah. He's probably against abortion but in favor of the death penalty.

[GoMuskies]

What is it like being on such a high horse?

Guy is Carlos?

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy kils me. Don't bring your kids to Xavier games and don't go see the Bodies. Blah, blah, blah. He's probably against abortion but in favor of the death penalty.

As a matter of fact, yes.

[GuyFawkes38]

What is it like being on such a high horse? "I look down on people...." Does it make you feel good to say that?

It does feel good to say that. How does it feel to go through life apathetic?

[Raoul Duke]

How does it feel to go through life apathetic?

It's ok I guess.

[Smails]

Guy is Carlos?

Guy is Peirre

[Chicago Muskie]

Guy

Will you please tell me how to live my life. I really don't think I can go through life with you looking down your nose at me.

It must be hard to be humble when you are as perfect as you think you are.

[boozehound]

I look down on people who look down on people for going to see the bodies exhibit...

[Kahns Krazy]

It's ok I guess.

Well played.

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy

Will you please tell me how to live my life. I really don't think I can go through life with you looking down your nose at me.

It must be hard to be humble when you are as perfect as you think you are.



It's very easy for me to be humble. I'll say this right now. I do not consider myself to be perfect. I'm simply closer to perfection than everyone I know.

There, you got a humble moment out of me.

[PM Thor]

Screw being humble. I would rather judge people, then if I am wrong, just deny that it ever happened, or better yet, change the perception of what happened to suit what I want.

The world in my head is full of Smurfs and oompa loompas fighting it out no holds barred though too.

[blobfan]

The bodies exhibit is like pornography, in my opinion. Both appeal to our voyeuristic tendencies. It creeps some people out and fascinates others. Regardless, it doesn't belong on billboards, in commercials or in newspapers.

I can't figure out why it isn't ok to run morgue photos or pictures of car crash victims but it is ok to plaster plastinated, skinless Chinese people all over town. Its nauseating.

[Arnold Horshack]

The bodies are not disgusting in themselves. Does it show disrespect to the human body to display it in this way? Not in my opinion. Does it disrespect the wishes of the body owners because they didn't consent with this? Yes, if that is indeed the case. If the bodies were handled with respect, and the dead consented to this, I would have no issues with this at all.

[GuyFawkes38]

The bodies exhibit is like pornography, in my opinion. Both appeal to our voyeuristic tendencies. It creeps some people out and fascinates others. Regardless, it doesn't belong on billboards, in commercials or in newspapers.

I can't figure out why it isn't ok to run morgue photos or pictures of car crash victims but it is ok to plaster plastinated, skinless Chinese people all over town. Its nauseating.


Yes, I completely agree. Even with the consent of the donors (which the exhibit in Cincy clearly did not have) the exhibit still feels wrong to me.

When I dissected a cat in high school, I did so with some regret. And I have a friend in Med school who told me that most students in his class felt conflicted about dissecting a human body.

Yet, I don't get any sense of this with people who attend the bodies exhibit. I don't understand it.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The bodies are not disgusting in themselves. Does it show disrespect to the human body to display it in this way? Not in my opinion. Does it disrespect the wishes of the body owners because they didn't consent with this? Yes, if that is indeed the case. If the bodies were handled with respect, and the dead consented to this, I would have no issues with this at all.

I agree 100%. I had to dissect a cadaver last summer in school and obviously it was very educational and the bodies were donated to SLU and we treated them with respect. The bodies exhibit is similar in that they are educational and donated, in most cases except with this one company, and I would hope treated with respect.

I wonder if these companies use the same bodies for years and what they do with them after exhibits close down. I know with the bodies donated to SLU for Gross Anatomy are cremated after use and every year there is a big outdoor service for these people and then the ashes are buried in a cemetery in St. Louis. A lot of family members of the deceased come to this memorial service and it is a very classy ordeal.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yes, I completely agree. Even with the consent of the donors (which the exhibit in Cincy clearly did not have) the exhibit still feels wrong to me.

