Wilcher enters transfer portal

[Xavier]

Didn't see this coming. Past year transfers haven't been as bad- both kyky and wilcher were guys who I thought could at least contribute in the future.

Looking across the college landscape, this may be something we see every year. Wild wild west with transfers. I expect some major push back from coaches about the rule- this is certainly something that will take time getting used to.

[Xville]

So bigmoe knew what he was talking about. Effing great. 4 guys left from steeles 3 recruiting classes.

Again, good thing Steele played carter so much.

[GoMuskies]

Fire Steele

[markchal]

This one hurts more than Kyky. For whatever reason, Travis had botched that situation, so I didn't see it getting magically fixed.

Wilcher showed a lot of potential, and had a much bigger role towards end of the season. I get the back court logjam with Odom/Nate/Jones/Kunkel and maybe even Scruggs, and I think Wilcher was brought in as a SG, but he could've gotten minutes at the 4 like he did this season. I mean he even started a game or two didn't he?

[Mrs. Garrett]

Didn't see this coming. Past transfers havent been as bad- both kyky and wilcher does hurt a little more...

Looking across the college landscape, this may be something we see every year. Wild wild west with transfers

I believe younger brother is highly, highly rated in his class. I'm not saying tampering, but I could see some blue bloods making promises.

Also, Wilcher's mom was pretty involved with fans on social media. I feel like there were some twitter posts where she was involved with some back and forth with some fans. Maybe she didn't like what she saw.

Maybe Nate's coming back and his diminished role as a result. Who knows, but he was someone I didn't want to lose.

[Jehoya]

Wow!! What a swift kick to the nuts....CJ was going to be a baller at X..Wow!

[D-West & PO-Z]

I believe younger brother is highly, highly rated in his class. I'm not saying tampering, but I could see some blue bloods making promises.

Also, Wilcher's mom was pretty involved with fans on social media. I feel like there were some twitter posts where she was involved with some back and forth with some fans. Maybe she didn't like what she saw.

Maybe Nate's coming back and his diminished role as a result. Who knows, but he was someone I didn't want to lose.

Maybe Scruggs said he was coming back. Fingers crossed.

[Masterofreality]

This REALLY sucks!! but it was anticipated.

Another roster misuse. The bullheaded use of Jason Carter, the misdirected offense and emphasis on Practice Points comes home to roost.
So now , Harden, James, Bishop, KyKy, Ramsey and Wilcher. That is 6 that have been blown out of the program.
“Steele’s guys”.
Let’s hope there are no more, but can’t say for sure.

[markchal]

I'm disappointed to see him go, but I understand it. It makes a lot more sense if Scruggs is coming back, because as much as I like Wilcher (and I really do), I think he'd still be stuck at the end of the six guys fighting for the those 1-3 spots. I know he saw some time at the 4 but he's really out of place there and if we DO get a transfer big, his opp there would decrease. I also think both frosh are bigger than Wilcher, and could feasibly contribute more at the 4 than him.

That being said, he was one of the best shooters in his class, and I really would've liked to see what he could do here.

[Xville]

Remember when x had all those shooters? That was fun for a season

[Lloyd Braun]

Fuckity fuck

[noteggs]

I believe younger brother is highly, highly rated in his class. I'm not saying tampering, but I could see some blue bloods making promises.

Also, Wilcher's mom was pretty involved with fans on social media. I feel like there were some twitter posts where she was involved with some back and forth with some fans. Maybe she didn't like what she saw.

Maybe Nate's coming back and his diminished role as a result. Who knows, but he was someone I didn't want to lose.

Guess that takes us out of the Simeon sweepstakes. Know our chances were slim to none to begin with, but definitely seals the deal.

[xavierj]

Yeah this one sucks. I really liked him and he got a lot of playing time late. Looks like he wanted to play the 3 and they were probably honest with him that he was more suited for the 4 and Jones is more a 3. I fell like he will be a great player for someone but also will never be able to defend the 3 or the 4 very well. Hate to see him go.

[boozehound]

What a complete dumpster fire this whole Travis Steele experiment has been.

[Xville]

Thought it was weird that wilcher and Jones were in the same class to begin with, again roster construction. Yeah I know supposedly one is. 2/3 and the other a 3/4 but wilcher is 6’5 he’s not a suitable 4 for big east. There is just not a whole lot that Steele has done in 3 years to think “ ah that makes sense.” It’s more of what the eff is he thinking/doing

[UCGRAD4X]

Whatever happened to sticking around and beating out the competition? Making the whole team better by competing? Pushing each other to grow and improve? We need competition at every position, if for nothing else but to practice.

Could one reason be that players know Travis is going to play his favorites and damned putting the best team on the court?

Asking for a friend.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

So bigmoe knew what he was talking about. Effing great. 4 guys left from steeles 3 recruiting classes.

Again, good thing Steele played carter so much.

Sadly, yes.

Just because I can't tell people how when they ask 4x, doesn't mean I don't know.

Really disappointing.

[Xville]

Sadly, yes.

Just because I can't tell people how when they ask 4x, doesn't mean I don't know.

Really disappointing.

Since it kind of came from left field, I believed ya. Steele is a dumpster..let’s cut ties and run

[Masterofreality]

Yeah this one sucks. I really liked him and he got a lot of playing time late. Looks like he wanted to play the 3 and they were probably honest with him that he was more suited for the 4 and Jones is more a 3. I fell like he will be a great player for someone but also will never be able to defend the 3 or the 4 very well. Hate to see him go.

CJ got zero playing time in the second half of the last Butler game, after playing great in the first half.
STOOOPID!

[Xavier]

CJ got zero playing time in the second half of the last Butler game, after playing great in the first half.
STOOOPID!

Well with him playing they only got a 19 point lead/s.

[xukeith]

Not great and not horrible.
He was the least promising frosh.
Guards with a sweet stroke are plentiful in the scheme of things.

Be happy you are not UC's Head coach with 6 transfers in 48 hours.

Still have strong foundation with Odom, Jones, Kunkel. leading the backcourt.

[GoMuskies]

not horrible

Wut?

[UCGRAD4X]

Not great and not horrible.
He was the least promising frosh.
Guards with a sweet stroke are plentiful in the scheme of things.

Be happy you are not UC's Head coach with 6 transfers in 48 hours.

Still have strong foundation with Odom, Jones, Kunkel. leading the backcourt.

...for now...

[bleedXblue]

Travis Steele doesn't know what he's doing. Please stop the madness before he does any further damage to the program.

There were 4 guys to build the program around:

CJ, Free, Odom and Jones. Throw Miles in there too b4 he transfers.

Under no circumstances do you sacrifice playing time and development of those 5 to bring back players who have 1 year of eligibility unless their name is DAVID FUCKING WEST.

Just colossally stupid moves.

We've now lost 3 players from our last two classes which was supposed to solidify the program and give us something to build around.

[Xavier]

He doesn’t exactly have time to look to the future. He has one year left to make the tournament and he is going to go all in. He put himself in this position but don’t blame him for putting chips in for this year his job depends on it

[whopper]

I will say this puts a LOT of pressure on Ben Stanley coming back and producing. I liked the little I saw (and focused on him against Seton Hall and Creighton and he held his defensive and rebounding position well. He is kind of same size as Wilcher, stronger but not as much range it seems. CJ not a world beater but a contributor and got some unathletic offensive rebounds for a put back which surprised me. Damn

[markchal]

He doesn’t exactly have time to look to the future. He has one year left to make the tournament and he is going to go all in. He put himself in this position but don’t blame him for putting chips in for this year his job depends on it

agreed--miss the tournament and he's gone, and Wilcher (and others?) would probably transfer then anyway. You gotta take 1 year of Nate over 3 of Wilcher at this point, even if it's a real bummer to not get to see his career here.

[bleedXblue]

He doesn’t exactly have time to look to the future. He has one year left to make the tournament and he is going to go all in. He put himself in this position but don’t blame him for putting chips in for this year his job depends on it

Sacrificing the future and the foundation is a dumb ass decision

You're telling me the production of Nate Johnson was going to be far and away better than that of CJ Wilcher next year? Assuming they played a similar number of minutes?

And then what about the production that CJ could have given us his Junior and Senior years???

[GoMuskies]

You 100% have to take Nate Johnson back if he wants to come back. If CJ Wilcher wants to transfer because Nate Johnson is back, I'm not sure that's a guy you want in the program anyway.

[Xavier]

Sacrificing the future and the foundation is a dumb ass decision

You're telling me the production of Nate Johnson was going to be far and away better than that of CJ Wilcher next year? Assuming they played a similar number of minutes?

And then what about the production that CJ could have given us his Junior and Senior years???

...yes. Next year I’m comfortable saying Johnson would be far and away better. And for Travis- if he doesn’t make the tournament next year, wilcher potential JR/SR production means nothing to him. All I’m saying is Travis has to put all eggs in one basket to save his job. And yes, I think Johnson could be a type of player that swings X into the tournament. You take that guy everytime, same with Scruggs coming back.

I hope coach always wants to put best team possible on the court.

[bleedXblue]

...yes. Next year I’m comfortable saying Johnson would be far and away better. And for Travis- if he doesn’t make the tournament next year, wilcher potential JR/SR production means nothing to him. All I’m saying is Travis has to put all eggs in one basket to save his job. And yes, I think Johnson could be a type of player that swings X into the tournament. You take that guy everytime, same with Scruggs coming back.

I hope coach always wants to put best team possible on the court.

Johnson averaged 11 PPG this year playing 31 MPG

A nice player that can knock down some shots

CJ Wilcher playing 31 MPG would offer up VERY, VERY similar production. Come on

[Xavier]

Putting Johnson as a nice player that can knock down some shots really downplaying everything he does and brings to the team. But if that’s how you see him I can see why you think CJ can be as productive next year

By the way I wish CJ would’ve stayed, I think he could’ve been a solid 6th/7th man for X

[bleedXblue]

Putting Johnson as a nice player that can knock down some shots really downplaying everything he does and brings to the team. But if that’s how you see him I can see why you think CJ can be as productive next year

Again, Nate Johnson isn't David West, Byron Larkin or Romain Sato.

No disrespect to anything he brings to the team.

Its just very simple, CJ could have offered very similar production next year. OTHERWISE, why in the hell did we recruit him and bring him to X? He's clearly a good player with good potential.

I just dont think the trade was worth it.

[GoMuskies]

It can't be viewed as a trade, though. We need multiple good players. We had like 5 total on the roster. That forces CJ to leave? Because he wanted to be one of only 4 good players on the roster? And we're supposed to accommodate him by not taking back a guy who was among the top 3 point shooters in college basketball last year?!?

[IM4X]

CJ got zero playing time in the second half of the last Butler game, after playing great in the first half.
STOOOPID!

The need for CJ in the 2nd half indisputable.
Travis choosing not pla him was inexcusable.
Any excuse for playing Carter is Indefensible.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Travis Steele doesn't know what he's doing. Please stop the madness before he does any further damage to the program.

There were 4 guys to build the program around:

CJ, Free, Odom and Jones. Throw Miles in there too b4 he transfers.

Under no circumstances do you sacrifice playing time and development of those 5 to bring back players who have 1 year of eligibility unless their name is DAVID FUCKING WEST.

Just colossally stupid moves.

We've now lost 3 players from our last two classes which was supposed to solidify the program and give us something to build around.

So you are mad Steele let Nate Johnson come back? Seriously? One of the best 3 point shooters in the country? You lost me on that one.

You giving Steele a pass on next year? Is Christopher? If the answer is no Steele made the right decision on Johnson eve if it guaranteed Wilcher left.

Steele has a year to prove he can coach and Johnson is infinitely greater than Wilcher if we re talking one year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

agreed--miss the tournament and he's gone, and Wilcher (and others?) would probably transfer then anyway. You gotta take 1 year of Nate over 3 of Wilcher at this point, even if it's a real bummer to not get to see his career here.

Agreed 1000%

[D-West & PO-Z]

You're telling me the production of Nate Johnson was going to be far and away better than that of CJ Wilcher next year? Assuming they played a similar number of minutes?



Yes

[D-West & PO-Z]

You 100% have to take Nate Johnson back if he wants to come back. If CJ Wilcher wants to transfer because Nate Johnson is back, I'm not sure that's a guy you want in the program anyway.

Yes, this as well.

[IM4X]

You 100% have to take Nate Johnson back if he wants to come back. If CJ Wilcher wants to transfer because Nate Johnson is back, I'm not sure that's a guy you want in the program anyway.

Great point!

Though I am wondering if we we should all probably take a step back before jumping to the conclusion that CJ leaving because Natenis coming back. That would actually make me want to come back, if I were CJ. He is only a Freshman and Nate would only have one more season. Plus, CJ was probably going to have some solid minutes.

My guess would be that CJ’s decision had nothing to do with Nate or even Scruggs (players with one potential year of eligibility), but rather something more to do with the new players coming in who may take some of his minutes or even maybe he had an issue with Steele playing Carter instead of him which ultimately lead to the team not making it into the tournament. There are lots of reasons he may have made this decision.

I don’t get why fans would post about not wanting an absolutely amazing player like Nate to come back because of some wild speculation that his decision was the reason CJ chose to transfer.

[xuphan]

You 100% have to take Nate Johnson back if he wants to come back. If CJ Wilcher wants to transfer because Nate Johnson is back, I'm not sure that's a guy you want in the program anyway.

There seems to be a lot of guys that are not wanted in the program. The problem is the current head coach has recruited all of them. Sat down with them and their families and told them how they would fit perfectly with Xavier. Might as well call Xavier transfer portal U with Steele in charge. Hope Steele can use his “great” recruiter stigma to go out and get multiple players from the transfer portal again. Can’t wait to see which DII player we are in on in the couple of weeks.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Great point!

Though I am wondering if we we should all probably take a step back before jumping to the conclusion that CJ leaving because Natenis coming back. That would actually make me want to come back, if I were CJ. He is only a Freshman and Nate would only have one more season. Plus, CJ was probably going to have some solid minutes.

My guess would be that CJ’s decision had nothing to do with Nate or even Scruggs (players with one potential year of eligibility), but rather something more to do with the new players coming in who may take some of his minutes or even maybe he had an issue with Steele playing Carter instead of him which ultimately lead to the team not making it into the tournament. There are lots of reasons he may have made this decision.

I don’t get why fans would post about not wanting an absolutely amazing player like Nate to come back because of some wild speculation that his decision was the reason CJ chose to transfer.

Yes to above. This very much strikes me as more of an issue with Steele than a worry about future playing time.

