Tu Holloway vs Trevon Bluiett

[Xavier]

Help solve this debate. Was with some buddies last night and started arguing over these two guys.

If you were starting a team, which player would you start with and build around. While I think Tre was more successful and accomplished (his number deserves to be retired, IMO) I thought Building around Tu gives you the better team. His ability to create his own shot and overall mentality pushed me towards him. I was in the minority. What do you think?

[drudy23]

I'll take both.

[Xville]

Tu all day everyday. Creates his own shot, creates for others, and is probably the most clutch Xavier player ever. Bluiett is damn good at what he does, but he’s a complete liability on defense, and is extremely limited athletically (by d 1 standards).

[94GRAD]

If I can only pick one, it would be Tu

[D-West & PO-Z]

Help solve this debate. Was with some buddies last night and started arguing over these two guys.

If you were starting a team, which player would you start with and build around. While I think Tre was more successful and accomplished (his number deserves to be retired, IMO) I thought Building around Tu gives you the better team. His ability to create his own shot and overall mentality pushed me towards him. I was in the minority. What do you think?

Wow, this is tough, like asking which kid you would want to keep.

Both had hearts of champions. Both were clutch and came up huge in big spots.

Given the way the game is played today with so much emphasis on 3 point shooting, I'd lean slightly toward Tre. He could score so many ways (Tu could as well but Tre shot almost 5% better from 3).

I think we also saw with how good Tre was, he made an average PG look well above average. It was so much easier when he was around for Q to get in the lane and distribute than after Tre left.

Too hard for me to pass up on the 2200 point scorer. Although these 2 would be in my top 3-4 of choices to start a team around.

Tre also played in the tougher league and was 3 time all BE player in the tougher league. That doesnt give it to him alone, we all know Tu would have been awesome in the BE, just something that tips it a little more in his favor for me.

Again, almost an impossible choice.

[xukeith]

Tu hands down. Bluiett was good and deadly from 3 but Tu had other intangibles thet really sealed his fate as a top all-time X guard.
Tu passed, scored, and made giany shots and carried teh team on his back. He was a gangsta not a thug.

[noteggs]

I know it’s not part of the exercise, but I’m like Drudy - both. Just glad we had an opportunity to experience their greatness in different ways. Ironically, both were projected to go other schools.

[MHettel]

David West

[D-West & PO-Z]

David West

The only correct choice if opened up to all past Xavier players.

[paulxu]

A team has 5 guys playing at once.
Tre isn't going to play point.
So...take 'em both.

[XUBison]

Tu hands down. Bluiett was good and deadly from 3 but Tu had other intangibles thet really sealed his fate as a top all-time X guard.
Tu passed, scored, and made giany shots and carried teh team on his back. He was a gangsta not a thug.

Yep to this. I hate the way things played out his senior year— he was frontrunner for NPOY early that season.

The kicker for me was when he demanded to guard lance Stephenson, despite giving up 7 inches— because they were both NY. Talk about stones. DWest, then Tu, then everyone else.

[XUBison]

The only correct choice if opened up to all past Xavier players.

Well, of course. But DWest is the obvious outlier, which I assume is why he was left out of the conversation. I actually think Tu is an outlier as well. What if the brawl and fallout had never happened? Tu might have been NPOY, with a top-4 seed, a deep run in the tourney, and a first round draft pick. If that season transpired the way it should’ve, this conversation Mike instead be DWest vs Tu. I really believe that.

[Xavier]

Over the course of the season I’d take a David West. In a one game scenario (or for an ncaa tournament run) I think Crawford might be my choice. Larkin is before my time but imagine he’d be in that one game/tournament run convo. I love west for the season, maybe I’m overstating the importance of guard play in one game (or tournament) scenario, but feel Crawford could win a game single-handedly more than any other X player.

[sirthought]

Between those two guys, I'd take Holloway.

As great as they were, there are others I think I'd pick before these two.

[drudy23]

To add to the debate - does Tu ever reach rafter status?