When I dissected a cat in high school, I did so with some regret. And I have a friend in Med school who told me that most students in his class felt conflicted about dissecting a human body.

Yet, I don't get any sense of this with people who attend the bodies exhibit. I don't understand it.

I knew people in my class that were squeamish about it because of the fact that it was a human, but not morally, and nor should they feel this way. We let people make decisions about if the want to be cremated and such before they die, why not if they want to be donated for educational purposes? Why not respect their wishes then? We couldnt have the knowledge we do about the human body without these wonderful people, and we wouldnt have well trained doctors or physical or occupational therapists, or other people in certain medical professions.

[PM Thor]

I think you guys are ignoring something.

It isn't proven that these bodies are from Chinese prisoners. It also isn't proven that they are from consenting deaths.

Some of you are automatically condemning the exhibit because they can't prove the site of the bodies, yet, in that same way, who really knows where they are coming from?

I say this because (and I know that this is completely a non sequitor) when it comes to Chinese babies up for adoption, the records are also completely muddled. The report says from "undocumented origins", that, in itself, means absolutely nothing. It means that the group simply cannot prove where the bodies came from, not that they came from a group that the opposition believes that it does...

Why say that these bodies are automatically from prisoners, when all that the site admits is that they cannot prove where they come from? Seems to be a leap to the worst possible answer for me.

[GuyFawkes38]

Yes, PMthor, from what i've read, nobody really knows where the bodies are from. But it doesn't make me feel any better that the bodies might not be from prisons.

I read in an article that the company which produced the exhibit is examining the viability of using entirely consented bodies (I think the public/politicians will push for this).


I knew people in my class that were squeamish about it because of the fact that it was a human, but not morally, and nor should they feel this way. We let people make decisions about if the want to be cremated and such before they die, why not if they want to be donated for educational purposes? Why not respect their wishes then? We couldnt have the knowledge we do about the human body without these wonderful people, and we wouldnt have well trained doctors or physical or occupational therapists, or other people in certain medical professions.


I agree with this. In certain contexts, the use of human bodies is absolutely necessary. It was morally correct for me to dissect a cat. And it was morally correct for my med school friend to dissect a human body.

To me, the bodies exhibit doesn't fit into that necessary context, which a professional medical education fits into.

[PM Thor]

So Guy, if all of the bodies consented, you would still have a problem because

"To me, the bodies exhibit doesn't fit into that necessary context, which a professional medical education fits into" .(teaching the med students).

What about teaching the common man about the human body? I understand your want for respect for the human, but where do you discern the medical student from the common man?

Is it exploitation? Maybe, but if the bodies consented in life, then I have no problem with it, and to be honest, I think that most people should see what their bodies are about, in the most graphic examples possible. Hell, ask someone walking down the street, I doubt they could point to their kidney, liver, or esophagus.

I say again, IF the bodies were consented to, then I think the exhibit offers something into the human body that most people never see, and that is a good thing to let people learn about.

[GuyFawkes38]

PMthor, I'm not necessarily saying that I think the exhibit should be shut down.

I would hope that the public wouldn't be interested in such an exhibit. But that doesn't seem to be the case (although I do think there will be a public outcry if the producers continue to use bodies without consent).

Under certain contexts (med school), I see the use of human bodies as regrettable but absolutely necessary.

But to showcase dismembered human bodies in a public space for a for profit exhibit just doesn't sit well with me. And I have trouble buying the argument that it's "educating the common man".

My parents went to the exhibit and they enjoyed it. I tried to make them feel guilty about. I don't think they did though.

[D-West & PO-Z]

PMthor, I'm not necessarily saying that I think the exhibit should be shut down.

I would hope that the public wouldn't be interested in such an exhibit. But that doesn't seem to be the case (although I do think there will be a public outcry if the producers continue to use bodies without consent).

Under certain contexts (med school), I see the use of human bodies as regrettable but absolutely necessary.

But to showcase dismembered human bodies in a public space for a for profit exhibit just doesn't sit well with me. And I have trouble buying the argument that it's "educating the common man".

