Nova and Gonzaga to the B12?

[JTG]

There is considerable chatter on the 24/7 board about the Big 12 having discussions with Nova, Zags, and possibly St Johns joining as basketball only members. Mainly just Nova & Gonzaga. Even some chatter about adding UCONN. With a supposed $8-10 million tv cut for the bball only schools. There is speculation there is a race to 20 teams for B12, BIG, and SEC. Not exactly what I wanted to read about this morning. I don't think it would bode well for X. Has anyone on here heard such talk?

[GoMuskies]

Great timing on Nova fellas!

[drudy23]

Villanova and SJU moving to Big 12 makes about as much sense as Gonzaga moving to the Big East. In saying that, nothing is out of the question when it comes to money.

[Xville]

I know there have been a lot of things written that it would be good for nova and the zags to join as bb only schools. I wonder if that’s just where the chatter is coming from?

If I’m the zags or nova, I’d be pretty cautious about joining a conference that has high d 1 football members. If it happens, it happens but I think it will be dependent on what the big East can do with the next tv deal.

[drudy23]

If we lose Nova, just go get Duke. They would probably be a good fit actually.

[Xville]

If we lose Nova, just go get Duke. They would probably be a good fit actually.

Except for that whole football thing

[GoMuskies]

Except for that whole football thing

Dook doesn't play football.

[drudy23]

Duke football is along the same lines as UConn football. They have programs but I doubt either makes much money.

[Xavier]

I obviously think it would suck to lose nova (assuming this doesn’t turn into a Travis Steele situation for them) and Uconn. But I still think big East can get a few more basketball only schools and it would still be a good conference.

[JTG]

I obviously think it would suck to lose nova (assuming this doesn’t turn into a Travis Steele situation for them) and Uconn. But I still think big East can get a few more basketball only schools and it would still be a good conference.

Good? Maybe....TV Good? Nope. You're talking about losing 6 National Championships, and replacing it with what?

[zippin']

Wow, this would be horrible. Especially if the BE lost both Nova and UCONN let along either one.

[sirthought]

Duke is not a powerhouse, but since 2012 they have played in seven bowl games.

They would have no reason to leave the ACC with the current situation.

[zippin']

I have a hard time seeing Duke coming to the BE when the B10, SEC, and B12 will all probably be trying for them as well. If conferences are going after Nova (bball only), they sure as hell are going to be going after Duke too.

[xuwillie]

Duke is not a powerhouse, but since 2012 they have played in seven bowl games.

They would have no reason to leave the ACC with the current situation.

There's a better chance X would join the ACC (and that's a reach) then Duke joining the Big East.

[zippin']

It's interesting to me that the B12, a conference that I would assume wants to be all in on f ball, would want to add 2-3 b ball only schools. I obviously have no idea what the financials are, but it seems relatively likely they would be the lowest earners of the conference since they are b ball only, and b ball makes way less than f ball does. Wonder why the f ball schools would want to divide the total $$$ by more teams when they wouldn't contribute as much.

[JTG]

It's interesting to me that the B12, a conference that I would assume wants to be all in on f ball, would want to add 2-3 b ball only schools. I obviously have no idea what the financials are, but it seems relatively likely they would be the lowest earners of the conference since they are b ball only, and b ball makes way less than f ball does. Wonder why the f ball schools would want to divide the total $$$ by more teams when they wouldn't contribute as much.

Even with the AAC teams they are adding, the Big12 will still be a sub-standard football conference. I don't see why any network would shell out $32 mil per school for that brand of football. Unless it was Texas or Ok, and they're both leaving, I'm pretty sure I've never watched a Big12 fb game.

[zippin']

I don't disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that their new TV deal is going to be a much larger payout for each school. I'm just somewhat surprised they would want to eat into that for 2-3 schools that probably wouldn't change the final number that much.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34910144/big-12-nears-six-year-228b-tv-extension-deal-espn-fox

EDIT: Was replying to @JTG here but forgot to click quote.

[GoMuskies]

Even with the AAC teams they are adding, the Big12 will still be a sub-standard football conference. I don't see why any network would shell out $32 mil per school for that brand of football. Unless it was Texas or Ok, and they're both leaving, I'm pretty sure I've never watched a Big12 fb game.

The TCU/KState Big XII championship game was pretty epic. TCU did their conference proud in beating Michigan in the playoffs, but it might have been better for the brand if they had forfeitted the championship game due to Covid or something.

[Seven Eighths]

Gonzaga may join the B12 but I’d be surprised if any BE teams did. The B12 won’t be around in 10 years. It may end sooner. Why leave a basketball centric successful conference for a hybrid that may implode at any time?

[RoseyMuskie]

Gonzaga may join the B12 but I’d be surprised if any BE teams did. The B12 won’t be around in 10 years. It may end sooner. Why leave a basketball centric successful conference for a hybrid that may implode at any time?

I see a world where the Big 12 is still around in ten years. But it’s a world where the Pac12 no longer exists. I think it’s one, or the other.

[zippin']

Seems like the B10 and SEC will be the premier conferences in college sports (football specifically), and everyone else will be playing for third. I don't see why the ACC, B12, and PAC12 couldn't all exist in this scenario. Maybe the three merge into two, but I don't really get the "B12 will be gone in X years" comments I see around. They're in the best place of the remaining 3.

[Seven Eighths]

I see a world where the Big 12 is still around in ten years. But it’s a world where the Pac12 no longer exists. I think it’s one, or the other.

The B12 will exist but it will basically be the AAC 2.0 with two major football conferences, each with a west coast and east coast presence.

SEC at 22-24 teams

B10 at 22-24 teams

The ACC dead, Big 12 dead, Pac dead.

BE alive as the preeminent basketball centric conference.

[Seven Eighths]

Seems like the B10 and SEC will be the premier conferences in college sports (football specifically), and everyone else will be playing for third. I don't see why the ACC, B12, and PAC12 couldn't all exist in this scenario. Maybe the three merge into two, but I don't really get the "B12 will be gone in X years" comments I see around. They're in the best place of the remaining 3.

None of the current B12 teams want to be in the B12. They want to be in the SEC or B10, that’s why it won’t last.

[zippin']

None of the current B12 teams want to be in the B12. They want to be in the SEC or B10, that’s why it won’t last.

OK, but most of them are never getting into the SEC or B10 and this is their best option and it being the (distant) 3rd best conference is still good for them.

[bleedXblue]

This all makes my head spin. You're in a good conference, you're out of a good conference. Rinse and repeat. Money and power ruins everything. Stick to what you are good at. St John to the B12? Good lord what a shit show.

[Seven Eighths]

OK, but most of them are never getting into the SEC or B10 and this is their best option and it being the (distant) 3rd best conference is still good for them.

There are only so many spots in the two big leagues, I agree. There won’t really be a third league though.

[sirthought]

Even with the AAC teams they are adding, the Big12 will still be a sub-standard football conference. I don't see why any network would shell out $32 mil per school for that brand of football. Unless it was Texas or Ok, and they're both leaving, I'm pretty sure I've never watched a Big12 fb game.

I find this comment laughable.

[xudash]

Part One

Firstly, this "heard it on the grapevine" stuff about Nova, Gonzaga and St. Johns to the Big 12 is a little dated, in terms of it first being put out there a little while ago. People may still be discussing it on message boards, but nothing has come from it, and I seriously doubt anything will come from it.

Villanova and St. Johns have sufficiently good memories, insofar as they remember having to deal with football schools back when the old Big East bloated itself into a desperate composition, as driven by actions that were virtually entirely about football. Those two schools - the C7 - said enough is enough, and we've so been part of a strong Big East basketball-centric conference ever since. That's reason #1 they won't leave the Big East.

Reason #2 is money. More specifically, reason #2 is about an insufficient gap in media payout per school per year between what the new Big East media agreement will bring versus anything that gets strung together by the Big 12, as far as the basketball-specific figure is concerned. The Big East's new media agreement will most likely fetch double what we're getting per school now - so it will move towards or above the $8 million per school range. The Big 12 would have to come up with one hell of a number in order to pull our BE brethren away from their recruiting base, association with like minded institutions, and a conference tournament held at MSG. BTW, that recruiting base thing is real - just ask BC about that. BC's administration probably doesn't care, because it is enjoying ACC paychecks that are higher than what BC's sports are worth. They get to enjoy them for about one more decade, assuming the bigger ACC schools like Florida State, etc. don't force a GOR break-up. Then, who knows.

Reason #3 is about the Big 12 primarily solving for football. They want as much of the monies flowing towards the football side as possible, because they're going into long term battle with two behemoths. Football is the priority with them. Basketball is important, but it still second fiddle for them. The optics and reality for the Big 12 is that conference hybrids - again like the former BE - tend to stress out after a while. Again, it's all being driven by the age old reality that has been driving conference realignment since money entered the picture in a big way due to media rights deals - a reality that clearly reflects that football drives the bus in all this. The Big 12 has to continue to primarily solve for football, especially vis-a-vis the ACC and the PAC "12." What are you really focused on at this point if you are the Big 12's Commissioner? You probably are focused on a chess board that involves placing the PAC 12 in checkmate, before they cook up a way to do it to you. Here is an interesting article that speaks to that:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/12-schools-the-big-12-should-target-for-expansion/ar-AA17wQXw

[xudash]

Part Two

They need to continue to solve for football. Frankly, I personally believe it is that simple. Yormark, IMHO, will look desperate if he starts patch-quilting basketball only schools into what historically has been a P5 conference. He needs to succeed in pulling away some combination of Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Oregon, Utah, and/or Washington. He would take it to 20 teams if he gets all of them: 12-2+4+6=20. Who knows if that or some other lessor combination would be accretive to his new media agreement. The point is that he needs to solve for football to protect the "Big 12" from further future erosion. Erosion would not come from the existing 10 left behind from the Texas and OU exits. It also wouldn't come from the new additions (sorry Bearcats). Perhaps Oregon and Washington are still attractive enough to one of the Power Two at this point.

So, let's touch on that, now that I brought that up. The B1G and the SEC will simply come out of all this in formidable positions. There is no other way of looking at it. That doesn't mean that other programs outside of those conferences will not be able to compete, but it means that it is going to be harder to compete. What's your focus: winning a national championship in football in FBS? Well, that already is SEC heavy. It will probably remain that way, but with Ohio State and Michigan, in particular, snatching trophies now and then.

What's your focus besides that: the weekend / gameday / tailgate experience at your school? Frankly, UC has come a long way in that regard. But just consider programs like Clemson and Oklahoma State. They aren't going away, but they aren't going to be as well positioned as they were before. Another point I've made in the past is the stress all this is going to put on smaller schools that had been part of the P5. They don't have the base with which to spread student fees to subsidize their activities in sports. TCU, Baylor, Wake, BC, Duke, etc. I doubt they're worried about being in the running for playoff spots that much moving forward. They'll certainly want to keep the fan experience going for as long as possible, and with good performances in whatever bowls they can garner moving forward. What TCU did to Michigan was comical. What Georgia did to TCU was telling. And I'm not focused on the NOW with all this; I'm focused on what's coming down the line.

I still believe the BE will continue to be a well funded, well run basketball-centric conference that competes at the highest level of basketball. I don't see it getting split up over this. I don't see it stressing about expansion right now. If it expands soon, then it probably is for Gonzaga. If that doesn't happen, then it could wait to see what happens down the road with the likes of Syracuse, etc.

When it is all said and done, how we make out in our next media rights negotiation will tell us how well the Big East is positioned for the future. I like our chances.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Dash:

Long-form favorite of mine on xavierhoops.

You never let me down, man.

Public reps.

[Seven Eighths]

The B12 is desperate to compete with the big 2 as are the ACC and PAC. The PAC is trying to kill the B12 and vice versa. Neither has been successful recently in enticing schools to leave in part because neither conference is on solid footing.

[Xavier]

Good? Maybe....TV Good? Nope. You're talking about losing 6 National Championships, and replacing it with what?

Yes. TV good. Networks are starving for live entertainment. If you keep Xavier/Creighton/Marquettte/Providence as a core you’ll be fine for TV. Doubtful but ND? Dayton (I know. I know) st Luis?

There’s handful of basketball centric programs that would come in. Would it be better than these main conferences for TV? No. But I don’t know that it drops from where it is now in terms of tv rankings. It’s still better than a gutted pac12. It currently is not better than Big12/10, ACC/SEC—-in terms of network ratings, I imagine. Would the strength of the conference take a hit? Yes….but again, I’m not sure what Nova looks like post Wright. It won’t be as big a drop as many think.

[xu82]

I don’t know what Nova looks like long term going forward, but they carry a well respected reputation with them. That history and name have value. I’ll pray this is a nothing burger and we pretty much just carry on.

[X-band '01]

Football can be an affiliate sport. Baseball can be an affiliate sport. Soccer can be an affiliate sport.

Basketball is a keystone sport and I can't imagine such a scenario happening without bylaws being amended/rewritten.

Pay no attention to the rumors behind the curtain.

[xudash]

Football can be an affiliate sport. Baseball can be an affiliate sport. Soccer can be an affiliate sport.

Basketball is a keystone sport and I can't imagine such a scenario happening without bylaws being amended/rewritten.

Pay no attention to the rumors behind the curtain.

Thanks, Mel. I'm just trying to establish what I believe to be a logical outcome, given what we know and what seems likely.

Band, great point. The BE is about basketball; it is the crown jewel.

A little more perspective - what it took for UCONN to get back to the BE and what it means for them: https://connecticut.rivals.com/news/financial-breakdown-of-uconn-s-move-to-the-big-east

The Big 12 can't take them in as a football school. Well, they could, but they would be diluting their competitiveness and football media value by doing so. I tend to believe that UCONN has found its logical home for sports: basketball is JOB ONE, and football is managed as best possible so as not to cause too much of a financial drain.

BTW, I can't recall UCONN's Exit Fee were it to consider leaving the Big East, but it is substantial.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Big 12 isn’t taken basketball only schools. It makes zero sense. Tbey want to compete with the football powers. Basketball is already very good as it is. However they are going after 4 pac 12 schools https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/.amp/ncaa-football/college-football-expansion-big-12-wants-pac-12-schools-report

[drudy23]

Might want to put a question mark at the end of this thread title.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.

[drudy23]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.

You will probably get tarred and feathered for the comment, but I completely agree with you.

[KabeX]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.
Y maybe. But I just don't like em. I mean do we really want that irrational melon humping fanbase in our league?

[JTG]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.

St John's and Depaul's ONLY value to a league is their media location. But I'd still take that over Dayton.

[paulxu]

I mean do we really want that irrational melon humping fanbase in our league?

This is a perfect example of the rhetorical question.

[OTRMUSKIE]

I hate VD as much as the next guy but I also miss the rivalry. They have suffered enough, it’s time to being it back. How much is DePaul helping the Big East? Nobody in Chicago prob cares about the Big East. Hell Loyola would be a much better team to have.

[xubrew]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.

Perhaps they're an upgrade over DePaul, but not Saint John's.

If one school leaves the Big East, I say we stay at ten. if two schools leave, I say we stay at nine. If three schools leave, then maybe look at adding one or two more.

