Sean Miller: The Thread

[Caveat]

So, everyone on the X / twitter is melting down that Sean’s on the way out. Lots of panicked pushes to donate to X’s NIL fund.

Is there legit chatter he’s on his way out? Or is this more internet nonsense?

[MHettel]

I haven’t heard a peep or read anything. But I’m not looking for it either.

Best move right now for Miller would be to make a statement and flushes this issue quickly. Saw what happened when Mack had UofL courting him mid season. This team can still get right and make the tourney.

The team looked distracted last game for sure

[XUBison]

Great, These rumors should really help recruiting.

[MHettel]

Great, These rumors should really help recruiting.

Yeah, and if we don’t make the tourney, we can start working the portal before most of everyone else

[OTRMUSKIE]

I think what you will see is Christopher get fired. If Miller does leave that would put him as the biggest Dbag over Beak nose. That’s not easy to do either. Beak nose is about to F Butler again for OSU. There is absolutely no way in hell Miller leaves X. Changes will be made and that’s why you haven’t heard a peep from Miller. He will use this to his advantage but he isn’t going anywhere so calm down .

[Xville]

I think what you will see is Christopher get fired. If Miller does leave that would put him as the biggest Dbag over Beak nose. That’s not easy to do either. Beak nose is about to F Butler again for OSU. There is absolutely no way in hell Miller leaves X. Changes will be made and that’s why you haven’t heard a peep from Miller. He will use this to his advantage but he isn’t going anywhere so calm down .

I know Christopher supposedly has done some good things with the other sports that don’t matter financially, but he should be fired for hiring Steele and what he has done to the women’s program. I thought his hire was low hanging fruit to begin with and never understood it. Not like he had some amazing reputation.

[Xavier]

The part that gets overlooked is Greg was able to move himself to second in command at the university. His role goes beyond AD. It will be tough to move him. As for the recruiting part- it’s as little an issue as ever in todays world. We will probably be averaging more transfers than freshman from here on out.

But Sean isn’t leaving. Sheesh

[GoMuskies]

Maybe he shouldn't get fired, but that situation with Christopher's responsibilities extending beyond athletics has always been weird. Perhaps Xavier should, you know, hire a full time athletics director. Given that we allegedly take athletics seriously.

[JTG]

I think what you will see is Christopher get fired. If Miller does leave that would put him as the biggest Dbag over Beak nose. That’s not easy to do either. Beak nose is about to F Butler again for OSU. There is absolutely no way in hell Miller leaves X. Changes will be made and that’s why you haven’t heard a peep from Miller. He will use this to his advantage but he isn’t going anywhere so calm down . Matta isn't going anywhere. Butler will be his last stop. I have a strong suspicion Christopher is the problem. And I'm fine with him being jettisoned. He effed up hiring Steele, and assumed he saved his ass by hiring Miller. Now apparently he's being petty with Miller. Whoever is AD at X needs to know job # 1 is to keep the basketball program humming, keep the staff happy and spend whatever it takes to achieve those goals.As for what he did for non revenue sports, in the grand scheme of Xavier sports , any sports other than Men's basketball is only slightly more important than the type of soda sold in Cintas.

[XUBison]

Matta isn't going anywhere. Butler will be his last stop. I have a strong suspicion Christopher is the problem. And I'm fine with him being jettisoned. He effed up hiring Steele, and assumed he saved his ass by hiring Miller. Now apparently he's being petty with Miller. Whoever is AD at X needs to know job # 1 is to keep the basketball program humming, keep the staff happy and spend whatever it takes to achieve those goals.As for what he did for non revenue sports, in the grand scheme of Xavier sports , any sports other than Men's basketball is only slightly more important than the type of soda sold in Cintas.

Wait, tension between Sean and Christopher… is that a thing?

[UCGRAD4X]

I don't expect or want Miller to say anything. He's still the coach and the season is ongoing. He's getting his boys ready for a streak for the ages. He's got no time or interest in that carnival. Those kinds of announcements are hollow anyway and often just adds more blood to the waters.

[XU_Lou]

Does anyone know what the hell is going on? I'm only seeing cryptic comments about something happened?


The Southern Muskie ⚔��
@SouthernMuskie
·
7h
Where my mind is at regarding the rumors that broke last night: Open

I'm not ready to take a side or point fingers just yet (because nothing has officially happened).

I expect both Miller and the university to be both adults and professionals and figure this out.




Fake Blue Blob
@FakeBlueBlob
·
18h
Cintas may not be its usual rockin’ self on Wednesday and that bums me out man




kaitlin
@KuciaKatie1
·
4h
I still don’t think Sean is leaving but I am not feeling great about anything that’s going on within the program after yesterday. That’s my two cents.




kaitlin
@KuciaKatie1
·
19h
Lol don’t be mad at Sean. Be mad at admin.




Josh Kummerer
@Always_Joshin
·
3h
At this point I don’t feel great about the university as a whole.

[Xavier]

Nothing. It’s crazy how many people are spiraling. Mostly stemming from an ambiguous post on 247 that said absolutely nothing.

[XU_Lou]

Nothing. It’s crazy how many people are spiraling. Mostly stemming from an ambiguous post on 247 that said absolutely nothing.

Can we get the gist of it?

[Xville]

To put it plainly, Rick is a pos for this. Major clickbait nonsense to get the Xavier faithful all in a tizzy on a non game weekend. F him

[xu82]

To put it plainly, Rick is a pos for this. Major clickbait nonsense to get the Xavier faithful all in a tizzy on a non game weekend. F him

You’re among friends, please feel free to tell us what you really think! ��

[Xavier]

Can we get the gist of it?

A handful of things contradicting each other so he plays both sides. “I’ve heard from some inside the athletic department that think he will move on in spring. I’ve heard from some people in the know that don’t see it happening” “some have said he doesn’t think the university wants to commit to what it takes to get to the F4/ *he was disappointed with NCAA inconsistency at the chalk talk”

The chalk talk comment leads to everyone thinking he was really mad that the administration wouldn’t go to bat for him like UC did for Wes. A complete misrepresentation of what he actually said, but Rick put it in a vague way to get people to make crazy conclusions.

That’s the main thing, he had “sources” from both ends of the spectrum saying opposite things. Everyone lost their mind and still is. The Twitter stuff comes from people on the board. It’s all vague because it was presented that way, no one really has any idea

[Xavier]

I actually think he brought good info for the Steele to miller situation, and the transfer portal. It’s a good Xavier bball fix. I just think what he did here was total bs. It’s the sort of thing that actually does cause issues.

[bjf123]

A handful of things contradicting each other so he plays both sides. “I’ve heard from some inside the athletic department that think he will move on in spring. I’ve heard from some people in the know that don’t see it happening” “some have said he doesn’t think the university wants to commit to what it takes to get to the F4/ *he was disappointed with NCAA inconsistency at the chalk talk”

The chalk talk comment leads to everyone thinking he was really mad that the administration wouldn’t go to bat for him like UC did for Wes. A complete misrepresentation of what he actually said, but Rick put it in a vague way to get people to make crazy conclusions.

That’s the main thing, he had “sources” from both ends of the spectrum saying opposite things. Everyone lost their mind and still is. The Twitter stuff comes from people on the board. It’s all vague because it was presented that way, no one really has any idea

Can you provide some context around the term “chalk talk” in this usage? No clue what that means.


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[Xville]

You’re among friends, please feel free to tell us what you really think! ��

It’s a dick move by a non Xavier fan.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Perhaps this is a naive question but what actions, not yet taken, could Xavier's admin. take to demonstrate commitment toward getting to the FF?

[xuwillie]

To put it plainly, Rick is a pos for this. Major clickbait nonsense to get the Xavier faithful all in a tizzy on a non game weekend. F him

This! He knew damn well what he was doing.

[XU_Lou]

A handful of things contradicting each other so he plays both sides. “I’ve heard from some inside the athletic department that think he will move on in spring. I’ve heard from some people in the know that don’t see it happening” “some have said he doesn’t think the university wants to commit to what it takes to get to the F4/ *he was disappointed with NCAA inconsistency at the chalk talk”

The chalk talk comment leads to everyone thinking he was really mad that the administration wouldn’t go to bat for him like UC did for Wes. A complete misrepresentation of what he actually said, but Rick put it in a vague way to get people to make crazy conclusions.

That’s the main thing, he had “sources” from both ends of the spectrum saying opposite things. Everyone lost their mind and still is. The Twitter stuff comes from people on the board. It’s all vague because it was presented that way, no one really has any idea


This! He knew damn well what he was doing.

Willie - do you subscribe to Rick's site? Just curious if that is your take after reading whatever he said.

Just to play devils advocate, why would he throw a grenade into the XU faithful if he knew it was all BS - with the consequence of destroying his reputation, and thus losing business?



To support what you guys are saying, I did see this on MM (can anybody confirm any of this?):

Re: Miller
Postby olsingledigit » Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:59 am

Our NIL money is fine. I hear Miller is building a new house in the Cincy area. He just signed an extension. FWIW

[Jehoya]

It’s a dick move by a non Xavier fan.

100 percent, the dude can be a douche, his whole “realist negative, attitude gets old.

[xuwillie]

Willie - do you subscribe to Rick's site? Just curious if that is your take after reading whatever he said.

Just to play devils advocate, why would he throw a grenade into the XU faithful if he knew it was all BS - with the consequence of destroying his reputation, and thus losing business?



To support what you guys are saying, I did see this on MM (can anybody confirm any of this?):

Re: Miller
Postby olsingledigit » Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:59 am

Our NIL money is fine. I hear Miller is building a new house in the Cincy area. He just signed an extension. FWIW

I am. I like the recruiting aspect of the site during offseason but that’s about it. He’s a big NKU guy, could give two shits about X. I think he’s regretting writing that article

[noteggs]

Sean will be mentioned for openings at a lot of schools. How many was Steele? So, good and bad news.

Sounds like this Rick dude has good connections inside the program and heard he has credentials with some of the pressers. If his access gets somewhat limited and Sean stays, we’ll know the answer.

[bjf123]

Our NIL money is fine. I hear Miller is building a new house in the Cincy area. He just signed an extension. FWIW

Did I miss the announcement about him signing an extension?


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[Xville]

Did I miss the announcement about him signing an extension?


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At the end of last year or beginning of this year he did. But let’s be honest, that means extremely little anyways unless it came with a huge buyout which it didn’t

[xavbball]

To put it plainly, Rick is a pos for this. Major clickbait nonsense to get the Xavier faithful all in a tizzy on a non game weekend. F him

Sean isn't going anywhere. This whole thing is ridiculous.

[XUGRAD80]

https://theathletic.com/5276013/2024/02/14/ohio-state-coaching-candidates-mcdermott-may-tang/?source=user_shared_article

Here’s another take on the OSU thing from The Athletic. One very interesting and somewhat surprising take from the article concerns XU v OSU spending on Men’s BB. Probably will surprise most other people too.

[Xville]

https://theathletic.com/5276013/2024/02/14/ohio-state-coaching-candidates-mcdermott-may-tang/?source=user_shared_article

Here’s another take on the OSU thing from The Athletic. One very interesting and somewhat surprising take from the article concerns XU v OSU spending on Men’s BB. Probably will surprise most other people too.

Paywall. Would you mind a quick summary?

[XUGRAD80]

Paywall. Would you mind a quick summary?

Summery…..

1) OSU should throw buckets of money at McDermott or May and hope that they accept……as soon as possible.
2) Xavier outspends OSU on its basketball program by a substantial amount, like by a few million per year.
3) questioned which was the better job…X or OSU
4] listed several other candidates besides Miller, McDermott, or May
5) said the NIL for X was in good shape compared to many others
6) said that KY spent $10 Million more per year than OSU does on their BB program
7) pointed out that OSU has had 9 out of the last 10 years with double digit loses, and the other year they had 9
8) question it posed…..would Miller leave X for the relatively stable environment of the Big 10? Even if it wasn’t a better path to the F4?


I do recommend spending a few bucks and getting a subscription to The Athletic. They have some great writers and articles. Not just X BB, but they cover lots of college and pro sports. About $5 a month and you can often get a subscription on sale. Well worth it IMO.

[Xville]

Summery…..

1) OSU should throw buckets of money at McDermott or May and hope that they accept……as soon as possible.
2) Xavier outspends OSU on its basketball program by a substantial amount, like by a few million per year.
3) questioned which was the better job…X or OSU
4] listed several other candidates besides Miller, McDermott, or May
5) said the NIL for X was in good shape compared to many others
6) said that KY spent $10 Million more per year than OSU does on their BB program
7) pointed out that OSU has had 9 out of the last 10 years with double digit loses, and the other year they had 9
8) question it posed…..would Miller leave X for the relatively stable environment of the Big 10? Even if it wasn’t a better path to the F4?


I do recommend spending a few bucks and getting a subscription to The Athletic. They have some great writers and articles. Not just X BB, but they cover lots of college and pro sports. About $5 a month and you can often get a subscription on sale. Well worth it IMO.

Thank you for the share, I appreciate it. I have been thinking about joining the athletic, probably will pull the trigger.

The summary reflects what I have heard about that job and why I don’t think there is a chance in h of miller wanting it.

It bears repeating that Rick is a hack and what he wrote is clickbait baloney.

[94GRAD]

Thank you for the share, I appreciate it. I have been thinking about joining the athletic, probably will pull the trigger.

The summary reflects what I have heard about that job and why I don’t think there is a chance in h of miller wanting it.

It bears repeating that Rick is a hack and what he wrote is clickbait baloney.

Serious question, are you a member of the 247 board? Have you actually read anything he's reported about what's going on? There is plenty of context on what he's been saying that is getting lost in the shuffle from fan conjecture. None of what he is saying is clickbait and is actually sourced from people in both the Athletic Department and the basketball team.

[Xville]

Serious question, are you a member of the 247 board? Have you actually read anything he's reported about what's going on? There is plenty of context on what he's been saying that is getting lost in the shuffle from fan conjecture. None of what he is say clickbait and is actually sourced from people in both the Athletic Department and the basketball team.

What has been sourced from what he wrote regarding miller? It’s one source this, one source that from anonymous. You have an affinity for broering, good for you. However he’s completely off base here and anyone with a brain knows what he was doing with the bs of his two “articles.” He’s a non-Xavier fan trying to drum up business. I get it, but let’s call it what it is.

[94GRAD]

What has been sourced from what he wrote regarding miller? It’s one source this, one source that. You have an affinity for broering, good for you. However he’s completely off base here and anyone with a brain knows what he was doing with the bs of his two “articles.” He’s a non-Xavier fan trying to drum up business. I get it, but let’s call it what it is.

Again have you read what he is reporting? He is spot on that there is a slight rift between the basketball program and Greg Christopher. You choose not to believe it, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Xville]

Again have you read what he is reporting? He is spot on that there is a slight rift between the basketball program and Greg Christopher. You choose not to believe it, I don't know what else to tell you.

I choose not to believe rumor and innuendo. As for Christopher, he should have been gone a long time ago.

[xukeith]

X president likely will not let Miller leave.

[94GRAD]

I can tell you because of text and phone calls I've had with people inside the the program, there is a rift. Nothing that Rick is reporting is innuendo or conjecture. Just like you like to tell Strange and Lou, you are wrong. You are free to continue to be wrong.

[94GRAD]

X president likely will not let Miller leave.

I really hope so!

[xuwillie]

I can tell you because of text and phone calls I've had with people inside the the program, there is a rift. Nothing that Rick is reporting is innuendo or conjecture. Just like you like to tell Strange and Lou, you are wrong. You are free to continue to be wrong.

The only you I trust on that board said millers not going anywhere. Doubt he’d say that if there were serious rifts in the athletic dept. Rick is wrong here for throwing that out without any real sources

[94GRAD]

I'm telling you he's has real sources. Choose to believe me or not. There is a real rift but hopefully one that can and will be worked through.

[94GRAD]

The only you I trust on that board said millers not going anywhere. Doubt he’d say that if there were serious rifts in the athletic dept. Rick is wrong here for throwing that out without any real sources

Also, if you go back and look at all of JaJa's predictions, he's wrong more than he's right. People tend to overlook that.

[xuwillie]

Also, if you go back and look at all of JaJa's predictions, he's wrong more than he's right. People tend to overlook that.

Not sure about that. He always seems spot on, sells a lot of court side seats and is telling everyone why we miss out on a recruit like jones to Memphis etc etc. But sure he could be wrong some, sure miller thinks he’s getting guys he doesn’t end up getting too

[bjf123]

Unfortunately, when you have unnamed sources, there will always be people who choose not to believe it. At the same time, you can’t name the sources without getting them in a lot of trouble and then also losing them as a source for anything in the future.

X is certainly not going to come out and publicly say there’s friction between Miller and Christopher. Even if they were to come out and say everything is fine, Broering could still say that he stands by his reporting and no one can prove otherwise unless he could get his sources to go on the record which will never happen.


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[Xville]

Unfortunately, when you have unnamed sources, there will always be people who choose not to believe it. At the same time, you can’t name the sources without getting them in a lot of trouble and then also losing them as a source for anything in the future.

X is certainly not going to come out and publicly say there’s friction between Miller and Christopher. Even if they were to come out and say everything is fine, Broering could still say that he stands by his reporting and no one can prove otherwise unless he could get his sources to go on the record which will never happen.


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Not just unnamed sources but conflicting stories from sources within the admin. Anyone of us could have wrote what he did.

[xudash]

Do we have ANY idea what the friction is about?

[bjf123]

Has anyone summarized what Rick is claiming? There’s a lot of contradictory information in this thread. I did subscribe to his site back when the rumor mill started that Miller was coming back to X. He had some decent information, but I couldn’t get past how poorly setup the forum was so I quickly stopped visiting the site and then canceled the subscription (which was not easy to do).

[Xville]

Has anyone summarized what Rick is claiming? There’s a lot of contradictory information in this thread. I did subscribe to his site back when the rumor mill started that Miller was coming back to X. He had some decent information, but I couldn’t get past how poorly setup the forum was so I quickly stopped visiting the site and then canceled the subscription (which was not easy to do).

Xavier summarized it pretty well in this thread

[XUBison]

Do we have ANY idea what the friction is about?

Hard to imagine, isn’t it, less than two years into this thing?

“Donny, you’re out of your element!” — I’m feeling like Donny right now.

[Xavgrad08]

I have no idea if Sean will or will not leave. It is worth noting the national chatter around Sean started earlier this month before the OSU job opened. Trilly Donovan put on twitter about a coach in the Big East being not as happy as people assume. For those not familiar with Trilly Donovan it is a burner account on Twitter with 49,000 followers. It is followed by Sean, Chris Mack and every assistant on the XU staff. The Athletic had an article last year about who is Trilly Donovan. Rumored to be connected to the agent side. The account is very good when it comes to College Basketball hiring's/ firings. Often breaking news first. It is not always 100 percent accurate, but not pure garbage either.

