The Big 12 is ABOUT to get better!!

[basket]

Gonzaga is talks with the BIG 12 to join their conference! This "get" is a huge one for the Big 12, IF it happens! UC would finally be playing in a relevant conference!

[XUGRAD80]

When you teams like Kansas, Houston, Oklahoma State, Baylor, and the like in your conference, you’re already playing in a “relevant” conference. Gonzaga would only add to it, not make it one.

Also….are you saying that the old Big East wasn’t “relevant”? C”mom man. I get the angst against UC by many here, and it’s fun. But seriously, THAT was one hell of a BB conference.

[xubrew]

When you teams like Kansas, Houston, Oklahoma State, Baylor, and the like in your conference, you’re already playing in a “relevant” conference. Gonzaga would only add to it, not make it one.

Also….are you saying that the old Big East wasn’t “relevant”? C”mom man. I get the angst against UC by many here, and it’s fun. But seriously, THAT was one hell of a BB conference.

Don't forget Houston. They've been to a Final Four and Elite Eight in the last two years, and are starting off ranked #3rd with a recruiting class that is almost indescribably good.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Don't forget Houston. They've been to a Final Four and Elite Eight in the last two years, and are starting off ranked #3rd with a recruiting class that is almost indescribably good.

Houston is the second school he listed.

Would much prefer the zags to the BE, but regardless would be nice to see them in a competitive conference.

[muskiefan82]

Houston is the second school he listed.

Would much prefer the zags to the BE, but regardless would be nice to see them in a competitive conference.

Better travel wise for the Zags. Makes total sense if I am a Zags fan. Except that you won't be seeing the Zags with only one or two losses in a season anymore....

[Masterofreality]

Do I care?

Zilch.

Welcome to a League where you "might" actually have to bring it every night. No more easy passes Zags.

[xubrew]

Houston is the second school he listed.

Would much prefer the zags to the BE, but regardless would be nice to see them in a competitive conference.

I need more coffee and less cough medicine

[bjf123]

Better travel wise for the Zags. Makes total sense if I am a Zags fan. Except that you won't be seeing the Zags with only one or two losses in a season anymore....

Works for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GoMuskies]

Do I care?

Zilch.

Welcome to a League where you "might" actually have to bring it every night. No more easy passes Zags.

Gonzaga plays in a bad league and STILL plays a tougher schedule than just about everyone. OK, they had the 94th ranked schedule last year, but they still play a lot of great teams.

[Masterofreality]

Gonzaga plays in a bad league and STILL plays a tougher schedule than just about everyone. OK, they had the 94th ranked schedule last year, but they still play a lot of great teams.

Gonzaga plays tough games early when teams are trying to figure it out (See Steele vs Ohio State 2021) then when teams hit their prime they play a cupcake League with little chance of upset. Going to Kansas State on a Monday in February is a bit tougher than going to Portland or UC Santa whatever.

[GoMuskies]

Going to Kansas State on a Monday in February is a bit tougher than going to Portland or UC Santa whatever.

I'm not sure that's right. They stink.

[GoMuskies]

Personally, I just find the narrative creep on Gonzaga by some on here (MOR) kind of goofy:

They don't beat anyone becomes they don't beat anyone at the RIGHT time of year becomes they don't win in the NCAA Tournament becomes they only win in the NCAA Tournament because those other teams beat up on each other all year and are worn out becomes well they haven't actually won an NCAA championship yet!

All the while, they've beaten us every time we've played and mostly beaten us to death (other than the one time they were really SUPPOSED to beat us to death).

At some point, you know, they're just a really good program that has pretty much earned its reputation.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Personally, I just find the narrative creep on Gonzaga by some on here (MOR) kind of goofy:

They don't beat anyone becomes they don't beat anyone at the RIGHT time of year becomes they don't win in the NCAA Tournament becomes they only win in the NCAA Tournament because those other teams beat up on each other all year and are worn out becomes well they haven't actually won an NCAA championship yet!

All the while, they've beaten us every time we've played and mostly beaten us to death (other than the one time they were really SUPPOSED to beat us to death).

At some point, you know, they're just a really good program that has pretty much earned its reputation.

There was a point that Gonzaga was an overrated media darling with little tournament success to back it up and they were getting attention that non majors like XU and Memphis (at the time) should have been getting. Until 2015 they had been to 1 Elite 8.

What they've since done in the last decade, and really the last 7-8 years especially has been amazing, and they have truly become one of the giants of the sport that we can't compare to.

Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program. There isn't any even semblance of an argument of that now.

Still, would love to see them in a power conference. I don't think it will hurt them overall, but surely they wont be going into every tournament with 1 loss.