I do think the Big 12 did reach out to Villanova and Saint John's. I think the reason they did it has more to do with wanting to start a conference network and have it distributed in those markets. If there were a Big 12 Network, and they could get distribution in New York, Philly, and Seattle on the basic tier cable packages, then even though those schools don't play football it would be worth it to them. That's really how the conference giants are making the bulk of their money these days. I don't think any of those schools will go, but I don't know that for sure and neither does anyone else. I do understand why the Big 12 would court them. I also understand why it is that they might listen.

[zippin']

Disagree big time that U Dump is better than SJ. Access to MSG alone makes the Johnnies better.

[xudash]

I hate VD as much as the next guy but I also miss the rivalry. They have suffered enough, it’s time to being it back. How much is DePaul helping the Big East? Nobody in Chicago prob cares about the Big East. Hell Loyola would be a much better team to have.

There are other considerations besides basketball related ones in play here.

Beyond that, why on God’s earth would we want to elevate another program in our region when that would amp up competition on the recruiting front?

I believe it would take an extraordinary set of events in order for VD to ever sniff the Big East.

[JTG]

I hate VD as much as the next guy but I also miss the rivalry. They have suffered enough, it’s time to being it back. How much is DePaul helping the Big East? Nobody in Chicago prob cares about the Big East. Hell Loyola would be a much better team to have.

And what does missing the rivalry mean? Talking shit on the internet? Weaseling around on a UD message board? Few have any desire to go to UD Arena, and most of the folks at Cintas aren't over the top aholes like the folks in Dayton. They screwed us , and they can pay for it til the end of time for all most of us care.

[drudy23]

Beyond that, why on God’s earth would we want to elevate another program in our region when that would amp up competition on the recruiting front?



Never understood this argument. There are literally hundreds of programs spread out all over the US. Every decent program has close competitors they are competing with. Competition typically breeds success for the successful, it doesn't hinder it.

[JTG]

Never understood this argument. There are literally hundreds of programs spread out all over the US. Every decent program has close competitors they are competing with. Competition typically breeds success for the successful, it doesn't hinder it.

You should really spend some time with the Xavier Administration, and the Admission folks. There is a serious drop off in the number of college age kids in the next 10 years. Children of boomers ended up having fewer kids, and therefore the pool of kids to pick from is smaller. It is kind of an all out war for bodies, and any and all advantages you can have are highly valued. That's one of the driving forces behind the Med School and the Pioneer League football program. Take a tour of the campus. It is light years different than my days from 68-72, and very different, and better and higher tech and more spectacular student experience than just 10 years ago. So no, we don't need Dayton in the Big East.

[MHettel]

Cant help but think that B12 could be using GU and Nova as leverage to some extent. the Pac 12, B12 and ACC are all at risk right now. 2 of the 3 will survive, possibly all 3. But currently they each face a risk of being adversely impacted.

If the B12 is trying to lure some Pac 12 teams, then it would make the MOST sense for those teams to wait it out. maybe the Pac 12 is able to poach a few B12 teams instead???? Of maybe the ACC grabs a couple B12 teams. The PAC 12 teams have no reason to act quickly on an invite from the B12....UNLESS they perceive that the B12 has OTHER options that it is willing to execute on.

I'm not sure if any B12 interest in GO & Nova is genuine, but would the PAC12 teams be willing to call that bet?

[xavierj]

Cant help but think that B12 could be using GU and Nova as leverage to some extent. the Pac 12, B12 and ACC are all at risk right now. 2 of the 3 will survive, possibly all 3. But currently they each face a risk of being adversely impacted.

If the B12 is trying to lure some Pac 12 teams, then it would make the MOST sense for those teams to wait it out. maybe the Pac 12 is able to poach a few B12 teams instead???? Of maybe the ACC grabs a couple B12 teams. The PAC 12 teams have no reason to act quickly on an invite from the B12....UNLESS they perceive that the B12 has OTHER options that it is willing to execute on.

I'm not sure if any B12 interest in GO & Nova is genuine, but would the PAC12 teams be willing to call that bet?

I agree with this and it doesn’t seem like the Big East conference is too concerned. Greg Christopher certainly is not. I have always felt that Kansas will end up in the ACC or Big 10 at some point. Kansas in a league with Duke, Virginia and North Carolina would be interesting and the their football is much better suited for the ACC than it was the current Big 12.

[JTG]

Isn't Kansas football best suited to the GCL?

[xubrew]

Never understood this argument. There are literally hundreds of programs spread out all over the US. Every decent program has close competitors they are competing with. Competition typically breeds success for the successful, it doesn't hinder it.

It just boils down to not wanting to play them. College sports, and college football and basketball in particular, are sports where teams don't have to play against opponents they don't want to play against. It's the only sport in the world that's like that, and I don't think that it's good for the sport overall that it is like that, but that's just how it is.

I think there are about 40ish to 50ish schools that are not in the P5, and that either don't play football at all, or if they do basketball is still the flagship sport. They fill their arenas during stretches of the season when most other schools don't, they regularly compete for spots in the NCAA Tournament or at the very least are in leagues that routinely send multiple teams (there are P5 schools that are never within reach of the NCAA Tournament either), and are basically in a situation to where basketball is their bread and butter. I believe all of these schools/conferences could collectively benefit if they worked together more and even worked to carve out their own distinction and identity the way the P5 has. Center that identity entirely around basketball. Schedule each other more in the early parts of the season. Hell, put together a 32 or 64 team extravaganza over the winter break. I'd bet it'd generage a fair amount of interest, and that maybe some people who are at home over the holidays watching TV would rather fill out a bracket and watch that than the Fenway Bowl. Who knows?? Why not try it??

On the first night of the season, when there are 200+ games and 198 of them totally stink and are played in front of a lot of empty seats, schedule games against each other that do not stink that people may actually want to watch.

But, none of this will happen. It's not about the game. It certainly isn't about working together to make the game better. They don't want to work together. A possible collective improvement in both the product and the general interest in the product just doesn't interest them, and even if it does they don't want to stop eating cupcakes early in the season and they also don't want to start playing teams that they'd rather just not play. And of course I'm talking about Georgetown and George Washington, who I don't believe have met even once in the 3pt line era. But, I can understand both the basketball related and overall institutionally related ramifications for not wanting to play the game. I mean, I'd hate for people to start to get the idea that Georgetown isn't good at basketball!! You also wouldn't want their rank, or enrollment, or prestige to drop because of a game against GW!

[xudash]

You should really spend some time with the Xavier Administration, and the Admission folks. There is a serious drop off in the number of college age kids in the next 10 years. Children of boomers ended up having fewer kids, and therefore the pool of kids to pick from is smaller. It is kind of an all out war for bodies, and any and all advantages you can have are highly valued. That's one of the driving forces behind the Med School and the Pioneer League football program. Take a tour of the campus. It is light years different than my days from 68-72, and very different, and better and higher tech and more spectacular student experience than just 10 years ago. So no, we don't need Dayton in the Big East.

Spot on post.

Let's just be blunt about it: this has a hell of a lot more to do with things that have nothing to do with a worthless, toxic past rivalry.

[zippin']

Isn't Kansas football best suited to the GCL?

Kansas football would not be able to handle a GCL schedule. Elder, Moeller, and St X in one season?

[XUGRAD80]

Cant help but think that B12 could be using GU and Nova as leverage to some extent. the Pac 12, B12 and ACC are all at risk right now. 2 of the 3 will survive, possibly all 3. But currently they each face a risk of being adversely impacted.

If the B12 is trying to lure some Pac 12 teams, then it would make the MOST sense for those teams to wait it out. maybe the Pac 12 is able to poach a few B12 teams instead???? Of maybe the ACC grabs a couple B12 teams. The PAC 12 teams have no reason to act quickly on an invite from the B12....UNLESS they perceive that the B12 has OTHER options that it is willing to execute on.

I'm not sure if any B12 interest in GO & Nova is genuine, but would the PAC12 teams be willing to call that bet?

If the PAC schools aren’t confident that their conference administrators are going to be able to land a good TV contract, they will be looking for someone that can do that and that wants them. They don’t have many choices there. Will the SEC or the Big 10 want them? Possibly a couple of them might be attractive to one of those conferences, but certainly not all. If you add to that the threat that the Big 12 might fill potential positions with others and not them…….

[Seven Eighths]

If the PAC schools aren’t confident that their conference administrators are going to be able to land a good TV contract, they will be looking for someone that can do that and that wants them. They don’t have many choices there. Will the SEC or the Big 10 want them? Possibly a couple of them might be attractive to one of those conferences, but certainly not all. If you add to that the threat that the Big 12 might fill potential positions with others and not them…….

The B12 and PAC 12 are full of teams that are trying like crazy to get into the SEC or B10. That’s not sustainable for either conference.

They are trying to also kill the other off so they can pretend to be big time a little longer. It’s sad to watch in many ways.

[Xavier]

Might be a better spot for this but Pitino to St. John’s or Gtown would be nice for the big East. Especially if (and I think it’s doubtful) nova leaves to big 12

[xubrew]

One of the big differences is that the Big 12 has inked their media deal (at least the first tier of it), and it's a good one. It appears that they are now moving to the next phase of it, which is starting their own network and getting it as widely distributed as possible so they can collect as many distribution fees for their network as possible. If that means inviting "basketball schools" who have significant followings in big markets even though those schools don't play FBS football, then so be it. I'm not saying they'll see it through, but they at least seem to be open to the idea given that it does look like they've talked to The Johnnies, and Nova, and Gonzaga.

The Pac 12 has no deal that's inked, and they're getting kind of antsy. At least that's how it seems. Rumor has it that they've been meeting with Apple, and are actually considering an exclusive deal with them. This could potentially make them a lot of money seeing as how Apple paid a fortune for the MLS. But, it would probably limit their actual viewership. I read that Apple is not even in the top ten streaming services in terms of the number of subscribers. Would you pay for an Apple TV subscription to watch the Pac 12?? I personally would, but I also pay for a Conference USA subscription, so I realize I am not the normal college sports fan. I don't think very many normal people will outside of those fanbases.

I also think that not coming to terms with DirecTV really did hurt the Pac 12 Network. I don't know all the details, but I do know that DirecTV was not willing to pay the amount of distribution fees that the Pac 12 wanted, and instead the Pac 12 ended up with nothing. From what I understand, DTV said they would make the network available on a premium tier out of market, and on a lower tier in market, and the Pac 12 basically wanted it distributed nationally as if it were ESPN or something like that. But...anyway.

I think the Big 12 is in much better shape to poach teams from the Pac 12 than the other way around right now. I also think the Big 12 is open to the idea of expanding on a level that we've heard talked about, but not yet seen. They may actually be the first one to go to 18 or 20 schools. They also seem open to having basketball only schools if it means getting their conference network into those markets and getting to collect the distribution fees. That's REALLY what this is all about. Would Villanova, Saint John's, and Gonzaga consider going?? I don't THINK so, but I really don't know. I guess it depends on what exactly is being offered.

[zippin']

Might be a better spot for this but Pitino to St. John’s or Gtown would be nice for the big East. Especially if (and I think it’s doubtful) nova leaves to big 12

I'm not sure about the Pitino situation. The guy is 70 and will be 71 when next season begins. Even if he did make the move to St John's or G Town, how long would he even be there?

[drudy23]

I'm baffled as to why Georgetown doesn't go after a top tier coach.

[GoMuskies]

I'm baffled as to why Georgetown doesn't go after a top tier coach.

Thompson family capture

[Masterofreality]

It just boils down to not wanting to play them. College sports, and college football and basketball in particular, are sports where teams don't have to play against opponents they don't want to play against. It's the only sport in the world that's like that, and I don't think that it's good for the sport overall that it is like that, but that's just how it is.

I think there are about 40ish to 50ish schools that are not in the P5, and that either don't play football at all, or if they do basketball is still the flagship sport. They fill their arenas during stretches of the season when most other schools don't, they regularly compete for spots in the NCAA Tournament or at the very least are in leagues that routinely send multiple teams (there are P5 schools that are never within reach of the NCAA Tournament either), and are basically in a situation to where basketball is their bread and butter. I believe all of these schools/conferences could collectively benefit if they worked together more and even worked to carve out their own distinction and identity the way the P5 has. Center that identity entirely around basketball. Schedule each other more in the early parts of the season. Hell, put together a 32 or 64 team extravaganza over the winter break. I'd bet it'd generage a fair amount of interest, and that maybe some people who are at home over the holidays watching TV would rather fill out a bracket and watch that than the Fenway Bowl. Who knows?? Why not try it??

On the first night of the season, when there are 200+ games and 198 of them totally stink and are played in front of a lot of empty seats, schedule games against each other that do not stink that people may actually want to watch.

But, none of this will happen. It's not about the game. It certainly isn't about working together to make the game better. They don't want to work together. A possible collective improvement in both the product and the general interest in the product just doesn't interest them, and even if it does they don't want to stop eating cupcakes early in the season and they also don't want to start playing teams that they'd rather just not play. And of course I'm talking about Georgetown and George Washington, who I don't believe have met even once in the 3pt line era. But, I can understand both the basketball related and overall institutionally related ramifications for not wanting to play the game. I mean, I'd hate for people to start to get the idea that Georgetown isn't good at basketball!! You also wouldn't want their rank, or enrollment, or prestige to drop because of a game against GW!

Good stuff Brew!

[drudy23]

Thompson family capture

They need to get over that era.

[drudy23]

this has a hell of a lot more to do with things that have nothing to do with a worthless, toxic past rivalry.

Aren't those the best kind?

It's a great game with a great atmosphere. I couldn't care less about all of the other enrollment ramifications. It's a great basketball rivalry and that's good enough for me as a Xavier basketball fan.

[Seven Eighths]

One of the big differences is that the Big 12 has inked their media deal (at least the first tier of it), and it's a good one. It appears that they are now moving to the next phase of it, which is starting their own network and getting it as widely distributed as possible so they can collect as many distribution fees for their network as possible. If that means inviting "basketball schools" who have significant followings in big markets even though those schools don't play FBS football, then so be it. I'm not saying they'll see it through, but they at least seem to be open to the idea given that it does look like they've talked to The Johnnies, and Nova, and Gonzaga.

The Pac 12 has no deal that's inked, and they're getting kind of antsy. At least that's how it seems. Rumor has it that they've been meeting with Apple, and are actually considering an exclusive deal with them. This could potentially make them a lot of money seeing as how Apple paid a fortune for the MLS. But, it would probably limit their actual viewership. I read that Apple is not even in the top ten streaming services in terms of the number of subscribers. Would you pay for an Apple TV subscription to watch the Pac 12?? I personally would, but I also pay for a Conference USA subscription, so I realize I am not the normal college sports fan. I don't think very many normal people will outside of those fanbases.

I also think that not coming to terms with DirecTV really did hurt the Pac 12 Network. I don't know all the details, but I do know that DirecTV was not willing to pay the amount of distribution fees that the Pac 12 wanted, and instead the Pac 12 ended up with nothing. From what I understand, DTV said they would make the network available on a premium tier out of market, and on a lower tier in market, and the Pac 12 basically wanted it distributed nationally as if it were ESPN or something like that. But...anyway.