[Xavier]

It goes both ways. Nate, and especially Paul if he comes back, wanting to come back and play for Steele certainty gives Travis a nod in my book.

[UCGRAD4X]

I'm not going to look into the mind of this young man. I don't know what went into this decision. There may be personal, family, homesick issues...who knows. I wish him well.

So, not necessarily talking about CJ in particular, but with so many players jumping ship...sometimes players need to grow some backbone, suck up their winey insecurities and honor their commitment. Nobody promised them playing time. Stay. Work your ass off. Face the competition, up your game and win the position.

[xuphan]

It goes both ways. Nate, and especially Paul if he comes back, wanting to come back and play for Steele certainty gives Travis a nod in my book.

Will you be saying this if Carter comes back?

[xavierj]

Will you be saying this if Carter comes back?

He isn’t coming back. Hopefully Tucker is the real deal at the 4. They get a Colby like production but in the form of a 4 out of Tucker than things will be looking up. I would add a 4 though in the portal and maybe a big wing who can shoot. Still don’t think they need any more than 2 transfers and then go heavier in 2022 class.

[xuphan]

He isn’t coming back. Hopefully Tucker is the real deal at the 4. They get a Colby like production but in the form of a 4 out of Tucker than things will be looking up. I would add a 4 though in the portal and maybe a big wing who can shoot. Still don’t think they need any more than 2 transfers and then go heavier in 2022 class.

Has it been confirmed that Carter is not coming back?

[XUGRAD80]

Has it been confirmed that Carter is not coming back?

What’s he going to do, work on his doctorate? He was a grad transfer when he came 2 years ago, so he should have his masters by the end of this year.

[drudy23]

This isn’t a sign of a healthy program. I don’t care what you say about transfer culture. Ridiculous.

[hydmuskie]

Here is who is coming back at Guard

Colby
Kunkel
Johnson
Odom
and potentially Scruggs

I think CJ looks at that and he is probably behind Scruggs, Colby, JOhnson, Odom. He potentially splits time with Kunkel... Would you stay at a place where you the second from bottom in the role you have?

When you look even further - he wouldn't start on any BE team - including Depaul.

I dont mind him looking at all.... he should go somewhere he is top 3 and has a shot at a starting role. he is just a freshman - he needs PT and he is not going to get it here

[XUBison]

This isn’t a sign of a healthy program. I don’t care what you say about transfer culture. Ridiculous.

Yep.

[XUBison]

Here is who is coming back at Guard

Colby
Kunkel
Johnson
Odom
and potentially Scruggs

I think CJ looks at that and he is probably behind Scruggs, Colby, JOhnson, Odom. He potentially splits time with Kunkel... Would you stay at a place where you the second from bottom in the role you have?

When you look even further - he wouldn't start on any BE team - including Depaul.

I dont mind him looking at all.... he should go somewhere he is top 3 and has a shot at a starting role. he is just a freshman - he needs PT and he is not going to get it here

Nope.

[Irishjohn68]

Why didn’t Mack just take Travis with him to Louisville. If Travis could coach we wouldn’t have to watch this shit.

[XUBison]

[QUOTE=Irishjohn68;699733]Why didn’t Mack just take Travis with him to Louisville. If Travis could coach we wouldn’t have to watch this shit.[

Mack would have, but then we signed Steele instead of Porrter Moser.

[X Factor]

[QUOTE=Irishjohn68;699733]Why didn’t Mack just take Travis with him to Louisville. If Travis could coach we wouldn’t have to watch this shit.[

Mack would have, but then we signed Steele instead of Porrter Moser.

Or Nate Oats, or Eric Musselman.

[xukeith]

Xavier cannot afford a former NBA coach.

[Xavier]

This isn’t a sign of a healthy program. I don’t care what you say about transfer culture. Ridiculous.

Mack did have 9 kids leave under him. It isn’t unusual to see one kid go a year, and just wait- this new rule is opening the flood gates. I’m not saying the program is healthy, just saying it’s a “new normal”. I’d still expect at least one kid to leave a year, similar to Mack tenure.

This rule will put even more importance on strong head coaches- players that respect the coaching staff etc. I am not defending the program under Steele just pointing out- even under old rule we saw about a transfer a year. Not having to sit out means you should expect a slight increase.

[bleedXblue]

It can't be viewed as a trade, though. We need multiple good players. We had like 5 total on the roster. That forces CJ to leave? Because he wanted to be one of only 4 good players on the roster? And we're supposed to accommodate him by not taking back a guy who was among the top 3 point shooters in college basketball last year?!?

9 on the roster for next year and if Scruggs comes back 10. Two classic SG's to compete against and if Scruggs comes back add another with Odom at point.

[BandAid]

[QUOTE=XUBison;699738]

Or Nate Oats, or Eric Musselman.

Wait, did we have a legit chance of signing Eric Musselman?

[bleedXblue]

Yes

Based on what exactly? If you want to look at FACTS, their production numbers are very, very similar.

Help me again on why we recruited CJ to Xavier? Wasn't he touted by Steele himself as one of the best shooters in last years class?

[bleedXblue]

.

[UCGRAD4X]

.

This is certainly hard to argue with.

If you can't say anything nice....

[XfansinKy]

Based on what exactly? If you want to look at FACTS, their production numbers are very, very similar.

Help me again on why we recruited CJ to Xavier? Wasn't he touted by Steele himself as one of the best shooters in last years class?

Actually Steele said he was the best shooter in the nation

[xukeith]

Actually Steele said he was the best shooter in the nation

I could be wrong but I thought he said "one of the best shooters....."

[markchal]

I think he said in the class, which is what some analysts have said as well.

Even if it meant overall, it seems to be a phrase he's not shy to throw around (I believe he's called Tandy and Kunkel both the best shooter on the team at different points last year, and about Nate, although that one is obviously true)

[bobbiemcgee]

I could be wrong but I thought he said "one of the best shooters....."

He averaged 3 ppg.

[bleedXblue]

He averaged 3 ppg.

You cant be serious. He played sparingly and never got the chance to play meaningful minutes.

[bobbiemcgee]

You cant be serious. He played sparingly and never got the chance to play meaningful minutes.

Whose fault was that? He didn't play much because he didn't make shots and was a below average rebounder and defender.

[xuwillie]

Whose fault was that? He didn't play much because he didn't make shots and was a below average rebounder and defender.

Steele’s fault. He’ll end up at a better program than X and people I here will still think Steele is handling things correctly

[XUBison]

Whose fault was that? He didn't play much because he didn't make shots and was a below average rebounder and defender.

Wow... this gaslighting is getting really tiresome. I’ll say it again, I think there is real substance that can be used in defense of Steele, but this is not it. Some of these takes are pathetic.

[bleedXblue]

Whose fault was that? He didn't play much because he didn't make shots and was a below average rebounder and defender.

Just a colossal stupid position to take

[bobbiemcgee]

He quit on us so who cares. Next guy up who actually wants to be here.

[XUBison]

Why didn’t Mack just take Travis with him to Louisville. If Travis could coach we wouldn’t have to watch this shit.

Funny thing is, if Travis had gone with Mack, he probably would have gotten fired last week.

[bobbiemcgee]

Just a colossal stupid position to take

Just quoted what 247 said in the transfer portal. They must have some real dummies over there.

[xuwillie]

The same guy that was in Steele’s wedding?

[bleedXblue]

He quit on us so who cares. Next guy up who actually wants to be here.

Another weak take.

Dismissing him as the problem and not addressing at all the issue of players leaving and the possibility that we lost one of the key recruits from last years class b/c of our current coaching staff's insufficiencies.

[Xville]

He quit on us so who cares. Next guy up who actually wants to be here.

Quit on us? Who is us? Maybe he quit on a coach who doesn’t know what the eff he is doing and played carter insane minutes to the detriment of the team.

[bobbiemcgee]

We have a 4 yr. program here at X. Anyway, he quit after 1, so why argue. He gone.

[bleedXblue]

We have a 4 yr. program here at X. Anyway, he quit after 1, so why argue. He gone.

I forgot how insufferable you are. My bad for acknowledging your opinion worthy of response

[XUBison]

We have a 4 yr. program here at X. Anyway, he quit after 1, so why argue. He gone.

Did anyone bother to explain this to our coach?

[IM4X]

Just quoted what 247 said in the transfer portal. They must have some real dummies over there.

This may actually be very accurate.

[IM4X]

Has there been any official statement from Travis about why CJ or even Kyky are leaving?

I mean, I know we all have our hunches why Kyky left (playing time or possibly not seeing eye to eye with Steele) and CJ left (pissed he got no playing time in second half of Butler game or worried too many players playing at his position next year), but I would really like to hear from the man who actually recruited them and gushed about how talented and crucial they both were going to be to the team.

Maybe he wants to make sure Scruggs is coming back before stepping into something that he knows looks bad as least at first glance.

[GoMuskies]

Just quoted what 247 said in the transfer portal. They must have some real dummies over there.

That's been my experience, yes.

[AviatorX]

Has there been any official statement from Travis about why CJ or even Kyky are leaving?

I mean, I know we all have our hunches why Kyky left (playing time or possibly not seeing eye to eye with Steele) and CJ left (pissed he got no playing time in second half of Butler game or worried too many players playing at his position next year), but I would really like to hear from the man who actually recruited them and gushed about how talented and crucial they both were going to be to the team.

Maybe he wants to make sure Scruggs is coming back before stepping into something that he knows looks bad as least at first glance.

What kind of statement are you expecting? What coach in America gives statements on transfers beyond “we wish them well and thank them for all they brought to the program”

[xuphan]

Has there been any official statement from Travis about why CJ or even Kyky are leaving?

I mean, I know we all have our hunches why Kyky left (playing time or possibly not seeing eye to eye with Steele) and CJ left (pissed he got no playing time in second half of Butler game or worried too many players playing at his position next year), but I would really like to hear from the man who actually recruited them and gushed about how talented and crucial they both were going to be to the team.

Maybe he wants to make sure Scruggs is coming back before stepping into something that he knows looks bad as least at first glance.

I am surprised there isn’t a statement from the coach about the transfers. Seems like the classy thing to do is to thank them for their time at the program and wish them well in the future. Seems odd Steele has not done this yet.

[xudash]

I am surprised there isn’t a statement from the coach about the transfers. Seems like the classy thing to do is to thank them for their time at the program and wish them well in the future. Seems odd Steele has not done this yet.

Maybe he has done that privately. Nonetheless, some form of public statement would seem appropriate. I agree with you that that would be the classy thing to do, and it certainly would be a good reflection on the program.

Perhaps a silly question, but if CJ doesn’t like the options that are presented to him for any of his reasons, can he come back, or stay at Xavier?

[xavierj]

I am surprised there isn’t a statement from the coach about the transfers. Seems like the classy thing to do is to thank them for their time at the program and wish them well in the future. Seems odd Steele has not done this yet.

Is this a joke? No coaches make statements on transfers unless they are asked. Didn’t someone already ask this same question above? I guess you can ask Adam Baum to ask him if you need a statement. Frankly who cares? It would be coach speak anyway. Three guys decided to leave so they are gone. Won’t lose sleep over players who want to go somewhere else. You want more PT and don’t think you will get it where you are then do what you have to do.

[IM4X]

What kind of statement are you expecting? What coach in America gives statements on transfers beyond “we wish them well and thank them for all they brought to the program”

That would be a would be a start. What do you mean “What coach in Ameriica gives a statement on Transfers.” Shit, even Chris Mack, during his end of the season press conference discussed one of his players who was transferring and literally explained in detail that the player had been dealing with injuries and then struggled a bit to get healthy and then he was not getting as many minutes and wanted to play somewhere that he felt he was assured more minutes - and then of course he wished him the best of luck BS.

Personally, I think it is a total load of BS when a head coach feels he doesn’t owe anyone any explorations about what is going on with his team. I hope that is not the case with Steele. Just let the fans and the media know the damn situation... Step up - be a man and rip off the band-aid already.



of year press conference that one of his

[xuphan]

Is this a joke? No coaches make statements on transfers unless they are asked. Didn’t someone already ask this same question above? I guess you can ask Adam Baum to ask him if you need a statement. Frankly who cares? It would be coach speak anyway. Three guys decided to leave so they are gone. Won’t lose sleep over players who want to go somewhere else. You want more PT and don’t think you will get it where you are then do what you have to do.

Many coaches make classy statements wishing the transfer well even if the coach/player are not on good terms. Usually it is done either through social media or through the schools website. I don’t NEED a statement but it is good PR to do so. Steele has plenty of time on his hands anyways since he couldn’t coach this program down the stretch to an NCAA tournament bid. Maybe he is to busy tallying up practice points.

[xavierj]

That would be a would be a start. What do you mean “What coach in Ameriica gives a statement on Transfers.” Shit, even Chris Mack, during his end of the season press conference discussed one of his players who was transferring and literally explained in detail that the player had been dealing with injuries and then struggled a bit to get healthy and then he was not getting as many minutes and wanted to play somewhere that he felt he was assured more minutes - and then of course he wished him the best of luck BS.

Personally, I think it is a total load of BS when a head coach feels he doesn’t owe anyone any explorations about what is going on with his team. I hope that is not the case with Steele. Just let the fans and the media know the damn situation... Step up - be a man and rip the bandaid off.



of year press conference that one of his

First of all Xavier would have to schedule a press conference, which I can’t remember them ever doing that at the end of the season, and second a reporter would have to ask the question. Maybe you can schedule Travis for an end of the season press conference so we can get these important matters put to rest. The last thing I will say, will it make you feel better for the coach to lie just so he can stay classy in your eyes?

[IM4X]

Is this a joke? No coaches make statements on transfers unless they are asked. Didn’t someone already ask this same question above? I guess you can ask Adam Baum to ask him if you need a statement. Frankly who cares? It would be coach speak anyway. Three guys decided to leave so they are gone. Won’t lose sleep over players who want to go somewhere else. You want more PT and don’t think you will get it where you are then do what you have to do.

Apparently a lot of us care that is why we are asking the damn question. If Chris Mack can tell the press about his transfers - and he did - than why can’t Travis?

I hate this BS that some fans buy into, believing coaches don’t need to tell anyone anything.

That shit don’t fly for a guy like Steele who is 0-3 when it comes to making the tournament.

[xavierj]

Many coaches make classy statements wishing the transfer well even if the coach/player are not on good terms. Usually it is done either through social media or through the schools website. I don’t NEED a statement but it is good PR to do so. Steele has plenty of time on his hands anyways since he couldn’t coach this program down the stretch to an NCAA tournament bid. Maybe he is to busy tallying up practice points.

