Euros in BE Play

[MHettel]

In 3 BE games our 3 Euro players combined are playing 39 minutes per game. So essentially one of those guys is on the court at all times. The 3 of them are combining for 20% of all available minutes.

Their production is as follows:

5.7 PPG on 21% Shooting (2.3 makes on 11.3 attempts per game). This also includes 13% from 3 ( .3 makes on 2.7 attempts per game).

50% from the FT line. this includes 2 makes, in 4 attempts......TOTAL in 3 games.

9.7 RPG, which isnt terrible but also kind of what you woudl expect from a player playing 40 minutes at the 4 or 5.

2.3 APG

.3 BPG

.3 SPG

4.3 Fouls per game; basically if this was just one guy, he couldnt even PLAY 40 minutes a game.

1.7 TO's per game.

I've seen enough. This Euro experience (experiment?) has been a complete bust. I understand that we didnt get the front line Euro talent due to the timing. I undersatnd that Free and Jerome were "late scratches" for the season that led to this outcome.

But it isnt working, at all.

Ciani looks like he could anchor the interior, but he plays below the rim and is weaker than he appears he should be. He's got zero low post offensive game and cant really even pass out of the post. too easy to gameplay against a guy that is a black hole offensively in teh post.

Lazar shows nothing. I dont even see the potential to be honest. How many guys have we seen over the years that as freshmen were glued to the bench and we never even got to see what they could do? How is Lazar even getting any minutes?

Gytis is the most perplexing, becasue he's older and simply have played more games against higher level competition that the others. So he should be further along, right? But he's been absent.

We can SEE the offense struggle when these guys are out there. The ball doesnt move as well, and the shots arent open (a hallmark of last years team). There is no passing out of the post and without any shooters on the court (aside from Q and Green when he plays) there is no danger when a defense does leave a guy open.

Im ready to move on. this season is lost. we have 17 BE games left and probably need to win 11 to get to the bubble. we may not be "mathmatically eliminated"......but we are out of it.

I'd like to see much more of Trey Green and Swain. And for that matter, Nzeh should be getting some run as well. Even if it costs us some games, then silver lining is some expereince (confidence) for these guys and gives Miller a good look at what he's got in his young guys.

The Euro's have had enough opportunity and frankly have squandered it. I think Ciani could stick....eventually. Gytis will probably still play due to need. Lazar just isnt ready or good enough to play at this level.

[GoMuskies]

Can't disagree with any of this other than I'd probably hang with Djokovic for the future. But I don't understand why he's starting and playing so much (why he's playing more than Swain?!?).

It also makes me wonder how bad Ducharme is.

[MHettel]

Can't disagree with any of this other than I'd probably hang with Djokovic for the future. But I don't understand why he's starting and playing so much (why he's playing more than Swain?!?).

It also makes me wonder how bad Ducharme is.

Ducharme just looks like an 8th grader sitting on the varsity bench. Maybe he needs the full style Kunkel leg tattoo and just be a gritty hustle guy. he can apparently shoot, right? So I assme this lack of PT on this team is due to toughness / defense?

[drudy23]

How many recruits have we swung and missed on in the past 4-5 years? There's been alot of highly touted recruits that never amounted to much on the floor.

I thought Gytis was going to be a very good piece after the first couple of weeks. Then he disappeared.

[MHettel]

How many recruits have we swung and missed on in the past 4-5 years? There's been alot of highly touted recruits that never amounted to much on the floor.

I thought Gytis was going to be a very good piece after the first couple of weeks. Then he disappeared.

I wonder if there is some kind of collective hangover going on with these guys. I assume they are "bonding" together (saw then hanging out together in Vegas on Saturday night when we were there), and maybe instead of all of them playing UP to the highest level, they are collectively feeding off the downward trajectory...

[Xville]

I agree in that I’d rather see more swain/green but I’ll give ciani and djokovic a break as they are freshmen. Gytis I’m most disappointed about.

[bleedXblue]

I dont think this is a very tough decision. Way more of Green and Swain moving forward. I don't see Ciani or Gytis every becoming key contributors. Jury is out on Lazar. I worry about his motor. He doesnt play with any sense of urgency. I realize we need some size in the lineup, but if it isnt producing then whats the point? Also good to see Nzeh get a few minutes. Hopefully that means he making some progress.

[drudy23]

I dont think this is a very tough decision. Way more of Green and Swain moving forward. I don't see Ciani or Gytis every becoming key contributors. Jury is out on Lazar. I worry about his motor. He doesnt play with any sense of urgency. I realize we need some size in the lineup, but if it isnt producing then whats the point? Also good to see Nzeh get a few minutes. Hopefully that means he making some progress.

Funny the early report on Lazar was that his motor was non-stop.

Agree on Green and Swain.

[webxu]

I agree this season is a bust.. play the youth and let them get experience which will help in the years forward. Its a shame because we are wasting a superb season from Q.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I dont think this is a very tough decision. Way more of Green and Swain moving forward. I don't see Ciani or Gytis every becoming key contributors. Jury is out on Lazar. I worry about his motor. He doesnt play with any sense of urgency. I realize we need some size in the lineup, but if it isnt producing then whats the point? Also good to see Nzeh get a few minutes. Hopefully that means he making some progress.

I don't get never seeing Ciani as a contributor. He isn't polished, especially offensively, but he's been pretty serviceable. How many freshman bigs come in and contribute at X in any meaningful way right away? Not many and Ciani is at least contributing. Nzeh can't even see the floor, so I am assuming you don't see him every contributing either? Nor Ducharme? That means we have a boatload of scholarship players on the team this year and the next several who won't be contributing.

I was pleasantly surprised by Ciani and disappointed with Lazar, but again, both just freshman.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Also good to see Nzeh get a few minutes. Hopefully that means he making some progress.

He got 1 min and had 1 rebound and 2 fouls then didn't see the floor again. What could possibly make you think higher of him than Ciani?