He's arguably most beloved X player ever (with DWest) because of his stones. Definitely HOF material.

[D-West & PO-Z]

To add to the debate - does Tu ever reach rafter status?

He's arguably most beloved X player ever (with DWest) because of his stones. Definitely HOF material.

I think there are only 3 guys with an argument currently for rafter status (at least of the modern era of X basketball).

Tre, Sato, and Tu.

I think Tre eventually ends up in the rafters. I don't think the other 2 get there. I would also say that is probably the right call if it happens that way.

[MHettel]

In a one game scenario (or for an ncaa tournament run) I think Crawford might be my choice... but feel Crawford could win a game single-handedly more than any other X player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0KjNXdDQs

Watch this video. Fast Forward to the 7:30 mark. Watch the next 20 seconds.

Focus on Crawford, and let me know what you think about his effort.

[MHettel]

To add to the debate - does Tu ever reach rafter status?

He's arguably most beloved X player ever (with DWest) because of his stones. Definitely HOF material.

For sure. But I will say that it was obvious to me that Tu let his success get to his head as a Senior. We were in some neutral site tournament and they had a feature about him, and he had some dumb ritual of leaving his shoes at midcourt after the game as some sort of...well, who knows why.

The whole feature is very ego-centric. Then we proceed to go out and get drilled by Long Beach State and Hawaii.

Maybe a little more focus about what was happening ON the court, and a little less with the antics OFF the court.

[STL_XUfan]

I think there are only 3 guys with an argument currently for rafter status (at least of the modern era of X basketball).

Tre, Sato, and Tu.

I think Tre eventually ends up in the rafters. I don't think the other 2 get there. I would also say that is probably the right call if it happens that way.

Mario's tweet earlier this week strongly hinted at both numbers going up in the rafters. https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1548060966297821184?
s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA (https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1548060966297821184?s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA)

He has also referred to an "unofficial retired number" list in the past: https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1034474373065977856?s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA

[Xville]

For sure. But I will say that it was obvious to me that Tu let his success get to his head as a Senior. We were in some neutral site tournament and they had a feature about him, and he had some dumb ritual of leaving his shoes at midcourt after the game as some sort of...well, who knows why.

The whole feature is very ego-centric. Then we proceed to go out and get drilled by Long Beach State and Hawaii.

Maybe a little more focus about what was happening ON the court, and a little less with the antics OFF the court.

Wtf are you talking about? Reasons we lost those games are because of the suspensions from the brawl, and Tu’s balls being ripped away from him from a ridiculous reaction by the administration because of a press conference that he never should have been in.

[Blue Blooded-05]

I have often cited my biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Sean Miller doesn't leave after the 2009 season and convinced D Brown to come back. That team was legit National Championship good against a weak field.

My second biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Mack didn't send Tu and Lyons out for that press conference after the Crosstown brawl. The blowback from that decision put a shock collar around that team's neck for the remainder of that season. That team never quite regained its swagger. Would have been interesting to see what that team would have done in the tourney as a 1-3 seed rather than the 10 seed they became.

On the plus side, I actually credit the media coverage of that event as the biggest reason why we rarely get called Egg-zavier anymore.

[muskiefan82]

I have often cited my biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Sean Miller doesn't leave after the 2009 season and convinced D Brown to come back. That team was legit National Championship good against a weak field.

My second biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Mack didn't send Tu and Lyons out for that press conference after the Crosstown brawl. The blowback from that decision put a shock collar around that team's neck for the remainder of that season. That team never quite regained its swagger. Would have been interesting to see what that team would have done in the tourney as a 1-3 seed rather than the 10 seed they became.

On the plus side, I actually credit the media coverage of that event as the biggest reason why we rarely get called Egg-zavier anymore.

