Game Thread: Xavier v Montana (11/11/2022)

[paulxu]

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/2a1f45a0-e1cc-4202-89d7-1b7b5c27f309_1.3c18d8e111cdcd7e8a271effb6000907.jp eg?odnHeight=612&odnWidth=612&odnBg=FFFFFFVS.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Monte_Grizzly.png





THE MATCHUP

XAVIER UNIVERSITY MUSKETEERS (1-0, 0-0 BIG EAST)
UNIVERSITY OF MONTANA GRIZZLIES (0-1, O-0 BIG SKY)
FRIDAY, NOV. 11, 2022 AT 8 P.M. ET AT CINTAS CENTER (10,224)

TV, RADIO & LIVE STATS

Television: FS2 with play by-play from Matt Schumacker and analysis from Dickey Simpkins.
Radio: 55KRC with play-by-play from Xavier Hall of Famer Joe Sunderman ('79) and analysis from XU all-time leading scorer and Hall of Famer Byron Larkin ('88). The broadcast is also available on channel 985 on the SXM App.

Live Stats: Media stats at Statbroadcast.com (http://statbroadcast.com/) and fan stats at GoXavier.com (https://goxavier.com/).

[paulxu]

No free tickets. Sold out.

[MADXSTER]

No free tickets. Sold out.

Well it's Montana so of course it would be a sell out ;)

[noteggs]

Glad it’s on TV, but Simpkins again! Next we’ll find out O’Connell will be one of the refs.

[Xville]

X -17.5 and over 144… let’s go x!

[drudy23]

X -17.5 and over 144… let’s go x!

Seems like easy money. I'd venture to guess we're pretty close to that spread by halftime.

But if it was that easy, I'd be in a suite right now.

[Xville]

Seems like easy money. I'd venture to guess we're pretty close to that spread by halftime.

But if it was that easy, I'd be in a suite right now.

I’d hope.. I mean freaking Duquesne beat them by almost 30. If x doesn’t beat the spread it’s going to be a pretty disappointing performance

[GIMMFD]

Alleyne transferred from VT to UCONN??? Wild. UCONN's going to be tough with Sanogo and that other monster number 32 I bet.

[Xville]

That tandy guy is pretty good :)

I’d like to point out once more that Steele is an effing idiot

[xavierj]

That tandy guy is pretty good :)

I’d like to point out once more that Steele is an effing idiot

Agree.

[GIMMFD]

Go ahead Kyky Tandy!! So freaking happy for this guy after all he's been through!!

[GoMuskies]

Offense is fairly strong so far.

[kxblue]

That tandy guy is pretty good :)

Really hope he crushes it this year, can’t believe he never transferred. Not many would have stuck it out (I def wouldn’t have). Everything about this season will be refreshing regardless of results. The results will hopefully be the cherry on top.

[GoMuskies]

Defense is fairly weak so far.

[stammina0721]

Really hope he crushes it this year, can’t believe he never transferred. Not many would have stuck it out (I def wouldn’t have). Everything about this season will be refreshing regardless of results. The results will hopefully be the cherry on top.

Tandy is the ultimate judge of Travis Steele. How a guy wastes that talent should be a lesson for all Xavier coaches after Miller retires in 15 years with 3 NC's

[GoMuskies]

Really stepped it up on the defensive end.

[Xuperman]

Xup happy!!!

[GIMMFD]

Defensive intensity stepped up, and we're actually 5/5 from the 3??? Man, someone pinch me.

[paulxu]

Don't know if I've ever seen a box score after 8 minutes where we didn't miss a shot, and have 27 points on the board.

[noteggs]

Didn’t know Grant Hill played for X?

[GoMuskies]

Claude ruined the perfect start with a terrible shot.

[GoMuskies]

The announcer thinks Claude and Jones are the same person.

[paulxu]

I hope we build a big enough lead that Edwards gets some time.

[GIMMFD]

I love that Miller still thinks our defense isn't at the level that it should be when it's probably been the best defense we've seen in the last 4 years.

[paulxu]

If KyKy and Boum, along with Kunkel, can consistently hit 3's (would be refreshing) that will make life a lot easier for the front line guys.

[GoMuskies]

Has Kyky been back in since the hot start?

[bjf123]

He’s in now.


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[paulxu]

You're playing inside/out when your guards have 1 assist, and your big men have 5.