[muskiefan82]

They might not be a #1 seed every year, but they will enter the tournament completely tested by late season tough teams. They may be even MORE dangerous after going through the Big 12 season.

[MHettel]

Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program. There isn't any even semblance of an argument of that now.


Honestly, i would love to see your argument about X being a better program than Gonzaga through the 2014 season. I think as soon as you started looking into it, you'll want to come back and edit this comment....

[D-West & PO-Z]

Honestly, i would love to see your argument about X being a better program than Gonzaga through the 2014 season. I think as soon as you started looking into it, you'll want to come back and edit this comment....

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

[D-West & PO-Z]

During the above timeframe Gonzaga had on average a 6.7 seed in the tournament and Xavier had a 7.7 seed average.

That would lead me to believe they had, on average, better regular season success, not by much however, than Xavier during that timeframe, but Xavier had better postseason success.

Again, an argument could be made either way over that timeframe.

No argument can even begin to remotely be made for Xavier now. Gonzaga deserves all the props.

[XUBison]

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

Right. And in 2014, they might have said Gonzaga has been good since all the way back in… 2000. And we would have pointed out we’d been good since the late 80s. And they would have said, but-but-but… Stockton? Now I am embarrassed to think about how cocky Mack was towards them, although it seemed perfect at the time. .

[D-West & PO-Z]

Right. And in 2014, they might have said Gonzaga has been good since all the way back in… 2000. And we would have pointed out we’d been good since the late 80s. And they would have said, but-but-but… Stockton? Now I am embarrassed to think about how cocky Mack was towards them, although it seemed perfect at the time. .

Yeah, Gonzaga deserves all the hype now but there was a time it was overblown. Maybe it was being the only team on ESPN late nights? Or dominating a bad conference? Or some other combination of factors? There was a good stretch in the late 2000's/early 10's where I would get so upset with their hype compared to ours.

[MHettel]

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

I'm surprised you even made an attempt at this.

What you SAID was "Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program." And then when I asked you to MAKE that argument, it's suddenly narrowed down to 2000-2014 and Sweet 16 or beyond as the criteria. Convenient, since starting in 2000 allows you to exclude the Elite 8 appearance in 1999.

In terms of NCAA appearances, Gonzaga went 15 for 15 during this period (and still hasn't missed a tournament), while XU went 12-15. When the "average seed" is calculated, we somehow ignore the fact that XU didnt make it 3 times. I like that approach. Here let me try it......XU has averaged a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament over the last 5 years. Impressive!

Gonzaga wont their conference regular season title 13 times and the Conference tournament 11 times. Xu won 7 regular season and 3 conference tournament titles. NOT....EVEN....CLOSE. And dont even try to make up the difference in these stats by comparing conferences. The A10 was slightly better.

I'm not even going to bother with a comparison (cant find the info for XU) on these other stats, but these accolades for Gonzaga dwarf XU.

2000-2014

Mark Few- 9x WCC Coach of the Year
10 Gonzaga players were WCC POY
5 WCC Defensive POY
39 First team all WCC Players (thats like 2.4 PER YEAR)
11 WCC Tournament MOP
1 National Player of the Year
3 First Team All Americans
3 Second Team All Americans
9 HM All Americans

4 First Round NBA Picks
4 NBA Second Round Picks
12 Guys played in the NBA

During this period Gonzaga had an overall record of 403-100 (80.1%). Xu had a record of 351-147 (70.5%).

XU went 0-3 head to head against Gonzaga during this period.

And you conclude your analysis with "an argument could be made either way over that timeframe"

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm surprised you even made an attempt at this.

What you SAID was "Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program." And then when I asked you to MAKE that argument, it's suddenly narrowed down to 2000-2014 and Sweet 16 or beyond as the criteria. Convenient, since starting in 2000 allows you to exclude the Elite 8 appearance in 1999.

In terms of NCAA appearances, Gonzaga went 15 for 15 during this period (and still hasn't missed a tournament), while XU went 12-15. When the "average seed" is calculated, we somehow ignore the fact that XU didnt make it 3 times. I like that approach. Here let me try it......XU has averaged a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament over the last 5 years. Impressive!

Gonzaga wont their conference regular season title 13 times and the Conference tournament 11 times. Xu won 7 regular season and 3 conference tournament titles. NOT....EVEN....CLOSE. And dont even try to make up the difference in these stats by comparing conferences. The A10 was slightly better.

I'm not even going to bother with a comparison (cant find the info for XU) on these other stats, but these accolades for Gonzaga dwarf XU.