I don’t usually pay attention to that stuff but can you provide some examples other than Chris Mack’s end of the year press conference. And do you expect them to do it on their own, via Twitter or expect someone to ask the question so they can provide a statement? This is one of the most petty things I have ever seen and I see a lot on this site.

[xavierj]

Apparently a lot of us care that is why we are asking the damn question. If Chris Mack can tell the press about his transfers - and he did - than why can’t Travis?

I hate this BS that some fans buy intro believing coaches don’t need to tell anyone anything.

Rhst shot don’t fly for a guy like Steele who is 0-3 when it comes to making the tournament.

When did Travis have a press conference after these guys decided to leave? And when did Adam Baum pose the question? Look Travis has a lot to work on, but to be mad at him for not scheduling a press conference to say bye to guys leaving is interesting. Do coaches do this when guys leave when they graduate? I feel like I am in bizzaro world. Maybe I am.

[AviatorX]

That would be a would be a start. What do you mean “What coach in Ameriica gives a statement on Transfers.” Shit, even Chris Mack, during his end of the season press conference discussed one of his players who was transferring and literally explained in detail that the player had been dealing with injuries and then struggled a bit to get healthy and then he was not getting as many minutes and wanted to play somewhere that he felt he was assured more minutes - and then of course he wished him the best of luck BS.

Personally, I think it is a total load of BS when a head coach feels he doesn’t owe anyone any explorations about what is going on with his team. I hope that is not the case with Steele. Just let the fans and the media know the damn situation... Step up - be a man and rip off the band-aid already.



of year press conference that one of his

I would be willing to bet you will get the cookie cutter statement you want. But then you’ll whine it didn’t happen on your timeline I guess. This fascination with Travis’ coach speak when he does give statements is pretty dumb already, but if people really want to now start complaining about the other side of the coin I guess that’s their choice.

[bobbiemcgee]

Is this a joke? No coaches make statements on transfers unless they are asked. Didn’t someone already ask this same question above? I guess you can ask Adam Baum to ask him if you need a statement. Frankly who cares? It would be coach speak anyway. Three guys decided to leave so they are gone. Won’t lose sleep over players who want to go somewhere else. You want more PT and don’t think you will get it where you are then do what you have to do.

+ 1. Who cares about guys who leave the program. Good Luck. G'bye.

[IM4X]

First of all Xavier would have to schedule a press conference, which I can’t remember them ever doing that at the end of the season, and second a reporter would haves to ask the question. Maybe you can schedule Travis for an end of the season press conference so we can get these important matters put to rest. The last thing I will say, will it make you feel better for the coach to lie just so he can stay classy in your eyes?

So you are okay with Steele saying nothing about the situation after what we have seen the past three seasons? Sorry I am not - fans /financial supports want to know the program isn’t tanking- I don’t care if he sugar coats it with “Scruggs and Johnson are coming back and two amazing three point shooters are coming to the rescue.” Just fill us in - or everyone is going to think the worst.

[xuphan]

I don’t usually pay attention to that stuff but can you provide some examples other than Chris Mack’s end of the year press conference. And do you expect them to do it on their own, via Twitter or expect someone to ask the question so they can provide a statement? This is one of the most petty things I have ever seen and I see a lot on this site.

Excuse me? I don’t think anyone needs to ask Steele. Steele on his own should create a statement about the transfers leaving the program on the schools basketball website. Keeping the fans informed is important and it is good PR to the rest of the basketball world. Well here is one example from a Clemson transfer since you don’t think it is ever done.


“I’d like to thank Trey for his hard work and contributions to our program over the last two seasons,” Brownell said. “We wish him the best of luck in the future.”

Not that difficult of a statement to produce.

[xavierj]

So you are okay with Steele saying nothing about the situation after what we have seen the past three seasons? Sorry I am not - fans /financial supports want to know the program isn’t tanking- I don’t care if he sugar coats it with “Scruggs and Johnson are coming back and two amazing three point shooters are coming to the rescue.” Just fill us in - or everyone is going to think the worst.

About him making a statement about guys that left? Yeah no I could care less regardless of the last three seasons. You obviously have a problem with it, so I would recommend contacting Tom Eiser and demand a press conference and demand that Travis thanks these guys for being here and wish them luck. I would hate for this matter not to allow you to sleep at night. Maybe he will let you be there so you can ask this important question. Let me know how that goes. I would rather him address how he plans to get more out of the 4 next year, how he plans to address the shooting woes and if he has plans to get rid of the pack line. Can you get those questions answered as well? Also ask him what he is looking to bring in through the transfer portal. Now that is stuff that I would like to know.

[IM4X]

I would be willing to bet you will get the cookie cutter statement you want. But then you’ll whine it didn’t happen on your timeline I guess. This fascination with Travis’ coach speak when he does give statements is pretty dumb already, but if people really want to now start complaining about the other side of the coin I guess that’s their choice.

what ever Dude- a little information after a pretty surprising departure (at least with CJ) is not a crazy request.
If you don’t give a damn hearing why two players who were supposed to be key parts of the team are leaving especially when we haven’t made the dance in three years - that’s your prerogative - but don’t tell fans they are whining who want to know what is going on. That is BS.

[IM4X]

About him making a statement about guys that left? Yeah no I could care less regardless of the last three seasons. You obviously have a problem with it, so I would recommend contacting Tom Eiser and demand a press conference and demand that Travis thanks these guys for being here and wish them luck. I would hate for this matter not to allow you to sleep at night. Maybe he will let you be there so you can ask this important question. Let me know how that goes. I would rather him address how he plans to get more out of the 4 next year, how he plans to address the shooting woes and if he has plans to get rid of the pack line. Can you get those questions answered as well? Also ask him what he is looking to bring in through the transfer portal. Now that is stuff that I would like to know.

That’s exactly the stuff I too would like to hear from Steele at such a press conference . “CJ left because he wasn’t seeing how he would get more minutes and wanted to be starting somewhere... the reason is we have Scruggs and Nate coming back and the guys coming in with Colby coming back and another freshmen at a similar position he just felt he wanted to be at. Place where he was going to be guaranteed more minutes - which I could not promise him... and we are also in on a few other players who we think will fit what the team badly in need of.” Something like that puts fans at ease that the sky is not falling and allows a little more faith to creep in about him as the head coach.

[xuphan]

That’s exactly the stuff I too would like to hear from Steele at such a press conference . “CJ left because he wasn’t seeing how he would get more minutes and wanted to be starting somewhere... the reason is we have Scruggs, Jasonand Nate coming back and the guys coming in with Colby coming back and another freshmen at a similar position he just felt he wanted to be at. Place where he was going to be guaranteed more minutes - which I could not promise him... and we are also in on a few other players who we think will fit what the team badly in need of.” Something like that puts fans at ease that the sky is not falling and allows a little more faith to creep in about him as the head coach.

Fixed it for you :)

[IM4X]

Excuse me? I don’t think anyone needs to ask Steele. Steele on his own should create a statement about the transfers leaving the program on the schools basketball website. Keeping the fans informed is important and it is good PR to the rest of the basketball world. Well here is one example from a Clemson transfer since you don’t think it is ever done.


“I’d like to thank Trey for his hard work and contributions to our program over the last two seasons,” Brownell said. “We wish him the best of luck in the future.”

Not that difficult of a statement to produce.

True- Most college Coaches do address transfers and they should. Not just Clemson’s coach and Mack.

[XUBison]

We don’t need Steele to speak on it to know losing three players from a top 25 recruiting class is a problem. Clearly the Kyky issue had layers we will never understand, but I suspect the Wilcher decision caught the staff off guard. Sure we move on with the people who want to be here... what choice do we have? But any organization had better get self-reflective whenever it starts hemorrhaging talent.

Sorry... four players from two different top 25 classes, but the point remains.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Has there been any official statement from Travis about why CJ or even Kyky are leaving?

I mean, I know we all have our hunches why Kyky left (playing time or possibly not seeing eye to eye with Steele) and CJ left (pissed he got no playing time in second half of Butler game or worried too many players playing at his position next year), but I would really like to hear from the man who actually recruited them and gushed about how talented and crucial they both were going to be to the team.

Maybe he wants to make sure Scruggs is coming back before stepping into something that he knows looks bad as least at first glance.

What would you expect him to say?

Here is what he will say: "Kyky and CJ have informed us they are entering the transfer portal. We wish Kyky and CJ well in their future endeavors."

[D-West & PO-Z]

When did Travis have a press conference after these guys decided to leave? And when did Adam Baum pose the question? Look Travis has a lot to work on, but to be mad at him for not scheduling a press conference to say bye to guys leaving is interesting. Do coaches do this when guys leave when they graduate? I feel like I am in bizzaro world. Maybe I am.

Ha, me too. I have a lot of issues with Steele but not hearing him comment "we wish CJ and Kyky luck" isn't one of them.

[D-West & PO-Z]

That’s exactly the stuff I too would like to hear from Steele at such a press conference . “CJ left because he wasn’t seeing how he would get more minutes and wanted to be starting somewhere... the reason is we have Scruggs and Nate coming back and the guys coming in with Colby coming back and another freshmen at a similar position he just felt he wanted to be at. Place where he was going to be guaranteed more minutes - which I could not promise him... and we are also in on a few other players who we think will fit what the team badly in need of.” Something like that puts fans at ease that the sky is not falling and allows a little more faith to creep in about him as the head coach.

I honestly think you want something that isnt offered by Xavier. Seems like maybe Louisville does an end of season press conference for Mack to communicate to the fans/press? Maybe contact Tom Eiser like suggested and say you believe a state of the program address is needed at the end of each year.

[IM4X]

What would you expect him to say?

Here is what he will say: "Kyky and CJ have informed us they are entering the transfer portal. We wish Kyky and CJ well in their future endeavors."


Posted this above but I am fine reposting it:

—————-
“CJ left because he had trouble seeing how he would get more minutes and he wanted to be azures he’d play more next year... the thing is we have Scruggs and Nate coming back and then Colby and Kunkel coming back and another freshmen at a similar position to CJ and he just felt he wanted to to able to be guaranteed more minutes - which I could not just promise him of course... and we are also in on a few other players who we think will help us down low.” Something like that puts fans at ease that the sky is not falling and allows a little more faith to creep in about him as the head coach.

————-

I want to make this clear- I was never complaining that he hadn’t said anything - just asking if he did and putting my two cents in that he should - especially given the state of the program and not making the dance for three straight seasons. The statement above (if close to true) help with damage control to stop people from speculating that things are worse than maybe they are.

[IM4X]

I honestly think you want something that isnt offered by Xavier. Seems like maybe Louisville does an end of season press conference for Mack to communicate to the fans/press? Maybe contact Tom Eiser like suggested and say you believe a state of the program address is needed at the end of each year.

Again- it would be completely different if X was making it into the dance every year. You would think the fact that we haven’t been living up to our standards, it would lead the AD to tell Travis “I think it might be good to say something to let fans know we are going to be fine and that these players, while talented feel they need more of a guarantee than you could give them at this point. Maybe you could tell them we have a lot of talent coming back - and some new talent being added that should fill in some of the gaps nicely.” At least that is what one would think a program with high standards and loyal fans like X has would do.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

That's been my experience, yes.

Agreed. Rick is a condescending jerk, no two ways about it, and I can't get over anyone who gives he or his opinions an ounce of credibility.

I was a bigger fan of Brian and his takes when his best friend wasn't the head coach, thus eliminating all objectivity on all topics Xavier.

You can keep them both, as far as I'm concerned.

[throwbackmuskie]

So Wilcher was set to come back till Johnson decided to come back. This is piss poor on Steele. I let do what we can to keep the younger higher upside guy than the 6th year guy. Not a super fan of Ramsey leaving, but his injuries may have hurt his upside. Tandy leaving, don't blame him either, instant offense and cant see the floor, when you go into scoring slumps, who cares about D, big him in and try and get something going. Coach transfer needs to enter the portal. I know I said next year is make or break, but I think we are already hitting the break.

[throwbackmuskie]

Agreed. Rick is a condescending jerk, no two ways about it, and I can't get over anyone who gives he or his opinions an ounce of credibility.

I was a bigger fan of Brian and his takes when his best friend wasn't the head coach, thus eliminating all objectivity on all topics Xavier.

You can keep them both, as far as I'm concerned.

I use to listen to the podcast but the third wheel guy was super annoying and added nothing. At least Boring and Snow would put out some info.

[bleedXblue]

I use to listen to the podcast but the third wheel guy was super annoying and added nothing. At least Boring and Snow would put out some info.

Broering adds little to no value. Not a fan at all

[xavierj]

So Wilcher was set to come back till Johnson decided to come back. This is piss poor on Steele. I let do what we can to keep the younger higher upside guy than the 6th year guy. Not a super fan of Ramsey leaving, but his injuries may have hurt his upside. Tandy leaving, don't blame him either, instant offense and cant see the floor, when you go into scoring slumps, who cares about D, big him in and try and get something going. Coach transfer needs to enter the portal. I know I said next year is make or break, but I think we are already hitting the break.

I am ok with Johnson coming back as he had three seasons were he only played a total of 29 games. 16 this year, 1 his freshman year and 12 his sophomore year due to injury. He is a great shooter and plays defense too, so he can really help. I love Paul but have mixed feelings on on that one. Sometimes the ball stops with it in his hands. If he doesn’t come back I think Wilcher might.

[bleedXblue]

I am ok with Johnson coming back as he had three seasons were he only played a total of 29 games. 16 this year, 1 his freshman year and 12 his sophomore year due to injury. He is a great shooter and plays defense too, so he can really help. I love Paul but have mixed feelings on on that one. Sometimes the ball stops with it in his hands. If he doesn’t come back I think Wilcher might.

That's a statement you have to back up with some more info or inside knowledge.

[throwbackmuskie]

I am ok with Johnson coming back as he had three seasons were he only played a total of 29 games. 16 this year, 1 his freshman year and 12 his sophomore year due to injury. He is a great shooter and plays defense too, so he can really help. I love Paul but have mixed feelings on on that one. Sometimes the ball stops with it in his hands. If he doesn’t come back I think Wilcher might.

Wilcher/Paul have nothing to do with each other, it was Johnson. I like Johnson as well, but at this point you keep the younger guy with 4 years left over then one with one left, JMO.

[bleedXblue]

Wilcher/Paul have nothing to do with each other, it was Johnson. I like Johnson as well, but at this point you keep the younger guy with 4 years left over then one with one left, JMO.