I think the Big 12 is in much better shape to poach teams from the Pac 12 than the other way around right now. I also think the Big 12 is open to the idea of expanding on a level that we've heard talked about, but not yet seen. They may actually be the first one to go to 18 or 20 schools. They also seem open to having basketball only schools if it means getting their conference network into those markets and getting to collect the distribution fees. That's REALLY what this is all about. Would Villanova, Saint John's, and Gonzaga consider going?? I don't THINK so, but I really don't know. I guess it depends on what exactly is being offered.

I agree the B12 is on better footing than the PAC 12. Doesn’t mean the B12 is on solid footing.

Many expect both the B10 and SEC to bring in more teams. Is Oregon content to wait for the B10 to call, knowing it may never happen or rush to jump ship and pay exit fees to join a conference that could also disband.

I think this is why the four corner schools haven’t accepted the offer to join the B12.

[xudash]

Aren't those the best kind?

It's a great game with a great atmosphere. I couldn't care less about all of the other enrollment ramifications. It's a great basketball rivalry and that's good enough for me as a Xavier basketball fan.

Respect your opinion, but it’s a good thing that you’re not in the front office.

[drudy23]

Respect your opinion, but it’s a good thing that you’re not in the front office.

If I was, I'd be throwing everything at the bball progam lol.

I'm a lifelong fan, but did not attend X, so I really don't pay much attention to anything other than hoops.

[xubrew]

Respect your opinion, but it’s a good thing that you’re not in the front office.

If I understand what you’re saying, it’s that the front office believes that scheduling Dayton would give them a platform that they otherwise wouldn’t have, and that platform would enable them to syphon resources, and prospective students, and attention away from Xavier that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to. Is they correct??

[xudash]

If I understand what you’re saying, it’s that the front office believes that scheduling Dayton would give them a platform that they otherwise wouldn’t have, and that platform would enable them to syphon resources, and prospective students, and attention away from Xavier that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to. Is they correct??

I'm not sure I would state it exactly that way, but it is obvious to even the most casual observer that our membership in the Big East trumps their imprisonment in the A10. At a minimum, we pull in conference facilitated media money that they cannot begin to match. We have significantly greater national exposure institutionally via that media agreement. We are aligned with 10 other truly solid citizens, which helps with overall brand awareness and positioning. On that note, the Big East serves to provide other opportunities to its members other than sports, an example being the innovation pitch deck competitions, which Xavier has actually performed very well in.

Overall, Xavier's membership in the Big East is paying dividends with respect to prospective students and with development. Our membership in the Big East continues to elevate us institutionally.

I'm not talking about scheduling them. I'm singularly focused on keeping them out of the Big East to maintain this specific competitive advantage over them.

Would it hurt to "schedule" them in the OOC slate? I don't know that it would hurt anything, but it isn't going to help any party other than them. When it is all said and done, I wouldn't be waiting for the front office, the side office or the back office - I wouldn't be waiting for any office at Xavier - to announce a forthcoming game with VD.

[xubrew]

I'm not sure I would state it exactly that way, but it is obvious to even the most casual observer that our membership in the Big East trumps their imprisonment in the A10. At a minimum, we pull in conference facilitated media money that they cannot begin to match. We have significantly greater national exposure institutionally via that media agreement. We are aligned with 10 other truly solid citizens, which helps with overall brand awareness and positioning. On that note, the Big East serves to provide other opportunities to its members other than sports, an example being the innovation pitch deck competitions, which Xavier has actually performed very well in.

Overall, Xavier's membership in the Big East is paying dividends with respect to prospective students and with development. Our membership in the Big East continues to elevate us institutionally.

I'm not talking about scheduling them. I'm singularly focused on keeping them out of the Big East to maintain this specific competitive advantage over them.

Would it hurt to "schedule" them in the OOC slate? I don't know that it would hurt anything, but it isn't going to help any party other than them. When it is all said and done, I wouldn't be waiting for the front office, the side office or the back office - I wouldn't be waiting for any office at Xavier - to announce a forthcoming game with VD.

It's good that the Big East provides opportunities beyond sports. Nearly every conference does. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what the Atlantic Ten offers.

It's also good to know that they would not state it exactly this way. It sounds kind of ridiculous when stated out loud, so best not to state it at all even if for whatever reason that is the case.

I personally don't want the conference membership at 11. So, I wouldn't want to add Dayton or anyone else unless three schools ended up leaving. If the Johnnies and Nova do leave, I'd rather stay at nine, but I guess I'd be fine if it went back to ten. Dayton wouldn't be my first choice, though. I'd actually focus on either VCU or Wichita State. I know they've not been a top 25 lately, but that's precisely it. Neither plays football, and despite being more NIT-ish than NCAA-ish both still fill their arenas all season long, both are in markets that aren't huge but aren't tiny either, and both have been appealing on a national level before and have the necessary ingredients to be that way again. But...I also know that Creighton wants nothing to do with Wichita State, so...

As far as a game like this "Not helping either party other than them"....this is one of the areas where I think college sports fails so badly and gets it completely wrong. I could easily list over 100 games that are not being played, and in all 100 cases it's all because of some version of the same reasons Xavier and Dayton don't play. It's like A Christmas Carol. There are well over 100 versions of it, but they're still basically all the same.

Schools, athletic departments, and even the NCAA itself totally fall to understand its current and potential audience. I myself put it into three categories

-THE DIEHARDS - Everyone on this board would be included in this category. They've always been here and will always continue to be here. If they miss a buy game over winter break it kills them

-CASUAL FANS - There are far more casual fans than there are diehard fans. They are legit fans. The watch most of the games, and may even go to a lot of games. But, they're not going to spend hours each day, even on days the team isn't playing, thinking about or talking about college basketball like those on this board do (myself included)

-THE BANDWAGON - This is the group I would like to focus on because it is BY FAR the biggest. It is also a group that athletic administrators and the NCAA are totally oblivious to and NEVER consider, even though it's the one they really should be considering the most. These people don't go to or even watch that many games. If they do, it's mostly because of the atmosphere. If you ask them to name as many teams in the top 25 as they can, they may be able to name five. Maybe not. If you ask them what conference Xavier plays in they'll probably know, but then if you ask them to name the other schools in the conference they might get two or three. This is MOST PEOPLE!! Diehards probably don't realize it because they are so used to being surrounded by other diehards, and administrators CERTAINLY don't realize it, but this is most people. But, they will get legitimately amped up for certain games that sort of transcend. This would be the NCAA Tournament, and in the case of Xavier the Crosstown Shootout, and maybe one or two others if they're playing a highly ranked team.

Dayton would be a game that Bandwagon Fans care about. It just would. It always was before. I consider that a benefit to Xavier.

Earlier in the thread I made mention of how I think the 40-50 basketball centric schools should do more to work together. One of the ways I REALLY think they should do that is to schedule as many games as they can that would stir up the bandwagon fans. The tendency all across college sports is to avoid these kinds of games. Like I said earlier, I can EASILY name 100 games that would stir up the bandwagon fans of those particular schools, but the games aren't played because one (and in a few cases both) schools don't see the benefit. I think this hurts college sports. I think it hurts college basketball. I think college basektball would collectively be in a better spot if that wasn't the tendency, and that those 100 games were all played.

I'm also rather certain the PLAYERS would like the chance to play in more games that sort of transcend and excite the bandwagon group. But, I do get it. I don't like it, but I get it. A game that a lot of fans would be excited about that normally don't get excited, and a game that would be great for the players, isn't considered a benefit. That's just not something that factors in to what the schools and departments value.

And, of course, I'm talking mostly about how Oklahoma and Oklahoma State have said they aren't going to keep Bedlam going anymore. Because, you know, it doesn't help their party. Or...some variation of the same reasons that are always given.

[Section 200]

If I understand what you’re saying, it’s that the front office believes that scheduling Dayton would give them a platform that they otherwise wouldn’t have, and that platform would enable them to syphon resources, and prospective students, and attention away from Xavier that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to. Is they correct??

Yes, I think the university administration believes that scheduling Dayton would give them an advantage. It is a war for good students right now - the number of college aged kids is shrinking in Ohio and surrounding states. In order to thrive in the future, Xavier wants to separate from Dayton to be seen as clearly better. Cincinnati is a huge market for UD while Dayton is a much smaller market for Xavier. Xavier has much less upside to the game vs Dayton so the game isn't played.

I agree the game would be fun for the fans - but at the same time our attendance and ticket prices have never been higher than right now - so clearly we don't need the help getting attention. Plus on the basketball side, we have 20 Big East games, UC, Big Ten game, Big 12 game and a Thanksgiving tourney every year - the schedule is brutal and doesn't need another rivalry game. UD was much more useful to us when the conference schedule was Fordham, Duquesne, LaSalle, Bona, etc. Essentially Butler is the new UD.

[xubrew]

Yes, I think the university administration believes that scheduling Dayton would give them an advantage. It is a war for good students right now - the number of college aged kids is shrinking in Ohio and surrounding states. In order to thrive in the future, Xavier wants to separate from Dayton to be seen as clearly better. Cincinnati is a huge market for UD while Dayton is a much smaller market for Xavier. Xavier has much less upside to the game vs Dayton so the game isn't played.

I agree the game would be fun for the fans - but at the same time our attendance and ticket prices have never been higher than right now - so clearly we don't need the help getting attention. Plus on the basketball side, we have 20 Big East games, UC, Big Ten game, Big 12 game and a Thanksgiving tourney every year - the schedule is brutal and doesn't need another rivalry game. UD was much more useful to us when the conference schedule was Fordham, Duquesne, LaSalle, Bona, etc. Essentially Butler is the new UD.

I don't doubt this. As I said before, I would just prefer that they kind of keep that to themselves because when spoken out loud it sounds ridiculous. Sounding ridiculous is something that can work to your disadvantage. I also hope (and believe) that they have some other better plans in place.

[Section 200]

I don't doubt this. As I said before, I would just prefer that they kind of keep that to themselves because when spoken out loud it sounds ridiculous. Sounding ridiculous is something that can work to your disadvantage. I also hope (and believe) that they have some other better plans in place.

I appreciate that the school is transparent. How else do you explain why the game isn't played - just don't answer the question? It's hard not to answer your alumni & donors when they ask.

[GoMuskies]

I appreciate that the school is transparent. How else do you explain why the game isn't played - just don't answer the question? It's hard not to answer your alumni & donors when they ask.

Is it good to be transparently stupid?

[xubrew]

I appreciate that the school is transparent. How else do you explain why the game isn't played - just don't answer the question? It's hard not to answer your alumni & donors when they ask.

It depends on who it is they want to cater to. I'm sure the donors and diehard alumni will buy that explanation. But to most other people (which is the vast majority of people) it's going to sound ridiculous.

I get that Xavier wanst to compete for students. I think it's important to talk to students when they enroll and ask them why they chose Xavier, and was it their first choice? and if not, then why not? and if so, then why X over another place? How did you first learn about Xavier?

I also believe the answers to these questions would pretty much the same whether Xavier played Dayton in basketball or not. And when they say that they're trying to separate themselves from Dayton, and one of the ways they're about this is by choosing to not play them in basketball, most people are gonna just think... "Huh?? That sounds kinda dumb."

[xubrew]

I want to say that I'm looking at this more on a macro level than a micro level.

Last week, an XFL game drew bigger ratings than all other college basketball telecasts that week. It just feels like the sport is just starting to matter less and less every year. Teams that used to fill their arenas all year long now sell out fewer than half their games. Utah, who used to pack the place, didn't even open the upper deck for most games prior Pac 12 play starting. They've opted to not play any other BeeHive eams (which was once a really fun mythical conference) other than BYU. I can't help but thing those two things are kind of related. You ask them why, which many did, and they gave answers like the ones that are being given here. And...most people thought it sounded dumb.

Not playing the types of games that cater to the Bandwagon fans is one of several things that I think hurt the sport (and that really doesn't help the schools even though they try and say it does), but it is one of the more visible things. It's hilarious to listen to Texas and Houston, especially now, go round and round about how no one would really care if they finally did resume that series in basketball, and how htey don't need, it, and how they really have nothing to gain from playing it. REALLY!!???? I'd rather Xavier not sound like that. But...that's just me. And i'm not a big time donor. I don't make enough money to be one, and I'm under no illusions that I ever will. So I am well aware of the fact that I am not in the group of people they are trying to please, nor am I someone that they would ever listen to.

If college basketball wants to become more popular and matter more to more people, and schools with teams want to matter more to more people, then they need to keep the bandwagon fans in mind. The only way they can really become more important is to make new fans, and that's where those new fans are going to come from. If not, then those other people will just watch something else like the XFL, I guess.

[bjf123]

Is it good to be transparently stupid?

Seems to work for most politicians! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Section 200]

I want to say that I'm looking at this more on a macro level than a micro level.

Last week, an XFL game drew bigger ratings than all other college basketball telecasts that week. It just feels like the sport is just starting to matter less and less every year. Teams that used to fill their arenas all year long now sell out fewer than half their games. Utah, who used to pack the place, didn't even open the upper deck for most games prior Pac 12 play starting. They've opted to not play any other BeeHive eams (which was once a really fun mythical conference) other than BYU. I can't help but thing those two things are kind of related. You ask them why, which many did, and they gave answers like the ones that are being given here. And...most people thought it sounded dumb.

Not playing the types of games that cater to the Bandwagon fans is one of several things that I think hurt the sport (and that really doesn't help the schools even though they try and say it does), but it is one of the more visible things. It's hilarious to listen to Texas and Houston, especially now, go round and round about how no one would really care if they finally did resume that series in basketball, and how htey don't need, it, and how they really have nothing to gain from playing it. REALLY!!???? I'd rather Xavier not sound like that. But...that's just me. And i'm not a big time donor. I don't make enough money to be one, and I'm under no illusions that I ever will. So I am well aware of the fact that I am not in the group of people they are trying to please, nor am I someone that they would ever listen to.

If college basketball wants to become more popular and matter more to more people, and schools with teams want to matter more to more people, then they need to keep the bandwagon fans in mind. The only way they can really become more important is to make new fans, and that's where those new fans are going to come from. If not, then those other people will just watch something else like the XFL, I guess.

I appreciate this point - but if college basketball wants to become more popular, cut the number of teams down to 100 or so like college football. There are just too many games available. Some nights there can be 15+ games available on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, FS1, FS2, Sec channel, ACC channel, Big 10 channel, CBS Sports, etc etc. There is too much content. It dilutes the audience & makes the sports seem less important because there is too much content.

[Masterofreality]

I had a long conversation with a VILLANOVA fan who is a good friend of mine. We’ve had numerous drinks in NY at the BE Tournament and he is in the know about a lot of things Big East and wired in. He told me there is NO, none, discussion about Villanova leaving the Big East. None, zero, nada. Nowhere on the radar screen.
What he did say that was interesting is that there is legit talk of UConn beginning to have discussions about joining the ACC. These are below the surface but happening.

[Xavier]

I remember seeing Mario say on Twitter that the expansion of March madness was a good thing for the sport. You’d get more big time games because the losses won’t hurt as much. You spread it so more schools and fanbases have hope (IE mid major and low major) and spreading that out will in turn grow the game. Look at every other sport- playoffs are expanding.

