Paying college athletes, unions, etc...

[principal]

I tend to side with not paying college athletes beyond paying for school, room, board, etc. I am not completely opposed to giving them some sort of basic wage that they might otherwise earn if they didn't spend their time playing basketball. And though I don't like the idea of paying college athletes "what they are worth", I can see the argument that it is unjust that they earn millions and millions of dollars for their respective schools and are not financially compensated for doing so. With that said, for those who are pro paying college athletes, does anyone think the following is a good idea? Do you think this is good for the college game?

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/31521100/congressional-bill-introduced-allow-college-athletes-form-unions-become-employees

My gut reaction to the above is that this ruins college sports, subjectively for me, and perhaps objectively, in as much as it becomes something completely different than what it has been historically. Maybe I'm old fashioned, or being overly idealistic, or maybe I have some other hang-up of which I am unaware, but I do not like the idea. I would prefer to take all of the athletes who are capable of making boat loads of money and putting them in a separate league (maybe like the G-League or maybe something different). If they want to make money they should have the right to get market value. On the other hand, if they want to go to school then they should go to school. An education is (at least potentially) worth millions more than what most college athletes will ever make for their playing skills. A good education (which is almost impossible to find in the world today, but I will save this rant for another day) is invaluable, it is priceless. But there I go being overly idealistic again.

Another consideration is this - to what degree does the athlete make the university versus the university making the athlete? It is, of course, both. There is a reason the top players go to Duke, Kentucky, etc...the visibility, the likelihood of winning, making a name for oneself, etc, is far greater at some schools than others. It isn't just a one way street - if you take away the Duke brand, the Kansas brand, etc, at least right now there is no market for these kids, the G-League doesn't pay a whole lot. But it could be argued that if these kids went straight to the G-League, thereby depleting the college game of talent, the G-League would pay better. I believe this is true, but I don't believe it would begin to pay athletes what they are supposedly earning for their respective schools. People are irrationally vested in the success of their alma mater, or the local team, or the team they grew up watching. They spend millions of dollars, the wealthy alumni spend millions on donations, stadiums, etc, because they love the school, not because they love a particular player. All of that money would stop flowing if these same kids went to the G-League. So what is the true value of a college football or basketball player? No doubt the product makes money - people are crazy for college football and basketball. But is the money made because of the loyalty to the brand or because of the athletes attending the school? It is both, of course, but who needs who more? If the G-League started pulling all of the top talent, would college athletics fold or would DII become the new DI? And when it does, what happens to these new DI players? Should they be compensated? There wouldn't be a market for them outside of college athletics - the G-League's DII wouldn't be very lucrative.

I'm thinking out loud here because I really don't like what is being proposed above. I like watching X play basketball, I ride the emotional rollercoaster with the team each year (which is kind of silly if you really think about it), but unionizing everything would really cause me to take a huge step back and reconsider how vested I want to be in what, to me, becomes almost pure product with very little heart and soul left.

Principal

[94GRAD]

I'm not opposed to players unionizing or being paid for their services, the schools would figure out a way for them to keep their chunk of the pie. But if they want to be considered employees, they sure as hell better have to pay taxes on their wages!!!

[muskiefan82]

I get it. I do. I just hate that it seems like the value of a fully paid education is somehow lessened by this. If you pay for your kids to go to college, it is hard to understand why the value being given to an athlete isn't enough. It is sad it has reached this point because I really do think if the NCAA had done something, anything, before now, it would not have reached this point. Now, college sports sit on the edge of the cliff. I hope it doesn't go over and plummet to its death

[bjf123]

I’m not crazy about paying the players, but I think you can make an argument for them being paid for companies making money off their name, image, and likeness.

Rocky Boiman on WLW made a good point about it, though. You could get some dissension in the locker room when you’ve got the star QB getting a bunch money while the o-line that’s making him look good gets squat. Got to remember these are still kids.


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[Drew]

Recruiting tracks 1:1 with athletic budget. Only difference this would make is players finally getting a piece of the pie.

[Drew]

Recruiting tracks 1:1 with athletic budget. Only difference this would make is players finally getting a piece of the pie.

I guess I will give my thoughts on the "spirit" of the game. Everytime I have made more money in my life my life has gotten better. So I don't quite understand the fetishization of someone not getting paid. Ain't yall feel a little sick when a player goes down and their career might be over? Or them having to leave the country to make a buck? Meanwhile, coaches and everyone else are cashing big ass checks. Don't see the virtue in keeping players from the money and letting everyone else eat.