[xuwillie]

I agree in that I’d rather see more swain/green but I’ll give ciani and djokovic a break as they are freshmen. Gytis I’m most disappointed about.

I’m surprised Gytis isn’t more serviceable. Also why miller hasn’t given Swain starting minutes at the 4. Is it due to his defense and being on the lighter side? This team is missing a shooter at the 3, Kraft would have been very useful on this team. Dez is a good option when you have a bunch of shooters but this team clearly doesn’t have that

[MHettel]

He got 1 min and had 1 rebound and 2 fouls then didn't see the floor again. What could possibly make you think higher of him than Ciani?

Nzeh has good size and has shown good athleticism. just practice and reps at this level could allow him to develop into a Tyrique Jones type of guy later on. Maybe, but thats his upside.

Ciani has shown no athleticism and although he looks "sturdy" he just gets pushed around. He has not shown an ability to rebound well against BE level bigs. Sure he gets some rebounds, but a guy like him needs to be a space eater. jason Love was no great athelete but used his body to hold position and was an anchor on the inside on both ends of the court. Ciani has had his shot blocked over and over without any help defense being involved.

Bottom line is that I've seen enough of Ciani to know that his upside is maybe Sean O'mara as an upperclassman. Got it. I dont need to see any more cause his upside is already "known" (to me).

Nzeh needs some extended run to see what we are working with. If he sucks or doesnt show any improvment then at least we know that. We all heard that he didnt play alot of basketball growing up, so that first part of the curve is alot easier to move along.

What do we have to lose, exactly?

[bleedXblue]

He got 1 min and had 1 rebound and 2 fouls then didn't see the floor again. What could possibly make you think higher of him than Ciani?

Did I say that? No Chill out.

It was stand alone comment on its own. Simply good to see Miller have some faith in putting him out there.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Nzeh has good size and has shown good athleticism. just practice and reps at this level could allow him to develop into a Tyrique Jones type of guy later on. Maybe, but thats his upside.

Ciani has shown no athleticism and although he looks "sturdy" he just gets pushed around. He has not shown an ability to rebound well against BE level bigs. Sure he gets some rebounds, but a guy like him needs to be a space eater. jason Love was no great athelete but used his body to hold position and was an anchor on the inside on both ends of the court. Ciani has had his shot blocked over and over without any help defense being involved.

Bottom line is that I've seen enough of Ciani to know that his upside is maybe Sean O'mara as an upperclassman. Got it. I dont need to see any more cause his upside is already "known" (to me).

Nzeh needs some extended run to see what we are working with. If he sucks or doesnt show any improvment then at least we know that. We all heard that he didnt play alot of basketball growing up, so that first part of the curve is alot easier to move along.

What do we have to lose, exactly?

Funny you bring up Jason Love. As a freshman in the A10 he started 0 games, averaged 4 mins in the 19 games he played averaging 1pt and 1 reb a game. Even though he was not athletic, he got better every year. Why could Ciani not do the same?

If Nzeh was capable of playing or contributing in any sort of meaningful way, Miller would be playing him. Clearly he is not.

And it isn't like, in this "lost season", that Ciani is a senior taking mins from a freshman Nzeh. They are both freshmen. Who knows what the future hold for either but one has gained Miller's trust and one can't see the floor.

[Xville]

Nzeh has good size and has shown good athleticism. just practice and reps at this level could allow him to develop into a Tyrique Jones type of guy later on. Maybe, but thats his upside.

Ciani has shown no athleticism and although he looks "sturdy" he just gets pushed around. He has not shown an ability to rebound well against BE level bigs. Sure he gets some rebounds, but a guy like him needs to be a space eater. jason Love was no great athelete but used his body to hold position and was an anchor on the inside on both ends of the court. Ciani has had his shot blocked over and over without any help defense being involved.

Bottom line is that I've seen enough of Ciani to know that his upside is maybe Sean O'mara as an upperclassman. Got it. I dont need to see any more cause his upside is already "known" (to me).

Nzeh needs some extended run to see what we are working with. If he sucks or doesnt show any improvment then at least we know that. We all heard that he didnt play alot of basketball growing up, so that first part of the curve is alot easier to move along.

What do we have to lose, exactly?

Kind of funny you mentioned Jason Love (who btw i loved) who barely saw the floor his freshman year, contributed slightly his sophomore year and then finally blossomed and this was against A-10 competition. Then in the same breadth, want to completely dismiss Ciani, a freshman, who is contributing against BE competition. And you already know his upside? Sorry but thats ridiculous. I'll trust Miller as to why we aren't seeing much of Nzeh right now. If this was steele, then maybe i'd feel differently.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Funny you bring up Jason Love. As a freshman in the A10 he started 0 games, averaged 4 mins in the 19 games he played averaging 1pt and 1 reb a game. Even though he was not athletic, he got better every year. Why could Ciani not do the same?

If Nzeh was capable of playing or contributing in any sort of meaningful way, Miller would be playing him. Clearly he is not.

And it isn't like, in this "lost season", that Ciani is a senior taking mins from a freshman Nzeh. They are both freshmen. Who knows what the future hold for either but one has gained Miller's trust and one can't see the floor.

Kachi's appearance last night, however brief, probably reflects attendance of friends and family at the game since he is from Philly.

I get your overall drift although I take a little bit of issue with your use of the word "trust" to describe Miller's use of Cianni. He has no other option as Kachi. I believe, is destined to be more of a "4". Sasa is the backup to Abou. There is no other option.

Hettel stated this season is "lost". I think a better way to put it is we are, at this point, stuck with this roster whatever happens the rest of the way. The guys we have now must produce different results going forward to salvage what looks like a down year.

I have to admit surprise at the failure of any of the Euros to noticeably impact this team. These individuals were apparently well thought of enough to attract the interest of Miller and some other college coaches. But here we are feeling disappointed. I don't blame Miller. They were late season additions. They have no experience playing here, they are young. And, in the end, Miller may prove right to bet on them. They may end up having very productive careers. Its early.