Aaron Torres national writer that has covered Sean put out a video earlier this week about OSU and listed Sean. He went on to state that rumblings in College Basketball Sean is looking to leave. Video is below and states this around the 6:50 mark. I don't know the accuracy of these things. I do think this could be orchestrated from Sean's agent. Could be orchestrating this because he genuinely wants to leave, or he wants more NIL, Staff Salary etc and is using this as leverage.

I hope Sean is still at Xavier next year. If he does leave this might not be the worst off season for it to happen. Kelsey and Mack are still available and next year I am not sure that will be the case. Not going to lose sleep, but it is annoying how in the transfer portal era the coaching carousel will start earlier and earlier. Sean's name will likely always get tossed around every year before Xavier's season finishes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJka0B2ZFus

[Xville]

If miller were to leave in the next couple of years, I can stop worrying about Xavier basketball because I’ll know the admin isn’t serious about it anymore so why should I be?

My guess though is that this is leverage to get some things miller wants, whatever that is.

[UCGRAD4X]

I like that Sean's name is getting tossed around. It means he is doing something right and is well respected. If he leveraging for something, I hope it is for something like assistants' salaries. I like to think that is the sort of guy he is.

[bjf123]

If miller were to leave in the next couple of years, I can stop worrying about Xavier basketball because I’ll know the admin isn’t serious about it anymore so why should I be?

My guess though is that this is leverage to get some things miller wants, whatever that is.

Agreed. If you’re serious about it, you can’t have the big name head coach you hired less than two years ago leaving unless what he’s asking for is completely unreasonable. I don’t think Sean’s that kind of guy.

Interesting statements in the article from The Athletic. Says X outspent tOSU by$4MM in the recent “reporting period”. Also hints that Miller might want a higher profile and an easier path to the Final Four. Isn’t that why he left X the first time? How’d that work out for him? The positive in the article was that OSU isn’t the clear cut better gig.


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[xudash]

Hard to imagine, isn’t it, less than two years into this thing?

“Donny, you’re out of your element!” — I’m feeling like Donny right now.

Yes, very hard to imagine. I can handle a down season due to roster/transitional issues. Otherwise, I’ve been operating under the assumption that we have our guy now for years to come. Let’s hope calm and reasonable heads prevail.

[bjf123]

I like that Sean's name is getting tossed around. It means he is doing something right and is well respected. If he leveraging for something, I hope it is for something like assistants' salaries. I like to think that is the sort of guy he is.

I’ve heard that our assistants are among the lowest paid in the Big East. If true, that’s embarrassing.


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[xavbball]

I have no idea if Sean will or will not leave. It is worth noting the national chatter around Sean started earlier this month before the OSU job opened. Trilly Donovan put on twitter about a coach in the Big East being not as happy as people assume. For those not familiar with Trilly Donovan it is a burner account on Twitter with 49,000 followers. It is followed by Sean, Chris Mack and every assistant on the XU staff. The Athletic had an article last year about who is Trilly Donovan. Rumored to be connected to the agent side. The account is very good when it comes to College Basketball hiring's/ firings. Often breaking news first. It is not always 100 percent accurate, but not pure garbage either.


That coach is Greg McDermott, not Sean Miller.

[Section 200]

Sean is an excellent coach - at times this season it seems like he is playing for next year instead of this year. Lineups & such. It would be surprising if he left for many reasons but especially since he seems to be getting us ready to be better next year.

We've been down this road many times (Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta, Miller, Mack) so it is what it is. If the unfortunetate happens & he leaves, no more Coach Steele types! Hopefully we get Mack. Would much prefer to keep Miller!

[XUBison]

I’ve heard that our assistants are among the lowest paid in the Big East. If true, that’s embarrassing.


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You mean, like a couple days ago, when someone on this board threw it out there? ;)

[drudy23]

You mean, like a couple days ago, when someone on this board threw it out there? ;)

Is that honestly surprising? It's not to me.

[bjf123]

You mean, like a couple days ago, when someone on this board threw it out there? ;)

It could have even been me. I didn’t go back and reread everything already posted. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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[drudy23]

I periodically look at job postings at XU, as it think it would be a fun way to transition to the latter part of my career. I've never jumped on it because the pay, overall, is outrageously low. I wasn't expecting it to be outstanding, but just too low to even consider a transition.

And while I'm not getting paid anywhere close to the head basketball coach, it's tough for a small private Catholic institution in a mid-tier market to be at the top of the payscale for assistant basketball coaches. In fact, it's probably never going to happen.

[xukeith]

I periodically look at job postings at XU, as it think it would be a fun way to transition to the latter part of my career. I've never jumped on it because the pay, overall, is outrageously low. I wasn't expecting it to be outstanding, but just too low to even consider a transition.

And while I'm not getting paid anywhere close to the head basketball coach, it's tough for a small private Catholic institution in a mid-tier market to be at the top of the payscale for assistant basketball coaches. In fact, it's probably never going to happen.

Didn't Jonas Hayes make close to $200,000 as an assistant?

[drudy23]

Didn't Jonas Hayes make close to $200,000 as an assistant?

Probably. I would guess Sean's current Associate HC is making close to the same, if not more. Asst coaches probably in the $100-150k range?

I'm just saying they are likely at the low end compared to other Big East counterparts - not that they're making chump change. Probably a decent living making that and coaching basketball.

They are likely still in the top 10% of wage earners at XU, right behind the President, ADs, Deans and some tenured professors. Miller is no doubt at the top, right?

I honestly have no clue if the assistants are at the bottom, but as mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me.

[UCGRAD4X]

Of course, the cost of living here is a factor. But, generally speaking, they are not going to be here for the long term and have to consider future cost of living factors.

[Xavier]

And while I'm not getting paid anywhere close to the head basketball coach, it's tough for a small private Catholic institution in a mid-tier market to be at the top of the payscale for assistant basketball coaches. In fact, it's probably never going to happen.

I agree. Honesty I was surprised that X NIL appears to be as good as it is. If you want higher salaries for assistants, you need donors to pay more. There’s only so much to go around, and I’d bet there’s a lot of it going towards NIL. Think that’s where it should go, too. Assistants are probably last to see the money. Kinda weird to think that a bunch of the players make more than the coaches

[X-band '01]

Apparently Rick Pitino is a lot more frustrated than Sean Miller right now.

@adamzagoria "After latest St. John's loss, Rick Pitino laments shitty facilities, lack of toughness and 'lost season' due to recruiting

Too bad I can't find the audio clip of this.

[cinskyline]

Apparently Rick Pitino is a lot more frustrated than Sean Miller right now.

@adamzagoria "After latest St. John's loss, Rick Pitino laments shitty facilities, lack of toughness and 'lost season' due to recruiting

Too bad I can't find the audio clip of this.

He made comments about a month or two ago complaining about the changing recruiting landscape and NIL. Probably just frustration from a mediocre season much like X has had, but something to keep an eye on.


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[X-band '01]

He also made some fresh comments last night ripping into his team after the Seton Hall loss.

ESPN - Fading St. John's "can't guard anybody" - Rick Pitino Says (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39556235/fading-st-john-guard-anybody-rick-pitino-says)

[XUGRAD80]

Cronin learned how to talk about his players from Pitino.

[UCGRAD4X]

Talk about throwing your boys under the bus! He backed it up over them several times. Ouch!

[Xville]

Maybe I am reading too much into it, and I'm being naive, but on the podcast, Miller doesn't sound like someone that has any intention of leaving within the next decade or so. That includes the latest one that I believe was taped over the weekend.

[xubrew]

When it comes to loyalty, you have to think of men's college basketball coaches the same way you think of high school sophomores who are starting out in the dating world. It's really kind of the same thing. They're loyal! They love you! Until a week later when they don't because they now love someone else.

When fans say things like "I can't imagine them leaving," I kind of get it. But that's something that an AD better NEVER say or think! They BETTER be imagining it! They better be imagining it ALL THE TIME!! And they better know what they're going to do, and who they're going to reach out to, and ALWAYS be thinking about...

who will be good at this job?, and

who will WANT this job?

It's XAVIER!! BOTH of those lists should be EXCEPTIONALLY long!! If Sean Miller does leave, that's really not a failure on the part of the program. The failure would be if they are not ready for it. If they can't attract good coaches to XAVIER, then THAT is the problem!!

Every coach leaves eventually, and ninety percent of the time the first time they ever say anything about it is when they tell you that they're gone. That's just how it is. They're 16 year olds. Pretty much ALL of them!

[Xville]

When it comes to loyalty, you have to think of men's college basketball coaches the same way you think of high school sophomores who are starting out in the dating world. It's really kind of the same thing. They're loyal! They love you! Until a week later when they don't because they now love someone else.

When fans say things like "I can't imagine them leaving," I kind of get it. But that's something that an AD better NEVER say or think! They BETTER be imagining it! They better be imagining it ALL THE TIME!! And they better know what they're going to do, and who they're going to reach out to, and ALWAYS be thinking about...

who will be good at this job?, and

who will WANT this job?

It's XAVIER!! BOTH of those lists should be EXCEPTIONALLY long!! If Sean Miller does leave, that's really not a failure on the part of the program. The failure would be if they are not ready for it. If they can't attract good coaches to XAVIER, then THAT is the problem!!

Every coach leaves eventually, and ninety percent of the time the first time they ever say anything about it is when they tell you that they're gone. That's just how it is. They're 16 year olds. Pretty much ALL of them!

While I agree with most of what you said, especially when it comes to every situation besides Sean, I completely disagree when you stated if Sean leaves it’s not a knock on the program. If he leaves this year, it’s a complete abomination and there is something seriously wrong with the highest levels at x imo.

[drudy23]

He made comments about a month or two ago complaining about the changing recruiting landscape and NIL. Probably just frustration from a mediocre season much like X has had, but something to keep an eye on.


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Another guy from a top 3 market complaining about NIL money. You're in NYC, go make it happen. Jesus.

I have no sympathy for guys from top markets complaining about this stuff. There is endless money in NY.

[xubrew]

While I agree with most of what you said, especially when it comes to every situation besides Sean, I completely disagree when you stated if Sean leaves it’s not a knock on the program. If he leaves this year, it’s a complete abomination and there is something seriously wrong with the highest levels at x imo.

If Sean Miller leaves, and he leaves because he thinks a place like Michigan is so much shinier and richer, and Xavier replaces him with some like Dusty May, or Amir Abdur-Rahim, or Pat Kelsey, I don't think there are any problems at all.

If Sean Miller leaves, and it's clear that there were reasons beyond how shiny and rich it was at the new place he went to, and Xavier goes months without making a move and then ends up with some D2 assistant, then yes! That's a sign that something is seriously wrong at a pretty high level.

[UCGRAD4X]

I think of coaches a bit like recruits. If a kid decommits, it is likely an indication that this is not the right place for him after all. A bit like Brew's adolescent comparison (not saying your comparison was an adolescent notion:). Boys that are "fully" committed to the program (maybe even despite the coach) are who we want. I think we get more out that guy than one that always has one eye on the back door.

If Miller wants to leave - now we know how he really feels about X. Per Brew again - we need to be ready.

I have said it before; players come and go, coaches come and go, administrations come and go. We are the ones that remain.

[bjf123]

Any AD worth his salt is constantly updating his list of head coach candidates, even after just signing a new one. Is Christopher doing that? Who knows, but I hope so. I also hope he doesn’t need that list for a long time.

As to NIL money in NYC, there certainly is a boatload of money there. The question is how much of it is willing to be spent on St. John’s University? Money given for NIL is really throw away money for the big donors. Other than helping your school of choice, you’re not really getting anything in return. I expect the whole thing to fall apart like a house of cards at some point.


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[XUGRAD80]

Other than helping your school of choice, you’re not really getting anything in return. I expect the whole thing to fall apart like a house of cards at some point.


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People have been DONATING MONEY to universities, without wanting anything tangible in return, since they began. Many universities only came about because someone donated the land and/or money to start them. The NIL donation system is just a more targeted way of donating. It allows the donor to specify which specific team will get the donation. I don’t see that going away. People like to have some control over how their donations are used. It’s no different than someone donating a sum of money to be used by a certain academic department or to fund a certain study or even specific student grants. I see it growing, not going away.

[Final4]

People have been DONATING MONEY to universities, without wanting anything tangible in return, since they began. Many universities only came about because someone donated the land and/or money to start them. The NIL donation system is just a more targeted way of donating. It allows the donor to specify which specific team will get the donation. I don’t see that going away. People like to have some control over how their donations are used. It’s no different than someone donating a sum of money to be used by a certain academic department or to fund a certain study or even specific student grants. I see it growing, not going away.

May be splitting hairs but this is not a donation to Xavier University. Your check is not made payable to Xavier and, while I'm not certain, your donation is not tax deductible. You could argue that your past donations to Xavier had some level of perpetuity as the monies went to brick and mortar. In the case of NIL donations that's not the case.......it's an expensed item not a capital expenditure. You could of course argue that there is some intrinsic value to raising the profile of the program by securing better players but is that benefit self sustaining?

[xu82]

May be splitting hairs but this is not a donation to Xavier University. Your check is not made payable to Xavier and, while I'm not certain, your donation is not tax deductible. You could argue that your past donations to Xavier had some level of perpetuity as the monies went to brick and mortar. In the case of NIL donations that's not the case.......it's an expensed item not a capital expenditure. You could of course argue that there is some intrinsic value to raising the profile of the program by securing better players but is that benefit self sustaining?

Yeah, it’s more than accounting, it just feels different to me. I’m not saying what’s right or wrong or how anyone else should feel, but giving to the university feels good on some level. NIL feels like I’m paying some kid to play basketball for me to watch. Maybe that’s just me, and I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it’s an adjustment I struggle with.

[A Fan]

The donations to Final 2% are tax deductible since it is a 501 (c) (3). Donors have historically given to the university because they think it is an institution worth perpetuating. Some are saying that you should give to Final 2% since the money will attract good basketball players. If one wants bragging rights that Xavier has a good basketball team that is a motive to give. If one believes that men’s basketball drives enrollment and donations to academics and a poor or no basketball team is an existential threat that may be a motive to give.

[xudash]

The donations to Final 2% are tax deductible since it is a 501 (c) (3). Donors have historically given to the university because they think it is an institution worth perpetuating. Some are saying that you should give to Final 2% since the money will attract good basketball players. If one wants bragging rights that Xavier has a good basketball team that is a motive to give. If one believes that men’s basketball drives enrollment and donations to academics and a poor or no basketball team is an existential threat that may be a motive to give.

It can’t be put any clearer than this.

And I certainly understand that we’re in a brave new world with it.

[XUGRAD80]

I buy tickets to college sporting events because I want to be entertained. It’s an enjoyable experience. But it’s much more enjoyable when the teams I root for win. I donate to the NIL so that they will be able to attract players that give them a better chance of winning. So that it will be a more enjoyable experience for me.

I don’t claim to do because I think that the players are due it. And I don’t care about bragging about X to others. I don’t do it because I Love dear old U. I do it because I want the schools I root for to be successful and I believe that a strong NIL program will make that more likely.

Making my spectating and viewing experience more enjoyable is the tangible return that I’m looking for.

[bjf123]

Seems strange that an organization set up purely to pay college athletes, most of whom are getting a free college education, would qualify as a 501 (c)(3) charity, but it does.


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[A Fan]

I buy tickets to college sporting events because I want to be entertained. It’s an enjoyable experience. But it’s much more enjoyable when the teams I root for win. I donate to the NIL so that they will be able to attract players that give them a better chance of winning. So that it will be a more enjoyable experience for me.

I don’t claim to do because I think that the players are due it. And I don’t care about bragging about X to others. I don’t do it because I Love dear old U. I do it because I want the schools I root for to be successful and I believe that a strong NIL program will make that more likely.

Making my spectating and viewing experience more enjoyable is the tangible return that I’m looking for.

Interesting. You don’t care whether Xavier exists or not. You know your NIL contributions will end up in the pockets of players not entitled to those contributions. You simply like to associate with , cheer for and financially support basketball teams that are winners since that enhances your enjoyment as a committed spectator. Dan Hurley would like your phone number.

[XUGRAD80]

Interesting. You don’t care whether Xavier exists or not. You know your NIL contributions will end up in the pockets of players not entitled to those contributions. You simply like to associate with , cheer for and financially support basketball teams that are winners since that enhances your enjoyment as a committed spectator. Dan Hurley would like your phone number.

I have no idea what makes you think that I don’t care whether X exists or not. Nor do I understand why you think that players aren’t entitled to NIL contributions. I’m an X grad and former intercollegiate athlete for X. But now I am simply am a fan and like to have fun with my fandom. Watching X win games is more fun than watching X lose. I root for X in every game and always will.

Winning makes being a fan more fun…..that’s a controversial concept?

I will do what I can to help that happen, and what I can do is contribute to the NIL…which I absolutely do think the athletes are entitled to.

[XUBison]

I have no idea what makes you think that I don’t care whether X exists or not. Nor do I understand why you think that players aren’t entitled to NIL contributions. I’m an X grad and former intercollegiate athlete for X. But now I am simply am a fan and like to have fun with my fandom. Watching X win games is more fun than watching X lose. I root for X in every game and always will.

Winning makes being a fan more fun…..that’s a controversial concept?

I will do what I can to help that happen, and what I can do is contribute to the NIL…which I absolutely do think the athletes are entitled to.

Players are entitled to charitable donations?

[XUGRAD80]

Players are entitled to charitable donations?

If the contributions are made to a fund that is set up for their benefit, who else would be entitled to the contributions made to that fund?

[xukeith]

Aren't contributions to players on full scholarships not gifts to charities?

[bjf123]

Aren't contributions to players on full scholarships not gifts to charities?

Except you’re not contributing directly to the players. You’re contributing to the NIL entity, which is a charity, at least as far as the IRS is concerned.


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[xubrew]

I get the sense that the vast majority of people who are donating to NIL collectives are people who were either not donating to those colleges or universities prior to donating to an NIL collective, or if they were they are continuing to do so. I'm sure there are SOME cases of people who will choose to donate to an NIL collective instead of giving to the general university fund, but not many.

I also feel that people have a right to do whatever they like with their money. I have a cousin that spends $10k a year going to NFL games both at home on the road. I think that's insane, but that's what he likes to do. Good for him! So, if this is what you want to do, then do it!

[D-West & PO-Z]

https://theathletic.com/5276013/2024/02/14/ohio-state-coaching-candidates-mcdermott-may-tang/?source=user_shared_article

Here’s another take on the OSU thing from The Athletic. One very interesting and somewhat surprising take from the article concerns XU v OSU spending on Men’s BB. Probably will surprise most other people too.

