Xavier FCS Football???

[Masterofreality]

Am I REALLY hearing this correctly?????
If so, Ima No.

[GoMuskies]

Definite no.

[JTG]

Lots of chatter on Musketeer Report about X starting non scholarship football to aid in Male enrollment and student retention. Evidently male enrollment is suffering and Freshman retention is becoming a problem. Appararently the talk is serious and has been discussed by the Board and Admn. The thought is increased enrollment will make up for the expense of a program. It would be Pioneer league playing Dayton, Butler, Valpo etc.

[GoMuskies]

Sounds dumb

[Muskie in dayton]

Hard pass.

[Muskie in dayton]

How about instead, end the woke shit.

[94GRAD]

How about instead, end the woke shit.

What does this even mean?

[bobbiemcgee]

Too many beauties on campus? I was born 50 yrs. too late.

[JTG]

Sounds dumb

It's not dumb if you dig into the logic and details.. And it would not effect basketball. Is it athletics, Yes, but it is more marketing and student retention.

[GoMuskies]

No, I'm pretty sure it's dumb. Hope it never happens!

[xu82]

What does this even mean?

…and I thought it was just me.

[JTG]

Go over there and read it. Other schools have used it to attract and retain male students. I've seen it work, here in Indy@ Marian Univ. So well that they are funding a Med School and their male enrollment is flourishing. And they've won a Natl Championship. This has become a problem at X in the last couple of years, why the admin is toying with the idea of earmarking $1mil in marketing startup money to fund the team.

[GoMuskies]

If Xavier can extort the parents of 75 average high school football players out of $50k per year, more power to them. I'd prefer they don't, though.

[X-band '01]

Where are you hearing this? Please tell me this isn't more evidence of MOR having lead in his house.

[xudash]

Where are you hearing this? Please tell me this isn't more evidence of MOR having lead in his house.

With all due respect, this thread probably should be put in the freezer for a little while.

[xubrew]

When you get right down to it, I think there are just four kinds of college presidents

-Those who are at football schools and love having football

-Those who are at football schools and hate football, but deal with it anyway

-Those who are at schools without football, and want football

-Those who are at schools without football, and are pretty sure that there are schools out there that have football, but don't really know what football actually is.

[UCGRAD4X]

When you get right down to it, I think there are just four kinds of college presidents

-Those who are at football schools and love having football

-Those who are at football schools and hate football, but deal with it anyway

-Those who are at schools without football, and want football

-Those who are at schools without football, and are pretty sure that there are schools out there that have football, but don't really know what football actually is.

And those that don't have football, used to so they know what football is, and still don't give a shit.

Why risk the "undefeated since 73" streak?

[UCGRAD4X]

Probably want to play in Staubach Stadium.

https://www.purcellmarian.org/home/staubachstadium/

Not sure they could fill it up.

[X-man]

Where are you hearing this? Please tell me this isn't more evidence of MOR having lead in his house.

Sadly, it's true. There are some on the Board who seriously want football, I'm told, and also believe (oddly) that this will be a recruiting tool for male students. Not a done deal though, and hopefully wiser heads will prevail.

[Xville]

Attract a better looking female student, and you won’t have to worry about male retention. It was a problem twenty years ago, and judging by what I see at games, it’s still a problem today.

[murray87]

No to bringing back football. Maybe they'd want to consider lowering (or at least freezing) tuition.

[JTG]

With all due respect, this thread probably should be put in the freezer for a little while.

Meaning it's a long way off, or just in the spitballing stage? Someone on that site said administrators at Parents Weekend were talking it up to folks. Do you have some inside info.? Usually you're in the know.

[XUGRAD80]

First off…..can the mods please merge the two threads on this subject?

Second….I’d be interested to hear from those against this idea as to WHY they are so adamant about NOT bringing football back?

I’m neither for or against and hadn’t heard anything about this until I saw these threads. I’ve not read why they they are thinking about it, or what it is they hope to achieve by being football back. But I see some here that are just immediately NO! And wonder why?

[drudy23]

As long as it doesn't take away from hoops, and let's be honest, at this level, it won't - I really don't care.

I think we all know this won't take off more than a glorified club sport at Xavier.

I REALLY hope this isn't someone on the Board saying "well, all the money is in football, we need football" - because that person is a moron if he/she thinks they can transform XU into a money generating football school.

[nuts4xu]

First off…..can the mods please merge the two threads on this subject?

Second….I’d be interested to hear from those against this idea as to WHY they are so adamant about NOT bringing football back?

I’m neither for or against and hadn’t heard anything about this until I saw these threads. I’ve not read why they they are thinking about it, or what it is they hope to achieve by being football back. But I see some here that are just immediately NO! And wonder why?

In 1973 Xavier dissolved their football program. Since that time, Xavier has thrived and built quite the baskeball program. Xavier's basketball program is profitable and helps fund other athletic programs. If you look at the changes on campus over the last 49 years, they have all been done without a football program.

I don't know the numbers or the cost, but I have always been told the cost to operate a successful football program were prohibitive. I just don't see how it would work or why anyone would want to bring football back from the dead. We have a pretty good thing going for us on Victory Parkway and I have a tough time believing football would bring in more male students and/or retain more students.

We get our basketball program back to what it was before Travis Steele ran us into the toilet, I think these enrollment issues will dry up WITHOUT a football program.

[JTG]

As long as it doesn't take away from hoops, and let's be honest, at this level, it won't - I really don't care.

I think we all know this won't take off more than a glorified club sport at Xavier.

I REALLY hope this isn't someone on the Board saying "well, all the money is in football, we need football" - because that person is a moron if he thinks he can transform XU into a money generating football school.

It has been tried elsewhere and has been successful. In Indy around 20-25 yrs ago Marian U, was little Marian College and most of the student body was girls. They decided to start NAIA football to get males to go to the school. It worked so well that male enrollment jumped, they had money to build a stadium, built a heck of a program that has won National Championships. The school started a Med School a few years ago. It has nothing to do with tv, or becoming Alabama or OSU. It's a student acquisition, retention, and student quality of life program. Evidently male enrollment, and student retention has taken a hit in the last few years, to the point that it is a concern to the Administration. As far as the instant push back from some, I graduated X the year before we dropped football. At that time, it was D1, was bad, and was draining money. It wasn't just football, but X was being grossly mismanaged by then Pres. Mulligan. Football became the scapegoat and was blamed for all the school's ills and was dropped. That's probably why some of the older Alums view starting football as a bad idea. Having spent my whole career in business, I understand this as a marketing move, more than a sports move. Especially since I saw it work firsthand here in Indy @ Marian U.

[paulxu]

I have no idea what will happen with this football interest.
But I enjoyed going to games in the Ed Biles era, watching Carroll Williams and Danny Abramowicz.
And Saturday afternoons watching the Muskies beat UC and Dayton on the field were good times.

[xubrew]

When you get right down to it, I think there are just four kinds of college presidents

-Those who are at football schools and love having football

-Those who are at football schools and hate football, but deal with it anyway

-Those who are at schools without football, and want football

-Those who are at schools without football, and are pretty sure that there are schools out there that have football, but don't really know what football actually is.


And those that don't have football, used to so they know what football is, and still don't give a shit.

Why risk the "undefeated since 73" streak?


Well, what category do you think Xavier's current president falls under?? I'm guessing it's not #4 or #5.

[xubrew]

If the stated goal is to increase male enrollment and retention, adding football would almost assuredly work.

I'm not saying Xavier should or shouldn't. I'm not saying there aren't other things that would also possibly work. I'm just saying for a private school with non-scholarship football at any level /division of the NCAA or NAIA, they will absolutely get 100+ male students paying to go to your school that would not be there if it weren't for football. Guaranteed. You may not get 100 fans to attend the games, but you would get 100 tuition paying male students.

[Masterofreality]

I guess if Butler & Fordham can do it, why can’t we?
I’ll see the BOT Chairman at our Reunion next weekend. I’ll do some inquiries

[drudy23]

It has been tried elsewhere and has been successful. In Indy around 20-25 yrs ago Marian U, was little Marian College and most of the student body was girls. They decided to start NAIA football to get males to go to the school. It worked so well that male enrollment jumped, they had money to build a stadium, built a heck of a program that has won National Championships. The school started a Med School a few years ago. It has nothing to do with tv, or becoming Alabama or OSU. It's a student acquisition, retention, and student quality of life program. Evidently male enrollment, and student retention has taken a hit in the last few years, to the point that it is a concern to the Administration. As far as the instant push back from some, I graduated X the year before we dropped football. At that time, it was D1, was bad, and was draining money. It wasn't just football, but X was being grossly mismanaged by then Pres. Mulligan. Football became the scapegoat and was blamed for all the school's ills and was dropped. That's probably why some of the older Alums view starting football as a bad idea. Having spent my whole career in business, I understand this as a marketing move, more than a sports move. Especially since I saw it work firsthand here in Indy @ Marian U.

Like I said, I'm on board if it doesn't take away from basketball. Better yet, give basketball some of the money.

[GoMuskies]

I guess if Butler & Fordham can do it, why can’t we?


Jesus. How about, if Villanova can do it, why can't we? (obviously Villanova is doing it at a much higher level than Butler or Fordham, but holy hell please don't compare Xavier to those two other things!).

[GoMuskies]

If the stated goal is to increase male enrollment and retention, adding football would almost assuredly work.


I mean, I get it. Sending your kid to private college makes almost no sense without a LOT of scholarship these days. Adding a sport to con 100 parents to shell out $50k a year so their mediocre high school athlete can keep playing sports sounds like a good business model. I just wish there was a better way to attract students.

[XUGRAD80]

It might be too long ago for it to matter today, but I do wonder if there are any of the old guard football alumni/supporters that might be interested in underwriting the expense of bringing football back?

Also regarding “non-scholarship”, I seem to remember that just a couple of years ago that X made it known that 100% of its current undergrads were receiving financial aid of some kind or the other. “Non-scholarship” only means that they aren’t receiving a “football” scholarship, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t getting another type of financial aid, or even an athletic scholarship for a different sport.

[xubrew]

I mean, I get it. Sending your kid to private college makes almost no sense without a LOT of scholarship these days. Adding a sport to con 100 parents to shell out $50k a year so their mediocre high school athlete can keep playing sports sounds like a good business model. I just wish there was a better way to attract students.

Yup! You get it!!

[Masterofreality]

Jesus. How about, if Villanova can do it, why can't we? (obviously Villanova is doing it at a much higher level than Butler or Fordham, but holy hell please don't compare Xavier to those two other things!).

You’ll notice I purposely left out another trash program 50 miles away.
My point was that those other “two things” suck but somehow they can make it work. We’re so much better with great high school football in the area and we’d do it so much better

[Xavier]

Hmm, 100 kids. After paying expenses would they break even? Or maybe make a couple 100 grand? As a poster mentioned earlier I guess it has worked before, just seems like a real long shot.

[xubrew]

Hmm, 100 kids. After paying expenses would they break even? Or maybe make a couple 100 grand? As a poster mentioned earlier I guess it has worked before, just seems like a real long shot.

You haven't seen many PFL games. Football only costs as much of you spend. A head coach will make tens of thousands, not tens of millions. The coordinators make even less, and many of the position coaches are GAs or volunteers who want to get into coaching. The equipment is recycled. Most PFL teams play 2 buy games and makes roughly $100k per game, and that's basically the bulk of their budget.

Without football, a lot of small private schools that play at the D3 level would probably have to close their doors. That's not an exaggeration. They need that tuition money to stay open. It doesn't cost a lot of money if you don't spend a lot of money, and private schools that play non-scholarship football do not spend much. It makes money for the institution because it draws in 100+ tuition paying students. The only schools that lose money on football are those that spend like they're trying to compete with the Big Ten and aren't bringing in anywhere near that amount of revenue to offset their expenses. If Xavier starts up football, the financial model for it will more closely resemble Whittenberg or Thomas More than it would Miami OH.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Lots of chatter on Musketeer Report about X starting non scholarship football to aid in Male enrollment and student retention. Evidently male enrollment is suffering and Freshman retention is becoming a problem. Appararently the talk is serious and has been discussed by the Board and Admn. The thought is increased enrollment will make up for the expense of a program. It would be Pioneer league playing Dayton, Butler, Valpo etc.


I honestly don't know the answer to this question: Do people go to UD, Butler, and Valpo football games? Is there big tailgate parties that happen? Do having those teams help enrollment and retention?

I get football being a draw, not sure I see this level of football being that draw though.

Edit: I guess it helps the enrollment and retention on the people on the football team, but past that?

[D-West & PO-Z]

I wonder if not sucking at basketball for 40% of a decade will help enrollment and retention?

[bjf123]

About 15 years ago, the brought football back to X as a club sport. I think it lasted 3 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JTG]

I honestly don't know the answer to this question: Do people go to UD, Butler, and Valpo football games? Is there big tailgate parties that happen? Do having those teams help enrollment and retention?

I get football being a draw, not sure I see this level of football being that draw though.

Edit: I guess it helps the enrollment and retention on the people on the football team, but past that?

Having done some recruiting for X in the late 90s early 2000s, I had some kids tell me that X not having football was a deal breaker.

[paulxu]

Could they use Corcoran field for football also?

Would like to see Jimmy Carter heads in the stands the first time the Fayers came down.

[xudash]

Meaning it's a long way off, or just in the spitballing stage? Someone on that site said administrators at Parents Weekend were talking it up to folks. Do you have some inside info.? Usually you're in the know.

I have to believe that is true. The cat is certainly appears to be very much out of the bag.

It's not just about male enrollment. You actually hit the nail on the head about this (see below).


Please allow me to go about it this way: how does a cynic see this opportunity?

1. We had club football already and that didn't work out (well, yeah, probably because it was "club" football).

2. This will take energy and focus away from our basketball program (I thought that way years ago; that's no longer a concern).

3. This is a money (tuition) grab (if the students/parents value this experience at a place like Xavier, then its "marked to market").


How does an optimist see this opportunity?

1. Football at this level, done well, provides multiple benefits to the institution.

2. This will be accomplished in a manner that ensures the basketball program will move forward successfully.

3. It will give the kids on campus the "fall experience" of having football.


This obviously isn't about navigating our way to FBS football or even FCS football. It's obviously non-scholly all the way, at least with respect to athletic scholarships. We aren't angling to do anything other than establish a successful NAIA program.

If you missed it before, then consider JTG's post again:

It has been tried elsewhere and has been successful. In Indy around 20-25 yrs ago Marian U, was little Marian College and most of the student body was girls. They decided to start NAIA football to get males to go to the school. It worked so well that male enrollment jumped, they had money to build a stadium, built a heck of a program that has won National Championships. The school started a Med School a few years ago. It has nothing to do with tv, or becoming Alabama or OSU. It's a student acquisition, retention, and student quality of life program.

I can't put it any better than that.

Xavier has been changing, mostly for the better and at an increasing pace since Father Hoff showed up. Just think about Xavier in 1990 versus 2000 versus now. We are 9 years out from our 200th Anniversary. We're going to look even better when we get there.

[GoMuskies]

Having done some recruiting for X in the late 90s early 2000s, I had some kids tell me that X not having football was a deal breaker.

Sure, but were those kids instead going to Ohio State, UC and Kentucky, or were they going to Mt. St. Joe's?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Having done some recruiting for X in the late 90s early 2000s, I had some kids tell me that X not having football was a deal breaker.

Yeah I get that, but what level of football? Any football? Or division 1, 80,000 fans in the stands football.

I think a lot of kids who say X not having football is a deal breaker, wouldn't consider Pioneer League level football, the football they are talking about.

[Xville]

I have to believe that is true. The cat is certainly appears to be very much out of the bag.

It's not just about male enrollment. You actually hit the nail on the head about this (see below).


Please allow me to go about it this way: how does a cynic see this opportunity?

1. We had club football already and that didn't work out (well, yeah, probably because it was "club" football).

2. This will take energy and focus away from our basketball program (I thought that way years ago; that's no longer a concern).

3. This is a money (tuition) grab (if the students/parents value this experience at a place like Xavier, then its "marked to market").


How does an optimist see this opportunity?