While I get his point, I personally think it makes college basketball even less relevant during November and December, “big” conference games don’t matter as much. It turns what’s left of interest in regular season even less. Maybe it could become more local than national- like MLB where national ratings aren’t high but it’s extremely high in local markets.

[xubrew]

I remember seeing Mario say on Twitter that the expansion of March madness was a good thing for the sport. You’d get more big time games because the losses won’t hurt as much. You spread it so more schools and fanbases have hope (IE mid major and low major) and spreading that out will in turn grow the game. Look at every other sport- playoffs are expanding.

While I get his point, I personally think it makes college basketball even less relevant during November and December, “big” conference games don’t matter as much. It turns what’s left of interest in regular season even less. Maybe it could become more local than national- like MLB where national ratings aren’t high but it’s extremely high in local markets.

I completely and totally agree with you. I think it’s the regular season that needs fixing. Not the NCAA Tournament. I think the way to make it better is to increase the overall awareness and understanding of how the regular season plays into the NCAA Tournament, and why regular season games are important. And the second part would be to give people more games that are more intriguing and better overall than what currently exist.

I like that Xavier is good and has the buy in from its fans that it does. But I’m also afraid that if this keeps up no one is really going to care about the thing that Xavier is good at anymore.

[xudash]

I had a long conversation with a VILLANOVA fan who is a good friend of mine. We’ve had numerous drinks in NY at the BE Tournament and he is in the know about a lot of things Big East and wired in. He told me there is NO, none, discussion about Villanova leaving the Big East. None, zero, nada. Nowhere on the radar screen.
What he did say that was interesting is that there is legit talk of UConn beginning to have discussions about joining the ACC. These are below the surface but happening.

I have heard that Florida State has engaged legal counsel to review what it would take to blow up the ACC GOR agreement. I imagine we all agree on at least one thing: that certain ACC members need and want to get out of the current ACC structure, whereas other members are simply holding on for life with what that structure offers over the next decade.

I have no doubt that the conversations are very fluid below the surface. This is just my opinion, but I would think that UConn would have to have some serious internal conversations before actually having any formal conversation with anyone outside. UConn has a lot to consider and a lot to deal with financially. Its athletic department runs seriously in the red. The penalty for leaving the Big East is something like $30 million. On the flipside, UConn would probably have an entry fee going into the ACC, and it would not be a full member for a period of time. And, again, we are talking about a conference that is not stable now, and certainly will not be financially stable in about 10 years.

There has been a lot of good and fair perspective offered here in the last number of posts. The new Big East has been a success. Thank God.

Macro and micro discussions concerning the sport are fair game as we continue to look into the future. Xavier will remain strong and get stronger under Sean Miller. The one, overriding thing that I am most focused on now is where we land with our next media agreement. That will tell us everything we need need to know about the viability of the Big East - and its members- moving forward.

[Masterofreality]

I have no doubt that the conversations are very fluid below the surface. This is just my opinion, but I would think that UConn would have to have some serious internal conversations before actually having any formal conversation with anyone outside. UConn has a lot to consider.

Macro and micro discussions concerning the sport are fair game as we continue to look into the future. Xavier will remain strong and get stronger under Sean Miller. The one, overriding thing that I am most focused on now is where we land with our next media agreement. That will tell us everything we need need to know about the viability of the Big East - and its members- moving forward.

The GOR discussion is interesting because there is real debate as to whether it’s legal, but more so, the financial penalty involved for breaking it. It could be an incredible amount of money to try to break. Don’t know if any school wants to risk that.
And UConn still does have financial issues, but apparently some alums and officials are full of themselves getting to a football bowl last year. Personally, I doubt that is sustainable but let them have their fun, I guess.
Finally, the media rights are almost everything going forward. I have a lot of confidence in Val Ackerman but it will be interesting. The Big East provided much needed programming for FS1’s launch. Now they have the Big 10. How much are we worth? I’d be interested in seeing Big East ratings for big market teams vs your normal Big 10- say Iowa vs Wisconsin- matchups. I would hope Big markets sway the decision..

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.


You will probably get tarred and feathered for the comment, but I completely agree with you.

Dayton being in the Big East (if it were to expand or the conference lost schools) makes perfect sense for the BE. Maybe it isn't good for Xavier individually given their location, but if just considering what is good for the BE as a whole, Dayton would be a good addition.

I would be fine with UD being added. I always liked the rivalry. Never had the hate for them that I did for UC. I don't like them, and hated how we were always their SB in later years, but I didn't hate them and wish only bad for them like UC.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.


You will probably get tarred and feathered for the comment, but I completely agree with you.


Perhaps they're an upgrade over DePaul, but not Saint John's.

If one school leaves the Big East, I say we stay at ten. if two schools leave, I say we stay at nine. If three schools leave, then maybe look at adding one or two more.


With all the conferences shifting, and it looking more like one of the Pac 12 or Big 12 devouring the other, these super conferences are forming. If that trend comes to fruition, I see it being difficult to schedule as many quality con conference opponents. That would make me nervous with a 9 or 10 team Big East.

The BE could go to 12 teams and still do a round robin.

[D-West & PO-Z]

They screwed us , and they can pay for it til the end of time for all most of us care.

What is this referencing?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.


You will probably get tarred and feathered for the comment, but I completely agree with you.


Might be a better spot for this but Pitino to St. John’s or Gtown would be nice for the big East. Especially if (and I think it’s doubtful) nova leaves to big 12

I hate Pitino but that would be an epic hire for either program. Dude can coach basketball.

[GoMuskies]

What is this referencing?

The Great Midwest. Dayton left Xavier in the MCC to join the Great Midwest with UC, Memphis, SLU and a few others. When that trash heap collapsed, Xavier helped UD get into the A-10.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dayton would love for this to happen. Dayton would be a huge upgrade over St John’s.


You will probably get tarred and feathered for the comment, but I completely agree with you.


I'm not sure about the Pitino situation. The guy is 70 and will be 71 when next season begins. Even if he did make the move to St John's or G Town, how long would he even be there?

Coach K went to 75, Boeheim is 78.

Just depends on Pitino. Even if you got 5-6 good years out of him, would be worth it for these two programs dying to get back to relevance.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm not sure I would state it exactly that way, but it is obvious to even the most casual observer that our membership in the Big East trumps their imprisonment in the A10. At a minimum, we pull in conference facilitated media money that they cannot begin to match. We have significantly greater national exposure institutionally via that media agreement. We are aligned with 10 other truly solid citizens, which helps with overall brand awareness and positioning. On that note, the Big East serves to provide other opportunities to its members other than sports, an example being the innovation pitch deck competitions, which Xavier has actually performed very well in.

Overall, Xavier's membership in the Big East is paying dividends with respect to prospective students and with development. Our membership in the Big East continues to elevate us institutionally.

I'm not talking about scheduling them. I'm singularly focused on keeping them out of the Big East to maintain this specific competitive advantage over them.

Would it hurt to "schedule" them in the OOC slate? I don't know that it would hurt anything, but it isn't going to help any party other than them. When it is all said and done, I wouldn't be waiting for the front office, the side office or the back office - I wouldn't be waiting for any office at Xavier - to announce a forthcoming game with VD.

I may be missing something, but it sounds like you just gave all those reasons for the exact reason brew asked about. Keep UD out to hurt them and help Xavier.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The Great Midwest. Dayton left Xavier in the MCC to join the Great Midwest with UC, Memphis, SLU and a few others. When that trash heap collapsed, Xavier helped UD get into the A-10.

Thanks, I figured it was referencing an old conference. Before my time as a fan (at least an old enough one to remember).

So would we then say Xavier screwed UD leaving the A10 for the BE?

[xubrew]

With all the conferences shifting, and it looking more like one of the Pac 12 or Big 12 devouring the other, these super conferences are forming. If that trend comes to fruition, I see it being difficult to schedule as many quality con conference opponents. That would make me nervous with a 9 or 10 team Big East.

The BE could go to 12 teams and still do a round robin.

I think you're right, but I also think that it doesn't have to be that way for the 40is/50ish basketball centric schools and conferences that I kind of made mention of earlier in the thread. I think single divisions of 9 or 10 is ideal for a basketball conference, and if all those conferences and schools/conferences could work together, and work to carve out their own identity, and make basketball the focal point of that identity, then they could collectively address the issue of OOC games in any number of ways.

I know this is more of a wish than an actual outcome that's probable. I mean it's pretty clear that there is no collective interest in working together, especially among specific schools. If anything they'd rather work against each other.

[paulxu]

What would be the point of Dayton in the BE?
It's a small market, and it's covered nicely by X in Cincinnati.
The BE is a power basketball conference with multiple national championships.
It certainly can do better than adding Dayton.

[JTG]

What would be the point of Dayton in the BE?
It's a small market, and it's covered nicely by X in Cincinnati.
The BE is a power basketball conference with multiple national championships.
It certainly can do better than adding Dayton.

I don't want Dayton either. There isn't much to pick from with National cache except Gonzaga or ND sans football. Adding just to be adding Belmont, Davidson, Wichita is foolish. Maybe SLU. I just don't have an answer. I hope the X & BE admins do.

[xubrew]

I don’t think anyone is talking about adding Dayton, or anyone else, unless the Johnnies and Nova leave. And I don’t think anyone really thinks that’s going to happen. It might, but I doubt it.

Then again the Big 12 may reach out to Dayton. I mean, they seem to be contacting everyone else, so why not??

[xudash]

I may be missing something, but it sounds like you just gave all those reasons for the exact reason brew asked about. Keep UD out to hurt them and help Xavier.

You’re not missing anything.

[STL_XUfan]

What would be the point of Dayton in the BE?
It's a small market, and it's covered nicely by X in Cincinnati.
The BE is a power basketball conference with multiple national championships.
It certainly can do better than adding Dayton.
I think market size is meaningless for the Big East while we are with FS1. It doesn’t need to fight to get picked up by cable providers like the pac12 network. All they care about is name brands and compelling basketball. Not sure if dayton or SLU adds to that, but they are two schools that invest in their basketball program and that makes them potentially attractive if we end up needing to add someone.

[Masterofreality]

Dayton being in the Big East (if it were to expand or the conference lost schools) makes perfect sense for the BE. Maybe it isn't good for Xavier individually given their location, but if just considering what is good for the BE as a whole, Dayton would be a good addition.

I would be fine with UD being added. I always liked the rivalry. Never had the hate for them that I did for UC. I don't like them, and hated how we were always their SB in later years, but I didn't hate them and wish only bad for them like UC.

Nope. This would do nothing for the TV market ratings footprint and would move no network needle. If you are gonna go for a Midwest addition, St. Louis is a much more viable alternative.
Frankly, I’m sick of this Dayton addition crap. They do zero to enhance the conference, have no national following and do not add a decent TV market. No one should mistake their inflated opinion of themselves for viability. Keep them begging at scraps.

[Masterofreality]

I think you're right, but I also think that it doesn't have to be that way for the 40is/50ish basketball centric schools and conferences that I kind of made mention of earlier in the thread. I think single divisions of 9 or 10 is ideal for a basketball conference, and if all those conferences and schools/conferences could work together, and work to carve out their own identity, and make basketball the focal point of that identity, then they could collectively address the issue of OOC games in any number of ways.

I know this is more of a wish than an actual outcome that's probable. I mean it's pretty clear that there is no collective interest in working together, especially among specific schools. If anything they'd rather work against each other.

Brian Thornton as WAC Commissioner has a great idea as to scheduling for leagues like his. It could be extended, and very possibly will be if these super conference scenarios play out. Sometimes change is forced.

[Masterofreality]

Thanks, I figured it was referencing an old conference. Before my time as a fan (at least an old enough one to remember).

So would we then say Xavier screwed UD leaving the A10 for the BE?

No. Despite the fact that they screwed the MCC, Xavier came to their rescue when the Cryers weren’t invited to Conference USA. We went to bat for them to get into the A10. Plus, the Big East wanted long term SUCCESSFUL programs to join, not self inflated mediocrity with coaches like Purnell and Gregory. They made their own mess despite their 13,000 red sweatervested blue hairs whining.
Enough. Let them wallow in mediocrity. Ungrateful Cretins.

[XUGRAD80]

X didn’t screw anyone when they joined the BE. There were 7 schools that left the football schools and they chose 3 other schools to join them. I’m sure that they considered UD at that time and decided not to include them. Xavier didn’t ruin the A10 by leaving and the league didn’t fall apart when they left.

I don’t see any way that BE schools leave to join a football centric league where they won’t get a full share of the money because they don’t play football at that level. BUT if anyone ever did leave, I’m not sure that UD would be the first choice to replace them. St. Louis could be a strong candidate though.

[nuts4xu]

It is 8:27 am on February 27, 2023

and dayton still sucks.

I have made a similar post on this and other message boards since the dawn of the message board era.

Next time you see Greg Christopher, ask him his feelings on scheduling dayton. Ask him his feelings on adding dayton to the Big East.

You will get a candid answer that paints a very clear picture of why Xavier has zero interest in playing dayton now or adding them to the Big East in the future.

Not only does it not make sense in basketball terms, I just hate those melon humping hay-seeds. I hope Rudy the flyer loses the horizon and flys directly the side wall of UD arena.

[paulxu]

If he's got a seaplane, he could land safely in the drainage.

[xubrew]

It is 8:27 am on February 27, 2023

and dayton still sucks.

I have made a similar post on this and other message boards since the dawn of the message board era.

Next time you see Greg Christopher, ask him his feelings on scheduling dayton. Ask him his feelings on adding dayton to the Big East.

You will get a candid answer that paints a very clear picture of why Xavier has zero interest in playing dayton now or adding them to the Big East in the future.

Not only does it not make sense in basketball terms, I just hate those melon humping hay-seeds. I hope Rudy the flyer loses the horizon and flys directly the side wall of UD arena.

I bet it's just another version of the same thing that the other 100+ schools say about the teams they don't want to play. As I've stated before, if that's how he feels then I'd rather it not be stated out loud because even if the diehard fans and donors buy it, it will still sound ridiculous to the vast majority of people. It always does.

I find it very amusing, and also very telling, how there is way more emphasis on how Dayton won't be joining the Big East, and how Xavier won't even be scheduling them at all, than there is on Villanova and Saint John's being approached by the Big 12 and possibly leaving the Big East in the first place. That's really what the conversation should be about. Very little has been said about it, and almost nothing has been said about why it actually does make sense for the Big 12 would want them in the first place even though they don't play football. There is a reason, and it makes complete sense. No one has even speculated as to what the Big 12 might be willing to offer them. It could end up being rather substantial depending just how much they feel they can gain by adding them. Hell, they may be discussing the possibility of adding as many as SIX basketball schools! All of whom have significant followings within significant markets.

But, who cares? All that matters to most people is that Dayton isn't joining the Big East and Xavier isn't playing Dayton. We care an awful lot about making sure everyone understands we don't care about Dayton.

[zippin']

I think the biggest threat to X/the BE isn't the B12 trying to poach Nova/St John's/UCONN, but the ACC collapsing and schools moving there as a "We have football but really only care about basketball" conference. I think it is much more likely UCONN moves to the ACC in that scenario than going to the B12. On the flip side, maybe the BE would be able to poach Pitt and Syracuse from the collapsing ACC, but who knows. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 3-4 years, and it's pretty scary for X tbh. I would really like to think St Johns and Nova wouldn't leave the BE since they're charter members, but money talks.