[noteggs]

Like seeing freshman, but not at same time

[GIMMFD]

Nunge getting married is going to be the next Stainbrook uber driver thing isn't it???

[IM4X]

I love that Miller still thinks our defense isn't at the level that it should be when it's probably been the best defense we've seen in the last 4 years.

Honestly, the defense isn’t it’s really where it need to be- it’s not been that great. Yes, they are playing more aggressive and they’ve had a few nice blocks, but they also allowed a number of easy buckets too.

[IM4X]

Like seeing freshman, but not at same time

I’ll second that.

Sean made a comment about how he wants to be careful not subbing in multiple freshman - that it usually ends up being a problem. I loved to hear that thought, as I was very frustrated how often Steele did just that without connecting the dots between that decision and the runs opposing teams went on following that decision.

At least Sean only seems to do it when X has a large lead and he quickly pulls them back out if/when they struggle.

[Xville]

Well, that was an offensive clinic. I bet miller is going to be peeling the paint off the wall at half due to the defense.. not that it was horrible, but I just have the feeling that he is going to want to focus these guys

[GoMuskies]

Defense was pretty terrible the first five minutes, but I thought it was good the last 15.

[GIMMFD]

Honestly, the defense isn’t it’s really where it need to be- it’s not been that great. Yes, they are playing more aggressive and they’ve had a few nice blocks, but they also allowed a number of easy buckets too.

I agree with this, but it's still miles better than what I feel like I saw over the past four years (granted recency bias may be in play here), I haven't seen as many instances of drives being stopped as we did in the Morgan State game, but it definitely feels like this team now values playing defense which will be important moving forward and improving.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Defense was pretty terrible the first five minutes, but I thought it was good the last 15.

Agree. Defense forced some shots out where Kunkel was shooting last year. That's where you want the opponent to shoot from, but Montana has solid three-point shooters. Nothing wrong with our defense.

With less than one minute left in first half, Free fouled so Miller went to his bench to get Free out. Nunge was already out of the game so that was the perfect time to bring in Miles or Edwards. Instead, Miller put Nunge back in. That was very telling. Clearly, Miller has little confidence in either of these guys.

I hope we get this figured out before the B.E. conference schedule starts. We addressed this issue in the game thread on Monday but I do not believe we can succeed in conference play with just Free, Nunge and Hunter. Somewhere, we need to find another big.

[IM4X]

I agree with this, but it's still miles better than what I feel like I saw over the past four years (granted recency bias may be in play here), I haven't seen as many instances of drives being stopped as we did in the Morgan State game, but it definitely feels like this team now values playing defense which will be important moving forward and improving.

I agree that they do “look” a little better than last year, but then they haven’t yet played a dangerous offensive team. Let’s see how they look on defense against IU. I want to see these guys shutting down every Montana player coming in the paint this half.

[noteggs]

Now we have Zach Nunge

[Xville]

Rise and fire kyky, rise and fire!

[IM4X]

So happy for Kyky.

This is the guy we knew he could be… with the proper coaching

[xudash]

Rise and fire kyky, rise and fire!

And look at that: Kunkel comes out to give him a big hug after his fourth ”3”.

This is a team!

[Xuperman]

Tandy so pure that the net DIDN'T MOVE!

[IM4X]

Haven’t lived in the Cincinnati area for a long time now, but thankfully my Whole Foods now carries Grater’s Black Raspberry Chocolate Chip. I think I’m going to have to stock up for the season.

[IM4X]

If I am Miller, I’m telling Nunge to show me some toughness inside on (with dunks and strong layups) offense instead of launching 3s at this point.

[Xville]

Can’t wait to be in the house a week from now. That game is going to be incredible

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Nova lost to Temple!?

[X Factor]

Hunter in tears on the bench. He threw a post pass out of bounds abs Miller yanked him. Miller is going to hold guys accountable, and I love it.

[IM4X]

Craft… knocking some of that rust off… good to see.

Unfortunately for Miles… not so much.

[drudy23]

Decent game - didn't really think they played that great, but still a blowout.

Still kind of sloppy and inconsistent. We're about to find out what we got in the next 2 weeks.

Oh - KyKy can shoot? Huh? Steele is an idiot.

[IM4X]

Hunter in tears on the bench. He threw a post pass out of bounds abs Miller yanked him. Miller is going to hold guys accountable, and I love it.