I saw a stat last year on the Top 20 Men's Basketball budgets in the country for 2022-2023 and Xavier was 8th in the country ahead of teams like IU, Marquette, Kansas, Syracuse, and Georgetown.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Cronin learned how to talk about his players from Pitino.

Bingo

[drudy23]

Bingo

And Huggins.

[MHettel]

I saw a stat last year on the Top 20 Men's Basketball budgets in the country for 2022-2023 and Xavier was 8th in the country ahead of teams like IU, Marquette, Kansas, Syracuse, and Georgetown.

We've been through this over and over.

It all comes down to accounting mumbo jumbo. Period.

[D-West & PO-Z]

We've been through this over and over.

It all comes down to accounting mumbo jumbo. Period.

I totally agree when it comes to looking at one specific school who claims they are making no money or losing money.

But all the schools do the same thing, so there is not zero significance to the fact (if what I saw was true) that Xavier spent in the top 10 in the country on men's basketball.

[GoMuskies]

I think not having football is a big part of that. All the administrative spending that gets partially (maybe mostly) allocated to football at the "bigger" schools gets fully allocated to basketball at Xavier. Still good to see us outspend our non-football playing rivals!

[xudash]

I totally agree when it comes to looking at one specific school who claims they are making no money or losing money.

But all the schools do the same thing, so there is not zero significance to the fact (if what I saw was true) that Xavier spent in the top 10 in the country on men's basketball.

May I add that this is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, in the sense that it shows the school is committed to the sport and invests in it accordingly. I believe I would love to be told that while taking a tour of the fabulous Cintas Center as a top recruit.

[xubrew]

We've been through this over and over.

It all comes down to accounting mumbo jumbo. Period.


I totally agree when it comes to looking at one specific school who claims they are making no money or losing money.

But all the schools do the same thing, so there is not zero significance to the fact (if what I saw was true) that Xavier spent in the top 10 in the country on men's basketball.

Maybe, but it's enough mumbo jumbo to where I wouldn't take it seriously at all on its face. That would go for any of the 1100 NCAA members. Based on how revenues and expenses work in regards to NCAA reporting, if a school writes itself a check for $100 million dollars, they will have made $100 million dollars!! They will also have spent $100 million dollars. In reality, they've done nothing, but technically, that's $100 in spending! Or...in expenses!! Whichever a school may choose to emphasize.

I am not making that up.

[MHettel]

the accounting gymnastics are SO crucial to these stupid rankings that the NOISE is louder than the SIGNAL.

Just use your common sense. Does it make sense to you that Xavier would be in the top 10 in basketball spending out of 375 teams? If measured consistently across all schools. Does that make sense?

If you said top 10%, then I can start to buy in. But top 10? Pure accounting tricks.

Didnt someone have alink to a site that collected all this data? I looked at it and the data is so whack, thats its useless for comparative purposes.

[xubrew]

the accounting gymnastics are SO crucial to these stupid rankings that the NOISE is louder than the SIGNAL.

Just use your common sense. Does it make sense to you that Xavier would be in the top 10 in basketball spending out of 375 teams? If measured consistently across all schools. Does that make sense?

If you said top 10%, then I can start to buy in. But top 10? Pure accounting tricks.

Didnt someone have alink to a site that collected all this data? I looked at it and the data is so whack, thats its useless for comparative purposes.

Knock yourself out!

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

the accounting gymnastics are SO crucial to these stupid rankings that the NOISE is louder than the SIGNAL.

Just use your common sense. Does it make sense to you that Xavier would be in the top 10 in basketball spending out of 375 teams? If measured consistently across all schools. Does that make sense?

If you said top 10%, then I can start to buy in. But top 10? Pure accounting tricks.

Didnt someone have alink to a site that collected all this data? I looked at it and the data is so whack, thats its useless for comparative purposes.

Have to agree. Common sense just seems to rip the guts out of this claim. Not saying it cannot be true. But I'm sure in addition to using good old sensible logic, Hettel has also calculated the probabilities of it being true and determined them to be quite small.

[Xville]

All that really matters (not that it necessarily does) is that X most likely does outspend Ohio State for basketball.

I don't understand the talking heads that keep saying well Ohio State will just open up the pocketbook for "the right coach." MMMK. If that was the case, they would have done that a decade or two ago. Football reigns...if the basketball team is good, that's nice..an extra million or two in rev will really help the football team. But to say that Ohio State is going to put the cart before the horse in terms of opening up the pocketbook and nil dollars sounds made up to me. After including the private institutions, Holtmann probably wasn't even making top 40 money.

I believe people (podcasters, field of 68, writers) are overestimating how good of a job that really is.

[MHettel]

Knock yourself out!

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

thanks. The way the data is grouped makes it difficult. Its kind of broad spending on "mens teams" which can vary based on how many sports a school has. There are some weird categories...

...BUT there is a category called "Operating expenses" for mens basketball. Lets just sample THAT line....I'll pick Xavier, plus 5 Private schools and 5 Public Schools. All of these schools are in a decent conference and / or at least appear to be trying to compete....

Duke- 5.5M
Nova- 4.7M
Oklahoma- 3.0M
XU- 2.5M
Vanderbilt- 2.4M
Iowa- 2.1M
Missouri- 2.0M
Dayton- 1.9M
UCLA- 1.9M
Gonzaga- 1.5M
Arizona St- 1.2M


And there is also, "expenses" Mens Basketball

Duke- 28.0M
Nova 18.7M
Xavier 16.1M (16,067,813 to be exact)
Vanderbilt 13.6M
Oklahoma- 12.4M
Gonzaga- 12.0M
UCLA- 11.9M
Missouri- 10.2M
Iowa 10.0M
Arizona St- 9.0M
Dayton- 8.6M

And of course there is revenue...mens basketball

Duke 45.1
Nova 20.5
Gonzaga 17.1
Dayton 16.9
Xavier 16.1 (16,067,816 to be exact)
Iowa 14.3
Oklahoma- 14.0
Vanderbilt- 13.6
UCLA 12.9
Missouri- 12.2
Arizona St- 9.5

and finally, expenses not allocated by gender / sport
Iowa 43.8M
UCLA 39.0M
Missouri 34.0M
Oklahoma 30.2M
Vanderbilt 24.9M (24,927,339 to be EXACT)
Nova 13.3M
Dayton 10.9M
Xavier 9.9M (9,949,116)
Gonzaga 8.6M
Duke- 6.4M
Arizona State- 2.6M




and REVENUE not allocated by Gender / Sport
Oklahoma 74.8M
UCLA 45.8M
Missouri 39.0M
Duke 38.2M
Iowa 32.1M
Vanderbilt 24.9M (24,927,339 to be EXACT! what a coincidence that it matches the unallocated expenses EXACTLY!)
Arizona St 26.7M
Nova 15.1M
Dayton 10.9M
Xavier 9.9M (9,949,116, hey another match!)
Gonzaga 2.9M


I can see at least a DOZEN things that catch my eye and immediately call into question the utility of this information. Imagine you worked at a company and you boss said "we have 11 stores and we need to cut the bottom 2. YOU have to make the decision using only this information....we're all counting on you, dont fuck it up!"

Ok, well cutting Dayton would be easy, but other than that no thanks!

[MHettel]

All that really matters (not that it necessarily does) is that X most likely does outspend Ohio State for basketball.



Outspend in what way, and WHY does that "really matter"? Coaches and Staff salaries? Facilities and Amenities? Recruiting budgets? Travel and accommodations? Having a brand new giant scoreboard?

At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is the size of the NIL. College Basketball has become a professional sport and teams all have a payroll budget. This is baseball before any salary caps or luxury taxes. It doesnt matter how much the school spends. What matters is how much money will be available to pay the players which will define the quality and depth of each roster, and that will translate to wins and losses.

[xubrew]

Outspend in what way, and WHY does that "really matter"? Coaches and Staff salaries? Facilities and Amenities? Recruiting budgets? Travel and accommodations? Having a brand new giant scoreboard?

At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is the size of the NIL. College Basketball has become a professional sport and teams all have a payroll budget. This is baseball before any salary caps or luxury taxes. It doesnt matter how much the school spends. What matters is how much money will be available to pay the players which will define the quality and depth of each roster, and that will translate to wins and losses.

He's right, yunno...

[Xville]

Outspend in what way, and WHY does that "really matter"? Coaches and Staff salaries? Facilities and Amenities? Recruiting budgets? Travel and accommodations? Having a brand new giant scoreboard?

At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is the size of the NIL. College Basketball has become a professional sport and teams all have a payroll budget. This is baseball before any salary caps or luxury taxes. It doesnt matter how much the school spends. What matters is how much money will be available to pay the players which will define the quality and depth of each roster, and that will translate to wins and losses.

All of it matters not just nil. Facilities, coaching salaries etc etc. yeah of course nil will be a part of it, but I’m gonna guess that if you speak with Sean miller, his concern from a financial perspective is not just on nil.

Take Quincy for example and what he said on the podcast. A ton of schools wanted him, and I’m sure nil played a part in that but he mentioned a bunch of other things that got him to commit to x (big east, Cintas, miller, relationship between rice coach and miller, and actually academics.) for some guys yeah nil will be all that matters but others will care about other things.

Even in pro sports, yeah of course their money is a big factor but you hear all the time of guys taking equal or less money than another place because of x,y,z.

All of it matters

[XUBison]

All of it matters not just nil. Facilities, coaching salaries etc etc. yeah of course nil will be a part of it, but I’m gonna guess that if you speak with Sean miller, his concern from a financial perspective is not just on nil.

Take Quincy for example and what he said on the podcast. A ton of schools wanted him, and I’m sure nil played a part in that but he mentioned a bunch of other things that got him to commit to x (big east, Cintas, miller, relationship between rice coach and miller, and actually academics.) for some guys yeah nil will be all that matters but others will care about other things.

Even in pro sports, yeah of course their money is a big factor but you hear all the time of guys taking equal or less money than another place because of x,y,z.

All of it matters

Sure, it’s nice to say all those things matter, but do they really? I suspect the schools that best and most quickly adapt to focus athletic fundraising on NIL will thrive, while those that continue to focus on facilities, admin, and ancillary benefits will struggle to keep up. Before some nutterbutter response by saying that universities will continue to fund these other factors, of course they will, but I think the arms race we have seen in these regards will become a secondary concern.

If I were Sean right now, I would expect the university to push athletic boosters to focus on NIL, and I wouldn’t give a flip about the weight room or practice gym. That might be an uncomfortable reality for many administrators, but the savvy ones will understand the imperative.

[Section 200]

All that really matters (not that it necessarily does) is that X most likely does outspend Ohio State for basketball.

I don't understand the talking heads that keep saying well Ohio State will just open up the pocketbook for "the right coach." MMMK. If that was the case, they would have done that a decade or two ago. Football reigns...if the basketball team is good, that's nice..an extra million or two in rev will really help the football team. But to say that Ohio State is going to put the cart before the horse in terms of opening up the pocketbook and nil dollars sounds made up to me. After including the private institutions, Holtmann probably wasn't even making top 40 money.

I believe people (podcasters, field of 68, writers) are overestimating how good of a job that really is.

Agree - Ohio St is completely focused on beating Michigan in football. If they manage to lose again this year the university may be burnt down. They would trade away a good basketball season for 3 more first downs vs UM.

[XUBison]

If the contributions are made to a fund that is set up for their benefit, who else would be entitled to the contributions made to that fund?

Hmmm… I would think they’re entitled to what they *earn*.

[D-West & PO-Z]

All of it matters not just nil. Facilities, coaching salaries etc etc. yeah of course nil will be a part of it, but I’m gonna guess that if you speak with Sean miller, his concern from a financial perspective is not just on nil.

Take Quincy for example and what he said on the podcast. A ton of schools wanted him, and I’m sure nil played a part in that but he mentioned a bunch of other things that got him to commit to x (big east, Cintas, miller, relationship between rice coach and miller, and actually academics.) for some guys yeah nil will be all that matters but others will care about other things.

Even in pro sports, yeah of course their money is a big factor but you hear all the time of guys taking equal or less money than another place because of x,y,z.

All of it matters

Spot on

[MHettel]

All of it matters not just nil. Facilities, coaching salaries etc etc. yeah of course nil will be a part of it, but I’m gonna guess that if you speak with Sean miller, his concern from a financial perspective is not just on nil.

Take Quincy for example and what he said on the podcast. A ton of schools wanted him, and I’m sure nil played a part in that but he mentioned a bunch of other things that got him to commit to x (big east, Cintas, miller, relationship between rice coach and miller, and actually academics.) for some guys yeah nil will be all that matters but others will care about other things.

Even in pro sports, yeah of course their money is a big factor but you hear all the time of guys taking equal or less money than another place because of x,y,z.

All of it matters

Did Quincy mention how much NIL money he got? Did he mention if XU had the highest NIL offer? If not did he mention what the highest NIL offer was?

Generally speaking, In an interview like that most people will answer the question with the “money isn’t everything” answer. But is that a genuine answer? Unless I know the answers to those other 3 questions I can’t rule out that Quincy just gets to have it both ways. He gets a great NIL from XU and ALSO gets to take the high road by claiming money isn’t everything.

For instance, if he was offered 300k from a school and instead chose XU for an NIL of 100k, then yeah it’s a genuine statement.

But we don’t know. And I won’t hang my hat on it

[XUGRAD80]

All of it matters not just nil. Facilities, coaching salaries etc etc. yeah of course nil will be a part of it, but I’m gonna guess that if you speak with Sean miller, his concern from a financial perspective is not just on nil.

Take Quincy for example and what he said on the podcast. A ton of schools wanted him, and I’m sure nil played a part in that but he mentioned a bunch of other things that got him to commit to x (big east, Cintas, miller, relationship between rice coach and miller, and actually academics.) for some guys yeah nil will be all that matters but others will care about other things.

Even in pro sports, yeah of course their money is a big factor but you hear all the time of guys taking equal or less money than another place because of x,y,z.

All of it matters

Absolutely correct. I can’t count high enough to tell you how many times I’ve read that a kid said that he wants to go play for a coach/program that will develop them for the pros. NIL money is nice but 99% if it is less than peanuts when compared to NBA money. Most kids know that they need to develop in order to get some of that money and they know which coaches/programs have a track record of making that happen. For the top kids that seems to be a much bigger concern than what kind of NIL money they will get.

Getting this back onto the original topic…Sean Miller. He made a point in his last podcast that the way that Xavier uses film to help kids develop was seen by him as a big recruiting tool.

[Xavier]

. It doesnt matter how much the school spends. What matters is how much money will be available to pay the players which will define the quality and depth of each roster, and that will translate to wins and losses.

I think there’s a huge overreaction to how NIL will kill the sport. There’s more parity than ever before…we are fresh off a final four where the average seed was 5.75. There’s just a ton of solid talent, building a final four team will not be strictly NIL as you suggest.

Just look at X, we lost two guys we wanted bad due to NIL (Kerr Kriisa and Paul Mulcahy). Q/McKnight both have been better.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If I was a sought after guard from a mid major league looking to transfer up, I'd be hard pressed not to seriously consider X after two seasons in a row that Boum and Quincy have had under Miller.

Now we just need to land a big guy to do something similar.

[MHettel]

If I was a sought after guard from a mid major league looking to transfer up, I'd be hard pressed not to seriously consider X after two seasons in a row that Boum and Quincy have had under Miller.

Now we just need to land a big guy to do something similar.

I agree. XU would be a great option for an established player looking to improve his profile. And for that matter, so would a bunch of other schools. So if it comes down to NIL, we better hope that we can put a competitive number on the table…

Speaking of, is there anything that would forbid a player from having an agent? Like a guy that just says if you can’t get to $X dollars, then just tell us now so we can focus on teams that can get to our number. It’s like you’d didn’t see the Pirates make an offer to Ohtani for 60M over 5 years, right? Like what’s the point? Some teams just know they aren’t in the discussion

[Xville]

Did Quincy mention how much NIL money he got? Did he mention if XU had the highest NIL offer? If not did he mention what the highest NIL offer was?

Generally speaking, In an interview like that most people will answer the question with the “money isn’t everything” answer. But is that a genuine answer? Unless I know the answers to those other 3 questions I can’t rule out that Quincy just gets to have it both ways. He gets a great NIL from XU and ALSO gets to take the high road by claiming money isn’t everything.

For instance, if he was offered 300k from a school and instead chose XU for an NIL of 100k, then yeah it’s a genuine statement.

But we don’t know. And I won’t hang my hat on it

Based on everything that i have heard and read and personally experienced with q I have no reason to not believe what he says. I’m sure he got a competitive offer but just for the simple fact of how many schools reached out, I’m gonna assume that x didn’t just outbid everyone. Yeah I’m connecting some dots but just anecdotally I know that it’s not just about the money for most folks in any profession.

With how q described the relationship he had with rice’s coach you could tell that whereever he ended up going, that coach was going to have to give that new school his seal of approval. I’m sure there were schools that reached out to q that rices coach disapproved of for one reason or another even if their nil figure was higher.


For the record, I highly recommend any x fan to watch the podcast. It is very well done and humanizes these guys. Sometimes you forget that these are real people with real life going on. They aren’t all about seeking the highest dollar amount… some I’m sure are, but many aren’t

[MHettel]

Based on everything that i have heard and read and personally experienced with q I have no reason to not believe what he says. I’m sure he got a competitive offer but just for the simple fact of how many schools reached out, I’m gonna assume that x didn’t just outbid everyone. Yeah I’m connecting some dots but just anecdotally I know that it’s not just about the money for most folks in any profession.

With how q described the relationship he had with rice’s coach you could tell that whereever he ended up going, that coach was going to have to give that new school his seal of approval. I’m sure there were schools that reached out to q that rices coach disapproved of for one reason or another even if their nil figure was higher.


For the record, I highly recommend any x fan to watch the podcast. It is very well done and humanizes these guys. Sometimes you forget that these are real people with real life going on. They aren’t all about seeking the highest dollar amount… some I’m sure are, but many aren’t

I don’t think x outbid anyone for q. I think we had a competitive offer that got us into the discussion. Then, the playing field was level and Miller got it done. He’s been great for us.

Alternatively, I’d like to get the inside scoop on Graham Ike who picked Gonzaga. Arguably, both schools offer much more than NIL. But which school offered much more NIL?

How would Ike have fit on this team with essentially zero production from the 4/5?

[Xville]

I don’t think x outbid anyone for q. I think we had a competitive offer that got us into the discussion. Then, the playing field was level and Miller got it done. He’s been great for us.

Alternatively, I’d like to get the inside scoop on Graham Ike who picked Gonzaga. Arguably, both schools offer much more than NIL. But which school offered much more NIL?

How would Ike have fit on this team with essentially zero production from the 4/5?