2000-2014

Mark Few- 9x WCC Coach of the Year
10 Gonzaga players were WCC POY
5 WCC Defensive POY
39 First team all WCC Players (thats like 2.4 PER YEAR)
11 WCC Tournament MOP
1 National Player of the Year
3 First Team All Americans
3 Second Team All Americans
9 HM All Americans

4 First Round NBA Picks
4 NBA Second Round Picks
12 Guys played in the NBA

During this period Gonzaga had an overall record of 403-100 (80.1%). Xu had a record of 351-147 (70.5%).

XU went 0-3 head to head against Gonzaga during this period.

And you conclude your analysis with "an argument could be made either way over that timeframe"

I don't even need to read the rest of your post after I read that you think it was an advantage for Xavier to not compare pre 2000. I picked 2000 as a round number and a 15 year period. I honestly thought, you know it would be unfair to Gonzaga to go much further back than 2000 anyway.

[MHettel]

I don't even need to read the rest of your post after I read that you think it was an advantage for Xavier to not compare pre 2000. I picked 2000 as a round number and a 15 year period. I honestly thought, you know it would be unfair to Gonzaga to go much further back than 2000 anyway.

I'm not the one that said "up to 2015" and then decided the only criteria would be NCAA Tournament success and then conveniently excluded the GU Elite 8 appearance by starting the analysis the year after that. And by the way, you dont need to read the rest of what I posted. But everyone else will.

[D-West & PO-Z]

And dont even try to make up the difference in these stats by comparing conferences. The A10 was slightly better.



This is hilarious. The by far biggest weakness in your argument, as you are listing all these "amazing" stats about Gozaga's regular season accomplishments, is something I am not "allowed" to point out.

In the time frame being discussed, Gonzaga was in a conference that was, on average, ranked 13.9.

Xavier in this timeframe was in a conference that was, on average, ranked 7.7. (All years in A10, except the very last, which was BE)

That is a SIGNIFICANT difference. You don't just get to claim it isn't because it hampers your argument.

[GoMuskies]

Gonzaga was better in the earlier period, but it was way, way closer. Really close, honestly. They were just big time March chokers for a time. After they lost as overall #1 seed to Wichita State in 2013, Gonzaga 3.0 was born, and it has been a monster.

[Xville]

I'm surprised you even made an attempt at this.

What you SAID was "Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program." And then when I asked you to MAKE that argument, it's suddenly narrowed down to 2000-2014 and Sweet 16 or beyond as the criteria. Convenient, since starting in 2000 allows you to exclude the Elite 8 appearance in 1999.

In terms of NCAA appearances, Gonzaga went 15 for 15 during this period (and still hasn't missed a tournament), while XU went 12-15. When the "average seed" is calculated, we somehow ignore the fact that XU didnt make it 3 times. I like that approach. Here let me try it......XU has averaged a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament over the last 5 years. Impressive!

Gonzaga wont their conference regular season title 13 times and the Conference tournament 11 times. Xu won 7 regular season and 3 conference tournament titles. NOT....EVEN....CLOSE. And dont even try to make up the difference in these stats by comparing conferences. The A10 was slightly better.

I'm not even going to bother with a comparison (cant find the info for XU) on these other stats, but these accolades for Gonzaga dwarf XU.

2000-2014

Mark Few- 9x WCC Coach of the Year
10 Gonzaga players were WCC POY
5 WCC Defensive POY
39 First team all WCC Players (thats like 2.4 PER YEAR)
11 WCC Tournament MOP
1 National Player of the Year
3 First Team All Americans
3 Second Team All Americans
9 HM All Americans

4 First Round NBA Picks
4 NBA Second Round Picks
12 Guys played in the NBA

During this period Gonzaga had an overall record of 403-100 (80.1%). Xu had a record of 351-147 (70.5%).

XU went 0-3 head to head against Gonzaga during this period.

And you conclude your analysis with "an argument could be made either way over that timeframe"


The A10 was slightly better? On what planet are you on? Maybe you should go hop on the Gonzaga board and slurp it up with them:

The average A10 team RPI rank during that time period was 8, The WCC was 14.

The average number of teams sent to the tournament during that same time period:

A10: 3.1 WCC: 1.7

During that time Xavier also had a national player of the year...who had the better pro career?

Really could not care less how many WCC titles or WCC conference players they had during that time period. The conference was far below the A10 during that time, and its not even close.

Xavier had 2 players drafted in 1st round; 5 in the second. Gonaga isn't dwarfing anything compared to Xavier during this time frame.


With all that said, Gonzaga has absolutely dominated X since 2015 in every facet.

[D-West & PO-Z]

But everyone else will.