[xubrew]

I think the biggest threat to X/the BE isn't the B12 trying to poach Nova/St John's/UCONN, but the ACC collapsing and schools moving there as a "We have football but really only care about basketball" conference. I think it is much more likely UCONN moves to the ACC in that scenario than going to the B12. On the flip side, maybe the BE would be able to poach Pitt and Syracuse from the collapsing ACC, but who knows. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 3-4 years, and it's pretty scary for X tbh. I would really like to think St Johns and Nova wouldn't leave the BE since they're charter members, but money talks.

I think UConn wants into the ACC. Whether the ACC wants them is questionable, and the answer to that question (at least for right now) is probably no.

I don't think the Big 12 really cares primarily about either football or basketball. Their primary focus is a conference network, and collecting carriage fees from distributors, and raising those fees as much as possible by getting it on as many non-premium tiers as possible in as many big markets as possible. If a 'basketball school' can help them do that, then they'll court them. If a football powerhouse can help them do that, they'll court them as well. But, they really don't care either way. They just want their network as widely distributed as possible so they can collect as many fees as possible.

But even if the Big East does get completely and totally raided, Dayton isn't joining! And Xavier isn't scheduling them! So, no one needs to worry about a thing!!

[Masterofreality]

I bet it's just another version of the same thing that the other 100+ schools say about the teams they don't want to play.

I find it very amusing, and also very telling, how there is way more emphasis on how Dayton won't be joining the Big East, and how Xavier won't even be scheduling them at all, than there is on Villanova and Saint John's being approached by the Big 12 and possibly leaving the Big East in the first place. That's really what the conversation should be about. Very little has been said about it, and almost nothing has been said about why it actually does make sense for the Big 12 would want them in the first place even though they don't play football. There is a reason, and it makes complete sense. No one has even speculated as to what the Big 12 might be willing to offer them. It could end up being rather substantial depending just how much they feel they can gain by adding them. Hell, they may be discussing the possibility of adding as many as SIX basketball schools! All of whom have significant followings within significant markets.

But, who cares? All that matters to most people is that Dayton isn't joining the Big East and Xavier isn't playing Dayton. We care an awful lot about making sure everyone understands we don't care about Dayton.

VILLANOVA is not joining the B12. No, nein, negatory.
Take that off the table.

[xubrew]

VILLANOVA is not joining the B12. No, nein, negatory.
Take that off the table.

Yeah, I saw where you said that someone told you that they weren't. I'm guessing they won't, or at the very least don't have any plans to at the moment, but you have to at least acknowledge how substantial the offer could end up being before just deciding there is no way that it could ever happen just because someone told you it wouldn't. I mean...no one at any point has even pointed out why it is the Big 12 would even want them, and or speculated just how badly they might want them and what they may be willing to offer them in order to get them. Some people did say that they wouldn't go to the Big 12 for a partial share. Well, what if it ISN'T just a partial share??

[bleedXblue]

Any program at any time could move conferences. To suggest otherwise is just pompous and short sided.

[zippin']

Any program at any time could move conferences. To suggest otherwise is just pompous and short sided.

Xavier to the SEC confirmed.

[xubrew]

Do you know what Brett Yormark did before he became commissioner of the Big 12?? He worked for Jay-Z. I know he's worked in sports before, but not really on the administrative side. I do not think his motives and goals for the Big 12 are the same as what people are speculating them to be. I think he sees it as if it were an entertainment and network distribution project. So, when you look at it like that, then he might be willing to offer schools that don't have football huge chunks, if not full shares, in order to be able to distribute this new network in those markets so his project can succeed. He probably doesn't even care if they're good at basketball or not. He may not even like football or basketball for all I know.

[paulxu]

Hell, they may be discussing the possibility of adding as many as SIX basketball schools! All of whom have significant followings within significant markets.

Haven't we seen this movie before?

[xubrew]

Haven't we seen this movie before?

Not really, no. We've definitely seen the poster art before, but the actual movie is different. Conference networks, and conferences looking to expand for the sole purpose of collecting distribution rights and going into markets that are on opposite sides of the continent is actually relatively new.

[Seven Eighths]

http://https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/ncaa-football/college-football-expansion-big-ten-targeting-pac-12-schools

This would kill the PAC 12.

[GoMuskies]

http://https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/ncaa-football/college-football-expansion-big-ten-targeting-pac-12-schools

This would kill the PAC 12.

I think this from the article is pretty funny: "Students from the two L.A. schools will have to travel a minimum of 1,300 miles to play road games, with Nebraska being the closest Big Ten opponent geographically. That very real problem has inspired officials inside the Big Ten to consider adding more West Coast members to ease some of those travel requirements."

LA to Eugene: 855 miles. OK, that helps a smidge. LA to Seattle: 1135 miles. Yeah, that doesn't help at all. But good attempt at including a reason that doesn't sound like it's completely related to money/destroying the competition.

[Seven Eighths]

I think this from the article is pretty funny: "Students from the two L.A. schools will have to travel a minimum of 1,300 miles to play road games, with Nebraska being the closest Big Ten opponent geographically. That very real problem has inspired officials inside the Big Ten to consider adding more West Coast members to ease some of those travel requirements."

LA to Eugene: 855 miles. OK, that helps a smidge. LA to Seattle: 1135 miles. Yeah, that doesn't help at all. But good attempt at including a reason that doesn't sound like it's completely related to money/destroying the competition.

I see an eventual SEC with a north, south, east and west pod system and same for the B10.

[paulxu]

Not really, no. We've definitely seen the poster art before, but the actual movie is different. Conference networks, and conferences looking to expand for the sole purpose of collecting distribution rights and going into markets that are on opposite sides of the continent is actually relatively new.

I was referring to this...which is the converse of the current discussions, but headed in a similar vein.


The Big East was founded in 1979 with the primary interest of creating a strong basketball conference. In 1991, the Big East elected to become a football conference as well. Miami, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia and Rutgers joined the conference that year.

[xubrew]

I was referring to this...which is the converse of the current discussions, but headed in a similar vein.

I still think this is different. I don't think the leadership at the top of the Big 12 is really looking at becoming either a football or a basketball conference per say. I think they're looking at becoming an entertainment network (more or less) that is in search of wide distribution.

[Xville]

There are some preliminary discussions/rumor of acc and pac joining forces. Makes a whole lot of sense, don’t think either would survive on their own so might as well join forces and try to be viable

[GoMuskies]

There are some preliminary discussions/rumor of acc and pac joining forces. Makes a whole lot of sense, don’t think either would survive on their own so might as well join forces and try to be viable

That's the non-Washington and Oregon Pac-12 combining with the non-UNC, Clemson, FSU, and Miami ACC. So.....yuck.

[xubrew]

That's the non-Washington and Oregon Pac-12 combining with the non-UNC, Clemson, FSU, and Miami ACC. So.....yuck.

Georgia Tech v Cal would become an epic rivalry.

[GoMuskies]

Georgia Tech v Cal would become an epic rivalry.

I'm partial to Louisville/Washington State, myself. But I'll still stay up late for BC/Stanford!

[xubrew]

I really am starting to wonder if college basketball is going to make it. I mean...I know it will always be there. It's not just going to completely disappear. But it may digress into what college baseball currently is. A good product that's big at a few places, but only a few, and not all that important on a national level.

[xubrew]

I'm partial to Louisville/Washington State, myself. But I'll still stay up late for BC/Stanford!

All great rivalries that will bring college sports into a new era of awesomeness!!!

[Xville]

I really am starting to wonder if college basketball is going to make it. I mean...I know it will always be there. It's not just going to completely disappear. But it may digress into what college baseball currently is. A good product that's big at a few places, but only a few, and not all that important on a national level.

I really don’t think college basketball is all the important on the national level. Imo it’s been a regional thing for well over a decade now. People care about it for two weeks nationally, and that’s about it

[xubrew]

I really don’t think college basketball is all the important on the national level. Imo it’s been a regional thing for well over a decade now. People care about it for two weeks nationally, and that’s about it

I agree with this, but it is at least currently popular all over the country. It's just that everyone pretty watches their own teams and not much else. For college baseball most people don't even watch their own teams. That's kind of what I was getting at. I'm betting there are a lot of people who really like Xavier, and really like baseball, but yet almost never watch Xavier's baseball team.

[Xville]

That's the non-Washington and Oregon Pac-12 combining with the non-UNC, Clemson, FSU, and Miami ACC. So.....yuck.

True… maybe they could work fast and then convince the “important” schools to stay with new tv/media deals.

[GoMuskies]

I really don’t think college basketball is all the important on the national level. Imo it’s been a regional thing for well over a decade now. People care about it for two weeks nationally, and that’s about it

https://media.tenor.com/7Syr-HlRBXIAAAAC/thats-true-kramer.gif

[Xville]

I agree with this, but it is at least currently popular all over the country. It's just that everyone pretty watches their own teams and not much else. For college baseball most people don't even watch their own teams. That's kind of what I was getting at. I'm betting there are a lot of people who really like Xavier, and really like baseball, but yet almost never watch Xavier's baseball team.

Ah gotcha. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t see that happening to basketball. College baseball has never been popular, has it? Other than maybe in the sec?

I just think baseball is way too boring and I think this generation of kids feel the same way. I don’t know if basketball will ever be thought of that way. Again, could be wrong but I don’t see it

[JTG]

I think this from the article is pretty funny: "Students from the two L.A. schools will have to travel a minimum of 1,300 miles to play road games, with Nebraska being the closest Big Ten opponent geographically. That very real problem has inspired officials inside the Big Ten to consider adding more West Coast members to ease some of those travel requirements."

LA to Eugene: 855 miles. OK, that helps a smidge. LA to Seattle: 1135 miles. Yeah, that doesn't help at all. But good attempt at including a reason that doesn't sound like it's completely related to money/destroying the competition.

I'm sure a lot of folks don't realize the massive difference in geography between the East and West coasts. And even the huge difference in distances between the West and Midwest. IU, Purdue, Ill and Nwestern, MSU, Michigan OSU all within 3 hrs of each other. PAC 12 schools a 2 day drive apart. East coast schools and hour commuter train ride. Until I worked in Raleigh, I didn't realize UNC, Duke and NC State are as close together as X, UC and Miami.

[JTG]

There are some preliminary discussions/rumor of acc and pac joining forces. Makes a whole lot of sense, don’t think either would survive on their own so might as well join forces and try to be viable

The Great A & P Conf.

[xubrew]

Ah gotcha. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t see that happening to basketball. College baseball has never been popular, has it? Other than maybe in the sec?

I just think baseball is way too boring and I think this generation of kids feel the same way. I don’t know if basketball will ever be thought of that way. Again, could be wrong but I don’t see it

I hope you're right. College basketball must be a great game. Despite their best efforts, college presidents, administrators, commissioners, and the NCAA itself hasn't been able to kill it yet.

[GoMuskies]

I hope you're right. College basketball must be a great game. Despite their best efforts, college presidents, administrators, commissioners, and the NCAA itself hasn't been able to kill it yet.

Ha, yeah, 38 years ago the NCAA defied all odds and created the most perfect sporting event in existence. Over the last 38 years, they've been nibbling around the edges of "how can we fuck this up?". Despite their best efforts, tney have so far failed to destroy the NCAA Tournament's greatness, but they'll get it done eventually.

[JTG]

Do you know what Brett Yormark did before he became commissioner of the Big 12?? He worked for Jay-Z. I know he's worked in sports before, but not really on the administrative side. I do not think his motives and goals for the Big 12 are the same as what people are speculating them to be. I think he sees it as if it were an entertainment and network distribution project. So, when you look at it like that, then he might be willing to offer schools that don't have football huge chunks, if not full shares, in order to be able to distribute this new network in those markets so his project can succeed. He probably doesn't even care if they're good at basketball or not. He may not even like football or basketball for all I know.

I can't imagine people on either coast wanting to pay for a Big12 Cowpie Network just to see Nova & Kansas & Gonzaga for 10 weeks in winter.

[xubrew]

I can't imagine people on either coast wanting to pay for a Big12 Cowpie Network just to see Nova & Kansas & Gonzaga for 10 weeks in winter.

You can't?? Well if that's the case then this certainly doesn't bode well for the Big East's next TV deal whether they remain in the Big East or not!!

I can imagine people in Philadelphia wanting to watch Nova, people in NYC wanting to watch Saint John's and/or UConn, and people in Seattle wanting to watch Gonzaga.

And just so I'm clear, the 'PEOPLE' in those markets wouldn't have to pay for the network if it was available on a basic tier. At least not directly. The providers would, and that's what the conference would want.

[xudash]

I bet it's just another version of the same thing that the other 100+ schools say about the teams they don't want to play. As I've stated before, if that's how he feels then I'd rather it not be stated out loud because even if the diehard fans and donors buy it, it will still sound ridiculous to the vast majority of people. It always does.

I find it very amusing, and also very telling, how there is way more emphasis on how Dayton won't be joining the Big East, and how Xavier won't even be scheduling them at all, than there is on Villanova and Saint John's being approached by the Big 12 and possibly leaving the Big East in the first place. That's really what the conversation should be about. Very little has been said about it, and almost nothing has been said about why it actually does make sense for the Big 12 would want them in the first place even though they don't play football. There is a reason, and it makes complete sense. No one has even speculated as to what the Big 12 might be willing to offer them. It could end up being rather substantial depending just how much they feel they can gain by adding them. Hell, they may be discussing the possibility of adding as many as SIX basketball schools! All of whom have significant followings within significant markets.

But, who cares? All that matters to most people is that Dayton isn't joining the Big East and Xavier isn't playing Dayton. We care an awful lot about making sure everyone understands we don't care about Dayton.

brew, I don't agree with your bolded statement. The majority of the primary constituents of Xavier, Xavier Athletics and Xavier basketball, in particular, don't find this position to be ridiculous. The BoT, PAC and Xavier's leadership certainly don't consider keeping VD in the mid-major freezer and out of the BE ridiculous. I also would venture to state that most Big East fans understand our position, as Villanova would never allow another Philly school into the BE, while Creighton wants no part of Wichita State in a conference with them, as two similar examples of dispositions that are based on strategic advantage vis-a-vis "prospective" member schools. Otherwise, the "vast majority of people" don't care.

Frankly, the primary reason that we're still discussing Dayton here at all is because you keep bringing them up. There are plenty of good basketball games involving Xavier as it stands now. In the grand scheme of things, Dayton is firmly in the rear view mirror. I doubt that will be changing anytime soon. And allow me to reiterate that this is NOT just about basketball. You may not like that, or you may believe that is silly or whatever, but it truly is more than just about basketball, and it is that way for good and legitimate reasons.

As for everything else, in terms of conference realignment and which programs may or may not enter a revolving BE Doorway, a few points:

1. MEDIA AGREEMENT + STABILITY + ALIGNMENT.

It is widely believed that the BE's next media agreement will increase, and possibly increase handsomely. $7mm to $8mm per school per year has been bandied about, and that is with the current 11 members. It may all be relative, but I'll submit that the Big East is a stable conference at this point. It certainly is well positioned as the preeminent basketball-centric conference in the nation, and it is regarded as a power conference in basketball. There isn't one program that is dying to leave the Big East, and that includes UConn for a number of reasons. UConn would be the 'most likely" to leave, but they have a host of obstacles confronting them at this point when it comes to going back to an all-sports conference - a stable all sports conference. We couldn't do much better on the alignment front: 10 private universities and one public university that happens to have been a key former member of the conference.