Exactly. Also the guy that you touted as a great shooter.

So, there is the possibility that something else was/is going on. Could be any number of things. Coaching style, playing style, general state of program, homesick (heard nothing of this) etc etc.

[xavierj]

Wilcher/Paul have nothing to do with each other, it was Johnson. I like Johnson as well, but at this point you keep the younger guy with 4 years left over then one with one left, JMO.

No they actually do have a lot to do with each other. Nate is nothing but a 2 and Wilcher is a 4 and maybe a 3. It all comes down to playing time. If both Paul and Nate come back than his PT is going to be reduced. If Paul does not come back then a lot more minutes are available.

[xavierj]

Exactly. Also the guy that you touted as a great shooter.

So, there is the possibility that something else was/is going on. Could be any number of things. Coaching style, playing style, general state of program, homesick (heard nothing of this) etc etc.

I don’t think so. I think Cj was very happy to be at Xavier and likes being here. He just wants to play a lot.

[XUGRAD80]

I would never agree with a coach guaranteeing a player minutes. I really liked Wilcher, and thought he had a really good career ahead of him at X, but if it’s true that he wanted a guarantee, and that when he didn’t get it he walked, then I say that’s on him. Not the coach.

I believe that it was more in line with Wilcher asking the coach were he fit in, who all was going to make up the roster next year, and what kind of role the coach foresaw for him? And then he didn’t hear that he was expected to be a huge part of the makeup. That others were going to be counted on more, and that the incoming freshman and transfers, who are all taller then him, would be given an opportunity to play too. He decided to leave.

I doubt very seriously that Steele forced him out or told him he wouldn’t be playing. Nor did he promise to build the team around him.

I’d compare it to a QB who is a great runner finding out the team is going to a passing game the next year. Coach says that he’ll have the opportunity to win the starting job but will need to show that he can pass better than another player. Kid decides to transfer. Wilcher probably got told he needed to become stronger and become a better rebounder, and play better defense.....if he wanted to play more. He decided he’s a shooter and that other teams need him more than X say they do.

[xavierj]

That's a statement you have to back up with some more info or inside knowledge.

No that is just a guess. I think he is looking for playing time and if Paul doesn’t come back that’s another 32-35 minutes available.

[markchal]

Exactly. Also the guy that you touted as a great shooter.

So, there is the possibility that something else was/is going on. Could be any number of things. Coaching style, playing style, general state of program, homesick (heard nothing of this) etc etc.


Steele HAS to make the tournament next year, or he's gone, and likely Wilcher (and others) would transfer then anyway. It makes total and complete sense that he'd prefer Nate back. Of course he'd rather Wilch stay, but Wilcher isn't going to give you ANYWHERE close to what Wilcher will next season. Wilcher is a liability on D (not our only one of course), and Johnson will be one of our best defenders, in addition to being one of the best shooters in the country.

[throwbackmuskie]

No they actually do have a lot to do with each other. Nate is nothing but a 2 and Wilcher is a 4 and maybe a 3. It all comes down to playing time. If both Paul and Nate come back than his PT is going to be reduced. If Paul does not come back then a lot more minutes are available.

Agree to disagree, but it was reported that Wilcher was set to come back, until Johnson announced he was coming back.

[bleedXblue]

Steele HAS to make the tournament next year, or he's gone, and likely Wilcher (and others) would transfer then anyway. It makes total and complete sense that he'd prefer Nate back. Of course he'd rather Wilch stay, but Wilcher isn't going to give you ANYWHERE close to what Wilcher will next season. Wilcher is a liability on D (not our only one of course), and Johnson will be one of our best defenders, in addition to being one of the best shooters in the country.

This is non sense and either way on Steele.

1. He recruited Wilcher as a great shooter
2. You can improve defensively. He was just a frosh. Nate's a good defender but lets not get carried away.
3. We've had coaches leave before and didn't have mass exodus from the program
4. Nate averaged 11 PPG in 30+ minutes of play. If you can't get that out of Wilcher next year, you either missed on the recruitment or development side.

[drudy23]

Starting or not starting, Wilcher seemed to be one of the guys as part of the core of the future. You can't lose those guys.

But how can you blame him if Steele decides to use him in the same way as this past year as a sophomore? I agree, he could have been a 10 PPG guy next year, which would have been great.

[GoMuskies]

It blows my mind that anyone would seriously suggest that Steele should have told Nate thanks but no thanks on coming back for next year. A guy who was leading the nation in three point shooting shortly before going out for the season for a team that has been atrocious shooting the three. Makes zero sense.

[bleedXblue]

It blows my mind that anyone would seriously suggest that Steele should have told Nate thanks but no thanks on coming back for next year. A guy who was leading the nation in three point shooting shortly before going out for the season for a team that has been atrocious shooting the three. Makes zero sense.

It blows my mind that we're in the situation that we are.

Why would you go out and pull in TWO shooting guard transfers last year AFTER having signed CJ and not expect an issue?

Nate was a one year guy all along until the option became available to play another year.

Again, a situation created by our current head coach.

I like both Nate and Kunkel, but these aren't McDonald's All Americans he brought in. They are nice players.

IMHO a bone headed move and one that he should have fully expected CJ to have issue with.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Wilcher/Paul have nothing to do with each other, it was Johnson. I like Johnson as well, but at this point you keep the younger guy with 4 years left over then one with one left, JMO.

This might be true IF Steele was on solid footing and not a bad year away from being fired. For next year alone (which is all Steele is guaranteed at this point) Johnson is the much better overall player.

If that is the reason Wilcher left I just really dont get it. He still would have had a solid role to play as only a sophomore. I don't fault him for whatever he wants to do but definitely confusing to me why he would bail just bc Johnson coming back. I have a feeling there is more to it than that.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don’t think so. I think Cj was very happy to be at Xavier and likes being here. He just wants to play a lot.

So he was afraid he couldn't measure up?

[GoMuskies]

I mean, CJ is also not a McDonald's All-American. We have to have multiple good players on the team. If CJ Wilcher thinks he's so good that Xavier shouldn't recruit (or retain) OTHER good players at his position, then he's completely delusional.

CJ should have played more down the stretch this year (maybe in the second half against Butler?). He should have had some of the minutes that Jason Carter squandered. But there is NO WAY you tell the best three point shooter on a shitty shooting team that you don't want him back.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is non sense and either way on Steele.

1. He recruited Wilcher as a great shooter
2. You can improve defensively. He was just a frosh. Nate's a good defender but lets not get carried away.
3. We've had coaches leave before and didn't have mass exodus from the program
4. Nate averaged 11 PPG in 30+ minutes of play. If you can't get that out of Wilcher next year, you either missed on the recruitment or development side.

It isn't nonsense at all. Johnson is a much better overall player than Wilcher right now. How anyone could dispute that is completely beyond me.

As for the part I bolded, losing a coach due to him taking another job and than hiring his top assistant is a lot different for a program than firing a head coach and his whole staff because they didn't get the job done. Firing a coach would be a completely different situation and the players would be starting over brand new with coaches they dont know as opposed to a coach who was one of their assistants. Way different, and in a time here they could transfer without sitting out.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It blows my mind that anyone would seriously suggest that Steele should have told Nate thanks but no thanks on coming back for next year. A guy who was leading the nation in three point shooting shortly before going out for the season for a team that has been atrocious shooting the three. Makes zero sense.

Right there with you. :sign-wtf:

[bleedXblue]

This might be true IF Steele was on solid footing and not a bad year away from being fired. For next year alone (which is all Steele is guaranteed at this point) Johnson is the much better overall player.

If that is the reason Wilcher left I just really dont get it. He still would have had a solid role to play as only a sophomore. I don't fault him for whatever he wants to do but definitely confusing to me why he would bail just bc Johnson coming back. I have a feeling there is more to it than that.

B/c you have Kunkel there too? Way too crowded at the SG spot. Add Scruggs there too if he returns b/c Odom should play PG 25 MPG next year minimum

[D-West & PO-Z]

It blows my mind that we're in the situation that we are.

Why would you go out and pull in TWO shooting guard transfers last year AFTER having signed CJ and not expect an issue?

Nate was a one year guy all along until the option became available to play another year.

Again, a situation created by our current head coach.

I like both Nate and Kunkel, but these aren't McDonald's All Americans he brought in. They are nice players.

IMHO a bone headed move and one that he should have fully expected CJ to have issue with.

So your opinion is not to amass as many talented guys as we can, in order to get more playing time for younger less talented guys so they stay and HOPEFULLY become as talented as the guys we could have had but said no to?

Ok.....

[IM4X]

It blows my mind that we're in the situation that we are.

Why would you go out and pull in TWO shooting guard transfers last year AFTER having signed CJ and not expect an issue?

Nate was a one year guy all along until the option became available to play another year.

Again, a situation created by our current head coach.

I like both Nate and Kunkel, but these aren't McDonald's All Americans he brought in. They are nice players.

IMHO a bone headed move and one that he should have fully expected CJ to have issue with.

Actually- I completely get why he went after those two - we have been such a crappy shooting team for several years - it’s a big reason why we didn’t make the dance the Steele’s first two years. Getting a few transfers who can really shoot helps solves that immediate need and it also buys him a year or two to allow young players like Wilcher to develop. Without Nate and Kunkel this year - we win maybe 10 games and maybe Travis ends up on the chopping block like WoJo. It was a smart strategic move for him.

Second, I freaking love Nate Johnson. He is like marvelous Malcolm Bernard all over again - but an even better shooter. I think Kunkel is a solid pick up too. Adding these two players is not the issue. If Nate coming back is really the reason Wilcher is transferring, I would say he jumped the gun and should have been patient. My hunch is that his leaving has more to do with him questioning if he was ever going to be a starter on the team. Maybe Steele and he had a conversation and he did not like what he heard- maybe he looks at what happened with Kyky and thinks “I’m going to transfer before I let that shit happen to me.”

[bleedXblue]

So your opinion is not to amass as many talented guys as we can, in order to get more playing time for younger less talented guys so they stay and HOPEFULLY become as talented as the guys we could have had but said no to?

Ok.....

You don't recruit over 4 star SG's with high potential with TWO guys who are going to take his minutes and opportunity to develop. I was totally on board with both guys coming in this past year as we had a huge hole to fill and needed some experience. CJ had his frosh year to learn and grow which is totally normal.

So to use your silly analogy, how would you feel if Travis brought more talented guys this year at the SG spot? Hell lets just bring in 2-3 more why not? Makes no sense. We need PG help (assuming Scruggs doesn't return), post help in at least 2 guys to help Free assuming the frosh aren't ready. We have no idea on Miles.

[IM4X]

We need PG help (assuming Scruggs doesn't return), post help in at least 2 guys to help Free assuming the frosh aren't ready. We have no idea on Miles.

This is true. We need a big banger/stopper/rebounder more than anything to help Free in the paint. We also need another PG. Maybe this puts CJ in a tough spot- He is not big enough to be a big or good enough with ball handling to be a PG and maybe he is not quick enough to be a starting guard in the BE. I do like the kid a lot and thought he was much more effective in the paint than Carter- should have been given more of his Carter’s for sure . Just wonder if saw what Steele was looking to create and decided he was not going to be as perfect of a fit as he was originally sold he would.

[drudy23]

There just doesn't seem to be much of a plan with recruits. If there's a guy available, we go after him regardless of what we already have. I think this was Steele's point in the "the transfer market is here to stay, get used to it" comment.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to go out and recruit and then constantly bring in guys to overshadow the guys you recruited. The recruiting pipeline is infinitely more important.

It was obvious Carter and Kunkel were desired over their alternatives. You don't think the recruits see that? Why would they put up with it, especially when the guys playing ahead of them might not even be better now or in the long run.

If your transfers are preferred over your recruits, doesn't that call out your recruiting?

[IM4X]

There just doesn't seem to be much of a plan with recruits. If there's a guy available, we go after him regardless of what we already have. I think this was Steele's point in the "the transfer market is here to stay, get used to it" comment.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to go out and recruit and then constantly bring in guys to overshadow the guys you recruited. The recruiting pipeline is infinitely more important.

It was obvious Carter and Kunkel were desired over their alternatives. You don't think the recruits see that? Why would they put up with it, especially when the guys playing ahead of them might not even be better now or in the long run.

If your transfers are preferred over your recruits, doesn't that call out your recruiting?

If you are talented enough -whether you are a high school recruit or transfer - you will out play the competition and get the bulk of the playing time. I would never want to pass on a talented guy who might be better than what I have. The problem really occurs when your coach is not able to distinguish which player is playing better. Sometimes it was very clear Steele was not playing the better talent or at least the hot hand. That is a much bigger issue- which is not really being fair to your players.

[Xavier]

I do think overall roster needs to be built better but I don't mind if they continue going after similar players as well. I would take as many swings at guards/swing players as I can (with left over scholarships after addressing needs). It isn't necessarily recruiting over current players....but landing game changers at that position can change the trajectory of a program and IMO can be worth over recruiting that position in hopes of finding that.

[D-West & PO-Z]

You don't recruit over 4 star SG's with high potential with TWO guys who are going to take his minutes and opportunity to develop. I was totally on board with both guys coming in this past year as we had a huge hole to fill and needed some experience. CJ had his frosh year to learn and grow which is totally normal.

So to use your silly analogy, how would you feel if Travis brought more talented guys this year at the SG spot? Hell lets just bring in 2-3 more why not? Makes no sense. We need PG help (assuming Scruggs doesn't return), post help in at least 2 guys to help Free assuming the frosh aren't ready. We have no idea on Miles.

We needed SG help when we brought those guys in though, so I don't get your comparison.

Also Wilcher isnt even a SG.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I do think overall roster needs to be built better but I don't mind if they continue going after similar players as well. I would take as many swings at guards/swing players as I can (with left over scholarships after addressing needs). It isn't necessarily recruiting over current players....but landing game changers at that position can change the trajectory of a program and IMO can be worth over recruiting that position in hopes of finding that.

Yes this is my stance as well.

[throwbackmuskie]

This might be true IF Steele was on solid footing and not a bad year away from being fired. For next year alone (which is all Steele is guaranteed at this point) Johnson is the much better overall player.

If that is the reason Wilcher left I just really dont get it. He still would have had a solid role to play as only a sophomore. I don't fault him for whatever he wants to do but definitely confusing to me why he would bail just bc Johnson coming back. I have a feeling there is more to it than that.

