Rankings 2021-2022

[xukeith]

Saw X is officially ranked 25th in latest AP poll.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

[MHettel]

is this the first Top 25 Ranking since Steele has been on board? Step in the right direction if so!

[xukeith]

is this the first Top 25 Ranking since Steele has been on board? Step in the right direction if so!

No it is Steele's multiple pre conference top 25 acknowledgements.

A step in the right direction it is.

[xu82]

I didn’t realize Nova had lost TWICE! Not horrible losses, but that caught me by surprise. I even saw part on one of those losses.

[xavbball]

Yes it is. A huge step in the right direction it is.

We’ve been ranked the last two seasons. Goes to show how meaningless these
polls are early in the season. We’ve been here before with Steele’s teams.

[DexterBailey84]

Goes to show how meaningless these
polls are early in the season.

Goes to show just how meaningless November is in college basketball as well.

[Xville]

Great how are we supposed to sneak up on people now? :biggrin:

[xavierj]

Travis does fine outside the Big East as he is 32-10 outside the conference, and his only loss to a mid major was UC in his first year. This year will be defined on how Xavier does in the Big East, which they should at least win 11 or 12 games minimum. 6 games against DePaul, Butler and Georgetown and then you have Marquette who is basically all Freshman and Creighton is very average as well. From what I see so far is UCONN, NOVA, Seton Hall and Xavier at the top, Next tier would be Providence, Creighton and Marquette, then DePaul, Butler and Georgetown.

[bleedXblue]

Travis does fine outside the Big East as he is 32-10 outside the conference, and his only loss to a mid major was UC in his first year. This year will be defined on how Xavier does in the Big East, which they should at least win 11 or 12 games minimum. 6 games against DePaul, Butler and Georgetown and then you have Marquette who is basically all Freshman and Creighton is very average as well. From what I see so far is UCONN, NOVA, Seton Hall and Xavier at the top, Next tier would be Providence, Creighton and Marquette, then DePaul, Butler and Georgetown.

There are no easy win games in the BE.

I do think this team needs to win at least 10 with the ceiling being 14.

[webxu]

There are no easy win games in the BE.

I do think this team needs to win at least 10 with the ceiling being 14.

Have to take care of business at home go 9-1 or 8-2, then win on the road vs bottom teams.

[xubrew]

Goes to show just how meaningless November is in college basketball as well.

I can see why people would say that, but I really don't agree. I think one of the things that's great about college basketball in November is that it is so important.

If you want to make the NCAA Tournament, you need to play in and win games that are hard to win. Big wins in November pretty much count the same as big wins at any other time of the year. If you're in a league like the Big East, and you have those opportunities all season long, then you still shouldn't just mail it in in November, but if you do, you still have chances. But if you're...say...Saint Bonaventure, or Colorado State, or Drake, or even Gonzaga, this part of the season is HUGE! Teams like that take the floor knowing they have to win these big games NOW because they don't get these kinds of chances to do it later on. If they don't win now, then one of the games they do win better be that last conference tournament game, because that's the only way they're making it.

[drudy23]

We are currently #1 in the RPI!!!

Yes I know it's too early to mean anything.

[xavier513]

This is the 7th time Steele has had a team in the top 25 of the AP Poll. All of the rankings were in Nov/Dec.

2018-2019: 0 weeks

2019-2020: 5 weeks

10/21/19 #19
11/11/19 #21
11/18/19 #18
11/25/19 #25
12/09/19 #23

2020-2021: 1 week

12/21/20 #22

2021-2022: 1 week (so far)

11/22/21 #25

[GIMMFD]

I can see why people would say that, but I really don't agree. I think one of the things that's great about college basketball in November is that it is so important.

If you want to make the NCAA Tournament, you need to play in and win games that are hard to win. Big wins in November pretty much count the same as big wins at any other time of the year. If you're in a league like the Big East, and you have those opportunities all season long, then you still shouldn't just mail it in in November, but if you do, you still have chances. But if you're...say...Saint Bonaventure, or Colorado State, or Drake, or even Gonzaga, this part of the season is HUGE! Teams like that take the floor knowing they have to win these big games NOW because they don't get these kinds of chances to do it later on. If they don't win now, then one of the games they do win better be that last conference tournament game, because that's the only way they're making it.

Agreed, that and also even though we aren't really that great in the Thanksgiving tournaments they are fun as hell to watch, a lot of good basketball going on during feast week, I mean hell we got #1 vs #2 tonight. Even if they don't end up as the top two teams, it makes for an interesting watch.

[Xuperman]

IMO, the Cyclones and Bearcats are must win games to assure a favorable OOC come selection Sunday. A win vs Memphis would nicely negate stubbing our toe in those 2 contests, but that now appears to be a high bar.

[Xville]

IMO, the Cyclones and Bearcats are must win games to assure a favorable OOC come selection Sunday. A win vs Memphis would nicely negate stubbing our toe in those 2 contests, but that now appears to be a high bar.

I think I agree with Iowa state just based on the complete rebuilding job they are having to go thru…will know more tonight once we see them live. From what I see of uc so far, I think they may win a lot of games in the American. Wes Miller has them playing really well…they almost beat Arkansas last night who should finish in the top 3 in a good sec.

Of course with that said, we never want to lose to uc :)

[94GRAD]

Iowa State #19 in the AP, #23 in the coaches

X is #32 in AP, #35 in the coaches

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

[GoMuskies]

Based on results to date, that's fair for Iowa State. I'll still take the under on them making the Tournament.