Unfortunately, I don't think we are ever going to get a dollar amount or anywhere close to a dollar amount on what specific guys cost. It's one of the many problems I personally have with NIL. All I know is that X was significantly outspent when it came to Ike, and he wanted the bag.

I don't mean this as a knock on Q but there are a lot of guys 6'0-6'5 out there who can shoot in the transfer portal every year. I doubt many of them can command big numbers. I think the opposite is true for a guy like Ike. Everyone is looking for that 4/5 guy because there just aren't a lot out there.

In regards to Ike, he certainly would have helped X offensively, I haven't seen enough of him this year to see about defensively.

Just another note, he sat out last year due to a foot fracture and has been healthy all season. Hopefully, the same can be said of Free next year.

[MHettel]

Unfortunately, I don't think we are ever going to get a dollar amount or anywhere close to a dollar amount on what specific guys cost. It's one of the many problems I personally have with NIL. All I know is that X was significantly outspent when it came to Ike, and he wanted the bag.

So it came down to NIL. Like I’ve been saying it would.

Ike averages 16 & 7 on 61% shooting in 23 minutes. It would appear that he’s actually more productive offensively than Free. Certainly not worse defensively.

Came down to money

[Xville]

So it came down to NIL. Like I’ve been saying it would.

Ike averages 16 & 7 on 61% shooting in 23 minutes. It would appear that he’s actually more productive offensively than Free. Certainly not worse defensively.

Came down to money

yeah in his case, it came down to money. As I have said, with some guys it will simply be money, for a lot of others it won't be. Just like the general US population...some people chase the bag and thats all they care about. Others factor in work/life balance, location etc etc

[drudy23]

Ike picked Gonzaga. Money was a factor, but Gonzaga also has many (or more) of the intangibles as well. It's not like we lost out to Dayton.

At most great programs, you can get both. And if all else is equal, money will win out, especially for the game-changing type of player.

[muskieindent]

Did Quincy mention how much NIL money he got? Did he mention if XU had the highest NIL offer? If not did he mention what the highest NIL offer was?

Generally speaking, In an interview like that most people will answer the question with the “money isn’t everything” answer. But is that a genuine answer? Unless I know the answers to those other 3 questions I can’t rule out that Quincy just gets to have it both ways. He gets a great NIL from XU and ALSO gets to take the high road by claiming money isn’t everything.

For instance, if he was offered 300k from a school and instead chose XU for an NIL of 100k, then yeah it’s a genuine statement.

But we don’t know. And I won’t hang my hat on it

Quincy's mom regularly posts on #1 Xavier Musketeer fans on Facebook She said he had better offers than Xavier but it sounds like he wanted to play for Sean,He also has an agent who is getting him money from other sources

[xubrew]

I think there’s a huge overreaction to how NIL will kill the sport. There’s more parity than ever before…we are fresh off a final four where the average seed was 5.75. There’s just a ton of solid talent, building a final four team will not be strictly NIL as you suggest.

Just look at X, we lost two guys we wanted bad due to NIL (Kerr Kriisa and Paul Mulcahy). Q/McKnight both have been better.


Anybody want to share any thoughts or guesses as to why there actually seems to be MORE parity now than there was before???

I agree. There is now a lot more parity in men's college basketball. And it kind of makes a lot of sense as to why that is. Now...why is that??

EDIT: Yeah, I admit that I probably come off sounding a bit like an asshole, but I'm deciding to be selfish. I'm genuinely curious to know why people think this is. I also kind of wonder why more people who closely follow the sport such as the media haven't noticed or commented on what should be virtually impossible to not notice. I'll share my thoughts on why in a little bit.

[drudy23]

NIL in combination with the transfer landscape has put itself on an unsustainable path. NIL alone, honestly, isn't that much different than it was. It's just legal now. We're still behind the big boys, and always will be.

Xavier is kind of a niche market (not Cincinnati but in the landscape of college hoops) for talent. They can't "pay" with the big boys, but they can make due on their promise of a fantastic career and the potential of the next level. We may get a top 50 kid every now and then, but it's really not the bread and butter.

It would take a Butler 2-3 year stretch or a quick rise like Duke for us to start really having a chance for the All American type recruits.

[MHettel]

Anybody want to share any thoughts or guesses as to why there actually seems to be MORE parity now than there was before???

I agree. There is now a lot more parity in men's college basketball. And it kind of makes a lot of sense as to why that is. Now...why is that??

EDIT: Yeah, I admit that I probably come off sounding a bit like an asshole, but I'm deciding to be selfish. I'm genuinely curious to know why people think this is. I'll share my thoughts on why in a little bit.

because of adoption. Just like with any external change to an industry, some become early adopters and get a quick advantage. Other may sit back and when it's time to adopt are simply left behind.

Ask Blockbuster Video how that worked out. Or better yet, ask Netflix. Netflix exploited the Blockbuster model using mail order movies with a different pricing structure, then they went streaming, then they went into producing their own content.

The 5th year covid thing was a dislocation event that caused a little more noise than usual. The 2 major changes that occured were the transfer portal and the NIL. EACH of these changes by itself would have had an impact to the overall college BBall Landscape. Having them implemented concurrently has been a HUGE change and some teams have gotten on board quickly (Netfix) while others have sat back with the idea that this will all just blow over and things will get back to "normal" soon (Blockbuster).

Each year, we will see more and more teams realizing that we have entered a new reality of what it will take to compete. The teams with the most access to NIL dollars will attract the best players AND the best coaches (that only makes sense, right). Then we will have the New York Yankees vs the LA Dodgers.

There are 2 particular transfer occurrences that I think are worth looking at...

Arthur Kaluma started 67 games for Creighton as a Freshman / Soph. Creighton went 45-21 and made an elite 8. Creighton was returning Kalk, Schiereman and Alexander and was a top 10 pre-season team. So, Kaluma transferred....to K State, who is 15-11? Like what was the thought process on this? This HAD to be about money right? In this case, it doesnt appear that Kaluma was deciding on 2 equivalent basketball situations and money becasme the deciding factor. This was him moving into a WORSE basketball situation just for the money....IMO.

Hunter Dickenson is another one. Started 91 games with Michigan, and earned all sorts of honors / accolades. He bolted for Kansas, which undeniably is a better basketball situation, but from what I heard it became an auction for his services. What if some run-of -the -mill team like Georgia Tech or Minnesota would have come with 1.5X whatever NIL he got from Kansas? Would he have gone there? Seems like thats what Kaluma did.

I would not rule out the possibility that some mega rich guy with f-you money that went to some random fringe school will just bankroll the roster and launch them into the compeitiveness overnight.

Hell, if I had F-you money, then kaluma AND Dickenson would both be wearing XU uniforms, and we'd have our FF tickets pre-ordered.

Thats the long answer to Brews question. The short answer is .....just wait.

[xubrew]

because of adoption. Just like with any external change to an industry, some become early adopters and get a quick advantage. Other may sit back and when it's time to adopt are simply left behind.

Ask Blockbuster Video how that worked out. Or better yet, ask Netflix. Netflix exploited the Blockbuster model using mail order movies with a different pricing structure, then they went streaming, then they went into producing their own content.

The 5th year covid thing was a dislocation event that caused a little more noise than usual. The 2 major changes that occured were the transfer portal and the NIL. EACH of these changes by itself would have had an impact to the overall college BBall Landscape. Having them implemented concurrently has been a HUGE change and some teams have gotten on board quickly (Netfix) while others have sat back with the idea that this will all just blow over and things will get back to "normal" soon (Blockbuster).

Each year, we will see more and more teams realizing that we have entered a new reality of what it will take to compete. The teams with the most access to NIL dollars will attract the best players AND the best coaches (that only makes sense, right). Then we will have the New York Yankees vs the LA Dodgers.

There are 2 particular transfer occurrences that I think are worth looking at...

Arthur Kaluma started 67 games for Creighton as a Freshman / Soph. Creighton went 45-21 and made an elite 8. Creighton was returning Kalk, Schiereman and Alexander and was a top 10 pre-season team. So, Kaluma transferred....to K State, who is 15-11? Like what was the thought process on this? This HAD to be about money right? In this case, it doesnt appear that Kaluma was deciding on 2 equivalent basketball situations and money becasme the deciding factor. This was him moving into a WORSE basketball situation just for the money....IMO.

Hunter Dickenson is another one. Started 91 games with Michigan, and earned all sorts of honors / accolades. He bolted for Kansas, which undeniably is a better basketball situation, but from what I heard it became an auction for his services. What if some run-of -the -mill team like Georgia Tech or Minnesota would have come with 1.5X whatever NIL he got from Kansas? Would he have gone there? Seems like thats what Kaluma did.

I would not rule out the possibility that some mega rich guy with f-you money that went to some random fringe school will just bankroll the roster and launch them into the compeitiveness overnight.

Hell, if I had F-you money, then kaluma AND Dickenson would both be wearing XU uniforms, and we'd have our FF tickets pre-ordered.

Thats the long answer to Brews question. The short answer is .....just wait.

This may be part of it, but the biggest reason is far more simple than this...

[MHettel]

This may be part of it, but the biggest reason is far more simple than this...

spit it out.

is this some kind of tease? what are you doing?

If you dont have some kind of earth shattering take on this, then I'm gonna roast you.

[xubrew]

spit it out.

is this some kind of tease? what are you doing?

If you dont have some kind of earth shattering take on this, then I'm gonna roast you.

Exactly what I said. I want to hear what other people think it is first simply for my own curiosity.

I'll tell you right now that it's really not all that Earth shattering either.

[MHettel]

Exactly what I said. I want to hear what other people think it is first simply for my own curiosity.

I'll tell you right now that it's really not all that Earth shattering either.

You are acting like you have this insight that nobody has. And you are waiting for all of "us" to give our wrong answers before you share your wisdom.

weird

[A Fan]

This may be part of it, but the biggest reason is far more simple than this...

The pipeline that produces good/great college basketball players is bigger and has more velocity. Money has created the incentive for more kids to develop the skills to grab the brass ring. When you watch this year’s March Madness focusing on the breadth of the talent level…it will be obvious. Only 5 players can play at one time. And you can construct a strong roster with one awesome big and one 3 point shooter. As we say , this year’s team is two players away from being in the top 3 of the Big East.

[Final4]

Because in reality there isn't MORE parity. It's exactly the same as it's always been. A couple of teams buy their way into relevance last year and all of sudden people are saying that we now have an equal playing field.

[xubrew]

You are acting like you have this insight that nobody has. And you are waiting for all of "us" to give our wrong answers before you share your wisdom.

weird

You're right, and I didn't really mean to. I really was just legitimately curious.

A lot of players were getting paid before NIL. A LOT of them. My honest guess (take it or leave it) was that 1/3rd of all D1 players were getting some sort of extra benefits. Now, obviously some were getting more than others, but a lot were getting them. It's been that way for decades. Not all the programs did it, but a lot of the major ones and highly successful ones did.

Now that ANY program can do it, it's kind of like when prohibition went away. Now that it's legit, the illegal operations aren't quite as powerful or profitable. And a lot of programs that wouldn't or couldn't do it before are doing it now, and they're getting better players. A lot of the agents are still around and they're still powerful, but they're not quite as essential as they used to be. When Weber State can get a player like Dillon Jones, and UNC Asheville can get a player like Drew Pember, and while a guy Aaron Estrada did transfer out of Hofstra (presumably for more NIL money) he did at least go there initially. Howard has a guy that's a pro prospect (who's name I can't remember), but....HOWARD!!!! Programs don't have to decide to go through those old backchannels anymore, nor do they need access to them if they were to decide to do it like they used to.

That's not Earth shattering. That's not complicated. That's just simple. And it kind of was rather predictable. In fact I think many on this site have talked about it before when all this was starting to come down.

[GoMuskies]

Because in reality there isn't MORE parity. It's exactly the same as it's always been. A couple of teams buy their way into relevance last year and all of sudden people are saying that we now have an equal playing field.

I don't think it's really that. SDSU and FAU just had big runs paired with a fair amount of luck. Particularly FAU getting to play FDU instead of Purdue.

I don't think those two paid their way into anything.

[Xville]

Nil and transfer portal. The end. Both are good for the player and for parity. There are only five players on the court

[xubrew]

I don't think it's really that. SDSU and FAU just had big runs paired with a fair amount of luck. Particularly FAU getting to play FDU instead of Purdue.

I don't think those two paid their way into anything.

I do think that, at least in the case of FAU, they were able to get “more fair” (for lack of a better term) access to players without a major apparel deal and/or without access to “runners” than they would have ever had prior to NIL.

And yes, I know they have a deal with a major apparel company, but the deal itself wasn’t all that major.

[MHettel]

You're right, and I didn't really mean to. I really was just legitimately curious.

A lot of players were getting paid before NIL. A LOT of them. My honest guess (take it or leave it) was that 1/3rd of all D1 players were getting some sort of extra benefits. Now, obviously some were getting more than others, but a lot were getting them. It's been that way for decades. Not all the programs did it, but a lot of the major ones and highly successful ones did.

Now that ANY program can do it, it's kind of like when prohibition went away. Now that it's legit, the illegal operations aren't quite as powerful or profitable. And a lot of programs that wouldn't or couldn't do it before are doing it now, and they're getting better players. A lot of the agents are still around and they're still powerful, but they're not quite as essential as they used to be. When Weber State can get a player like Dillon Jones, and UNC Asheville can get a player like Drew Pember, and while a guy Aaron Estrada did transfer out of Hofstra (presumably for more NIL money) he did at least go there initially. Howard has a guy that's a pro prospect (who's name I can't remember), but....HOWARD!!!! Programs don't have to decide to go through those old backchannels anymore, nor do they need access to them if they were to decide to do it like they used to.

That's not Earth shattering. That's not complicated. That's just simple. And it kind of was rather predictable. In fact I think many on this site have talked about it before when all this was starting to come down.

sorry, rejected.

[MHettel]

I don't think it's really that. SDSU and FAU just had big runs paired with a fair amount of luck. Particularly FAU getting to play FDU instead of Purdue.

I don't think those two paid their way into anything.

Look at SDSUs roster from last year. They had multiple 5th year players and 4 or 5 transfers that played big roles. They had a window to put that roster together, and NIL & the transfer portal enabled it. AGAIN, they just capitalized on this while others sat around. Kind of like any new scheme in the NFL. Some team starts doing it, it's successful, then everyone else starts doing it.

[sirthought]

Parity has been rising far before NIL and transfer portals have had an impact. We've seen smaller conferences have really good teams, it's just that people could never watch them before all that easily. Now, with streaming and wider broadcast distribution, players can see themselves having an impact somewhere they can get minutes and experience. It's a chess game for respect and competitiveness, as always. But there are programs gaining a wider window of opportunity because players see that opportunity.

And Xavier was likely a blueprint for a lot of those programs. Schools that don't invest in their facilities and staff are still going to struggle.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Because in reality there isn't MORE parity. It's exactly the same as it's always been. A couple of teams buy their way into relevance last year and all of sudden people are saying that we now have an equal playing field.

FAU and SD State bought their way into relevance? Nice try.

Also FAU had all homegrown players last year unlike Hett's assertion otherwise about the teams adapting quickly. They also lost NONE of those guys in the portal this past offseason despite many offers I am sure and how Hett would have you believe it would have gone.

[MHettel]

FAU and SD State bought their way into relevance? Nice try.

Also FAU had all homegrown players last year unlike Hett's assertion otherwise about the teams adapting quickly. They also lost NONE of those guys in the portal this past offseason despite many offers I am sure and how Hett would have you believe it would have gone.

I didnt mention FAU at all. But Miami, SDSU, Texas, and KState ALL were loaded with transfers. Transfers alone dont mean to much....but if they were enabled using NIL money then it suggests that these teams saw the opportunity and jumped on it before others.

I did a whole write up last year of all the small conference POYs, ROYs, DPOYs and first team players that all transferred out and up, and presumably got paid. that is NOT parity. How many years can a conference endure that poaching?

I've ALWAYS said we need to give it a little time to see the full impact of these changes. A few years at least. Its actually happening FASTER than I expected.

[Xville]

When teams like Dayton, south Florida and the mountain west are so strong, I find it weird when people say there isn’t parity and that schools are just buying players.

Honestly, the results so far dont match the narrative that some of you are trying to spin

[XUBison]

When teams like Dayton, south Florida and the mountain west are so strong, I find it weird when people say there isn’t parity and that schools are just buying players.

Honestly, the results so far dont match the narrative that some of you are trying to spin

Wait, I thought everyone’s been paying players, and that’s the way it’s always been. No?

[xubrew]

Does everyone pretty much agree that a lot of smaller programs from smaller leagues are somehow getting better players than they ever have before?? Regardless of how they're doing it or what the reasons are, can people pretty much agree on that??

Shahada Wells was at TCU last year and went to McNeese this year, and the fact that Will Wade is coaching at McNeese is a sure fire sign that NIL may have had SOMETHING to do with it

Mikael Brown-Jones is one of the top offensive players in the nation, yet he transferred to UNC Greensboro when he could have gone pretty much anywhere

Achor Achor is at Samford, and granted he had a previous relationship with the current coach, but still. He's a guy that would start for most teams in the top 25, and yet he's currently at Samford

Dillon Jones is at Weber State

Noah Reynolds is at Green Bay for some reason

Tyon Grant-Foster, who while he didn't start at Kansas was highly recruited and likely would have had he stayed, is now at Grand Canyon

I kind of want to leave the Ivy out of it because I know it's a different animal, but there are at least three or four guys that would pretty much start for the vast majority of P5 programs right now

And then you've got someone like Tristan Enaurna, who I think was averaging over 30 minutes a game at Iowa State, who up and transfers to CLEVELAND STATE!!! Who really isn't even all that good by small conference standards!!!

And on, and on, and on, and on!! These are P5 caliber players. These are guys that would start for most of the teams in the top 25 right now.

So, yes!! There is more parity. And, maybe Cleveland State all these other just figured out the new paradigm because they have all this brain power that none of the other programs have, or maybe there is just something different now. Coaches and programs can get access to players that they couldn't get access to before, and NIL sort of opened some of those doors.

I mean, there have always been a few examples a year of high caliber players landing at smaller programs, but it was just that. A COUPLE of examples. It wasn't DOZENS.

[webxu]

Simon Charles on X is reporting that Miller to OSU is a done deal. He was accurate on Cooley to G-town and English to Providence. i didnt look any more into him other than that, but definitely dont like seeing that.

[xubrew]

Simon Charles on X is reporting that Miller to OSU is a done deal. He was accurate on Cooley to G-town and English to Providence. i didnt look any more into him other than that, but definitely dont like seeing that.

Look a little further into him. He's actually kind of funny sometimes. Simon Charles is a parody account. He claims to have a double PHD in both journalism and female anatomy.

He's also reporting that Travis Kelce is going to announce his retirement tomorrow because he cannot play football and manage the batshit crazy Swifties.