Agree. Nice to see that he put him back in again though. As if to say… “If you are not going to be smart - you’ll sit until I see you cry a bit for your mistake.”

[paulxu]

I saw Nunge consoling somebody on the bench. Guess that was Hunter.

[GoMuskies]

Yeah, Duquesne murdered this team, so it means pretty much nothing, but we definitely saw some good things. Looking forward to the tests starting soon.

[xavierj]

23 assists and only 9 turnovers, 57% from 3 and 11 steals. Didn’t rebound great. Tandy was great, Hunter not so much. Miller is developing guys and building confidence. Claude and Craft will be much better in two months than they are now and Kyky oozing with confidence. Should be the kind of fun year we expect but have not seen in an about 5 years.

[bjf123]

They took 13 FTs. We made 14. Just like Miller drew it up


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[IM4X]

Decent game - didn't really think they played that great, but still a blowout.

Still kind of sloppy and inconsistent. We're about to find out what we got in the next 2 weeks.

Oh - KyKy can shoot? Huh? Steele is an idiot.

Yes. Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

I’d just add that there is continued concern about the defense. Looking a little better than last year, but they really haven’t played tough teams and they still gave up too many easy buckets.

[xukeith]

A much better game played tonight vs last game .

If Boum, Tandy, Kunkle, and Craft can play tough D and make defenses pay with smooth shots,
This year will be different than last 4.

Tandy was awesome all over the court tonight.
Kunkel showed me some wacky 3 point shots but he also drove and made a couple shots look good.
I think we know our 8 man rotation. Get that defense improved each game, we shall see some solid bball.

[drudy23]

I’d just add that there is continued concern about the defense. Looking a little better than last year, but they really haven’t played rough teams and they still gave up too many easy buckets.

Very much agree - much to be improved on D.

[X Factor]

Very much agree - much to be improved on D.

Defense is the second half was very good. Even in the first half, Montana shot the ball well, but Xavier was making it tough and getting a lot of deflections.

Trust me, Miller is going to have them playing good defense by the end of the year.

[xavierj]

Yeah, Duquesne murdered this team, so it means pretty much nothing, but we definitely saw some good things. Looking forward to the tests starting soon.

I wouldn’t look too much into that one. Seemed Duquesne just couldn’t miss. Montana isn’t great but they returned 3 of their top 4 scorers from a team that won 18 games last year and Bannan averaged 19 last year. They also added Thomas from Colorado State who had 15 against Michigan in the NCAA tourney last year. They will win more than they lose this year and if they played Duquesne again they could beat them.

[X Factor]

I wouldn’t look too much into that one. Seemed Duquesne just couldn’t miss. Montana isn’t great but they returned 3 of their top 4 scorers from a team that won 18 games last year and Bannan averaged 19 last year. They also added Thomas from Colorado State who had 15 against Michigan in the NCAA tourney last year. They will win more than they lose this year and if they played Duquesne again they could beat them.

Yep, that game for them and the Dukes was a complete aberration. Duquesne won't play that well again all year, and Montana won't play that poorly.

Not saying Montana is great, but they're not nearly as bad as they were against Duquesne.

[X-band '01]

Hunter in tears on the bench. He threw a post pass out of bounds abs Miller yanked him. Miller is going to hold guys accountable, and I love it.

Tandy also missed a defensive assignment and Miller immediately pointed to Kunkel on the bench early in the game. So naturally, Tandy hit a pair of 3s and had 9 points before the first media timeout.

[X-band '01]

As for Hunter, it would explain why he didn't get back in the game until past the halfway point in the 2nd half.

[X-man]

Nunge getting married is going to be the next Stainbrook uber driver thing isn't it???

For those of you that miss the big Stain, get to Listermann's where he's a guest bartender. He's fun to talk to, and told me tonight that he'll be in attendance at the IU game.

[MauriceX]

I haven't been able to watch either game so far this season, but my confidence for this season is building based only on Miller's press conference appearances. You can tell that he has a plan. You can tell that he makes in-game adjustments. You can tell he has a great game-sense. It's quite a breath of fresh air!

[IM4X]

It seems like the Miller way is to immediately pull a player who either makes a bad decision or plays poorly.

Miles got pulled in the second half, right after he threw an errant pass that went out of bounds. Miles didn’t look happy about being yanked, but I was. I absolutely love the idea of making a player sit after just one egregious mistake. I think this approach by Sean will help push each player to become a bit more of a perfectionist and ultimately create a much sharper, more cohesive team down the road.

