Should I be denied Eucharist?

[GuyFawkes38]

As an Obama supporter, some in the Catholic hierarchy believe I should be denied Eucharist (even though I consider myself Pro Life).

Of course, I have it easy. Besides this anonymous board, my life is very nonpublic.

But the same can't be said for another Catholic Pro Life Obama supporter. Douglas Kmiec, a respected law professor, was denied communion for his support of Obama.

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2000

It's very simple. Some elements in the Catholic hierarchy have become unhinged.

[MADXSTER]

Of course not. The big guy was very inclusive. JC included prostitutes, tax collectors, leppers, samaritans and pretty much anyone. My guess is that he would even include you if you were pro-choice and an Obama supporter which I personally am neither. IMO to deny someone the Body of Christ in his house is pompous and arrogant. JC is religious and spiritual not politcal...politics is man's doing.

Love God foremost. Love your neighbor as if he were Jesus Christ himself.

Out.

[GuyFawkes38]

Of course not. The big guy was very inclusive. JC included prostitutes, tax collectors, leppers, samaritans and pretty much anyone. My guess is that he would even include you if you were pro-choice and an Obama supporter which I personally am neither.

I agree 100%. Even if you do believe that supporters of a candidate are deeply misguided, wouldn't you still want them to be connected with the life giving power of the Eucharist.

Of course, it's easy to overstate this phenomenon. Thankfully, it's only a few misguided bishops in the midwest who are doing this (and it's important to emphasize that Rome in no way supports their actions, but instead is taking a hands off approach).

[xeus]

The big guy was very inclusive. JC included prostitutes, tax collectors, leppers, samaritans and pretty much anyone. My guess is that he would even include you if you were pro-choice and an Obama supporter which I personally am neither.


Sounds a lot like the party I was at last night.

[GuyFawkes38]

Not much opposition here. It's settled:

Guyfawkes should not be denied communion.

[sarsfield]

Actually, Mr. Fawkes, you WERE denied communion once your plot to blow up Parliament was discovered. It was only after you confessed your sin of attempted murder and did penance that you were readmitted to communion.

I agree that the chaplain in question was out of bounds, but what disturbs me even more is the nonchalance being displayed by most commenters about Obama's enthusiastic support for the slaughter of the innocents. I want some Catholic Obama supporter to explain why he or she is angrier about a chaplain overreacting to Kmiec's endorsement of Obama than about a self-professed progressive like Obama singlehandedly blocking the Born Alive Infant Protection Act while in the Illinois legislature. Even NARAL supported the equivalent bill at the federal level ! And yes I get that the Republicans support many things that are irreconcilable with Catholic moral teaching. But how does that justify voting for a man who winks at the killing of innocent human life on the grand scale of legalized abortion in this country ? How can any liberal or progressive simply rationalize or excuse this denial of human rights ? Might it not be time for Catholics to say "a plague on both your houses ?"

[GuyFawkes38]

I don't buy the argument that another 4 or 8 years of a Republican in the excecutive branch would bring any meaningful change to the legality of abortion.

Personally, I do not believe that John Roberts and Alito will vote for a reversal of Roe Vs Wade. They both pay too much respect to precedence to be in favor of such an abrupt reversal.

And it's an erroneous assumption to believe that McCain will put 2 more justices in the Supreme Court that will vote against Roe Vs Wade.

[vee4xu]

Guy, believe it or not, I am with you on this one. Any human who determines that another human is unworthy to receive the Body of Christ is guilty of the unforgivable sin, namely equating themselves with God. As a Eucharistic Minister for 22 years, I am taught that the event of receiving the Holy Eucharist is private between the person receiving and Jesus Himself. As a Eucharistic Minister, all that I am is an instrument to facilitate the event.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

May he who is without sin cast the first stone.

In the end, it is very possible that judging a person and denying someone Holy Communion with Jesus is him/herself guilty of a bigger sin.

[xeus]

Great post vee. Nice to have the perspective from someone on the front lines of Eucharistic ministry.

[MADXSTER]

Guy, believe it or not, I am with you on this one. Any human who determines that another human is unworthy to receive the Body of Christ is guilty of the unforgivable sin, namely equating themselves with God. As a Eucharistic Minister for 22 years, I am taught that the event of receiving the Holy Eucharist is private between the person receiving and Jesus Himself. As a Eucharistic Minister, all that I am is an instrument to facilitate the event.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

May he who is without sin cast the first stone.

In the end, it is very possible that judging a person and denying someone Holy Communion with Jesus is him/herself guilty of a bigger sin.

Vee, though I completely agree with you in your post, you have seemingly left out the Thor factor. That being the only reason he goes to church is to get a free full glass of wine. That's why he sits in the back so he can be the first to get to the cup. Not trying to judge here but he does smile and belch as he walks away. What is a Eucharistic Minister to do?

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy, believe it or not, I am with you on this one. Any human who determines that another human is unworthy to receive the Body of Christ is guilty of the unforgivable sin, namely equating themselves with God. As a Eucharistic Minister for 22 years, I am taught that the event of receiving the Holy Eucharist is private between the person receiving and Jesus Himself. As a Eucharistic Minister, all that I am is an instrument to facilitate the event.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

May he who is without sin cast the first stone.

In the end, it is very possible that judging a person and denying someone Holy Communion with Jesus is him/herself guilty of a bigger sin.

Very true.

[vee4xu]

Thanks zeus.

MAD, thor lives to a beat of a different drummer (in a good way), so he is more difficult to account for. If he drinks the consecrated wine, at least he will be filled with the presence of Christ. If he drinks it straight from the bottle he will simply be full of altar wine. So, why not get a dual benefit?