[webxu]

Simon Charles is a parody account. He claims to have a double PHD in both journalism and female anatomy.

He's also reporting that Travis Kelce is going to announce his retirement tomorrow because he cannot play football and manage the batshit crazy Swifties.

I assumed it was that.. but the fact he got English and Cooley right was at least thought provoking. Gotta hand him props for the double PHD.. :dizzy:

[xubrew]

I assumed it was that.. but the fact he got English and Cooley right was at least thought provoking. Gotta hand him props for the double PHD.. :dizzy:

This actually fooled quite a few people that it probably shouldn’t have. Someone else I know showed it to me without realizing it was a farce. If he ever got anything right, it was probably on accident, which in a way is even funnier.

[Xville]

Does everyone pretty much agree that a lot of smaller programs from smaller leagues are somehow getting better players than they ever have before?? Regardless of how they're doing it or what the reasons are, can people pretty much agree on that??

Shahada Wells was at TCU last year and went to McNeese this year, and the fact that Will Wade is coaching at McNeese is a sure fire sign that NIL may have had SOMETHING to do with it

Mikael Brown-Jones is one of the top offensive players in the nation, yet he transferred to UNC Greensboro when he could have gone pretty much anywhere

Achor Achor is at Samford, and granted he had a previous relationship with the current coach, but still. He's a guy that would start for most teams in the top 25, and yet he's currently at Samford

Dillon Jones is at Weber State

Noah Reynolds is at Green Bay for some reason

Tyon Grant-Foster, who while he didn't start at Kansas was highly recruited and likely would have had he stayed, is now at Grand Canyon

I kind of want to leave the Ivy out of it because I know it's a different animal, but there are at least three or four guys that would pretty much start for the vast majority of P5 programs right now

And then you've got someone like Tristan Enaurna, who I think was averaging over 30 minutes a game at Iowa State, who up and transfers to CLEVELAND STATE!!! Who really isn't even all that good by small conference standards!!!

And on, and on, and on, and on!! These are P5 caliber players. These are guys that would start for most of the teams in the top 25 right now.

So, yes!! There is more parity. And, maybe Cleveland State all these other just figured out the new paradigm because they have all this brain power that none of the other programs have, or maybe there is just something different now. Coaches and programs can get access to players that they couldn't get access to before, and NIL sort of opened some of those doors.

I mean, there have always been a few examples a year of high caliber players landing at smaller programs, but it was just that. A COUPLE of examples. It wasn't DOZENS.

I'm with you. I think the ones saying there isn't parity are sticking their heads in the sand. IMO it is due to a number of factors...the portal, nil etc. Honestly, I think parity was beginning to happen a few years even before NIL was instituted. NIL and the portal just advanced it more.

[Final4]

FAU and SD State bought their way into relevance? Nice try.

Also FAU had all homegrown players last year unlike Hett's assertion otherwise about the teams adapting quickly. They also lost NONE of those guys in the portal this past offseason despite many offers I am sure and how Hett would have you believe it would have gone.

Maybe the concept was a bit advanced for you. Stay in the kiddie pool.

[paulxu]

When NIL became OK to funnel dollars to players, did they also do away with the ban on a player having an agent while in college?

[MHettel]

Does everyone pretty much agree that a lot of smaller programs from smaller leagues are somehow getting better players than they ever have before?? Regardless of how they're doing it or what the reasons are, can people pretty much agree on that??

Shahada Wells was at TCU last year and went to McNeese this year, and the fact that Will Wade is coaching at McNeese is a sure fire sign that NIL may have had SOMETHING to do with it

Mikael Brown-Jones is one of the top offensive players in the nation, yet he transferred to UNC Greensboro when he could have gone pretty much anywhere

Achor Achor is at Samford, and granted he had a previous relationship with the current coach, but still. He's a guy that would start for most teams in the top 25, and yet he's currently at Samford

Dillon Jones is at Weber State

Noah Reynolds is at Green Bay for some reason

Tyon Grant-Foster, who while he didn't start at Kansas was highly recruited and likely would have had he stayed, is now at Grand Canyon

I kind of want to leave the Ivy out of it because I know it's a different animal, but there are at least three or four guys that would pretty much start for the vast majority of P5 programs right now

And then you've got someone like Tristan Enaurna, who I think was averaging over 30 minutes a game at Iowa State, who up and transfers to CLEVELAND STATE!!! Who really isn't even all that good by small conference standards!!!

And on, and on, and on, and on!! These are P5 caliber players. These are guys that would start for most of the teams in the top 25 right now.

So, yes!! There is more parity. And, maybe Cleveland State all these other just figured out the new paradigm because they have all this brain power that none of the other programs have, or maybe there is just something different now. Coaches and programs can get access to players that they couldn't get access to before, and NIL sort of opened some of those doors.

I mean, there have always been a few examples a year of high caliber players landing at smaller programs, but it was just that. A COUPLE of examples. It wasn't DOZENS.

I dont follow closely enough for any of these names to ring a bell. But good players at small schools is not some new phenomenon. Once upon a time Xavier had David West and St. Joes had Jameer Nelson. Kyle Korver at Creighton. Lillard at Weber, Camby at Umass. Ja at Murray State. There are good players that choose these schools sometimes. And there are guys that are left having to choose from these schools and then it turns out they were actually studs. There is nothing new about this.

What is new is that a sophomore kid that makes first team all conference in a small conference just decides he's moving up to the Big 6. Thats just not sustainable for the small conferences.

I've long stood by the idea that an incoming freshman should actually come in at a level where they know they will play well and then just leave for NIL money after their freshman year. I doubt there is much NIL money for kids that havent proven it. Worst case scenario would be to be highly touted and not get any PT as a freshman.

I can envision the schools with less NIL money relying more on incoming freshmen, and then the schools with alot of NIL money relying more on transfers from those low money NIL schools. I see the big money NIL schools getting "older" while the no money schools get "younger." I also personally think you might see a slighly deeper rotation of players as coaches make a more obvious attempt to keep kids happy since they can just leave with no sitting out.

[xubrew]

I dont follow closely enough for any of these names to ring a bell. But good players at small schools is not some new phenomenon. Once upon a time Xavier had David West and St. Joes had Jameer Nelson. Kyle Korver at Creighton. Lillard at Weber, Camby at Umass. Ja at Murray State. There are good players that choose these schools sometimes. And there are guys that are left having to choose from these schools and then it turns out they were actually studs. There is nothing new about this.

What is new is that a sophomore kid that makes first team all conference in a small conference just decides he's moving up to the Big 6. Thats just not sustainable for the small conferences.

I've long stood by the idea that an incoming freshman should actually come in at a level where they know they will play well and then just leave for NIL money after their freshman year. I doubt there is much NIL money for kids that havent proven it. Worst case scenario would be to be highly touted and not get any PT as a freshman.

I can envision the schools with less NIL money relying more on incoming freshmen, and then the schools with alot of NIL money relying more on transfers from those low money NIL schools. I see the big money NIL schools getting "older" while the no money schools get "younger." I also personally think you might see a slighly deeper rotation of players as coaches make a more obvious attempt to keep kids happy since they can just leave with no sitting out.

Yes, there is.

The big difference between the examples I gave and the ones you gave is that most of the guys you listed sort of fell through the cracks. None of mine were guys that were not highly recruited and then ended up exceeding expectations. They were all highly recruited, all had big offers, and they all either chose to go to their current schools anyway, or did go to a big program and decided to transfer to their currents schools despite having been key players at big programs. Do you have very many examples of that happening in the years prior to the NIL??

And UMass and Saint Joe's?? Come on!! Neither of those programs were really blue bloods when they landed those players, but neither of them were exactly Horizon League or Big Sky caliber programs either. Speaking of that UMass team...


sorry, rejected.

Interesting. One of your examples of a past lower level program landing a high caliber player was Marcus Camby at UMass. I guess you're not familiar with that whole story, but it's well documented if you want to look it up!

[MHettel]

Yes, there is.

The big difference between the examples I gave and the ones you gave is that most of the guys you listed sort of fell through the cracks. None of mine were guys that were not highly recruited and then ended up exceeding expectations. They were all highly recruited, all had big offers, and they all either chose to go to their current schools anyway, or did go to a big program and decided to transfer to their currents schools despite having been key players at big programs. Do you have very many examples of that happening in the years prior to the NIL??

And UMass and Saint Joe's?? Come on!! Neither of those programs were really blue bloods when they landed those players, but neither of them were exactly Horizon League or Big Sky caliber programs either. Speaking of that UMass team...



Interesting. One of your examples of a past lower level program landing a high caliber player was Marcus Camby at UMass. I guess you're not familiar with that whole story, but it's well documented if you want to look it up!

you going back 25 years to make your point? You might want to rethink your claim that 1/3rd of players have been getting "impermissable benefits"

I suppose your claim of impermissable benefits could technically be a free gatorade after practice. Or maybe a ride to the airport. or heck, even the notorious hundred-dollar-handshake.....

...but nothing was occuring even remotely to the extent or magnitude of what kind of cash is being tossed around in the name of NIL. Some clown from Miami paid teh football walkons 5k each.

[xubrew]

you going back 25 years to make your point? You might want to rethink your claim that 1/3rd of players have been getting "impermissable benefits"

I suppose your claim of impermissable benefits could technically be a free gatorade after practice. Or maybe a ride to the airport. or heck, even the notorious hundred-dollar-handshake.....

...but nothing was occuring even remotely to the extent or magnitude of what kind of cash is being tossed around in the name of NIL. Some clown from Miami paid teh football walkons 5k each.

I was simply following up on the example you gave. Why did YOU go back that far when you were trying to make your point?? I just thought it was funny that not only did you go back 25 years when listing examples of big time players at smaller programs, but you gave an example of one of the most well known cases of impermissible benefits that's ever existed.

And, I've thougth about it. 1/3rd of D1 players seems about right to me. I'd say the percentage at just power conference programs was probably a lot higher. Although, to clarify, I don't think most of them were receiving benefits all throughout college. But, I guess I can think about it some more.

[MHettel]

I was simply following up on the example you gave. Why did YOU go back that far when you were trying to make your point?? I just thought it was funny that not only did you go back 25 years when listing examples of big time players at smaller programs, but you gave an example of one of the most well known cases of impermissible benefits that's ever existed.

And, I've thougth about it. 1/3rd of D1 players seems about right to me. I'd say the percentage at just power conference programs was probably a lot higher. Although, to clarify, I don't think most of them were receiving benefits all throughout college. But, I guess I can think about it some more.

So 5000 active basketball players in any given season. And 1/3 of them makes about 1,667.

And they all just keep their mouth shut. Ok.

[xubrew]

So 5000 active basketball players in any given season. And 1/3 of them makes about 1,667.

And they all just keep their mouth shut. Ok.

Many didn't keep their mouths shut. I mean the FBI investigation wouldn't have become what it did had it not been for so many people not keeping their mouths shut. Also, believe it or not (and you probably don't), many people other than myself would actually estimate that before the infamous FBI raid took place that it was actually more than 1/3rd. I don't agree, but there's no way to really tell for sure. I don't think all of the players were receiving benefits for the whole time they were in college, and I don't think that what everyone was getting was on par with what a lot of high end NIL deals are paying now...but I do believe that a few of them probably were.

So here is how you get to that number. According to the NCAA's own data, which I believe, roughly 53% of all D1 players sign a contract to play professionally somewhere in the world. The percentage of players from a P5 conference that sign a contract to play somewhere in the world is just over 80%. And when the season ends, and you see that some guy that was key role player has hired an agent from a firm that's notorious for tampering, and within days has a fully negotiated contract and apparel deal, people with common sense would reasonably look at that and think "My God! They're not even trying to hide it!"

Remember Nevin Shapiro, and all the money gifts he was claiming to give to Miami's football and basketball players?? What's kind of funny about that is that Miami's basketball teams were kind of good while that was going on, but they weren't THAT good! I mean...can you imagine how much he would have had to pay if he wanted them to be even better??

And, this was all pre-NIL, which is kind of my point. Now that NIL is here, this whole orbit of agents, to apparel companies, to assistant coaches and AAU coaches, is no longer an orbit programs have to be in or choose to be in to get high caliber players. NIL sort of quashed a lot of that. I think that's a BIG reason as to why there is more parity now. It's not the only reason, but it is certainly one of the big reasons.

[xubrew]

Anyway, I still don't think Ohio State will be targeting Sean Miller.

BIG GAME TONIGHT AGAINST PROVIDENCE!!!

[XUBison]

So 5000 active basketball players in any given season. And 1/3 of them makes about 1,667.

And they all just keep their mouth shut. Ok.

Apparently, as did all the coaches, players, trainers, administrators, staff, students, faculty, and media that came in/out of the universities/programs. Oh, not to mention the IRS, which, for the first time never, opted not to pursue systematic, pervasive, and decades-long tax fraud. Meanwhile, a recent landmark FBi investigation uncovered a complex money-laundering scheme that landed people in prison, with the shocking revelation that a few thousand buks had been funneled to a handful of players.

[XUBison]

Does everyone pretty much agree that a lot of smaller programs from smaller leagues are somehow getting better players than they ever have before?? Regardless of how they're doing it or what the reasons are, can people pretty much agree on that??…

…So, yes!! There is more parity. And, maybe Cleveland State all these other just figured out the new paradigm because they have all this brain power that none of the other programs have, or maybe there is just something different now. Coaches and programs can get access to players that they couldn't get access to before, and NIL sort of opened some of those doors…


The Summit League would like to have a word with you. The portal and NIL have driven most of its quality out, with very little quality coming back in return. This is a low-major example, but not all the programs are trash. The Dakota schools, Oral Robert’s, and even St. Thomas are not poor small schools with non-existent fan bases. Except for St. Thomas, whose fans are still just excited to be playing D-1, I think their collective fan bases could be described as somewhere between despondent and apathetic at what’s happened to their programs.

As for parity, time will tell if this becomes more or less of a reality. I’ve always been a big fan of college football and bball, but I’ve always thought there was much greater parity in bball, at least in my lifetime— Seton Hall in a national championship game, an E-8 run by Loyola’ Marymount (without its best player), deep runs by Bucknell, VCU, George Mason, Butler, St. Peter’s, etc. You provided several examples of high-level talent who’ve opted to play at lower levels. That’s fine, but I’d wager there is far more talent that has bailed onn the lower levels. Players like Baylor Scheierman and Grant Nelson leave, but the portal doesn’t bring those schools anything close in return, and a handful of talented players spread across a few hundred schools doesn’t prove parity.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Maybe the concept was a bit advanced for you. Stay in the kiddie pool.

Ha the perfect response from someone just making shit up to their the narrative they want.

[xubrew]

The Summit League would like to have a word with you. The portal and NIL have driven most of its quality out, with very little quality coming back in return. This is a low-major example, but not all the programs are trash. The Dakota schools, Oral Robert’s, and even St. Thomas are not poor small schools with non-existent fan bases. Except for St. Thomas, whose fans are still just excited to be playing D-1, I think their collective fan bases could be described as somewhere between despondent and apathetic at what’s happened to their programs.

As for parity, time will tell if this becomes more or less of a reality. I’ve always been a big fan of college football and bball, but I’ve always thought there was much greater parity in bball, at least in my lifetime— Seton Hall in a national championship game, an E-8 run by Loyola’ Marymount (without its best player), deep runs by Bucknell, VCU, George Mason, Butler, St. Peter’s, etc. You provided several examples of high-level talent who’ve opted to play at lower levels. That’s fine, but I’d wager there is far more talent that has bailed onn the lower levels. Players like Baylor Scheierman and Grant Nelson leave, but the portal doesn’t bring those schools anything close in return, and a handful of talented players spread across a few hundred schools doesn’t prove parity.

I love the Summit League! I think I'm one of about fifty people that paid for their app after they left ESPN, which I think was a colossal mistake on the part of the league, but on to your point...

I'll give you Oral Roberts, but I've always thought of that being such a weird place anyway that I'm amazed that anyone would want to stay there. But as far as everyone else, didn't most of the teams (PARTICULARLY South Dakota State who may be one of the bigger disappointments in the country this year) return the bulk of their starters and players who were in their rotations, and it's just been an unexpectedly crappy year?? What key players left outside of ORU??

I wouldn't call the Summit Leauge "low major." I guess it is this year, but most years it's actually pretty damn good.

[MHettel]

Apparently, as did all the coaches, players, trainers, administrators, staff, students, faculty, and media that came in/out of the universities/programs. Oh, not to mention the IRS, which, for the first time never, opted not to pursue systematic, pervasive, and decades-long tax fraud. Meanwhile, a recent landmark FBi investigation uncovered a complex money-laundering scheme that landed people in prison, with the shocking revelation that a few thousand buks had been funneled to a handful of players.

Oh shit! The piledriver!

[xubrew]

Apparently, as did all the coaches, players, trainers, administrators, staff, students, faculty, and media that came in/out of the universities/programs. Oh, not to mention the IRS, which, for the first time never, opted not to pursue systematic, pervasive, and decades-long tax fraud. Meanwhile, a recent landmark FBi investigation uncovered a complex money-laundering scheme that landed people in prison, with the shocking revelation that a few thousand buks had been funneled to a handful of players.

The students and faculty??? Yeah, I guess you're right. As involved as the faculty were in all this I can't believe the faculty weren't blabbing about this all over the place to anyone that would listen.

Anyway, much of it wasn't illegal even though it was against NCAA rules. In fact one of the biggest reasons NIL now exists is because the courts are ruling that it's illegal to NOT allow them to receive such gifts and payments. The IRS?? if it's a gift from an agent, then whoever is donating it would pay the gift tax, so I don't see why the IRS would consider it to be tax fraud. And if someone didn't even know any players, coaches, or agents at that time, then chances are they never would have heard any of them say anything about it because...well...how could they??

[GoMuskies]

I don't believe a payment from an agent to a player would meet the IRS's definition of a gift.

[xubrew]

I don't believe a payment from an agent to a player would meet the IRS's definition of a gift.

Maybe not. But a lot of the agents and 'advisors' who do such things also do their taxes for them, or at least arrange to have them done. Their whole end goal is to get control (or at least influence) over their finances anyway.

Anyway....Sean and Ohio State. I don't see it.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Simon Charles on X just tweeted or X’ed or whatever that Miller to OSU is a done deal.

Edit looks like a parody account, I hope it is just trolling.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Simon Charles on X just tweeted or X’ed or whatever that Miller to OSU is a done deal.

Edit looks like a parody account, I hope it is just trolling.

His PhD in female anatomy certainly lends credence to his basketball insights.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think it's serious until Markus Walters reports it.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't think it's serious until Markus Walters reports it.

The only true insider we can trust.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't think it's serious until Markus Walters reports it.

The only true insider we can trust.