[Final4]

You lose to #19 on a neutral court and you drop from #25 to #32…………seems a bit harsh.

[bleedXblue]

You lose to #19 on a neutral court and you drop from #25 to #32…………seems a bit harsh.

Short a first team all big east player and one of the key guys off the bench in Kunkel.

The pollers don't care.......

[X-man]

Just win, baby. The polls will take care of themselves.

[xubrew]

Short a first team all big east player and one of the key guys off the bench in Kunkel.

The pollers don't care.......

The pollers don't know. They don't watch the games. The coaches watch the teams that they play, and that's really it. And most of them have their DOBOs vote for them. The writers watch the games/teams that they cover.

It used to bug me that the voters put so little effort into it, but for whatever reason it really doesn't any more. I just don't care about the rankings anymore. I still look at them, but put almost no stock in them.

[boozehound]

You lose to #19 on a neutral court and you drop from #25 to #32…………seems a bit harsh.

I agree. I guess you could argue we weren't particularly competitive against Iowa State, but still.

[JTG]

I agree. I guess you could argue we weren't particularly competitive against Iowa State, but still.
We were way more competitive than than #9 Memphis, who got taken to the woodshed.

[IM4X]

I am looking forward to seeing the lineup of Free + Nunge + Scruggs + Johnson + Jones. We have a number of other players who have proven they can play well enough to be a starter, but those 5 together just seem like they could hold their own against any team in the nation.

[XU 23]

I didn't even realize Iowa St. ended up smoking Memphis after they beat us. That loss doesn't look as bad...

[webxu]

Funny how we beat OSU and lose to now #19 and drop to 32. Seton Hall beats Michigan, who has had a rough start and lose to OSU and they move into the top 25.. odd. Doesnt matter though just struck me as odd.

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/rankings/top25/

[xu82]

As we all know, it’s not where you start, but where you finish that matters. We could all use a pleasant surprise there!

[paulxu]

This should cause some more confusion. But, it takes away the need to run up the score.


This is the fourth season in which the NET rankings have been used in men's basketball and it'll be the first season that the NET rankings have been used in women's basketball.

Starting this season, the metric will slim down to just two components, rather than the previous five. The two remaining components are an adjusted net efficiency rating and the Team Value Index (TVI), which is a result-based feature that rewards teams for beating quality opponents, particularly away from home. Win percentage, adjusted win percentage and scoring margin are no longer used in the NET rankings.

[X-man]

Xavier debuts at #30 in this year's NET rankings. Impressively, we are one of only two programs with 3 Quad 1 wins (at 3-1). The other program is top-rated Purdue (3-0). Good start for the Muskies.

[paulxu]

These new rankings will be difficult to rely on (although the committee will).

Houston is #4 with the same record as Xavier at #30.
They've played no road games, and we played one, which was a win.
They are 0-1 in Quad 1. We are 3-1.
Their best win is 1 Quad 2.

How can they be #4 and we are #30?

[GoMuskies]

Don't worry about those rankings in December.

[X-man]

These new rankings will be difficult to rely on (although the committee will).

Houston is #4 with the same record as Xavier at #30.
They've played no road games, and we played one, which was a win.
They are 0-1 in Quad 1. We are 3-1.
Their best win is 1 Quad 2.

How can they be #4 and we are #30?

It is a mystery. They are worse than we are in every statistic they publish, yet are ranked #4. Obviously there are other factors at play here, because all the published metrics favor us no matter how they are weighted.

[D-West & PO-Z]

X is:

27th in AP
30th in coaches

[muskiefan82]

X is:

27th in AP
30th in coaches

Still sneaking.....

[xubrew]

These new rankings will be difficult to rely on (although the committee will).

Houston is #4 with the same record as Xavier at #30.
They've played no road games, and we played one, which was a win.
They are 0-1 in Quad 1. We are 3-1.
Their best win is 1 Quad 2.

How can they be #4 and we are #30?

Do you REALLY want it explained or are you just venting??

Either way, it really doesn't mean anything. I equate it to a scoreboard early in the game. It may say Persbyterian is ahead of Duke 6-4 with 18:00 minutes to go until halftime, but pretty much everyone would understand that's probably not an indication that Presby is actually the better team or that they're going to win the game. It's just what the score happens to be at that time. So, just like a scoreboard two minutes into a game, it's really hard to make any conclusive determinations yet.

[kxblue]

These new rankings will be difficult to rely on (although the committee will).

Houston is #4 with the same record as Xavier at #30.
They've played no road games, and we played one, which was a win.
They are 0-1 in Quad 1. We are 3-1.
Their best win is 1 Quad 2.

How can they be #4 and we are #30?

Has to be our net efficiency rating. Our offensive net efficiency has been pretty poor and prob dragging us down. I would imagine they found scoring margin to be repetitive (should show up in net efficiency).

Things like turnovers and poor ft shooting are awful for offensive efficiency and those aren’t areas X excels.

Overall I think this should be helpful for the good mid majors who will have higher efficiency ratings and won’t be penalized as much for sos.

[xubrew]

Has to be our net efficiency rating. Our offensive net efficiency has been pretty poor and prob dragging us down. I would imagine they found scoring margin to be repetitive (should show up in net efficiency).

Things like turnovers and poor ft shooting are awful for offensive efficiency and those aren’t areas X excels.

Overall I think this should be helpful for the good mid majors who will have higher efficiency ratings and won’t be penalized as much for sos.


Correct. Xavier's adjusted offensive and defensive efficiency isn't bad (40ish-50is range), but Houston's is outstanding and way ahead of X's. That's the biggest difference.