1. Football at this level, done well, provides multiple benefits to the institution.

2. This will be accomplished in a manner that ensures the basketball program will move forward successfully.

3. It will give the kids on campus the "fall experience" of having football.


This obviously isn't about navigating our way to FBS football or even FCS football. It's obviously non-scholly all the way, at least with respect to athletic scholarships. We aren't angling to do anything other than establish a successful NAIA program.

If you missed it before, then consider JTG's post again:

It has been tried elsewhere and has been successful. In Indy around 20-25 yrs ago Marian U, was little Marian College and most of the student body was girls. They decided to start NAIA football to get males to go to the school. It worked so well that male enrollment jumped, they had money to build a stadium, built a heck of a program that has won National Championships. The school started a Med School a few years ago. It has nothing to do with tv, or becoming Alabama or OSU. It's a student acquisition, retention, and student quality of life program.

I can't put it any better than that.

Xavier has been changing, mostly for the better and at an increasing pace since Father Hoff showed up. Just think about Xavier in 1990 versus 2000 versus now. We are 9 years out from our 200th Anniversary. We're going to look even better when we get there.

A few questions here:

1.) How in your view does FCS football provide multiple benefits to the school?

2.) What does this have anything to do with the success of our basketball program?

3.) What does Marian have anything to do with Xavier? Does Marian have a basketball team, one that has grown leaps and bounds and is in the Big East?

If this was the 70s when Xavier basketball was a blip on the radar, I could see the correlation. Otherwise, I don't think what happened at Marian has anything to do with Xavier.

I really think most of this stuff is nonsense. Guys don't go to Dayton or Villanova because they have a football team, I think that's complete nonsense. If they want to increase male enrollment and do it by adding 100 guys a year and it doesn't hurt the basketball program, go for it. I think there are much better ways to achieve the desired outcome but whatever floats their boat i guess.

[nickgyp]

About 15 years ago, the brought football back to X as a club sport. I think it lasted 3 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, club football got through a number of years with some entertaining games. Problem was the students had to pay to play; the number of players weren't sufficient to deal with injuries. I always enjoyed to attending games at Corcoran Field back in the days of Danny Abramowicz, Carroll Williams, Steve Bailey, Jim Louder, Denny Caponi and others. Autumns at Xavier have never been the same since football was dropped in 1973. I attended Xavier when football was dropped and even attempted to walk-on for what would have been my sophomore year. Always thought that dropping to Division 3 football as Dayton did back then would have been a better option.

I had hoped that club football might have morphed into non-scholarship football in the Pioneer Football League where schools like Butler and Dayton have played without harming their basketball programs. Villanova's football program certainly doesn't harm their basketball program (this even after Nova dropped their program only to re-start it very quickly). Schools adding football and /or restarting programs at various levels has been a growing trend:

National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame
Last week the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame (NFF) highlighted that football remains strong on campuses across the country as the number of four-year colleges and universities from all NCAA divisions, the NAIA and independents offering football currently stands at 774. The total number includes one college football team that will take the field for the first time this season and six additional programs that will take to the gridiron in the coming years. (Media release courtesy of the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame.)

Since 1978 when the NCAA changed its method for tracking attendance figures, the number of schools playing NCAA football (FBS, FCS, DII and DIII) has steadily increased by 181 schools from 484 in 1978 to 665 in 2021. Adding NAIA and independent schools playing football and schools launching programs in the coming years, there are now 774 four-year colleges and universities offering students an opportunity to play college football...

”No other sport contributes more to the vibrancy of a college campus than football, and we are very pleased to highlight those schools that have added our great game,” said NFF President & CEO Steve Hatchell. “University and college presidents clearly see the value of having programs on their campuses, and we applaud them for understanding the role football can play in the educational experience of all their students.”

The rationale for adding football varies at each institution, and all of the decision makers, who helped develop a plan for launching a program, explain that an in-depth study played a critical role in finding the right level of play and the proper financial balance. Small colleges may cite increasing enrollment and addressing gender imbalances while larger universities might highlight the role of football in raising the institutionÂ’s profile and its ability to attract research grants. All mention creating a more vibrant on-campus community and connecting with alumni.

“With more than one million high school students playing football, there is plenty of room for expansion of the game at the collegiate level,” said NFF Chairman Archie Manning. “Many of these colleges clearly recognize that football can play an important role in encouraging students to continue their educations by enticing them to enroll.”

According to a 2015 study of five small universities published in College Planning & Management by Virginia Wesleyan University President Dr. Scott Miller and former Carlow University (PA) President Dr. Marylouise Fennell, adding sports teams and facilities, especially football and marching bands, can fuel an enrollment boost. The study found that each of the five institutions experienced a six-year increase of 26 percent or more, with one school doubling its enrollment during that period...

You can read more of this story at: https://footballfoundation.org/news/2022/8/2/football-remains-strong-774-colleges-and-universities-offering-football.aspx

I have no idea how the numbers would work for Xavier especially with Title IX considerations but an argument can be made that non-scholarship football doesn't impact legislation and/or female club sports even out the athletic.opportunities.

I fully support the administration exploring the pros and cons of non-scholarship football. It would certainly fill an autumn void that exists on Victory Parkway and I believe basketball success wouldn't be undermined. I would love to see it happen.

FWIW: I am just a little more than a year out from chemo and beam radiation for thyroid cancer. Today I had CT scans of my chest, neck and abdomen. Reads just in: All show me clear of cancer consistent with July PETSCAN at MD Anderson which showed no evidence of cancer.
Scheduled to head to Houston again in January for another PETSCAN. I am blessed!

Finally: Musketeer Madness noted this past summer that Steve Thomas turned 80. Can somebody get his jersey hanging at Cintas?
His 30 ppg. average without a three-point shot in 1964 is one remarkable basketball feat. He was that good!

[drudy23]

I don't understand this. The gap between where Xavier is now vs. what it would need to be to provide substantial and difference making revenue is cavernous. What other school the size of Xavier uses football to supplement other things?

There would be zero interest in Xavier football, except by the weekend warriors hanging on to play "college" football. There is Father Hoff vision and then there is this. This is dumb.

This feels like someone trying to sell me on the streetcar.

[nickgyp]

sorry for repost

[XUGRAD80]

I think that many here would be surprised that some Xavier grads on this board are fans of other school’s football teams, including schools in the Cincinnati area. I’d certainly plan to attend if X started playing football again. If X had never dropped football I would probably be a season ticket holder for them. Instead I’m a season ticket holder for someone else. That doesn’t mean that we are any less of a Xavier fan. It only means that we had to go elsewhere to fill a void that Xavier dropping football created. But to each there own. I’m not telling anyone that they should be a college football fan. I’m just saying that some of us are and that I personally would like to be a XAVIER college FOOTBALL fan.

[paulxu]

Go Cocks ??

[Xville]

I think that many here would be surprised that some Xavier grads on this board are fans of other school’s football teams, including schools in the Cincinnati area. I’d certainly plan to attend if X started playing football again. If X had never dropped football I would probably be a season ticket holder for them. Instead I’m a season ticket holder for someone else. That doesn’t mean that we are any less of a Xavier fan. It only means that we had to go elsewhere to fill a void that Xavier dropping football created. But to each there own. I’m not telling anyone that they should be a college football fan. I’m just saying that some of us are and that I personally would like to be a XAVIER college FOOTBALL fan.

Most people on here are probably fans of other school's football teams. Don't think that would surprise anyone.

I really enjoy college football and go to probably 4-6 games a year encompassing a couple of different teams.. but that's big time power 5 football.. If X had a football team, I'd probably look things up to see how they are doing like I do the soccer teams, but you'd never find me at a game of theirs because its barely above high school football. Like you said though, to each their own. My assumption would be attendance around what Dayton's is which is about 3k...whoope do.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think that many here would be surprised that some Xavier grads on this board are fans of other school’s football teams

I actually think this may be one of the least surprising things.

[xubrew]

Sure, but were those kids instead going to Ohio State, UC and Kentucky, or were they going to Mt. St. Joe's?

It probably depends. Were they fans or players?

[xubrew]

Football at the FCS level typically doesn't drain a lot of resources. That's even more true for football at the PFL level. The people that are against football for whatever reason probably don't need to worry. It's not going to compromise basketball. I can't imagine that ANYTHING would ever be prioritized away from basketball and toward a PFL non-scholarship football program.

The last school to win a D1 national championship in basketball that did not play football at any level was Marquette. In 1977.

I believe there are only four schools in the entire history of D1 basketball that won a national championship without playing football at any level at the time they won it. That's San Francisco in 1955 and 1956, Loyola in 1963, and Marquette in 1977. That's it.

Villanova has football. Georgetown has football. Butler has football. These are top tier national brands and programs when it comes to basketball. I assure you NOTHING at ANY of those schools is being diverted from basketball to support football. Football has about the same priority as women's soccer.

As far as what does it do for Xavier?? I don't know. If you don't like football, I guess it doesn't do anything for you. But at worst it's a zero sum game. If they model it the way most non-scholarship programs are modeled, it won't siphon anything away from basketball, or the any other part of the athletic department, or for that matter any other part of the campus.

[JTG]

Sure, but were those kids instead going to Ohio State, UC and Kentucky, or were they going to Mt. St. Joe's?

UD and Butler. How's that for depressing.

[GoMuskies]

UD and Butler. How's that for depressing.

Jesus, I hope they were planning to PLAY football.

[xudash]

A few questions here:

1.) How in your view does FCS football provide multiple benefits to the school?

2.) What does this have anything to do with the success of our basketball program?

3.) What does Marian have anything to do with Xavier? Does Marian have a basketball team, one that has grown leaps and bounds and is in the Big East?

If this was the 70s when Xavier basketball was a blip on the radar, I could see the correlation. Otherwise, I don't think what happened at Marian has anything to do with Xavier.

I really think most of this stuff is nonsense. Guys don't go to Dayton or Villanova because they have a football team, I think that's complete nonsense. If they want to increase male enrollment and do it by adding 100 guys a year and it doesn't hurt the basketball program, go for it. I think there are much better ways to achieve the desired outcome but whatever floats their boat i guess.

Responses:

1. It increases male enrollment and it provides on-campus activity in the fall, primarily. IF it can be done well and successfully, then it simply adds to the Xavier experience. No one is expecting tailgates at the level of Ole Miss and meaningful athletic revenue of any kind. But what if they pull it off well? What if Xavier ends up putting a program in place that attracts a following and creates some fun on campus on Saturday afternoons in the fall? This is NOT a "panacea play"; it can be a nice rounding out of offerings. I think people who can visualize it working well see the potential behind it, without believing that it can or would be any form of homerun for the school.

2. It has nothing to do with a successful basketball program. Xavier has a nationally recognized basketball program. The only thing that this could possibly have to do with Xavier's basketball program has to do with the question of whether or not pursuing football at this level would in any way harm Xavier's ongoing efforts with its basketball program. I don't believe there was one person in a leadership position at Xavier, say 10 years ago, that would have thought that pursuing football at the FCS level was a good idea. Things have transpired that allow X to now think differently about this opportunity.

3. Marian is one example of a small school that put football in place at a certain level, nurtured it and built it up, and ended up being better off as a consequence of that decision. I'm not comparing Marian to Xavier. There is no comparison. The point JTG made - a point that remains spot on - is that the addition of a football program, if well managed, to a university can add overall value to that university. Marian's success at football is the point. One can argue the amount of value it could possibly add. I certainly get that. But our Big East conference mate Villanova certainly continues to stay the course with its FCS program. They aren't dropping their program.

Guys don't go to Dayton or Villanova because they have a football team, I think that's complete nonsense. - - Actually, guys that play football that go to VD or Nova do go to those schools because of the availability of football at those schools. That's the fundamental point with all this.

[Xville]

Responses:

1. It increases male enrollment and it provides on-campus activity in the fall, primarily. IF it can be done well and successfully, then it simply adds to the Xavier experience. No one is expecting tailgates at the level of Ole Miss and meaningful athletic revenue of any kind. But what if they pull it off well? What if Xavier ends up putting a program in place that attracts a following and creates some fun on campus on Saturday afternoons in the fall? This is NOT a "panacea play"; it can be a nice rounding out of offerings. I think people who can visualize it working well see the potential behind it, without believing that it can or would be any form of homerun for the school.

2. It has nothing to do with a successful basketball program. Xavier has a nationally recognized basketball program. The only thing that this could possibly have to do with Xavier's basketball program has to do with the question of whether or not pursuing football at this level would in any way harm Xavier's ongoing efforts with its basketball program. I don't believe there was one person in a leadership position at Xavier, say 10 years ago, that would have thought that pursuing football at the FCS level was a good idea. Things have transpired that allow X to now think differently about this opportunity.

3. Marian is one example of a small school that put football in place at a certain level, nurtured it and built it up, and ended up being better off as a consequence of that decision. I'm not comparing Marian to Xavier. There is no comparison. The point JTG made - a point that remains spot on - is that the addition of a football program, if well managed, to a university can add overall value to that university. Marian's success at football is the point. One can argue the amount of value it could possibly add. I certainly get that. But our Big East conference mate Villanova certainly continues to stay the course with its FCS program. They aren't dropping their program.

Guys don't go to Dayton or Villanova because they have a football team, I think that's complete nonsense. - - Actually, guys that play football that go to VD or Nova do go to those schools because of the availability of football at those schools. That's the fundamental point with all this.

Thanks for your responses, I certainly appreciate it. The reason I asked question 2 is because you said something to the effect that it would further the basketball team/program. I fail to see that, and in response to Dayton and Nova, you're correct...I failed to say that people outside of the ones actually playing football. However, it seems I might be wrong in that regard as well based off of JTG's response, which is astounding to me.

The rest, ok I can see your perspective. I'm not against Xavier having football. I just kind of shrug my shoulders at it, and don't think it really adds anything of value. However, colleges have being adding nothing of value for years and tuition keeps rising so I guess this is just par for the course.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If it is being done to attract 100 more male students who want to play football in college, that makes sense. Attracting 100 more students doesnt seem like a huge impact to me on its face, but maybe it is given Xavier's current enrollment numbers, and the fact that these kids still pay tuition.

Being a draw for non football playing students? Not sure I see that.

Don't have a dog in the fight either way, however.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Responses:

1. . . . . But what if they pull it off well? What if Xavier ends up putting a program in place that attracts a following and creates some fun on campus on Saturday afternoons in the fall?

Isn't that the rugby team's job?

[xudash]

Isn't that the rugby team's job?

Ha! Okay. White flag. No football tailgate is EVER going to compete with a post-game rugby party.

[paulxu]

We have another fall sport that in most other countries would fill the void till basketball.

Football by another name.

[Seven Eighths]

Xavier has expanded greatly since I graduated and now being in the Big East with an on campus arena, the school and basketball program are in good shape.

Xavier would be smart to at least look into starting lower level non scholarship football to add another facet to campus and campus life. I imagine that tearing down Schmitt, the Armory and the O’Connor sports center and “redoing” or rebuilding that side of campus is part of their larger plans. Having a football team to potentially attract 3000 attendees for 5 games per year would help.

I don’t see much of a downside to it.

[noteggs]

Honestly don’t know if football will help or hurt. With that said, we have come such a long way as a university since 1973 as others have pointed out.

We are loosely a national brand (in basketball) and actually have students from all 50 states. Think about it, we barely got mentions from the local media back in the day. Boy have times changed.

[MHettel]

in the fewest amount of words possible, I simply dont see how the benefits of adding a football program could outweigh the costs.

Not sure why administration would even spend any time on this.

[xu82]

Ha! Okay. White flag. No football tailgate is EVER going to compete with a post-game rugby party.

A few seasons in I had a neck injury. That is when I discovered the party had been starting without me with kegs in the stands! Post-game is great, and even better if you get an early start!


BTW - living in Cincinnati in the summer wearing a neck brace in a house with no AC and the windows painted shut is no treat!

[xu82]

in the fewest amount of words possible, I simply dont see how the benefits of adding a football program could outweigh the costs.

Not sure why administration would even spend any time on this.


I’m not sure who this would actually appeal to. My son could have played college football with a scholarship at some smaller schools. It was a Groucho Marx thing, he was not impressed by the schools that were impressed with him. College was paid for, so there was no compelling reason to play. He was ready to start his adult life.

Are there really kids who love it so much you can build a team of them? If that is a yes, good for them. I just don’t see the draw, but what do I know?