[XUBison]

The students and faculty??? Yeah, I guess you're right. As involved as the faculty were in all this I can't believe the faculty weren't blabbing about this all over the place to anyone that would listen…

FWIW… Some buddies of mine and I had to talk a group of girls out of reporting X players for driving Skip’s Rangerover around campus (a common observance). They had a whole plot to wait and snap photos of them driving into O’Connor, then they were going to report them to the NCAA. They were bonkers, yes, but they were bound and determined to get ‘em!

I also have a good friend whose dad was a dept head at X. He (the dad) said the faculty always knew what was up with the players— academics, personal problems, financial concerns, discipline issues, etc.; some of that was watercooler gossip, but some was first-hand knowledge. Maybe they didn’t know if cash was being exchanged under the table, but they definitely had their fingers on the pulse. He also would say snitching by faculty was responsible for the bulk of the athletic department’s numerous, albeit mostly minor self-reported violations,. He was/is a big supporter of the bball program, but he also said some faculty are put off by athletics in general, and especially with what they perceive as athlete entitlement. He is since retired, which is a bummer for me, because he always had the inside scoop. Again, FWIW.

[Xville]

I’ll just say this. I went to x during the west-charmers-sato years and stuff went on that wasn’t legal by ncaa standards.

I also think it’s a bit naive to believe that people like book Richardson just started cheating once he got to Arizona.

Lastly, I think things work differently at x than most big time programs in terms of faculty w sister rose etc. really doubt there is that kind of “oversight” at bigger schools

[MHettel]

But to compare driving the coaches range rover around campus to what is going on with the NIL is dumb.

If you want to technically be right by calling that "impermissible benefits", then so be it. But its a very weak argument once any questions get asked.

[XUBison]

I love the Summit League! I think I'm one of about fifty people that paid for their app after they left ESPN, which I think was a colossal mistake on the part of the league, but on to your point...

I'll give you Oral Roberts, but I've always thought of that being such a weird place anyway that I'm amazed that anyone would want to stay there. But as far as everyone else, didn't most of the teams (PARTICULARLY South Dakota State who may be one of the bigger disappointments in the country this year) return the bulk of their starters and players who were in their rotations, and it's just been an unexpectedly crappy year?? What key players left outside of ORU??

I wouldn't call the Summit Leauge "low major." I guess it is this year, but most years it's actually pretty damn good.

You are right about SDSU. Their roster remained in tact from last year, although I’m sure they wish they still had Scheierman. Otherwise, NDSU lost Nelson to Alabama; ORU lost Abmas to Texas; St. Thomas lost Rohde to UVA; SDSU lost Kamateros to Vandy… but hey, St. Thomas got back the MIAC POY, as in the D-3 Minnesota Intercoolegiate Athletic Conference. Look, it’s not like the fans don’t get it, they do. NDSU fans were happy , or even excited for Grant Nelson when he left for Alabama. They don’t blame the kids, but that doesn’t mean fan enthusiasm isn’t waning.

I grew up going to NDSU games in the 80s and 90s when they sucked in D-2. They always still had at least 2K-3K fans at every game. Their games against UND were always sold out, 6K+, both home and away, and the games were always picked up by the local tv affiliates back when that was a big deal. They didn’t play each other during the 2000s, because UND lagged behind in their transition to D-1. I went to a couple games when they finally renewed the rivalry in the early 2010s, one at NDSU and one at UND, and both games were moved to larger facilities with more than 12K fans. They play each other tomorrow at NDSU, who has been marketing the game hard as “The Drive for Five”, as in they are pushing for 5K fans; in their 6K arena. As of a couple days ago, they’d only sold about 2K tickets.

You are also right about ORU… very weird place, but I digress.

Back on topic I also don’t see Sean leaving for OSU. I’m not sure how close he and Sean are anymore, but I wonder if that dynamic wouldn’t make it less appealing as an option for Sean. Hey, I suppose we could just go steal Thad away from Butler again. That would be kind of hilarious.

[XUBison]

But to compare driving the coaches range rover around campus to what is going on with the NIL is dumb.

If you want to technically be right by calling that "impermissible benefits", then so be it. But its a very weak argument once any questions get asked.

I wasn’t making that dumb comparison at all. I was merely pointing out that even students and faculty pay attention with the potential to blow the whistle on even the most benign infractions, which was in response to the narrative that paying players has always been pervasive.

[Xavier]

I’ll just say this. I went to x during the west-charmers-sato years and stuff went on that wasn’t legal by ncaa standards.

I also think it’s a bit naive to believe that people like book Richardson just started cheating once he got to Arizona.

Lastly, I think things work differently at x than most big time programs in terms of faculty w sister rose etc. really doubt there is that kind of “oversight” at bigger schools

Extremely naive.

[OTRMUSKIE]

https://youtu.be/qisIcqdzVy4?si=ZC7WcwCtDD2vybAU

[Blue Blooded-05]

https://youtu.be/qisIcqdzVy4?si=ZC7WcwCtDD2vybAU

“I just think, like, the fit makes sense to me. Like. Like. Like, I think that Sean Miller was always taking the Eggzavier job just to kinda get back in, like, using it as a stepping stone.”

Wow, that is some top notch commentary.

Don’t give these clowns any extra views.

[xubrew]

I’ll just say this. I went to x during the west-charmers-sato years and stuff went on that wasn’t legal by ncaa standards.

I also think it’s a bit naive to believe that people like book Richardson just started cheating once he got to Arizona.

Lastly, I think things work differently at x than most big time programs in terms of faculty w sister rose etc. really doubt there is that kind of “oversight” at bigger schools


Extremely naive. Tu and book had/still have a good relationshi.

This is starting to go in a direction that it would probably be best if it didn't. I didn't want it to get to a point to where specific incidents and people were being named, and I sure as hell didn't want it to get to where those being named had ties to Xavier. This whole thread was initially about something else entirely.

I'll keep my final thought general, and then I'll leave it at that. It's not surprising that so many people don't believe this was a rampant problem across college sports, and that their reason for not believing it is because they themselves never saw it. But, having said that, to me it sounds like a teach or a professor saying something like "None of my students have ever cheated!" and basing that belief on the fact that they've never caught anyone doing it themselves and that no one has ever told on someone for cheating. That's unbelievably naive. But, we see examples of stuff like this all the time.

The College Admissions Scandal had been going on for decades, and athletics was actually tied in with it, and yet no one ever saw it even though it was happening right in front of them and everyone was surprised when it got reported.

Looking back at it now, the rampant steroid use in baseball could not have been more obvious, but yet at the time most people either didn't know it was happening, or chose not to believe it when it was finally initially reported.

If people feel that in the days prior to NIL college basketball coaches, and agents, and AAU coaches, were mostly honest people that would never cheat and that there is no way this could have possibly been a rampant problem, and/or that the NCAA's Enforcement Staff would have been able to police all of it, then...well...I disagree. I'll leave it at that. Perhaps we all should just leave it at that. We just aren't going to land in a spot where we agree anyway.

And I also think that one of the good things that came out of NIL was that it threw a really big wrench into this, and now suddenly you have a lot of programs who are able to recruit and land higher caliber players than they could before, and that's one of the big reasons we now see more parity. Hell, WWW is with the Knicks now!! That alone should create more parity (I'm mostly kidding. MOSTLY!!). But, again, I'll leave it at that.

[Xville]

So anyways back to miller, in my mind he doesn’t need to stay forever, just get us back to where we were when he and Mack were here and then if he wants to leave, fine. Don’t leave the program like this.

[webxu]

So anyways back to miller, in my mind he doesn’t need to stay forever, just get us back to where we were when he and Mack were here and then if he wants to leave, fine. Don’t leave the program like this.

I would say if Miller leaves after 2 years.. he is the worst person in the world.. and i dont believe he is. If its simply about $, he went that route already. X is a better bball program than OSU. That wasn't the case with Zona as that is arguably a top 5 job, certainly top 10 job. That just isnt the case with OSU.

[webxu]

I’ll just say this. I went to x during the west-charmers-sato years and stuff went on that wasn’t legal by ncaa standards.

I also think it’s a bit naive to believe that people like book Richardson just started cheating once he got to Arizona.

Lastly, I think things work differently at x than most big time programs in terms of faculty w sister rose etc. really doubt there is that kind of “oversight” at bigger schools

Completly agree.. saw those same Lexus's :)

[OTRMUSKIE]

Hitler, Trump, Miller in no particular order. I don’t think Miller wants to be part of that fraternity.

[MHettel]

I wasn’t making that dumb comparison at all. I was merely pointing out that even students and faculty pay attention with the potential to blow the whistle on even the most benign infractions, which was in response to the narrative that paying players has always been pervasive.

I didn’t direct my comment at you

[MHettel]

Stepping back to see if I can get a different perspective on this Miller & OSU situation.

Going back to the Gillen days, there were always "better jobs" out there that we would risk losing our coach to. Gillen left to Providence which was in the Big East and was certainly a better job.

Prosser came in and we moved (up) to the A10 and kept winning to raise the profile of the program. But Wake came calling and being from the ACC it was also a "better job."

Matta comes in and we reach an elite 8. XU at this point is a pretty good job! But OSU and the Big 10 unfortunately was still bigger.

I always though Miller would stick around for a long time, because frankly there just wasn't that big of a pool of clearly better jobs out there. Zona was maybe one of 10 joibs that I felt were obviously better than XU, and sure enough that came open.

Mack kept it rolling and we made it to the Big East. Still it seemed that there were only a handful of jobs out there (around 10) that I could reasonably consider so much better that it would lure him away. UofL was low on my list, but yeah hard to pass that up.

Steel Sucked, and we will just leave that there.

So now we are back to the Miller & OSU situation, and I suddenly see 2 clear facts. OSU is NOT a better job than Xavier. Neither is one of the "Elite" jobs in the country, but I view both as being in that next tier with around 20 other schools. So this would be a lateral move....which leads me to the second fact. If he were to take the job, it wouldn't be that it was a better job. It would be becasue he doesnt want to be at X, and that is a HUGE red flag.

Even if he doesnt take the job, or its not offered to him, if he were to engage in the discussion then I'm thinking something is seriously wrong at the school or in the athletic department if he looking elsewhere after 2 years. I originally thought he may just retire from X, because he already tried the "blue blood" route and it didnt end well for him. Maybe it was out of his system and of course I guess the family loves Cincy. But maybe he does want another shot at one of those top jobs. Well, OSU aint one of em. If Kansas or UNC opened up....I get it. But OSU is a headscratcher to me and suggests that if we were to take the job it would be more a case of "leaving XU" as opposed to "going to OSU."

Concerning. And i hope if tehre is anything that is an issue, that it gets resolved quickly. I want to keep him becasue hes a top coach, but equally improtant to me is to stop this merry go round of coaches that ALWAYS results in a couple down years right after....

[bjf123]

Agreed. If Sean is “leaving” X, that tells me there are serious issues between him and the AD, and maybe the school in general. If he does leave, I’ll be very concerned about the future direction of the program.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Xavier]

Agree with you guys, if he left (especially for OSU) I’d say there’s major issue within athletic department. There’s schools, even after 2 years, that if they came I wouldn’t blame him for leaving. If so I’d be thrilled with Mack coming back.

[A Fan]

Stepping back to see if I can get a different perspective on this Miller & OSU situation.

Going back to the Gillen days, there were always "better jobs" out there that we would risk losing our coach to. Gillen left to Providence which was in the Big East and was certainly a better job.

Prosser came in and we moved (up) to the A10 and kept winning to raise the profile of the program. But Wake came calling and being from the ACC it was also a "better job."

Matta comes in and we reach an elite 8. XU at this point is a pretty good job! But OSU and the Big 10 unfortunately was still bigger.

I always though Miller would stick around for a long time, because frankly there just wasn't that big of a pool of clearly better jobs out there. Zona was maybe one of 10 joibs that I felt were obviously better than XU, and sure enough that came open.

Mack kept it rolling and we made it to the Big East. Still it seemed that there were only a handful of jobs out there (around 10) that I could reasonably consider so much better that it would lure him away. UofL was low on my list, but yeah hard to pass that up.

Steel Sucked, and we will just leave that there.

So now we are back to the Miller & OSU situation, and I suddenly see 2 clear facts. OSU is NOT a better job than Xavier. Neither is one of the "Elite" jobs in the country, but I view both as being in that next tier with around 20 other schools. So this would be a lateral move....which leads me to the second fact. If he were to take the job, it wouldn't be that it was a better job. It would be becasue he doesnt want to be at X, and that is a HUGE red flag.

Even if he doesnt take the job, or its not offered to him, if he were to engage in the discussion then I'm thinking something is seriously wrong at the school or in the athletic department if he looking elsewhere after 2 years. I originally thought he may just retire from X, because he already tried the "blue blood" route and it didnt end well for him. Maybe it was out of his system and of course I guess the family loves Cincy. But maybe he does want another shot at one of those top jobs. Well, OSU aint one of em. If Kansas or UNC opened up....I get it. But OSU is a headscratcher to me and suggests that if we were to take the job it would be more a case of "leaving XU" as opposed to "going to OSU."

Concerning. And i hope if tehre is anything that is an issue, that it gets resolved quickly. I want to keep him becasue hes a top coach, but equally improtant to me is to stop this merry go round of coaches that ALWAYS results in a couple down years right after....
I also thought when Miller retuned to Xavier he would retire from Xavier. And I can see why many would think going to OSU is a lateral move. But you have to look at the future through the lens of players most likely being employees and the NIL. Coaches now have to construct an annual roster. The high schoolers they get and develop can go in the portal. The missing pieces they have to get every year they have to bid out of the portal. Tell me this. If OSU has a $5M to spend annually and Xavier has 2M , over a 5 year period at which school would Miller have the most success…forgetting he would make double the salary.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

I also thought when Miller retuned to Xavier he would retire from Xavier. And I can see why many would think going to OSU is a lateral move. But you have to look at the future through the lens of players most likely being employees and the NIL. Coaches now have to construct an annual roster. The high schoolers they get and develop can go in the portal. The missing pieces they have to get every year they have to bid out of the portal. Tell me this. If OSU has a $5M to spend annually and Xavier has 2M , over a 5 year period at which school would Miller have the most successÂ…forgetting he would make double the salary.

I seriously do not think salary is an issue here. Sean has made a bunch of dough in his career and, those of you who remember Hailstone's economics class will recall money has diminishing marginal utility. The more you have, the less benefit it provides. And that marginal utility curve flattens out at some point where more money brings no further satisfaction at all. I'm positive Sean is at that point. He is not moving on to make more money.

I get your point that the confluence of NIL and the portal in the last couple of years, may have changed the nature of the head coach's job to a degree that it changes the relative attractiveness of various coaching jobs. I suppose that could be something Miller recognizes and perhaps Xavier is at a disadvantage compared to larger institutions. But I'm not ready to concede that point. Basketball is critical to Xavier and I believe the administration is very aware of the value Miller brings to the university.

Hettel's reasoning is sensible. If Miller leaves it will be shocking and it will make a huge statement about the current and future condition of Xavier basketball. So powerful a statement that Xavier cannot and will not allow Miller to go.

I guess one final point to factor into thinking here is that when a coach moves on, he doesn't move alone. I very much doubt if Miller's wife wants to move again, just two years after moving here. That can be a very important factor.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I also thought when Miller retuned to Xavier he would retire from Xavier. And I can see why many would think going to OSU is a lateral move. But you have to look at the future through the lens of players most likely being employees and the NIL. Coaches now have to construct an annual roster. The high schoolers they get and develop can go in the portal. The missing pieces they have to get every year they have to bid out of the portal. Tell me this. If OSU has a $5M to spend annually and Xavier has 2M , over a 5 year period at which school would Miller have the most success…forgetting he would make double the salary.

From the reports I have seen (not factual bc I'm not sure anyone knows for sure) XU's NIL situation is better than OSU's. I would guess that is bc OSU football gets the biggest piece of the pie.

[Xville]

I don’t think there is a chance in hell of miller going to osu. He may leave at some point, but it’s not going to be there. Inferior basketball league, inferior to football, inferior city, inferior fan support, inferior arena. Could go on and on. He’s not going there

[XUBison]

Many thought X’s highbrow brand would preclude it from having the moxie to bring back a tarnished Sean, myself included. It’s hard to imagine the administration is doing anything but putting its full support behind Sean after making the bold (and correct) move. I’ve never had the impression that Sean‘s ego lends itself to unnecessary in-fighting, so If there are any in the admin who are not in full support, they need to be removed at once.

I don’t think conjecture can overlook the fact we missed on priorities in the portal, resulting in the disappointing outcome of a patchwork roster. I can see why Sean could be discouraged, and in this New World of uncertainty, this season would make it hard not to second-guess whether all the elements are in place to compete at the highest level. I am sure Sean came back with the unequivocal determination to get himself and X to our first Final Four, and I am also convinced getting to a Final Four matters more to him than anything at this point. I suspect he felt X had as much chance to do so with him at the helm as almost anywhere else. Does he still feel that way? The sauce will boil down to that.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Sean isn’t leaving for OSU, it’s stupid rumors to get clicks. We would be in the dance had we had free and hunt. Next year should be way better

[rationalbearcatfan]

I don’t think there is a chance in hell of miller going to osu. He may leave at some point, but it’s not going to be there. Inferior basketball league, inferior to football, inferior city, inferior fan support, inferior arena. Could go on and on. He’s not going there

No offense, but you're wrong on almost all of your points there. You are in the same boat UC football has been in many times, no matter how: they're already so rich, or were better than that team, or their family loves it here, why would they want to coach in that conference.... If he gets an offer, he's gone. If Miller is still coaching at Xavier next year, it's because OSU didn't want him

Quick edit: this is not an indictment on Xavier basketball, just that 1: money talks and 2 coaches are mostly egotistical people who are chasing wins, if they think osu's NIL grass is greener....

[Xville]

No offense, but you're wrong on almost all of your points there. You are in the same boat UC football has been in many times, no matter how: they're already so rich, or were better than that team, or their family loves it here, why would they want to coach in that conference.... If he gets an offer, he's gone. If Miller is still coaching at Xavier next year, it's because OSU didn't want him

Quick edit: this is not an indictment on Xavier basketball, just that 1: money talks and 2 coaches are mostly egotistical people who are chasing wins, if they think osu's NIL grass is greener....

No offense but Xavier basketball and uc football are not the same thing. And, you don’t know what you’re talking about. No offense.

Not saying miller will never leave, I’m not that naive. It just won’t be to Ohio state, and yes he will either be formally offered or their agents have already reached out to millers agents to see if he is interested.

[Final4]

I was thrilled when Miller came back. Seemed like the moon and stars had perfectly aligned and we got exactly what we needed at the exact right moment. However, with that said, I don’t wear Miller “blue glasses” and consider him omnipotent. He brought in eleven new players this year and promptly delivered the worst team we’ve seen in modern Xavier history. He’s got some work to do.