[xukeith]

Xavier debuts at #30 in this year's NET rankings. Impressively, we are one of only two programs with 3 Quad 1 wins (at 3-1). The other program is top-rated Purdue (3-0). Good start for the Muskies.

Michigan St., Ohio St, Gonzaga, VCU, California, Detroit Mercy, Tennessee Tech, Bellarmine and X are the only teams I see higher than 150th that have actually played 4 Net 1 opponents. **Bellarmine is 0-6 against Q1 opponents.

[paulxu]

Do you REALLY want it explained or are you just venting??

Either way, it really doesn't mean anything. I equate it to a scoreboard early in the game. It may say Persbyterian is ahead of Duke 6-4 with 18:00 minutes to go until halftime, but pretty much everyone would understand that's probably not an indication that Presby is actually the better team or that they're going to win the game. It's just what the score happens to be at that time. So, just like a scoreboard two minutes into a game, it's really hard to make any conclusive determinations yet.

No, it was a real question. I think it probably points to a new way of looking at things.
I would have thought our Quad wins would have counted for something, and a loss at a Quad 1 on their court would help.
The old RPI took a while to sort out, and under it we're #7 and Houston #40.

[xubrew]

No, it was a real question. I think it probably points to a new way of looking at things.
I would have thought our Quad wins would have counted for something, and a loss at a Quad 1 on their court would help.
The old RPI took a while to sort out, and under it we're #7 and Houston #40.

Quad wins SORT OF do. I mean quad wins don't directly matter, but one of the components is the Team Value Index, which is basically an opponent's overall record and their overall record where the game is played, meaning that if a team is 8-2 overall, but 8-0 at home and 0-2 on the road, the amount of credit you get for beating them on their floor will be much much much higher.

The biggest thing going for Houston (for now) is offensive and defensive efficiency. Offensive efficiency is points per possession, and defensive efficiency is points given up per the other team's possession. The NET now uses an ADJUSTED efficiency. The first year they had the NET, they didn't, but they do now. That means that if you're playing against a really good offensive team, then it will essentially adjust your raw defensive efficiency. The best thing I can compare this to would be if MLB did something where they adjusted a batting average to take into account how good the pitchers they faced were. Houston lit up some pretty good defensive teams, particularly Virginia. They also shut down Oregon, who's a very good offensive team. That's the difference for now.

But...it's still really early. They're between decent and good in three of the four categories, and outstanding in one category. Xavier is probably better than Houston in the Team Value Index for the reasons you pointed out, but nowhere near as good in the adjusted efficiency. For now. But...it's still very early.

And at the end of the day, I just don't think it matters that much. Even at the end of the season, the NET is really just a sorting tool. It's not a deciding factor. I feel like I can say that with quite a bit of certainty.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Xavier up to #20 in the NET rankings

[waggy]

NET Rankings explained...

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2021-12-06/college-basketballs-net-rankings-explained

[xukeith]

Does NCAA committee use Kenpom for its statistics breakdown? Are we allowed to know?

[xubrew]

Does NCAA committee use Kenpom for its statistics breakdown? Are we allowed to know?

It's not on the team sheet, but as far as whether or not they use it, the answer is the ones that want to use it use it, and the ones that don't want to don't. It's a committee. The individual members all value different things.

[Xuperman]

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings

Nice little bump courtesy of our partner in the wood shed last night. :whack:

Conference rounding out nicely. Creighton with a big jump featuring Max Struss 2.0. If Nova can be Nova today, could they ascend to #1? Can Buck Futler pull off a stunner Saturday? That would be absolutely Huge!

[bleedXblue]

We leap into Top 20 tomorrow. Anyone says otherwise is a moron.

[Xville]

We leap into Top 20 tomorrow. Anyone says otherwise is a moron.

Should be right around there for sure. How are we going to sneak up on people now? :)

[bleedXblue]

Should be right around there for sure. How are we going to sneak up on people now? :)

I always, always, always want to be ranked. :happy:

[Xville]

I always, always, always want to be ranked. :happy:

Oh agreed! So important for multiple reasons, just having some fun

[xubrew]

We leap into Top 20 tomorrow. Anyone says otherwise is a moron.

Well, don’t ever assume that the voters aren’t morons.

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rankings-kentucky-and-arkansas-fall-out-of-top-25-and-1-after-losses-to-unranked-teams/

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rankings-baylor-the-reigning-ncaa-tournament-champ-jumps-to-no-1-in-new-ap-top-25-poll/

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2021-12-13/baylor-takes-no-1-spot-latest-power-36-mens-college-basketball-rankings

net:

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings?utm_campaign=inline-article

[Xville]

Meh with those rankings. Not going to complain too much that x is ranked but think it’s a little low based on their resume so far. I think overall the big East is being undervalued, while Villanova looks a bit overvalued. They have a ton of equity built up over the years so again can’t complain too much

[D-West & PO-Z]

8 Big East teams are top 75 in the Net with only St. Johns (84) and Butler (134) outside of it.

Obviously these are fluid but as of this moment 8 BE road games would be quad 1 wins.

[paulxu]

8 Big East teams are top 75 in the Net with only St. Johns (84) and Butler (134) outside of it.

Obviously these are fluid but as of this moment 8 BE road games would be quad 1 wins.

The people at Georgetown are happy you decided to omit them.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The people at Georgetown are happy you decided to omit them.

Ha, I was only looking for 10....doh!

