Game Thread: Xavier v St John's (12/20/2023)

[paulxu]

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/2a1f45a0-e1cc-4202-89d7-1b7b5c27f309_1.3c18d8e111cdcd7e8a271effb6000907.jp eg?odnHeight=612&odnWidth=612&odnBg=FFFFFFVS.https://bkstr.scene7.com/is/image/Bkstr/065-PLUSH-65-8-Red?$HomePageRecs_ET$
CINCINNATI --- The Xavier University Musketeers, 6-5, visit the St. John's University Red Storm, 7-3, to open BIG EAST Conference play on Wednesday. Xavier is 8-2 in BIG EAST Conference openers, including wins in three straight years and in six of its last seven BIG EAST openers.

Xavier is coming off a 75-59 win over Winthrop on Saturday, XU's second-straight victory.

Graduate student Quincy Olivari was named to the BIG EAST Conference Honor Roll for the second-straight week for his game-high 22-point effort vs. Winthrop. Olivari also earned the honor Dec. 11 after averaging 30.5 points while making 61.1 percent (11-18) from 3-point range in games vs. Delaware on Dec. 5 and Cincinnati on Dec. 9. Olivari, who has averaged 25.0 ppg. over the last four games, leads the team in scoring and is fourth in the BIG EAST Conference at 17.6 ppg.

Xavier head coach Sean Miller has not faced off against St. John's head coach Rick Pitino on the court when both have been head coaches. But they did coach against each other in 2004 when Pitino was the head coach at Louisville and Miller was the Xavier associate head coach under
Thad Matta (now head coach at Butler). Xavier defeated Pitino's 2004 UL team 80-70 in the first round of the 2004 NCAA Tournament and went on to capture XU's first-ever trip to the NCAA Elite Eight. While a player at Pitt, Miller won vs. Kentucky and UK head coach Rick Pitino at UK in Miller's senior year, 1991-92.

THE MATCHUP

XAVIER UNIVERSITY MUSKETEERS (6-5, 0-0 BIG EAST)
ST. JOHN'S UNIVERSITY RED STORM (7-3, 0-0 BIG EAST)
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 20, 2023 AT 7 P.M. ET
AT CARNESECCA ARENA IN QUEENS, N.Y.

TV, RADIO AND LIVE STATS

Television: FS1 with play-by-play from Alex Faust and analysis from Jim Spanarkel.
Xavier Radio: 700 WLW with play-by-play from Xavier Hall of Famer Joe Sunderman ('79) and analysis from XU all-time leading scorer and Hall of Famer Byron Larkin ('88). XU broadcast is also on the Varsity Network and on SXM.

Live Stats: Media stats at Statbroadcast.com (http://Statbroadcast.com) and fan stats at GoXavier.com (http://GoXavier.com)

[drudy23]

Win please.

Let's get off to a great Big East start. Stay relevant in the top quarter of this league and we have a shot at making the tourney. A slow start will make that near impossible.

[xukeith]

Is SJU better or worse than UC?

[Xville]

Is SJU better or worse than UC?

Common opponent Dayton they both lost to pretty easily. I think sju is better than uc just because of Soriano but not much better. Neither are making the tourney

[MuskieDad]

Will be going tomorrow night with my son who is a senior at XU. Hope we have a decent showing!

[paulxu]

Bring back a winner !

[Xavier]

It’s a big game in terms of seeing what the season is going to become. I still think X needs to win 13 Big East games. Certainly not an easy task, but @St. John’s is one you have to get if you want to get to 13.

[Xville]

X +3.5. Opportunity to bet on the moneyline. I like it

[xukeith]

Interesting pregame press conference with Pitino. Has some good things to say about Xavier and Miller's style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a_m0-Usy88

[Xville]

Now x + 6.5 yikes

[American X]

Will be going tomorrow night with my son who is a senior at XU. Hope we have a decent showing!

Nice first post (after lurking since Feb 2021). I hope you get better than a decent showing and get a win.

[GIMMFD]

Now x + 6.5 yikes

I hit ML for +195, it's the hope that kills you. I think either getting Soriano in foul trouble or just limiting the damage he causes will be key, he is prone to getting in foul trouble, so that's good, I just hope Ousmane, Lazar, and company are up to the task. Also need Olivari to continue to play at a high level and get buckets, since we don't have that killer that we used to in the past. I think we pull out a gritty win on the road here.

[Xville]

I hit ML for +195, it's the hope that kills you. I think either getting Soriano in foul trouble or just limiting the damage he causes will be key, he is prone to getting in foul trouble, so that's good, I just hope Ousmane, Lazar, and company are up to the task. Also need Olivari to continue to play at a high level and get buckets, since we don't have that killer that we used to in the past. I think we pull out a gritty win on the road here.

Yeah I got it at 210. I’m thinking and hoping that the Purdue, Washington and st Mary’s games prepared them for this game on the road. Soriano is talented but the rest is very average. If x plays their b to b + game, they should win. We shall see!

[Xville]

That jersey color is hideous

[Xville]

Djokovic is a horrible defender at this stage of his career. Geesh.

Bad start. Just need to calm down

[noteggs]

Stating the obvious, not a great start.