But I think we have to be careful expecting a big jump from them next year. Improvement sure but as Claude has demonstrated, incremental improvement is probably the most we should expect. It seems unlikely any of them will, in the space of a year, become completely different players.

Which leads to me to wonder what changes we might see in this roster at season end.

[bleedXblue]

Funny you bring up Jason Love. As a freshman in the A10 he started 0 games, averaged 4 mins in the 19 games he played averaging 1pt and 1 reb a game. Even though he was not athletic, he got better every year. Why could Ciani not do the same?

If Nzeh was capable of playing or contributing in any sort of meaningful way, Miller would be playing him. Clearly he is not.

And it isn't like, in this "lost season", that Ciani is a senior taking mins from a freshman Nzeh. They are both freshmen. Who knows what the future hold for either but one has gained Miller's trust and one can't see the floor.

Nzeh when recruited was a known project. I think he's only been playing organized bball for 3-4 years. Honestly unfair that either are really being counted on in a meaningful way, but that's where we are

[UCGRAD4X]

Bigs always take longer to develop - even more so to compete in the BE. There were not of options available by the time Miller had to look for some bigs. The fact that we have some that are, at least, somewhat serviceable in spots is a little impressive. Maybe not "impressive" perse but hopeful.

[MHettel]

Funny you bring up Jason Love. As a freshman in the A10 he started 0 games, averaged 4 mins in the 19 games he played averaging 1pt and 1 reb a game. Even though he was not athletic, he got better every year. Why could Ciani not do the same?

If Nzeh was capable of playing or contributing in any sort of meaningful way, Miller would be playing him. Clearly he is not.

And it isn't like, in this "lost season", that Ciani is a senior taking mins from a freshman Nzeh. They are both freshmen. Who knows what the future hold for either but one has gained Miller's trust and one can't see the floor.

Well, when he was a Freshman Jason Love was playing with Josh Duncan and Brandon Cole who played about 36 minutes between them. Also in the Front Court were Doellman, Cage and DBrown. Simply put there wasnt room for Love to get many minutes.

As a soph, Love played in 37 games and started 21 of them. He played with Duncan, Brown and CJ upfront that year.

Loves stats were 6 & 6 in 18 minutes, shooting 56% from the field. Solid.

Really not too hard to see that Love wasnt needed as a Freshman which is why he didnt play much.

The difference with Love's situation and what we have THIS Year is that there is an absolute NEED this year for some front court minutes. I'm simply wondering if we've seen what we need to see from Ciani and maybe Nzeh should get a look now.

[MHettel]

Nzeh when recruited was a known project. I think he's only been playing organized bball for 3-4 years. Honestly unfair that either are really being counted on in a meaningful way, but that's where we are

I'm not counting on Nzeh at all. I'm saying if this is a middling BE team with essentially no at-large chances to make the dance, then we might as well accelerate his learning curve. what do we have to lose?

[bleedXblue]

I'm not counting on Nzeh at all. I'm saying if this is a middling BE team with essentially no at-large chances to make the dance, then we might as well accelerate his learning curve. what do we have to lose?

Yeah easier said than done as all coaches are programmed to want to win first.........but don't disagree that he along with Trey and Swain need more minutes than they are getting now.

[Smails]

Really not too hard to see that Love wasnt needed as a Freshman which is why he didnt play much.



This is not true..Jason Love didn't play as a freshman because he was not ready. It's not like Brandon Cole was an all-league performer...we could have absolutely used some more depth that year, especially since Duncan was more comfy away from the hoop and not much of a banger. If Love was ready, he would have easily got 8-10 minutes/game. He was not ready.

[drudy23]

I'm saying if this is a middling BE team with essentially no at-large chances to make the dance, then we might as well accelerate his learning curve. what do we have to lose?

Agree - but coaches rarely do this.

[MHettel]

This is not true..Jason Love didn't play as a freshman because he was not ready. It's not like Brandon Cole was an all-league performer...we could have absolutely used some more depth that year, especially since Duncan was more comfy away from the hoop and not much of a banger. If Love was ready, he would have easily got 8-10 minutes/game. He was not ready.

I mean, I just gave you evidence that we had a deep frontcourt the year that Love was a Freshman. We had 3 seniors (Doellman, Cage, Cole) a Junior (Duncan), and a Redshirt Freshman (Brown) all deserving of minutes. If you want to insist that he "wasnt ready" in spite of the fact that there wasnt room for him even if whe was, then OK.

And in reality, I dont think he was as good as a freshman as he would become as a senior. But he didnt need to play as a freshman, luckily.

i guess in that vein, is Ciani playing becasue he is ready?

[Xville]

I mean, I just gave you evidence that we had a deep frontcourt the year that Love was a Freshman. We had 3 seniors (Doellman, Cage, Cole) a Junior (Duncan), and a Redshirt Freshman (Brown) all deserving of minutes. If you want to insist that he "wasnt ready" in spite of the fact that there wasnt room for him even if whe was, then OK.

And in reality, I dont think he was as good as a freshman as he would become as a senior. But he didnt need to play as a freshman, luckily.

i guess in that vein, is Ciani playing becasue he is ready?

Dude come on. Look at anything that year, and everyone said love wasn’t ready. Hell miller even mentioned it in the podcast.

Doellman was a 3/4 Cole was not good even as a senior, cage was a 3 and Duncan mostly played outside as a 4. You’re mistaken.

[MHettel]

A little more on Ciani in BE play

he's 3 for 12 shooting in 40 minutes of PT.

SJU Game- 0 for 3
Missed Layup
Missed Layup (blocked)
Missed Layup


SHU Game- 1 for 3
Missed Layup (blocked)
Made Layup
Missed Layup (blocked)


Nova Game- 2 for 6
Missed Layup (blocked)
Missed Jumper (blocked)
Made Jumper
Missed Layup
Missed Jumper
Made Layup

He's had his shot blocked on 5 of 12 attempts

[Smails]

If you want to insist that he "wasnt ready" in spite of the fact that there wasnt room for him even if whe was, then OK.