.

[xubrew]

in the fewest amount of words possible, I simply dont see how the benefits of adding a football program could outweigh the costs.

Not sure why administration would even spend any time on this.

Just curious, how much do you think it generally costs?? Remember, this is the Pioneer Football League.

[X-band '01]

Just for shits and giggles, here is the makeup of the Pioneer League along with stadium capacity:

San Diego (6,000)
St. Thomas-Minnesota (5,000)
Drake (14,550)
Valparaiso (5,000)
Butler (7,500)
Dayton (11,000)
Marist (5,000)
Morehead (10,000)
Davidson (4,700)
Presbyterian (6,500)
Stetson (6,000)

[X-band '01]

Another question that would arise is where would you build a new stadium that would also likely come with a track and field setup? The T&F program has always been at or near the bottom of the Big East and facilities has to be a major reason for that. Women's basketball is the only other program that has been consistently awful since joining the Big East.

Every other sport has had varying degrees of success - baseball has been one example and we're likely going to see both men's and women's soccer make the NCAA Tournament simultaneously for the first time.

[ballyhoohoo]

Just curious, how much do you think it generally costs?? Remember, this is the Pioneer Football League.

Some budgets from Pop wet League Schools.

Morehead State University Men's Football
On the money side of things, the Morehead State University football program brought home $1,082,756 in revenue and paid out $1,082,756 in total expenses.

The 116 players of the UDayton men's football team are led by a head coach and 9 assistant coaches. The team has an academic progress rate of 945, which is a measure of how well they do in the classroom. The football program at UDayton made $221,136 in revenue and spend $1,301,281 in expenses.

With an excellent academic progress rate of 989, the team has shown that they take there time in the classroom seriously. The Butler football program paid out $1,252,259 in expenses while making $1,244,835 in total revenue. That's not such good news since it means the program lost money to the tune of $-7,424.

On the money side of things, the Davidson football program brought home $1,772,393 in revenue and paid out $1,538,608 in total expenses. This means the program turned a profit, making $233,785 for the school.

There are 96 players on the Valpo men's football team, and they are led by one head coach and 10 assistant coaches. As an interesting note on their academic performance, the team's APR is 956. Valpo brought in $1,243,116 in revenue from its football program while paying out $1,158,267 in expenses.

There are 93 players on the USD men’s football team, and they are led by one head coach and 12 assistant coaches. The team has an excellent academic progress rate of 977 - proof that they don’t ignore the importance of getting a good education. The football program at USD made $1,554,246 in revenue and spend $1,554,246 in expenses. Even though this means that the program didn’t make any money, at least it wasn’t in the red.

A terrible MVC program with scholarships and no fan support for comparison:

The football program at Indiana State made $4,370,196 in revenue and spend $4,184,677 in expenses. This equates to a net profit of $185,519 for the program. That's definitely a big plus

[XUGRAD80]

I’d think that Mt ST. Joes and Thomas More, both in the Cincinnati area, would be fair comparisons. Both programs have done well in the D3 and NAIA and have raised the exposure of both schools. Rosters are heavily made up of Cincinnati and NKY area players. Since both are private universities like X, getting financial numbers from those institutions can be difficult. I would imagine that using a local high school stadium would be the plan, not building a new one on the Xavier campus.

[Xville]

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/sports/college/finds-not-giving-football-scholarships-blessing/39WFqTAIogXmxbfB4T6VeK/?outputType=amp

So this is extremely old but it’s the latest I could find without really digging in.
My guess is that nowadays dayton is losing a million a season on football. If Xavier wants the equivalent of high school football I guess knock yourself out, but I think getting the basketball program to respectable year in and year out can also get another 100 guys to enroll without the added expense.

I’m having a really hard time seeing how this would benefit the university. I’d like to see some feasibility studies on this and see what they come up with.

[xubrew]

Some budgets from Pop wet League Schools.

Morehead State University Men's Football
On the money side of things, the Morehead State University football program brought home $1,082,756 in revenue and paid out $1,082,756 in total expenses.

The 116 players of the UDayton men's football team are led by a head coach and 9 assistant coaches. The team has an academic progress rate of 945, which is a measure of how well they do in the classroom. The football program at UDayton made $221,136 in revenue and spend $1,301,281 in expenses.

With an excellent academic progress rate of 989, the team has shown that they take there time in the classroom seriously. The Butler football program paid out $1,252,259 in expenses while making $1,244,835 in total revenue. That's not such good news since it means the program lost money to the tune of $-7,424.

On the money side of things, the Davidson football program brought home $1,772,393 in revenue and paid out $1,538,608 in total expenses. This means the program turned a profit, making $233,785 for the school.

There are 96 players on the Valpo men's football team, and they are led by one head coach and 10 assistant coaches. As an interesting note on their academic performance, the team's APR is 956. Valpo brought in $1,243,116 in revenue from its football program while paying out $1,158,267 in expenses.

There are 93 players on the USD men’s football team, and they are led by one head coach and 12 assistant coaches. The team has an excellent academic progress rate of 977 - proof that they don’t ignore the importance of getting a good education. The football program at USD made $1,554,246 in revenue and spend $1,554,246 in expenses. Even though this means that the program didn’t make any money, at least it wasn’t in the red.

A terrible MVC program with scholarships and no fan support for comparison:

The football program at Indiana State made $4,370,196 in revenue and spend $4,184,677 in expenses. This equates to a net profit of $185,519 for the program. That's definitely a big plus

So it essentially costs about a million dollars a year. Give or take.

The revenues and expenses that schools submit in the EADA Reports are often misleading if you don’t know how the reporting works. For instance, money given to the athletic department from the school is reported as athletics revenue even though the school is technically spending money. Scholarships are reported as both revenue and an expense. Since a school is basically writing themselves a check, the money they make from cashing the check is reported as revenue. The money they spend writing the check is an expense. But for PFL football, there are no scholarships, so the expenses are pretty accurate.

Here’s what IS NOT reported in the EADA. Tuition. It’s not going to the athletic dept so it’s not considered revenue, but it is going to the institution. Xavier’s tuition is listed at over $42,000 a year. A roster of 100 players would make over $4 million a year in tuition dollars for the school.

And, there you have it! That’s how the benefits of PFL football can be worth the cost for a private school.

[xudash]

Nick - congrats on your success with fighting cancer.

[xu82]

Nick - congrats on your success with fighting cancer.

Whoa! I’m not sure where that came from, but I’d like to echo that.

[xubrew]

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/sports/college/finds-not-giving-football-scholarships-blessing/39WFqTAIogXmxbfB4T6VeK/?outputType=amp

So this is extremely old but it’s the latest I could find without really digging in.
My guess is that nowadays dayton is losing a million a season on football. If Xavier wants the equivalent of high school football I guess knock yourself out, but I think getting the basketball program to respectable year in and year out can also get another 100 guys to enroll without the added expense.

I’m having a really hard time seeing how this would benefit the university. I’d like to see some feasibility studies on this and see what they come up with.

The ATHLETIC DEPT is probably spending a million on football, but the institution is making three or four times that just off of the tuition that all of the players collectively pay. The school therefore has no problem giving the athletic department the million bucks they need to cover the expenses. They’re not losing money on football. Not really.

[Xville]

The ATHLETIC DEPT is probably spending a million on football, but the institution is making three or four times that just off of the tuition that all of the players collectively pay. The school therefore has no problem giving the athletic department the million bucks they need to cover the expenses. They’re not losing money on football. Not really.

I understand what you are saying. Let’s say for shits n giggles average student pays 35000 after aid etc so that’s 3.5 mil… a positive of 2.5. My guess is that if it was a net 2.5, Xavier would have done this a long time ago.

[xubrew]

I understand what you are saying. Let’s say for shits n giggles average student pays 35000 after aid etc so that’s 3.5 mil… a positive of 2.5. My guess is that if it was a net 2.5, Xavier would have done this a long time ago.

My guess is that for whatever reason the previous president never really even considered it and the current president is thinking “Why the hell aren’t we doing this?”

[GoMuskies]

You can bet on these games, so that's one thing going for it.

[nickgyp]

Nick - congrats on your success with fighting cancer.

Dash:

Thanks! It has been hard but the good Lord has truly blessed me with a wonderful family and excellent medical care. Lymphedema and taste bud issues remain but I am alive to post. In the scheme of things, basketball and football are not that important but remain fun to talk about.

[nickgyp]

Whoa! I’m not sure where that came from, but I’d like to echo that.

Thank you, 82! Bottom of my original post in this thread referenced my cancer journey. Over the decades, I have posted about Xavier football as I grew up on it. An uncle, Joe King, played football at X in the 1920's and he is a member of the Legion of Honor. My father played as a freshman before going off to the WWII. I was very involved with the club team after its inception. Tomorrow marks the 58th anniversary of the afternoon when I was struck by a car and left in a coma for eleven days. I was only 10 years old, If my football team had had practice that day then I wouldn't have been where the accident occurred. The brain contusion ended my football career and changed my life. As much as I miss Xavier football, I know there are way many more important things in life. As I previously stated, I am blessed. Go Muskies!!

[JTG]

You can bet on these games, so that's one thing going for it.

So we have parimutual windows at the stadium?

[nickgyp]

Isn't that the rugby team's job?
Could be but shouldn't the rugby team be called "The Norwood Laterals"???

[Xville]

Just saw x received a 50 million dollar gift. Wonder what that is earmarked for

[paulxu]

Football.

[xeus]

Just saw x received a 50 million dollar gift. Wonder what that is earmarked for

XU did? Or St X High School? St X had a $50M gift in February (Thanks Mr. Fath) but I hadn't seen the XU news on a gift that size.

[Xville]

XU did? Or St X High School? St X had a $50M gift in February (Thanks Mr. Fath) but I hadn't seen the XU news on a gift that size.

Just saw on linked in and double checked.. yep 50 million to Xavier university from mr and ms fath

[Final4]

Just saw x received a 50 million dollar gift. Wonder what that is earmarked for

I told them to use it to build a new dorm. Too many kids having to go three to a room.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Just saw on linked in and double checked.. yep 50 million to Xavier university from mr and ms fath

They are giving out 50 million dollar donations like its candy!

[ballyhoohoo]

Notre Dame and Mercy Ships also. They give away $50mm like me dropping farts on the subway

[Muskie]

I applaud X for the creativity. But anyone that says this won't effect Basketball is fooling themselves because they so badly want football. Even if it starts as a retention piece, someone somewhere will want to begin throwing money at it instead of basketball. "Why is our football team so bad, we need better equipment, coaches, players, lockerrooms, facilities!" The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Ladies and gentlemen this is the entrance to our "road to hell".

[XUGRAD80]

I applaud X for the creativity. But anyone that says this won't effect Basketball is fooling themselves because they so badly want football. Even if it starts as a retention piece, someone somewhere will want to begin throwing money at it instead of basketball. "Why is our football team so bad, we need better equipment, coaches, players, lockerrooms, facilities!" The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Ladies and gentlemen this is the entrance to our "road to hell".

Now that’s a bit of a stretch isn’t it? Certainly hasn’t hurt Villanova, has it? I’ve not heard of anyone there complaining about having funds taken from BB to support their football team. You might as well be complaining that funds used for all the other sports at X are draining funds from the men’s BB team.

[paulxu]

$50 million to St X, and XU.
How about paulxu?

[Muskie]

Now that’s a bit of a stretch isn’t it? Certainly hasn’t hurt Villanova, has it? I’ve not heard of anyone there complaining about having funds taken from BB to support their football team. You might as well be complaining that funds used for all the other sports at X are draining funds from the men’s BB team.

It's not a stretch. Look no further than Indiana State for a case study. They have competing alumni over funding for football or basketball. I get that people want football at X. But comparing to other sports at X is not a fair comparison. The cost to run a football program at any level far exceeds what X spends on other sports.

[XUGRAD80]

The cost to run a football program at any level far exceeds what X spends on other sports.

Do you have any idea how much X spends on all the other sports? Or how much money they are talking about for football?

[JTG]

It's not a stretch. Look no further than Indiana State for a case study. They have competing alumni over funding for football or basketball. I get that people want football at X. But comparing to other sports at X is not a fair comparison. The cost to run a football program at any level far exceeds what X spends on other sports.

Cmon Muskie, you can't be this dense. ISU is a state school with D1 football. It hasn't affected Butler, or UD, or Nova, or the other schools. $1.2 mil expenses out, $3.5 mil in from tuition. It's a net plus. There is NO intention to go D1 now or ever. The model stated makes it self sustaining, and if it starts to fail, I'll be first in line to say end it.

[GoMuskies]

There is NO intention to go D1 now or ever.

Xavier football will be D1 or it will not exist. It cannot play anything but DI football if it wants to play DI basketball. It would be in the same division as Indiana State. It would simply be non-scholarship and play a bunch of other non-scholarships.

[xubrew]

It's not a stretch. Look no further than Indiana State for a case study. They have competing alumni over funding for football or basketball. I get that people want football at X. But comparing to other sports at X is not a fair comparison. The cost to run a football program at any level far exceeds what X spends on other sports.

Indiana State is a public institution with scholarship football. That's not at all the same thing as a private school with non-scholarship football that plays in the PFL. A general PFL football budget is $1 million a year. That's for EVERYTHING! Salaries, travel, game day expenses, equipment, EVERYTHING. There are non-revenue country club sports that spend more than that. If a school in the PFL were to suddenly spend $5 million on football, the league may actually vote them out.

I believe every single PFL program is supplemented by the institution. It's not any sort of extra expense to the athletic department. It's literally "OK Mr. AD, your total expenses are $1 million this year?? Here's a check for $1 million! Glad to hand this over to you!! We took it out of the $4 million we made from the tuition all the players collectively paid!!" It's a straight up D3 model.


Xavier football will be D1 or it will not exist. It cannot play anything but DI football if it wants to play DI basketball. It would be in the same division as Indiana State. It would simply be non-scholarship and play a bunch of other non-scholarships.

Correct. It would TECHNICALLY be D1, but PRACTICALLY be D3.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Not sure I buy the it costs the school nothing, they make more off tuition argument.

There have to be other factors or unintended consequences to consider, right? I am not positive what those are but one might be, insurance. Does there need to be some sort of new insurance the school takes out to protect themselves now that they have added the dangerous sport of football?

Also most of these students probably wont be paying full tuition right? I would think a large % of the general student body gets some sort of scholarship. So it isnt as much in tuition as some have suggested.

If it is such an easy no brainer revenue generator, which is what is being suggested. Why isnt every small school without football doing it?

[Jehoya]

Seems to be some twitter talk, and talk on other boards, if X bringing back football in some small capacity. Anybody hearing anything on this? Also, seems to be some talk X is looking at starting a med school 🤔

[GoMuskies]

First I've heard of it. Someone should start a thread about it.

[xubrew]

I understand what you are saying. Let’s say for shits n giggles average student pays 35000 after aid etc so that’s 3.5 mil… a positive of 2.5. My guess is that if it was a net 2.5, Xavier would have done this a long time ago.

Getting back to why Xavier didn't decide to do this a long time ago, I think it's because people just didn't understand how it would/could work, so they just decided that it wouldn't. The new president seems to think differently. She came from a private school that had football, so she knows how it can work, and that a lot of the reasons people come up with as to how it won't work just aren't valid reasons. That's my guess as to why it's happening now.


Not sure I buy the it costs the school nothing, they make more off tuition argument.

There have to be other factors or unintended consequences to consider, right? I am not positive what those are but one might be, insurance. Does there need to be some sort of new insurance the school takes out to protect themselves now that they have added the dangerous sport of football?

Also most of these students probably wont be paying full tuition right? I would think a large % of the general student body gets some sort of scholarship. So it isnt as much in tuition as some have suggested.

If it is such an easy no brainer revenue generator, which is what is being suggested. Why isnt every small school without football doing it?

My answer is that I have no clue. Maybe they feel it isn't part of their culture. Maybe they don't fully understand how it can be beneficial. Maybe the benefits it can provide don't match the immediate needs or wishes of the school.

Now I have some questions...

-Why do all of the small private schools who do have football continue to have it?? If it's not ultimately a financial benefit for the school, then why would so many of them continue to do it?

-Why have so many schools decided to add it??