[bobbiemcgee]

Coaches 25:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/rankings/coaches/

I liked being ranked, just for the exposure, as it seems sports media only covers what is happening with the Top 25. Good to see our name up there.

[waggy]

X should be the highest BE team in NET Ratings following Nova's loss.

[paulxu]

There must be a real strange hook in their algorithm for the NET for this to be the case:

Tennessee NET 10
Quad 1....1-2
Quad 2....1-0
Quad 3....1-0
Quad 4....5-0
SOS....131

Xavier NET 11
Quad 1....3-1
Quad 2....2-0
Quad 3....2-0
Quad 4....4-0
SOS....17

[American X]

There must be a real strange hook in their algorithm for the NET for this to be the case:

Tennessee NET 10
Quad 1....1-2
Quad 2....1-0
Quad 3....1-0
Quad 4....5-0
SOS....131

Xavier NET 11
Quad 1....3-1
Quad 2....2-0
Quad 3....2-0
Quad 4....4-0
SOS....17

There's a glitch in The Matrix.

[UCGRAD4X]

There's a glitch in The Matrix.

Glitch hell! That's a full blown short circuit. Somebody swallowed the wrong damn pill. What a joke. This makes the whole NET meaningless3.

[X-band '01]

There must be a real strange hook in their algorithm for the NET for this to be the case:

Tennessee NET 10
Quad 1....1-2
Quad 2....1-0
Quad 3....1-0
Quad 4....5-0
SOS....131

Xavier NET 11
Quad 1....3-1
Quad 2....2-0
Quad 3....2-0
Quad 4....4-0
SOS....17

They should have been penalized further for their ugly loss against Texas Tech at MSG. It made Cincy-Pitt at the Jimmy V Classic look like a Monet by comparison.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Up 5 spots to #17 in the AP. #21 in coaches.

Wednesday is #14 vs #17.

[xukeith]

Up 5 spots to #17 in the AP. #21 in coaches.

Wednesday is #14 vs #17.

I am surprised X improved many spots for a win vs a bottom Butler team. I will take it but reality comes Wednesday.

[GoMuskies]

I saw USC was #5 in the new poll, and I had no idea they were that good. Then I looked at the schedule and realized they haven't played a soul. So maybe they're good, and maybe not.

[D-West & PO-Z]

#20 in the AP poll

[noteggs]

Dropped to 21 in AP. But now we’ve been beaten by 3 top 25 teams as Marquette moves to 22.

[Xuperman]

Dropped to 21 in AP. But now we’ve been beaten by 3 top 25 teams as Marquette moves to 22.

Conversely, we now have beaten 2......many opportunities to flip that positive. 20% of AP top 25 now BEast.

[Xuperman]

Dropped to 21 in AP. But now we’ve been beaten by 3 top 25 teams as Marquette moves to 22.

Also, X remains top 20 NET. A very nice spot to be.....for now. From what I can tell there is 6 more Quad 1 opportunities left in the regular season.

BTW, Can someone post the basic criteria that constitutes a Quad 1 win? If we beat a team that was Quad 2 at the time, and that team moves up to Quad 1 status, would that then be a Quad 1 win? What about vice versa? Use the Creighton win as an example please. Maybe touch on the UC win as well. I don't know how much room they have to climb, but still 2 left vs Houston.

[noteggs]

Also, X remains top 20 NET. A very nice spot to be.....for now. From what I can tell there is 6 more Quad 1 opportunities left in the regular season.

BTW, Can someone post the basic criteria that constitutes a Quad 1 win? If we beat a team that was Quad 2 at the time, and that team moves up to Quad 1 status, would that then be a Quad 1 win? What about vice versa? Use the Creighton win as an example please. Maybe touch on the UC win as well. I don't know how much room they have to climb, but still 2 left vs Houston.

This should be everything you’re looking for…

https://bracketologists.com/team/xavier-musketeers

Creighton example: they’re currently ranked 52 so that puts solidly in the tier 2 win (31-75)

[paulxu]

Thanks for that site.

Still a little confused...if someone is in Quad 2 when you play them and win, and subsequently moves to Quad 3....does that become a Quad 3 win or stay recorded as a Quad 2?

[noteggs]

Thanks for that site.

Still a little confused...if someone is in Quad 2 when you play them and win, and subsequently moves to Quad 3....does that become a Quad 3 win or stay recorded as a Quad 2?

Yes quads can move up or down depending on your opponent’s current NET ranking.

Edit: For example Norfolk State currently has 169 NET and Quad 4 win for us. If they get to 160, it will turn into a Quad 3 win.

[X-band '01]

Cincinnati is more of an example of a win that will waffle between Quad 2 and Quad 3 throughout the season. The aforementioned Creighton team is going to likely be a Quad-2 win at home and a Quad-1 win should Xavier beat the Bluejays in Omaha. I'm not holding my breath on that happening, but it is a more winnable game when you compare it to a trip to Marquette, for example.

Assuming Xavier were to beat Providence this week, that one could potentially waffle between Quad-1 and Quad-2 depending on where Providence ranks. The Friars still have a lot of tough games to play themselves in the Big East.

[MADXSTER]

Thanks for that site.

Still a little confused...if someone is in Quad 2 when you play them and win, and subsequently moves to Quad 3....does that become a Quad 3 win or stay recorded as a Quad 2?

All Quad wins/losses can change based on if you are playing at home vs away vs neutral court. If you play a team at home and win it could be a Quad 2 win. Play the same team but at their court(all things being the same) and it could be a Quad 1 win.