Not insisting anything..just echoing what everyone who followed the team (including the coaches) knew. There was absolutely room for a game ready big who could rebound and protect the rim on that team. That team had one true post player and could have 100% used another one. If your comparison is Love versus Ciani at this stage of their college careers...it's Ciani by a mile.

[MHettel]

Dude come on. Look at anything that year, and everyone said love wasn’t ready. Hell miller even mentioned it in the podcast.

Doellman was a 3/4 Cole was not good even as a senior, cage was a 3 and Duncan mostly played outside as a 4. You’re mistaken.

Starting lineup was Cage (SF), Doellman (PF), and Duncan (C). 3 productive players that combined for 77 minutes a game. That basically means 2 of them were out there at any given time.

Cole subbed in at the 5 for 17 minutes a game. Duncan could rest, or swing to 4 for a minute or 2.

Brown subbed in at 3/4 for 17 minutes a game. Doellman and Cage could rest, or switch spots or whatever.

No room for Love.

Duncan may have been a natural 4, but he played most of his minutes at the 5 that year. And the reason was NOT because Love wasnt ready. the reason was becasue those were our 3 best frontcourt players and miller was willing to play a guy out of position to get them all on the court together.

Also on that team were Lavender, Hammer and BJ. Thats another 76 minutes combined right there.

OUT OF NEED, Johnny Wolf was the backup PG, getting 9 minutes a game.

So out of NEED, we played Wolf on this loaded squad that lacked a backup ball handler. And due to a lack of need, Love had a very limited role.

By the way, Duncan missed 4 consecutive games in late Jan / early Feb. Love played in 3 of those games, and Love played 32 minutes, and went 3-5 from the field with 8 rebounds, and 3 blocks. 0-4 from the line, but at least he got to the line.... The 4th game was a road loss AT Dusquesne in a track meet 93-91 (not really a good fit for Love's game...)

[MHettel]

If your comparison is Love versus Ciani at this stage of their college careers...it's Ciani by a mile.

Love used his body to find positon and clear space. Ciani is getting abused.

Love averaged 11 & 11 per 40 minutes as a freshman with 3.2 blocks. Ciani is at 9 & 10 with 1.3 blocks. I'll make an adjustment for the A10 vs the BE, but thats not a "mile"

Yeah, getting posterized by Soriano multiple times was a real highlight.

One other interesting thing....Love was 19 years, 2 months old as a freshman. Ciani started this year at about 20 years 5 months old. I know the discussion will turn to "getting stronger", but he's already at the age where he should ahve some "man strength"

Ciani put up big numbers (18 & 12) on a U19 team in 2019 when he was 16. Maybe he was just one of those guys that was huge for his age and he dominated, but when everyone else catches up, that advantage goes away....

[D-West & PO-Z]

Well, when he was a Freshman Jason Love was playing with Josh Duncan and Brandon Cole who played about 36 minutes between them. Also in the Front Court were Doellman, Cage and DBrown. Simply put there wasnt room for Love to get many minutes.

As a soph, Love played in 37 games and started 21 of them. He played with Duncan, Brown and CJ upfront that year.

Loves stats were 6 & 6 in 18 minutes, shooting 56% from the field. Solid.

Really not too hard to see that Love wasnt needed as a Freshman which is why he didnt play much.

The difference with Love's situation and what we have THIS Year is that there is an absolute NEED this year for some front court minutes. I'm simply wondering if we've seen what we need to see from Ciani and maybe Nzeh should get a look now.

My point about Love had less to do with his lack of PT early on and more to do with him being an "unathletic" big who didn't blow the doors off anyone early in his career (even his jr year really) but improving each year and becoming a really good player later in his career.

Regardless of the reason for playing this early, I see no reason Ciani couldn't make incremental gains each year such as Love. You seemed to dismiss him as being what his is and he will never be anymore, despite him being a true frosh. I just don't really get that.

Everyone kind of acts like because we aren't very good, it can't get any worse, but it can. We could have had the doors blown off us last night. I'd rather watch us play who Miller thinks is best, while being competitive, and getting the young Euros (I think Gytis could play less and Lazar) and Green and Swain some solid experience.

I just can't help but think how much worse it could get downlow if Miller played a guy he really doesn't think is ready to play.

Chris Mack made a funny comment in the Miller podcast the other day about fans saying why doesn't a coach play this guy or that guy and he said "it's because we want to win". Now with Steele, he deserved all the questions thrown his way but I'm not going to start questioning Miller's lineup choices and who gets playing time at this point.

[MHettel]

My point about Love had less to do with his lack of PT early on and more to do with him being an "unathletic" big who didn't blow the doors off anyone early in his career (even his jr year really) but improving each year and becoming a really good player later in his career.

Regardless of the reason for playing this early, I see no reason Ciani couldn't make incremental gains each year such as Love. You seemed to dismiss him as being what his is and he will never be anymore, despite him being a true frosh. I just don't really get that.

Everyone kind of acts like because we aren't very good, it can't get any worse, but it can. We could have had the doors blown off us last night. I'd rather watch us play who Miller thinks is best, while being competitive, and getting the young Euros (I think Gytis could play less and Lazar) and Green and Swain some solid experience.

I just can't help but think how much worse it could get downlow if Miller played a guy he really doesn't think is ready to play.

Chris Mack made a funny comment in the Miller podcast the other day about fans saying why doesn't a coach play this guy or that guy and he said "it's because we want to win". Now with Steele, he deserved all the questions thrown his way but I'm not going to start questioning Miller's lineup choices and who gets playing time at this point.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Ciani at all. i think he can be a Sean O'Mara type backup center. And I realize that he can get better. But he wont be getting more athleticism anytime soon. And positioning is usually more instinct than anything else. Skill wise, I suppose he has ALOT of room for improvement for this post offense, but frankly its been very ugly and I dont recall many guys with ZERO MOVES and ZERO TOUCH suddenly becoming a bucket getter at this level. I mentioned Tyrique earlier. That dude had no touch at all. But would dunk it on your head. Same with Jalen. Very unskilled offensively but had elite athletisicm and a mean streak. Even Abou kind of tis somewhere in between Tyrique and Jalen. he has one move, but is strong enough to get it up to the rim.