[Xville]

Trey!!

[Xville]

Alrighty looks like x has settled in. Limit the turnovers from here on and come home with the w

[Xville]

Stop turning the effing ball over

[GIMMFD]

That jersey color is hideous

I agree, I hate these colorways with a passion...

Watching the amount of turnovers this team commits makes me want to pull my hair out, it's so frustrating at times watching them just give away possessions. Clean it up boys, they're not that good.

[Xville]

Would it kill ousmane to not shoot the ball every time he touches it? Pass the ball back out every once in a while?

St. John’s is not good.

[noteggs]

Not a great time to have Quincy play…well we know

[xukeith]

Seems like X has played a lot of bench(frosh) player minutes....

[T 4D]

There must be hundreds of 1 star 6-9 250 recruits, FIND one!

[GIMMFD]

I don't really trust us to be down at the half and come back with this offense we have, so it's imperative we keep it within double-digits, goodness we need to tighten up.

[Xville]

Stop turning the ball over and pass quicker to beat the pressure.

Also, please retire the jerseys and pick up a beefy forward from the stands

[noteggs]

Agree with Ville, St John’s is not good, we are not that great as well. Yet?

[Xville]

Free throw defense has been spectacular

[GIMMFD]

Free throw defense has been spectacular

Usually it's the opposite teams against us with the impeccable free throw defense...

[T 4D]

…..not one effin muscle in his body.

[bjf123]

How was that not a foul on Soriano!


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[X-band '01]

How was that not a foul on Soriano!


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He was just welcoming Sasa Ciani to the Big East. A true baptism in the lane.

[Xville]

Captain obvious but x has to get tougher in the post. It’s embarrassing at this point

[bjf123]

He was just welcoming Sasa Ciani to the Big East. A true baptism in the lane.

Still should have been a foul. Even the TV guys thought so.


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[X-band '01]

I don't really trust us to be down at the half and come back with this offense we have, so it's imperative we keep it within double-digits, goodness we need to tighten up.

Good news is that X is within single digits, but the Johnnies started pulling away in the last minute.

[Xville]

St John’s shooting above their average but not sure if it’s “luck” or just really bad d

[GIMMFD]

Good news is that X is within single digits, but the Johnnies started pulling away in the last minute.

Yeah, hated those two easy looks at the bucket for St. John's to close out the last minute, the last bucket was a great shot, can't really say much there, I was hoping in the 5-6 range, but 8 is fine if we can actually start a half without 15 turnovers and clean things up. This is a very winnable game.

[noteggs]

Obviously not a great half, but this is what I expected from D Claude. Solid half from the young man.

[Xville]

Claude with a hell of a half 14 and 7. Gotta get olivari some looks from deep, play tighter d and secure the ball.

[MHettel]

I will never understand how a team that just plays straight up defense with very little ball pressure can commit more fouls than a team that slaps at everything the entire game. The refs are chickenshit and swallow their whistle.

[xukeith]

X post players struggle. Not sure how 3 euros and Ousmane get to be better, stronger post players this season.

[Xville]

Alright, let’s win the first war

[Xville]

Ousmane can sit. He’s killing us right now

[GIMMFD]

Death, taxes, us to look terrible in the first war.

[Xville]

Another horrible first four minutes coming out of half. Ugh. At this point, just don’t get blown out

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

There must be hundreds of 1 star 6-9 250 recruits, FIND one!

Our bigs don't seem to belong playing in the Big East. They look totally over-matched. Completely outgunned. Seems like Miller saw the same because he started Swain in the second half.

[Xville]

Our post players are so weak. Even with free and hunter x would still get punked in the post. Really need to start developing some beef or the nil dollars need to be focused on getting some damn beef.

Pitino is a hell of a coach. One of the few times where the coach on the other sideline is better, but this St. John’s team isn’t good. Disapponting

[Xavier]

How do we always start slow in the second half. It’s killing us

[JTG]

Our post players are so weak. Even with free and hunter x would still get punked in the post. Really need to start developing some beef or the nil dollars need to be focused on getting some damn beef.

May be, but Soriano is getting away with assault.

[JTG]

I'm out, fuck this mess.

[GoMuskies]

My March is free. Nice.

[xukeith]

Our post players are so weak. Even with free and hunter x would still get punked in the post

Freemantle and Hunter would not fared well against this year's BE post players.
DePaul, Georgetown, Seton Hall may all not be better than X. The other 8 ? I can't see X winning on road vs others.

[Xville]

When you have limited post play and limited shooters that’s an issue lol

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Stayed out of this until now but those on here who hope to be a bubble team are fooling themselves. They won’t finish .500 overall or in conference. If they had a healthy Free and Hunter bubble or better was doable but not even close now.

[GIMMFD]

My March is free. Nice.