2 more. What if X fouls the 3 point shooter vs. Ohio State and what if Thad pulls Myles before the free throw phantom foul vs. Duke?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Mario's tweet earlier this week strongly hinted at both numbers going up in the rafters. https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1548060966297821184?
s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA (https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1548060966297821184?s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA)

He has also referred to an "unofficial retired number" list in the past: https://twitter.com/MarioMercurio/status/1034474373065977856?s=20&t=AV-66DJCC20itFtu06-ilA

That would be great. I think all 3 of the guys I listed would be deserving. If I only had to guess 1 that would happen I would guess Tre, but if Tu and Sato got it that would be awesome. I think some have suggested a Sato/Thomas combo for putting 10 in the rafters.

If I was picking and I only got to pick 1, I would give the edge to Tre.

I think one thing that hurts Sato some is that he was never the alpha on anyone of his teams. That is just by poor circumstance though being he played with West for 3 years and then an insanely hot Chalmers for the 2nd half of his senior year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

2 more. What if X fouls the 3 point shooter vs. Ohio State and what if Thad pulls Myles before the free throw phantom foul vs. Duke?

Don't do this to me!

[D-West & PO-Z]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0KjNXdDQs

Watch this video. Fast Forward to the 7:30 mark. Watch the next 20 seconds.

Focus on Crawford, and let me know what you think about his effort.

He got pushed to the ground and caught watching the play. Not his best moment, but to single out one poor moment in a guy's career to dismiss the previous poster's point? I promise you I can find a clip of David West taking a play off.

[XUBison]

Wtf are you talking about? Reasons we lost those games are because of the suspensions from the brawl, and Tu’s balls being ripped away from him from a ridiculous reaction by the administration because of a press conference that he never should have been in.

Yes sir. He was made the scape goat for the whole damn thing. It was a travesty how that season played out for him. I know we made a sweet 16 that year, but that was a consolation prize that season.

[MHettel]

He got pushed to the ground and caught watching the play. Not his best moment, but to single out one poor moment in a guy's career to dismiss the previous poster's point? I promise you I can find a clip of David West taking a play off.

I just find that play to be SOOOOO telling.

Gordon Hayward makes the hustle play, scores the winning bucket and goes on to have a pretty lengthy and prosperous NBA Career....

Crawford on the other hands, just watched the play and was totally out of position to defend the layup by Hayward. Crawford completely flamed out of the NBA, playing in 281 games for 5 teams over parts of 6 seasons. Crawford had SO much talent and could have easily become a Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford "scorer off the bench" type of guy.....

I CANNOT disconnect his boneheaded lack of hustle with his NBA flameout.

[X-band '01]

Mark Lyons didn't exactly do Xavier a favor either by allowing himself to get tied up that led to Butler's winning shot. He literally just tried to play keep away instead of advancing towards the basket. Listen to Bob Knight's commentary on the play in question.

But now I'm going to shut off that portion of Memory Lane.

[XUBison]

He got pushed to the ground and caught watching the play. Not his best moment, but to single out one poor moment in a guy's career to dismiss the previous poster's point? I promise you I can find a clip of David West taking a play off.

Oh, come on. I love JCraw— nobody worked harder to get off his own shot. I think we all know, if we were to search for videos of DWest and Crawford taking off plays, we are going to find a lot more videos of Crawford.

[noteggs]

Sorta agree on the Lyons call. If you look at the angle, the hands (by Hayward) were wrapped around which the ref could completely see. Also, Beasley? (#21) was on the floor with a loose ball and got up. Thought that was traveling. Maybe they thought he didn’t have control, but this is my partisan view.

[XUBison]

[QUOTE=Blue Blooded-05;736797] …My second biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Mack didn't send Tu and Lyons out for that press conference after the Crosstown brawl. The blowback from that decision put a shock collar around that team's neck for the remainder of that season. That team never quite regained its swagger. Would have been interesting to see what that team would have done in the tourney as a 1-3 seed rather than the 10 seed they became…QUOTE]

this is the single worst decision the program has made during my fandom. Mack and the University should never have let those kids go out to the podium after that game. I know hindsight is 20/20, but this was a terrible decision. My wife and I were screaming as much at the tv when we saw the press conference. Tu deserves to be in the rafters, and the school owes it to him.