[xu82]

I guess I will give my thoughts on the "spirit" of the game. Everytime I have made more money in my life my life has gotten better. So I don't quite understand the fetishization of someone not getting paid. Ain't yall feel a little sick when a player goes down and their career might be over? Or them having to leave the country to make a buck? Meanwhile, coaches and everyone else are cashing big ass checks. Don't see the virtue in keeping players from the money and letting everyone else eat.

Just a few thoughts about your thoughts:

* I don’t mind the players being able to transfer or make money, but I will care less about college hoops in general and X hoops in particular.

* There should be money available to pay for insurance against injury.

* If they need to leave the country to make money, they should have been better. The best can stay here and make money. LOTS of money. IF they are good enough.

* Money isn’t everything. I’d be twice as happy on half the money if we had not moved to Atlanta. Money isn’t everything, but if you have enough you can make the changes you need down the road.

[Drew]

Just a few thoughts about your thoughts:

* I don’t mind the players being able to transfer or make money, but I will care less about college hoops in general and X hoops in particular.

* There should be money available to pay for insurance against injury.

* If they need to leave the country to make money, they should have been better. The best can stay here and make money. LOTS of money. IF they are good enough.

* Money isn’t everything. I’d be twice as happy on half the money if we had not moved to Atlanta. Money isn’t everything, but if you have enough you can make the changes you need down the road.

- You may care less, I am the opposite. I enjoy seeing people making money. As far as some kind of ritual where they can't enjoy the fruits of the labor until after college. I just don't see it. For most, playing in Cintas will be the peak of their athletics career. Why not align the finances with that?

- Having money isn't everything, not having it is. All the more reason to balance the scales. I would sleep ok if the coaches paychecks went from 7 to 6 figures and players went from 0 to 5.

[xu82]

- You may care less, I am the opposite. I enjoy seeing people making money. As far as some kind of ritual where they can't enjoy the fruits of the labor until after college. I just don't see it. For most, playing in Cintas will be the peak of their athletics career. Why not align the finances with that?

- Having money isn't everything, not having it is. All the more reason to balance the scales. I would sleep ok if the coaches paychecks went from 7 to 6 figures and players went from 0 to 5.

Maybe I didn’t express myself well. I don’t like the idea of complete roster transition every season. I like seeing guys come in and develop over the course of a 3-4 year career. It’s more pleasurable for me, and that is what I will pay to see.

I’ll be less financially involved if they keep messing this up, as I’m sure will be the case with others. Mess it up, shrink the pond they all drink from.

Getting a degree is a path to earning a living. The vast majority of them will not make a living playing basketball. Even those who do will only do so for a few years.

The coaches who get the BIG bucks get them because they can recruit. It will be hard to pay everybody.


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[xu82]

- You may care less, I am the opposite. I enjoy seeing people making money. As far as some kind of ritual where they can't enjoy the fruits of the labor until after college. I just don't see it. For most, playing in Cintas will be the peak of their athletics career. Why not align the finances with that?

- Having money isn't everything, not having it is. All the more reason to balance the scales. I would sleep ok if the coaches paychecks went from 7 to 6 figures and players went from 0 to 5.

So, they are one step ahead of a high school player? Should we pay them, too? Be the best, make the most. Earn it, or find another path.

[Drew]

So, they are one step ahead of a high school player? Should we pay them, too? Be the best, make the most. Earn it, or find another path.

I believe in the free market. If someone wants to pay a high school athlete let them. They can't because of the NCAA.

Also, I hate the transfer restrictions and absolutely prefer to see freshmen become seniors over transfers.

[Xavier]

It almost has to be capped- each team has X amount of dollars to give. Maybe you spend it on 4 great guys or try and spread it out. If it is uncapped and just pay whatever, schools like Xavier won't be able to keep up. Obviously I don't think that will happen.

[STL_XUfan]

It almost has to be capped- each team has X amount of dollars to give. Maybe you spend it on 4 great guys or try and spread it out. If it is uncapped and just pay whatever, schools like Xavier won't be able to keep up. Obviously I don't think that will happen.
I somewhat disagree that Xavier wouldn’t be able to keep up, since we are private and don’t necessarily have to answer to the public. I think large public schools will come under fire pretty quickly over exorbitant payments to students. (Ok probably not Alabama, where the legislature would mandate a floor on payments)

[Final4]

It almost has to be capped- each team has X amount of dollars to give. Maybe you spend it on 4 great guys or try and spread it out. If it is uncapped and just pay whatever, schools like Xavier won't be able to keep up. Obviously I don't think that will happen.