[xuphan]

This should be everything you’re looking for…

https://bracketologists.com/team/xavier-musketeers

Creighton example: they’re currently ranked 52 so that puts solidly in the tier 2 win (31-75)

Thanks for the link! Hopeful the line graph doesn’t continue to plummet.

[markchal]

All Quad wins/losses can change based on if you are playing at home vs away vs neutral court. If you play a team at home and win it could be a Quad 2 win. Play the same team but at their court(all things being the same) and it could be a Quad 1 win.

isn't the question more if we beat a team at home (like Ohio St) when they are top 25 and are a Q1 win...but then they fall apart later int he year and finish around 50-60, would they still be a Q1 win because of WHEN we beat them, or is it based on how the team finishes..(pretty sure it's the latter).

[D-West & PO-Z]

isn't the question more if we beat a team at home (like Ohio St) when they are top 25 and are a Q1 win...but then they fall apart later int he year and finish around 50-60, would they still be a Q1 win because of WHEN we beat them, or is it based on how the team finishes..(pretty sure it's the latter).

How the team finishes.

[D-West & PO-Z]

We remain at #21 in the AP poll.

5 BE teams still ranked, all rising except for us remaining at 21 and Marquette dropping 2 spots.

[GoMuskies]

The Big East is dominating the bottom half of the top 25. I could definitely see the Big East having 4 Sweet Sixteen teams and no Elite Eight teams. Not ideal, but I wouldn't be mad (particularly if we were one of the Sweet Sixteen teams!).

[GIMMFD]

The Big East is dominating the bottom half of the top 25. I could definitely see the Big East having 4 Sweet Sixteen teams and no Elite Eight teams. Not ideal, but I wouldn't be mad (particularly if we were one of the Sweet Sixteen teams!).

We're winning the National Championship, what do you mean??? ;)

[XUGRAD80]

We're winning the National Championship, what do you mean??? ;)

Have to say this…..after seeing UC football make the playoffs and the Bengals going to the Super Bowl, NOTHING that X does this season would shock me. Could the Reds make the World Series? Now THAT would shock me!

[muskiefan82]

Have to say this…..after seeing UC football make the playoffs and the Bengals going to the Super Bowl, NOTHING that X does this season would shock me. Could the Reds make the World Series? Now THAT would shock me!

No, FC Cincinnati putting a winning team on the pitch would be shocking.

[XUGRAD80]

No, FC Cincinnati putting a winning team on the pitch would be shocking.

Presently, that’s true.

The crazy thing about FC is that so many of us that played HS soccer long ago, played rec leagues later in life, and had kids play rec and/or HS aren’t really fans. Our kids are, but not so much us. I’ve only been to like 2 games during their whole existence and those were free tickets. Don’t know what it is but they really haven’t captured the interest of lots of “older” soccer fans. I’d much rather go to a Xavier soccer game than an FC one.

[drudy23]

I think win or lose, the soccer fans are the soccer fans.

If they actually started winning, I likely still wouldn't go, unless someone offered me a ticket to a suite. Then I would eat and drink more than I would watch the soccer game.

[muskiefan82]

FC was fun when it was a fun night, at Nippert, for college kids and the younger crowd. I was worried when they moved to the MLS, got their own stadium, and changed to a monetary choice for your entertainment $$ instead of something fun to do where the team winning was just icing. I have only been to 2 games as well and it was fun, but not the choice I will make for my sports entertainment. And I played soccer too, but it just doesn't push the right buttons. I guess we'll see long term if there is a future for them.

[GoMuskies]

MLS is still glorified minor leagues, which is weird for Americans. We're used to having the top pro leagues in the sports we care about. I enjoy going to minor league baseball games. It's fun, but it's hard for most people to get too invested in the winning and losing of minor league teams.

[XUGRAD80]

MLS is still glorified minor leagues, which is weird for Americans. We're used to having the top pro leagues in the sports we care about. I enjoy going to minor league baseball games. It's fun, but it's hard for most people to get too invested in the winning and losing of minor league teams.

Yeah mi or league baseball is fun, but it’s not something that most people get emotionally attached to. It was a fun (and cheap) night out with the wife and kids when they were young. FC was like that when they played at Nippert, but I’ve really no desire to go watch them on any sort of regular basis.


Back to the original discussion. The BE is pretty balanced and thus we have teams bearing each other up. This will certainly effect the rankings of the top 5-6 teams. But it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if a couple of BE schools made it into the sweet 16 and then the elite 8.

[xubrew]

MLS is still glorified minor leagues, which is weird for Americans. We're used to having the top pro leagues in the sports we care about. I enjoy going to minor league baseball games. It's fun, but it's hard for most people to get too invested in the winning and losing of minor league teams.

I've been a soccer fan my whole life. I think I actually like it more than college basketball.

While being a glorified minor league is weird for most Americans, the fact that soccer is popular at all is still weird to me. It used to be that you could get into virtually any (home) World Cup Qualifier for very little money on the day of the game. I remember the Cincinnati Kings from the USL and how no one was ever sure exactly where in Cincinnati they'd be playing that weekend. I always said it was a garage band sport. The band won't fill arenas or stadiums and will only be in small clubs, but if you go to that small club, the people who are at the show are as into it as anyone could possibly be into anything. I still don't understand how or why the sport became as popular as it currently is.

And yes, the MLS is a glorified minor league with a smattering of top level players here and there, but it's still the highest level and most popular domestic league that has ever existed in my lifetime and it's not even close. How did that happen??

Anyway, back to hte rankings. Murray State up to #27 in the AP poll!!