I'm really frightened for what Clingan, Kalkbrenner, and Ighodaro are going to do to us... let alone guys like Bediako, just too many deficiencies with these 10 new guys and Jerome/Free out (though don't think they could salvage this shit show)

[xuwillie]

When you have limited post play and limited shooters that’s an issue lol

Pitino’s transfers are better than Millers. Sean has to get better players simple as that

[noteggs]

Think we’re going to see a lot of zone this year

[Xville]

Pitino’s transfers are better than Millers. Sean has to get better players simple as that

But they aren’t. You put Soriano on x and x is a tourney team easily. I have watched a lot of St. John’s early this year and They aren’t very good outside of him. He’s a difference maker

[xuwillie]

But they aren’t. You put Soriano on x and x is a tourney team easily. I have watched a lot of St. John’s early this year and They aren’t very good outside of him. He’s a difference maker

But who’s really big east caliber good that Sean brought in?

[Xville]

But who’s really big east caliber good that Sean brought in?

I think McKnight and olivari are but they are very limited due to having zero post presence or a 4 that can keep defenses honest. Ike would have helped a ton.

I agree Sean has to get better players but I think that’s the post, not the back court imo

[bobbiemcgee]

Looks like a loooooong year

[Wiggy1227]

I don’t ever comment just read. But curious why you all are giving miller a free pass. This is atrocious. You guys would be ripping Travis a new one.
I get Hunter and free out. But miller recruited this group. Quincy has 5 shots. If coach can’t find a way to get him the ball that’s a problem. Our bigs are just yuck. Really was excited for miller hiring but x has taken a huge step back.

[XUBison]

Wow. We blow.

[Xville]

St John’s have shot out of their minds tonight

[Xavier]

I don’t ever comment just read. But curious why you all are giving miller a free pass. This is atrocious. You guys would be ripping Travis a new one.
I get Hunter and free out. But miller recruited this group. Quincy has 5 shots. If coach can’t find a way to get him the ball that’s a problem. Our bigs are just yuck. Really was excited for miller hiring but x has taken a huge step back.

Classic troll post. When X is making sweet 16s it’s considered a step back then you legit have way too high of expectations.

[Xville]

I don’t ever comment just read. But curious why you all are giving miller a free pass. This is atrocious. You guys would be ripping Travis a new one.
I get Hunter and free out. But miller recruited this group. Quincy has 5 shots. If coach can’t find a way to get him the ball that’s a problem. Our bigs are just yuck. Really was excited for miller hiring but x has taken a huge step back.

Because miller has a track record. Steele’s track record is losing

[Xville]

Just to illustrate how hard it is to win on the road. Seton hall is smoking UConn as bad as St. John’s is to x

[Wiggy1227]

Wrong. Been an x fan for over 30 years. Legit question.

[T 4D]

Pitino’s transfers are better than Millers. Sean has to get better players simple as that

Would have been much better off with a couple 6-10 225+ juco guys….

[Xavier]

Just to illustrate how hard it is to win on the road. Seton hall is smoking UConn as bad as St. John’s is to x

In all honesty, that plus the Marquette loss last night just gives me less confidence in getting the road wins we need. And now obviously the thrashing tonight.

[X-band '01]

Then share us your favorite moment over the past 30 years. You can even mention your favorite Jimmy Binnie moment if you like.

[Wiggy1227]

Then share us your favorite moment over the past 30 years. You can even mention your favorite Jimmy Binnie moment if you like.
David west. Any game. Name one. Loved that dude. Also loved posey whipping temple with dickie v on the call

[KabeX]

Well that was fugly. Turnovers. 19% from 3 (when, oh when will that change ... CONSISTENTLY?). Just slower dudes and if they don't shoot it well you get what we got tonight.. Fugly. Need some athletes. On a positive note - FTs have improved and we outrebounded them (ostensibly because most of their shots were going in). Yep, gonna be a long year.

[Xville]

In all honesty, that plus the Marquette loss last night just gives me less confidence in getting the road wins we need. And now obviously the thrashing tonight.

Yeah I’m with ya there. Not sure how many road games this team can win. Just hoping for a better showing on Saturday at this point. I’ll be in the house for that one and will try to bring x a victory.

[MHettel]

Guess St. Johns didnt get the memo that it was going to take a few months for all these new guys to gel.....

.....or it doesn't really, but we wanted to start making excuses before the season tipped off.

[Xville]

I’m trying to figure out what any of the euros do well.

[xukeith]

I am sure Pitino is quite upset that Seton Hall just stomped UConn.
Next UConn welcomes SJU at UConn.

Can X beat Seton Hall?

[xuwillie]

I’m trying to figure out what any of the euros do well.

This is surprising most to me. They are soft and really not good at anything.

[Xville]

I am sure Pitino is quite upset that Seton Hall just stomped UConn.
Next UConn welcomes SJU at UConn.

Can X beat Seton Hall?

Going to see how x looks at home in conference before pushing the panic button but tonight was concerning. Can we get a mid season transfer :)

[Xville]

This is surprising most to me. They are soft and really not good at anything.

Yeah that’s what’s disappointing to me as well. Especially Djokovic. People were hyping that guy to be some kind of stuff. He couldn’t guard most of us, and his offensive game is very limited at this point.

[drudy23]

Sigh...

We're just not good.

Still not sure we have the talent to compete in the Big East. We also are not tearing up the recruiting trail.

I'm back to being concerned about the talent lol

12-13 wins in conference? 6 may be our ceiling.