This really confuses me when I read something like this. I very well could be mistaken but my understanding is the discussion surrounds players, on their own, securing compensation from outside entities for the use of their NIL; endorsements, commercials, etc. The school would not be paying the player. Am I mistaken?

[Xavier]

This really confuses me when I read something like this. I very well could be mistaken but my understanding is the discussion surrounds players, on their own, securing compensation from outside entities for the use of their NIL; endorsements, commercials, etc. The school would not be paying the player. Am I mistaken?

I was sort of responding to Drew about the free market stuff. Even so- I absolutely see schools asking donors to pay kids to come to the school (its obviously already happening, but now it will be allowed). So yes, even if its just the NIL payments allowed, bigger schools have a much bigger advantage.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Just a few thoughts about your thoughts:

* There should be money available to pay for insurance against injury.



I don't think I could agree with the above anymore than I do now. I think D1 athletes should receive medical insurance free of any payments whatsoever. That goes from Football down to Lacrosse.

That should be the first thing that gets changed.

[bjf123]

I don't think I could agree with the above anymore than I do now. I think D1 athletes should receive medical insurance free of any payments whatsoever. That goes from Football down to Lacrosse.

That should be the first thing that gets changed.

At least for any injuries incurred as a result of their sport. If they happen to fall and break their arm on vacation during the summer, that should be on mom’s or dad’s insurance, assuming mom or dad have coverage.


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[Drew]

Honest question for those who support the income restrictions on athletes, why are the coaches treated differently? Shouldn't they have to be professors making a professors salary?

[principal]

Honest question for those who support the income restrictions on athletes, why are the coaches treated differently? Shouldn't they have to be professors making a professors salary?

College professors and coaches are employees. As such, their salary is market driven. College athletes are students, not employees, as such they are not paid, therefore their compensation is not market driven. This is the whole question - should college athletes, who are students, not employees, be treated like students or like employees.

I have less problem with athletes making money based on their NIL value and more problem with them being paid by the university.

Principal

[principal]

This really confuses me when I read something like this. I very well could be mistaken but my understanding is the discussion surrounds players, on their own, securing compensation from outside entities for the use of their NIL; endorsements, commercials, etc. The school would not be paying the player. Am I mistaken?

Are you guys not reading the article that was posted? Here’s the headline:

“Congressional bill introduced would allow college athletes to form unions, become employees”

And here’s the first line from the article:

“College athletes would be able to form players' unions and would be considered employees of their schools if a new Congressional bill introduced Thursday morning is passed into law.”

This is what I’m asking about. I’m not asking about whether or not college athletes should be paid for their NIL value. I’m asking do you think it’s good for the sport if they become employees and can form unions? My initial reaction is this would destroy college athletics.

Principal

[xu82]

Are you guys not reading the article that was posted? Here’s the headline:

“Congressional bill introduced would allow college athletes to form unions, become employees”

And here’s the first line from the article:

“College athletes would be able to form players' unions and would be considered employees of their schools if a new Congressional bill introduced Thursday morning is passed into law.”

This is what I’m asking about. I’m not asking about whether or not college athletes should be paid for their NIL value. I’m asking do you think it’s good for the sport if they become employees and can form unions? My initial reaction is this would destroy college athletics.

Principal

Personally, I would have far less interest. I stopped watching the NBA years ago. College hoop interest would diminish in much the same way. They will do as they choose, and that’s fine, but I will vote with my feet (and my wallet).

[Drew]

This topic exhausts because it makes no sense to me. I will just leave it at this. Its pretty blatantly immoral what is going on and if you disagree with that then it is what it is. Next time a player goes down and the crowd goes quiet wondering if hes ok, just remember "i'm glad his bank account is empty at least."

And the coaches/ad's aren't your friends. Never once have they turned down an opportunity to gouge you for more $$$.

[xu82]

This topic exhausts because it makes no sense to me. I will just leave it at this. Its pretty blatantly immoral what is going on and if you disagree with that then it is what it is. Next time a player goes down and the crowd goes quiet wondering if hes ok, just remember "i'm glad his bank account is empty at least."

And the coaches/ad's aren't your friends. Never once have they turned down an opportunity to gouge you for more $$$.