2. Media Agreement Outcomes Will Mostly Dictate What Transpires From Here

The football schools are still primarily solving for football, because football brings the most money. The math has to work - any addition has to be accretive to the overall deal. That is now very hard to accomplish as we are this far into realignment activity. I can choose to not like Brett Yormark for trying to damage the Big East, but I certainly understand his motives and appreciate his creativity. Nonetheless, though the Big 12 was rather savvy in locking up its most recent media deal, it is still in a relatively unstable position when it comes to what may develop between the Pac 10 and the ACC individually or together, and it otherwise has been locked into solid second fiddle status by the B1G and SEC. Can Yormark deliver a media agreement at a meaningful margin to any Big East school and then otherwise deliver stability to that prospective member? I doubt it. He sure as hell cannot bring up the notion of alignment to a basketball school.

I'm not sitting here comfortably believing that the Big East is safe at this point. I do believe that we are on solid footing, awaiting a clear signal on how well positioned we'll be for moving forward, once we get to an announcement on our next media agreement. We are a very unique and very well positioned thing for college basketball moving forward. If we can keep this particular band together through our next media agreement, then we'll be solid for many years to come.

Otherwise, look at it this way: if we ever have to dip into the A10 tank for replacements, then we will have backed up as a conference. There truly is no other way to look at it.

[xubrew]

brew, I don't agree with your bolded statement. The majority of the primary constituents of Xavier, Xavier Athletics and Xavier basketball, in particular, don't find this position to be ridiculous. The BoT, PAC and Xavier's leadership certainly don't consider keeping VD in the mid-major freezer and out of the BE ridiculous. I also would venture to state that most Big East fans understand our position, as Villanova would never allow another Philly school into the BE, while Creighton wants no part of Wichita State in a conference with them, as two similar examples of dispositions that are based on strategic advantage vis-a-vis "prospective" member schools. Otherwise, the "vast majority of people" don't care.

Frankly, the primary reason that we're still discussing Dayton here at all is because you keep bringing them up. There are plenty of good basketball games involving Xavier as it stands now. In the grand scheme of things, Dayton is firmly in the rear view mirror. I doubt that will be changing anytime soon. And allow me to reiterate that this is NOT just about basketball. You may not like that, or you may believe that is silly or whatever, but it truly is more than just about basketball, and it is that way for good and legitimate reasons.

Dash, I tried to make it clear that the people I'm talking about aren't the same ones that you're listing here. The casual fan and the bandwagon fan, which is the vast majority of people, is who I am referring to. They will (and do) think that is ridiculous.

I'm also not the one that always brings them up. I did not bring them up in this thread. I will oftentimes respond when others, including you, who bring them up, but I want you to point out how I am always the one that initially brings them up. Can you even find ONE example in the last six or seven years where I was the one that initially brought them up?? If anything I make it a point NOT to bring them up in any context because I know whatever it is that I do want to discuss will just get entirely derailed. Case in point...THIS THREAD!!

What I actually DID bring up was how the Big 12 reached out to at least two Big East schools and talked about why I thought they were doing it. I actually tried multiple times to steer the conversation in that direction because I think it is both interesting and important. And, once again, here YOU are, bringing up Dayton, and how Xavier won't play them, and how they won't be in the Big East. AGAIN!! The thing is...I'm not under any impression that this isn't the case. A LOT of schools have someone that they'd rather not play (which was another point that I made), so I don't need it explained to me. I totally get why they don't play and who it is that's making that decision.

Do you have any thoughts at all on Brett Yormark? and how he comes from an untraditional background? and what direction he appears to be wanting to take things? and how the language of their new media deal is worded in a way that seems to anticipate further expansion? and how Big East schools might interest them?

Or, are you just going to underline...AGAIN...that Xavier is not going to play Dayton and that Dayton isn't joining the Big East??

[GoMuskies]

It did take until the 4th page of this thread before the Humpers were mentioned. I definitely would have guessed earlier.

Well done to us!

[xudash]

brew, let's leave it at this: I'm not going to make any blanket statements about what casual and bandwagon fans think. I do believe that most of them probably don't care about Xavier playing Dayton, but whatever. What casual and bandwagon basketball fans think is not driving the decisioning on Victory Parkway.

I apologize for stating that you always bring them up. But in the post I responded to, you wrote:

I find it very amusing, and also very telling, how there is way more emphasis on how Dayton won't be joining the Big East, and how Xavier won't even be scheduling them at all, ...

But, who cares? All that matters to most people is that Dayton isn't joining the Big East and Xavier isn't playing Dayton. We care an awful lot about making sure everyone understands we don't care about Dayton.

You brought them up in that post. I was responding to that. Beyond that, I moved on to discuss things in my post having to do with conference stability, or not, and media agreements.

My message to you is that we will have gone into reverse if the Big East finds itself adding A10 schools. Simply put, and assuming the Big East continues to thrive via its existing 11 members moving forward to the negotiation of our next media agreement, there is not one A10 school that can deliver an accretive boost to the new media agreement as a result of their inclusion, if in fact we come in at $7mm+ per school per annum. For that matter, I don't believe any A10 school would fetch the existing level of approx. $4mm per school. As it presently stands, our best option is to hold steady at 11 until something breaks with Gonzaga or on the football side or both. Obviously, that assumes such shifting doesn't break against us, to your point about Yormark's efforts, etc.

My thoughts on Yormark involve my general thoughts on college football. At least financially, and therefore to a meaningful degree when it comes to competitiveness, the future appears to be about an expanded playoff that will benefit a larger group of schools in terms of an improved ability to crack into the playoff picture. That will help the Big 14, the ACC and whatever comes of the Pac(n) play for something other than a weed eater bowl every season. On the other hand - and again don't look at what TCU did to Michigan this season; this will take some time to gell - we're going to end up with certain B1G and SEC schools in the semi's most years and otherwise dominating the championship game. On that note, you can look at what Georgia did to TCU.

As for Yormark and his creative strategy to cast a coast to coast media net via a select group of football and basketball additions, I believe it is a bridge too far for him, when it comes to attracting Big East schools away from the Big East. I have to believe that the very quiet conversations are already going on between New York (Big East officials) and Fox for the next round. Scenarios are being played out. Media consultants must have an idea of what we'll be looking at in a little over a year when all this heats up again. There has been some thought behind that $7mm+ figure. I certainly can't speak for Nova's President or AD, but they would have to consider the difference in payouts between the two conferences, as well as what I would consider the harsh reality of leaving a fit-like-a-glove conference like the Big East for games in Waco, Texas, Iowa City, IA, and everywhere else, and doing that all over as a basketball school membered into a football conference. And, as I've pointed out before, the football members of the Big 14 will be primarily motivated to earmark as much of the media funding towards football as possible. Yes, there are data that enable calculations of which sport is doing what in terms of viewership and money, but there also are stressful politics of survival going on here. We've seen this play before with the old BE prior to 2013.

So, Yormark is creative. Good for him. The Big East front office is pretty sharp, too.

[XUGRAD80]

When you take a look at how much value a school brings to a typical conference, the execs break it down to 80% of the value is from football and 20% is from basketball. The TV folks, and the conference leaders, don’t really care bout BB that much. The only thing that is important about BB, from the TV networks point of view, is the NCAA tournament. The viewership numbers (on a national basis) are just too small. The only thing that is important about college sports, from the TV networks point of view, is how much they can sell advertising for. That’s based on how much a share of the TV they can get to turn to their product. A conference could have the greatest lineup of basketball teams ever, and it still wouldn’t be a big enough draw for the TV people to pony up the same kind of money that the SEC or Big10 can demand for their football broadcast rights. If the B12 is spending any time on trying to build a super BB conference (which I doubt they are), it’s not anything compared to the efforts that they are putting into building a better football conference. Football is the national draw, not basketball.

[xubrew]

You brought them up in that post. I was responding to that. Beyond that, I moved on to discuss things in my post having to do with conference stability, or not, and media agreements.

Well, to be fair, what I was doing was bringing up how everyone else kept bringing them up and how that was sidetracking the conversation. But, to also be fair, I guess this does constitute at least indirectly bringing them up.


For that matter, I don't believe any A10 school would fetch the existing level of approx

Totally agree. I don't think any of the current schools will leave, but even if two of them did I still wouldn't be in favor of adding anyone be it from the A10 or from anywhere else.


So, Yormark is creative. Good for him. The Big East front office is pretty sharp, too.


If I'm honest with myself I'm more of a dinosaur who would prefer if things went back to where they used to be instead of where they appear to be going. I personally hate what he's doing and hope that it doesn't work. A conference that's seemingly being built for the entire purpose of getting a network created and distributed with almost no regard given to the actual athletics part of it is something I'd rather see not work. I wouldn't call him creative so much as I'd say he's big on marketing and small on administrating, which isn't how most administrators are.

[xubrew]

When you take a look at how much value a school brings to a typical conference, the execs break it down to 80% of the value is from football and 20% is from basketball. The TV folks, and the conference leaders, don’t really care bout BB that much. The only thing that is important about BB, from the TV networks point of view, is the NCAA tournament. The viewership numbers (on a national basis) are just too small. The only thing that is important about college sports, from the TV networks point of view, is how much they can sell advertising for. That’s based on how much a share of the TV they can get to turn to their product. A conference could have the greatest lineup of basketball teams ever, and it still wouldn’t be a big enough draw for the TV people to pony up the same kind of money that the SEC or Big10 can demand for their football broadcast rights. If the B12 is spending any time on trying to build a super BB conference (which I doubt they are), it’s not anything compared to the efforts that they are putting into building a better football conference. Football is the national draw, not basketball.

I very seriously doubt that's how Yormark breaks it down. He's different. Why did he even reach out to schools that don't have football teams then? I also don't think that the only thing he cares about is selling advertising. He seemingly cares VERY MUCH about distribution and carriage fees. I almost think that he doesn't really mind if anyone is actually watching the network at all so long as he gets a fee for every subscriber that gets the channel, and if it's available on a non-premium tier in several major markets, that's a lot of people.

[xudash]

Well, to be fair, what I was doing was bringing up how everyone else kept bringing them up and how that was sidetracking the conversation. But, to also be fair, I guess this does constitute at least indirectly bringing them up.



If I'm honest with myself I'm more of a dinosaur who would prefer if things went back to where they used to be instead of where they appear to be going.
I personally hate what he's doing and hope that it doesn't work. A conference that's seemingly being built for the entire purpose of getting a network created and distributed with almost no regard given to the actual athletics part of it is something I'd rather see not work. I wouldn't call him creative so much as I'd say he's big on marketing and small on administrating, which isn't how most administrators are.

Couldn't agree with you more, especially given how the Big East has become such a great "product" - it has staying power as it exists.

It's funny, or it isn't funny, given the stakes involved, but the old adage, "if it's meant to work out, it will work out" may still have some juice in it. Xavier spent over three decades building itself into position to be the Number One pick of the C7 for a revamped Big East. We earned that, after we were fortunate enough to have the C7 finally have enough of the football tug-of-war in the old Big East. Perhaps Yormark is simply thinking outside the box due more to his mandate to save the Big14 in some viable form. So, yes, perhaps it's not so much about creativity than it is about being reduced to playing whatever chess pieces you have left. Is it meant to work out that the Big14 will raid the Big East for basketball schools? That outcome seems like it would be like a shotgun wedding. I don't believe anything like that would work out. Then again, that's why we'll continue to get to sit around and watch how this plays out over the next couple years.

[JTG]

I very seriously doubt that's how Yormark breaks it down. He's different. Why did he even reach out to schools that don't have football teams then? I also don't think that the only thing he cares about is selling advertising. He seemingly cares VERY MUCH about distribution and carriage fees. I almost think that he doesn't really mind if anyone is actually watching the network at all so long as he gets a fee for every subscriber that gets the channel, and if it's available on a non-premium tier in several major markets, that's a lot of people.

Does this guy fashion himself as a network executive. Is he going to have a Movie of the Week, Reality shows, Cop shows and Sitcoms?

[xubrew]

Does this guy fashion himself as a network executive. Is he going to have a Movie of the Week, Reality shows, Cop shows and Sitcoms?

Perhaps closer to that than what we've probably ever seen before.

I can say with quite a bit of certainty that if they did reach out to Saint John's it wasn't because of how great they are in basketball. It was because that their following within the NYC market is just big enough to where if there was a conference network and they were on it, that the cable and satellite providers would make the network available in that market without it being on a premium tier.

And I seriously doubt they really cared about how good Villanova actually is either. Or that they don't play football.



Does what I'm saying at least make sense to anyone?? I'm not asking whether or not you like it or think it will work. I'm asking if I'm at least explaining what it is I think the Big 12 is going to try and do, and why they really don't care that those two schools don't play football.

[JTG]

Perhaps closer to that than what we've probably ever seen before.

I can say with quite a bit of certainty that if they did reach out to Saint John's it wasn't because of how great they are in basketball. It was because that their following within the NYC market is just big enough to where if there was a conference network and they were on it, that the cable and satellite providers would make the network available in that market without it being on a premium tier.

And I seriously doubt they really cared about how good Villanova actually is either. Or that they don't play football.



Does what I'm saying at least make sense to anyone?? I'm not asking whether or not you like it or think it will work. I'm asking if I'm at least explaining what it is I think the Big 12 is going to try and do, and why they really don't care that those two schools don't play football.

In the Carnesecca glory days maybe, but do the Johnnies have any fan following now, or do people just go to their MSG games to see the visitors.

[GoMuskies]

Does what I'm saying at least make sense to anyone??

What you're saying sounds stupid as hell, so I suspect you're eplaining it perfectly.

[Masterofreality]

I just want to point out that this entire ludicrous thread is based upon “rumors” quoted from ANOTHER MESSAGE BOARD!!
There has been zero commentary from any credible news or sports organization that this is even a thing.
If I am wrong, and I’ll admit I could be, somebody please post a link to a story. Pete Thamel posted an article about the Big 12 “possibly” reaching out to Gonzaga. But no mention of VILLANOVA or St. John’s. Some guy from “Fansided” and another guy from “Heartland Sports”- a totally Big 12 dependent site-then took that morsel and both started speculating on who else they may add. That’s it. And that is called “Clickbait”.
The 24/7 Board and Fansided have no more credibility than some guy sitting in a bar spouting iish off, despite the fact you have to pay for that iish.
The 24/7 guys also rate recruits. That should tell you something about how reliable they are. Heartland Sports owes its existence to the Big 12 with a vested interest in it surviving. I don’t call that credible.
Nova isn’t leaving the Big East for a partial $8 million payout when, like Dash points out, they will get that, or more, in the next Media negotiation.
Football rules the roost. Basketball is a throw in.