[A Fan]

Going to see how x looks at home in conference before pushing the panic button but tonight was concerning. Can we get a mid season transfer :)

Sage Advice. We saw a different team against UC …not that UC was great. We have to win our home games because we aren’t going to win on the road.

[drudy23]

Sage Advice. We saw a different team against UC …not that UC was great. We have to win our home games because we aren’t going to win on the road.

We're going to lose alot of Big East games. Regardless of how we spin it, I think we all know that.

Outside of DePaul, we may have the worst talent in the league.

We need to raise the recruiting profile. Call it panic, but our comparative talent watching these Big East games is concerning.

[SkyWalker]

I’m trying to figure out what any of the euros do well.

This!

[XUBison]

I’m trying to figure out what any of the euros do well.

The Euros seem to personify the notion of throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks.

[noteggs]

I just want to see the improvement. Tonight not so much.

[OTRMUSKIE]

I def thought the Miller effect would allow X to win 20. Not happening this year. This team would have been so much better with Free and Hunter . We knew we would struggle this year and they are. Pretty sure Miller Euros at Zona were never world beaters either , am I wrong on that? I still trust Miller and hopefully this will be his last bad year. 5/6 years we won’t make the dance feels way too much like VD and we can never stoop to that level.

[XUBison]

We have to win our home games because we aren’t going to win on the road.

Then what happens?

[drudy23]

Pretty sure Miller Euros at Zona were never world beaters either , am I wrong on that?

You are very wrong on that.

Lauri Markkanen - NBA
Ben Mathurin - NBA
Kerr Kriisa
Deandre Ayton - NBA
Christian Koloko
Daniel Batcho

The current AZ team has several very good foreign players and they are the number 4 team in the country. AZ was and still remains the top landing spot for the best college-level foreign players.

Their current roster has EIGHT foreign players on a very good team with most of them contributing.

[Xville]

You are very wrong on that.

Lauri Markkanen - NBA
Ben Mathurin - NBA
Kerr Kriisa
Deandre Ayton - NBA
Christian Koloko
Daniel Batcho

The current AZ team has several very good foreign players and they are the number 4 team in the country. AZ was and still remains the top landing spot for the best college-level foreign players.

Their current roster has EIGHT foreign players on a very good team with most of them contributing.

Mathurin, ayton nor koloko are euros

[drudy23]

Mathurin nor ayton are euros

They're foreign. Mathurin didn't come from the typical college recruiting landscape. He played in Mexico. Exactly the type Miller looks for, Euro or not.

Ayton is Bahamian, but he did go through the typical high school ranks.

The point is, AZ was the hottest of the hot when it came to finding foreign talent, mostly BECAUSE of Miller. Still is.

I find it hard to believe they prefer the AZ co-eds to the Xavier ones.

[Xville]

They're foreign. Mathurin didn't come from the typical college recruiting landscape. He played in Mexico. Exactly the type Miller looks for, Euro or not.

Ayton is Bahamian, but he did go through the typical high school ranks.

The point is, AZ was the hottest of the hot when it came to finding foreign talent, mostly BECAUSE of Miller. Still is.

That’s fine but otr specifically said euros. Doesn’t really matter.. ayton nor mathurin type players are ever coming here

[drudy23]

I don't care where they come from, they just have to be better to compete in the Big East.

[A Fan]

Sigh...

We're just not good.

Still not sure we have the talent to compete in the Big East. We also are not tearing up the recruiting trail.

I'm back to being concerned about the talent lol

12-13 wins in conference? 6 may be our ceiling.
Does anyone have any intel/insight as to whether the other Big East teams have utilized NIL to build their rosters. When I look at the X roster I am not sure how many players might have or deserve an NIL.

[drudy23]

Does anyone have any intel/insight as to whether the other Big East teams have utilized NIL to build their rosters. When I look at the X roster I am not sure how many players might have or deserve an NIL.

It's a great question, and a huge factor in the level of talent that's going to end up at X. That's what concerns me most.

It's new day, and just like any of us when we're deciding on jobs, money matters. It's not everything, but it's important.

The recruiting noise has been non-existent, and I'm fearful this is why, and if it is, that's a scary place to be.

The era of NIL won't be kind to small private colleges in small markets. Unless you're Duke.

[A Fan]

It's a great question, and a huge factor in the level of talent that's going to end up at X. That's what concerns me most.

It's new day, and just like any of us when we're deciding on jobs, money matters. It's not everything, but it's important.

The recruiting noise has been non-existent, and I'm fearful this is why, and if it is, that's a scary place to be.

The era of NIL won't be kind to small private colleges in small markets. Unless you're Duke.

I agree. And I guess my point is we are not satisfied with our roster and are beginning to criticize Sean for not getting players comparable to the others we see in the Big East . I look at the guys Rick Pitino brought and suspect that he would not have taken the job without assurances of a well funded collective. I simply don’t know. But before I criticize Sean for this roster I would want to l know the handicaps.