The reality, though, is that Ciani has been terrible. And if he played for Dayton and their fans were saying "hey, you just wait!", we'd be having a real belly laugh.

[Xville]

Starting lineup was Cage (SF), Doellman (PF), and Duncan (C). 3 productive players that combined for 77 minutes a game. That basically means 2 of them were out there at any given time.

Cole subbed in at the 5 for 17 minutes a game. Duncan could rest, or swing to 4 for a minute or 2.

Brown subbed in at 3/4 for 17 minutes a game. Doellman and Cage could rest, or switch spots or whatever.

No room for Love.

Duncan may have been a natural 4, but he played most of his minutes at the 5 that year. And the reason was NOT because Love wasnt ready. the reason was becasue those were our 3 best frontcourt players and miller was willing to play a guy out of position to get them all on the court together.

Also on that team were Lavender, Hammer and BJ. Thats another 76 minutes combined right there.

OUT OF NEED, Johnny Wolf was the backup PG, getting 9 minutes a game.

So out of NEED, we played Wolf on this loaded squad that lacked a backup ball handler. And due to a lack of need, Love had a very limited role.

By the way, Duncan missed 4 consecutive games in late Jan / early Feb. Love played in 3 of those games, and Love played 32 minutes, and went 3-5 from the field with 8 rebounds, and 3 blocks. 0-4 from the line, but at least he got to the line.... The 4th game was a road loss AT Dusquesne in a track meet 93-91 (not really a good fit for Love's game...)

Everyone and his brother said love wasn’t ready. Hell even miller talked about it in the podcast.

What really bothers me is you insisting that you know ciani’s upside. That’s ridiculous. He’s a freshman. Up until Steele, x has decades of evidence of development especially with bigs. Love was a great example of that. You’re trying to rewrite history with love and it’s just not true.

Take another one—Farr. We all know what happened there as well.

[MHettel]

Everyone and his brother said love wasn’t ready. Hell even miller talked about it in the podcast.

What really bothers me is you insisting that you know ciani’s upside. That’s ridiculous. He’s a freshman. Up until Steele, x has decades of evidence of development especially with bigs. Love was a great example of that. You’re trying to rewrite history with love and it’s just not true.

Take another one—Farr. We all know what happened there as well.

Actually, no. Please tell me what happened with farr.

I'd love to hear your version. I certainly have mine.

And while we are at it, please share you view on Ciani's upside.

[Xville]

Actually, no. Please tell me what happened with farr.

I'd love to hear your version. I certainly have mine.

And while we are at it, please share you view on Ciani's upside.

Farr completely changed his game. Any Xavier fan knows that. By his senior year, he was close to a double double average and a defensive force. Nothing in his game the first two years predicted that.

I don’t know Ciani’s upside definitively like you think you do. Just like no one knew what Farr would become, or bj Raymond or any other person that came into Xavier’s program as a freshman that wasn’t ready and developed into a good player and/or star


What I do know is that miller knows more about basketball than all of us on the board combined and so I’m not going to question him picking Ciani over nzeh. If it was Steele, I’d say it would be fair game.

I also think it’s ridiculous to act like this season is over and let’s just see what we have. We have 18 more games minimum, season is a lifetime and we have seen runs from Xavier teams in our past. The Steele years have fucked some of the people on this boards’ memories.

[MHettel]

Farr completely changed his game. Any Xavier fan knows that.

I don’t know Ciani’s upside definitively like you think you do. Just like know one knew what Farr would become, or bj Raymond or any other person that came into Xavier’s program as a freshman that wasn’t ready and developed into a good player and/or star

Just what I figured. The old "Farr changed his game" response. That requires absolutely ZERO critical thinking. In fact, is that even an answer?

There is a certain reality that LED to Farrs change in performance and increase to his contributions.

Farr came in as a "stretch 4" and played sparingly (42 minutes total) as a Freshman on a team with Travis Taylor, Isiah Philmore, and Jeff Robinson. Noen of those 3 guys was going to stretch the floor for us, so thats what Farr's role was to be.

In the meantime Matt Stainbrook was on that roster, but sitting as a tranfer.

So as a soph, Farr was again designated as the stretch guy playing in the frontcourt rotation with Stainbrook, Philmore, and Jalen Reynolds. Again, you need a stretch 4, and Farr was not a great option, but certainly the BEST option.

As a Junior, Stain and Jalen had entrenched roles in the interior, and Farr started 26 games, but only averaged 15.6 minutes. Farr had a little more opportunity to play closer to the basket as a Junior.

Pause: James Farr took 41% of his shots from 3 as a Freshman and Sophomore because that was his role. As a Junior, playing a little more inside, he still had that stretch role and 30% of his shots from 3.

As a Senior he took 8 3 pointers out of 264 shot attempts. Did he "transform his game?". NO, not at all. He had a different role which he was much better suited for. he was ALWAYS an inside guy, forced to play out of position and in a role that didnt maximize his strengths.

He and Jalen were the inside guys when Farr was a senior. he waited 3 years for that chance and made the most of it. in 700 minutes as a senior, Farr took only 36 less shots than he did in his prior 3 years which included 1040 minutes played.

And by the way, Farr led the team in rebounds per minute ALL 4 YEARS he played. But as a senior, while he was near the basket, he had a 98% increase in his offensive rebounds from the prior year while only seeing a 21% increase in his PT. Did he transform his game to grab more OREBS, or did the coach just put him in positon to do what he was already good at?

Youre welcome.