My parents went to the exhibit and they enjoyed it. I tried to make them feel guilty about. I don't think they did though.

I dont think you understand the precision it takes to dissect these bodies the way these people have done in order for them to be so clear. Trust me, these bodies are not dismembered. In my gross class you could say that the bodies were somewhat dismembered, because we had 100 college students who had never done this before trying to dissect well enough to see every artery nerve vein and muscle, and trust me, that is very very hard to do. It is amazing to me how they dissect these bodies so well in order to bring out the detail they do, truly amazing.

[GoMuskies]

I had never heard of this, but because of Guy's protests, I'm probably going to seek this exhibit out and go. Sounds interesting. Thanks Guy!

[XUglow]

I first started doing business in China in the late 80's. Because we worked mostly with universities before there were established businesses, I had many friends among the professors that were very excited about the growing tide of political freedom that they felt in the late 80's, and many predicted China would become a democracy by 1990 or so. Eastern Europe fell, Russia fell, surely it was their time next, and so the protests started, and then the crackdown in Tiananmen Square happened. When that happened, my view of China changed drastically.

China was dangerous, brutal, corrupt, etc. I wrote a book about my experiences in China immediately before and immediately after the massacre, but my company ended up paying me not to publish it because they feared retaliation against the company in general, and our employees in China in particular if the book ever hit the streets. That was in 1990.

I did pull several harmless, humorous short stories from the original manuscript that were published in magazines, and the only glimpse into organized cruelty that got published was in a short story entitled, "The Bus". In that true story, a taxi driver was driving aggressively along side our bus. Our bus driver rammed his cab at the first opportunity, and the two drivers went after each other on the street. Our driver had a big stick. The taxi driver had "The Club". Everyone on the bus was fascinated, the drivers exchanged a few glancing blows, the police showed up, and for some reason, they told the bus driver to get back on the bus, and they arrested the taxi driver.

As we pulled off and watched the police shove the taxi driver into the back of a van, my Chinese buisness partner said, "Ohhhhhh... there goes another kidney donor." It was rather tragic because there probably was some truth to the statement.

I guess my point is that in most cases if you don't monitor the Chinese step-by-step, they will do something questionable, and they won't understand why you consider it a problem.

Museum: "Are any of these bodies tortured and executed Chinese prisoners?"
Chinese Police: "If it is a problem for you, the answer is no. They all willingly consented."

[Kahns Krazy]

PMthor, I'm not necessarily saying that I think the exhibit should be shut down.

I would hope that the public wouldn't be interested in such an exhibit. But that doesn't seem to be the case (although I do think there will be a public outcry if the producers continue to use bodies without consent).

Under certain contexts (med school), I see the use of human bodies as regrettable but absolutely necessary.

But to showcase dismembered human bodies in a public space for a for profit exhibit just doesn't sit well with me. And I have trouble buying the argument that it's "educating the common man".

My parents went to the exhibit and they enjoyed it. I tried to make them feel guilty about. I don't think they did though.

Strange. You are very vocal that people should listen to- and presumably adopt-your beliefs, but you absolutely refuse to listen to others'.

Some people believe that a body after the person is dead is just a body, no more sacred than the stainless steel table it sits on. Why should you have the right to force your beliefs on those people?

If you don't like the exhibit, don't go. If you don't like how they do things in China, don't go there either. It is a big world. There's room for everyone.

[GuyFawkes38]

Strange. You are very vocal that people should listen to- and presumably adopt-your beliefs, but you absolutely refuse to listen to others'.

Some people believe that a body after the person is dead is just a body, no more sacred than the stainless steel table it sits on. Why should you have the right to force your beliefs on those people?

If you don't like the exhibit, don't go. If you don't like how they do things in China, don't go there either. It is a big world. There's room for everyone.


I'm not saying the government should shut down the exhibit (although I'm open to the proposed laws about requiring consent of the body donor).

But I definitely reserve the right to voice my beliefs about the exhibit to those on this board and in person, to my parents (who somehow enjoyed the exhibit).