Here is the thing, sure for us fans it looks like make or break for next year with Steele, maybe it is. If that is the case I guess you can trade your future for a quick fix. If you are trying to build for the future, both near and long, Wilcher is the guy you keep. I will add this, if I am a HS player being recruited and see all this guys leaving because transfers are being brought in, I am thinking long and hard about going to X.

[xavierj]

Here is the thing, sure for us fans it looks like make or break for next year with Steele, maybe it is. If that is the case I guess you can trade your future for a quick fix. If you are trying to build for the future, both near and long, Wilcher is the guy you keep. I will add this, if I am a HS player being recruited and see all this guys leaving because transfers are being brought in, I am thinking long and hard about going to X.

You do realize what you says about Xavier is literally going on all over the country, correct? The NCAA tourney is littered with teams with transfers making big impacts. To be honest I expect teams to take less traditional HS kids with the changes and look at freshman looking to transfer after year 1.

[xuwillie]

You do realize what you says about Xavier is literally going on all over the country, correct? The NCAA tourney is littered with teams with transfers making big impacts

But why I think you’ll also see a growing trend of mid majors doing well. Playing together for years has to help team chemistry.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Here is the thing, sure for us fans it looks like make or break for next year with Steele, maybe it is. If that is the case I guess you can trade your future for a quick fix. If you are trying to build for the future, both near and long, Wilcher is the guy you keep. I will add this, if I am a HS player being recruited and see all this guys leaving because transfers are being brought in, I am thinking long and hard about going to X.

So, you are Steele in this situation, Johnson, your best 3 point shooter by far and probably your best defender from last years team, comes to you and says "coach, I'm coming back!". You (as Steele) are saying, "Nate, would love to have you back, but I am afraid CJ ight transfer if you do, sorry we don't have a spot for you."??

I mean is this real life? So now we can't take rally good transfers because freshman might be mad about their playing time? And recruits don't like that the best guys play? Is this what we are saying here?

Tlk about things that will set a program back. Not taking talented players who want to come to your program because you are trying to predict how a junior in high school you are recruiting will react to that news.

[throwbackmuskie]

You do realize what you says about Xavier is literally going on all over the country, correct? The NCAA tourney is littered with teams with transfers making big impacts. To be honest I expect teams to take less traditional HS kids with the changes and look at freshman looking to transfer after year 1.

I fully get it, this year the portal is going to be a even bigger mess.

Villanova is the gold standard in our league. That is who we are looking to take out, in a way, they are the model.

2020- No transfers out or in.
2019- 3 out (only one was good) and only 1 in.
2018- No transfers our or in.

They are able to bring in high level recruits, keep them, not have to go to the portal and are on top of the league. I understood some of our previous transfer problems, and yes we have had success with bringing a guy or two in, but the amount we are looking at now is not going to help long term, and has not really helped in the near term either.

[throwbackmuskie]

So, you are Steele in this situation, Johnson, your best 3 point shooter by far and probably your best defender from last years team, comes to you and says "coach, I'm coming back!". You (as Steele) are saying, "Nate, would love to have you back, but I am afraid CJ ight transfer if you do, sorry we don't have a spot for you."??

I mean is this real life? So now we can't take rally good transfers because freshman might be mad about their playing time? And recruits don't like that the best guys play? Is this what we are saying here?

Tlk about things that will set a program back. Not taking talented players who want to come to your program because you are trying to predict how a junior in high school you are recruiting will react to that news.

Again what is more important to the program? A guy with a high ceiling who has 3/4 more years or a guy with one year, coming off an injury?

In a perfect world I would keep both, I think Johnson was a great pick up, and wish he had 3/4 years left to play.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Again what is more important to the program? A guy with a high ceiling who has 3/4 more years or a guy with one year, coming off an injury?

In a perfect world I would keep both, I think Johnson was a great pick up, and wish he had 3/4 years left to play.

So your answer is, if you were Steele, you would have told Johnson there was no spot for him?

[throwbackmuskie]

So your answer is, if you were Steele, you would have told Johnson there was no spot for him?

IF this is the main reason Wilcher is leaving, yes. When Johnson was brought it, it was originally for a year. Of course if I was Steele Wilcher toward the end of the season would have gotten most of Carter's minutes so I believe I would be able to have my cake and eat it to, but not losing either.

[BandDad]

So I look at this back and forth and here is what I don't get. The jury is still out for me on Steele - I often don't get his playing rotation patterns. That being said, he is being villified for two things on this board.

The first is for playing Carter. As I said before, Carter was the only one that could handle any of the big men defensively, so if he didn't play, we would have given up a tone more points on that end as Freemantle couldn't play the bigs and would have gotten into even earlier foul trouble. Now Carter was a wreck on the offensive end, but you have to be able to stop the other team some.

Second is losing players to the transfer portal. I have read several articles in the last couple of days that says the total number of transfers is expected to total 1,000 - 1,200 by the time all is said and done. If there are roughly 350 teams in college basketball, that means on average teams are losing 3-4 players to the portal. This f***ed up season and the extra year of eligibility has screwed up everything, so this is definitely not just an XU or Travis Steele issue. North Carolina just lost a five-star freshman recruit from last year to the portal. It is happening to everyone.

All that being said, the proof is in the pudding. Steele needs to coming up with a winning, tournament team next year or he will be on thin ice. We have plenty of options at the 1 through the 3 positions. We need to beef up on the inside and get Stanley back and I believe all will be good again.

[xavierj]

I fully get it, this year the portal is going to be a even bigger mess.

Villanova is the gold standard in our league. That is who we are looking to take out, in a way, they are the model.

2020- No transfers out or in.
2019- 3 out (only one was good) and only 1 in.
2018- No transfers our or in.

They are able to bring in high level recruits, keep them, not have to go to the portal and are on top of the league. I understood some of our previous transfer problems, and yes we have had success with bringing a guy or two in, but the amount we are looking at now is not going to help long term, and has not really helped in the near term either.

Villanova has a guy who starts that just transferred prior to this season. Also had the guy that was pretty good a couple of years ago that was from Fordham. And Joe Cremo two years ago. Also lost 5 star Quineraly to Alabama last year. They have had guys transfer and and leave so can’t use them.

[throwbackmuskie]

Villanova has a guy who starts that just transferred prior to this season. Also had the guy that was pretty good a couple of years ago that was from Fordham. And Joe Cremo two years ago. Also lost 5 star Quineraly to Alabama last year. They have had guys transfer and and leave so can’t use them.

My point was their amount of lack there of compared to ours.

[xavierj]

My point was their amount of lack there of compared to ours.

They also didn’t have 1 single 2020 recruit signed. They limit how many guys they have and play about 7 guys. Jay doesn’t like to have 11 or 12 guys on ships because he knows you can’t keep them happy.

[throwbackmuskie]

They also didn’t have 1 single 2020 recruit signed. They limit how many guys they have and play about 7 guys. Jay doesn’t like to have 11 or 12 guys on ships because he knows you can’t keep them happy.

Which has worked out well for them, where as Steele takes guys who are either a project or a reach.

[bleedXblue]

We needed SG help when we brought those guys in though, so I don't get your comparison.

Also Wilcher isnt even a SG.

CJ is a 2/3

He was brought in to shoot the ball

[bleedXblue]

There just doesn't seem to be much of a plan with recruits. If there's a guy available, we go after him regardless of what we already have. I think this was Steele's point in the "the transfer market is here to stay, get used to it" comment.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to go out and recruit and then constantly bring in guys to overshadow the guys you recruited. The recruiting pipeline is infinitely more important.

It was obvious Carter and Kunkel were desired over their alternatives. You don't think the recruits see that? Why would they put up with it, especially when the guys playing ahead of them might not even be better now or in the long run.

If your transfers are preferred over your recruits, doesn't that call out your recruiting?

spot on

[D-West & PO-Z]

CJ is a 2/3

He was brought in to shoot the ball

And he shoots it significantly worse than Nate. 11% worse from 3.

Also CJ could never play the 2 spot in the BE. C'mon, now you just sound ridiculous.

[throwbackmuskie]

And he shoots it significantly worse than Nate. 11% worse from 3.

Also CJ could never play the 2 spot in the BE. C'mon, now you just sound ridiculous.

Sure, of course Johnson took 93-3s while CJ only took 29. Not really a fair comparison at this point. I meant Johnson shot 17% his freshman year of 3.

No one is saying Johnson isn't a good player or we want to kick him to the curb, I would love to keep both. All I am saying it moving forward I think CJ is the one to keep.

[bleedXblue]

And he shoots it significantly worse than Nate. 11% worse from 3.

Also CJ could never play the 2 spot in the BE. C'mon, now you just sound ridiculous.

Nate Johnson shot 17% from 3 as a frosh at Gardner Webb. CJ comes in as a frosh and knocks down 35%. EVERYONE can see that CJ's gonna be a good player and great shooter.

CJ isn't a great ball handler, but that doesn't mean he couldn't improve that and lots of other things over the next 2-3 years.

[MHettel]

So I look at this back and forth and here is what I don't get. The jury is still out for me on Steele - I often don't get his playing rotation patterns. That being said, he is being villified for two things on this board.

The first is for playing Carter. As I said before, Carter was the only one that could handle any of the big men defensively, so if he didn't play, we would have given up a tone more points on that end as Freemantle couldn't play the bigs and would have gotten into even earlier foul trouble. Now Carter was a wreck on the offensive end, but you have to be able to stop the other team some.

Second is losing players to the transfer portal. I have read several articles in the last couple of days that says the total number of transfers is expected to total 1,000 - 1,200 by the time all is said and done. If there are roughly 350 teams in college basketball, that means on average teams are losing 3-4 players to the portal. This f***ed up season and the extra year of eligibility has screwed up everything, so this is definitely not just an XU or Travis Steele issue. North Carolina just lost a five-star freshman recruit from last year to the portal. It is happening to everyone.

All that being said, the proof is in the pudding. Steele needs to coming up with a winning, tournament team next year or he will be on thin ice. We have plenty of options at the 1 through the 3 positions. We need to beef up on the inside and get Stanley back and I believe all will be good again.

a few counterpoints:

Even WITH Carter, we had a bad interior defense. So you either have a REALLY Bad interior defense without Carter, or you can have just a BAD interior defense WITH him and then play 4 on 5 offensively. How would EITHER of these options be seriously considered?

ALTERNATIVES
- Try Miles. I understand he's a string bean. But he's got more potential as a rim protector than Carter had. Have the guards play a little closer to the guys on the perimeter and make sure Miles is there to defend the drives.
- Or Griffin. Same thing. Big dude down low could body up with the opposing bigs.

Neither Miles nor Griffin would be an offensive threat.....but on the other hand they wouldn't be taking a bunch of 3's and hitting 18%. Griffin shot 59% from the floor. Carter shot 38%. Carter took 114 shots and made 43. Griffin at 59% would have made 67, or 24 more. I don't REALLY believe that we can just substitute one shooting percentage for another, but I'm not convinced that Griffin would not have been at least as effective defensively and pretty significantly more efficient offensively.

OR, of course we could have abandoned our pre-determined half court system when it was clear we didn't have the personnel to run it. We had SEVEN guys that could play 1-2-3. Odom, Scruggs, Jones, Wilcher, Tandy, Kunkle and Johnson. We had at least 5 guys that could take some front court minutes (Free, Carter, Griffin, Stanley, Miles). So why exactly, given this roster composition, didn't we get out and run some more and actually use this depth? I realize there are some good starting 5's in the Big East, but don't you think we match up incredibly well when we force the game to go deeper into the bench.

We could have just outgunned teams. We had the horses. But instead we played shit defense and 4 on 5 offense. If that aint coaching, then what the hell is?

[GoMuskies]

Steele should have given Wilcher more playing time at the end of the last year. Next year Wilcher could still play 25 minutes even with Jones, Kunkel and Johnson all getting significant minutes as well. Steele either not being able to figure that out and communicate that to Wilcher OR Wilcher's refusal to accept that we need other good players at his position was the problem. Steele happily accepting Johnson back is decidedly NOT the problem.

[Masterofreality]

a few counterpoints:

Even WITH Carter, we had a bad interior defense. So you either have a REALLY Bad interior defense without Carter, or you can have just a BAD interior defense WITH him and then play 4 on 5 offensively. How would EITHER of these options be seriously considered?

ALTERNATIVES
- Try Miles. I understand he's a string bean. But he's got more potential as a rim protector than Carter had. Have the guards play a little closer to the guys on the perimeter and make sure Miles is there to defend the drives.
- Or Griffin. Same thing. Big dude down low could body up with the opposing bigs.

Neither Miles nor Griffin would be an offensive threat.....but on the other hand they wouldn't be taking a bunch of 3's and hitting 18%. Griffin shot 59% from the floor. Carter shot 38%. Carter took 114 shots and made 43. Griffin at 59% would have made 67, or 24 more. I don't REALLY believe that we can just substitute one shooting percentage for another, but I'm not convinced that Griffin would not have been at least as effective defensively and pretty significantly more efficient offensively.

OR, of course we could have abandoned our pre-determined half court system when it was clear we didn't have the personnel to run it. We had SEVEN guys that could play 1-2-3. Odom, Scruggs, Jones, Wilcher, Tandy, Kunkle and Johnson. We had at least 5 guys that could take some front court minutes (Free, Carter, Griffin, Stanley, Miles). So why exactly, given this roster composition, didn't we get out and run some more and actually use this depth? I realize there are some good starting 5's in the Big East, but don't you think we match up incredibly well when we force the game to go deeper into the bench.

We could have just outgunned teams. We had the horses. But instead we played shit defense and 4 on 5 offense. If that aint coaching, then what the hell is?

Hett with the spot on again.
And Carter was not some “lockdown defender”. He was a system defender, who, when on an island, got burned time and again.
This describes perfectly the misuse of last year’s roster....the continuation of which for 3 years now.

[IM4X]

Steele should have given Wilcher more playing time at the end of the last year. Next year Wilcher could still play 25 minutes even with Jones, Kunkel and Johnson all getting significant minutes as well. Steele either not being able to figure that out and communicate that to Wilcher OR Wilcher's refusal to accept that we need other good players at his position was the problem. Steele happily accepting Johnson back is decidedly NOT the problem.

Yes indeed. Don’t hate on Nate!

Nate is not the problem. Nohow. Not now. Not ever.

Nate the Great!

[IM4X]

a few counterpoints:

Even WITH Carter, we had a bad interior defense. So you either have a REALLY Bad interior defense without Carter, or you can have just a BAD interior defense WITH him and then play 4 on 5 offensively. How would EITHER of these options be seriously considered?