[Xville]

Gottlieb is a dweeb and I have been really put off by Goodman lately and both of them saying Ohio State is a "better job" is crap but I found this interesting:

https://watchstadium.com/videos/could-sean-miller-leave-xavier-mens-basketball/

Sean is also building a house next to his brother in law. He isn't going anywhere for the time being.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I was thrilled when Miller came back. Seemed like the moon and stars had perfectly aligned and we got exactly what we needed at the exact right moment. However, with that said, I don’t wear Miller “blue glasses” and consider him omnipotent. He brought in eleven new players this year and promptly delivered the worst team we’ve seen in modern Xavier history. He’s got some work to do.

It's going to take more than one bad season where we lost our 2 best big guys weeks before the season started to have me question Miller.

He's a great head coach, a proven winner at the highest levels of basketball. He took Xavier to the Sweet 16 in his first year back after 4 straight non tourney seasons.

Of course he has work to do, but he has nothing to prove to any of us if he's capable.

[bleedXblue]

It's going to take more than one bad season where we lost our 2 best big guys weeks before the season started to have me question Miller.

He's a great head coach, a proven winner at the highest levels of basketball. He took Xavier to the Sweet 16 in his first year back after 4 straight non tourney seasons.

Of course he has work to do, but he has nothing to prove to any of us if he's capable.

totally agree.......101% behind him and I hope he knows 99% of Xavier feels the same way

[drudy23]

All of this is Steele's fault.

He literally set this program on a trajectory it hasn't seen before, and not in a good way. It's really hard to completely dismantle the potential launching pad of a 1 seed, but here we are. We fell hard.

[xudash]

totally agree.......101% behind him and I hope he knows 99% of Xavier feels the same way

I agree with you that 99% of people who care about Xavier and Xavier basketball feel that way, given that they clearly understand that we have one of the best coaches in the game, that he is truly loyal to X, and that this year has turned out to be an anomaly, primarily due to terribly unfortunate injuries to key players.

A S16 right out of the gate as soon as he comes back.

This patched together, limping season.

What to expect from here? We'll move on with Sean building it back up and hopefully taking us to places we've never been before as we move forward. People who are around college basketball and know college basketball do not look at the Xavier program and see an organization in dire straights. They see the exact opposite.

I believe Sean believes that and that he feels the support from the X Community. A S16, a hiccup, and we're off to the races beyond this season - with Sean Miller at the helm.

[MHettel]

I agree with you that 99% of people who care about Xavier and Xavier basketball feel that way, given that they clearly understand that we have one of the best coaches in the game, that he is truly loyal to X, and that this year has turned out to be an anomaly, primarily due to terribly unfortunate injuries to key players.

A S16 right out of the gate as soon as he comes back.

This patched together, limping season.

What to expect from here? We'll move on with Sean building it back up and hopefully taking us to places we've never been before as we move forward. People who are around college basketball and know college basketball do not look at the Xavier program and see an organization in dire straights. They see the exact opposite.

I believe Sean believes that and that he feels the support from the X Community. A S16, a hiccup, and we're off to the races beyond this season - with Sean Miller at the helm.

Ok, but…..

Steele sucked and Jonas Hayes was able to coach that team to an NIT championship.

That roster was pretty good. Boum made it very good. Sean had ALOT to work with.

So if you want to give him credit for what he did last year, then it’s only fair to give him credit for how this year has gone. This is his roster.

[A Fan]

I think it is safe to assume that 99% of people who care about Xavier and Xavier basketball feel that way, given that they clearly understand that we have one of the best coaches in the game, that he is truly loyal to X, and that this year has turned out to be an anomaly, primarily due to terribly unfortunate injuries to key players.

A S16 right out of the gate as soon as he comes back.

This patched together, limping season.

What to expect from here? We'll move on with Sean building it back up and hopefully taking us to places we've never been before as we move forward. People who are around college basketball and know college basketball do not look at the Xavier program and see an organization in dire straights. They see the exact opposite.

“ People who are around college basketball and know college basketball do not look at the Xavier program and see an organization in dire straights. ”.

People who are around College basketball and talk to the Sport’s Lawyers know it is a new era. Jay Wright knew what was coming and had the prescience to get out on a high note. Great coaches could recruit great players because they knew the coach could elevate their game. Jay Wright’s players may have left a year or two early to enter the NBA and monetize their value but they stayed with him till ready. Today the good players can monetize their value out of high school and the portal. Putting togeter a roster will be annual event. Sean Miller has been a great coach. Unfortunately he has a very weak roster. To think he can add a few players out of the portal and have a 24/25 roster which is in the top 5 of the Big East is in my opinion a stretch. Xavier is not the only team looking for a front court and a sizzling 3 point shooter. And you will have to pay up to be a bidder. This is a multi year rebuild.

[Xville]

“ People who are around college basketball and know college basketball do not look at the Xavier program and see an organization in dire straights. ”.

People who are around College basketball and talk to the Sport’s Lawyers know it is a new era. Jay Wright knew what was coming and had the prescience to get out on a high note. Great coaches could recruit great players because they knew the coach could elevate their game. Jay Wright’s players may have left a year or two early to enter the NBA and monetize their value but they stayed with him till ready. Today the good players can monetize their value out of high school and the portal. Putting togeter a roster will be annual event. Sean Miller has been a great coach. Unfortunately he has a very weak roster. To think he can add a few players out of the portal and have a 24/25 roster which is in the top 5 of the Big East is in my opinion a stretch. Xavier is not the only team looking for a front court and a sizzling 3 point shooter. And you will have to pay up to be a bidder. This is a multi year rebuild.

IMO it depends. If free and or hunter are healthy next year, I think miller can turn it around in one year. I’m not concerned with replacing q, he’s a hell of a player but there are always a ton of guards available. Not concerned that miller won’t secure one or two. Now the big is another story and 1 isn’t going to cut it. But if it’s one plus a healthy free and abou available for depth, then x will be in great shape.

[xudash]

Ok, but…..

Steele sucked and Jonas Hayes was able to coach that team to an NIT championship.

That roster was pretty good. Boum made it very good. Sean had ALOT to work with.

So if you want to give him credit for what he did last year, then it’s only fair to give him credit for how this year has gone. This is his roster.

Who on that roster has not played one minute this year. I believe there are more than two answers to that question.

I understand where you're coming from. You want the best, you expect/demand the best, and excuses when things turn out below expectations aren't your top priority. I get it. Xavier playing at this level at the Cintas Center with this much investment in the sport is miles away from Schmidt Memorial and the MCC.

I'm personally giving a lot of credence to the idea that we would look very different had Free and Jerome been available this year, not to mention one or both of the 4-Star sharpshooters. I otherwise believe Sean will fix this - part of that is hoping that Xavier is all paid up in the unfortunate injury bank for a while.

To A Fan's point, it has all gotten much harder, and much more fluid. We all understand that the days of watching a 4-year high caliber player - especially at one place - are mostly over. BUT, it's gotten much harder for everyone.

I used to talk about the necessity of having all program elements in place. We were missing the final piece for the CONFERENCE AFFILIATION element until the Big East called us up. We have everything in place now, but with the reality of now having to navigate market values for individual players and the means to pay for new ones and retain the ones we want to keep. It's going to be the Wild Wild West for a while. We'll have to navigate it like everyone else. We'll lose some of those battles due to money, and we'll win some of those battles because of money and because of what Xavier has to offer on Victory Parkway.

I'm hopeful that Sean Miller is comfortable with that challenge, such that he sticks around a long time. If anyone knows how to weave a team together, it's Sean Miller. I understand he could leave us if the "right" job comes along, but I also understand that he is very loyal to Xavier. Thankfully, he's built differently that way.

Otherwise, more money is on the way in the form of a pumped up media agreement. And we all know more change is coming.

[Xavier]

So if you want to give him credit for what he did last year, then it’s only fair to give him credit for how this year has gone. This is his roster.

*minus the starting front court he expected back. I get that it’s an excuse, but I’d be curious to see how many teams would still look good if they lost arguably the top 2 players on the team when it was too late to really fill the spots through portal. The players he brought in with free/hunter still in the works have actually been good enough.

[MHettel]

*minus the starting front court he expected back. I get that it’s an excuse, but I’d be curious to see how many teams would still look good if they lost arguably the top 2 players on the team when it was too late to really fill the spots through portal. The players he brought in with free/hunter still in the works have actually been good enough.

Relying on free was a risk. He had foot injuries for parts of 2 seasons and them last year just a few days from being cleared to play he was suddenly out for the year and required another surgery. So the plan was that we would count on him for this year? And shockingly, it didn’t work out!

The hunter situation was tragic and you can’t forecast or predict a guy that is otherwise healthy to just miss the whole year.

However, I’ll go back to a year prior when Miller took over. We had dead weight in Miles, Edwards, Tandy and Ben Stanley. Only Stanley left, but eventually the other guys did too. Maybe some additional turnover was needed then. Imagine bringing in an Nzeh type last year and then maybe this year he would have been able to contribute.

That’s a miss in my book.

No we are 7-8 guys away. I see things in Claude, McKnight, swain and green that I like as individual players. I even like Abou if he can just be a defensive first guy. I’d give another year to Nzeh and Ciani as well. As individuals. But these guys together didn’t work.

I can’t see next year being competitive. We may have some NIL money to fish with, but let’s not forget that we may need to make competitive offers to our existing guys just to keep them.

[bleedXblue]

Relying on free was a risk. He had foot injuries for parts of 2 seasons and them last year just a few days from being cleared to play he was suddenly out for the year and required another surgery. So the plan was that we would count on him for this year? And shockingly, it didn’t work out!

The hunter situation was tragic and you can’t forecast or predict a guy that is otherwise healthy to just miss the whole year.

However, I’ll go back to a year prior when Miller took over. We had dead weight in Miles, Edwards, Tandy and Ben Stanley. Only Stanley left, but eventually the other guys did too. Maybe some additional turnover was needed then. Imagine bringing in an Nzeh type last year and then maybe this year he would have been able to contribute.

That’s a miss in my book.

No we are 7-8 guys away. I see things in Claude, McKnight, swain and green that I like as individual players. I even like Abou if he can just be a defensive first guy. I’d give another year to Nzeh and Ciani as well. As individuals. But these guys together didn’t work.

I can’t see next year being competitive. We may have some NIL money to fish with, but let’s not forget that we may need to make competitive offers to our existing guys just to keep them.

pretty spot on

[xudash]

I’m recalling Jack Nunge’s medical track record before he got to Xavier, and I’m smiling about his record while at Xavier. Hindsight is easy. The injury risk issue works both ways.

[Xville]

Relying on free was a risk. He had foot injuries for parts of 2 seasons and them last year just a few days from being cleared to play he was suddenly out for the year and required another surgery. So the plan was that we would count on him for this year? And shockingly, it didn’t work out!

The hunter situation was tragic and you can’t forecast or predict a guy that is otherwise healthy to just miss the whole year.

However, I’ll go back to a year prior when Miller took over. We had dead weight in Miles, Edwards, Tandy and Ben Stanley. Only Stanley left, but eventually the other guys did too. Maybe some additional turnover was needed then. Imagine bringing in an Nzeh type last year and then maybe this year he would have been able to contribute.

That’s a miss in my book.

No we are 7-8 guys away. I see things in Claude, McKnight, swain and green that I like as individual players. I even like Abou if he can just be a defensive first guy. I’d give another year to Nzeh and Ciani as well. As individuals. But these guys together didn’t work.

I can’t see next year being competitive. We may have some NIL money to fish with, but let’s not forget that we may need to make competitive offers to our existing guys just to keep them.

7-8 guys away? Come on man. Way too much doom and gloom. And how was miller supposed to get a nzeh type player last year again in April when he took over? How many of those guys you think were out there available when there was zero playing time available and was all of a sudden going to be ready to go this year?

This questioning by you of miller is getting quite ridiculous. The guy has a track record and everyone and their brother says he is an amazing coach. Plus, we have seen it firsthand yet all you have been doing is making excuses for why he isn’t. Why?

Next year, One of hunter/free, a replacement for q and a legit 4/5 and the team is top 5 in be big East and in the tourney. Write it down

[Olsingledigit]

IMO it depends. If free and or hunter are healthy next year, I think miller can turn it around in one year. I’m not concerned with replacing q, he’s a hell of a player but there are always a ton of guards available. Not concerned that miller won’t secure one or two. Now the big is another story and 1 isn’t going to cut it. But if it’s one plus a healthy free and abou available for depth, then x will be in great shape.

Abou is out of eligibility.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

pretty spot on

No it is not. It is 20/20 hindsight. That's all.

[X-band '01]

Abou is out of eligibility.

Quincy Olivari will be out of eligibility; Ousmane still has a grad year remaining.

Dayvion McKnight also has a grad year remaining, but this will be the last time people will get the extra Covid year.

[MHettel]

7-8 guys away? Come on man. Way too much doom and gloom. And how was miller supposed to get a nzeh type player last year again in April when he took over? How many of those guys you think were out there available when there was zero playing time available and was all of a sudden going to be ready to go this year?

This questioning by you of miller is getting quite ridiculous. The guy has a track record and everyone and their brother says he is an amazing coach. Plus, we have seen it firsthand yet all you have been doing is making excuses for why he isn’t. Why?

Next year, One of hunter/free, a replacement for q and a legit 4/5 and the team is top 5 in be big East and in the tourney. Write it down

Ok I’ll write it down. Right next to that 13 win big east total you insisted on.

Also, by the way, if you’ve been watching this team recently, you will see that when their backs were to the wall and they still had a chance to salvage a tourney run, they QUIT.

The last half dozen or so games have included some of the most listless, lifeless effort I can recall in an XU uniform.

Rick Pitino has 10 new guys too. He lit his guys up and they stole one against Creighton. We wilted.

Grade this team out at the end of the year. Q gets an A-, and nobody else higher than a B. Lots of C-, Ds, and Fs. Miller grades out as a C….maybe.

I’m sorry if you don’t like my viewpoint, but this seasons has been garbage and it’s laid at the feet of the players AND the coaches

[MHettel]

No it is not. It is 20/20 hindsight. That's all.

Really? He kept 3 guys that didn’t play for an extra year only to have them transfer. Then he lost Free which was foreseeable, and Hunter which was not.

All I hear is that “there were 10 new players!”, but isn’t that a consequence of millers own decisions?

[Drew]

X will never have the bucks to pay our players competitively and the coach competitively. Long term the better play is probably to prioritize funds for the players. Best coach in the world can't win without players.

[Xville]

Ok I’ll write it down. Right next to that 13 win big east total you insisted on.

Also, by the way, if you’ve been watching this team recently, you will see that when their backs were to the wall and they still had a chance to salvage a tourney run, they QUIT.

The last half dozen or so games have included some of the most listless, lifeless effort I can recall in an XU uniform.

Rick Pitino has 10 new guys too. He lit his guys up and they stole one against Creighton. We wilted.

Grade this team out at the end of the year. Q gets an A-, and nobody else higher than a B. Lots of C-, Ds, and Fs. Miller grades out as a C….maybe.

I’m sorry if you don’t like my viewpoint, but this seasons has been garbage and it’s laid at the feet of the players AND the coaches

Whatever. Yeah I was wrong that I thought the frontcourt would develop. Shit happens, but to continually make excuses for why miller isn’t an exceptional coach is ridiculous. Your excuses have been,

1. Miller should be clairvoyant and knew free was going to get injured again so he should have gotten insurance for it two years ago from someone assured of zero playing time and been able to develop them so they are good to go for this year.

2. Miller was only good for x because we had the most resources in the a10 so it’s easy to win at x.

3. He had a lot of resource at Arizona so it’s easy to win at Arizona.

4. Once free/jerome were injured/out he should have been able to just call on anyone that late in the game to replace them. (He tried but the pool was small and he was very late to the game.)

5. He is an excuse maker because he had ten new guys , several being freshmen and international, and said they would need time to gel. Gawd forbid

Anything else I’m missing? Not saying miller is infallible but you have made several comments that are hindsight and out of touch. Maybe you should call miller up and tell him your plan for how to get the train back on the tracks

[Xville]

Really? He kept 3 guys that didn’t play for an extra year only to have them transfer. Then he lost Free which was foreseeable, and Hunter which was not.

All I hear is that “there were 10 new players!”, but isn’t that a consequence of millers own decisions?

Oh miller must have been the one to injure free and give Jerome a heart attack.

[Xville]

Ok I’ll write it down. Right next to that 13 win big east total you insisted on.

Also, by the way, if you’ve been watching this team recently, you will see that when their backs were to the wall and they still had a chance to salvage a tourney run, they QUIT.

The last half dozen or so games have included some of the most listless, lifeless effort I can recall in an XU uniform.

Rick Pitino has 10 new guys too. He lit his guys up and they stole one against Creighton. We wilted.

Grade this team out at the end of the year. Q gets an A-, and nobody else higher than a B. Lots of C-, Ds, and Fs. Miller grades out as a C….maybe.

I’m sorry if you don’t like my viewpoint, but this seasons has been garbage and it’s laid at the feet of the players AND the coaches

Rick pitino had an all conference big East big man that came back. Wonder how he would have done without Soriano. How many of his ten new guys were freshmen? How many international? Did he have two guys gone down late in the portal/recruiting window we didnt know about?

Pitino is a hall of famer, arguably the best coach ever and he has a half game up on x with a fifth year second team all big East big man that came back.

[Xavier]

That’s a miss in my book.

No we are 7-8 guys away. I see things in Claude, McKnight, swain and green that I like as individual players. I even like Abou if he can just be a defensive first guy. I’d give another year to Nzeh and Ciani as well. As individuals. But these guys together didn’t work.

I can’t see next year being competitive. We may have some NIL money to fish with, but let’s not forget that we may need to make competitive offers to our existing guys just to keep them.

You just named 4 guys you like with a 5th as a potential guy. And say we need 8 more. How big of a rotation you think we should be playing?? Lol.

We played 7 guys last year. (I know, you don’t think Sean did a good job last year- but it was one of better season in X history). All I’m saying is- I don’t anticipate X regularly playing even a 9 man rotation almost ever. 7-8 guys is all you really need.

[A Fan]

X will never have the bucks to pay our players competitively and the coach competitively. Long term the better play is probably to prioritize funds for the players. Best coach in the world can't win without players.

That is a very astute observation made succinctly . A wordier rendition goes like this. At schools like Xavier that don’t have seemingly unlimited athletic funds like the big state schools, Athletic Directors will weigh whether a high priced coach is needed to coach average players. Said otherwise, if a school has a $3 M coach and a $ 1M collective would they be better off with a $ 1M coach and a $3M collective. Look at the NBA. What percentage of the players salaries is the coaches’ salaries.? Why shouldn’t colleges be the same?