-Why have so many schools that have added it decided to not immediately cut it if it turned out to not work out for them?

-To better state the question above, why haven't there been any noticeable outcries from schools that recently added football about how doing so depleted resources for the rest of the athletics department and campus that are no longer available because of football??

[nickgyp]

Sounds good to me. I always wanted to go to med school and with four years eligibility left, I think this might work.

[xudash]

Seems to be some twitter talk, and talk on other boards, if X bringing back football in some small capacity. Anybody hearing anything on this? Also, seems to be some talk X is looking at starting a med school ��

Ha! How is this info getting out!! I guess we are in the quiet "spread it around a little" info phase.

[D-West & PO-Z]

First I've heard of it. Someone should start a thread about it.

Reps!

[D-West & PO-Z]

Getting back to why Xavier didn't decide to do this a long time ago, I think it's because people just didn't understand how it would/could work, so they just decided that it wouldn't. The new president seems to think differently. She came from a private school that had football, so she knows how it can work, and that a lot of the reasons people come up with as to how it won't work just aren't valid reasons. That's my guess as to why it's happening now.



My answer is that I have no clue. Maybe they feel it isn't part of their culture. Maybe they don't fully understand how it can be beneficial. Maybe the benefits it can provide don't match the immediate needs or wishes of the school.

Now I have some questions...

-Why do all of the small private schools who do have football continue to have it?? If it's not ultimately a financial benefit for the school, then why would so many of them continue to do it?

-Why have so many schools decided to add it??

-Why have so many schools that have added it decided to not immediately cut it if it turned out to not work out for them?

-To better state the question above, why haven't there been any noticeable outcries from schools that recently added football about how doing so depleted resources for the rest of the athletics department and campus that are no longer available because of football??

Good questions.

I am not aware of the schools who are similar to Xavier that have recently added it. Which schools have added it in the last 5 or so years? I would love to see how its going for them. Maybe X is really on to something and it is straight profit and added experience to the school. That would be great!

[XUGRAD80]

Good questions.

I am not aware of the schools who are similar to Xavier that have recently added it. Which schools have added it in the last 5 or so years? I would love to see how its going for them. Maybe X is really on to something and it is straight profit and added experience to the school. That would be great!

The closest match that I can think of is Mt St Joesph’s, right here in the west side of Cincinnati. It’s got 1800 undergrads, it’s a private Catholic university, tuition averages 18K after student aid, and while it plays D3 ball, it’s very competitive at its level on a national basis. Their annual football budget is around 450K. It started the program in 2007, so it’s in its 15th year. I have no idea how they draw, but it hasn’t seem to be detrimental to the rest of their mens and womens programs. They are a non-athletic scholarship program too.

Thomas More also started football around the same time. Their mens and womens BB programs are both ranked in the top 5 preseason in NAIA this year and have been extremely competitive nationally at their level for several years. Their football budget is around 700k, but they also give out athletic scholarships. In fact, they left D3 and moved back to NAIA so they could give scholarships and play more schools in the area, thus cutting down on travel expenses.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The closest match that I can think of is Mt St Joesph’s, right here in the west side of Cincinnati. It’s got 1800 undergrads, it’s a private Catholic university, tuition averages 18K after student aid, and while it plays D3 ball, it’s very competitive at its level on a national basis. Their annual football budget is around 450K. It started the program in 2007, so it’s in its 15th year. I have no idea how they draw, but it hasn’t seem to be detrimental to the rest of their mens and womens programs. They are a non-athletic scholarship program too.

Thomas More also started football around the same time. Their mens and womens BB programs are both ranked in the top 5 preseason in NAIA this year and have been extremely competitive nationally at their level for several years. Their football budget is around 700k, but they also give out athletic scholarships. In fact, they left D3 and moved back to NAIA so they could give scholarships and play more schools in the area, thus cutting down on travel expenses.

I wonder how Xavier being division 1 in a big time conference in their other sports helps or hurts Xavier (if either) in this comparison?

[JTG]

Getting back to why Xavier didn't decide to do this a long time ago, I think it's because people just didn't understand how it would/could work, so they just decided that it wouldn't. The new president seems to think differently. She came from a private school that had football, so she knows how it can work, and that a lot of the reasons people come up with as to how it won't work just aren't valid reasons. That's my guess as to why it's happening now.



My answer is that I have no clue. Maybe they feel it isn't part of their culture. Maybe they don't fully understand how it can be beneficial. Maybe the benefits it can provide don't match the immediate needs or wishes of the school.

Now I have some questions...

-Why do all of the small private schools who do have football continue to have it?? If it's not ultimately a financial benefit for the school, then why would so many of them continue to do it?

-Why have so many schools decided to add it??

-Why have so many schools that have added it decided to not immediately cut it if it turned out to not work out for them?

-To better state the question above, why haven't there been any noticeable outcries from schools that recently added football about how doing so depleted resources for the rest of the athletics department and campus that are no longer available because of football??

You bring up some great points. I have long wondered how so many tiny schools can have football, and it seems to thrive, even places that draw maybe 900-1500 fans a game. It has to be the tuition vs expense argument. Maybe it's just a very well-kept secret. So why not X?

[xubrew]

I wonder how Xavier being division 1 in a big time conference in their other sports helps or hurts Xavier (if either) in this comparison?

Most D1 schools that have recently added football have done so because they felt the need to strengthen their foothold within D1. I believe there are only seven conferences that don't play football at any level (America East, A10, Big East, Big West, Horizon, MVC, Summit League, WCC). If you're not in one of those conferences, and you don't have football, you're going to feel like you're at a huge political disadvantage when it comes to your place within the conference. And even with that, several schools within the MVC, Summit League, and A10 field football teams. So, the schools who are adding football aren't really in the same boat that Xavier's in.

D1 non-scholarship football is a very limited scope. Most of those schools have actually had football for a very long time. There's the Ivy League, which isn't really applicable to Xavier either, and there's the PFL. Believe it or not, I think most of those schools have had football for over 100 years. So...it's not that they just added it. I think the better question to ask is why are they choosing to play non-scholarship football in the PFL?? The PFL is actually relatively new, and not all the teams have been in it for that long.

The answer is it helps with male enrollment, and it therefore makes money for the institution.

Here is something else that is undeniably true. You're not going to lose more than a million dollars on football if you're only spending a million dollars on it in the first place. I think nearly every small private school, who charges private school tuition, would happily spend a million dollars a year on ANYTHING that they felt would virtually guarantee them 100 tuition paying students a year. If it were a rec center, they'd do it. If it were an eSports club, they'd do it. If it were a foodcourt, they'd do it.

Football will guarantee them 100 students that would not otherwise be there. Are there other ways to attract students?? Sure. But football is definitely on the list.

And aside from all that, it doesn't COST the athletic department ANYTHING. That's why Butler, and Dayton, and Davidson (who's been to the playoffs) never even consider leaving the PFL. That's why when San Diego looked like they were going to implement scholarships and go to the Big Sky, they decided not to. The WCC is a better basketball conference, and the overall cost to football for the athletic dept. was zero.

[Masterofreality]

Most D1 schools that have recently added football have done so because they felt the need to strengthen their foothold within D1. I believe there are only seven conferences that don't play football at any level (America East, A10, Big East, Big West, Horizon, MVC, Summit League, WCC). If you're not in one of those conferences, and you don't have football, you're going to feel like you're at a huge political disadvantage when it comes to your place within the conference. And even with that, several schools within the MVC, Summit League, and A10 field football teams. So, the schools who are adding football aren't really in the same boat that Xavier's in.

D1 non-scholarship football is a very limited scope. Most of those schools have actually had football for a very long time. There's the Ivy League, which isn't really applicable to Xavier either, and there's the PFL. Believe it or not, I think most of those schools have had football for over 100 years. So...it's not that they just added it. I think the better question to ask is why are they choosing to play non-scholarship football in the PFL?? The PFL is actually relatively new, and not all the teams have been in it for that long.

The answer is it helps with male enrollment, and it therefore makes money for the institution.

Here is something else that is undeniably true. You're not going to lose more than a million dollars on football if you're only spending a million dollars on it in the first place. I think nearly every small private school, who charges private school tuition, would happily spend a million dollars a year on ANYTHING that they felt would virtually guarantee them 100 tuition paying students a year. If it were a rec center, they'd do it. If it were an eSports club, they'd do it. If it were a foodcourt, they'd do it.

Football will guarantee them 100 students that would not otherwise be there. Are there other ways to attract students?? Sure. But football is definitely on the list.

And aside from all that, it doesn't COST the athletic department ANYTHING. That's why Butler, and Dayton, and Davidson (who's been to the playoffs) never even consider leaving the PFL. That's why when San Diego looked like they were going to implement scholarships and go to the Big Sky, they decided not to. The WCC is a better basketball conference, and the overall cost to football for the athletic dept. was zero.

This is great stuff. Thanks for the insight Brew!

[XUGRAD80]

They are sure as heck spending more than a million dollars on the new practice gym and other capital improvements to Cintas.

[XU '11]

And aside from all that, it doesn't COST the athletic department ANYTHING. That's why Butler, and Dayton, and Davidson (who's been to the playoffs) never even consider leaving the PFL. That's why when San Diego looked like they were going to implement scholarships and go to the Big Sky, they decided not to. The WCC is a better basketball conference, and the overall cost to football for the athletic dept. was zero.

This just isn't true. Sure, it doesn't cost as much as scholarship football but it isn't free. Even if we say the university will take the increased tuition payments and pay for the $1.5mil football budget...

The athletic director will spend time worrying about football instead of the existing sports. We will need additional athletic trainers and athletic training space. We will need more support staff in every area -- compliance, academic support, sports information, strength and conditioning -- and bigger spaces to accommodate the 100 additional student athletes.

And the biggest issue: if we add 100 male student athletes, we'd need to add about 130 female student athletes to stay in Title IX compliance (since the university is currently about 57% female). So we'd go from supporting about 330 student athletes to a whopping 550. This is a terrible idea.

[paulxu]

Do the Title IX requirements come into play if it's non-scholarship football?

[XUGRAD80]

Do the Title IX requirements come into play if it's non-scholarship football?

I don’t think so….

“Under Title IX, an educational institution must provide male and female athletes with equal access to financial aid. This means that funds allocated to athletic scholarships must be proportionate to the participation of male and female athletes.”

[XU '11]

Do the Title IX requirements come into play if it's non-scholarship football?

Yes. There are three aspects to Title IX compliance:

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX:

(1) For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
• Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
• Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
• Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,

(2) Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,

(3) Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above.

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2014/1/27/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions.aspx#how

So it is true that non-scholarship football doesn't affect the scholarship piece. But if you lose the proportional opportunities aspect, it's really hard to demonstrate the other two participation options while adding a men's sport.

[JTG]

This just isn't true. Sure, it doesn't cost as much as scholarship football but it isn't free. Even if we say the university will take the increased tuition payments and pay for the $1.5mil football budget...

The athletic director will spend time worrying about football instead of the existing sports. We will need additional athletic trainers and athletic training space. We will need more support staff in every area -- compliance, academic support, sports information, strength and conditioning -- and bigger spaces to accommodate the 100 additional student athletes.

And the biggest issue: if we add 100 male student athletes, we'd need to add about 130 female student athletes to stay in Title IX compliance (since the university is currently about 57% female). So we'd go from supporting about 330 student athletes to a whopping 550. This is a terrible idea.
If it was a terrible idea it would have been shot down from the start. The staff, coaches, equipment and insurance are all part of the football budget, and there are examples all over the Midwest that this is doable. Even being very conservative, say the 100 athletes pay $28k a year, and the budget is $1.5Mil. That's still a $1.3mil cushion. Believe me, Butler is one of the most tightwad schools in America, and they have had football since forever. That alone is proof that this will work.

[coasterville95]

Would not be the first time - I think around 2007-2009 a club football team actually took the field - maybe two seasons until it folded. It got a lot of talk then as an attempt to revive the program..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[X-band '01]

Most D1 schools that have recently added football have done so because they felt the need to strengthen their foothold within D1. I believe there are only seven conferences that don't play football at any level (America East, A10, Big East, Big West, Horizon, MVC, Summit League, WCC). If you're not in one of those conferences, and you don't have football, you're going to feel like you're at a huge political disadvantage when it comes to your place within the conference. And even with that, several schools within the MVC, Summit League, and A10 field football teams. So, the schools who are adding football aren't really in the same boat that Xavier's in.

D1 non-scholarship football is a very limited scope. Most of those schools have actually had football for a very long time. There's the Ivy League, which isn't really applicable to Xavier either, and there's the PFL. Believe it or not, I think most of those schools have had football for over 100 years. So...it's not that they just added it. I think the better question to ask is why are they choosing to play non-scholarship football in the PFL?? The PFL is actually relatively new, and not all the teams have been in it for that long.

The answer is it helps with male enrollment, and it therefore makes money for the institution.

Here is something else that is undeniably true. You're not going to lose more than a million dollars on football if you're only spending a million dollars on it in the first place. I think nearly every small private school, who charges private school tuition, would happily spend a million dollars a year on ANYTHING that they felt would virtually guarantee them 100 tuition paying students a year. If it were a rec center, they'd do it. If it were an eSports club, they'd do it. If it were a foodcourt, they'd do it.

Football will guarantee them 100 students that would not otherwise be there. Are there other ways to attract students?? Sure. But football is definitely on the list.

And aside from all that, it doesn't COST the athletic department ANYTHING. That's why Butler, and Dayton, and Davidson (who's been to the playoffs) never even consider leaving the PFL. That's why when San Diego looked like they were going to implement scholarships and go to the Big Sky, they decided not to. The WCC is a better basketball conference, and the overall cost to football for the athletic dept. was zero.

Dayton also went to the FCS playoffs one year and even hosted a game, but nobody showed up for that. They were down in Orlando instead watching Xavier dump-truck them in the Old Spice Invitational that year.

[xubrew]

Do the Title IX requirements come into play if it's non-scholarship football?


Yes. There are three aspects to Title IX compliance:

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX:

(1) For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
• Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
• Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
• Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,

(2) Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,

(3) Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above.

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2014/1/27/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions.aspx#how

So it is true that non-scholarship football doesn't affect the scholarship piece. But if you lose the proportional opportunities aspect, it's really hard to demonstrate the other two participation options while adding a men's sport.

The infamous "third prong" of Title IX. If the underrepresented sex's interests and abilities are being met, then a school is not in violation. In other words, if they have the things they want, or are not being denied anything that the non-underrepresented (men's) teams are getting, then a school is in compliance.

[xubrew]

This just isn't true. Sure, it doesn't cost as much as scholarship football but it isn't free. Even if we say the university will take the increased tuition payments and pay for the $1.5mil football budget...

The athletic director will spend time worrying about football instead of the existing sports. We will need additional athletic trainers and athletic training space. We will need more support staff in every area -- compliance, academic support, sports information, strength and conditioning -- and bigger spaces to accommodate the 100 additional student athletes.

And the biggest issue: if we add 100 male student athletes, we'd need to add about 130 female student athletes to stay in Title IX compliance (since the university is currently about 57% female). So we'd go from supporting about 330 student athletes to a whopping 550. This is a terrible idea.

No they wouldn't. There are other ways to be in compliance with Title IX. You don't have to have equal representation so long as you're "meeting all the needs" of the underrepresented sex.

And..."The athletic director will spend time worrying about football instead of the existing sports"??? This is just a silly thing to raise as a concern.

[XU '11]

No they wouldn't. There are other ways to be in compliance with Title IX. You don't have to have equal representation so long as you're "meeting all the needs" of the underrepresented sex.

And..."The athletic director will spend time worrying about football instead of the existing sports"??? This is just a silly thing to raise as a concern.

You can always just hope that you don’t get sued. Most schools are not in Title IX compliance but nobody cares enough to make a fuss. Until a disgruntled volleyball player with a lawyer dad quits the team and sues because we don’t have a beach volleyball team.

The Xavier club sports website currently lists equestrian, fencing, field hockey, gymnastics and softball but NOT football. There’s no way “fully accommodating the interests and abilities” would hold up.