ALTERNATIVES
- Try Miles. I understand he's a string bean. But he's got more potential as a rim protector than Carter had. Have the guards play a little closer to the guys on the perimeter and make sure Miles is there to defend the drives.
- Or Griffin. Same thing. Big dude down low could body up with the opposing bigs.

Neither Miles nor Griffin would be an offensive threat.....but on the other hand they wouldn't be taking a bunch of 3's and hitting 18%. Griffin shot 59% from the floor. Carter shot 38%. Carter took 114 shots and made 43. Griffin at 59% would have made 67, or 24 more. I don't REALLY believe that we can just substitute one shooting percentage for another, but I'm not convinced that Griffin would not have been at least as effective defensively and pretty significantly more efficient offensively.

OR, of course we could have abandoned our pre-determined half court system when it was clear we didn't have the personnel to run it. We had SEVEN guys that could play 1-2-3. Odom, Scruggs, Jones, Wilcher, Tandy, Kunkle and Johnson. We had at least 5 guys that could take some front court minutes (Free, Carter, Griffin, Stanley, Miles). So why exactly, given this roster composition, didn't we get out and run some more and actually use this depth? I realize there are some good starting 5's in the Big East, but don't you think we match up incredibly well when we force the game to go deeper into the bench.

We could have just outgunned teams. We had the horses. But instead we played shit defense and 4 on 5 offense. If that aint coaching, then what the hell is?

Good post.

One change - you might even agree with- Griffin might have been a bit of an offensive threat if he had played as many minutes as Carter. I honestly think he could have consistently put up 8-10 points, had a few more boards per game and maybe an extra block a game.

[MHettel]

Good post.

One change - you might even agree with- Griffin might have been a bit of an offensive threat if he had played as many minutes as Carter. I honestly think he could have consistently put up 8-10 points, had a few more boards per game and maybe an extra block a game.

Yes, for sure. Carter took 3's and tried to drive to the basket pretty often. He missed regularly, and was often just denied on the drive. It seemed like MOST of Carters points came on little shovel passes or putbacks when the defense was kind of looking the other way at the rim. I really cant recall Carter just creating a shot of his own or driving to the rim successfully. I'm sure it happened, but I just remember the flailing and bricks. Oh, and when he got fouled.....more bricks.

There is no way that Griffin would NOT have been able to at least replace the actual Productivity, and we wouldn't have had to witness the bricks from 3 or the "drives" that resulted in some shit just chucked up to the rim. And, based on the limited time we actually got to see him play, it was clear that Griffin was a far more physical big that was SORELY lacking in our starting lineup and rotation in general.

I really cannot see how any other player could not have matched Carters productivity if they played those minutes.

[throwbackmuskie]

Steele should have given Wilcher more playing time at the end of the last year. Next year Wilcher could still play 25 minutes even with Jones, Kunkel and Johnson all getting significant minutes as well. Steele either not being able to figure that out and communicate that to Wilcher OR Wilcher's refusal to accept that we need other good players at his position was the problem. Steele happily accepting Johnson back is decidedly NOT the problem.

I hope you are not thinking I said Johnson was the problem, I am only saying A reason why Wilcher is leaving is because Johnson is coming back. I agree this has been mishandled by Steele.

[IM4X]

Yes, for sure. Carter took 3's and tried to drive to the basket pretty often. He missed regularly, and was often just denied on the drive. It seemed like MOST of Carters points came on little shovel passes or putbacks when the defense was kind of looking the other way at the rim. I really cant recall Carter just creating a shot of his own or driving to the rim successfully. I'm sure it happened, but I just remember the flailing and bricks. Oh, and when he got fouled.....more bricks.

There is no way that Griffin would NOT have been able to at least replace the actual Productivity, and we wouldn't have had to witness the bricks from 3 or the "drives" that resulted in some shit just chucked up to the rim. And, based on the limited time we actually got to see him play, it was clear that Griffin was a far more physical big that was SORELY lacking in our starting lineup and rotation in general.

I really cannot see how any other player could not have matched Carters productivity if they played those minutes.

Completely agree about Griffin.

I am convinced Carter would have played better with less minutes and if they kind of found a better way to use him- He just almost always looked out of position- almost in the way of the other players. He played way more timid than I think he is capable - I would have challenged him to Throw down more dunks instead of going for those layups (that he so often bricked). It might have built up his confidence a little.

Still scratching my head about all that playing time of his too- like most other fans.

[BandDad]

Completely agree about Griffin.

I am convinced Carter would have played better with less minutes and if they kind of found a better way to use him- He just almost always looked out of position- almost in the way of the other players. He played way more timid than I think he is capable - I would have challenged him to Throw down more dunks instead of going for those layups (that he so often bricked). It might have built up his confidence a little.

Still scratching my head about all that playing time of his too- like most other fans.

So I agree that our defense was not good with Carter, but I think it would have been far worse had he played less. The offense would have been better, but would have that compensated enough. We unfortunately will never know.

I would have loved to have seen Griffin get more minutes, but he apparently was not in great game shape earlier in the year and then he contracted COVID and fell further behind in his conditioning. Both Miles and Ramsey were unavailable for various games this year due to injuries and ailments, so I don't want to speculate on their availability.

Which leads me to this conclusion. If you don't have people that can play interior defense, why play a half court game. We had eight or so guys that could play the 1 through 4 positions, so why not make it a helter-skelter full-court game and try to take out the importance of the half-court defense. Press everywhere (like St. John's now or UNLV with Tark the Shark). Change your system to fit your players, not the other way around.

[MHettel]

Which leads me to this conclusion. If you don't have people that can play interior defense, why play a half court game. We had eight or so guys that could play the 1 through 4 positions, so why not make it a helter-skelter full-court game and try to take out the importance of the half-court defense. Press everywhere (like St. John's now or UNLV with Tark the Shark). Change your system to fit your players, not the other way around.

Yup. Exactly. I was making this point early in the season and all the way to the end.

And think about the by product! You have 200 minutes to split between 9 or 10 guys. That's at least 20 MPG for all of them if you just commit to a set rotation. I've seen teams that have 2 lineups of five each and just swap out everyone at the same time. Go 110% for 3-4 minutes and then get a break for 3-4 minutes. REPEAT. At the end of those games, the opponent is WAY more gassed then your team and they are forced to play guys that NEVER get on the floor.

Do you really think we'd have any PT issues and the resulting transfer problems if we gave guys 20MPG and told them to play so hard that they WANT to come out of the game for a breather?

Realistically, you wont always have the horses to play this style. But we DID. And we DIDN'T.

And instead of watching my team play in the NCAA tournament, I'm left reading the headlines that include 3 players and 2 coaches leaving the program.

[xudash]

So I agree that our defense was not good with Carter, but I think it would have been far worse had he played less. The offense would have been better, but would have that compensated enough. We unfortunately will never know.

I would have loved to have seen Griffin get more minutes, but he apparently was not in great game shape earlier in the year and then he contracted COVID and fell further behind in his conditioning. Both Miles and Ramsey were unavailable for various games this year due to injuries and ailments, so I don't want to speculate on their availability.

Which leads me to this conclusion. If you don't have people that can play interior defense, why play a half court game. We had eight or so guys that could play the 1 through 4 positions, so why not make it a helter-skelter full-court game and try to take out the importance of the half-court defense. Press everywhere (like St. John's now or UNLV with Tark the Shark). Change your system to fit your players, not the other way around.

Can't argue with your creativity.

We could say that hindsight is easy. Based on what you wrote, we could say that we had some bad luck in terms of injuries and COVID disruptions. Whatever Travis saw in Carter from that OU versus Xavier game, thinking that he would translate well to the BE, we now know that wasn't true, and that Travis stuck with him for far too long, given the final results. Could the offense have overcome a weaker defense without him seeing major minutes? To your point, we'll never know, but I would love a time machine coupled with a more flexible Steele in order to see if a different look would have led to a better outcome.

I'm beginning to think that Travis will need a miracle in order to make the NCAAT next season. Way too much turnover and disruption to the program at this point. And what does the loss of the assistant mean to the existing recruiting pipeline? Can a new guy bring someone in with him that makes sense?

[whopper]

This may not be the place but as bad as this was for us, what about Seton Hall. They had Mamu, Obijeau(sp), Rhonden, Molson, Cale, Tyrique Samuel(who looks amazing at times, Shamar Reynolds and added Bryce Akin the Ivy leading scorer and are watching now. How is that possible? They looked like world beaters when we played them. There must be some grumbling there for sure

[xuphan]

This may not be the place but as bad as this was for us, what about Seton Hall. They had Mamu, Obijeau(sp), Rhonden, Molson, Cale, Tyrique Samuel(who looks amazing at times, Shamar Reynolds and added Bryce Akin the Ivy leading scorer and are watching now. How is that possible? They looked like world beaters when we played them. There must be some grumbling there for sure

In my opinion, there should be grumbling there as well. Way to much talent in the New Jersey area for Seton Hall not to be a perennial tournament team.

[xukeith]

Completely agree about Griffin.

I am convinced Carter would have played better with less minutes and if they kind of found a better way to use him- He just almost always looked out of position- almost in the way of the other players. He played way more timid than I think he is capable - I would have challenged him to Throw down more dunks instead of going for those layups (that he so often bricked). It might have built up his confidence a little.

Still scratching my head about all that playing time of his too- like most other fans.
He jumped off one foot and dunked but it barely was successful.

[noteggs]

Nate is an asset to this this program and wants to stay. CJ would’ve been an asset to this program, but wants to go. I think I’m going with the guy who wants to stay all day long. Seems pretty simple to me and wish the best for CJ.

[xuphan]

Nate is an asset to this this program and wants to stay. CJ would’ve been an asset to this program, but wants to go. I think I’m going with the guy who wants to stay all day long. Seems pretty simple to me and wish the best for CJ.

Nate is an asset to this program in the short term. CJ would have been an asset to this team in the long term especially if we got his brother as well. I think Steele has to look short term as his job is on the line but I also think he has to do more than just make the tournament once and miss it the next year. He needs to sustain multiple tournament bids in the upcoming years to make me feel confident that he is the right guy for the job.

[MHettel]

Nate is an asset to this program in the short term. CJ would have been an asset to this team in the long term especially if we got his brother as well. I think Steele has to look short term as his job is on the line but I also think he has to do more than just make the tournament once and miss it the next year. He needs to sustain multiple tournament bids in the upcoming years to make me feel confident that he is the right guy for the job.

And I think playing Carter served neither a short term nor a long term objective. 8-10 minutes of Carter's, spread among Wilcher and KyKy, probably puts us in the Tourney, and stabilizes the roster for a few years. But no.

That's it for me. Really the CORE of the Concern. Its one thing when you dont have the pieces or the talent. We chalked up 2 years with that excuse.

This is just a lack of awareness as a coach that he can make changes that can benefit the team. He either couldn't see the changes to be made, or he was too rigid to do it. Doesn't matter really. he failed.

[noteggs]

Nate is an asset to this program in the short term. CJ would have been an asset to this team in the long term especially if we got his brother as well. I think Steele has to look short term as his job is on the line but I also think he has to do more than just make the tournament once and miss it the next year. He needs to sustain multiple tournament bids in the upcoming years to make me feel confident that he is the right guy for the job.

Nope. Want players who want to play here. Period

[MHettel]

Nope. Want players who want to play here. Period

And Players want to be wanted.

Checkmate?

[bleedXblue]

And Players want to be wanted.

Checkmate?

Bingo

[xuphan]

And Players want to be wanted.

Checkmate?

Nailed it!

[UCGRAD4X]

And Players want to be wanted.

Checkmate?

Discussion over.

Seal the thread.

[Masterofreality]

And I think playing Carter served neither a short term nor a long term objective. 8-10 minutes of Carter's, spread among Wilcher and KyKy, probably puts us in the Tourney, and stabilizes the roster for a few years. But no.

That's it for me. Really the CORE of the Concern. Its one thing when you dont have the pieces or the talent. We chalked up 2 years with that excuse.

This is just a lack of awareness as a coach that he can make changes that can benefit the team. He either couldn't see the changes to be made, or he was too rigid to do it. Doesn't matter really. he failed.

Say it louder for the people in the BACK!!!!!

[xavierj]

And I think playing Carter served neither a short term nor a long term objective. 8-10 minutes of Carter's, spread among Wilcher and KyKy, probably puts us in the Tourney, and stabilizes the roster for a few years. But no.

That's it for me. Really the CORE of the Concern. Its one thing when you dont have the pieces or the talent. We chalked up 2 years with that excuse.

This is just a lack of awareness as a coach that he can make changes that can benefit the team. He either couldn't see the changes to be made, or he was too rigid to do it. Doesn't matter really. he failed.

Some of that has to be on the players. CJ was just a freshman and last three games he played 20, 32 and 20 minutes. He would have played at least 20 min a game next year. Kyky I think he should have played more so I get that. But I look at Gonzaga and they have top 50 players that hardly played as freshman and they stick around and it isn’t like they play more than 7 guys. They also get transfers. Their PG played 4 MPG game as a freshman and Anton Watson is a top 50 guy who played 14 mpg game as a freshman. Some of it is on the player too. CJ I guess wants to play SG and play 30 MPG. I don’t blame a coach if he didn’t promise that.

[xuwillie]

I would think the two big differences are Gonzaga has mark few and they send kids to the NBA (believe 2 in the first round in 2019)

[Xville]

Some of that has to be on the players. CJ was just a freshman and last three games he played 20, 32 and 20 minutes. He would have played at least 20 min a game next year. Kyky I think he should have played more so I get that. But I look at Gonzaga and they have top 50 players that hardly played as freshman and they stick around and it isn’t like they play more than 7 guys. They also get transfers. Their PG played 4 MPG game as a freshman and Anton Watson is a top 50 guy who played 14 mpg game as a freshman. Some of it is on the player too. CJ I guess wants to play SG and play 30 MPG. I don’t blame a coach if he didn’t promise that.

So, I think there is a simple explanation for this. Winning cures a lot of issues. For one, when a player goes to Gonzaga or Villanova, those coaches have built up enough cache that players feel Few or Wright are doing what is best for the team at that time, and the players' time will come.

In places like Xavier right now for instance, Steele has proven absolutely zero and quite frankly, if we as fans think he has mishandled lineups and the roster, how do you think the players feel? If I'm Wilcher and I see Jason freaking Carter playing 30 minutes a game taking minutes away from me, I'm of the opinion this coach has no clue what he is doing.

Now I'm speaking in general terms...I know Nova and probably Gonzaga have transfers both in and out, but the reasons for those transfers are probably drastically different than what has occurred at X since Steele took over.

