ESPN XU Article

[EastCoastXman]

Great article by Myron Medcaff on ESPN college bball site. X back in the spotlight. Good read

[94GRAD]

Great article by Myron Medcaff on ESPN college bball site. X back in the spotlight. Good read

Want to add a link to your post?

[atljar]

Want to add a link to your post?

LOL. That was my thought too. Did a did searching and found this:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/34198482/sean-miller-xavier-turbulent-journey-second-chance-college-basketball

[Blue Blooded-05]

Great article. Nothing groundbreaking for any of us diehards on here, but nice to see some semi-love from ESPiN.

This stat caught my attention...

"The athletic department at Xavier, a school without football, generates about $13 million of its annual $24 million revenue from men's and women's basketball, according to Department of Education data"

Where is the other $11 million coming from?

Also, Miller has been playing/coaching college basketball since 1987 and thinks college freshman are 20 years old?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Great article. Nothing groundbreaking for any of us diehards on here, but nice to see some semi-love from ESPiN.

This stat caught my attention...

"The athletic department at Xavier, a school without football, generates about $13 million of its annual $24 million revenue from men's and women's basketball, according to Department of Education data"

Where is the other $11 million coming from?

\

I wondered the exact same thing.

[GoMuskies]

I assumed the other $11 milion was donations. That's the only thing that makes sense.

[atljar]

I assumed the other $11 milion was donations. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Seat license fee donations are likely 1/2ish of that

[xukeith]

Excellent article. Author had some strong angles and info. Didn't make many errors.

[MHettel]

What is the consensus interpretation of how Book answered questions about what Miller may have known / did he direct the activites?

My sense is that Book was very aware that his existence on the staff was very specific in that his only purpose was to recruit and land top prospects. It seems like the pressure was immense and he ultimately resorted to taking some shortcuts and cheating. I don't believe he was instructed to do so, nor do I believe he let Miller know what he was doing.

Book goes on the record saying he doubts he and Miller will ever speak again....which kind of goes with the territory when you betray the trust of someone and it tarnishes their image.

Miller will still get punished just because it happened. Hopefully Book has made a statement to the NCAA to the effect that "Miller didnt know"

[D-West & PO-Z]

Miller had a responsibility to in his own words: "promote and reinforce a culture of compliance." He deserves whatever punishment is coming, I just hope it is a short one. 2 of his assistants also arranged for fake academic transcripts.

Some of the FBI wiretaps played in that HBO documentary while not 100% explicit are pretty damning when it comes to paying players to come there.

Again, I don't give a shit, I think payers should be able to get whatever money they can. But to pretend Miller was this clueless innocent leader of the program is beyond absurd.

[MHettel]

But to pretend Miller was this clueless innocent leader of the program is beyond absurd.

You are stating your opinion on this matter, and yet you present it as though it were fact.

The reality is that you don't possess any evidence at all to support your claim that Miller was aware of the rule violations (which is essentially what your comment is saying). Through the course of the investigation, there has been no court accepted evidence presented to the public which implicated Miller.

There is a phone conversation where one crook (Book) told another crook (Dawkins) that Miller paid Ayton. That is not sworn testimony, nor was there any expectation that Book was telling the truth. people lie all of the time. Especially the kind of people that make a habit of breaking rules.

I'll say again, that I have no idea whether or not Miller was involved directly, or had knowledge. There is certainly suspicion, but also as certain is the fact that there has been no evidence made available to confirm those suspicions.

In the absence of evidence, I'm simply not going to take one position over another. I do not know. Perhaps over time, we will get evidence to push the conclusion one direction or another.

I ask you this.....if during the course of the legal case or NCAA case Book Richardson provided sworn testimony that he never informed Miller of his actions, nor did Miller provide him direction to take those actions and Book had no reason to believe that Miller had knowledge of his actions, would that be compelling enough for you to change your opinion?

Would you be willing to retract you statement that is is "beyond absurd"?

It wouldn't surprise me ONE BIT that as an act of contrition and as a way to extend an olive branch to Sean that Book would make such a statement.