It’s a simple, decisive no-nonsense approach that should work well for a coach like Miller who prides himself on making his team better by the end of the season:

- Reward players by keeping them in the game when they make good decisions and play well.
- Punish players by pulling them quickly when they make a bad decision or play poorly.

Imagine if Travis tried this approach.

[Xavier]

Have seen a lot of positives so far. Looking forward to next week to get a better gauge of where we are at.

[American X]

Good thing Tandy did not play last year. Making all of those 3s would have messed up the theme.

The hallmarks of MillerBall are already emerging in this second game. Eager to watch how quickly this team can mature and coalesce. Trials by fire coming soon.

Quiet nod to Boum for not forcing it after 23 point performance last game, nice line with 5 assists.

[noteggs]

When is the last time a team shot 47% from 3 and still lost by 22?

[paulxu]

Last night?

[Masterofreality]

Good thing Tandy did not play last year. Making all of those 3s would have messed up the theme.

The hallmarks of MillerBall are already emerging in this second game. Eager to watch how quickly this team can mature and coalesce. Trials by fire coming soon.

Quiet nod to Boum for not forcing it after 23 point performance last game, nice line with 5 assists.

Public reps because jackbooted thugs like you are crushing me under your thumb.

[Masterofreality]

It seems like the Miller way is to immediately pull a player who either makes a bad decision or plays poorly.

Miles got pulled in the second half, right after he threw an errant pass that went out of bounds. Miles didn’t look happy about being yanked, but I was. I absolutely love the idea of making a player sit after just one egregious mistake. I think this approach by Sean will help push each player to become a bit more of a perfectionist and ultimately create a much sharper, more cohesive team down the road.

It’s a simple, decisive no-nonsense approach that should work well for a coach like Miller who prides himself on making his team better by the end of the season:

- Reward players by keeping them in the game when they make good decisions and play well.
- Punish players by pulling them quickly when they make a bad decision or play poorly.

Imagine if Travis tried this approach.

Remember when *some of us* on here claimed that TFG never held guys accountable and we were called out as being too “old school”? That the modern player would never stand for treatment like this? That visits with Mr. Pine would ruin the relationship?
Uh, the “participation trophy” culture doesn’t fly.

[X-band '01]

Travis Freaking ... Gnu? Goldfish? Giraffe?

[noteggs]

Last night?

Ha! You are correct sir

[Xavier]

I know everyone really likes how Sean is pulling guys quick after bad mistakes, I do too- especially early in the season. The leash will be longer in tighter games I think. But I particularly like how he is working young guys in (and Miles). I feel like in blow outs last few years I remember thinking why most our starters are in with 5 min left still.

I just remember thinking Steele didn’t work in young guys or deeper bench guys in well. Not to keep dumping on Steele, we had plenty of good starts with Travis, too.

[IM4X]

When is the last time a team shot 47% from 3 and still lost by 22?

Partly luck but also proof that there is still much improvement to be made on defense. I did not watch Miller’s post presser, but I hope that stat from behind the arc was not lost on Sean. Our guys continue to struggle to guard against the 3.

[MauriceX]

Partly luck but also proof that there is still much improvement to be made on defense. I did not watch Miller’s post presser, but I hope that stat from behind the arc was not lost on Sean. Our guys continue to struggle to guard against the 3.

He did talk about it a little. He said Xavier was over-helping on defense in the first half and that led to Montana's big man having 5 first-half assists and 3 of them were kick outs for open threes. They made a half-time adjustment, and Montana didn't get any of those kick-out assist plays in the 2nd half. Overall, I'd say it helped. They made 6 threes in the first half, and only 3 in the 2nd.

[IM4X]

Remember when *some of us* on here claimed that TFG never held guys accountable and we were called out as being too “old school”? That the modern player would never stand for treatment like this? That visits with Mr. Pine would ruin the relationship?
Uh, the “participation trophy” culture doesn’t fly.

I think the difference is that Miller told his players from the start that he will immediately sit anyone if he sees them make a inexcusable mistake or if he sees them as a liability on the court. Travis allowed many of his players to make multiple, dumb mistakes (many of which killed momentum and are into leads) before pulling them. When the entire fan base recognizing issues plaguing the team much better than the head coach, there is a huge problem.