Blatantly immoral? My freshman roommate was a nice guy on the Xavier swim team. He was just a student who was a good swimmer in high school. Sophomore year my roommate was on the golf team. He was a walk-on who thought it might be fun. Should they have been paid? The swimmer might have gotten a little financial aid, but he was just a student who swam.

Should they get money for participating in programs that actually COST the school money? Should they raise my tuition to pay them, or should I just hand them money myself.

You want to pay people, so please tell us where that money is going to come from. College costs FAR too much already. It’s INSANE what it costs without paying students who are pursuing their hobby! You are welcome to fund them if you feel so strongly, I’ll pass.

I’m all for insurance and health care, etc. The player knows the risks, they have been playing the game their entire lives, and they made the choice.

[SM#24]

This topic exhausts because it makes no sense to me. I will just leave it at this. Its pretty blatantly immoral what is going on and if you disagree with that then it is what it is. Next time a player goes down and the crowd goes quiet wondering if hes ok, just remember "i'm glad his bank account is empty at least."

And the coaches/ad's aren't your friends. Never once have they turned down an opportunity to gouge you for more $$$.
This is what makes no sense to me. How is it immoral ? If it is that bad, why don’t players just pass ? “No thank you for your scholarship offer. No thank you on having to go to school. No thank you on all the stupid rules. No thank you for the experience.” Just pass if it’s that bad.
I can’t think of any better deal in life for an 18yo that a full ride D1 sports scholarship.
If you get hurt, don’t you still have a college degree to fall back on ?

I get the argument for outside NIL compensation, but once that goes through, you might as well eliminate all the rules regarding recruiting and extra benefits. Basically make it anything goes.

[muskiefan82]

If an academic scholarship student does something/ invents something/ whatever that brings the school notoriety/ fame/ prestige should that student be compensated? Or is the scholarship and the things the university provides the student enough? I feel like we are putting athletes on another pedestal. I paid for school. If I could have used sports to pay for school, that would have been compensation to me. I just don't think this makes sense and I don't like it.

[Xville]

I don’t like where this is going at all, and I’m worried we may not recognize college sports in ten years. I’m all for giving the athletes enough money to live while in school (food, other groceries) in other words a stipend that will take care of them. Anything over that, I think is whiny progressive bs. These athletes are getting a free education and chance to get a college diploma that many otherwise would not have had the opportunity to get. Devaluing that, to me, is ridiculous. Yes I know coaches,schools, administrators etc are making millions off of a minuscule percentage of you...welcome to the real world. Unles you are a CEO, or owner of our own company, the company you work for is making money off of you either in hard or soft dollars. That’s life.

[UCGRAD4X]

my two cents worth probably isn't....but I will offer it anyway at absolutely no expense to you (in fact, as a supporting member, I am paying for the privilege...and so should you BTW).

I think this whole thing opens up so many cans of so many worms and probably even some snakes in some grass.

The system would potentially be rife with corruption and nefarious dealings - not that it doesn't already happen - but this would raise the bar exponentially (thing the ubiquitous skuttlebutt of keeping the alligators off of the playing field for a 6-figure salary) would be legitimized. At least there are "sanctions" against such offences at most institutions.

The argument about where the money is coming from is also a legitimate concern. Just like corporate taxes and increased minimum wages, the consumer eventually foots the bill. What about the institutions who do not make a profit off of sports.

Then there is determining who gets paid what for what sport. What about managers, graduate assistants, cheer leader, mascots, ball girls, bands....? What about other students who put on concerts or plays that the schools charge for admission?

Will there be agents involved?

Worms, cans, snakes and the lawn (of which you kids should get the hell off).

The students are not obligated to accept an invitation to play.

I honestly believe it will ruin the sport, just like free agency and arbitration ruined baseball.

[xubrew]

I don't really think there is much of a chance that this specific bill gets through. There is so little bipartisanship on anything that we can't seem to get any types of bills passed, and this particular one probably won't get through either. If it does, it will undergo countless rewrites and alterations, and that could take years.

Having said that, I think college athletics may be about to completely change because of what is happening in the courts, and not because of a congressional bill. I don't know how specifically it will shake out and/or what the long term consequences will be. Whatever they are, I do not think the NCAA is ready for it and I don't think they will handle it very well, at least not initially. That will probably not be good for college sports. At least not initially.

However this ends, I think players will be allowed (by law) to receive far more than what they are currently allowed to receive, and it could happen very soon.