I don't think that is going to be as good for you as you think. :lol:

[MHettel]

Yeah, I remember those prime time A-10 showdowns against those elite teams like Duquesne, Fordham, LaSalle and St. Bonaventure. The GAUNTLET!

those are just the CRAP teams. Aside from Temple, which was usually NCAA caliber, we're talking about Dayton, Rhode Island, St Joes, Richmond, GW, Charlotte, and Umass. You could generally count one ONE of those teams getting their act together for 1-2 years at a time, hence the average of 3 teams in the NCAA each year.

Neither the A10 nor the WCC were particularly impressive conferences over this period. The Gap between the "Big 6" (at the time) and #7 each year was far bigger than the gap between 7-13.

And the real takeaway is that Gonzaga absolutely dominated the WCC for that entire period while we tried to stay in the Top 3 in the A10.

We missed the tournamant 3 times while in the A10 while playing against this lackluster competition. Dont overlook that

[Xville]

Yeah, I remember those prime time A-10 showdowns against those elite teams like Duquesne, Fordham, LaSalle and St. Bonaventure. The GAUNTLET!

those are just the CRAP teams. Aside from Temple, which was usually NCAA caliber, we're talking about Dayton, Rhode Island, St Joes, Richmond, GW, Charlotte, and Umass. You could generally count one ONE of those teams getting their act together for 1-2 years at a time, hence the average of 3 teams in the NCAA each year.

Neither the A10 nor the WCC were particularly impressive conferences over this period. The Gap between the "Big 6" (at the time) and #7 each year was far bigger than the gap between 7-13.

And the real takeaway is that Gonzaga absolutely dominated the WCC for that entire period while we tried to stay in the Top 3 in the A10.

We missed the tournamant 3 times while in the A10 while playing against this lackluster competition. Dont overlook that

oh so now we are going to compare Xavier's previous conference vs the top 6? alright way to move the goalposts. 8 vs 14 is extremely significant whether you choose to believe it or not. Hence the reason why the WCC was essentially Juan Bid during that time and the A-10 regularly sent 3-4 teams a year not the "just one" more you stated...it was actually at least two more other than Xavier. No one is arguing that the A10 was some kind of gauntlet, but arguing that the WCC was even close to the A-10 is laughable.

[MHettel]

oh so now we are going to compare Xavier's previous conference vs the top 6? alright way to move the goalposts. 8 vs 14 is extremely significant whether you choose to believe it or not. Hence the reason why the WCC was essentially Juan Bid during that time and the A-10 regularly sent 3-4 teams a year not the "just one" more you stated...it was actually at least two more other than Xavier. No one is arguing that the A10 was some kind of gauntlet, but arguing that the WCC was even close to the A-10 is laughable.

You said that the A10 sent on average 3.1 teams per year, and that the WCC sent 1.7. I didn't verify that is accurate, and will accept that as you claim.

So, using your own information, the WCC was clearly not "Juan Bid" nor was the A10 sending "3-4" teams.

I have also found that the WCC had only 8 teams through most of this period, which means they were sending 21.25% of the teams.

Meanwhile, the A10 had at least 12 teams every year, and 14 teams for more than half of those years. The final A10 season with XU had 16 teams. If we use 13 as the average, then the A-10 was sending 23.8% of the teams.

Not really seeing a significant difference in the representative participation in the NCAA tourney for these 2 conferences.

I guess the final thought is that there are around 32 conferences, and we discussing 2 conferences where one could make the claim to be the claim to be the 8th best, while the other has a claim on #15. Any normal distribution will reveal that the differences among data points near the center of the distribution are far less than those on the ends of the distributions. So, I'll reinforce my claim that the differences between the #1 ranked conference and the #8th ranked conference are FAR greater than the difference between #8 and #15.

[xukeith]

You said that the A10 sent on average 3.1 teams per year, and that the WCC sent 1.7. I didn't verify that is accurate, and will accept that as you claim.

So, using your own information, the WCC was clearly not "Juan Bid" nor was the A10 sending "3-4" teams.

I have also found that the WCC had only 8 teams through most of this period, which means they were sending 21.25% of the teams.

Meanwhile, the A10 had at least 12 teams every year, and 14 teams for more than half of those years. The final A10 season with XU had 16 teams. If we use 13 as the average, then the A-10 was sending 23.8% of the teams.

Not really seeing a significant difference in the representative participation in the NCAA tourney for these 2 conferences.

I guess the final thought is that there are around 32 conferences, and we discussing 2 conferences where one could make the claim to be the claim to be the 8th best, while the other has a claim on #15. Any normal distribution will reveal that the differences among data points near the center of the distribution are far less than those on the ends of the distributions. So, I'll reinforce my claim that the differences between the #1 ranked conference and the #8th ranked conference are FAR greater than the difference between #8 and #15.

I remember my thoughts as X left A10 for BE. X would struggle as it is not so easy to out recruit the BE teams.