[XUGRAD80]

I’m not sure if XU11 is a lawyer or not, but I’m guessing that the university has a few who specialize in sports compliance rules that they can call on. I’ll trust their judgement and advice over anyone else’s. Using his formula, I have to wonder how any college that has mens football gets away with having any other mens sports teams? Heck, a 100 man football roster would need 4-5 women’s sports fielding full rosters just to equal out what the football team has. Yet somehow they do manage to field a bunch of other men’s sports at the same time that they are fielding a football team. And I don’t see where they have 15-20 different women’s sports teams.

FYI….as things stand now after Xavier added women’s lacrosse this year, there are currently 181 men and 186 women that are members of ncaa athletic teams at Xavier University. (Not “club” sports). There are 8 men’s teams and 9 women’s teams.

The average male participant that receives athletic department aid receives $15,096
The average female participant receives 18,171

So I’m guessing (just guessing) that other things than just pure numbers of participants factors in.

Keep in mind that Title IX legislation never even uses the words, sports, athletics, teams, scholarships, etc. It was not written as “sports” legislation. It has been used by lawyers/courts in that fashion, but that was not its original intent.

[paulxu]

(2) Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,




Keep in mind that Title IX legislation never even uses the words, sports, athletics, teams, scholarships, etc. It was not written as “sports” legislation. It has been used by lawyers/courts in that fashion, but that was not its original intent.

If the first is a quote from the NCAA rules, then they do mention scholarships.

If you played non-scholarship football, couldn't you offer non-scholarship opportunities in other sports to the women?

[XUGRAD80]

If the first is a quote from the NCAA rules, then they do mention scholarships.

If you played non-scholarship football, couldn't you offer non-scholarship opportunities in other sports to the women?

Title IX legislation is not a part of the NCAA rules. The NCAA rules do address the legislation, but the legislation…as written by Congress, not the NCAA….was meant to deal with sex discrimination in businesses that had federal contracts or received federal aid. The only reason that schools have to pay any attention to it is because almost everyone of them either receives some federal money or has contracts with federal agencies where it receives some money. The legislation basically says that if sex discrimination is found that the contracts can be voided and money can be withheld.

I believe that the quote you mention is actually from a court case ruling and is guidance from the courts on how it may be applied to school sports teams.

[xubrew]

You can always just hope that you don’t get sued. Most schools are not in Title IX compliance but nobody cares enough to make a fuss. Until a disgruntled volleyball player with a lawyer dad quits the team and sues because we don’t have a beach volleyball team.

The Xavier club sports website currently lists equestrian, fencing, field hockey, gymnastics and softball but NOT football. There’s no way “fully accommodating the interests and abilities” would hold up.

Volleyball is a head count sport. Those who are on scholarship are on full scholarships. Their Title IX rights would not be violated by a non-scholarship sport. What’s funny about this example is that the main reason a lot of schools would add a sport like beach volleyball is so they can sort of bend the rules of Title IX. You can count all your volleyball players twice by saying they’re on both teams. So, such a lawsuit would likely not succeed. For me personally, I think a more plausible Title IX lawsuit (which I think we may actually see some day) will be along the lines of “Why do we have to go through the motions of competing in a second sport just so we can be counted twice? That’s not fair and equal!”

Look, you're listing club sports as if they somehow apply to Title IX within athletics. I really don't think you know what you're talking about, I don't think you understand anything about the intricacies of Title IX and how it would apply to adding non scholarship football, and that you're COMPLETELY wrong about how "most schools are not in Title IX compliance." Does this mean that most schools are lying on their annual EADA reports??

EDIT: Just to be clear, when talking about sports that are created for pretty much the sole purpose of creating double counters some day being a potential Title IX lawsuit, I don't mean at Xavier. I just meant some place in general.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I have read a lot about Title IX over the years as it is very confusing and people misunderstand it all the time. Most of us have no idea what we are talking about when we argue about it, me at the top of the list. It is a very intricate confusing topic for us average college sports fans.

I will say, I have also read that many many schools (not sure if most or not) are not truly Title IX compliant but it requires a suit from CURRENT athletes at the school to make anyone look at it. There was recently a case highlighted on espn.com about I think the SD State (or some school in Cali) that cut one of the women's programs and they women on that team had to get women from the softball team (a sport that was still active) to bring the suit.

[XU '11]

Volleyball is a head count sport. Those who are on scholarship are on full scholarships. Their Title IX rights would not be violated by a non-scholarship sport. What’s funny about this example is that the main reason a lot of schools would add a sport like beach volleyball is so they can sort of bend the rules of Title IX. You can count all your volleyball players twice by saying they’re on both teams. So, such a lawsuit would likely not succeed. For me personally, I think a more plausible Title IX lawsuit (which I think we may actually see some day) will be along the lines of “Why do we have to go through the motions of competing in a second sport just so we can be counted twice? That’s not fair and equal!”

Look, you're listing club sports as if they somehow apply to Title IX within athletics. I really don't think you know what you're talking about, I don't think you understand anything about the intricacies of Title IX and how it would apply to adding non scholarship football, and that you're COMPLETELY wrong about how "most schools are not in Title IX compliance." Does this mean that most schools are lying on their annual EADA reports??

EDIT: Just to be clear, when talking about sports that are created for pretty much the sole purpose of creating double counters some day being a potential Title IX lawsuit, I don't mean at Xavier. I just meant some place in general.

I know club sports don't matter to Title IX.

But if Xavier's legal argument is that they are fulfilling the Title IX requirements not by proportional participation numbers, but by "Fully and effectively accommodating the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex", the abundance of women's club sports that Xavier chooses not to offer as a varsity sport would be a tough sell.

[XU '11]

If the first is a quote from the NCAA rules, then they do mention scholarships.

If you played non-scholarship football, couldn't you offer non-scholarship opportunities in other sports to the women?

Yes.

[XU '11]

Does this mean that most schools are lying on their annual EADA reports??

No. Just that most female athletes don't have any incentive to sue their school.

[xubrew]

I know club sports don't matter to Title IX.

But if Xavier's legal argument is that they are fulfilling the Title IX requirements not by proportional participation numbers, but by "Fully and effectively accommodating the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex", the abundance of women's club sports that Xavier chooses not to offer as a varsity sport would be a tough sell.

That's a student activities issue, not an intercollegiate athletics issue. The question in that case would be are there equal opportunities and resources within student activities? This is a COMPLETE non-issue! You're just imagining things.

But, to your point, if there was a clear inequality in intercollegiate athletics, and Xavier's response to that was to point to club sports, then yes that would be a very serious problem with that explanation.

If you're asking questions so you yourself can better understand it, that's one thing. But if you're actually trying to definitively say that these are actual issues, you are 1000% percent wrong.

[xubrew]

No. Just that most female athletes don't have any incentive to sue their school.

So when these reports are submitted to the federal government, you don't think they'd bother to alert the school to the fact that they are not within compliance??

[XUGRAD80]

The following is the actual title IX legislation as written and signed into law by President Nixon in 1972…..

“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”

It was meant to update the 1964 a Civil Rights Act that dealt with many forms of discrimination in business, but did not mention anything about discrimination in education.

The key word in it for the discussion here is….activity. That’s how and why it came to be such a point of contention when dealing with college sports. If colleges did not receive any Federal financial assistance, they wouldn’t have to worry about it. ( In fact, Hillsdale College in Michigan makes it a point to not accept any federal financial assistance and therefore has no title IX stipulations that it has to uphold. ) But since virtually every college in the land does receives some form of federal assistance, this legislation has been used to deal with discrimination based on sex in ALL facets of college life….academic and athletic.

[xubrew]

The following is the actual title IX legislation as written and signed into law by President Nixon in 1972…..

“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”

It was meant to update the 1964 a Civil Rights Act that dealt with many forms of discrimination in business, but did not mention anything about discrimination in education.

The key word in it for the discussion here is….activity. That’s how and why it came to be such a point of contention when dealing with college sports. If colleges did not receive any Federal financial assistance, they wouldn’t have to worry about it. ( In fact, Hillsdale College in Michigan makes it a point to not accept any federal financial assistance and therefore has no title IX stipulations that it has to uphold. ) But since virtually every college in the land does receives some form of federal assistance, this legislation has been used to deal with discrimination based on sex in ALL facets of college life….academic and athletic.

I really don't know how it works outside of athletics. Does student activities have to submit a report every year? Does Housing? Does Enrollment Services? I don't know. I really don't. If they do, then I have no idea what those reports look like.

I just know that athletics does have to submit the EADA reports every year. And it absolutely does not include things like club sports, or student activities, or housing, or academic programs, or anything like that. I don't know Xavier's specific situation, but I can say with relative confidence that generally speaking, adding non-scholarship football would not throw Title IX out of whack. It's NON SCHOLARSHIP, so the part about athletic aid wouldn't even be impacted at all.

[XUGRAD80]

I really don't know how it works outside of athletics. Does student activities have to submit a report every year? Does Housing? Does Enrollment Services? I don't know. I really don't. If they do, then I have no idea what those reports look like.

I just know that athletics does have to submit the EADA reports every year. And it absolutely does not include things like club sports, or student activities, or housing, or academic programs, or anything like that. I don't know Xavier's specific situation, but I can say with relative confidence that generally speaking, adding non-scholarship football would not throw Title IX out of whack. It's NON SCHOLARSHIP, so the part about athletic aid wouldn't even be impacted at all.

I don’t know if there are any reports like you mention done. I kind of doubt that there are. But I know that there have been lawsuits brought against schools for sex discrimination as described in the legislation that have had nothing to do with anything happening in an athletic department.

I do know that numbers of participants is not the be all and end all for determining discrimination and that it is up to the one being the suit to prove discrimination, it’s not up to the one being sued to prove that there isn’t any. Someone can claim discrimination all they want. Proving it is something else. Showing that there is no discrimination within the housing, employment, etc. is not something that the legislation says must happen. However, there many be additional rules and regulations imposed by agencies that make reporting such things a requirement. I just don’t know, and I’m not afraid to admit that.

[xubrew]

Getting back to why Xavier didn't decide to do this a long time ago, I think it's because people just didn't understand how it would/could work, so they just decided that it wouldn't. The new president seems to think differently. She came from a private school that had football, so she knows how it can work, and that a lot of the reasons people come up with as to how it won't work just aren't valid reasons. That's my guess as to why it's happening now.



My answer is that I have no clue. Maybe they feel it isn't part of their culture. Maybe they don't fully understand how it can be beneficial. Maybe the benefits it can provide don't match the immediate needs or wishes of the school.

Now I have some questions...

-Why do all of the small private schools who do have football continue to have it?? If it's not ultimately a financial benefit for the school, then why would so many of them continue to do it?

-Why have so many schools decided to add it??

-Why have so many schools that have added it decided to not immediately cut it if it turned out to not work out for them?

-To better state the question above, why haven't there been any noticeable outcries from schools that recently added football about how doing so depleted resources for the rest of the athletics department and campus that are no longer available because of football??

So while discussing this offline last night, it was pointed out to me that La Salle cut football back in 2007. The person who pointed this out did so rather emphatically and really enjoyed himself as he did so. I can't say I blame him. When you think a team has existed for fifteen years that actually hasn't existed at all, you deserve to get your balls busted.

Well....I guess I missed that memo.

[GoMuskies]

I think the 50 year non-losing streak will be too much pressure to put on the kids who would come to Xavier to play football.

[Lamont Sanford]

Do we REALLY need to resurrect the football program in order to get more males to X? If the current student population is 57% female (or that don't identify as male for the libs), that should be enough of a determining factor for most 18yo males.

[xubrew]

Do we REALLY need to resurrect the football program in order to get more males to X? If the current student population is 57% female (or that don't identify as male for the libs), that should be enough of a determining factor for most 18yo males.

No. But there's a lot of things we don't need. Not needing something in and of itself isn't a reason to not do it.

[xubrew]

The way the mere mention of football at Xavier makes some people roll their eyes all the way into the backs of their heads is one of those Xavier things that I just don't quite understand. I get that for a lot of people football just isn't their thing. Hell, for a lot of people at Xavier basketball isn't their thing either. I had several friends that I'm still really close to that never went to a single game and couldn't have cared less if the program even existed. But...

'FOOTBALL!!?? OH MY GOD!! WHAT THE HELL ARE WE THINKING??!!!" As if all the things they like about the world will suddenly cease to exist.

At most, those who don't care about it, which I realize is probably most people, will barely even notice that it's there. Those who are excited about it, which isn't many but is a few, will like it.

But at Xavier, there has always been a third category. Those that choose to hate it, and actually actively decide to be bothered by it, and use their imaginations to come up with some rather creative reasons as to how football will somehow ruin everything. After every game that Xavier loses, I can almost guarantee there will be a small clan of people who go out of their way to discuss all the ways this is bad for all of humanity, and question why it was ever implemented, and how everything would be right with the world again if Xavier would just cut it. I just don't quite understand that. It seems kind of silly to me...but it's definitely a noticeable part of the Xavier orbit.

[GoMuskies]

I think almost everyone here likes football. I think almost everyone here has never seen or thought or cared about a Pioneer League football game. And that will generally continue if Xavier gets a Pioneer League football team. It just seems pointless to start a program that is designed to suck as a way to make money by generating tuition dollars from the players' parents.

If they do, they do. Being able to call Xavier undefeated since '73 is more valuable to me personally (and believe me, that's of almost no value to me) than bringing high school football for slightly older kids to Victory Parkway.

[xubrew]

I think almost everyone here likes football. I think almost everyone here has never seen or thought or cared about a Pioneer League football game. And that will generally continue if Xavier gets a Pioneer League football team. It just seems pointless to start a program that is designed to suck as a way to make money by generating tuition dollars from the players' parents.

If they do, they do. Being able to call Xavier undefeated since '73 is more valuable to me personally (and believe me, that's of almost no value to me) than bringing high school football for slightly older kids to Victory Parkway.

I just find it funny that if Xavier were to allot a million dollars to redo all the bathrooms, no one would notice or care. Spending a million dollars on football, all of which would be made back and/or supplemented, sends people into a tizzy.

[drudy23]

I think almost everyone here likes football. I think almost everyone here has never seen or thought or cared about a Pioneer League football game. And that will generally continue if Xavier gets a Pioneer League football team. It just seems pointless to start a program that is designed to suck as a way to make money by generating tuition dollars from the players' parents.

If they do, they do. Being able to call Xavier undefeated since '73 is more valuable to me personally (and believe me, that's of almost no value to me) than bringing high school football for slightly older kids to Victory Parkway.

This.

[MHettel]

No. But there's a lot of things we don't need. Not needing something in and of itself isn't a reason to not do it.

what are you even talking about?

[MHettel]

I cant help but separate the ideas of startup costs and operating costs.

If a school has a current football program with a staff, equipment, facilities, and all that stuff, then they may be able to operate that program on a relatively thin budget.

But we are starting from SCRATCH. We dont have anything at all. The startups costs will be a few million easy.

Also, when I look at the reported "numbers" from some of these programs, it's pretty clear that there are inconsistent methods to report revenues and expenses.

I notices that 2 of the school JUST HAPPENED to have revenue that EXACTLY MATCHED their expenses? really?

I just think this is a dumb idea.

You know what would be a better idea? Add a Navy and Air Force ROTC program. Many, if not most of those students are on scholarship that is paid by the military. We can all say that adding football would add 100 males paying full tuition, but in reality, we know that many of those guys would get partial academic scholarships so, we cant just multiple 100 *42K. But when the military is paying the bills, we can charge full tuition....

[xubrew]

what are you even talking about?

No, Xavier doesn’t need to start football. But that still doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t.

[xubrew]

I notices that 2 of the school JUST HAPPENED to have revenue that EXACTLY MATCHED their expenses? really?

This is actually quite common. It means that the athletic dept. is having the costs supplemented by the institution. If a school gives money to the athletic dept, it’s reported as revenue. If the numbers are identical, it almost assuredly means that the school gave them the exact amount of money they needed to cover the expenses. The reason the school would do this is because they’re making enough money off of the tuition to make it worth it to them. This is basically a straight up D3 model. It costs the athletic dept nothing, and while it costs the school money, what they’re making off tuition exceeds the overall cost.