With that said, Miller is going to get punished no matter what. It doesnt matter what he knows or told someone to do, he will be punished based on the fact that it happened under his watch. The degree of knowledge and his role in the cheating should unquestionably be considered as part of the severity of his punishment...but there will be no scenario where he goes unpunished.

So, I'm going to take a "wait and see" approach before I entrench myself into some firm opinion about what really happened. In fact, I think it's "beyond absurd" to do otherwise.

[Backyard Champ]

You are stating your opinion on this matter, and yet you present it as though it were fact.

The reality is that you don't possess any evidence at all to support your claim that Miller was aware of the rule violations (which is essentially what your comment is saying). Through the course of the investigation, there has been no court accepted evidence presented to the public which implicated Miller.

There is a phone conversation where one crook (Book) told another crook (Dawkins) that Miller paid Ayton. That is not sworn testimony, nor was there any expectation that Book was telling the truth. people lie all of the time. Especially the kind of people that make a habit of breaking rules.

I'll say again, that I have no idea whether or not Miller was involved directly, or had knowledge. There is certainly suspicion, but also as certain is the fact that there has been no evidence made available to confirm those suspicions.

In the absence of evidence, I'm simply not going to take one position over another. I do not know. Perhaps over time, we will get evidence to push the conclusion one direction or another.

I ask you this.....if during the course of the legal case or NCAA case Book Richardson provided sworn testimony that he never informed Miller of his actions, nor did Miller provide him direction to take those actions and Book had no reason to believe that Miller had knowledge of his actions, would that be compelling enough for you to change your opinion?

Would you be willing to retract you statement that is is "beyond absurd"?

It wouldn't surprise me ONE BIT that as an act of contrition and as a way to extend an olive branch to Sean that Book would make such a statement.

With that said, Miller is going to get punished no matter what. It doesnt matter what he knows or told someone to do, he will be punished based on the fact that it happened under his watch. The degree of knowledge and his role in the cheating should unquestionably be considered as part of the severity of his punishment...but there will be no scenario where he goes unpunished.

So, I'm going to take a "wait and see" approach before I entrench myself into some firm opinion about what really happened. In fact, I think it's "beyond absurd" to do otherwise.

Dwest is right. It’s absurd to think Miller was clueless to the happenings of his assistants and their recruiting. Miller 100 percent knew. If he didn’t, it’s concerning his lack of oversight on his assistants.

I get not wanting to admit it, but you’re fooling yourself.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dwest is right. It’s absurd to think Miller was clueless to the happenings of his assistants and their recruiting. Miller 100 percent knew. If he didn’t, it’s concerning his lack of oversight on his assistants.

I get not wanting to admit it, but you’re fooling yourself.

At this point I'd be more concerned about Miller as the head coach of our program if he didnt know than if he did know.

There are also released recordings of Miller himself similar to those of Will Wade. It isn't an outright admission or a sure fire smoking gun but its fairly damning in the context of the conversation discussing a recruit they were competing with against Miami.

[XUGRAD80]

I wonder if any of you have run a business with several employees? Specifically a retail/commercial business that operates during hours that you’re not there to oversee the operations personally? If you have, you’d know that it is quite possible for employees to do things, while you’re not there to oversee them, that aren’t always according to the “rules”. This is especially true when you have employees that are not always working “on site” and are often left on their own or sent out “on the road”. Sometimes those things can be quite illegal even. I’ve seen it and experienced it first hand.

I’m not saying if Miller knew what was going on or not. I don’t know. I would guess that he at least suspected that some things might be going on that weren’t on the up and up, but we don’t really know. If Book wasn’t keeping him up to date on everything that he was doing I don’t think that it’s “absurd” to think that he might not have known exactly what Book was up to all the time. With all of the things that a head coach is involved with besides recruiting, I think that it would have been very easy for Book to keep things from him.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I wonder if any of you have run a business with several employees? Specifically a retail/commercial business that operates during hours that you’re not there to oversee the operations personally? If you have, you’d know that it is quite possible for employees to do things, while you’re not there to oversee them, that aren’t always according to the “rules”. This is especially true when you have employees that are not always working “on site” and are often left on their own or sent out “on the road”. Sometimes those things can be quite illegal even. I’ve seen it and experienced it first hand.