[D-West & PO-Z]

So, I think there is a simple explanation for this. Winning cures a lot of issues. For one, when a player goes to Gonzaga or Villanova, those coaches have built up enough cache that players feel Few or Wright are doing what is best for the team at that time, and the players' time will come.

In places like Xavier right now for instance, Steele has proven absolutely zero and quite frankly, if we as fans think he has mishandled lineups and the roster, how do you think the players feel? If I'm Wilcher and I see Jason freaking Carter playing 30 minutes a game taking minutes away from me, I'm of the opinion this coach has no clue what he is doing.

Now I'm speaking in general terms...I know Nova and probably Gonzaga have transfers both in and out, but the reasons for those transfers are probably drastically different than what has occurred at X since Steele took over.

What I don't get thought is that people keep saying conflictiing things.

On one hand they say CJ as mad that Carter took his mins. Carter plays the 4.

On the other hand they say that CJ is mad Nate came back and was going to take his mins. Nate plays the 2.

Carter is gone, if Carter was taking all these mins from CJ why would he not be getting those mins next year.

I think the biggest issue is CJ probably views himself SG and there is 0% chance he can play SG in the BE. I am guessing Steele wanted CJ to be able to play more of a 3/4 role than a 2/3 role and CJ didn't care for that.

[XUGRAD80]

I am guessing Steele wanted CJ to be able to play more of a 3/4 role than a 2/3 role and CJ didn't care for that.

I would guess that’s pretty much how it went down. I don’t think it was about minutes, but more about what role he would have played during those minutes. All these kids think they are going to be NBA stars and I think CJ is wise enough to know that there is not a place in the NBA for a 6’5” player in a 3/4 role. His only chances are as a 1 or a 2, so he’s goi g to go somewhere that he has the chance to play 4 years at those positions, and not be put into a position where he won’t have a chance to play as a professional.

I’ve no problem with that decision on his part and wish him nothing but the best of luck. Hope he finds what he’s looking for. No different than a kid switching schools to gain a degree in something the first school doesn’t offer. Better for him to do it now than to wait and do it a few years down the road.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Part of me feels that with Wilcher there were outside influences involved. Recruiting is a dirty game and his brother is very highly rated. You have to imagine someone was in the family's ear about how he would be playing more at their school and using him as leverage to get to his brother.

I'm not saying that Wilcher isn't justified in being upset over his playing time, but at the same time he was only a freshman, in a year that doesn't even count against eligibility. There were times he looked great and others where he looked like a freshman.

Just feel like more factors were involved than just playing time.

[Xville]

What I don't get thought is that people keep saying conflictiing things.

On one hand they say CJ as mad that Carter took his mins. Carter plays the 4.

On the other hand they say that CJ is mad Nate came back and was going to take his mins. Nate plays the 2.

Carter is gone, if Carter was taking all these mins from CJ why would he not be getting those mins next year.

I think the biggest issue is CJ probably views himself SG and there is 0% chance he can play SG in the BE. I am guessing Steele wanted CJ to be able to play more of a 3/4 role than a 2/3 role and CJ didn't care for that.

So I think this past year where wilcher could play a lot was the 3 or 4 over carter and wilcher was fine with that for the year, because the following year he probably thought Nate, Scruggs etc will be gone so I’ll be able to slide into the 2 or 3 and be good to go. I think it was the combination of the carter situation and then Nate coming back and the team losing and Steele not getting the benefit of the doubt. Wilcher was probably just like f this I’m out.

[markchal]

Part of me feels that with Wilcher there were outside influences involved. Recruiting is a dirty game and his brother is very highly rated.

this...feels like a pretty wild thing to say unless you have some inside info on it.

[Xville]

When his brother is a freshman won’t wilcher be a senior? Is that right? I think we will know quickly if outside influences were a factor or not by where xu ends up. If it is a blue blood, that’s certainly going to raise some eyebrows

[bobbiemcgee]

The new transfer rules have caused transfers to explode. Guys who would not seek a transfer under the old rules are seeking greener pasture now because they can. May work to Steele's advantage if he can pick off some good ones early. Hope so.

[IM4X]

So I agree that our defense was not good with Carter, but I think it would have been far worse had he played less. The offense would have been better, but would have that compensated enough. We unfortunately will never know.

I would have loved to have seen Griffin get more minutes, but he apparently was not in great game shape earlier in the year and then he contracted COVID and fell further behind in his conditioning. Both Miles and Ramsey were unavailable for various games this year due to injuries and ailments, so I don't want to speculate on their availability.

Which leads me to this conclusion. If you don't have people that can play interior defense, why play a half court game. We had eight or so guys that could play the 1 through 4 positions, so why not make it a helter-skelter full-court game and try to take out the importance of the half-court defense. Press everywhere (like St. John's now or UNLV with Tark the Shark). Change your system to fit your players, not the other way around.

I can’t help but feel bad for Carter as he often never seemed in sync with the rest of the team on the court. Maybe he would have played better if they had pushed the pace on offense and had been more aggressive as a team, like they did in the Creighton game. Remember how aggressive they all paled and remember how Scruggs was making their PG uncomfortable by staying on him the whole way up the floor in that game. I agree with the notion of changing the system to fit the players of you don’t have the right players for that system. I also agree with more pressing. I think if we had done more of it earlier in games (or even from the start) it would have lead to at least a few more wins.

Griffin, Miles and Ramsey did have times where they were unable to play but there were also games down the stretch where they indeed were available and just werenÂ’t put in the game. Personally, Most of us fans are probably feeling it was a big mistake not to play them all (and even CJ) a little bit more in the last three games. I would argue that the results on the floor were usually a bit better when one or more of the those players played a bit more in a game and Carter a little less.

[noteggs]

And Players want to be wanted.

Checkmate?

My original post was about Nate and CJ (think this is Wilcher enters transfer portal thread). So, are you telling me CJ didn’t feel wanted because we welcomed Nate back? If that’s the case, a little early to be doing a victory lap on your part.

[IM4X]

Can’t help but wonder if the “Nate vs CJ” problem is something that exists on the boards but not in reality.

Is it possible CJ leaving has zero to do with Nate coming back?

I would hate to think people are getting upset and picking different player’s sides when the truth may be that CJ left because he felt “The Coach” was going to cut back on his minutes like he did with Kyky his 2nd year on the team. Maybe he asked Travis “How many minutes do you see me getting” and Steele told him he can’t say until next season.

Nate coming back can’t possibly be as big of an issue for CJ as say not fitting into Steele’’s system as a starter or having to share minutes with incoming freshmen -who are in similar roles/position- for three years (or four with COVID).

[MHettel]

My original post was about Nate and CJ (think this is Wilcher enters transfer portal thread). So, are you telling me CJ didn’t feel wanted because we welcomed Nate back? If that’s the case, a little early to be doing a victory lap on your part.

No. I'm saying that your post that "we only want players that want to be here", is the exact mindset to keep this revolving door well oiled.

[MHettel]

Can’t help but wonder if the “Nate vs CJ” problem is something that exists on the boards but not in reality.

Is it possible CJ leaving has zero to do with Nate coming back?

I would hate to think people are getting upset and picking different player’s sides when the truth may be that CJ left because he felt “The Coach” was going to cut back on his minutes like he did with Kyky his 2nd year on the team. Maybe he asked Travis “How many minutes do you see me getting” and Steele told him he can’t say until next season.

Nate coming back can’t possibly be as big of an issue for CJ as say not fitting into Steele’’s system as a starter or having to share minutes with incoming freshmen -who are in similar roles/position- for three years (or four with COVID).

I have no idea why Wilcher left. I have to assume there are a number of Freshmen across the country that just had a MISERABLE experience under the Covid Conditions and don't have any positive experience at the school to balance out the bad experience. Maybe Wilcher is one of those kids, and maybe not. We will never know (probably) WHY he left.

But we DO know that Steele either was OK with him leaving, or failed to convince him to stay.

[IM4X]

I have no idea why Wilcher left. I have to assume there are a number of Freshmen across the country that just had a MISERABLE experience under the Covid Conditions and don't have any positive experience at the school to balance out the bad experience. Maybe Wilcher is one of those kids, and maybe not. We will never know (probably) WHY he left.

But we DO know that Steele either was OK with him leaving, or failed to convince him to stay.

Yeah. We may never know.

What I do know is that I was a big fan of both Nate and CJ. Thought they both played hard and were net positives on the court (and I would assume in the locker room too). It is unfortunate that CJ is leaving- I’d just like an explanation - as would you and many other fans.

Regardless of the real reason he is going, I would never want to make Nate feel bad about coming back. Just as I would never want to make CJ feel bad about coming back if he were the Senior coming back for another year.

[xuphan]

I don’t usually pay attention to that stuff but can you provide some examples other than Chris Mack’s end of the year press conference. And do you expect them to do it on their own, via Twitter or expect someone to ask the question so they can provide a statement? This is one of the most petty things I have ever seen and I see a lot on this site.

Here is another example of a coach commenting on a player leaving the program.

Georgetown sophomore center Qudus Wahab has entered the NCAA transfer portal, the school announced Thursday in a press release.
“Q was an important piece of our success this year and he needs to do what he feels is best for him. I want to wish him luck in his future. After an exciting postseason, we are ready to focus on the 2021-22 season,” head coach Patrick Ewing said.

[Dblue]

Here is another example of a coach commenting on a player leaving the program.

Georgetown sophomore center Qudus Wahab has entered the NCAA transfer portal, the school announced Thursday in a press release.
“Q was an important piece of our success this year and he needs to do what he feels is best for him. I want to wish him luck in his future. After an exciting postseason, we are ready to focus on the 2021-22 season,” head coach Patrick Ewing said.

I don't understand what value a statement in coach speak adds. You could swap this statement with a walk-on's name and it would say just as much as with a starter's name.

[AviatorX]

There are so many valid criticisms of the Steele regime three years in (rotations, tightening up down the stretch, etc.), but many on this board seem fixated on the fact that Steele deals in coach speak 100% of the time, including the SHOCKING act of paying lip service to the idea that playing time is based on practice performance. Truly radical qualities in the world of coaching.

[drudy23]

There are so many valid criticisms of the Steele regime three years in (rotations, tightening up down the stretch, etc.), but many on this board seem fixated on the fact that Steele deals in coach speak 100% of the time, including the SHOCKING act of paying lip service to the idea that playing time is based on practice performance. Truly radical qualities in the world of coaching.

The conundrum of analytics. As with anything else where decisions need to be made, usually more data equals better decisions. But when you use JUST the data as the be-all end-all in decisions, that's when you get into trouble. Rarely does JUST looking at stats give you a full picture. That's where decision making, experience, and knowing the personality of your team comes in.

DEFINITELY use practice stats as part of player assessment, but there should always be other pertinent criteria to help guide decisions.

[AviatorX]

The conundrum of analytics. As with anything else where decisions need to be made, usually more data equals better decisions. But when you use JUST the data as the be-all end-all in decisions, that's when you get into trouble. Rarely does JUST looking at stats give you a full picture. That's where decision making, experience, and knowing the personality of your team comes in.

DEFINITELY use practice stats as part of player assessment, but there should always be other pertinent criteria to help guide decisions.

Right, but there's no evidence that Steele doesn't get this. He needs to execute better, but there's really nothing that points to him being an analytics robot. Just because the output is one we disagree with doesn't mean we can pinpoint the input. It's just a talking point for people on here who are pissed that Steele (wrongly) rode Carter as hard as he did. There is just no way in hell that decision purely boiled down to "well Jason is ranked higher in our practice scoresheet" no matter how many times MOR writes it in all caps and bold. I mean do people actually think that? And save your time everybody, no, Steele mentioning practice earns minutes in his vanilla press conferences does not count. FWIW, Carter was obviously told his role would be diminished if he were to return. Definitely too little too late, but Steele isn't blind.

[drudy23]

Right, but there's no evidence that Steele doesn't get this. .

I'd strongly argue against that. There's plenty of evidence he was aggressively using a drastic emphasis on one metric (practice points) to guide his decision making. What other factors in your mind gave Jason Carter so many minutes? It's a pretty agreed upon principle that he's a quality player when used in a role capacity for 8-12 minutes per game.

Use it as one of many tools to guide decisions - fine

Pridefully unwilling to see past deficiencies in just one metric - creates blinders

[AviatorX]

I'd strongly argue against that. There's plenty of evidence he was aggressively using a drastic emphasis on one metric (practice points) to guide his decision making. What other factors in your mind gave Jason Carter so many minutes? It's a pretty agreed upon principle that he's a quality player when used in a role capacity for 8-12 minutes per game.

Use it as one of many tools to guide decisions - fine

Pridefully unwilling to see past deficiencies in just one metric - creates blinders

For one, didn't it come out that Carter was barely practicing from January on? Second, how do you know what the "practice points" rankings looked like?

I think Steele was over controlling down the stretch and wrongly doubled down on defense, size and rebounding, when he probably would have been more successful opening it up and making the opposite play. He was way too conservative and should have pivoted much, much sooner. I think if Ben Stanley had played this season, things likely would have trended in that more open offensive direction naturally, but it took Steele a lot longer to put CJ Wilcher is that role. In an extreme example, he really clammed up half to half in the Butler BET game.

This was the wrong move, but I really, really don't believe his justification for it was "Jason has 50 practice points and CJ Wilcher has 40." That's absurd.

Remember when Steele highlighted that Miles was having great practices and really racking up "practice points" etc. etc. and then he basically never played still? It's coach speak. It's dumb, but IMO, not worth getting worked up over.

[drudy23]

For one, didn't it come out that Carter was barely practicing from January on? Second, how do you know what the "practice points" rankings looked like?

I think Steele was over controlling down the stretch and wrongly doubled down on defense, size and rebounding, when he probably would have been more successful opening it up and making the opposite play. He was way too conservative and should have pivoted much, much sooner. I think if Ben Stanley had played this season, things likely would have trended in that more open offensive direction naturally, but it took Steele a lot longer to put CJ Wilcher is that role. In an extreme example, he really clammed up half to half in the Butler BET game.

This was the wrong move, but I really, really don't believe his justification for it was "Jason has 50 practice points and CJ Wilcher has 40." That's absurd.

So I will ask again, what's the justification for it in your mind? We're all guessing here - what's your guess?

Because it's blatantly obvious to anyone who paid attention he didn't deserve that many minutes.

[AviatorX]

So I will ask again, what's the justification for it in your mind? We're all guessing here - what's your guess?