[Jehoya]

I’m all for it, would have 100 percent gone to games as a student. I went to soccer and baseball games, and I could care less about either of those sports in real life. Football on the other hand would be a blast. I liked when we had club, as a ton of my friends played. Great idea! Let’s GOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[nickgyp]

Xavier '11 questions the application of Title IX to the addition of non-scholarship football at Xavier. As an interested Xavier football fan, I have over the years examined Title IX and its implications for returning football Xavier particularly at the non-scholarship level. I am an attorney albeit inactive after retiring from 35 years as a prosecutor. Even to me, the interpretation of Title IX's application is not entirely clear as '11 points out; however, whether women's club sports count as opportunities for Title IX's purposes is debatable. Litigation might have to resolve such question but, as has been pointed, there hasn't been much litigation history particularly in this regard.

As has also been noted, Title IX seems more concerned with opportunities than actual numbers of participants. The University of New Orleans is now considering football after a couple sets of years playing at the club level. (Xavier's club team defeated the UNO club team at Roger Bacon stadium a decade or so ago.) In 1999, a UNO alum examined Title IX as non-scholarship football. I attach the following not as an exhaustive legal analysis of the issue but only as some serious thought to the question. For the record, I recall having read an Ohio State law professor's examination of the topic but, as of yet, I have been unable to locate it.

/https://www.angelfire.com/la/uno/proposal.html#:~:text=A%20Proposal%20For,Football% 20Main%20Page


In significant part, summarized:

Proposal For Non-Scholarship Division I-AA Football at the University of New Orleans

1.
It is well within the capability of the University of New Orleans to bring to UNO students, alumni and the Louisiana sports scene, on-campus Saturday night college football played outdoors on real grass between teams made up of real student athletes in a stadium in which alcoholic beverages can be sold. College football the way it was meant to be played, the way it used to be played, the way it still is played on many campuses around the country.
The University of New Orleans can and should establish a Division I-AA non-scholarship football program on the campus of the University of New Orleans...
4.
What about Title IX?

Title IX will not be an obstacle to UNO football, financially or otherwise. In fact it may even be helpful.
In order to address the Title IX issue, an understanding of Title IX and UNO's responsibilities under same, once football is established is required. Please see Cohen v Brown University 991 F 2d 888, 893-898 (1st Cir. 1993) in which the First Circuit Court of Appeals discusses the history, scope, statutory and regulatory framework of Title IX (pg. 25).
The first point to be made is that equal opportunity to participate lies at the core of Title IX's purpose. Equality of expenditure and equality in numbers is not required (Cohen pg. 896 note 9, pg. 897). Title IX does not mandate strict numerical equality between the gender balance of a college’s athletic program and the gender balance of its student body (Cohen pg. 894). What it does mandate is that a university effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of members of both sexes (Cohen pg. 896-897).
The key point to understand is that there is a three - prong test under which UNO must meet at least one of the three prongs in order to adhere to Title IX requirements. That test is as follows:
(1)Whether intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or


(2)Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among the intercollegiate athletes, whether the institution can show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interest and abilities of the members of that sex; or
(3)Where the members of one sex, are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, and the institution cannot show a continuing practice of program expansion such as that cited above, whether it can be demonstrated that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program (pg. 897 Cohen).
It is unlikely that the athletic programs of many co-educational universities reflect the gender balance of their student bodies. Moreover, given economic constraints, it is difficult for universities to expand athletic opportunities today. As a result, more often than not, schools meet the above test by satisfying the interests and abilities of the underrepresented gender, i.e. by meeting the third prong of the test. Furthermore, even when male athletic opportunities outnumber female athletic opportunities, and a university has not met the first prong (substantial statistical proportionality) or the second prong (continuing program expansion), the mere fact that there are some female students interested in a sport does not ipso facto require the school to provide a varsity team in order to comply with the third prong. Rather, the institution can satisfy the third prong by insuring participatory opportunities at the intercollegiate level when, and to the extent that, there is sufficient interest and ability among the members of the excluded sex to sustain a viable team and a reasonable expectation of intercollegiate competition for that team (Cohen pg.. 898).
It should also be pointed out that the burden of proof is not on the university to prove that it has met at least one of the three prongs of this test. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that a university has not met at least one of the three prongs of the accommodation test. (Cohen pg. 903-904, see also Roberts v. Colorado State Board of Agriculture 998 F 2d 824 (10th Cir. 1993), pg.831). Moreover, this burden is heavier on plaintiffs who want to establish a new team than it would be on plaintiffs who are on an existing team which has been eliminated (Cohen pg. 904, Roberts pg.832).

6
The bottom line is that the purpose of Title IX is to ensure equal opportunity to participate. It does not require equality of expenditure or equality in numbers. It requires only that a university effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the members of both sexes.
"...[I]f a school has a student body in which one sex is demonstrably less interested in athletics, Title IX does not require that the school create teams for, or rain money upon otherwise disinterested students; rather, the third benchmark is satisfied if the underrepresented sex's discernable interests are fully and effectively accommodated." (pg. 898 Cohen).
Norma V. Cantu, Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights, Department of Education recently wrote in the July 30, 1999 issue of the Wall Street Journal:
"...[M]ore than two thirds of the schools reviewed by the OCR complied with Title IX by showing that they had a history and continuing practice of expanding opportunities for the underrepresented sex, or by insuring that the interests and abilities of women are fully met. In other words, if women's underrepresentation is due to lack of interest, not discrimination, a school does not have to create additional opportunities for women. A college or university can comply with Title IX even if men receive significantly more athletic opportunities than women."...

[nickgyp]

During its inaugural season, club football lost all three games. FWIW: The club team followed up in 2007 by winning the club league title. Entertaining games. I submit the following from the first win where Xavier beat Miami in Oxford on the arms and legs of QB Chris Greenwood, a TD pass to WR Craig Holliman and the defensive prowess of Dan Piening. All three were MBA students at the time, Greenwood played three years on the club team; and Piening who played at Moeller and Dartmouth was 29 years old.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrPOVE75sc

[GoMuskies]

club football

Yes, undefeated since '73.

[xubrew]

During its inaugural season, club football lost all three games. FWIW: The club team followed up in 2007 by winning the club league title. Entertaining games. I submit the following from the first win where Xavier beat Miami in Oxford on the arms and legs of QB Chris Greenwood, a TD pass to WR Craig Holliman and the defensive prowess of Dan Piening. All three were MBA students at the time, Greenwood played three years on the club team; and Piening who played at Moeller and Dartmouth was 29 years old.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrPOVE75sc

Xavier made the Elite Eight in basketball that year. Had it been varsity football instead of club I think they would have won it all!!

[MHettel]

No, Xavier doesn’t need to start football. But that still doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t.

I dont need to walk down the street naked.....and i most CERTAINLY shouldnt.

I dont see your point

[MHettel]

This is actually quite common. It means that the athletic dept. is having the costs supplemented by the institution. If a school gives money to the athletic dept, it’s reported as revenue. If the numbers are identical, it almost assuredly means that the school gave them the exact amount of money they needed to cover the expenses. The reason the school would do this is because they’re making enough money off of the tuition to make it worth it to them. This is basically a straight up D3 model. It costs the athletic dept nothing, and while it costs the school money, what they’re making off tuition exceeds the overall cost.

So what you mean is that it is not an accurate accounting of the actual revenues and expenses. Like I said it wasnt

[xubrew]

So what you mean is that it is not an accurate accounting of the actual revenues and expenses. Like I said it wasnt

I've made that same point many times over the years when discussing revenue and spending, and have made it several times in this thread. If you don't know how the reporting works, it can be very misleading.

Non scholarship football will not generate any actual external ATHLETIC revenue. What it will do is generate external revenue for the institution via the tuition dollars it brings in. That's why the school will give the money to the athletic department to cover all the expenses. In making this point (AGAIN) that's what I mean when I say that it doesn't actually cost the athletic department anything. They are given what ever it costs to pay for it. They are given money the would otherwise not be given if they didn't have football to pay for football. It costs the athletic department nothing and it makes money for the institution. That's the most accurate way it can be be stated.

[xubrew]

I dont need to walk down the street naked.....and i most CERTAINLY shouldnt.

I dont see your point

I think you do, but are just choosing not to for whatever reason. I actually do think you’re smart enough to know the difference between a preference and a need. There is a damn good reason to NOT want to see me walk down the street naked. EVERYONE would prefer not to see that. There is a clear DOWNSIDE. While there isn't an absolute need for football as X has gone along just fine without it, there is perhaps a preference for it now. And, there’s really not an actual downside to it. If anything, there's an upside in that it will bring in revenue and bring in students who otherwise never would have come.

[xubrew]

Hmmmm....

What if they decide to start a marching band?? That would cost money too!! But then again, athletics wouldn't be paying for it, and the tuition dollars it brought in would also probably outweigh the costs.

[XUGRAD80]

According to an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer today (sorry subscribers only) football is only ONE of the many suggestions that were made as a way to increase enrollment. It is something that they are “looking” at, nothing more at this time. They also would possibly be looking at adding another women’s team if they added football. The problem is that most of the enrollment increase that they have seen in the recent years has happened because of the opening of the nurses program. Evidently there hasn’t been much growth across the rest of the university programs/departments and they are exploring ways to create more growth.

Just for consideration……UC has a record number of freshman in this years class. You’d be hard pressed to not convince me that has nothing to do with the recent success of the football team. Maybe X just needs the Men’s BB team to become successful again?

[xukeith]

Put the women on the football team.

[MHettel]

I'm not interested in mumbo jumbo accounting. Paying for equipment, facilities, travel, and amenities for a team of up to 100 guys is not cheap. Direct coaching costs and administrative additions to existing athletic staff will be 500K plus.

I cannot pencil out even the BASIC economics here. How much will people pay to watch a high school all-star football game? Maybe $25? And how many people will go....maybe 3000. Thats $75K per game times what, 6 home games. Plus parking and concessions. They wont be TV or partnership money. I'm seeing maybe $750K in total revenue and 1.25M in annual operating costs. Plus the startup costs of building a suitable game field.

Look, I actually think it would be REALLY COOL if we had a football program. Thats me, thinking as a fan. But when I look at it from a business perspective, it doesn't make sense from a P&L point of view. And further, basic business principles will reveal that when you have a very specific "all in" strategy with one product (mens BB), that it makes no sense to divert resources (including TIME as a resource) to something that is not aligned to benefit that singular product.

Unless there is money donated and earmarked just for the startup costs for this, I dont see how it could work.

[xu82]

I think the concept is that it will help attract and retain males, thereby boosting tuition revenue at $50k/kid or whatever. I’d like to see where that has actually worked, because apparently I don’t know enough to have a firm opinion.

[JTG]

I think the concept is that it will help attract and retain males, thereby boosting tuition revenue at $50k/kid or whatever. I’d like to see where that has actually worked, because apparently I don’t know enough to have a firm opinion.

Marian University in Indy. 20 years ago it was practically a girls school. They have won 1 National Championship and played in another. Lots of guys, lots of success, and the school started a Med School a few years ago.
Mt St Joe actually was a girls school until they started football. Not familiar with details as I don't live in Cincy, but am told it's successful.

[Caveat]

According to an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer today (sorry subscribers only) football is only ONE of the many suggestions that were made as a way to increase enrollment. It is something that they are “looking” at, nothing more at this time. They also would possibly be looking at adding another women’s team if they added football. The problem is that most of the enrollment increase that they have seen in the recent years has happened because of the opening of the nurses program. Evidently there hasn’t been much growth across the rest of the university programs/departments and they are exploring ways to create more growth.

Just for consideration……UC has a record number of freshman in this years class. You’d be hard pressed to not convince me that has nothing to do with the recent success of the football team. Maybe X just needs the Men’s BB team to become successful again?

It’s more than just “under consideration,” they’re actively fundraising for facilities that would house a new football team.

[drudy23]

According to an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer today (sorry subscribers only) football is only ONE of the many suggestions that were made as a way to increase enrollment. It is something that they are “looking” at, nothing more at this time. They also would possibly be looking at adding another women’s team if they added football. The problem is that most of the enrollment increase that they have seen in the recent years has happened because of the opening of the nurses program. Evidently there hasn’t been much growth across the rest of the university programs/departments and they are exploring ways to create more growth.

Just for consideration……UC has a record number of freshman in this years class. You’d be hard pressed to not convince me that has nothing to do with the recent success of the football team. Maybe X just needs the Men’s BB team to become successful again?

UC competes at the highest level of football. That's why there is interest. The draw to tailgate and go to parties on Saturdays in the fall is a much bigger draw than continuing your football career for 99% of potential college students, especially when the team is good and entertaining to watch.

Do you know how long it would take a program like Xavier to get to that point in football, if ever? No one cares about lower level football.

I'd venture to guess that Mount Saint Joe football isn't creating this tremendous ROI when you balance the cost of having a program vs. the enrollment bump to bring kids in to play.

I have a better solution - make college affordable. This just seems like a D3 move from a high level D1 basketball school.

[xubrew]

I'm not interested in mumbo jumbo accounting. Paying for equipment, facilities, travel, and amenities for a team of up to 100 guys is not cheap. Direct coaching costs and administrative additions to existing athletic staff will be 500K plus.

I cannot pencil out even the BASIC economics here. How much will people pay to watch a high school all-star football game? Maybe $25? And how many people will go....maybe 3000. Thats $75K per game times what, 6 home games. Plus parking and concessions. They wont be TV or partnership money. I'm seeing maybe $750K in total revenue and 1.25M in annual operating costs. Plus the startup costs of building a suitable game field.

Look, I actually think it would be REALLY COOL if we had a football program. Thats me, thinking as a fan. But when I look at it from a business perspective, it doesn't make sense from a P&L point of view. And further, basic business principles will reveal that when you have a very specific "all in" strategy with one product (mens BB), that it makes no sense to divert resources (including TIME as a resource) to something that is not aligned to benefit that singular product.

Unless there is money donated and earmarked just for the startup costs for this, I dont see how it could work.

Your speculations aren't TOO far off, but it's still more than what most PFL schools spend. Most don't spend $500k on salaries. The PFL is closer to D3, and for that matter even closer to high school, than it is to big time FBS football. And at some of the schools I'm pretty sure their current apparel deals cover SOME of the costs. It's nothing like basketball where they get shoes, jerseys, jackets, and are paid to wear it, but they're not necessarily paying full price for it either.

As far as attendance and ticket prices, I think you're actually overshooting it. Tickets pretty much range from free to $15 at most. Crowds are 1k-3k typically. For several PFL schools, it's a virtual Olympic Sport. You can park for nothing and come in for less than ten bucks (and maybe not even that).

If they can't do it the way Davidson, Butler, Valpo, and San Diego do it where the cost to the athletic department is literally zero, then I'm not sure I'd be for it. I think xudash did a good job of laying out what the successful vision of it would be and the expectations what it would look like. Most of the people who are against it are coming up with all these problems and issues that just aren't going to happen. No basketball centric schools that play football in the PFL deal with any of those issues. In reality most of the Xavier basketball diehard fans won't ever think about it or even notice that it's there. It will enter their consciousness about as frequently as the soccer teams do. Hell, Xavier would probably still do homecoming in conjunction with a basketball game instead of a PFL football game. Some will like it, most won't notice it, and it won't take anything away from basketball. If the plan that they role out is not consistent with other PFL programs, then I'm with you in not wanting it. But if it can be done the way other schools do it, then I'm for it and actually excited about it. Given the chance, I'll be one of the 1000-3000 people that pays $10 to come see at least one game.

[xu9697]

If it can be done right, I'm all for it. Parent's Weekend could include a football game, homecoming should stick with basketball as XUBrew mentions.

[JTG]

Let's say X joins the Pioneer League and the league decides to have a championship game every year. Honestly, I don't know if they do or don't. That should generate some interest. Some on here think there will be no interest because it's non-scholarship football. My question would be then why do probably a hundred small schools have it? They just like to blow money, I doubt it. Is it ND or OSU ? No, but when X played D1 football when I was a student 68-72 it wasn't that level of football either. People still went to the games and enjoyed the experience. It's NOT going to mess up Basketball. It hasn't messed up Bball at Nova, or Butler or Dayton. All 3 Bball programs and many others are flourishing. It's not 1973, it's 50 years later, and the school is on much better financial footing.