How many times did we shake our head when listening to Steele’s lame responses in his post game press conferences and think…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ifaoKZfQpdA&feature=emb_logo

[XUGRAD80]

The key at this point is to use the pulling of players off the floor as TEACHING opportunities, and NOT as PUNISHMENT. You pull the player out, have someone explain to them what they did wrong, or failed to do, and then put them back into the game and give them the chance to do it right. You DON’T pull them out and bury them on the bench. Travis would bury players and that would often carry over into the next game OR he would let them make the same mistake over and over, game after game, hoping to make the film work the teaching opportunities. But with no real consequences to his “favorites” if they repeatedly made the same mistakes. I imagine that Miller will have consequences in mind if a player continues to make the same mistakes over and over and won’t let it carry on. Part of that is the respect that Miller has from the players. He has DONE it already. He has developed pros and won championships at the major conference level. He has EARNED the respect of the players already and they TRUST him to be right. Travis never earned that respect, and never seemed to demand it from the players.

[bjf123]

The key at this point is to use the pulling of players off the floor as TEACHING opportunities, and NOT as PUNISHMENT. You pull the player out, have someone explain to them what they did wrong, or failed to do, and then put them back into the game and give them the chance to do it right. You DON’T pull them out and bury them on the bench.

Agreed. If you bury them down the bench and they never see the light of day, you’ll end up with players who are tentative and afraid to do anything for fear of being yanked.


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[noteggs]

Agreed. If you bury them down the bench and they never see the light of day, you’ll end up with players who are tentative and afraid to do anything for fear of being yanked.


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You can still see this happening with Kyky. Unfortunately he still looks straight to the bench on a lot of different plays. Please just play and no need to keep looking over your shoulder. Sean will eventually let you know regardless of your status on the team.

[XUGRAD80]

Agreed. If you bury them down the bench and they never see the light of day, you’ll end up with players who are tentative and afraid to do anything for fear of being yanked.


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Absolutely correct. if anyone has been around long enough, they’ve seen that movie before and don’t need to see it again.

[IM4X]

He did talk about it a little. He said Xavier was over-helping on defense in the first half and that led to Montana's big man having 5 first-half assists and 3 of them were kick outs for open threes. They made a half-time adjustment, and Montana didn't get any of those kick-out assist plays in the 2nd half. Overall, I'd say it helped. They made 6 threes in the first half, and only 3 in the 2nd.

Yes, You are right. I finally listened to his Montana post game interview last night and it was really good to hear him explain the struggles with the defense and how he made adjustments. It is encouraging seeing our coach being so thorough. I love how methodical he is when assessing the team and individual player performances in a game and love seeing how tuned in to issues that need to be addressed. I also love how he makes it a priority to praise individuals who not only played well but who seem to be setting a tone with their positive energy that gets other players playing well too. I love how he carefully chooses his words so he comes across fair and thoughtful about every comment he delivers.

With Sean, it never feels like we are listening to a canned speech from a coach of questionable talent who has no real answers. We now have a coach who doesn’t simply dismiss obvious issues as being a non-issue. Sean doesn’t have to “take a look at the game tape.” He knows exactly what is working and what isn’t working as it unfolds before his eyes. He actually can recognize what is hurting the team and what adjustments need to be made at halftime and he makes them. He won’t hesitate to immediately sits players when he sees them being a liability on the floor. He can easily discuss struggles a player had in a game without sounding like he is throwing the player under the bus.

Finally, there seems to be a question as to whether Sean sitting a player is a form of punishment or more of a teaching moment. I see as both. He is punishing the player (by taking away the reward of staying in the game) and then he is turning it into a teachable moment. The important thing is for Sean to make sure his players understand what is acceptable and what is not. It is also important for those players to understand how quickly momentum can be changed and games can be lost simply because of one weak link. Again, good coaches know that anyone on the court who is a liability because of their poor play/ poor decisions they’re making must sit because it is putting the team at a disadvantage which could lead to a disastrous stretch with players being out of rhythm and out of position and making more bad decisions.