[CP05XU08CU13]

I absolutely agree, Xavier’s lack of talent and depth is quite concerning. Free and Hunter would inevitably make the team better, but the drop off of talent is glaring. Matta at Butler and English at Providence seem to be doing well thus far. Both teams are 10-2. Trying to figure out how they are putting together better ball clubs than Xavier. Miller does not get a free pass in my book. Sure, last year was a solid season, but we need consistent winning seasons. There is no reason why Xavier should not be in the top 4-5 in the Big East each year. Winning breeds more winning or it should at least.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

We all should calm down. Add Hunter and Free and this team is 10-2 probably and the whole narrative is different. Yes, losing a competitor front court can kill a team. That said, they will go around 6–14 in conference. Maybe a game or so better. It sucks but you don’t lose everyone from the previous year but one and expect better.

[OTRMUSKIE]

This could be our first losing season in how many years? 1995 was our last losing season first years of A-10 and before that it was like 1981. So in 40 years we have had one losing season. And that was 28-29 years ago.

[MHettel]

We all should calm down. Add Hunter and Free and this team is 10-2 probably and the whole narrative is different. Yes, losing a competitor front court can kill a team. That said, they will go around 6–14 in conference. Maybe a game or so better. It sucks but you don’t lose everyone from the previous year but one and expect better.

Look, we'd be better if we had Hunter and Free instead of Gytis and Lazar. But we NEED Ciani. So assume we have Hunter and Free. What does that solve? Our interior defense is bad, and we cant shoot from deep. Hunter helps a little on defense. Neither guy helps with shooting. Possibly our rebounding would be a little better.

10-2? No way. Maybe avoid the Delaware loss? OK. And Oakland? OK. And SJU? possibly. AND Washington? possibly. ALL FOUR of these games? NO.

[JTG]

Did anyone else think Miller appeared uncharacteristically calm last night? Like he knew it was going to be a mess and just wanted to get it over with.

[GIMMFD]

I just want to see the improvement. Tonight not so much.

Yup, at this point I know it's a lost season, so I want to see them actually put together more palatable play throughout the rest of the year.. because last night, was not it. It's so damn mind numbing knowing we're going to start a game, or start the second half in the first 4 minutes giving up a 10-0 run every single freaking game. It'd also be nice if ANYBODY other than Olivari could find some range from deep. A lot of deficiencies, so I'm just going to try not to jump off the ledge and look for signs that things are going to be okay.

Per the NIL thing, I've been getting emails for donations, they were a short an estimated target number, so I don't really think it's flourishing here. Its tough when the alumni base isn't as robust or rich as a Texas school, and hell I'm not even talking public school, look at SMU. We'll be handicapped in that regard, and I don't think that's a Miller problem, I know it must be damn hard to navigate coaching these days. Not only are you trying to identify talent and recruit new guys, you gotta recruit the guys on your team to stay out of the portal/find them NIL opportunities. It's not an easy task by any means.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Did anyone else think Miller appeared uncharacteristically calm last night? Like he knew it was going to be a mess and just wanted to get it over with.

Early in the game, we muffed the inbounds after an SJU basket and turned it over. The camera panned to Miller and I thought right then, the look on his face said it all. If you taped the game, go back and re-view that scene. What you wrote was written all over his face.

[Xville]

Anyone hear or have the link to the post game last night? I’m interested to hear millers thoughts

[Xville]

Just to give an idea of where x’s roster is at, St. John’s played 5 seniors last night, a junior and a soph. Their mcd freshman (cj wilchers brother) either barely played or didn’t play at all.

X played 4 freshmen 15 minutes or more and a soph 35 minutes.

X got beat because it was literally men against boys.

The roster construction is just not good right now due to Steele not developing much so he had to grab transfers and hunter/free being out.

All I’m saying is, let’s stop with the judging of des and the freshmen. You wanna judge olivari, McKnight or ousmane, fine but give the others room to grow.


Btw, halls entire starting five are all seniors. Ugh

[Husman]

I always watch the coaches postgame exchange of handshakes. Last evening Miller and Pitino extended hands but seemingly blew past each other without a word making me think that there may be bad blood between them. However in one news article I read yesterday Slick Rick called Miller one of the best coaches in college basketball..

[drudy23]

I always watch the coaches postgame exchange of handshakes. Last evening Miller and Pitino extended hands but seemingly blew past each other without a word making me think that there may be bad blood between them. However in one news article I read yesterday Slick Rick called Miller one of the best coaches in college basketball..

Not sure I'd look much into that. Most coaches aren't in the talking mood after getting their butts beat.

Both Miller and Pitino have been positive towards each other, and there are pictures of them conversing at things like Big East media day. Probably a nothing burger.

[xukeith]

Ciani and Lazar are both freshmen. How could these 2 frosh improve their game and skill level?

Lazar likely will play the 3 and 4 spot but he has to be a ton stronger.

Ciaci also needs to get a ton stronger.

It might take 2 years for both to reach strength of top forwards in BE. They are way behind and it is possible that can gain muscle to be stronger.

So if both become a ton stronger, do both need to improve defensively, offensively and being leaders?

What are we placing our hopes on?

Will transfer portal for next season land X a top 10 scorer? Will X land a top center who is better than Ousmane?