[xubrew]

Let's say X joins the Pioneer League and the league decides to have a championship game every year. Honestly, I don't know if they do or don't. That should generate some interest. Some on here think there will be no interest because it's non-scholarship football. My question would be then why do probably a hundred small schools have it? They just like to blow money, I doubt it. Is it ND or OSU ? No, but when X played D1 football when I was a student 68-72 it wasn't that level of football either. People still went to the games and enjoyed the experience. It's NOT going to mess up Basketball. It hasn't messed up Bball at Nova, or Butler or Dayton. All 3 Bball programs and many others are flourishing. It's not 1973, it's 50 years later, and the school is on much better financial footing.

They currently do not, but they do have an auto bid to the FCS playoffs, and there is talk of implementing a championship game. There are currently 11 schools. "Multiple" schools have reached out to the PFL that are either looking to start up football, or cut scholarship football, and want to join the league. I don't know what "multiple" means other than that it is more than one. I don't know if it's two or twenty. But, if it goes to 12 or 14, there is discussion of having two divisions and setting up some sort of crossover game at the end of the year. 1st place vs 1st place, 2nd place vs 2nd place, etc. The game between the first place teams would be the defacto championship game and the winner would go to the FCS Playoffs. Or, maybe no one joins and it stays the way it is now.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Would Xavier be guaranteed a spot in the Pioneer League? If not, what other leagues cold they join? Would Dayton (as payback) not want us in the Pioneer League?

[JTG]

Would Xavier be guaranteed a spot in the Pioneer League? If not, what other leagues cold they join? Would Dayton (as payback) not want us in the Pioneer League?

I'm guessing they have a tentative go ahead from the Pioneer League before pursuing this much further. Or maybe Dayton decides to play nice in hope we someday ok them to the Big East. Really, due to the geography, aside from San Diego, the Pioneer is the perfect league to go with. As I understand all the other FCS leagues allow some if not full athletic scholarships.

[nickgyp]

Let's say X joins the Pioneer League and the league decides to have a championship game every year. Honestly, I don't know if they do or don't. That should generate some interest. Some on here think there will be no interest because it's non-scholarship football. My question would be then why do probably a hundred small schools have it? They just like to blow money, I doubt it. Is it ND or OSU ? No, but when X played D1 football when I was a student 68-72 it wasn't that level of football either. People still went to the games and enjoyed the experience. It's NOT going to mess up Basketball. It hasn't messed up Bball at Nova, or Butler or Dayton. All 3 Bball programs and many others are flourishing. It's not 1973, it's 50 years later, and the school is on much better financial footing.

True that it wasn’t ND or OSU level football but I recall the 1973 28-28 tie with Dayton at Xavier stadium. Moeller grad, Greg Schwarber, kicked a 55-yard field goal to tie the game. Impressive even in South Bend or Columbus.

[GoMuskies]

Impressive is kicking a FG to get the score to 28. That's pretty rare.

[JTG]

True that it wasn’t ND or OSU level football but I recall the 1973 28-28 tie with Dayton at Xavier stadium. Moeller grad, Greg Schwarber, kicked a 55-yard field goal to tie the game. Impressive even in South Bend or Columbus.

I was there, I still have the ticket. I was so bummed when they dropped the program a few weeks later.

[MHettel]

Marian University in Indy. 20 years ago it was practically a girls school. They have won 1 National Championship and played in another. Lots of guys, lots of success, and the school started a Med School a few years ago.
Mt St Joe actually was a girls school until they started football. Not familiar with details as I don't live in Cincy, but am told it's successful.

I've never heard of Marion University. just sayin....

[MHettel]

Does anyone happen to know the demographics of the XU student body by state?

I know that there are alot of local kids from OH, KY and Indiana but I'm wondering about other states as well. Have we seen a change in the mix of students over the years.

I'm asking because in my opinion playing football at the lowest level possible would certainly not increase awareness at all outside of the immediate Cincy area.

I've heard this is being considered to increase enrollment. If it is literally just to get 100 more males to play on the team, then I admit it would probably work to achieve that objective, but I still dont see WHY you would do it for that reason given the resource commitment necessary.

But if this is being done to drive overall enrollment, then it's DOA outside of the tri-state area....

[xubrew]

Does anyone happen to know the demographics of the XU student body by state?

I know that there are alot of local kids from OH, KY and Indiana but I'm wondering about other states as well. Have we seen a change in the mix of students over the years.

I'm asking because in my opinion playing football at the lowest level possible would certainly not increase awareness at all outside of the immediate Cincy area.

I've heard this is being considered to increase enrollment. If it is literally just to get 100 more males to play on the team, then I admit it would probably work to achieve that objective, but I still dont see WHY you would do it for that reason given the resource commitment necessary.

But if this is being done to drive overall enrollment, then it's DOA outside of the tri-state area....

Because as it has been explained, many times by multiple people, the resource commitment would be minimal. I know that doesn't seem to be getting through to you, but it won’t nearly as taxing as what you’re projecting. Even Marian, the school that is so small you've never heard of it, is able to sustain it without any problems.

Look, if Xavier does this, then you of all people are going to love it!! As I recall you hated the idea of a cost of living stipend. You hated the NIL legislation, and you hated the Supreme Court's ruling in the Alston Case, and sided with the NCAA when they fought against the anti-trust lawsuits. You thought all of this would ruin college athletics. Well, these players won't even have scholarships!! They'll be paying tuition like everyone else!! It will be all about the love of the game, which is what college sports is really all about!!

[xudash]

Because as it has been explained, many times by multiple people, the resource commitment would be minimal. I know that doesn't seem to be getting through to you, but it won’t nearly as taxing as what you’re projecting. Even Marian, the school that is so small you've never heard of it, is able to sustain it without any problems.

Look, if Xavier does this, then you of all people are going to love it!! As I recall you hated the idea of a cost of living stipend. You hated the NIL legislation, and you hated the Supreme Court's ruling in the Alston Case, and sided with the NCAA when they fought against the anti-trust lawsuits. You thought all of this would ruin college athletics. Well, these players won't even have scholarships!! They'll be paying tuition like everyone else!! It will be all about the love of the game, which is what college sports is really all about!!

Please allow me to amplify your good post.

One easy way to look at this is that this idea would have never made it this far with Xavier's leadership if it didn't have merit and hold potential. We have some very sharp people running Victory Parkway, and they are backed up by a very strong BoT. You can argue that no one bats a thousand and things could go wrong. Frankly, I'll respond with bullshit on that, because this has been vetted and because the execution of it is in very good hands.

One other thing for those who are a little mangled up with the accounting issues: 501(c)(3) - X is a non-profit (chuckle, chuckle). If you end up seeing an accounting treatment that reflects revenues equalling expenses for the football program specifically, I wouldn't become overly concerned about it.

[MHettel]

Because as it has been explained, many times by multiple people, the resource commitment would be minimal. I know that doesn't seem to be getting through to you, but it won’t nearly as taxing as what you’re projecting. Even Marian, the school that is so small you've never heard of it, is able to sustain it without any problems.

Look, if Xavier does this, then you of all people are going to love it!! As I recall you hated the idea of a cost of living stipend. You hated the NIL legislation, and you hated the Supreme Court's ruling in the Alston Case, and sided with the NCAA when they fought against the anti-trust lawsuits. You thought all of this would ruin college athletics. Well, these players won't even have scholarships!! They'll be paying tuition like everyone else!! It will be all about the love of the game, which is what college sports is really all about!!

Just because "its been explained many times by multiple people" doesnt mean I have to accept that. Nobody has actually EXPLAINED it at all. There are some people that dont think it will consume many resources or dont think it will be expensive. But they havent explained WHY. Even if 100 people dont "think" it will be that expensive, it doesnt change my mind one bit until I see some evidence. this should be approached as a business decision for the university. Showing mumbo jumbo accounting results that shows that a team spent "DOWN TO THE PENNY" the exact amount of money it brought in is actually just evidence that they DONT want you to see the actual P&L of the program.

The startup costs will be in the millions. I believe that once you get past that, the program MIGHT be able to operate at a small deficit yearly ( a few hundred thousand). If the team draws in incremental students in the form of players, then the incremental tuition (after associated costs) can be attributed to the program as well. I see an extremely limited student recruiting benefit outside of the very immediate local area.

If the startup costs were being covered by a donor that would only provide money if it's used for that purpose, then it does impact my concerns consdierably.

And, for the record.....1) I dont think I've ever commented on the idea of a athletic stipend. Thats actually an idea I WOULD endorse, as long as it's equally applied (all sports at ALL schools) and genuinely meant to cover cost of living an incidental stuff. I'm talking like 10K per year. 2) Yes, I hate the NIL rules. 3) I never mentioned or have commented on the Supreme Court case. I'm giving my opinion on these issues, and it has absolutely nothing to do with that case. My opinion would not change at all based on the outcome of that case or if it had not existed at all. I dont let court decisions define my opinions. 4) You forgot the immediate transfer rules. I hate that rule. 5) and, I guess we will have to keep our eye on the overall college sports landscape to see what the impact is. What I DO know is that Jay Wright and Roy Williams both retired and specifically cited some of these changes...

[xudash]

A separate post on speculating about a stadium and facilities. While I have no idea how practice time, etc. would be managed - I'm sure they can figure that out - I do have a "romantic" notion of having Corcoran Field reborn to some degree, albeit scaled appropriately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcoran_Stadium).

Parking would be an issue, but let a lot of attendees stroll across campus on their way to a game. A bona fide tailgate area could be established between the north end of the stadium and the Champions Center. It's a beautiful setting down there, looking back up at the traditional Academic Row.

More to the point and where the real benefits kick in: you can kill multiple birds with one capital project stone: imagine a nice stadium facility that can accommodate football, both soccer programs and lacrosse. Perhaps football isn't just about male recruitment and more activities in the fall. Maybe it can help lift improved recruiting for other key sports via a trifecta facilities play. Again, speculation on my part, but hopefully not a bad or crazy thought.

[nickgyp]

A separate post on speculating about a stadium and facilities. While I have no idea how practice time, etc. would be managed - I'm sure they can figure that out - I do have a "romantic" notion of having Corcoran Field reborn to some degree, albeit scaled appropriately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcoran_Stadium).

Parking would be an issue, but let a lot of attendees stroll across campus on their way to a game. A bona fide tailgate area could be established between the north end of the stadium and the Champions Center. It's a beautiful setting down there, looking back up at the traditional Academic Row.

More to the point and where the real benefits kick in: you can kill multiple birds with one capital project stone: imagine a nice stadium facility that can accommodate football, both soccer programs and lacrosse. Perhaps football isn't just about male recruitment and more activities in the fall. Maybe it can help lift improved recruiting for other key sports via a trifecta facilities play. Again, speculation on my part, but hopefully not a bad or crazy thought.

Dash:

Driving past Victory Parkway and Dana, I always recall how that area was easily the prettiest part of Xavier's campus. The football stadium with the classic rise of the brick on the east side stands with the portals adorned by wrought iron bars. The schedule board outside the south side of the field. Thinking if Xavier ever brought back football, how cool it would be to have the same stadium configuration again even if it were on a smaller scale than the original 15, 000 seat original. The picturesque view of the academic buildings to the east. Tailgating as you suggest. Parking could be worked out with the campus strolls. I like the idea.
envision

[XUGRAD80]

IMO the most likely scenario would be for them to play in a local HS stadium, not an on-campus facility.

[xudash]

IMO the most likely scenario would be for them to play in a local HS stadium, not an on-campus facility.

I don’t think that is the most likely scenario.

[UCGRAD4X]

IMO the most likely scenario would be for them to play in a local HS stadium, not an on-campus facility.

I don't know how many the under-construction Staubach stadium will hold, but it's just a stone's throw up Woodburn.

[XUGRAD80]

I don’t think that is the most likely scenario.

Well, it’s the model that I’ve seen all of the other local colleges start out with. Not saying that it will be the permanent solution, but I do think that it will be what it starts out with. The costs involved in building even a small on campus facility are huge. If they aren’t really doing this for any other reason than to drive male enrollment, then there really is no need for an on campus facility right away. That can wait until there is enough of a fan base to make it needed. Seems silly to spend millions on a facility that won’t be needed more than a handful of times a year.

There are at least 4 decent sized and fairly new or updated HS stadiums close to the Xavier campus that could be used. One of them, Norwood HS’s Shea Stadium, hosted the Moeller-ST. X high school playoff game last evening with about 7-8,000 people in attendance. I’m sure it could host a Xavier U game with no problem.

[Seven Eighths]

Dash:

Driving past Victory Parkway and Dana, I always recall how that area was easily the prettiest part of Xavier's campus. The football stadium with the classic rise of the brick on the east side stands with the portals adorned by wrought iron bars. The schedule board outside the south side of the field. Thinking if Xavier ever brought back football, how cool it would be to have the same stadium configuration again even if it were on a smaller scale than the original 15, 000 seat original. The picturesque view of the academic buildings to the east. Tailgating as you suggest. Parking could be worked out with the campus strolls. I like the idea.
envision

I’d love for that side of campus to get a major facelift. I’d love for Victory Parkway to be closed off to through traffic from Dana to Ledgewood to connect the campus, tear down the O’Connor, the armory and Schmit Field house. Use the “beach area” as well and build a 10K football field and more upper classman housing right there.

Alternatively, I’ve heard that a football stadium, again around 10K in size could be built were Cohen is, allowing parking at Cintas and Norwood Plaza. This area could also allow for housing to be built around the stadium overlooking the field. Butler has a similar set up.

Rent the new stadium to Moeller who is currently playing home games at Shea in Norwood.

[nickgyp]

PFL action yesterday, in San Diego, Butler kicker kicks 56 yard last second field goal for the win. Not too shabby for non-scholarship football.


https://twitter.com/NCAA_FCS/status/1589271248214757376?s=20&t=8YZKxi3MmvOlHgSm314P_Q

[drudy23]

PFL action yesterday, in San Diego, Butler kicker kicks 56 yard last second field goal for the win. Not too shabby for non-scholarship football.


https://twitter.com/NCAA_FCS/status/1589271248214757376?s=20&t=8YZKxi3MmvOlHgSm314P_Q

And 6 people were there to see it.

[Double Down]

Have we not learned from the past? Too many athletic programs around the country struggle to keep athletic departments afloat with the high expenses of football. Undefeated since 1973! Let’s keep it that way.

[JTG]

Have we not learned from the past? Too many athletic programs around the country struggle to keep athletic departments afloat with the high expenses of football. Undefeated since 1973! Let’s keep it that way.

It's comparing apples and oranges. That was D1, this isn't. BTW that shirt is stupid.

[94GRAD]

It's comparing apples and oranges. That was D1, this isn't. BTW that shirt is stupid.

I bet you're the life of the party.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It's comparing apples and oranges. That was D1, this isn't. BTW that shirt is stupid.

This actually is D1, just a really awful version of it.

[Masterofreality]

True that it wasn’t ND or OSU level football but I recall the 1973 28-28 tie with Dayton at Xavier stadium. Moeller grad, Greg Schwarber, kicked a 55-yard field goal to tie the game. Impressive even in South Bend or Columbus.

Is Greg related to Kyle Schwarber??
They both hit bombs!!

[nickgyp]

Is Greg related to Kyle Schwarber??
They both hit bombs!!
I have no idea if they are related but the baseball player is from Middletown. The Butler kicker who kicked the 56 yarder this past weekend was noteworthy as was the 55 yard field goal kicked by a Centerville kicker breaking Mike Nugent’s school record.

None of this is to suggest that PFL football is on the level of Ohio State, Michigan or the like. Xavier basketball isn’t on the level of the N.B.A. But that doesn’t keep people from going to the games. Whether football is played before five or five thousands fans is only significant when considering revenues and costs. If Xavier can’t make the numbers work financially then it shouldn’t be done as cost prohibitive. (No one is calling for the discontinuation of a Xavier sport where fans are sparse such as tennis or swimming but again, the numbers need to work for football to be viable).

[nuts4xu]

The Butler kicker who kicked the 56 yarder this past weekend was noteworthy as was the 55 yard field goal kicked by a Centerville kicker breaking Mike Nugent’s school record.



Are you saying Mike Nugent went to Butler? I thought he went to Ohio State??

[UCGRAD4X]

It's comparing apples and oranges. That was D1, this isn't. BTW that shirt is stupid.

I'll wear that way before wearing the NIT shirt my wife bought me (and still haven't worn...don't tell my wife).