[XUGRAD80]

Would adding a few bb schools make a B12 network popular enough for it to become a profitable venture? There was a B12 network in the past, and they closed it down because it wasn’t more profitable than what they could earn by selling the rights. It ran from 2008 to 2014. It closed down after it sold the rights to broadcast its games to ESPN. They have a great relationship with ESPN and Fox right now. I don’t think that they would want to jeopardize that relationship (and the multi millions of dollars they are getting) by starting the network back up. I understand that the comish wants to develop the B12 as a “national” conference with a footprint across all 4 time zones. I just don’t buy the idea that they do that by increasing the BB schools. BB is only important during March and they already are good enough to be a big part of March Madness. I’ve not heard or read anything about the B12 having a desire to revive the network. Link?

[xubrew]

The old Big 12 Network was owned by ESPN and it was more of a production company than an actual channel. I believed they produced games and sold them through syndication to stations within those markets, and also made them available on their pay per view package (ESPN Gameplan and Full Court, which eventually just got rolled into ESPN Plus). It didn’t REALLY go away so much as it just got rolled into ESPN Plus. Starting it back up wouldn’t jeopardize its relationship with ESPN because like the ACCN and SECN, ESPN will own the network along with the confernece and play a major roll in getting it distributed and collecting their share of the fees.

Now, there are no links that I know of that specifically address the launch of the new network, but I can’t think of any reason ESPN would have paid substantially more money than what they were paying before, ESPECIALLY AFTER Texas and Oklahoma had said they were leaving, unless they felt they were going to get yet another channel that they can distribute and add it to their already ridiculously long list of channels. The Ocho was once a joke, but I think this would actually give them eight.

[zippin']

I do really think that the next round of conference realignment has the chance to be devastating for X. This thread makes me sad. D:

[xavierj]

I do really think that the next round of conference realignment has the chance to be devastating for X. This thread makes me sad. D:

Not at all. Xavier will be fine and the big east will stay intact. People are just throwing crap against the wall. The Big East will stay a basketball only power. If they lose anyone it will be UCONN. The rest of teams are not going anywhere.

[paulxu]

When people talk about basketball not drawing the eyes to the TV like football, it makes good sense. Even though there are a lot more basketball games to a season. And when they say the eyes on small college BB are minuscule, that makes sense.
But they must be desperate for content. Why else are there more and more channels carrying the stuff? Guess its the carriage fees.
The addition of channels like ESPN+, where everybody's games are on must be profitable somehow. You can watch Podunk State play every game like Wofford. And they only have 1,800 students.

[xubrew]

Not at all. Xavier will be fine and the big east will stay intact. People are just throwing crap against the wall. The Big East will stay a basketball only power. If they lose anyone it will be UCONN. The rest of teams are not going anywhere.

I hope you're right, and I think you are, but a lot of the crap people have been throwing against the wall for the last...oh...fifteen years or so, has been sticking to it. It seems like every year or two there's someone trying to raid someone else, or a new thing that everyone feels like they have to have, or a new motive that results in everyone wanting to get more people onto their ship and/or wanting to jump off of the ship that they're on. Perhaps it's always been that way to an extent. But a lot of things that were literally in tact for over 100 years have been completely ripped apart in the last 10-15 years. And it sucks in far more ways than it is good. And I think the overall appeal of college sports, and college basketball in particular, has suffered and will continue to suffer.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Not at all. Xavier will be fine and the big east will stay intact. People are just throwing crap against the wall. The Big East will stay a basketball only power. If they lose anyone it will be UCONN. The rest of teams are not going anywhere.

There is a world where the BE stays in tact and the college sports landscape changes so much it is still bad for Xavier. Worst case scenario is the major conferences forming a few super conferences and breaking away from the NCAA and everyone else.

[xubrew]

There is a world where the BE stays in tact and the college sports landscape changes so much it is still bad for Xavier. Worst case scenario is the major conferences forming a few super conferences and breaking away from the NCAA and everyone else.

I was worried about this for the longest time. I don't want to go so far to say that there is no way it could happen, but I will say that I personally no longer think that it will. The thing is, they kind of already have left the NCAA. They can now do what they want, so leaving doesn't really get them all that much that they don't already have. So, it's not so much a question of whether or not they could leave so much as it is a question of being in the present day landscape, what would the point of leaving really be??

But I got used to this idea a while ago, which is part of the reason why I'm probably more of an alarmist than most people....

In college athletics, if someone wants something, and they think they can get it by stealing it from you....they absolutely will. They also don't care what gets broken in the process. So what if conferences fold? So what if schools are left out in the cold? So what if long term rivalries fall apart? So what if March Madness gets ruined? They don't care.

So, if someone, be it the Big 12 or anyone else, thinks they can get something that they want by stealing it from the Big East (or anyone else)...they will absolutely try. That is something I have absolutely learned in the past fifteen years. I don't think it will play out that way in this particular case, but I wouldn't dismiss it as just throwing shit at the wall either because look at how much of that shit has actually stuck to the wall since the first round of this whole mess started.

[Masterofreality]

IMO, the “difference” in the other crap sticking to the wall was because it was all about Football. Even the Big East readjustment was due to football, and it sure hasn’t worked out that well for the AAC. ESPN+?? Please!!
Texas & Oklahoma going to the SEC is all about football. UCLA & USC going to the Big 10 is all about Football. The NCAA does not have any real control over Football, other than being granted some rules enforcement duties by the conferences, but they do control Basketball through an extremely lucrative Golden Goose called the NCAA Tournament. Again, IMO, no league in their right mind is going to overly screw with that-other than possibly force more schools to be invited. And at the end of the day, the fact that there is a push for more schools seems to portend that no league or group wants to disband the Tournament. The groups- and more importantly, the media realize what a boon this thing is, at a time of the year where sports programming is at a relative lull. That includes keeping the small school Cinderellas deeply involved. No large group would be that collectively stupid to ruin it.

[GoMuskies]

No large group would be that collectively stupid to ruin it.

I think this is probably right....unless they see the opportunity to get about 48 cents more out of ruining it and doing something else. They'd scoop up that loose change with a quickness, I'm afraid.

[xubrew]

No large group would be that collectively stupid to ruin it.

HUH?? There is a large group called the Transformation Committee that's quite stupid, and that's talking about doing something that would completely ruin it.

[Masterofreality]

HUH?? There is a large group called the Transformation Committee that's quite stupid, and that's talking about doing something that would completely ruin it.

Hmmmm. “Committee.”
Look I’m not going to dismiss human stupidity but there are a larger group of people that can see clearly.
A “Committee” came up with the idea of the enforcement mechanism after the FBI probes into Coaches. That mechanism, the IARP, turned into an abject failure and was quickly abandoned. I do think that cooler heads will prevail in this case because of media input and billions of dollars at stake for a premier event.

[xubrew]

Hmmmm. “Committee.”
Look I’m not going to dismiss human stupidity but there are a larger group of people that can see clearly.
A “Committee” came up with the idea of the enforcement mechanism after the FBI probes into Coaches. That mechanism, the IARP, turned into an abject failure and was quickly abandoned. I do think that cooler heads will prevail in this case because of media input and billions of dollars at stake for a premier event.

The NCAA is dumber than I can ever possibly explain. It's full of selfish people who do selfish things stupidly. It really is amazing. I'm also a massive soccer fan, and I have no respect at all for FIFA and find them to be far more despicable than the NCAA, but when they do selfish and unethical things, the things they do at least make sense. You can see actual logic and reasoning behind the unethical things that they do. The NCAA is just dumb!

[Masterofreality]

The NCAA is dumber than I can ever possibly explain. It's full of selfish people who do selfish things stupidly. It really is amazing. I'm also a massive soccer fan, and I have no respect at all for FIFA and find them to be far more despicable than the NCAA, but when they do selfish and unethical things, the things they do at least make sense. You can see actual logic and reasoning behind the unethical things that they do. The NCAA is just dumb!

I think that when Network Executives who give them a Billion plus dollars tell them they are being abjectly stupid, they will see the error of their ways.
To wit: (From the latest NCAA Transformation Committee recommendations)
“ The NCAA board directed sport committees to consider whether bracket expansion is appropriate in their respective sports — in concert with broadcast partners and stakeholders within those sports — and whether changes should be made to bracket composition for championships.”

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/operations/governing-bodies/article/15305485/ncaa-division-i-board-approves-transformation-committees-recommendations

[XUGRAD80]

I do think that eventually there will be a separate organization that organizes and controls the top 64 FOOTBALL teams, including the playoffs. It will be backed by at least 1, if not 2-3 of the major TV networks. There’s just way too much money involved for this not to happen at some point. However, I do feel that BB, including March Madness, and the other sports will continue to be controlled by the NCAA.

I can’t see how the NCAA can prevent this from happening, even though they will try.

[OTRMUSKIE]

The board Finance Committee also approved the creation of a second, 32-team postseason tournament in Division I women's basketball.

That’s what we need another woman’s basketball tournament. If the goal is to see how empty we can make an arena for a sporting event, having another 32 team woman’s basketball tournament is a good place to start.

[Masterofreality]

The board Finance Committee also approved the creation of a second, 32-team postseason tournament in Division I women's basketball.

That’s what we need another woman’s basketball tournament. If the goal is to see how empty we can make an arena for a sporting event, having another 32 team woman’s basketball tournament is a good place to start.

That was merely certifying the already existing “Women’s NIT”. And the tournament is under the auspices of the NIT. Merely an “equity” move.

[waggy]

Watched a vid of Marquettes reg season BE championship. My take is that BE championships have meaning. The BE product is excellent, and I enjoy watching the other games when I can. I hope the conference makes some serious noise in the tourney.

[JTG]

Watched a vid of Marquette. I hope the conference makes some serious noise in the tourney.

Me too. Aside from Nova, there haven't been many stellar performances. And of course, X hasn't been there at all.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Me too. Aside from Nova, there haven't been many stellar performances. And of course, X hasn't been there at all.

I guess you mean recently in regards to X?

nova has carried the conference in tourney success obviously. After that it was X before Steele took over.

Butler has had a run or two to the sweet 16.

The underachievers have been Providence, Creighton, and Marquette. Creighton finally broke through to the sweet 16 recently.

All 5 teams have the ability to make a run. Let's hope we see it.

[xubrew]

Watched a vid of Marquettes reg season BE championship. My take is that BE championships have meaning. The BE product is excellent, and I enjoy watching the other games when I can. I hope the conference makes some serious noise in the tourney.

When it comes to the percentage of games that are exciting, and crazy, and played at a high level, I think the Big East is leading the nation this year. It's not the strongest conference overall, but I bet it leads the nation in lead changes after the last media timeout.

[MHettel]

I guess you mean recently in regards to X?

nova has carried the conference in tourney success obviously. After that it was X before Steele took over.

Butler has had a run or two to the sweet 16.

The underachievers have been Providence, Creighton, and Marquette. Creighton finally broke through to the sweet 16 recently.

All 5 teams have the ability to make a run. Let's hope we see it.

Georgetown hasnt been an underachiever? Or SJU?

Prov, Creighton, Marquette, and SHU all come to mind as being one-and-done in the tourney during XUs tenure in the BE. I also dont recall Butler getting to a couple of Sweet 16s, but that might just be my crappy memory....or maybe yours. Too lazy to look.

But the reality is that SJU and GTown are BY FAR the biggest disappointments in the BE since XU arrived.

I think a reasonable goal for an 11 team conference would be the following: 5 teams a year make the dance. Half the teams make the Sweet 16 each year (over a multi year span). 1 E8 per year. 1 FF every couple (2-3) of years. 1 NC per 10 years.

There could be some people that think 1 NC per decade isnt representative of being 1 of 6 "power" conferences, but take into account our membership size (11) vs some of teh other conferences (12-16 generally) and they just have an advantage in pure numbers.

[xubrew]

I'm also too lazy to look this up, but other than Nova has anyone from the Big East been beyond the Sweet Sixteen other than Xavier since going to its current 10 (and now 11) team format??

EDIT: I remember now that Marquette got to an Elite Eight.

[nuts4xu]

I just want to go on record saying that I believe "Nova and Gonzaga to the B12" is an absolute load of crap.

I know people want to make it a thing, but it really isn't a thing.

Carry on....

[94GRAD]

I just want to go on record saying that I believe "Nova and Gonzaga to the B12" is an absolute load of crap.

I know people want to make it a thing, but it really isn't a thing.

Carry on....

You're going to be wrong on one of those two teams.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Georgetown hasnt been an underachiever? Or SJU?

Prov, Creighton, Marquette, and SHU all come to mind as being one-and-done in the tourney during XUs tenure in the BE. I also dont recall Butler getting to a couple of Sweet 16s, but that might just be my crappy memory....or maybe yours. Too lazy to look.

But the reality is that SJU and GTown are BY FAR the biggest disappointments in the BE since XU arrived.

I think a reasonable goal for an 11 team conference would be the following: 5 teams a year make the dance. Half the teams make the Sweet 16 each year (over a multi year span). 1 E8 per year. 1 FF every couple (2-3) of years. 1 NC per 10 years.

There could be some people that think 1 NC per decade isnt representative of being 1 of 6 "power" conferences, but take into account our membership size (11) vs some of teh other conferences (12-16 generally) and they just have an advantage in pure numbers.

I meant strictly speaking in terms of meeting or exceeding expectations in the tournament.

Since we joined the BE St. John's has only made 2 tourneys and lost in the 1st round and first 4 which their seeds as a 9 and 11 seed.

Georgetown has also only made it twice, as a 4 seed (lost in 2nd round, so yes disappointing) and a 12 seed (after only getting in winning the BE tourney).

Marquette has been 3 times and failed to win a game. (10, 5, and 9 seeds)

Providence has been 6 times and won 3 games. I did forget they finally broke through last year and won 2 and got to the sweet 16. The 5 appearances before they were 1-5. (11, 6, 9, 11, 10, 4 seeds). They lost in the 1st round to UD as a 6 seed in 2015

Creighton has been 5 times and won 4 games. It was 2 years ago they finally broke through to the sweet 16. (3, 6, 8, 5, 9 seeds).

Butler has been 4 times and has 5 wins. They have won at least 1 game every appearance but it was only 1 sweet 16 appearance since joining BE, I was thinking it was two. (6, 9, 4, 10 seeds).

I forgot to mention Seton Hall who might be the worst offender in terms of lack of success when making the tournament. They have been 5 times and have 1 win. (6, 9, 8, 10, 8 seeds).

I think the expectations you laid out are reasonable. 1 NC every decade for a conference of only 11 is very reasonable. Hell, its been what, 23 years and counting for the Big Ten?

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm also too lazy to look this up, but other than Nova has anyone from the Big East been beyond the Sweet Sixteen other than Xavier since going to its current 10 (and now 11) team format??

EDIT: I remember now that Marquette got to an Elite Eight.

Marquette has not won a tourney game since Xavier joined the Big East.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm also too lazy to look this up, but other than Nova has anyone from the Big East been beyond the Sweet Sixteen other than Xavier since going to its current 10 (and now 11) team format??

EDIT: I remember now that Marquette got to an Elite Eight.

The Elite 8 appearance was the year before Xavier joined.

[Xville]

Marquette has not won a tourney game since Xavier joined the Big East.

Yikes. They held onto their Travis Steele for a little too long.