[XUGRAD80]

2 of them are freshman and 1, while a junior in eligibility, is in his 1st year of college ball. None of them had a complete spring and summer in which to prepare for this year. They are all very raw in regards to experience and athletic training. Nor do any of us have the experience that Miller has in regards to recruiting and developing European players. At this time, I’m not going to make any judgments in regard to what any of them may turn out to be in the future. Give them all a complete off season and we may have a better indication of what they may turn into.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

2 of them are freshman and 1, while a junior in eligibility, is in his 1st year of college ball. None of them had a complete spring and summer in which to prepare for this year. They are all very raw in regards to experience and athletic training. Nor do any of us have the experience that Miller has in regards to recruiting and developing European players. At this time, I’m not going to make any judgments in regard to what any of them may turn out to be in the future. Give them all a complete off season and we may have a better indication of what they may turn into.

And that, for me, is a wrap on this thread.

[Xville]

Just what I figured. The old "Farr changed his game" response. That requires absolutely ZERO critical thinking. In fact, is that even an answer?

There is a certain reality that LED to Farrs change in performance and increase to his contributions.

Farr came in as a "stretch 4" and played sparingly (42 minutes total) as a Freshman on a team with Travis Taylor, Isiah Philmore, and Jeff Robinson. Noen of those 3 guys was going to stretch the floor for us, so thats what Farr's role was to be.

In the meantime Matt Stainbrook was on that roster, but sitting as a tranfer.

So as a soph, Farr was again designated as the stretch guy playing in the frontcourt rotation with Stainbrook, Philmore, and Jalen Reynolds. Again, you need a stretch 4, and Farr was not a great option, but certainly the BEST option.

As a Junior, Stain and Jalen had entrenched roles in the interior, and Farr started 26 games, but only averaged 15.6 minutes. Farr had a little more opportunity to play closer to the basket as a Junior.

Pause: James Farr took 41% of his shots from 3 as a Freshman and Sophomore because that was his role. As a Junior, playing a little more inside, he still had that stretch role and 30% of his shots from 3.

As a Senior he took 8 3 pointers out of 264 shot attempts. Did he "transform his game?". NO, not at all. He had a different role which he was much better suited for. he was ALWAYS an inside guy, forced to play out of position and in a role that didnt maximize his strengths.

He and Jalen were the inside guys when Farr was a senior. he waited 3 years for that chance and made the most of it. in 700 minutes as a senior, Farr took only 36 less shots than he did in his prior 3 years which included 1040 minutes played.

And by the way, Farr led the team in rebounds per minute ALL 4 YEARS he played. But as a senior, while he was near the basket, he had a 98% increase in his offensive rebounds from the prior year while only seeing a 21% increase in his PT. Did he transform his game to grab more OREBS, or did the coach just put him in positon to do what he was already good at?

Youre welcome.

You’re wrong on most of this but ok. I’ll go with what the coaches said, and what he did after college which was go back to being a stretch 4. He was never recruited to be a banger. That’s not who he was. I’ll leave it at that and let Shannon do the rest of the talking: “ remade his game”

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/xaviersports/2016/04/05/xaviers-farr-looking-shot-pros/82652516/

I guess you are right with your rewriting of history and numbers, while Shannon who was with the team on almost a daily basis just made things up.

You lost a lot of credibility when speaking about Ciani and saying you already know his upside. That’s such an absurd statement. I guess you just knew that senior year Farr would be an absolute force inside after 15 games his freshman year.

[Xville]

2 of them are freshman and 1, while a junior in eligibility, is in his 1st year of college ball. None of them had a complete spring and summer in which to prepare for this year. They are all very raw in regards to experience and athletic training. Nor do any of us have the experience that Miller has in regards to recruiting and developing European players. At this time, I’m not going to make any judgments in regard to what any of them may turn out to be in the future. Give them all a complete off season and we may have a better indication of what they may turn into.

Yep good with this.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't know where else to put this ands since Jalen came up in a post it jogged my memory and figured here is as good a place as any.

My much younger brother had 2 nights out recently (one in Phoenix, he lives in Scottsdale, and one in LA) with the NY Knicks. He is friends with a player on their team and went out with him and many of the other guys on the team. He was talking to the Nova guys on the Knicks (Brunson, Divencenzo, and I think Archidiancono (don't think Hart was present for this convo)) and told them he was an X fan and said he was curious who they regarded as the toughest player to guard at X during their time at Nova.

I found the answer fascinating. Two of them (can't remember which two) said Jalen Reynolds. Now none of them would have been the ones guarding him so I especially found it interesting they named him. I'll have to go back and look at Jalen's stats against Nova, maybe he had some big games. The other one said Trevon which makes sense.

Anyway thought that was a fun little story to share.

[xudash]

I don't know where else to put this ands since Jalen came up in a post it jogged my memory and figured here is as good a place as any.

My much younger brother had 2 nights out recently (one in Phoenix, he lives in Scottsdale, and one in LA) with the NY Knicks. He is friends with a player on their team and went out with him and many of the other guys on the team. He was talking to the Nova guys on the Knicks (Brunson, Divencenzo, and I think Archidiancono (don't think Hart was present for this convo)) and told them he was an X fan and said he was curious who they regarded as the toughest player to guard at X during their time at Nova.

I found the answer fascinating. Two of them (can't remember which two) said Jalen Reynolds. Now none of them would have been the ones guarding him so I especially found it interesting they named him. I'll have to go back and look at Jalen's stats against Nova, maybe he had some big games. The other one said Trevon which makes sense.

Anyway thought that was a fun little story to share.

Thanks for sharing! Good stuff.

[bleedXblue]

2 of them are freshman and 1, while a junior in eligibility, is in his 1st year of college ball. None of them had a complete spring and summer in which to prepare for this year. They are all very raw in regards to experience and athletic training. Nor do any of us have the experience that Miller has in regards to recruiting and developing European players. At this time, I’m not going to make any judgments in regard to what any of them may turn out to be in the future. Give them all a complete off season and we may have a better indication of what they may turn into.

Yeah sort of get it, but usually you can see something in their games that jumps out at you whether its athleticism, how well they move, defend, shooting touch etc. I don't really see anything in Gytis and Ciani that jumps out. Lazar I see a little more, but not much. A few flashes to this point.