[Xville]

I was curious to see attendance figures so here ya go:

https://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2021-mls-attendance/

Seems to be on solid footing even with Covid, and team being pretty horrible.

I did see back in 2018 or maybe it was 19…averaged 25k so down from that.


Anyways, 5 big East teams is pretty awesome. 6 or 7 in the tourney would be a whole lot of fun….the conference tournament is going to be incredible…..one month until March!!!!

[GoMuskies]

Go Racers! Matt McMahon to Louisville?

[GIMMFD]

I've been a soccer fan my whole life. I think I actually like it more than college basketball.

While being a glorified minor league is weird for most Americans, the fact that soccer is popular at all is still weird to me. It used to be that you could get into virtually any (home) World Cup Qualifier for very little money on the day of the game. I remember the Cincinnati Kings from the USL and how no one was ever sure exactly where in Cincinnati they'd be playing that weekend. I always said it was a garage band sport. The band won't fill arenas or stadiums and will only be in small clubs, but if you go to that small club, the people who are at the show are as into it as anyone could possibly be into anything. I still don't understand how or why the sport became as popular as it currently is.

And yes, the MLS is a glorified minor league with a smattering of top level players here and there, but it's still the highest level and most popular domestic league that has ever existed in my lifetime and it's not even close. How did that happen??

Anyway, back to hte rankings. Murray State up to #27 in the AP poll!!

The level in the MLS is improving, you see it by the guys signing over to relatively good clubs in Europe. Klinsmann for all his shortcomings as national team manager was in a genius in getting the youth academies set up in America like over in Europe, which contributes to the young stars we have right now that are playing abroad at prestigious clubs and leagues. The MLS will never be a top league in the world, it's impossible, too much history and what not that Europe's clubs have, and hell even South America, etc. But it's not as bad as it was in the beginning. The FC Cincinnati thing is a whole different dynamic tbh.

EDIT: I will say, the World Cup being in America when our guys should be peaking will be an absolute joy to watch if the development continues.. did Cinci get the nod to host a game?? I feel like a World Cup game there would be so amazing.

But Murray State and Auburn, only two teams in the country with 20 wins.

[XU 87]

X's 5 losses this this year are all against teams currently in the top 25.

[GoMuskies]

Iowa State is going to lose their next three in a row and be out of the rankings and on the Bubble.

May this prediction go as well as MOR's big tease roller coaster prediction!

[Xuperman]

The ALL POWERFUL NET Rankings are a twisted mess. This from a Providence perspective.

PC- 19-2, 10-2 in Q 1/2, rank 29.
TT- 17-5, 8-5 in Q 1/2, rank TEN! Lost to PC.
XU- 15-5, 9-5 in Q 1/2, rank 18. Lost to PC.
UW- 17-3, 10-3 in Q 1/2, rank 21, Lost to PC.
MU- 15-7, 8-6 in Q 1/2, rank 27, Lost to PC + Q 3 loss.

Here are the real f'd up numbers.
UH- 18-2, 4-2 in Q 1/2, rank TWO! ZERO Q 1 wins...0-2
SMC- 16-4, 2-7 in Q 1/2, rank 23
Murray- 17-2, 3-1 in Q 1/2, rank 26....Q 3 loss!

I just can't make sense of it. There must be a margin of victory component, otherwise it simply is not close to accurate. Can someone explain why it seems so flawed?

[paulxu]

Could be SOS.

XU SOS 5, OOC SOS 40
Prov SOS 24, OOC SOS 62

[Xuperman]

Could be SOS.

XU SOS 5, OOC SOS 40
Prov SOS 24, OOC SOS 62

How would that explain Murray State's ranking?

[GoMuskies]

Murray State is awesome.

[paulxu]

Maybe they really weight the OOC number. Murray State's is 11.

[GoMuskies]

The Massey Composite has Murray #34, so the Net probably does overrate them a bit, but not by too much.

[Xville]

Iowa State is going to lose their next three in a row and be out of the rankings and on the Bubble.

May this prediction go as well as MOR's big tease roller coaster prediction!

Iowa State looked like piss last night...they have looked like that a few times this season where they just cant find a way to score. Big 12 is tough.

[Xville]

The ALL POWERFUL NET Rankings are a twisted mess. This from a Providence perspective.

PC- 19-2, 10-2 in Q 1/2, rank 29.
TT- 17-5, 8-5 in Q 1/2, rank TEN! Lost to PC.
XU- 15-5, 9-5 in Q 1/2, rank 18. Lost to PC.
UW- 17-3, 10-3 in Q 1/2, rank 21, Lost to PC.
MU- 15-7, 8-6 in Q 1/2, rank 27, Lost to PC + Q 3 loss.

Here are the real f'd up numbers.
UH- 18-2, 4-2 in Q 1/2, rank TWO! ZERO Q 1 wins...0-2
SMC- 16-4, 2-7 in Q 1/2, rank 23
Murray- 17-2, 3-1 in Q 1/2, rank 26....Q 3 loss!

I just can't make sense of it. There must be a margin of victory component, otherwise it simply is not close to accurate. Can someone explain why it seems so flawed?


Because it was developed by the NCAA? The only thing that would have been worse is if ESPN developed it.

[Xuperman]

Maybe they really weight the OOC number. Murray State's is 11.

??? Their OOC number at 11 is equally ridiculous. They got drilled @ Auburn and a 2 pt W @ Memphis....that's it. The rest is mediocre at best.