[MHettel]

[QUOTE=Blue Blooded-05;736797] …My second biggest "what if" in Xavier history is what if Mack didn't send Tu and Lyons out for that press conference after the Crosstown brawl. The blowback from that decision put a shock collar around that team's neck for the remainder of that season. That team never quite regained its swagger. Would have been interesting to see what that team would have done in the tourney as a 1-3 seed rather than the 10 seed they became…QUOTE]

this is the single worst decision the program has made during my fandom. Mack and the University should never have let those kids go out to the podium after that game. I know hindsight is 20/20, but this was a terrible decision. My wife and I were screaming as much at the tv when we saw the press conference. Tu deserves to be in the rafters, and the school owes it to him.

Yes, the school should have not allowed the guys to speak. But also, they could have used some better judgement as well....

they HAVE to own their own actions on that.

[Xville]

[QUOTE=XUBison;736812]

Yes, the school should have not allowed the guys to speak. But also, they could have used some better judgement as well....

they HAVE to own their own actions on that.

Because they said they zipped them up? And that they are a bunch of gangstas in the locker room? Oh the horror! I think Xavier admin should have owned their actions and protected their players instead of leaving them out to dry and taking away the soul of that team. Reflection session bs

[Blue Blooded-05]

[QUOTE=MHettel;736813]

Because they said they zipped them up? And that they are a bunch of gangstas in the locker room? Oh the horror! I think Xavier admin should have owned their actions and protected their players instead of leaving them out to dry and taking away the soul of that team. Reflection session bs

Agree...what they said wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. But that was the whole point. Tu and Lyons got caught up on the wrong side of a narrative spun to protect corporate interests.

Without that press conference, the narrative would have been UC, member of the "best" college basketball conference, got their ass beat by a mid-major and threw all the punches. This was inconvenient for ESPiN, who had a major financial investment in the old Big East.

Xavier gifted ESPiN that press conference. To quote Don Draper from Mad Men, "if you don't like what they're saying, change the conversation."

The optics of what Tu/Lyons said allowed ESPiN to completely change the conversation away from what happened on the floor and onto the dichotomy of a Jesuit Catholic institution boasting about having a locker room full of "gangstas" who zip up their opponents in body bags. Mission accomplished.

Xavier employs people in media relations whose entire job is to protect the brand by avoiding landmines like this. Not recognizing this was a massive failure. The lame reflections sessions were an obvious and sadly predictable overcorrection to something that should have never happened in the first place.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Agree...what they said wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. But that was the whole point. Tu and Lyons got caught up on the wrong side of a narrative spun to protect corporate interests.

Without that press conference, the narrative would have been UC, member of the "best" college basketball conference, got their ass beat by a mid-major and threw all the punches. This was inconvenient for ESPiN, who had a major financial investment in the old Big East.

Xavier gifted ESPiN that press conference. To quote Don Draper from Mad Men, "if you don't like what they're saying, change the conversation."

The optics of what Tu/Lyons said allowed ESPiN to completely change the conversation away from what happened on the floor and onto the dichotomy of a Jesuit Catholic institution boasting about having a locker room full of "gangstas" who zip up their opponents in body bags. Mission accomplished.

Xavier employs people in media relations whose entire job is to protect the brand by avoiding landmines like this. Not recognizing this was a massive failure. The lame reflections sessions were an obvious and sadly predictable overcorrection to something that should have never happened in the first place.

Yeah by far the biggest culprits in the media mess that ensued were Mack, Bobinski, and anyone else (media relations or otherwise) who thought it was ok to put our players in front of mics and a salivating press. What an epic blunder.

[MHettel]

I wish I had you guys as parents when I was a kid. I always seemed to get in trouble for the stupid things I did.

[XUBison]

I wish I had you guys as parents when I was a kid. I always seemed to get in trouble for the stupid things I did.