[Masterofreality]

Here’s what I’ve seen:

Sean is holding guys accountable. But he’s not “punishing them”.
He’ll pull a kid who missed an assignment or did something stupid. BUT. As soon as he can, HE, not an assistant, goes to the kid to explain why he pulled him and doesn’t leave it hanging. He’s not delegating the tough talk.
Players respect that

[IM4X]

Here’s what I’ve seen:

Sean is holding guys accountable. But he’s not “punishing them”.
He’ll pull a kid who missed an assignment or did something stupid. BUT. As soon as he can, HE, not an assistant, goes to the kid to explain why he pulled him and doesn’t leave it hanging. He’s not delegating the tough talk.
Players respect that

Isn’t keeping a player accountable by benching him basically just punishing that player for not doing what he is expected to do? The player pulled from the game is no longer on the floor. He is being “punished” for not playing up to expectations. It will then become a teaching moment once Sean explains to him why it was necessary foe him to be benched.

[UCGRAD4X]

C'mon folks. It's a matter of semantics. It's just a logical consequence. Playing players that perform and not playing players who don't is how any team sport is played and won.

I know this is not an absolute, like allowing a player to play through a slump. Making a stupid mistake is not a 'slump' and, particularly this early in the year with a new coach, these things need to be corrected directly and suddenly.

Coach's discretion. In Miller we trust.

[XUGRAD80]

Punishing would be taking a kid out, sitting him on the far end of the bench, and not giving them any more playing time in that game, and perhaps ones to come. Teaching, holding, accountable, is taking the kid out, letting him know why he was taken out, and then giving him another chance later in that game or in games to come.

[IM4X]

C'mon folks. It's a matter of semantics. It's just a logical consequence. Playing players that perform and not playing players who don't is how any team sport is played and won.

I know this is not an absolute, like allowing a player to play through a slump. Making a stupid mistake is not a 'slump' and, particularly this early in the year with a new coach, these things need to be corrected directly and suddenly.

Coach's discretion. In Miller we trust.

I agree that it is a matter of semantics. I guess I just don’t know what the hang up is about it being referred to as “punishing” a player. Is it not a form of punishment for a player to be benched for doing something he was not supposed to do? It is after all, a penalty (being removed from the game) for an offense (the player not doing what he is expected to do).

Isn’t it considered “punishment,” if a father tells his son that he has to hand over his cell phone immediately because he was using it when he was not supposed to be using it? It doesn’t necessarily mean the father is going to keep the phone all week or even all day, but I believe most fathers and sons would consider that action by the father a form of punishment. That “punishment” could then be considered the beginning of a teachable moment, if that father where to reminded his son what the expectations were and explain why he felt it was necessary for him to take his son’s phone for not meeting those expectations. The dad then can decided to give the son back his phone when he believes his son fully understands the expectations and the future consequences should he not meet those expectations next time.

The real point I was making is that I loved that Sean wasn’t hesitating to remove a player when he sees the player is not doing what is expected of him. One teammate on the court playing poorly can take down the entire team. A bad pass here. Being out of position on the next possession. These things not only lead to turnovers, they mess with the flow of the team and even can become a huge momentum swing for the other team.

[IM4X]

Punishing would be taking a kid out, sitting him on the far end of the bench, and not giving them any more playing time in that game, and perhaps ones to come. Teaching, holding, accountable, is taking the kid out, letting him know why he was taken out, and then giving him another chance later in that game or in games to come.

You look at the word punishment as “being mean to someone.” It can also simply mean to “temporarily take away what someone wants because that individual did not do what was expected of them.” A coach doesn’t have to punish a player for multiple games or even the rest of the current game. He can pull him from the game, quickly tell him why he is being pulled (as he walks by to sit on the bench) and then put him back in the game later that half. The player is punished for his mistake(s) he is punished by losing some additional playing time he otherwise would have had.

[XUGRAD80]

You look at the word punishment as “being mean to someone.” It can also simply mean to “temporarily take away what someone wants because that individual did not do what was expected of them.”

Punishment

The imposition of a penalty or deprivation for wrongdoing: the swift punishment of all offenders.
2. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: "The severity of the punishment must ... be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated" (Simone Weil).
3. Rough treatment or use: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.

What a good coach wants to avoid is a kid becoming timid because of fear of punishment. They want them to be somewhat freewheeling, but within a team-first environment. It’s a fine line that some coaches never learn how to tread. Many time the question becomes is it wrongdoing or just a mistake?

Wrongdoing would be after telling a kid over and over that he’s not supposed to take a shot from the corner (because you know he can’t make it), he still takes it every time.

A mistake would be a situation where he fails to see a cutter, or misses a defensive assignment.