[Xville]

X will never have the bucks to pay our players competitively and the coach competitively. Long term the better play is probably to prioritize funds for the players. Best coach in the world can't win without players.

Yeah x should go cheap with someone like Steele.

Heck maybe x should just do a Nil fundraiser every year. each dollar to nil gets you a raffle ticket and at the beginning of the year, a ticket is pulled. The person with the winning ticket gets to coach for the year for 500k or so.

I’m joking of course but my point is, I’ll take the good coach.

I think there is a little bit of overestimating nil imo.

[MHettel]

You just named 4 guys you like with a 5th as a potential guy. And say we need 8 more. How big of a rotation you think we should be playing?? Lol.

We played 7 guys last year. (I know, you don’t think Sean did a good job last year- but it was one of better season in X history). All I’m saying is- I don’t anticipate X regularly playing even a 9 man rotation almost ever. 7-8 guys is all you really need.

I like those guys as individual players. But together it didn’t work. I would keep a few of them. I think we will need a bunch of new guys and a couple more years. 7-8 addition new guys next year doesn’t make sense. But we are 2-3 years away. We need 7-8 players to emerge over the next couple years to put us in a position where we can win “now” and be positioned for 1-2 years ahead

[MHettel]

Whatever. Yeah I was wrong that I thought the frontcourt would develop. Shit happens, but to continually make excuses for why miller isn’t an exceptional coach is ridiculous. Your excuses have been,

1. Miller should be clairvoyant and knew free was going to get injured again so he should have gotten insurance for it two years ago from someone assured of zero playing time and been able to develop them so they are good to go for this year.

2. Miller was only good for x because we had the most resources in the a10 so it’s easy to win at x.

3. He had a lot of resource at Arizona so it’s easy to win at Arizona.

4. Once free/jerome were injured/out he should have been able to just call on anyone that late in the game to replace them. (He tried but the pool was small and he was very late to the game.)

5. He is an excuse maker because he had ten new guys , several being freshmen and international, and said they would need time to gel. Gawd forbid

Anything else I’m missing? Not saying miller is infallible but you have made several comments that are hindsight and out of touch. Maybe you should call miller up and tell him your plan for how to get the train back on the tracks


1. Yes. Not having Free was a very forseeable event.

2. Yes. XU talent in the A10 was better and deeper than most of the league. There were 2-3 decent teams a year and a bunch of cannon fodder.

3. Yes. Arizona is a top program and arguably the best program in the West. Easy to recruit great players, easy to win with great players. No Final 4s for miller at Zona? That doesn’t give you any pause?

4. I never expected us to be able get anyone at that stage of the season. But we were obviously unprepared

5. Yes. Pretty much exactly that. And I called that out before the year even started. No hindsight involved there, professor

I would call Miller to tell him what to do, but I need some NIL money first

[MHettel]

I think we should just pay the coach 5M and have nothing for the NIL. The coach will quickly realize that he’s better off using some of that 5M towards NIL to build a roster so he can make it to year 2. That approach would help us find the equilibrium very quickly

[Xville]

1. Yes. Not having Free was a very forseeable event.

2. Yes. XU talent in the A10 was better and deeper than most of the league. There were 2-3 decent teams a year and a bunch of cannon fodder.

3. Yes. Arizona is a top program and arguably the best program in the West. Easy to recruit great players, easy to win with great players. No Final 4s for miller at Zona? That doesn’t give you any pause?

4. I never expected us to be able get anyone at that stage of the season. But we were obviously unprepared

5. Yes. Pretty much exactly that. And I called that out before the year even started. No hindsight involved there, professor

I would call Miller to tell him what to do, but I need some NIL money first

Well we understand now that you think you know more than miller and you believe he’s not an exceptional coach. You disagree with basically everyone that knows anything about basketball. Interesting hot take.

1. “Oh hey four star recruit/transfer. We want to bring you in to play at Xavier. Not sure if you will play, we have this all big East conference player who may or may not get injured again but hey he may so you may get a chance to play. Wanna sign with us or go to a different big time school where you are assured of starting?”


2. How’d he get that talent? Probably not because he was a good coach. I just have missed the part where prosser made all those second weekends in the tourney.


3. Easy to win with great players…… you should try coaching since it’s so easy. He lost in the elite eight a few times by one possession. Shit happens.


4. Unprepared for two events that you wanted miller to be clairvoyant. How do you think recruiting actually works especially in the present day. Oh hey decent player… just go rot on the bench and you can maybe play next year.

5. Freshmen typically get better throughout the year. Green and dailyn both did/have. It makes logical sense that the frontcourt would have done the same thing. It didn’t happen

[profson]

No it’s not. His roster had Free and Jerome

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

1. Yes. Not having Free was a very forseeable event.

2. Yes. XU talent in the A10 was better and deeper than most of the league. There were 2-3 decent teams a year and a bunch of cannon fodder.

3. Yes. Arizona is a top program and arguably the best program in the West. Easy to recruit great players, easy to win with great players. No Final 4s for miller at Zona? That doesn’t give you any pause?

4. I never expected us to be able get anyone at that stage of the season. But we were obviously unprepared

5. Yes. Pretty much exactly that. And I called that out before the year even started. No hindsight involved there, professor

I would call Miller to tell him what to do, but I need some NIL money first


Jesus. Get a grip. All you're doing is looking backwards and now with the benefit of that look back, you identify everything you would have done differently. It is hard to take you seriously.

[MHettel]

Well we understand now that you think you know more than miller and you believe he’s not an exceptional coach. You disagree with basically everyone that knows anything about basketball. Interesting hot take.

Where are getting these conclusions?

“I believe I know more than Miller.” I don’t recall saying that. Can you point me to where I said that.

“You believe he’s not an exceptional coach.” Again did I actually say that? Or are you saying you know what I believe even though I never said that? Or possibly, my unvarnished views about what contributed to the mess we have this year is too much for you to handle and you prefer to ignore the information
that is available to you and simply attack someone that calls it like I see it.

“You disagree with everyone that knows anything about basketball”. Ok, hyperbole much? I would consider you to be an astute judge of basketball acumen, as evidenced by your 13 Big East win prediction that was based on who-knows-what other than the fact you WANTED them to win 13 games.

Honestly bro. Just watch. Stop being a fan, and WATCH THIS GARBAGE TEAM. Tell me it’s well constructed, or well prepared, or well coached.

[profson]

Of course Free was (and is) a risk. But his existence severely limited what Sean could do to mitigate the risk. Imagine going to a PF (or C if you prefer) in the portal at Free’s level with this pitch: yes, Free is All Big East level when healthy and of course would play 30+ minutes but he is a risk for us so please come to us instead of somewhere else where you are guaranteed 30+ minutes and the same NIL or more (which is a little limited because of what Free and Hunter will get and what we need for a good PG and a shooter).

[Xville]

Where are getting these conclusions?

“I believe I know more than Miller.” I don’t recall saying that. Can you point me to where I said that.

“You believe he’s not an exceptional coach.” Again did I actually say that? Or are you saying you know what I believe even though I never said that? Or possibly, my unvarnished views about what contributed to the mess we have this year is too much for you to handle and you prefer to ignore the information
that is available to you and simply attack someone that calls it like I see it.

“You disagree with everyone that knows anything about basketball”. Ok, hyperbole much? I would consider you to be an astute judge of basketball acumen, as evidenced by your 13 Big East win prediction that was based on who-knows-what other than the fact you WANTED them to win 13 games.

Honestly bro. Just watch. Stop being a fan, and WATCH THIS GARBAGE TEAM. Tell me it’s well constructed, or well prepared, or well coached.

I have watched BRO. I’m aware of what this season turned out to be. One season does not a coach, program or team make. You seriously need to get a grip and get off the hindsight train.

The 13 win prediction was based on how the schedule broke in February and how the team had performed up to that point. There were signs the team was getting better, and the schedule was more favorable in feb than January. X was 5-5 at the end of Jan. Three games against DePaul, gtown. Home at nova, providence, creighton and Marquette. Road seton hall and butler. Perfectly acceptable to think they could pull 8 wins out of that group. They fizzled and the freshmen hit a wall. It happens. Let you in on a secret, you’re not always right either.


However, As nuts said congrats you were right for once about this season. Your t-shirt is in the mail.

Everything you have said about miller the last few weeks points to exactly how you feel about him so don’t backtrack now.

[Xavier]

.

“You believe he’s not an exceptional coach.” Again did I actually say that? Or are you saying you know what I believe even though I never said that? Or possibly, my unvarnished views about what contributed to the mess we have this year is too much for you to handle and you prefer to ignore the information
that is available to you and simply attack someone that calls it like I see it.

.

Wasn’t it you that questioned if he was a good enough coach to be successful in the BE? You or XUKeith maybe. Something like doing it in the A-10 isn’t too impressive and at Arizona just had more talent than everyone.

It was just such an interesting time to argue that fresh off the 2nd best season X has had in the BE. On a roster that never finished higher than 6th under Steele.

* if I would’ve read the thread I would see, it was indeed you. It’s easy to make arguments when you throw out last years success. Maybe 3-4 better regular seasons in program history, with only 3 better post seasons.

[MHettel]

Wasn’t it you that questioned if he was a good enough coach to be successful in the BE? You or XUKeith maybe. Something like doing it in the A-10 isn’t too impressive and at Arizona just had more talent than everyone.

It was just such an interesting time to argue that fresh off the 2nd best season X has had in the BE. On a roster that never finished higher than 6th under Steele.

* if I would’ve read the thread I would see, it was indeed you. It’s easy to make arguments when you throw out last years success. Maybe 3-4 better regular seasons in program history, with only 3 better post seasons.

Last year was great. We had a loaded roster and adding Boum was huge. I gave Miller a TON of Credit for having Jerome and Free stop taking 3s.

With that said last year seemed so great because Steele kept squandering the talent that he had. Arguably last years roster was the best in the past 5 years and Miller did a lot with it. I’m not sure I ever said or suggested otherwise

[Xavier]

Fair enough, I thought I saw you question if he could coach in the BE. Saw it somewhere here, must have been a different poster.

Though I will say, most people coming into the year wouldn’t have thought it was a loaded team. And as I mentioned, it was mainly 6 or 7 guys tops. It wasn’t that loaded, IMO. People complained about lack of depth throughout the Year.

[MHettel]

Fair enough, I thought I saw you question if he could coach in the BE. Saw it somewhere here, must have been a different poster.

Though I will say, most people coming into the year wouldn’t have thought it was a loaded team. And as I mentioned, it was mainly 6 or 7 guys tops. It wasn’t that loaded, IMO. People complained about lack of depth throughout the Year.

Most people thought that because Steele was so awful that it seemed like the playeds MUST have been bad.

[D-West & PO-Z]

7-8 guys away? Come on man. Way too much doom and gloom. And how was miller supposed to get a nzeh type player last year again in April when he took over? How many of those guys you think were out there available when there was zero playing time available and was all of a sudden going to be ready to go this year?

This questioning by you of miller is getting quite ridiculous. The guy has a track record and everyone and their brother says he is an amazing coach. Plus, we have seen it firsthand yet all you have been doing is making excuses for why he isn’t. Why?

Next year, One of hunter/free, a replacement for q and a legit 4/5 and the team is top 5 in be big East and in the tourney. Write it down

I agree. I think we are one guy away on this team being really good. We lose Q so I think we are 2 away for next year.

And why the hell does everyone always discount any player jumps/development from one year to the next? See Claude last year to this year. Colby Jones Soph to Jr year. If Claude takes the leap Colby did, watch out.

If Green and Swain take the type of leaps Claude did from year 1 to 2, watch out.

If Miller secure a shooter and a big guy this offseason X is in business.

[D-West & PO-Z]

X will never have the bucks to pay our players competitively and the coach competitively. Long term the better play is probably to prioritize funds for the players. Best coach in the world can't win without players.

See, Steele, Travis for how bad teams can be with good players but a bad coach.

No thanks.

[D-West & PO-Z]

That is a very astute observation made succinctly . A wordier rendition goes like this. At schools like Xavier that don’t have seemingly unlimited athletic funds like the big state schools, Athletic Directors will weigh whether a high priced coach is needed to coach average players. Said otherwise, if a school has a $3 M coach and a $ 1M collective would they be better off with a $ 1M coach and a $3M collective. Look at the NBA. What percentage of the players salaries is the coaches’ salaries.? Why shouldn’t colleges be the same?

Because then we'd be stuck with Travis Steele.

[Xuperman]

I agree. I think we are one guy away on this team being really good. We lose Q so I think we are 2 away for next year.

This kinda assumes that Miller can retain all of his current players that are eligible for next season. There will be movement. I believe that only McKnight and Ousman are assured to suit up '24-'25.

[XUGRAD80]

Last year was great. We had a loaded roster and adding Boum was huge. I gave Miller a TON of Credit for having Jerome and Free stop taking 3s.

With that said last year seemed so great because Steele kept squandering the talent that he had. Arguably last years roster was the best in the past 5 years and Miller did a lot with it. I’m not sure I ever said or suggested otherwise

X had a very good group of players last year, but that group was only 6-7 deep. The rest of the roster wasn’t very good, which was why they hardly got any playing time after the conference season started. This year’s roster is basically 3 guards deep and a couple of promising freshman. The rest of it is mostly prospects and suspects. They have not progressed and developed the way that most of us thought they would. Based on what the players that left have accomplished for the most part after leaving, I’m not very confident that the rosters Steele had were overall very talented at all. Most of them have not had successful college careers at all. I do think that this year’s roster has a lot of potential, but it really wouldn’t surprise me to see any of them leave during the off-season. I actually believe that Miller may not want some of them back and may do what he can to see them leave. But, I also think that if a player does come back it will because Miller sees something in that player and feels that they will be a good player in his system and will be a contributor.

[Xville]

After listening to the snip from Miller's Coach's show last night there are two truths I know.

1.) Miller isn't going anywhere for a while.

2.) Miller will fix this.

Bonus: Whoever has been loafing it here recently, won't be back. He's very pissed off, which is a great thing to hear.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This kinda assumes that Miller can retain all of his current players that are eligible for next season. There will be movement. I believe that only McKnight and Ousman are assured to suit up '24-'25.

Obviously a lot of moving parts but he doesnt need to keep everyone.

My ideal roster scenario for next year:

McKnight
Transfers
Claude
Free (obviously hope he is healthy)
Transfer

Bench:
Swain
Green
Ousmane
Ciani
Nzeh
Hunter (have him at the bottom b/c not sure what he will realistically be able to contribute)

I think if those 2 transfers are solid additions we can be pretty good next year. Guys returning will need to make a jump from one year to the next but I don't think that is far fetched.

That means those leaving might be Gytis, Lazar, Ducharme, Craft. If Miller wants to retain some of them/they want to return, great, I trust Miller with a full offseason to make the right additions and subtractions for next year.

Miller might want to add 2 bigs. I haven't got a chance to listen to his whole radio show from last night but my buddy said he said this is his 19th year coaching and this is his 19th best rebounding team. He obviously will want to fix that.

My buddy said they way Miller was so passionately talking he couldn't imagine Miller is on his way out either, but obviously who knows.

[Xville]

Obviously a lot of moving parts but he doesnt need to keep everyone.

My ideal roster scenario for next year:

McKnight
Transfers
Claude
Free (obviously hope he is healthy)
Transfer

Bench:
Swain
Green
Ousmane
Ciani
Nzeh
Hunter (have him at the bottom b/c not sure what he will realistically be able to contribute)

I think if those 2 transfers are solid additions we can be pretty good next year. Guys returning will need to make a jump from one year to the next but I don't think that is far fetched.

That means those leaving might be Gytis, Lazar, Ducharme, Craft. If Miller wants to retain some of them/they want to return, great, I trust Miller with a full offseason to make the right additions and subtractions for next year.

Miller might want to add 2 bigs. I haven't got a chance to listen to his whole radio show from last night but my buddy said he said this is his 19th year coaching and this is his 19th best rebounding team. He obviously will want to fix that.

My buddy said they way Miller was so passionately talking he couldn't imagine Miller is on his way out either, but obviously who knows.

Yeah, he isn't going anywhere with the way he talked last night, unless he is just one hell of an actor.

Here is the link to the show. Around the 7 minute mark is where Miller gets fired up and around the 30 minute mark he talks about the shaping of next years roster:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/xavier-basketball-show/id1253576507?i=1000647166297

I think on Wednesday, we will know a few guys on the team that won't be here next year based on his comments. I think they are guys who are/were in regular rotation that won't be playing anymore.

In regards to the roster, don't forget powell :) . I don't see Nzeh and Ciani both staying unless Abou leaves. I'd think they would want to play and with Free/Hunter in the mix, along with transfers, there isn't going to be much if any time for them imo.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yeah, he isn't going anywhere with the way he talked last night, unless he is just one hell of an actor.

Here is the link to the show. Around the 7 minute mark is where Miller gets fired up and around the 30 minute mark he talks about the shaping of next years roster:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/xavier-basketball-show/id1253576507?i=1000647166297

I think on Wednesday, we will know a few guys on the team that won't be here next year based on his comments. I think they are guys who are/were in regular rotation that won't be playing anymore.

In regards to the roster, don't forget powell :) . I don't see Nzeh and Ciani both staying unless Abou leaves. I'd think they would want to play and with Free/Hunter in the mix, along with transfers, there isn't going to be much if any time for them imo.

Yeah probably right. It's tough because I see promise on both. Ciani sooner but Nzeh with more potential.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

After listening to the snip from Miller's Coach's show last night there are two truths I know.

1.) Miller isn't going anywhere for a while.

2.) Miller will fix this.

Bonus: Whoever has been loafing it here recently, won't be back. He's very pissed off, which is a great thing to hear.

Yeah. I listened also. Miller made reference to 31 snippets of tape exposing lack of effort from individual players. He went on to discuss 17 of those occurrences and although he did not identify the player, the context gave me the impression he was talking about one individual. You can be sure, if he was referring to one individual, that player is likely a starter and is likely on the hot seat.

Given all the discussion about what Miller should have known or anticipated, the one strong conclusion to which I 100% agree, is (2) above.

[bleedXblue]

If Miller isnt going anywhere, I would love to hear him say that. Maybe he did, but i doubt it. Consider me scarred from the last 5 guys that we felt the same way about.....only to have them leave.

[XUGRAD80]

He certainly didn’t sound like someone that was not planning on being here next year.


Also….he sounded like someone that was very frustrated with some players lack of effort.

[Tim]

Claude has no heart and I'm sure Miller is targeting him in his comments. It's stunning to me that posters i respect think he's developed significantly from last year to now.

Also, at least the same hysterical poster that keeps pointing fingers at Miller is being taken to the woodshed so there's that.