(I'm not an expert on this, but don't some anthropologist argue that the reverence and respect which western society gave to the dead body helped lead to a society which was more concerned about human rights and dignity than other areas of the world).

[Stonebreaker]

If it were live, nude chicks...I'd go see the exhibit.

[MADXSTER]

If it were live, nude chicks...I'd go see the exhibit.

I'm with you Stoney. Dead chicks with no skin are a turn off. But then that's just one posters' opinion. Now if she were a dead hooker with no skin, I might have to toss a coin.

[blobfan]

If you don't like the exhibit, don't go. If you don't like how they do things in China, don't go there either. It is a big world. There's room for everyone.

Except, Kahns, we don't have a choice about whether we not choose to look at the exhibit, even if we stay far from the museum. Their choice of advertising has pushed this into the public debate.

This is my biggest problem with this exhibit. I don't want to see dissected bodies posing with footballs or split in half holding a conductors baton, no matter how artful the technique. I won't condemn anyone that sees it any more than I would condemn someone for watching porn, regardless of how I feel about it. Yet I'm forced to view these bodies simply because I choose to watch tv, read the newspaper or drive down I-71 where a billboard displays them in all their gory splendor.

If you flashed me on the side of the interstate, you could be arrested for exposure. Why do we not apply similar rules to dissected bodies? I find a live, naked human body much less offensive than the pictures I've been forced to view of this so-called exhibit.

And yes, even if I were interested in seeing it, I would see Body Worlds instead because they can prove the donors were willing. And I think it is right that the current exhibit now has to post warnings saying they cannot substantiate provenance. I do not, however, feel they should be shut down.

[blobfan]

If it were live, nude chicks...I'd go see the exhibit.

So you've been spending some time in the X Lounge lately?

[waggy]

So you've been spending some time in the X Lounge lately?

:eek:



:D

[Kahns Krazy]

Blob, those are valid points. I don't object to the display, so I haven't found the advertising offensive. (Well, except for that one r-tard that says "It looked real... wolll... it was real"), but if I found the display offensive, I'd probably be a little ticked at the advertising. Hadn't really thought of that.

Where I differ with Fawker is that he attempts to make others feel guilty about not sharing his beliefs.

[waggy]

Americans aren't much better than the Chinese. There's a small difference here, but this is about as pathetic as it gets...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080606/NEWS01/306050090

[XUglow]

If it were live, nude chicks...I'd go see the exhibit.

I do believe that most towns have that educational exhibit running 6 or 7 evenings a week. Take a lot of ones because you need to pay the living displays one at a time. That's a bit of a pain, but at least they don't make you chase them around. They will come get the display fee directly from you when it is offered. Use paper money. Don't offer change. The coins just won't stay in the garter belts that the "museum" provides the displays to hold the gate receipts.

[Kahns Krazy]

In Indiana there's some weird law that requires businesses that serve alcohol to serve food on Sundays, and there has to be a certain percentage of purchase. I was in one place about 10 years ago that had a $20 cover, but the "Lunch buffet" was $10, and included free cover. I think there were 4 hot dogs on the buffet, and they stayed there the entire time we were there.

Uhm, not cover. Museum admission.

[GoMuskies]

Americans aren't much better than the Chinese. There's a small difference here, but this is about as pathetic as it gets...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080606/NEWS01/306050090


Yeah, there are probably two people out there with vision who wouldn't otherwise be able to see. I'm disgusted!

[XUglow]

Americans aren't much better than the Chinese. There's a small difference here, but this is about as pathetic as it gets...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080606/NEWS01/306050090

That isn't nearly the same as harvesting organs from living people against their will or killing prisoners so you can sell their bodies or body parts.

[Stonebreaker]

I do believe that most towns have that educational exhibit running 6 or 7 evenings a week. Take a lot of ones because you need to pay the living displays one at a time. That's a bit of a pain, but at least they don't make you chase them around. They will come get the display fee directly from you when it is offered. Use paper money. Don't offer change. The coins just won't stay in the garter belts that the "museum" provides the displays to hold the gate receipts.

Somebody rep this man, I tried and can't.