[XUBison]

Just to give an idea of where x’s roster is at, St. John’s played 5 seniors last night, a junior and a soph. Their mcd freshman (cj wilchers brother) either barely played or didn’t play at all.

X played 4 freshmen 15 minutes or more and a soph 35 minutes.

X got beat because it was literally men against boys.

The roster construction is just not good right now due to Steele not developing much so he had to grab transfers and hunter/free being out.

All I’m saying is, let’s stop with the judging of des and the freshmen. You wanna judge olivari, McKnight or ousmane, fine but give the others room to grow.


Btw, halls entire starting five are all seniors. Ugh

I agree with this, especially as it pertains to Des. I mean, what were people expecting from him this year?

That said, if I had to flush out peoples concern, I think it boils down to the fact our success in the portal consisted of a bunch of C-USA players and some last-minute Euros, and whether that is a harbinger of things to come. To that effect, we have no choice but to trust in Sean and the fact the program has punched above its weight class for 40 years.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Ciani and Lazar are both freshmen. How could these 2 frosh improve their game and skill level?

Lazar likely will play the 3 and 4 spot but he has to be a ton stronger.

Ciaci also needs to get a ton stronger.

It might take 2 years for both to reach strength of top forwards in BE. They are way behind and it is possible that can gain muscle to be stronger.

So if both become a ton stronger, do both need to improve defensively, offensively and being leaders?

What are we placing our hopes on?

Will transfer portal for next season land X a top 10 scorer? Will X land a top center who is better than Ousmane?

It is clear to me that Ousmane was brought in to play behind Hunter/Freemantle. He was not brought in to start. Hunter/Free lost the year and he is not only starting, but he is also being asked to be the #1 post threat. That is a huge role change for him. Ciani/Djokovic/Nemieska came in with zero college experience. Green/Swain have no college experience. We give 5 guys with zero college experience a ton of minutes. Those 5 average around 18 mpg. Five player with no college experience playing significant minutes.

You throw in two 23 year old bigs into this mix and swap out Ciani/Djokovic and this team is just fine. Now they won't win 10 games in conference, I would guess it is close to 6.

The Euros will come around with time. I see the talent is there, but the jump to college is big for most recruits with no experience. I am not criticizing them in the least. It's a huge ask, I think they are doing the best they can with the players they have.

[Husman]

……the alumni base isn't as robust or rich as a Texas school, and hell I'm not even talking public school, look at SMU. We'll be handicapped in that regard…...

the good news is that Xavier does not have to feed N$L for 85 members of a FBS football team like most other P5 schools.

My understanding is that most Big East schools are paying $1M to $3.5M this season as opposed to $8M+ for the football factory schools.

I have doubts that N$L giving can be sustained at current levels. Consider that if a college was constructing a new building. The fat cat donor would be asked to make a six figure donation and never be asked again to donate for the project, whereas for N$L that donor is asked on an annual basis for a large donation to support their school’s N$L.

[MHettel]

It is clear to me that Ousmane was brought in to play behind Hunter/Freemantle. He was not brought in to start. Hunter/Free lost the year and he is not only starting, but he is also being asked to be the #1 post threat. That is a huge role change for him. Ciani/Djokovic/Nemieska came in with zero college experience. Green/Swain have no college experience. We give 5 guys with zero college experience a ton of minutes. Those 5 average around 18 mpg. Five player with no college experience playing significant minutes.

You throw in two 23 year old bigs into this mix and swap out Ciani/Djokovic and this team is just fine. Now they won't win 10 games in conference, I would guess it is close to 6.

The Euros will come around with time. I see the talent is there, but the jump to college is big for most recruits with no experience. I am not criticizing them in the least. It's a huge ask, I think they are doing the best they can with the players they have.

Sorry, but neither Free nor Hunter can play the 5. They could start together as 3/4, but then Claude gets displaced to the 2. Not enough shooting in that scenario.

Deep shooting and interior defense are our issues. Free and Hunter do not address that.

[Xville]

Sorry, but neither Free nor Hunter can play the 5. They could start together as 3/4, but then Claude gets displaced to the 2. Not enough shooting in that scenario.

Deep shooting and interior defense are our issues. Free and Hunter do not address that.

Hunter was by far our best post defender last year so yeah he would have helped. Also, miller instructed hunter in the summer to work on his outside shot. He was putting up 500 makes a day so again yeah he would have helped. Free would have helped tremendously on the offensive side with both stretching out the d, allowing for driving lanes and making threes here and there. To say they wouldn’t have helped is mind boggling. X probably beats Houston, makes it even closer at Purdue, beats Washington and certainly beats Oakland and Delaware.