[Xuperman]

[/B]


Because it was developed by the NCAA? The only thing that would have been worse is if ESPN developed it.

Correct in both instances!

[xukeith]

I remember the good old A10 days, where we would often criticize teams from "power" conferences and their .500 records and weak OOC SOSs.

[D-West & PO-Z]

[/B]


Because it was developed by the NCAA? The only thing that would have been worse is if ESPN developed it.

Yeah, like the ESPN BPI that has 3 teams from the ACC in the top 28, 4 in the top 38, and 5 in the top 50, lmao.

[xubrew]

The ALL POWERFUL NET Rankings are a twisted mess. This from a Providence perspective.

PC- 19-2, 10-2 in Q 1/2, rank 29.
TT- 17-5, 8-5 in Q 1/2, rank TEN! Lost to PC.
XU- 15-5, 9-5 in Q 1/2, rank 18. Lost to PC.
UW- 17-3, 10-3 in Q 1/2, rank 21, Lost to PC.
MU- 15-7, 8-6 in Q 1/2, rank 27, Lost to PC + Q 3 loss.

Here are the real f'd up numbers.
UH- 18-2, 4-2 in Q 1/2, rank TWO! ZERO Q 1 wins...0-2
SMC- 16-4, 2-7 in Q 1/2, rank 23
Murray- 17-2, 3-1 in Q 1/2, rank 26....Q 3 loss!

I just can't make sense of it. There must be a margin of victory component, otherwise it simply is not close to accurate. Can someone explain why it seems so flawed?


Could be SOS.

XU SOS 5, OOC SOS 40
Prov SOS 24, OOC SOS 62

It's the predictive metrics, particularly the adjusted efficiency rankings.

The NET, like any computer ranking, is really just a general indicator. Its primary function is to decide how things are sorted onto a page. That's really the peak of its importance, so there is no reason to be THAT alarmed when something seems a little out of whack.

In the SPECIFIC case of Providence, their merit rankings are through the roof because of the teams they've beaten. Their KPI is 5th, their Strength of Record is 2nd, their RPI is 3rd.

But, their efficiency ratings are lower because every single one of their top 100 wins, even the home games, have been by 5pts or less. Okay, that's not the EXACT reason, but it is a strong indicator of the exact reason. Their efficiency and adjusted efficiency numbers aren't the same as...say...Murray State (who someone else mentioned) who is just blowing team after team after team off the floor. If you go to Belmont, who otherwise hasn't lost at home, and blow them out like Murray did, your efficiency and adjusted efficiency ratings go through the roof.

EDIT: The NET is (basically) a hybrid of merit rankings mixed with predictive/efficiency ratings. The best way to game the NET is to go on the road against the good teams from one bid leagues that barely ever lose at home, and blow them off the floor. If Xavier were to go to...say...Cleveland State, or Toledo, or Ohio U, and win by double digits, their NET would skyrocket.

[Xuperman]

The NET is (basically) a hybrid of merit rankings mixed with predictive/efficiency ratings. The best way to game the NET is to go on the road against the good teams from one bid leagues that barely ever lose at home, and blow them off the floor. If Xavier were to go to...say...Cleveland State, or Toledo, or Ohio U, and win by double digits, their NET would skyrocket.

1st off, your full post was excellent and fairly easy to understand.....thanks!

However, to your last point, X did get a double digit win, on the road, vs a team that rarely loses at home. Not a Cleveland St or Toledo.....Creighton. Our NET barely moved, let alone skyrocket. Logic tells me that's probably because there is not much room to move up from #19.

BTW- Take a look at the HUGE jump in NET that Arkansas made yesterday. Yes they destroyed Georgia at their place, but c'mon, it's Georgia! NET has to put significant weight into MOV regardless of opponent.

[xubrew]

1st off, your full post was excellent and fairly easy to understand.....thanks!

However, to your last point, X did get a double digit win, on the road, vs a team that rarely loses at home. Not a Cleveland St or Toledo.....Creighton. Our NET barely moved, let alone skyrocket. Logic tells me that's probably because there is not much room to move up from #19.

BTW- Take a look at the HUGE jump in NET that Arkansas made yesterday. Yes they destroyed Georgia at their place, but c'mon, it's Georgia! NET has to put significant weight into MOV regardless of opponent.

Good questions. I'll admit to just saying that I'm not entirely sure, and I don't really know if I want to comb through it to figure out what happened.

Georgia absolutely stinks. Even at home they're just 6-8. They probably haven't been blown out like that at home too many times, but still that probably wasn't the biggest thing that pushed Arkansas forward. It could have been something that other previous opponents (or several of them) did that week.

I might be misleading you here, so let me try and clarify...

Basic offensive and defensive efficiency ratings are just that. It's the number of points divided by the number of possessions. It's as simple as a batting average in baseball. Also like a batting average in baseball it really doesn't even look specifically at who won or lost a game, but rather how many points they scored on how many possessions, and how many points they gave up on how many possessions the other team had.

An ADJUSTED efficiency rating takes into account the strength of the teams you're playing. The best way I can describe it is if a baseball batting average were adjusted to account for how good (or bad) the ERA's of the pitchers were. I have the exact formula somewhere that the NCAA uses to adjust it, but I don't remember exactly what it is off the top of my head. I do know that they look at both the team and whether it's home, away, or neutral when they adjust it.

The NET (for whatever reason) uses both the basic efficiency and adjusted efficiency ratings in their formula, and neither formula even factors in whether a team actually won or lost.

But, it's a hybrid. They also factor in strength of schedule, strength of wins (which includes whether or not a game was played home or road), and other merit rankings.