In the 1st instance, a little time on the pine reinforces who is in charge and that certain things are not going to be tolerated by the coach. That’s punishment.

In the 2nd instance, you pull a kid out and let him know why and what it is that he did wrong. After he acknowledges what he did wrong, you put him back in. If he makes those mistakes AGAIN, then they might get some punishment to reinforce their learning curve. That’s teaching.

A 3rd scenario is where a kid just doesn’t have the athletic ability to do what they are being asked to do. Do you pull them and “punish” them? Or do you pull them and “instruct” them? Or do you pull them, and then reinsert them where/when they do have the athletic talent to perform in a way that is helpful to the teams goals? Keep in mind that no matter how hard you beat them, you can’t make a mule into a race horse. That’s where understanding your players and their capabilities falls on the coach. I’m not sure that the last coach Xavier had was capable of that understanding. But I think that the one they have now is.

Sometimes punishment also becomes teaching, but once again it can be a fine line between teaching someone and just exerting power to force a certain behavior, or to make the coach feel better. As a coach, I want the kids to not only understand what it is that they are supposed to do, but why I want them to do it, AND to have the DESIRE to do it. Not out of fear of the consequences of not doing it, but because of the positive results of actually doing it, and doing it correctly.

[IM4X]

Punishment

The imposition of a penalty or deprivation for wrongdoing

Thanks for making this one easy.

The imposition of a penalty or deprivation (sitting a player and keeping him out of a game for a period of time) for wrongdoing (throwing an errant pass, turning the ball over, etc).

You are free to express your belief that positive reinforcement is the way you like to get the most out of a player. I believe in a lot of positive reinforcement too. That’s not we are talking here. I simply referred to the action of Sean sitting a player for making bad decisions as a form of punishment - you responded, making an argument that it was not.

To that player -being pulled from the game- it is a form of punishment. He knows he screwed up at his D1 level school and hurt his team and now his coach (who wants to win games) is punishing him by sitting his butt down while another player is given some of the minutes he otherwise would have had to show him the proper way to do what he was supposed to do.


Punishment is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response (http://psychology.uiowa.edu/comparative-cognition-laboratory/glossary/operant-response)that decreases (or attempts to decrease) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.


https://psychology.uiowa.edu/comparative-cognition-laboratory/glossary/punishment


Believe it or not, coaches do talk about punishment as part of the teaching process in basketball.


https://www.basketballcoachweekly.net/basketball-drills-skills/install-punishment-for-inaccurate-pass/


Written by Jameela Brown (https://theburnian.com/author/jameela-brownblackburn-edu/)April 17, 2019

It is a common thing for coaches to use punishment and discipline as a way of teaching their athletes lessons. If the team or athlete fails to do well, makes a lot of mistakes or loses a game, a coach will punish them with more brutal practices, extra training, and long hard fitness routines. These extra workouts and practices are not foreign to any athlete.

[GoMuskies]

Thank God there's another game tomorrow.

[XUGRAD80]

Now look up the definition of wrongdoing…then get back to me.



You punish people for wrongdoing.

You correct/instruct people when they make mistakes. Often that means taking them out of the game right away in order to instruct them. I’m sure more teaching and instructing goes on in the film room and on the practice court. I doubt that the coach is making kids run because they had turnovers or missed a defensive assignment. Not yet anyway, even if that might come in the future.

It seems to me that the prior coach had a problem with players getting into his doghouse and disappearing for long stretches of time. We haven’t yet seen if that will continue with the new coach, but I don’t remember that being a normal thing when he was here before.

[paulxu]

http://imageshack.com/a/img834/3585/awt6.gif

[IM4X]

We could end up going back and forth all week.

Let’s just agree that we’re both liking how Sean is coaching and how he is handling his players. I don’t think we’ll be seeing many players get into the dog house. It appears he has already laid out expectations for hos players. I’m not so sure Steele was that straightforward.

[XUGRAD80]

We could end up going back and forth all week.

Let’s just agree that we’re both liking how Sean is coaching and how he is handling his players. I don’t think we’ll be seeing many players get into the dog house. It appears he has already laid out expectations for hos players. I’m not so sure Steele was that straightforward.

agreed

[nuts4xu]

It appears he has already laid out expectations for hos

Gotta keep the ho's in line. Bring out that pimp hand and make her understand your expectations!