I’m not saying if Miller knew what was going on or not. I don’t know. I would guess that he at least suspected that some things might be going on that weren’t on the up and up, but we don’t really know. If Book wasn’t keeping him up to date on everything that he was doing I don’t think that it’s “absurd” to think that he might not have known exactly what Book was up to all the time. With all of the things that a head coach is involved with besides recruiting, I think that it would have been very easy for Book to keep things from him.

There is nothing dumber than comparing real world jobs to those of coaches and athletes, especially professional sports but college as well.

And the answer is I have. We had many compliance meetings and had to actively monitor and do audits. You can't stop every person from doing something wrong but we had records of the education and compliance meetings. And we had a hell of a lot more than 3 employees to oversee. We promoted a culture of compliance and we usually always found out one way or another when someone wasn't doing something right.

Also everyone is seemingly ignoring Miller's own damning comments on tape. Also it wasn't only Book on his staff who was doing illegal things.

The delusion just because he is now our coach again is amazing.

[MHettel]

There is nothing dumber than comparing real world jobs to those of coaches and athletes, especially professional sports but college as well.

And the answer is I have. We had many compliance meetings and had to actively monitor and do audits. You can't stop every person from doing something wrong but we had records of the education and compliance meetings. And we had a hell of a lot more than 3 employees to oversee. We promoted a culture of compliance and we usually always found out one way or another when someone wasn't doing something right.

Also everyone is seemingly ignoring Miller's own damning comments on tape. Also it wasn't only Book on his staff who was doing illegal things.

The delusion just because he is now our coach again is amazing.

I refer to it as “due process”.

You refer to it as “dumb” and “beyond absurd”

Keep in mind that when the story broke, Miller was widely expected to be fired immediately. If he wasn’t. Ever wonder what info Arizona had that led them to be comfortable moving forward with Miller?

[JTG]

What did Pearl get, 3 or 4 games ? And he has a history of cheating at every school he's coached. Heck, Self is still untouched.

[XUGRAD80]

There is nothing dumber than comparing real world jobs to those of coaches and athletes, especially professional sports but college as well.

And the answer is I have. We had many compliance meetings and had to actively monitor and do audits. You can't stop every person from doing something wrong but we had records of the education and compliance meetings. And we had a hell of a lot more than 3 employees to oversee. We promoted a culture of compliance and we usually always found out one way or another when someone wasn't doing something right.

Also everyone is seemingly ignoring Miller's own damning comments on tape. Also it wasn't only Book on his staff who was doing illegal things.

The delusion just because he is now our coach again is amazing.

You’ve got a great habit of insulting your fellow posters……first you call some absurd, now you’re calling me dumb. Your calling others delusion. Wow, really nice.

But I’m not ignoring anything. I said I didn’t know one way or another, and that I had my suspicions. But I don’t jump to conclusions based on reading articles on websites either. Ever heard the old advice to believe only 1/2 what you hear, and nothing of what you’ve read? I’ve not sat through the court cases, haven’t read the transcripts, certainly haven’t meet or talked with ANY of the parties involved. I’m not ignoring those article, and I’ve no special feeling for the fact that he is the Xavier coach (“our” coach? So now you’re on the team too?:headscratch:’) either. I’ll let others make their own decisions and certainly won’t stoop to calling others names because they don’t agree with me. (Although I can certainly think of a couple that fit!)

[D-West & PO-Z]

Ever wonder what info Arizona had that led them to be comfortable moving forward with Miller?

His stellar record.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What did Pearl get, 3 or 4 games ? And he has a history of cheating at every school he's coached. Heck, Self is still untouched.