I fully expect at least 3 to make the second weekend this year. Frankly, I think anything less than that will be a disappointment

[Masterofreality]

I do think that eventually there will be a separate organization that organizes and controls the top 64 FOOTBALL teams, including the playoffs. It will be backed by at least 1, if not 2-3 of the major TV networks. There’s just way too much money involved for this not to happen at some point. However, I do feel that BB, including March Madness, and the other sports will continue to be controlled by the NCAA.

I can’t see how the NCAA can prevent this from happening, even though they will try.

I believe this to be true.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Since Xavier joined the BE:

Teams to not make the tourney: DePaul

Teams to not win a tourney game: DePaul, St. Johns, Marquette

[bjf123]

Since Xavier joined the BE:

Teams to not make the tourney: DePaul

Teams to not win a tourney game: DePaul, St. Johns, Marquette

I’m surprised Marquette is on that list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[D-West & PO-Z]

I’m surprised Marquette is on that list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, and that is with a 5 seed one year and a toss up 8/9 game another year.

[X-band '01]

Too bad that 5 seed came against a Ja Morant-Murray State team.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Too bad that 5 seed came against a Ja Morant-Murray State team.

Yeah, forgot that. Tough draw.

[X-man]

A new article in The Athletic talks about Big12 expansion. Their next move is expected to add up to four more schools from the Pac12, including Arizona. The backup would include Gonzaga. Absolutely no mention of raiding the BEast.

Link: http://https://theathletic.com/4271149/2023/03/03/big-12-pac-12-realignment-news/

[JTG]

According to some of the other articles, it sounds as though the BE is the back up plan if they can't get the four corner schools from the PAC. I saw in another article that DePaul was even mentioned because of being in Chicago. I get it, but that has to really piss off the league members that have been serious about basketball that bottom feeder bumblers St Johns and Depaul are mentioned. If and when FSU and Clemson take the ACC to court over the GOR, a conference realignment free for all will be set off.

[Xavier]

I saw the 2nd phase is to get “non football” schools after the PAC12 raid. They want one West and 3 East. Likely zags and big East schools. Then they would make a separate TV deal for bball.

Don’t know if it happens but it will remain a constant battle until the shake ups are wrapped up. They wouldn’t come after X in that scenario, it’s more to open other TV markets. Otherwise I’d be all for a move to big 12. Don’t want to be left behind in a glorified A-10.

[JTG]

I saw the 2nd phase is to get “non football” schools after the PAC12 raid. They want one West and 3 East. Likely zags and big East schools. Then they would make a separate TV deal for bball.

Don’t know if it happens but it will remain a constant battle until the shake ups are wrapped up. They wouldn’t come after X in that scenario, it’s more to open other TV markets. Otherwise I’d be all for a move to big 12. Don’t want to be left behind in a glorified A-10.

Unless the ACC implodes, that's what we'd have a glorified A10.

[xavierj]

Unless the ACC implodes, that's what we'd have a glorified A10.

Xavier, Marquette, Creighton, Seton Hall and Providence to start is no where near a glorified A-10. But I don’t think it matters. Can’t imagine Nova wants to join a conference with over 20 other big state schools so they can go play at Central Florida and then head out to Utah to play BYU and then head over to Spokane from there. Good luck with all that travel for the non revenue sports.

[GoMuskies]

Can’t imagine Nova wants to join a conference with over 20 other big state schools so they can go play at Central Florida and then head out to Utah to play BYU and then head over to Spokane from there. Good luck with all that travel for the non revenue sports.

I can't imagine it either. Unless it will net them an extra nickel. Then they'd likely crawl over broken glass to grab it. That's the way of college athletics.

[waggy]

When the old be imploded. Didn’t UConn and UC and a 3rd school get to keep all the conferences tourney credits? The original 7 walked away from those credits and paid for the be name. Would seem odd that a few would breakaway to go to b12 with that in mind.

[Get Real]

it would be completely surprising for the Big 12 to add non-football schools to its roster, They simply don't need them. The conference has a lucrative TV contract that is reliant on football; hence the pursuit of the 4 PAC 12 teams. Gonzaga et. al. do not increase the value of the contract or the conference in general. The PAC 12 is hanging by a thread and given that most of the networks are aligned with the Power 2 or 3, the PAC may have to wander into the hinterlands of ESPN+ and other secondary sports networks. Football rules the airwaves and drives all decisions. Basketball, outside of the NCAA tournament, is incidental.

[xubrew]

So....

-I'm rather certain the Pac 12 is considering a deal with Apple that will make them a lot of money, but give them very little distribution.

-I'm also rather certain that the ACC and Pac 12 are discussing a (sort of) merger. The would remain two separate conferences for purposes of the NCAA, but would have a joint media partnership for purposes of TV/media deals.

-I'm not rather certain, but am PRETTY SURE the Big 12 is looking to expand, and expand BIG to either 18 or 20 members. I don' think this has really been in the press, but I believe they have reached out to six different Pac 12 schools, at least one ACC school (and perhaps more), and six "basketball" schools. Now, "reaching out" hardly constitutes being close to any sort of an agreement, but I think it is incorrect to just assume they wouldn't have any interest in basketball only schools for some of the reasons I mentioned in previous posts above.

-Now, what do I THINK is going to happen?? I have no idea. I can't even guess because there are too many moving parts. I agree that there is a lot of hand-wringing going on simply for the sake of hand wringing and a lot of people who are doing it just sort of feed off getting to whoop everyone into a frenzy like a lot of local weathermen like to do. But I also really do think that the Big 12 is actually legit looking to make some serious moves and like a kid who's selling magazines door to door is reaching out to anyone and everyone to try and get them to buy in.

[xudash]

I'll be a broken record - again - even though I should also resemble Captain Obvious doing so: it's all about our next media agreement.

Conversations have to be taking place about that right now, although they're a tad premature in terms of being able to arrive at final figures for it. We're probably a little over one year away from those conversations turning into negotiations for the final package. With that noted, all the people who know how the media calculus works are probably already modeling what it could/should end up looking like. I would have to think that the Big East's front office in NYC has a sense for where all this is headed for the next BE media agreement.

Then it will be about beauty being in the eye of the beholder of the moment - a Villanova, St. John's, etc. (i.e. whichever of our schools are being targeted by the Big12). Just remember one glaringly obvious and hyper-important thing: the question is what does any given school contribute to a new media agreement in terms of increasing the per school annual payout?

That's about it; that's almost the entire show right there. If the Big12 is already looking at $x million per year per member, can a new school be added with the result being an INCREASE IN THAT FIGURE FOR EVERY MEMBER? The bigger the existing annual payout per member, the taller the task in terms of adding any program that would be accretive from there.

I mentioned that that was about it. The rest of it would be about those targeted schools comparing the new BE deal to what is being made available by the Big 12, assuming timing and events allow for such a comparison. My sense is that there will not be a large enough difference for our targeted Big East members to break away, especially when considering the nature of the beast that is attempting to pull them away, as well as the geography involved.

The flipside to all this risk also is obvious: if the Big East in its current configuration of 11 members survives this threat, then we should be well positioned for at least another decade, but probably beyond even then, as we will certainly solidify our standing as the premier basketball-centric conference in the nation.

[XU_Lou]

Speaking of next media agreement - just saw this:

"NEWS: Big East Commissioner Val Ackerman announces that the conference will be initiating talks about a renewal deal with media rights holder FOX Sports in the coming months."

https://twitter.com/John_Fanta/status/1633523513842647040

[Xavier]

Been wondering how Sean would take the news if the big East implodes (as predicted, not saying it’s a done deal just…certainly something to be worried about). It’s an interesting development if the Big12 was able to pull off a bball only tv contract. I assume that would be a move every other conference would try to pull off so maybe Big 10 or SEC would reach out to X. But I don’t think Sean will want to stay in a depleted Big East.

But obviously perfect world big East stays mostly intact. Losing just UConn is ok, they can be replaced. Losing nova, Uconn, +st johns would hurt. Just rambling here, I know.

[xubrew]

Been wondering how Sean would take the news if the big East implodes (as predicted, not saying it’s a done deal just…certainly something to be worried about). It’s an interesting development if the Big12 was able to pull off a bball only tv contract. I assume that would be a move every other conference would try to pull off so maybe Big 10 or SEC would reach out to X. But I don’t think Sean will want to stay in a depleted Big East.

But obviously perfect world big East stays mostly intact. Losing just UConn is ok, they can be replaced. Losing nova, Uconn, +st johns would hurt. Just rambling here, I know.

The Big 12's media deal is already in place. It's $380 million a year for six years. ESPN has the first tier rights, and Fox has the second tier rights. The third tier rights can be expanded upon. That's what is important about their media deal. If they start a Big 12 Network in partnership with ESPN, then that would be the third tier of the media deal. The more markets the network can be distributed in on a non-premium tier (meaning if you have digital cable or satellite, people in certain cities don't have to pay more for it), they can collect a lot more money in distribution fees. They will (probably) get money from the cable and satellite providers for every single person that has the network available in their homes whether they would ever watch it or not. It makes sense that they'd want that network available in New York, and Philadelphia, and Phoenix, and Seattle, and Denver, and Salt Lake, and Chicago/Milwaukee. The reason I think they might be (and likely are) interested in Big East schools is for this reason. They want their network to be distributed in those markets, which would inflate the value of the TV deal. It doesn't matter if the schools play football or not so long as they can get the network distributed in those markets.

Now, that's the Big 12 side of things. That doesn't mean that any Big East schools would want to go to the Big 12. But what I do think (and am actually reasonably sure of) is that the Big 12 has reached out to A LOT of schools, including multiple "basketball schools" in regards to expansion. Whether or not any of them are interested...I really have no way of knowing, and I'm guessing that's true for most people.

[atljar]

I would have to think that the Big East's front office in NYC has a sense for where all this is headed for the next BE media agreement.


Sports illustrated (https://www.si.com/college/2023/03/08/big-east-10-year-anniversary-saved-extinction ), from yesterday:

Still, nothing is permanent in college sports, and that could affect the Big East’s successful rebuild. The Fox TV deal runs for two more years—and then what? The company has invested massively in college football now; does it still have money to spend on a basketball conference?

“No one needs to worry here,” Ackerman says. “Our value has been proven over and over.”

[Wheelhouse]

Been wondering how Sean would take the news if the big East implodes (as predicted, not saying it’s a done deal just…certainly something to be worried about). It’s an interesting development if the Big12 was able to pull off a bball only tv contract. I assume that would be a move every other conference would try to pull off so maybe Big 10 or SEC would reach out to X. But I don’t think Sean will want to stay in a depleted Big East.

But obviously perfect world big East stays mostly intact. Losing just UConn is ok, they can be replaced. Losing nova, Uconn, +st johns would hurt. Just rambling here, I know.

Is there a chance the Big East implodes? Did I miss something? I know there's always a chance but is this a reasonable possibility?

[XUGRAD80]

When I’m doubt, follow the money…..

The question I would have is, how much money would the BB only schools get from the B12 TV revenue? If it’s merely the money the B12 would get from the 3rd tier, is that enough to make them turn their back on the BE? IF I was one of the B12 schools that fielded a football team, I would be balking at letting a BB only school get any of that 380 plus million. It obviously IF the BB only schools can get a big payday out of moving to the B12 they will have to consider it very seriously. Follow the money.

I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I certainly won’t say there’s no chance. There’s always a chance.

[JTG]

From what some folks have said , Gonzaga has had an open invitation from the Big East on the table for awhile, and haven't acted on it. Waiting for a better, more logistically feasible offer. FOX being a West coast operation maybe should have pushed the issue. But the fact they have the BIG 12, they win either way.

[xubrew]

When I’m doubt, follow the money…..

The question I would have is, how much money would the BB only schools get from the B12 TV revenue? If it’s merely the money the B12 would get from the 3rd tier, is that enough to make them turn their back on the BE? IF I was one of the B12 schools that fielded a football team, I would be balking at letting a BB only school get any of that 380 plus million. It obviously IF the BB only schools can get a big payday out of moving to the B12 they will have to consider it very seriously. Follow the money.

I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I certainly won’t say there’s no chance. There’s always a chance.

That is a VERY good question. And I don't now how to find out the answer.

The BTN earns the conference $0.59 per month per subscriber. That means if you have the Big Ten Network, whether you're paying for it on a premium sports tier or if it is included with your basic channels, you are (indirectly) paying the Big Ten 59 cents a month. Even if you don't watch a single second of it throughout the year. If you have it, you're paying for it. So, say for the Big 12 Network it's 50 cents, and it's available to all subscribers in all those big markets....that's how much they'd be making per month That's $6 per year per person in all those cities.

And this is REALLY the only reason the Big Ten wanted UCLA and USC, and Maryland and Rutgers in the previous round. I don't think Rutgers's stellar history in football and basketball was really the selling point on them.

And I also get the impression that Brett Yormark doesn't really care about football or basketball. He'll add basketball schools if he thinks he can get the network distributed in those markets. He'd probably add a bowling school if he felt there was enough of a following within that market to get the network distributed. That's what I think his goal is. To HIM, I don't think he even cares about the whole "football/basketball" school thing. He's already got the first two tiers of his TV deal in place.

[Xavier]

Is there a chance the Big East implodes? Did I miss something? I know there's always a chance but is this a reasonable possibility?

Implodes is a bit strong. But losing the two biggest brands (currently) in the big East is a massive blow. Creighton/Marquette/Xavier is a strong base still but the image of the big East takes a major step down. That’s what I meant, not that it completely goes away.

[xudash]

That is a VERY good question. And I don't now how to find out the answer.

The BTN earns the conference $0.59 per month per subscriber. That means if you have the Big Ten Network, whether you're paying for it on a premium sports tier or if it is included with your basic channels, you are (indirectly) paying the Big Ten 59 cents a month. Even if you don't watch a single second of it throughout the year. If you have it, you're paying for it. So, say for the Big 12 Network it's 50 cents, and it's available to all subscribers in all those big markets....that's how much they'd be making per month That's $6 per year per person in all those cities.

And this is REALLY the only reason the Big Ten wanted UCLA and USC, and Maryland and Rutgers in the previous round. I don't think Rutgers's stellar history in football and basketball was really the selling point on them.

And I also get the impression that Brett Yormark doesn't really care about football or basketball. He'll add basketball schools if he thinks he can get the network distributed in those markets. He'd probably add a bowling school if he felt there was enough of a following within that market to get the network distributed. That's what I think his goal is. To HIM, I don't think he even cares about the whole "football/basketball" school thing. He's already got the first two tiers of his TV deal in place.

So, it seems like the key could be whether or not the Big12 package would be forced into a basic cable package in the Northeast for this, because I can’t imagine demand being high enough in the voluntary sign-up scenario to push the numbers to what is needed. I can’t see any provider cramming a non-Northeast-centric college conference into a pro-centric college basketball loving region.

A quick word on UCONN. Their fan base loves being back in the Big East for basketball. I doubt any desirable conference would offer them football (full) membership at this point.

Finally, I loved Val’s comments in the SI article. I’m hopeful that we’ll come out of this just fine.

[Xavgrad08]

Meeting in West Virginia this week where the Big 12 will continue to discuss adding Gonzaga. Article also mentions communication with UCONN.
https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/ncaa-football/college-football-expansion-realignment-big-12-gonzaga-rumor