Did your parents frequently send you out to front yard pressers after you just finished a hyper-emotional fight with the neighborhood bully?

[paulxu]

Did your parents frequently send you out to front yard pressers after you just finished a hyper-emotional fight with the neighborhood bully?

No; it was worse. I had to go to his house and apologize for fighting to his parents.

Imagine Tu (or better yet Macura) apologizing to Mick. Hard to see...right?

[Xville]

No; it was worse. I had to go to his house and apologize for fighting to his parents.

Imagine Tu (or better yet Macura) apologizing to Mick. Hard to see...right?

Why would tu have to apologize? Micks kids are the ones who couldn’t control themselves after receiving a bit of smack talk

[paulxu]

Why would tu have to apologize? Micks kids are the ones who couldn’t control themselves after receiving a bit of smack talk

My folks aren't around anymore, or I'd ask they why I had to apologize when the bully started it.

[SemajParlor]

Very tough question. I think I lean Tu if I HAD to pick. But man, I was rewatching a few games from Blueitt senior year the other day and I think even I took for granted how amazing of a scorer he was. That 2018 team was so deadly.

[SC in DC]

I know I'm a geezer, but how can you put up a 4 yr, 2200 pt scorer in 142 games, and not an 1700 pt scorer in less then 3 seasons (68 games due to injuries), BEFORE the 3 pt shot!! Highest season scoring average (30 ppg) Highest career average (23.6) Most points in a game (50) and 18 FG in a single game! He's in the HOF but should be hanging from the rafters also.

[XUBison]

No; it was worse. I had to go to his house and apologize for fighting to his parents.

Imagine Tu (or better yet Macura) apologizing to Mick. Hard to see...right?

Oh, I’m on board with the apology part. But your parents didn’t make you go talk to the media about it first, did they?

Apologies should’ve happened all around, while everyone otherwise kept their mouths shut. Then you move on. Instead, they let those kids provide fodder to the Talking Heads for the remainder of the season. Those kids had no sense for the gravity of the moment, and why should they? Even if we could somehow have remove them from the emotionality of the situation, why should Tu Holloway and Mark Lyons have been left to handle the university’s most public controversy? They should have instinctively known how to handle such a situation? There was nothing to gain by having Tu and Lyons talk to the media at that point, absolutely nothing. The risk/reward calculus was preposterous, because there was none.

[paulxu]

I think the other kid's folks were the media. Not sure. :slapfight::handshake::medicated:

[UCGRAD4X]

Not sure this was at the advent of the wokeness phenomenon...but what otherwise would have been two young kids, reacting to a hard-fought, overwhelming and emotional victory over a bunch of crybaby thugs (including, at the time, present and recent coach) - contrasting the viscous assault (I am still wondering why nobody was charged) with the true warriors (i.e., gangsta's, not thugs) who zipped-em-up metaphorically INSTEAD OF resulting to actual violence - was manipulated by the biased, faux outraged, nancy media.

As for the OP, I wonder if Tre would get away with the one-foot-out jump shot, where he drawing fouls by advancing contact. I believe they have changed, modified or deemphasized this rule interpretation. 6

[D-West & PO-Z]

Pretty amazing to see in 10 years how Tu went from criticized in the media and by many of his own fans, to every fan in Cintas 3 different nights this week chanting "Zip Em Up" at every opportunity. All while the school itself promotes it and sells the merchandise.

I think we should all acknowledge the unnecessary pearl clutching that occurred after his comments.

[chico]

Over the course of the season I’d take a David West. In a one game scenario (or for an ncaa tournament run) I think Crawford might be my choice. Larkin is before my time but imagine he’d be in that one game/tournament run convo. I love west for the season, maybe I’m overstating the importance of guard play in one game (or tournament) scenario, but feel Crawford could win a game single-handedly more than any other X player.

For one game I'll take Lionel Chalmers during the Run. I don't think any Xavier player can match that stretch of 10-15 games he had.