Yeah Self is as dirty as they come for sure. I would think Miller would get something along the lines of Pearl's but the only thing I have seen that attempted to guess the number was an article I posted earlier from an Arizona paper that quoted someone expecting 9-15 games. That seems a bit much.

Whatever the case I am very excited to have Miller back and whatever suspension he gets it will be worth waiting it at to have him for years to come.

[D-West & PO-Z]

You’ve got a great habit of insulting your fellow posters……first you call some absurd, now you’re calling me dumb. Your calling others delusion. Wow, really nice.

But I’m not ignoring anything. I said I didn’t know one way or another, and that I had my suspicions. But I don’t jump to conclusions based on reading articles on websites either. Ever heard the old advice to believe only 1/2 what you hear, and nothing of what you’ve read? I’ve not sat through the court cases, haven’t read the transcripts, certainly haven’t meet or talked with ANY of the parties involved. I’m not ignoring those article, and I’ve no special feeling for the fact that he is the Xavier coach (“our” coach? So now you’re on the team too?:headscratch:’) either. I’ll let others make their own decisions and certainly won’t stoop to calling others names because they don’t agree with me. (Although I can certainly think of a couple that fit!)

I am not calling you dumb or anyone else. I think it is a silly argument every time someone compares their job to that of a professional athlete or coach or college coach. I should have used the word silly I guess.

And calling me out for saying "our" coach, ha, ok!

Listen, none of us know for sure, I get that but here are the facts:

Miller had multiple assistants (not just Book) working for him who were committing major violations.

Miller is recorded on an FBI wiretap (https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamzagoria/2020/03/18/new-hbo-film-reveals-never-before-heard-audio-recordings-between-former-runner-christian-dawkins-and-coaches-sean-miller-will-wade/?sh=310355904746) saying some pretty damning stuff in a conversation with the guy at the heart of the FBI investigation.

I think we can all agree these head coaches are typically control freaks who are involved in every aspect of the program. Just like I couldnt accept that Pitino or Pearl, or Self, or Will Wade, or whoever didn't know anything about any of their assistants activities, I just can't accept it about Miller, especially with him on tape.

Again, don't care, ecstatic he is our coach, I am all for players getting what money they can, and I hope his suspension is 1 game.

[XUGRAD80]

someone compares their job to that of a professional athlete or coach or college coach



I think we can all agree these head coaches are typically control freaks who are involved in every aspect of the program.


1….Actually I was comparing RUNNING a BUSINESS to being a Head Coach at a major college. I think it’s a fair comparison in many ways, and it is one that many people have made over the years, not just me or other posters here. It has been the subject of MANY books and programs, even college courses in management.


2….the 2nd thing is an assumption on your part. Both that we would all agree, or even that they are all control freaks.

I believe that it very much varies from coach to coach. In fact, I KNOW it does. They may be involved, but that doesn’t mean they micro manage everything. The level of involvement in the various parts of running a program vary from coach to coach.

(In fact, if you read the actual article again, you should observe that Miller is determined to have MORE interaction with his coaches this time around. That would indicate to me that he was less hands on than you seem to believe.)

[D-West & PO-Z]

1….Actually I was comparing RUNNING a BUSINESS to being a Head Coach at a major college. I think it’s a fair comparison in many ways, and it is one that many people have made over the years, not just me or other posters here. It has been the subject of MANY books and programs, even college courses in management.


2….the 2nd thing is an assumption on your part. Both that we would all agree, or even that they are all control freaks.

I believe that it very much varies from coach to coach. In fact, I KNOW it does. They may be involved, but that doesn’t mean they micro manage everything. The level of involvement in the various parts of running a program vary from coach to coach.

(In fact, if you read the actual article again, you should observe that Miller is determined to have MORE interaction with his coaches this time around. That would indicate to me that he was less hands on than you seem to believe.)

Yeah I'm not buying any of these power program head coaches being passive about knowing much about recruiting which is the lifeline of the program. If you want to buy that line of defense, feel free. Sean Miller screams the opposite of that. As does his FBI recorded conversation, lol.

Miller is going to lunch more with his assistants and promoting more work life balance. That is great but not close to what you are implying it means.