[paulxu]

Jalen had a good game in '16 when we beat #1 Nova.
He also had 17 technicals at Xavier, which may be some sort of record :)

[webxu]

Well, when he was a Freshman Jason Love was playing with Josh Duncan and Brandon Cole who played about 36 minutes between them. Also in the Front Court were Doellman, Cage and DBrown. Simply put there wasnt room for Love to get many minutes.

As a soph, Love played in 37 games and started 21 of them. He played with Duncan, Brown and CJ upfront that year.

Loves stats were 6 & 6 in 18 minutes, shooting 56% from the field. Solid.

Really not too hard to see that Love wasnt needed as a Freshman which is why he didnt play much.

The difference with Love's situation and what we have THIS Year is that there is an absolute NEED this year for some front court minutes. I'm simply wondering if we've seen what we need to see from Ciani and maybe Nzeh should get a look now.

I would argue that is Sasha was playing in the A10 he would average 6 and 6..

[JTG]

Look, if the Euros are no better next Nov-Dec, then there is some validity to Hett's point. Except for Boum the five guys last year had an entire season and post season together. This years team is like 5 guys off the street. No body has played with each other before. giving up on the season with 18 games left is idiotic. Playing for the future is for losers, and after the previous coach, I don't want to deal with anymore losing. It's really odd that this mostly started after we came within 2 failed shots of a major upset. I thought the team showed some real progress on defense. One question I have is who is in charge of the Bigs ?

[Xville]

Look, if the Euros are no better next Nov-Dec, then there is some validity to Hett's point. Except for Boum the five guys last year had an entire season and post season together. This years team is like 5 guys off the street. No body has played with each other before. giving up on the season with 18 games left is idiotic. Playing for the future is for losers, and after the previous coach, I don't want to deal with anymore losing. It's really odd that this mostly started after we came within 2 failed shots of a major upset. I thought the team showed some real progress on defense. One question I have is who is in charge of the Bigs ?

Amen.

What’s frustrating to me is all the constant handwringing on here this season. And it’s been about everything. The euros, nil, miller, Cintas, Claude just about everything with the program. I get it, hell I was one of if not the most handwringing person when Steele was coach but geezus this is miller.

I have seen quite a bit of growth from November/ December and yeah there is still much work to be done but I see promise.

[bleedXblue]

Amen.

What’s frustrating to me is all the constant handwringing on here this season. And it’s been about everything. The euros, nil, miller, Cintas, Claude just about everything with the program. I get it, hell I was one of if not the most handwringing person when Steele was coach but geezus this is miller.

I have seen quite a bit of growth from November/ December and yeah there is still much work to be done but I see promise.

Isnt this what happens when any program is losing more than they are used to?

[GoMuskies]

It's really odd that this mostly started after we came within 2 failed shots of a major upset.

I'm not sure why that's odd. That happened despite a statistically woeful effort from those three guys. The question is why they are getting so many minutes. Obviously some portion of them have to get some minutes, but it's become pretty clear to me that Claude, Green, Swain, Ousmane, McKnight and Olivari should get as many minutes as possible, and the other three should play as few minutes as we can get away with.

[bleedXblue]

i'm not sure why that's odd. That happened despite a statistically woeful effort from those three guys. The question is why they are getting so many minutes. Obviously some portion of them have to get some minutes, but it's become pretty clear to me that claude, green, swain, ousmane, mcknight and olivari should get as many minutes as possible, and the other three should play as few minutes as we can get away with.

bingo

[XUGRAD80]

I'm not sure why that's odd. That happened despite a statistically woeful effort from those three guys. The question is why they are getting so many minutes. Obviously some portion of them have to get some minutes, but it's become pretty clear to me that Claude, Green, Swain, Ousmane, McKnight and Olivari should get as many minutes as possible, and the other three should play as few minutes as we can get away with.

Swain and Green combined played 33 minutes. The 3 Euros combined played 39 minutes. If X is going to depend on those players for future seasons then they must get SOME playing time now, right? The only way to gain experience is to play.

On the other hand, many have said that X ran out of gas last year because they didn’t have a deep bench and players got worn down by the end of the season. I think that there was some validity to that too.

So right there are a couple of reasons to play those players…..so they can gain experience and so they can help to keep the other players fresh.

[UCGRAD4X]

Amen.

What’s frustrating to me is all the constant handwringing on here this season. And it’s been about everything. The euros, nil, miller, Cintas, Claude just about everything with the program. I get it, hell I was one of if not the most handwringing person when Steele was coach but geezus this is miller.

I have seen quite a bit of growth from November/ December and yeah there is still much work to be done but I see promise.

Losing sucks!

Especially when you have had (until recently) long record of winning! (cue Charlie Sheen)

[xudash]

Sean made it clear late last summer that the team we see in March will be a whole lot different than the one rolled out at the beginning of the season.

A sophomore stud with a little too much placed on his shoulders (no fault; out of pure necessity), transfers and Euro's, all with no playing experience together.

Losing to Nova - again - at the ski lodge - was the pits. But we came within two misses of beating them. Yep, I'm going to take a partial moral victory lap on this one. Why? We went from playing a mid-major at the Cintas Center with the Townsend kid burning us for 28 (?) points by himself to not allowing Nova a bucket in the last 10 minutes or something? Eric Dixon's only joy was in winning the game, because he was otherwise sufficiently managed.

Thank God Sean Miller came back to Victory Parkway. Making the post-season this season - making the NCAAT this year may already be wishful thinking, but I'm actually enjoying watching these guys get better COLLECTIVELY.

And great point about how the Euro's deserve some development time.

[xavierj]

Having to count in freshman is tough, having to count on two of those freshman arriving in the states in late August, early September is even tougher. College basketball is old right now due to the COVID year and that makes it tougher. Lazar was one of the top European players to watch from some articles I saw and one listed like 8 or 9 guys and they are all struggling. UCLA has 4 that are all struggling, Arizona has one as well that is struggling. I doubt ucla and Arizona are giving up on their European freshman.