[wkrq59]

Vee,
Excellent post.
Just wondering what happened to "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's?"
Anyway, Guy and Vee, well done.:D

[The Cat Gafney]

Vee, so you think no one has the right to refuse communion to someone not worthy to receive? This is a responsibility bestowed upon the Catholic clergy. They have an obligation to the faith to do so.

My thoughts on original thread question - per my interpretation of catechism, if Obama was a Catholic, he should be denied communion. However, a pro-life supporter of Obama would most certainly be worthy to receive.

Not a theologian by any means, but the above is my understanding.

[vee4xu]

Vee, so you think no one has the right to refuse communion to someone not worthy to receive? This is a responsibility bestowed upon the Catholic clergy. They have an obligation to the faith to do so.

My thoughts on original thread question - per my interpretation of catechism, if Obama was a Catholic, he should be denied communion. However, a pro-life supporter of Obama would most certainly be worthy to receive.

Not a theologian by any means, but the above is my understanding.

That's why this is such a great country. You can believe whatever you want. I choose to believe what is was taught during my Eucharistic Minister training. You believe what you believe for whatever reason, which is fine. It is a personal decision between every person and God whether or not to recieve. When that person dies, they can deal iwth it between God and him/herself in the Particular Judgment of that person. When that person was living and came to my Communion line, I have no way of looking into their soul at that very momnet to determine the status of their worthiness and would never pretend to. During the Eucharist distribution I am not there (for sure) and the priest is not there to determine worthiness at that moment. How do I know that person who I would deem unworthy had not gone to confession to the very priest standing next to me, prior to receiving? How would I look if I didn't know that and chose not to give the person Holy Communion?

I don't judge what you think, but I do disagree with it.

[OX09]

Any human who determines that another human is unworthy to receive the Body of Christ is guilty of the unforgivable sin, namely equating themselves with God.

We can't assume the minister is condemning the person, equivocating himself with God. The minister may be truly concerned about this person's actions, and therefore the possible negative consequences of receiving the Eucharist:


"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself...But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world." -I Corinthians 11:27-33


The minister should trust that the person has properly examined himself, and therefore should not withhold the Eucharist. But let's not condemn the minister. For we do not know his heart same as he does not know ours.

[vee4xu]

We can't assume the minister is condemning the person, equivocating himself with God. The minister may be truly concerned about this person's actions, and therefore the possible negative consequences of receiving the Eucharist:


"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself...But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world." -I Corinthians 11:27-33


The minister should trust that the person has properly examined himself, and therefore should not withhold the Eucharist. But let's not condemn the minister. For we do not know his heart same as he does not know ours.

Not sure where you are coming from on this one. I agree with the I Corintian verse you state. I said any human and did not limit my comment to only EM's. But I stand by by feeling that no one should be judging another except for that person alone with Almighty God.

[bbfan]

http://politicalview.ireporter.tv/2008/March/KenBlackwellBlackNYSunColumnistWarnsabouttheShortc omingsofObama.htm

[vee4xu]

http://politicalview.ireporter.tv/2008/March/KenBlackwellBlackNYSunColumnistWarnsabouttheShortc omingsofObama.htm

Mr. Blackwell should stay out of the limelight. He is an embarrassment to Xavier University and to Ohioans everywhere. BTW, not sure how this link relates to this thread, but hey, it's a free country.

[bbfan]

This link relates to this thread because this thread started out by saying "as an Obama supporter".

Please enlighten me. How specifically is Blackwell an embarrassment??

[bbfan]

This is a quote from the article which I thing directly applies to this thread. Did you even read the link before responding??

"Finally, look at the social issues. Mr. Obama had the audacity to open a stadium rally by saying, "All praise and glory to God!" but says that Christian leaders speaking for life and marriage have "hijacked" - hijacked - Christianity. He is pro-partial birth abortion, and promises to appoint Supreme Court justices who will rule any restriction on it unconstitutional. He espouses the abortion views of Margaret Sanger, one of the early advocates of racial cleansing. His spiritual leaders endorse homosexual marriage, and he is moving in that direction. In Illinois, he refused to vote against a statewide ban - ban - on all handguns in the state. These are radical left, Hollywood, and San Francisco values, not Middle America values."

[OX09]

Not sure where you are coming from on this one. I agree with the I Corintian verse you state. I said any human and did not limit my comment to only EM's. But I stand by by feeling that no one should be judging another except for that person alone with Almighty God.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was using "minister" to encompass everyone who administers the Eucharist including clergymembers of all levels, not just EMs. And I agree that no one should be judging another. And we both agree that equivocating yourself with God through this form of judgment is a moral sin.

But here is the paradox: if we claim that a bishop, priest, or minister is performing this form of judgment and that this judgment is an unforgivable sin...are committing the same sin? Are we ultimately judging a person for judging a person?

My comments have not been intended to rebuke anyone, but to reveal the irony that we are in essence making judgments about judgments when we claim that judging a person is bad.

So, my previous post was an attempt to deter the assumption that the Eucharist was withheld from an Obama supporter purely as a judgment of the recipient, but instead could have been an act of concern for the recipient. Therefore, saving us from judging someone who judged someone (who also probably judged someone ;))

[vee4xu]

But here is the paradox: if we claim that a bishop, priest, or minister is performing this form of judgment and that this judgment is an unforgivable sin...are committing the same sin? Are we ultimately judging a person for judging a person?

No worries 0X09, I understand what you were attempting. Your question above is a good one, but I believe that the Catholic Catechism states in some form that equating ourselves with God is mortal. So, anyone suggesting as much is on pretty firm ground by referring to the Catechism to make this claim.

[MADXSTER]

Another 'Catch 22'