[xu82]

“Two words, Mr President - plausible deniability.”

I kid, because I don’t know or care. I really don’t care. It’s over once the penalty is handed out and satisfied. Let’s get that behind us and start playing some Xavier quality basketball!

[UCGRAD4X]

I wonder how much the changing landscape of player compensation is going to play into it. I know that is not exactly what happened here but it may be seen as not as much of an "optic" as it was.

[XUGRAD80]

Yeah I'm not buying any of these power program head coaches being passive about knowing much about recruiting which is the lifeline of the program. If you want to buy that line of defense, feel free. Sean Miller screams the opposite of that. As does his FBI recorded conversation, lol.

Miller is going to lunch more with his assistants and promoting more work life balance. That is great but not close to what you are implying it means.

Yeah well I guess then that your were mistaken in your assumption that “we can all agree”. I’m not going to try and convince you because you’ve already got your mind made up. Would just be a waste of time to try.

[Xville]

1….Actually I was comparing RUNNING a BUSINESS to being a Head Coach at a major college. I think it’s a fair comparison in many ways, and it is one that many people have made over the years, not just me or other posters here. It has been the subject of MANY books and programs, even college courses in management.


2….the 2nd thing is an assumption on your part. Both that we would all agree, or even that they are all control freaks.

I believe that it very much varies from coach to coach. In fact, I KNOW it does. They may be involved, but that doesn’t mean they micro manage everything. The level of involvement in the various parts of running a program vary from coach to coach.

(In fact, if you read the actual article again, you should observe that Miller is determined to have MORE interaction with his coaches this time around. That would indicate to me that he was less hands on than you seem to believe.)

I agree with a lot of this especially regarding the micromanaging part. Not everyone is pitino. Just as there are different types of CEOs and how the run their business, coaches I feel are the same way.

With that said, do I believe that Sean had zero knowledge as to what book was doing? No, I think that would be pretty naive especially given the tapes. I don’t care though.. I firmly believe at that level of basketball everyone was cheating ( so much smoke over decades leads me to this conclusion) and he was just leveling the playing field. Doesn’t make it right, I just think that’s the case, and at this point I don’t care…all this stuff is basically legal now anyways even if it can’t come directly from the school.

[paulxu]

2 years ago if a coach got a big booster to give a kid $100K to play at a school, BIG TROUBLE.

Today if a big booster gives a kid $100K for his NIL to play at a school, JUST FINE.

[SM#24]

2 years ago if a coach got a big booster to give a kid $100K to play at a school, BIG TROUBLE.

Today if a big booster gives a kid $100K for his NIL to play at a school, JUST FINE.

Today it may not be fine, it may not be enough.

[MHettel]

You are stating your opinion on this matter, and yet you present it as though it were fact.

The reality is that you don't possess any evidence at all to support your claim that Miller was aware of the rule violations (which is essentially what your comment is saying). Through the course of the investigation, there has been no court accepted evidence presented to the public which implicated Miller.

There is a phone conversation where one crook (Book) told another crook (Dawkins) that Miller paid Ayton. That is not sworn testimony, nor was there any expectation that Book was telling the truth. people lie all of the time. Especially the kind of people that make a habit of breaking rules.

I'll say again, that I have no idea whether or not Miller was involved directly, or had knowledge. There is certainly suspicion, but also as certain is the fact that there has been no evidence made available to confirm those suspicions.

In the absence of evidence, I'm simply not going to take one position over another. I do not know. Perhaps over time, we will get evidence to push the conclusion one direction or another.

I ask you this.....if during the course of the legal case or NCAA case Book Richardson provided sworn testimony that he never informed Miller of his actions, nor did Miller provide him direction to take those actions and Book had no reason to believe that Miller had knowledge of his actions, would that be compelling enough for you to change your opinion?

Would you be willing to retract you statement that is is "beyond absurd"?

It wouldn't surprise me ONE BIT that as an act of contrition and as a way to extend an olive branch to Sean that Book would make such a statement.