[drudy23]

I have no idea if they are related but the baseball player is from Middletown. The Butler kicker who kicked the 56 yarder this past weekend was noteworthy as was the 55 yard field goal kicked by a Centerville kicker breaking Mike Nugent’s school record.

None of this is to suggest that PFL football is on the level of Ohio State, Michigan or the like. Xavier basketball isn’t on the level of the N.B.A. But that doesn’t keep people from going to the games. Whether football is played before five or five thousands fans is only significant when considering revenues and costs. If Xavier can’t make the numbers work financially then it shouldn’t be done as cost prohibitive. (No one is calling for the discontinuation of a Xavier sport where fans are sparse such as tennis or swimming but again, the numbers need to work for football to be viable).

There are a ton of sports that exist at the college level where the financials deem it cost prohibitive. But there's other sports to pay for it. Basically, Xavier basketball would likely be somewhat supplementing football unless they get a fatcat or increased enrollment to pay for it.

It just seems like alot of work for little payoff. Football at X is never going to bring in enough to 1) pay for itself or 2) help supplement other sports. Might it bring in a bump in tuition? Maybe - but that doesn't seem all that significant in the grand scheme of things.

Again, seems like a D3 idea at a high level D1 basketball school.

[X-band '01]

Are you saying Mike Nugent went to Butler? I thought he went to Ohio State??

Pretty sure he meant Centerville.

[XUGRAD80]

It would take a financial genius to figure out what kind of “profit” Xavier makes on each student, especially as they are a not-for-profit school, right? There are just so many variables and things that take pieces of that tuition money….facility maintenance, professors salaries, utilities, insurance, capital improvement costs, etc.etc.etc. BUT….if it could be shown that bringing in 100 new students would in itself pay for the cost of fielding a football team, I’d be very surprised. It’s going to take some additional funding in the form of others being willing to support and underwrite the expenses. IF they could get that money coming in, then why not? Heck, if I win the lotto millions I’ll pay for it myself! In fact, I’ll pay the whole 25 million athletics budget! But since I’m not planning on buying any tickets, I guess that others are going to have to get their checkbooks out and cover it themselves. I can’t see where they would draw enough additional students to pay for it just with tuition money.

[nickgyp]

Pretty sure he meant Centerville.

Correct. Nugent attended Centerville High School south of Dayton before attending Ohio State. Centerville's nickname is the Elks, but I am not aware that may elk have ever been sighted in that region of Ohio.

[XUBison]

How about we conjure up a law school instead?

[JTG]

How about we conjure up a law school instead?

The world needs fewer law schools, and fewer lawyers.

[GoMuskies]

The world needs fewer law schools, and fewer lawyers.

Damn right. I don't need the competition.

[paulxu]

Hah!

Also, that ship sailed when we failed to buy Chase and NKU took it.

[nickgyp]

How about we conjure up a law school instead?

Shakespeare was right when he wrote: “First thing, we kill all the lawyers” I write this as a lawyer but little known fact: His original manuscript contained an asterisk for prosecutors.

Seriously, there is always room for good lawyers.

But then there is this:

Why do undertakers bury lawyers 26 feet underground after they die? Because down deep, they really are good people.

[waggy]

You know I’m stealing that

[nickgyp]

You know I’m stealing that

And this:

What do you call a ship full of lawyers sunk in the bottom of an ocean? A good start.

[Double Down]

I’ve got an extra shirt if you’d like it JT!

[boozehound]

What does this even mean?

Anything that you don't like is 'woke' if you are an older rural conservative.

[XUBison]

Anything that you don't like is 'woke' if you are an older rural conservative.

Diving deep into the bag of clever quips, I see. What a tiresome trope.

[Masterofreality]

Am I REALLY hearing this correctly?????
If so, Ima No.

After seeing the BOT Chair last night, Ima YES!!
It’s happening folks!
Pioneer League is set!

[paulxu]

Jimmy Carter at Corcoran.

[nickgyp]

After seeing the BOT Chair last night, Ima YES!!
It’s happening folks!
Pioneer League is set!

I talked to Andy Mac before his presentation at Duff’s before last night’s basketball game. He would neither confirm nor deny. But neither he nor Adam Baum discussed it as it was all bb during the discussion.

[JTG]

I talked to Andy Mac before his presentation at Duff’s before last night’s basketball game. He would neither confirm nor deny. But neither he nor Adam Baum discussed it as it was all bb during the discussion.

People were pretty tight lipped this weekend about the plans for football, not so much about the med school. Any fears bball fans have about football are unwarranted. It's like if you have a kid and you get another one. You don't like the first one less, you enjoy them equally.

[xubrew]

After seeing the BOT Chair last night, Ima YES!!
It’s happening folks!
Pioneer League is set!

This is good enough for me!!!

Let me say this about the PFL. I actually appreciate it. I'm not getting multiple TVs set up to watch each game, but I like that this type of model for football exists, and it is not just sustainable but beneficial to the schools who field programs.

As for all of this speculation of how it will inevitably end up being a money pit and taking away from other sports, understand that every PFL budget is about $1 million a year. That's the TOTAL BUDGET!!! If/when Xavier makes their official presentation to the PFL, if their financial plan involves spending substantially more than that, they're not going to be voted into the league. The member schools have an understanding of what the PFL is and what it should cost. If Xavier goes over that, they're not going to even want them.

So...if you're worried about this being a money pit, rest easy!! It won't be. And if it is, they'll end up getting thrown out of the league for spending too much and probably end up having to cut the sport anyway.

[MHettel]

This is good enough for me!!!

Let me say this about the PFL. I actually appreciate it. I'm not getting multiple TVs set up to watch each game, but I like that this type of model for football exists, and it is not just sustainable but beneficial to the schools who field programs.

As for all of this speculation of how it will inevitably end up being a money pit and taking away from other sports, understand that every PFL budget is about $1 million a year. That's the TOTAL BUDGET!!! If/when Xavier makes their official presentation to the PFL, if their financial plan involves spending substantially more than that, they're not going to be voted into the league. The member schools have an understanding of what the PFL is and what it should cost. If Xavier goes over that, they're not going to even want them.

So...if you're worried about this being a money pit, rest easy!! It won't be. And if it is, they'll end up getting thrown out of the league for spending too much and probably end up having to cut the sport anyway.

This is nonsense

[Masterofreality]

This is nonsense

Uh, it’s not

[JTG]

This is nonsense

What's your problem? Do you just hate the idea of X and football? Or are you questioning the budget amounts?

[xubrew]

What's your problem? Do you just hate the idea of X and football? Or are you questioning the budget amounts?

I sometimes wonder if he's just trying to do a parody to amuse himself. Sometimes he's so far off, but yet so insistent, that you just can't help but question if he's actually being serious. And I kind of hope that it is. If it is, then cheers to him, because it would actually be kind of funny. But if it isn't, then...WOW!

[nickgyp]

Since Xavier has been down this road before in 1973 where the expense of football was weighed, it seems highly unlikely that given the business background of many of those on the Board of Trustees that all the financial angles were not considered. As it was in 1973, there were people who just didn’t like football anyway and they were more than happy to see it discontinued. Hopefully, if Xavier does pull the trigger and sponsor a non- scholarship team then there will be enough support for the program as is seemingly projected.

One former Alabama player has questioned the heart of current Crimson Tide players who are benefiting from NIL money. At the non-scholarship level there would not be such a worry which is a refreshing thought.

[X-band '01]

This is good enough for me!!!

Let me say this about the PFL. I actually appreciate it. I'm not getting multiple TVs set up to watch each game, but I like that this type of model for football exists, and it is not just sustainable but beneficial to the schools who field programs.

As for all of this speculation of how it will inevitably end up being a money pit and taking away from other sports, understand that every PFL budget is about $1 million a year. That's the TOTAL BUDGET!!! If/when Xavier makes their official presentation to the PFL, if their financial plan involves spending substantially more than that, they're not going to be voted into the league. The member schools have an understanding of what the PFL is and what it should cost. If Xavier goes over that, they're not going to even want them.

So...if you're worried about this being a money pit, rest easy!! It won't be. And if it is, they'll end up getting thrown out of the league for spending too much and probably end up having to cut the sport anyway.

Wasn't St. Thomas thrown out of their D3 league in part because of enrollment and financial advantages they had over their peer schools in that league?

It's one thing for the Tommies to be top dog in the Pioneer League, but they're not at a point where they're going to be dominating the Summit League in basketball and other sports anytime soon, though.

[xubrew]

Wasn't St. Thomas thrown out of their D3 league in part because of enrollment and financial advantages they had over their peer schools in that league?

It's one thing for the Tommies to be top dog in the Pioneer League, but they're not at a point where they're going to be dominating the Summit League in basketball and other sports anytime soon, though.

Essentially. Saint Thomas actually got into the top 25, but isn’t eligible for the playoffs yet.

[MHettel]

It’s nonsense that they would get kicked out of the Pioneer league because they are spending too much. And if they do “spend too much” then the only option would be to cut the sport? Moving up to a higher league would not be an option?

And, you are clear that if xu was gonna “spend too much” they wouldn’t get the invite. That might be the most asinine thing I’ve heard of. Maybe the only more asinine thing would be if the did get the invite and then once in started spending more. What then?

[xubrew]

It’s nonsense that they would get kicked out of the Pioneer league because they are spending too much. And if they do “spend too much” then the only option would be to cut the sport? Moving up to a higher league would not be an option?

And, you are clear that if xu was gonna “spend too much” they wouldn’t get the invite. That might be the most asinine thing I’ve heard of. Maybe the only more asinine thing would be if the did get the invite and then once in started spending more. What then?

Well, to join any league other than the PFL they'd have to add scholarships and be voted in. The only other football only league is the MVFC, and MAYBE they'd take a recent start up as a member, but to just assume that is a big assumption. All the other conferences would probably take Xavier, but not as a football only member. I mean, MAYBE they would, but it would probably come with some sort of scheduling agreement in men's basketball where we agreed to give the conference so many home-and-homes a year. But, yes, to your point, I suppose X could do that. They could also opt to leave the Big East and become a full member of a conference that has football. I just don't think that's in their plans, though.

The PFL is pretty much exactly what the member institutions want it to be. It's schools that want football for enrollment purposes, but don't want to spend a lot of money on it. There are no substantial media deals, there's no revenue sharing, and everyone is perfectly okay with that. There is no desire to change anything, and they feel absolutely no need to add anyone. They're certainly willing to add schools (and added one just last year), but they're not looking to add someone who would look to outspend them. They just won't. If a school is looking to dump a lot of money into football, the PFL simply isn't for them, and they are not for it. Schools like Austin Peay and Mercer have left the PFL because they wanted to take football more seriously and were basically told they couldn't offer scholarships and up their spending and stay in the league.

My hunch is that if X is interested in the PFL, they're not looking to spend all that much more than a million a year, they won't spend much more than a million a year, all of their costs will be covered by the university (so it'll be one of these deals where you see the revenue was identical to the expenses), and that the university will feel this is worth it because it is more than offset from the tuition dollars. So, them outspending the rest of the PFL isn't an issue anyway.

And again I wonder...are you just trying to parody things?

[xu9697]

I really hope that this will NOT affect Corcoran Field, or, if repurposed for football, a soccer/lacrosse field will be built somewhere else on campus. I am 100% for the PFL model and want XU football, but I don't feel it should take away what is happening with XU soccer. Both men & women soccer teams are growing their programs and having increased success, and with improvements to the infrastructure for those programs, part of that "improvement" should not be a "soccer field with football lines". I can deal with the lacrosse lines. :-)

I understand that Men's Basketball is the $ line sport and should be, however as a proud alum interested in many sports and the health of the entire athletic program, I'd like to see X do all they can to continue to look to be a relevant winning program in as many sports as possible.

[nickgyp]

I really hope that this will NOT affect Corcoran Field, or, if repurposed for football, a soccer/lacrosse field will be built somewhere else on campus. I am 100% for the PFL model and want XU football, but I don't feel it should take away what is happening with XU soccer. Both men & women soccer teams are growing their programs and having increased success, and with improvements to the infrastructure for those programs, part of that "improvement" should not be a "soccer field with football lines". I can deal with the lacrosse lines. :-)

I understand that Men's Basketball is the $ line sport and should be, however as a proud alum interested in many sports and the health of the entire athletic program, I'd like to see X do all they can to continue to look to be a relevant winning program in as many sports as possible.
Not sure where they would build a stadium but seems to me, Corcoran Field would work well. Perhaps a multi-use stadium; and, if necessary, move soccer off campus for time to build it. There seems to be land On the west side of Victory Parkway just north of the baseball stadium. Could be a nice athletic corridor. Just thinking aloud as I am not keen on the idea of a stadium near Montgomery Rd. particularly if a medical school was to be built there.

[XUGRAD80]

I’d be really shocked if they built a new stadium right off the bat, although I could see a multipurpose stadium being built sometime down the line if there appeared to be a demand for it. Putting it where the old stadium is might be possible. It will be interesting to see what that land looks like after Schmidt is torn down (which brings a tear to my eye even just thinking about it).

[JTG]

I’d be really shocked if they built a new stadium right off the bat, although I could see a multipurpose stadium being built sometime down the line if there appeared to be a demand for it. Putting it where the old stadium is might be possible. It will be interesting to see what that land looks like after Schmidt is torn down (which brings a tear to my eye event thinking about it).

Schmidt like the pressbox side of Corcoran was built into the side of a hill, so it will look like a cliff when it's demolished. Plus I'm not sure what will hold up the side of the Armory, which has been declared a historic building. I would guess a multi purpose stadium, with minimal initial seating would be the plan.There are some very smart folks running X these days, so I trust they will have a good plan

[noteggs]

Does X own the parking lot off Montgomery where the old Kroger used to be? If not, I thought read somewhere the city of Norwood doesn’t want to sell X more land. Not sure why tho because it will help in property value I would think.

[nickgyp]

Schmidt like the pressbox side of Corcoran was built into the side of a hill, so it will look like a cliff when it's demolished. Plus I'm not sure what will hold up the side of the Armory, which has been declared a historic building. I would guess a multi purpose stadium, with minimal initial seating would be the plan.There are some very smart folks running X these days, so I trust they will have a good plan

I have fond memories of seeing Steve Thomas, Bob Quick and Connie Warren play games at Schmidt Fieldhouse. Sad that it is slated for demolition. Not sure what, if anything , could be built there due to its configuration. As noted, it would be cliff-like; a gaping hole. Perhaps, a building with locker facilities for teams using adjacent facilities such as a new stadium, the baseball field and any other field that could be added along Victory Parkway (which by its very name conjures up an imagery of sports). After last night’s basketball game, driving along that stretch of roadway, it just seems like a natural fit.

[Muskie]

Does X own the parking lot off Montgomery where the old Kroger used to be? If not, I thought read somewhere the city of Norwood doesn’t want to sell X more land. Not sure why tho because it will help in property value I would think.

I believe X does own that property now.

[X-man]

I believe X does own that property now.

It does.

[Masterofreality]

The Head Coach of VD football retired after 14 years and 47 years at the school.
The Pioneer Football League is up for grabs Baby!!
Cryers blow.

[nickgyp]

The Head Coach of VD football retired after 14 years and 47 years at the school.
The Pioneer Football League is up for grabs Baby!!
Cryers blow.

MOR:

I don' recall the Xavier-Dayton football rivalry ever having the animosity that the basketball games have experienced. Sat through too many games at UD arena where the Flyer fans exhibited a downright disdain for the Muskies. It was plain uncomfortable attending those games. Had Xavier dropped football to D-3 as the Flyers did back in the seventies maybe the football rivalry would have gone the same route but I was always envious that UD had a program while Xavier did not. UD certainly got a number of local players that perhaps would have gone to Xavier; and as a D-3 team, Dayton did very well under Rick Carter. The current coach apparently stayed after a stellar career as a Flyer linebacker. Makes me recall Irv Etler coaching at Xavier after quarterbacking the Musketeers. In any event, if Xavier should go with a football program then it would be nice to see some of the quality local Cincinnati talent that wants to continue playing football consider playing on Victory Parkway. Dayton still gets its fair share; and a Xavier program that takes recruits away just might add fuel to the fire.