It usually takes guys from Europe a year to develop due to that have to get used to a completely different style of play. I think a year in the weight room and getting comfortable with the game and communication of a different language will lead to more confidence and better production. Lazar plays because prior to his injury he was said to be the 2nd best player in practice. The coaches usually play guys on how they practice. Lazar has talent, he will be fine down the road. You don’t give up on freshman after 14 games. Lazar due to injury has only played 11.

[xukeith]

Having to count in freshman is tough, having to count on two of those freshman arriving in the states in late August, early September is even tougher. College basketball is old right now due to the COVID year and that makes it tougher. Lazar was one of the top European players to watch from some articles I saw and one listed like 8 or 9 guys and they are all struggling. UCLA has 4 that are all struggling, Arizona has one as well that is struggling. I doubt ucla and Arizona are giving up on their European freshman.

It usually takes guys from Europe a year to develop due to that have to get used to a completely different style of play. I think a year in the weight room and getting comfortable with the game and communication of a different language will lead to more confidence and better production. Lazar plays because prior to his injury he was said to be the 2nd best player in practice. The coaches usually play guys on how they practice. Lazar has talent, he will be fine down the road. You don’t give up on freshman after 14 games. Lazar due to injury has only played 11.

Ciani is no skinny guy but he is weak, Maybe he needs to add muscle and practice post moves. Or maybe he needs 2 years until he is ready to be consistent and be a good rebounder/defender.

[X-band '01]

Having to count in freshman is tough, having to count on two of those freshman arriving in the states in late August, early September is even tougher. College basketball is old right now due to the COVID year and that makes it tougher. Lazar was one of the top European players to watch from some articles I saw and one listed like 8 or 9 guys and they are all struggling. UCLA has 4 that are all struggling, Arizona has one as well that is struggling. I doubt ucla and Arizona are giving up on their European freshman.

It usually takes guys from Europe a year to develop due to that have to get used to a completely different style of play. I think a year in the weight room and getting comfortable with the game and communication of a different language will lead to more confidence and better production. Lazar plays because prior to his injury he was said to be the 2nd best player in practice. The coaches usually play guys on how they practice. Lazar has talent, he will be fine down the road. You don’t give up on freshman after 14 games. Lazar due to injury has only played 11.

What's funny is that the B1G is only going to get tougher for Cronin and his players next season. At least he can go home crying to Daddy, though.

[GoMuskies]

Coming back to this, it's huge that Gytis has stepped up his game of late. And I also don't think it's a coincidence that we're playing better now that Lazar has disappeared and Ciani is playing less.

[noteggs]

Just might be my wishful thinking, but wonder if some of Gytis’ improvements are from banging with Jerome in practice vs Lazar? Know Jerome was cleared for contact a couple weeks back.

[Xavier]

Coming back to this, it's huge that Gytis has stepped up his game of late. And I also don't think it's a coincidence that we're playing better now that Lazar has disappeared and Ciani is playing less.

I think it has more to do with Swain. Him being a solid defender (help defender, too) has changed the rotations from essentially two bigs to one big.

[GoMuskies]

Yes, of course it has to do with Swain. Swain is better than Lazar. If Lazar plays less, someone else has to play more, and that person is Swain.

[Xavier]

Gotchya. I thought you were giving Gytis credit for keeping lazar on the bench when it has more to do with Swain.

[X-band '01]

Lazar hasn't even sniffed the court for the past 2 games in the 2nd half.

[MHettel]

Time for an update on the Euro's in BE play. I'm only now realizing that i started this thread after only 3 BE games. I had concerns pretty early, obviously and was hopefull that we'd see an up tick in productivity once we get deeper into the BE schedule.

So after 13 games, this is the "combined" statistical performance of the 3 Euros.

41.0 minutes a game, so basically one of these guys is out there at all times. They combine for 20% of all available minutes.

2.9 made Field Goals on 8.8 Attempts (33.3%)
2.4 made 2s on 6.2 attempts (38.3%)
.5 made 3s on 2.5 attempts (21.2%)
.8 made FTs on 1.4 attempts (55.6%)
PPG is 7.2, which scaled back to 30 minutes would be 5.4.

Pause- offensively, this is offensive.

Orebs- 4.3 per 41 min (decent)
Drebs- 5.7 per 41 min (decent)
TReb- 10 per 41 min (decent)

So 10 rebs in 41 minutes would translate to around 7.5 rebs for a guy that plays 30 minutes. These guys play exclusively 4/5, so the rebounding production is solid

other per 41 minute averages:
Asst- 2.4
Stl- .4
Blk- .85
TOs- 1.9
Fouls- 4.4

Again, scale these back for comparison purposes to a player that plays 30 minutes and you get: 1.8 apg, .3 spg, .6 bpg, 1.4 TOs, 3.3 Fouls.

These "other stats" are not eyebrow raising to me. We've seen alot of our big guys average less than 2 assists. The steals and blocks are on the low end. the TOs maybe a tad high given their low offensive useage. The fouls are a little high.

The big issue to me is scoring, obviously. Lets just imagine if they shot just 50% from 2, which is kinda low for a big man inside. Thats and additional 9.5 baskets in conference play.....19 points. Now lets say they hit just 33% of their 3s....thats 4 more buckets / 12 more points. now lets imagin they can actually GET to the FT line just FOUR times a game instead of 1.3, and hit 66%, NEITHER of which is improessive. Well, that good for an additional 24 points.

So, if they could just give us what would be considered average offensive production for a big man, we have scored 55 more points in conference play. Thats 4.2 PPG.

First Nova game was a 1 pt loss. 1st Uconn game was 5 pt loss. 1st Creighton game was 7 pt loss. Maybe we steal 2 of those gamnes with some more production from these guys.

And maybe that second Uconn game we manage to keep within 40.....

Anyway, these guys are killing us. need more, efficient offense immediately from these guys