I guess what I'm saying is that for me personally, there are just too many things to look at to try and figure out why a specific team moved way up, or didn't move up, or moved down. Sometimes I can look at it like with Providence and Murray State and be pretty sure what happened. In the case of Arkansas, I don't really know. It could be something that is completely out of sight and out of mind. In the case of Xavier, teams like Norfolk State and Morehead State, who have been stringing together a ton of wins lately both at home and on the road, could be boosting the NET. No one would ever think to even look at those teams because they were just blah games at the time that were forgotten as soon as they were over.

But...again...it really is just a sorting tool. If hte committee is doing it's job, and meeting every week to go overall all the teams, they (should) know who's good and who isn't and the NET really won't (or shouldn't) be a deciding factor.

[xubrew]

Pretty sure Murray State will get into the AP poll today. I don't think they're actually one of the 25 best teams, but they are definitely one of the 35-40 best teams and they will have certainly earned the ranking.

[GoMuskies]

I just hope they win out in the regular season so that if they slip up in the OVC Tournament they stiill get into the Big Dance. They definitely deserve it.

[xubrew]

I just hope they win out in the regular season so that if they slip up in the OVC Tournament they stiill get into the Big Dance. They definitely deserve it.

COMPLETELY agree. They may actually have one strike left and can drop a regular season game and a conference tournament game.

[Lloyd Braun]

Xavier #25 in AP poll… ha

[D-West & PO-Z]

Xavier #25 in AP poll… ha

Not completely shocked. The bottom of the top 25 isn't all that great.

[GoMuskies]

Apparently there are 24 good teams this year.

[paulxu]

I wonder how many other teams in the Top 25 have fan bases who want their coach to be fired?

[noteggs]

I wonder how many other teams in the Top 25 have fan bases who want their coach to be fired?

Think they’ve been there 10 weeks to boot. Wonder how many times we’ve done that in last 30 years?

Edit: of course we have just legitimately wondering how many times and who was at the helm.

[Masterofreality]

Out of the 25 in Coaches Poll.
(27th)

[paulxu]

Win at home:
XU Net goes down 1 to 22
UConn Net goes up 1 to 17

[xukeith]

Now 5 Quad 1 wins. Only 9 teams have more

[XUGRAD80]

Dropped out of the top 25 this week. Now 27th. Marquette is 26th.

[Masterofreality]

Dropped out of the top 25 this week. Now 27th. Marquette is 26th.

Yet moved up to 20 in the NCAA NET.
I still think the Big East is discounted by the press.

[IM4X]

Dropped out of the top 25 this week. Now 27th. Marquette is 26th.

At least it should help them stay hungry and keep playing hard.

[GoMuskies]

We're still hanging in with 2 votes for the AP poll this week. I suspect a 2-0 week would have us back at #24 or #25.

[GoMuskies]

Jeff Sagarin actually ranks Xavier 5 spots ahead of Providence in his normal rankings, and in his predictor rankings has us as a one point dog on a neutral court. So if the spread is more than 4.5 or 5 on Wednesday, there's actually some value in Xavier.

[Masterofreality]

After last night:

26 in the NET
35 in KenPom
39 in TRank

[GoMuskies]

Sagarin:

Xavier 28
Providence 31

Sagarin's "Recent" Ranking:

Providence 20
Xavier......79

Sagarin also has #1 Gonzaga a staggering 3.5 points better than #2 Arizona.

[Masterofreality]

This morning:
NCAA NET: 35 (Dropped 10 overnight)
Kenpom 47
TRank: 54

Umm, we are rapidly sliding off even the bubble. Death comes slowly.

[GoMuskies]

Xavier is down to #108 in Sagarin's recent rankings. Pretty awful.

[X-man]

Xavier is down to #108 in Sagarin's recent rankings. Pretty awful.

You mean #36, don't you? Link: https://sagarin.usatoday.com/2022-2/college-basketball-team-ratings-2021-22/

[whopper]

thank God..as miserable as this is (and i live in Connecticut with many UConn friends(i am a 1977 grad), Providence and Villanova friends i am feeling pretty blue with my group texts..

[GoMuskies]

You mean #36, don't you? Link: https://sagarin.usatoday.com/2022-2/college-basketball-team-ratings-2021-22/

Go down to Xavier at #36 and look right a few columns.

[UCGRAD4X]

How good is that Ohno State win looking about now?

[Masterofreality]

How good is that Ohno State win looking about now?

Xavier dropped to NET 36 from 35 without even playing.
Death under Steele is like Jeffrey Dahmer.

[xucub]

FWIW, Jerry Palm has just listed his new bracket. X is 10 seed playing Michigan State. We keep getting closer to falling out.

[Xville]

Bracket matrix and lunardi have x as a 9. I think x needs 2 wins to get in even in the pig.

[UCGRAD4X]

FWIW, Jerry Palm has just listed his new bracket. X is 10 seed playing Michigan State. We keep getting closer to falling out.

YUP! Can't really get any lower as an at-large.

[Masterofreality]

YUP! Can't really get any lower as an at-large.

Mike DeCoursey (paid by Fox) just moved us to an 11. BOTTOM!!!

[Masterofreality]

Xavier is now 39 in NCAA NET
54 in KenPom
58 in TRank

Not great Bob

[GoMuskies]

#41 Sagarin. #119 in Sagarin's Recent rating.

[Masterofreality]

Today.
35 NCAA NET
51 KenPom
51 TRank
Work to do