[A Fan]

I absolutely agree, Xavier’s lack of talent and depth is quite concerning. Free and Hunter would inevitably make the team better, but the drop off of talent is glaring. Matta at Butler and English at Providence seem to be doing well thus far. Both teams are 10-2. Trying to figure out how they are putting together better ball clubs than Xavier. Miller does not get a free pass in my book. Sure, last year was a solid season, but we need consistent winning seasons. There is no reason why Xavier should not be in the top 4-5 in the Big East each year. Winning breeds more winning or it should at least.
I would say that unless one knows how much NIL money the other Big East teams are paying we have no reason to think X is going to be in the top 4- 5 in the Big East yearly. Take Claude. Say he has a good year. He tests the portal. He has NIL offers of $ 100k a year. What would you suggest X’s collective bid to keep him? Say you want the best big in the next portal. What should the collective pay to get him? I have the impression the fans know NIL’s are here but they are not wanting to make it part of the dialogue about roster construction and evaluating coaching success. If fans don’t know the financial facts about roster construction and talk like NIL’s are not a big part of the system they will just be blowing smoke.

[drudy23]

I would say that unless one knows how much NIL money the other Big East teams are paying we have no reason to think X is going to be in the top 4- 5 in the Big East yearly. Take Claude. Say he has a good year. He tests the portal. He has NIL offers of $ 100k a year. What would you suggest X’s collective bid to keep him? Say you want the best big in the next portal. What should the collective pay to get him? I have the impression the fans know NIL’s are here but they are not wanting to make it part of the dialogue about roster construction and evaluating coaching success. If fans don’t know the financial facts about roster construction and talk like NIL’s are not a big part of the system they will just be blowing smoke.

Based on what you read on the internet, it seems the "top" guys not named Lebron's son could fetch anywhere between $800k-$1M per year. Some of the best impact transfers were supposedly around $300-500k per year. Those amounts seem impossible for a school like Xavier to cover. It's tough for the school to raise a couple extra million just for a coach extension.

I would assume some of our best guys are maybe getting $50k? Maybe.

[A Fan]

Based on what you read on the internet, it seems the "top" guys not named Lebron's son could fetch anywhere between $800k-$1M per year. Some of the best impact transfers were supposedly around $300-500k per year. Those amounts seem impossible for a school like Xavier to cover. It's tough for the school to raise a couple extra million just for a coach extension.

I would assume some of our best guys are maybe getting $50k? Maybe.
That is really interesting. I can’t say I am surprised . Do you think the Xavier fan base is assimilating that?

[drudy23]

That is really interesting. I can’t say I am surprised . Do you think the Xavier fan base is assimilating that?

I have no idea. I would guess the average fan with season tickets isn't putting their money into these collectives. From a personal standpoint, I don't think I ever would.

It's going to have to be the guys with "I don't care" money, and there's just not as many at smaller schools in small markets. If I had that kind of money and it got me some access to private trips and great seats to away games, I'd probably consider it because it would be fun, but I don't have that kind of dough, nor does 99% of the average fan.

Not to mention, you can be sure season ticket prices are going to go up next year with the re-configuration and re-seat selection process.

[GIMMFD]

the good news is that Xavier does not have to feed N$L for 85 members of a FBS football team like most other P5 schools.

My understanding is that most Big East schools are paying $1M to $3.5M this season as opposed to $8M+ for the football factory schools.

I have doubts that N$L giving can be sustained at current levels. Consider that if a college was constructing a new building. The fat cat donor would be asked to make a six figure donation and never be asked again to donate for the project, whereas for N$L that donor is asked on an annual basis for a large donation to support their school’s N$L.

That's true, that's an excellent point that we don't have to fund a football team, but at the same time a place like Texas A&M can afford to blow how much on buyouts and new coaches? $100 million basically? So even they obviously have the funds to take care of football and basketball both comfortably, I'm just more worried about what type of talent we can attract, we just don't have that kind of funding. Do we have enough to be competitive because we don't have a football program? I think so, that's definitely a good point, but I don't think we have the type of money that can woo the "can't miss" prospects/transfers. If that makes sense.


Based on what you read on the internet, it seems the "top" guys not named Lebron's son could fetch anywhere between $800k-$1M per year. Some of the best impact transfers were supposedly around $300-500k per year. Those amounts seem impossible for a school like Xavier to cover. It's tough for the school to raise a couple extra million just for a coach extension.

I would assume some of our best guys are maybe getting $50k? Maybe.

Those numbers sound right, Nijel Pack's transfer from Kansas State to Miami is a $800k deal for 2 years (so $400k annually) per this source (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/march-madness-2023-nijel-packs-lucrative-nil-deal-pays-dividends-sets-up-for-teams-to-copy-miamis-strategy/), a freshman from Duke, McClain is making $1mil a year, I'm sure Cooper Flagg when he gets there will get $1mil as well. The recruiting email for the Final 2% collective said they wanted to hit a goal of somewhere around $1.5-2mil by Christmas when it was sent out to me (I deleted it, otherwise I'd pull up the numbers), it's definitely not feasible for us to get a top transfer/recruit at that rate.

[xukeith]

That's true, that's an excellent point that we don't have to fund a football team, but at the same time a place like Texas A&M can afford to blow how much on buyouts and new coaches? $100 million basically? So even they obviously have the funds to take care of football and basketball both comfortably, I'm just more worried about what type of talent we can attract, we just don't have that kind of funding. Do we have enough to be competitive because we don't have a football program? I think so, that's definitely a good point, but I don't think we have the type of money that can woo the "can't miss" prospects/transfers. If that makes sense.