With that said, Miller is going to get punished no matter what. It doesnt matter what he knows or told someone to do, he will be punished based on the fact that it happened under his watch. The degree of knowledge and his role in the cheating should unquestionably be considered as part of the severity of his punishment...but there will be no scenario where he goes unpunished.

So, I'm going to take a "wait and see" approach before I entrench myself into some firm opinion about what really happened. In fact, I think it's "beyond absurd" to do otherwise.

Anyone want to jump back into this discussion?

My ideas and view of the situation was apparently not as “absurd” afterall.

[mid major]

Anyone want to jump back into this discussion?

My ideas and view of the situation was apparently not as “absurd” afterall.

My guess is you're not being ignored but somewhere out there are a few people eating crow.

[XUGRAD80]

Anyone want to jump back into this discussion?

My ideas and view of the situation was apparently not as “absurd” afterall.


My take from all of this is that the board decided that the NCAA's use of "lack of institutional control" as a catchall to justify punishing head coaches for transgressions committed by subordinates, is often bogus. Kind of like punishing parents for the sins of their children committed while they were away from the parents' supervision.

Anyone that has ever run a business, especially a business that operates when they are not there, or one that allows their employees to operate outside of the physical building that the business occupies, knows that they cannot oversee or control everything that happens. They can give out rules and regulations in writing. They can train their employees. They can hang signs and warnings. They can do all of the things to make sure that they have hired honest and dependable people to work for them. But none of that is a guarantee that things won't happen when they aren't there, or when the people are not being directly supervised. Auditors uncover situations where employees break rules in every business. It is all too common in business and government. That doesn't mean that head coaches don't shoulder some of the responsibility or shouldn't face consequences for the actions of their subordinates in every case. But if the HC (or boss) does all of the things they can to ensure that the rules and regulations are followed, and a subordinate acting on their own decides to break the rules, I don't see how the HC can be held responsible for that.

[Xville]

My thought is that if we are going to judge what the iarp (that’s dissolving btw) handed down as bible, then we probably should get a different bible. My opinion is that miller probably knew about it, but it’s only an opinion. I just find it extremely hard to believe that he would have sat down with Anton on numerous occasions and nothing was ever said to miller about it. That’s pretty unbelievable to me.

Do I care if miller did or didn’t? Not in the least. Let’s get to the damn tournament.

[Masterofreality]

Anyone want to jump back into this discussion?

My ideas and view of the situation was apparently not as “absurd” afterall.

Hett was correct all along.
Despite what Schlabach said in his damning but false ESPN “expose”, Sean Miller was never on wiretap tape offering to pay D’Andre Ayton or any other players. And in fact, the Other “damning” Forbes article projected stuff that Will Wade said to Dawkins and relayed to Miller onto Miller.
My contention remains that Book, with his NY Gauchos AAU background, which necessitates an incestual relationship with shoe companies, carried over into his College assistants career. I can’t recall any “dirty” recruits that he brought to X, but there was no doubt that Book & Dawkins were unclean.
And the most you can accuse Sean of is “purposely not knowing”, which is a firewall that is used in all walks of life.
Bottom line, Sean is exonerated and free to go forward, and Hett was correct in his cynicism.
We move on.….

[Smails]

With that said, Miller is going to get punished no matter what. It doesnt matter what he knows or told someone to do, he will be punished based on the fact that it happened under his watch. The degree of knowledge and his role in the cheating should unquestionably be considered as part of the severity of his punishment...but there will be no scenario where he goes unpunished.



Looks like everyone whiffed at some point on this thread

[nuts4xu]

On to Georgetown...

https://assets3.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/10/01/ebeac630-c964-407e-a3b1-d54a89b2b50b/thumbnail/1200x630/d716ecaec584ca8741c2c83e2b05c66d/untitled-12.jpg

[XU_Lou]

My guess is you're not being ignored but somewhere out there are a few people eating crow.

Hmmm, you mean another leftist organization lied about a story that fooled almost everyone once again... Seems to be happening quite a bit these days...