Those numbers sound right, Nijel Pack's transfer from Kansas State to Miami is a $800k deal for 2 years (so $400k annually) per this source (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/march-madness-2023-nijel-packs-lucrative-nil-deal-pays-dividends-sets-up-for-teams-to-copy-miamis-strategy/), a freshman from Duke, McClain is making $1mil a year, I'm sure Cooper Flagg when he gets there will get $1mil as well. The recruiting email for the Final 2% collective said they wanted to hit a goal of somewhere around $1.5-2mil by Christmas when it was sent out to me (I deleted it, otherwise I'd pull up the numbers), it's definitely not feasible for us to get a top transfer/recruit at that rate.

Would settling for the best transfer out of all the non-Big 5 conference be enough?

[drudy23]

Would settling for the best transfer out of all the non-Big 5 conference be enough?

I think that's exactly why you saw us land guys from WKU and Rice.

It can be enough with solid high school recruiting and player development. At a school like X, all 3 have to work in tandem.

It will be interesting to see how NIL vs non-NIL evolves over the next 5-10 years. Hopefully, kids play the long-term possibilities instead of just going for the quick buck.

[xukeith]

I think that's exactly why you saw us land guys from WKU and Rice.

It can be enough with solid high school recruiting and player development. At a school like X, all 3 have to work in tandem.

It will be interesting to see how NIL vs non-NIL evolves over the next 5-10 years. Hopefully, kids play the long-term possibilities instead of just going for the quick buck.

Wouldn't X then be competing vs. the mid to lower schools in B10, B12, ACC, BE? Can't afford the top talent in transfer portal?

[drudy23]

Wouldn't X then be competing vs. the mid to lower schools in B10, B12, ACC, BE? Can't afford the top talent in transfer portal?

Honestly, I have no clue. I'm just making educated guesses here.

I'm guessing the guys we get from high school aren't "name" enough to demand high NIL deals coming out of HS. Not sure it changes much of who we recruit out of high school as we never really get consistent 5 stars.

With the transfer portal, I think you have to determine who gets the $$$. Is it 3 transfers where the loot is spread out, or do you give it all to a very high profile transfer with the idea it's the kind of player that gets you over the top in conjunction with your recruiting classes and player development.

A school like X seems to have to be much more strategic with their NIL spend as they are unlikely to have a huge coffer of funds to offer.

As someone mentioned earlier, you just can't completely whiff on the transfers or you're in trouble. You can see what just ONE impact transfer can do for a team (Boum).

[paulxu]

As someone mentioned earlier, you just can't completely whiff on the transfers or you're in trouble. You can see what just ONE impact transfer can do for a team (Boum).

Or Jordan Crawford.

[UCGRAD4X]

We need to consider if we can compete in the BEast first.

[fellahmuskie]

Maybe a dumb question, but if we missed on our biggest transfer/NIL targets this past summer, does that mean we will have more to spend next summer? Or does it not work like that?

Also, don't we just need one really big donor to throw $20-30 million at our NIL collective to essentially fund it going forward on interest?

[A Fan]

[QUOTE=fellahmuskie;772683]Maybe a dumb question, but if we missed on our biggest transfer/NIL targets this past summer, does that mean we will have more to spend next summer? Or does it not work like that?

Also, don't we just need one really big donor to throw $20-30 million at our NIL collective to essentially fund it going forward on interest?[/QUOTE

The collective takes contributions and spends as it sees fit. Whatever contributions it receives in one year and not expended are carried forward indefinitely. While there is supposed to be no coordination between the coach and the collective that is a practical impossibility. The player is supposed to enroll without any discussion of money from either the coach or the director of the collective. In other words the collective cannot recruit and the coach can recruit but not talk compensation. Everybody is now winking . Since Xavier’s collective is a non profit it has to file a tax return. I imagine the tax return will show expenditures for “ services rendered” by those compensated but not their names. If you want to know which Xavier players are receiving collective compensation follow the collectives web site. You will see Xavier players engaged in some charitable “ outreach” but you will not know who is getting paid what. If you want to be an “ insider” you should contribute $100.00 to the collective and then ask for a list of the recipients..While it is unlikely you will not be told , those large contributors are though should have no role in either the selection or the amount given to each recipient .Xavier’s cooperative is a non profit which permits donor contributions to be tax deductible so long as the activities the players endorse or spend time with are not commercial. The donors do, however , have the right , often exercised, to suggest/ designate the Charity to whom the players should spend time with. The entire system is an artifice to pay to play. There is no limit on how much an athlete can be paid for an hour spent at the YMCA. It is all a silly way to pay players. Once the National Labor Relations Board mandates colleges to recognize athletes as “ employees” with collective bargaining rights Xavier will have to fund raise for those payments which will far exceed what donors now give to the Collective. Big Schools, however , will be financially able to fund both.
My prediction is that schools the size of Xavier will have to abolish all form of collegiate athletics to avoid paying a union negotiated wage to all athletes. And Xavier could contract with an independent organization such as “ Sean Miller Basketball Incorporated “ to use the Xavier name and facilities who would compete against like situated schools.
To summarize, the changes to intercollegiate athletics are just beginning. Money Rules but also destroys!