Because it's blatantly obvious to anyone who paid attention he didn't deserve that many minutes.

I just wrote it above pretty plainly.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't understand what value a statement in coach speak adds. You could swap this statement with a walk-on's name and it would say just as much as with a starter's name.

Yeah count me confused as well. Why re some people clamoring for this statement of nothing from Steele?

[MHettel]

Right, but there's no evidence that Steele doesn't get this. He needs to execute better, but there's really nothing that points to him being an analytics robot. Just because the output is one we disagree with doesn't mean we can pinpoint the input. It's just a talking point for people on here who are pissed that Steele (wrongly) rode Carter as hard as he did. There is just no way in hell that decision purely boiled down to "well Jason is ranked higher in our practice scoresheet" no matter how many times MOR writes it in all caps and bold. I mean do people actually think that? And save your time everybody, no, Steele mentioning practice earns minutes in his vanilla press conferences does not count. FWIW, Carter was obviously told his role would be diminished if he were to return. Definitely too little too late, but Steele isn't blind.

I could have sworn that on a few occasions at a presser he responded to a question about lack of PT for KYKY by saying "he needs to practice better"

[AviatorX]

I could have sworn that on a few occasions at a presser he responded to a question about lack of PT for KYKY by saying "he needs to practice better"

Is this a weird answer for a coach to give? 99% of college basketball coaches would say the same exact thing, no matter what the situation is internally.

[D-West & PO-Z]

.

[drudy23]

I just wrote it above pretty plainly.

Even with a lack of big men, it still didn't make much sense. That's how bad his stats were when he played significant minutes. It was blatantly obvious a change was needed when we got into Big East play.

You literally could have put in any scholarship player and have gotten better results.

[AviatorX]

Even with a lack of big men, it still didn't make much sense. That's how bad his stats were when he played significant minutes. It was blatantly obvious a change was needed when we got into Big East play.

You literally could have put in any scholarship player and have gotten better results.

Yes, I mentioned in my posts multiple times that it was the wrong move. I think at this point everyone agrees on that front, including Steele, who evidently wasn't going to let the same thing happen next year.

[IM4X]

The conundrum of analytics. As with anything else where decisions need to be made, usually more data equals better decisions. But when you use JUST the data as the be-all end-all in decisions, that's when you get into trouble. Rarely does JUST looking at stats give you a full picture. That's where decision making, experience, and knowing the personality of your team comes in.

DEFINITELY use practice stats as part of player assessment, but there should always be other pertinent criteria to help guide decisions.

One example is “The hot hand.” It never shows up in stats but always seems to perform well throughout much of a particular game. When a guy is “feeling it” and able to “get to his sweet spot” or even able to “play his game” and still be in sync with his teammates in that game- good things happen. Being hyper aware of those types of intangibles and acting upon them as a coach can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Stats can answer WHO made a basket or HOW many rebounds player X got, but it doesn’t necessarily tell you WHY that happened. There are certain intangibles like confidence and tenacity that can show up in a player at a particular stretch of time or in a particular situation that can play a huge factor in momentum and chemistry that ultimately play into how well a team does on any given day.

The coach who understands how this works best has a big advantage- the coach who doesn’t often comes up short in games, squandering opportunity after opportunity by either screwing with what is working (messing with momentum) or not realizing WHY something isn’t working or even which players aren’t clicking in their role on offense or defense of a real game and why.

[Lloyd Braun]

Wilcher heading to Nebraska

[AviatorX]

Wilcher to Nebraska, ensuring that the last we'll hear about his college career is the eternal Wilcher vs. Carter at the 4 in 2021 debate that we will all have until the day we die.

[drudy23]

One example is “The hot hand.” It never shows up in stats but always seems to perform well throughout much of a particular game. When a guy is “feeling it” and able to “get to his sweet spot” or even able to “play his game” and still be in sync with his teammates in that game- good things happen. Being hyper aware of those types of intangibles and acting upon them as a coach can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Stats can answer WHO made a basket or HOW many rebounds player X got, but it doesn’t necessarily tell you WHY that happened. There are certain intangibles like confidence and tenacity that can show up in a player at a particular stretch of time or in a particular situation that can play a huge factor in momentum and chemistry that ultimately play into how well a team does on any given day.

The coach who understands how this works best has a big advantage- the coach who doesn’t often comes up short in games, squandering opportunity after opportunity by either screwing with what is working (messing with momentum) or not realizing WHY something isn’t working or even which players aren’t clicking in their role on offense or defense of a real game and why.

Exactly right.

[Xavier]

Wilcher heading to Nebraska

Man. Nebraska finished last in the Big 10 last year...I guess it should mean playing time at least? Kyky was rumored to be going to the worst SEC team.

I hope they each do well. Just not exactly the big schools who went after them...not even average schools. Kyky I guess still could get some run, he has not committed yet.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I guess we can put to bed the blue blood tampering to get his brother rumors, lol.

[AviatorX]

Man. Nebraska finished last in the Big 10 last year...I guess it should mean playing time at least? Kyky was rumored to be going to the worst SEC team.

I think CJ and KyKy are probably two of the most talented transfers out of Xavier ever, but I would have been surprised (or would be, in KyKy's case) if they end up as major contributors at a better program than X. Not a lot of true transfers "up" from this level.

[BandAid]

Well, Hoiberg coached in the NBA...maybe he sold the bejeezus out of that?

[noteggs]

Wilcher to Nebraska, ensuring that the last we'll hear about his college career is the eternal Wilcher vs. Carter at the 4 in 2021 debate that we will all have until the day we die.

Public reps! Spot on and funny!

[Xavier]

I think CJ and KyKy are probably two of the most talented transfers out of Xavier ever, but I would have been surprised (or would be, in KyKy's case) if they end up as major contributors at a better program than X. Not a lot of true transfers "up" from this level.

Outside of Dez- who was obviously forced out- and same with Lyons? I would agree, these are the only two that maybe hurt to lose. I just know when they announced (Especially KyKy) a lot on here thought for sure he would end up "transfering up". I actually thought Wilcher may get some interest from better schools who could plug him in as a catch and shoot guy.

[IM4X]

Outside of Dez- who was obviously forced out- and same with Lyons? I would agree, these are the only two that maybe hurt to lose. I just know when they announced (Especially KyKy) a lot on here thought for sure he would end up "transfering up". I actually thought Wilcher may get some interest from better schools who could plug him in as a catch and shoot guy.

I feel like we are working our way towards an interesting new thread here.

[GoMuskies]

Why are you guys disrespecting Churchill Odia and his transfer to Oregon?

[AviatorX]

Why are you guys disrespecting Churchill Odia and his transfer to Oregon?

Good point. And what about Jayson/Jaison/Jason (which one was it?) Williams to Oklahoma, right?

[GoMuskies]

Oh yeah, forgot him. And then there's the quite unusual case of Brien Hanley to K-State!

[Xville]

David Young to like North Carolina Central State Valley Tech or something? And then was drafted by the NBA for some reason.

[MHettel]

Is this a weird answer for a coach to give? 99% of college basketball coaches would say the same exact thing, no matter what the situation is internally.

Not really a weird answer to give. The comments regarding KyKy lend further support to the idea that practice performance is the primary criteria for earning actual game minutes.

So, what Steele saw of Carter in PRACTICE was enough for him to start and play significant minutes in spite of what Steele saw in GAMES which was that Carter was laying eggs and had no confidence.

I'm not really sure what you thought my point was. Steele has overemphasized what he sees in practice. Carter and kyKy are evidence.

[mid major]

Wilcher heading to Nebraska

I imagine Wilcher leaving Xavier for Kent St. would probably be frowned upon by his circle but leaving Xavier for a Big 10 has a better appeal even if it means they're stuck in the the Big 10 basement.

[UCGRAD4X]

One example is “The hot hand.” It never shows up in stats but always seems to perform well throughout much of a particular game. When a guy is “feeling it” and able to “get to his sweet spot” or even able to “play his game” and still be in sync with his teammates in that game- good things happen. Being hyper aware of those types of intangibles and acting upon them as a coach can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Stats can answer WHO made a basket or HOW many rebounds player X got, but it doesn’t necessarily tell you WHY that happened. There are certain intangibles like confidence and tenacity that can show up in a player at a particular stretch of time or in a particular situation that can play a huge factor in momentum and chemistry that ultimately play into how well a team does on any given day.

The coach who understands how this works best has a big advantage- the coach who doesn’t often comes up short in games, squandering opportunity after opportunity by either screwing with what is working (messing with momentum) or not realizing WHY something isn’t working or even which players aren’t clicking in their role on offense or defense of a real game and why.

But the hot hand, sweet spot, groove or whatever usually shows up in the stats - if it didn't - it wouldn't be a hot hand. Accumulating the statistics is almost the definition of those descriptors, which are otherwise highly subjective.

[Masterofreality]

There is just no way in hell that decision purely boiled down to "well Jason is ranked higher in our practice scoresheet" no matter how many times MOR writes it in all caps and bold. I mean do people actually think that? And save your time everybody.

Are you horribly obsessed with me dude?
Sorry that I’m right about Loyola (and pretty much everything else) and you aren’t.
BTW. See Hett’s post, #229 in this thread. He’s spot on again.
Please seek Professional Help. Please.

[AviatorX]

Are you horribly obsessed with me dude?
Sorry that I’m right about Loyola (and pretty much everything else) and you aren’t.
BTW. See Hett’s post, #229 in this thread. He’s spot on again.
Please seek Professional Help. Please.

No one can say you aren’t consistent! The parenthetical about being right about “pretty much everything else” is a nice touch I’ll admit.

[Dblue]

Not really a weird answer to give. The comments regarding KyKy lend further support to the idea that practice performance is the primary criteria for earning actual game minutes.

So, what Steele saw of Carter in PRACTICE was enough for him to start and play significant minutes in spite of what Steele saw in GAMES which was that Carter was laying eggs and had no confidence.

I'm not really sure what you thought my point was. Steele has overemphasized what he sees in practice. Carter and kyKy are evidence.

I read this on Banners..."Coach Steele reported that Carter was battling injuries through the middle of the year, going from the turn of the calendar through mid-February without being healthy enough to participate in practices."

So if that was really the case, healthy teammates couldn't practice better than the guy sitting out in practice?

[UCGRAD4X]

I read this on Banners..."Coach Steele reported that Carter was battling injuries through the middle of the year, going from the turn of the calendar through mid-February without being healthy enough to participate in practices."

So if that was really the case, healthy teammates couldn't practice better than the guy sitting out in practice?

All the more reason to scratch one's head about the playing time he received. Implying that he could have played so much better if healthy does not diminish the fact that he didn't.

[IM4X]

But the hot hand, sweet spot, groove or whatever usually shows up in the stats - if it didn't - it wouldn't be a hot hand. Accumulating the statistics is almost the definition of those descriptors, which are otherwise highly subjective.

Think about the guy who has been in a shooting slump all year. Statistically, he would not look so good on paper to a coach. Now that same player gets in the game and makes his first bucket. He then gets back on defense and blocks the next shot attempt which leads to a run out where he gets the pass and hits a jumper. Those few plays are not going to change his stats all that much, but he is the “hot hand” and you would be a fool to take him out of the game. That guy has it going and he believes no one’s going to stop him - and you don’t want to mess with someone who has such confidence- who has just made big plays - and who has given the team positive momentum.

My point is that someone with poor stats can still be a hot hand on any given day - it all depends on things like that player’s confidence level or maybe his ability to take shots form where he shoots best or maybe even being matched up with someone who is having trouble guarding him.

[xuphan]

I read this on Banners..."Coach Steele reported that Carter was battling injuries through the middle of the year, going from the turn of the calendar through mid-February without being healthy enough to participate in practices."

So if that was really the case, healthy teammates couldn't practice better than the guy sitting out in practice?

So he played an injured player who didn’t practice or perform on the court? What a stupid thing to do as a coach. Makes sense why multiple players transferred. You got one more year Steele to figure out this coaching thing.

[UCGRAD4X]

Think about the guy who has been in a shooting slump all year. Statistically, he would not look so good on paper to a coach. Now that same player gets in the game and makes his first bucket. He then gets back on defense and blocks the next shot attempt which leads to a run out where he gets the pass and hits a jumper. Those few plays are not going to change his stats all that much, but he is the “hot hand” and you would be a fool to take him out of the game. That guy has it going and he believes no one’s going to stop him - and you don’t want to mess with someone who has such confidence- who has just made big plays - and who has given the team positive momentum.

My point is that someone with poor stats can still be a hot hand on any given day - it all depends on things like that player’s confidence level or maybe his ability to take shots form where he shoots best or maybe even being matched up with someone who is having trouble guarding him.

It's going to change his stats considerably if he scores 4/5 points and blocks a shot in 2 min of play when his average is fewer that 4/5 points and he hasn't blocked a shot all season.

Besides, how does one differentiate between a couple of good plays and a hot hand? It is very subjective. I guess that is why I'm not a head coach. (Insert Travis comments here)

[Masterofreality]

No one can say you aren’t consistent! The parenthetical about being right about “pretty much everything else” is a nice touch I’ll admit.

And you can be consistent by keeping my name out your mouth.
Get help.

[XU 87]

Loyola’s zone offense sucks. Porter needs a new bench coach to help him run a zone offense.

[Masterofreality]

Loyola’s zone offense sucks. Porter needs a new bench coach to help him run a zone offense.

They lost 5 games all year long. Sweet 16. I think their “zone offense” was pretty good all season and the first 2 games of the Tournament.
Just a lid on the basket. Hate that it happens in the Tournament.
All I heard about all year from some on here is that XU had “great looks” all year, but they “just didn’t go down”. Soo, Xavier had a lid on the basket 6 out of our last 8 games this year. Loyola had it one game.
Welp.

[XU 87]

They lost 5 games all year long. Sweet 16. I think their “zone offense” was pretty good all season and the first 2 games of the Tournament.
Just a lid on the basket. Hate that it happens in the Tournament.
All I heard about all year from some on here is that XU had “great looks” all year, but they “just didn’t go down”. Soo, Xavier had a lid on the basket 6 out of our last 8 games this year. Loyola had it one game.
Welp.

I was being sarcastic. I was just trying to fit in with some of the “high level analysis” that I now frequently read from you and some others.

[Xavier]

Hard to believe that was the same team we saw last week. I actually think Xavier would’ve beat them today, and that’s saying something. Still a hell of a run but they won’t like ending it on that performance

*just so MOR doesn’t get mad, yes I’d be happy if he found his way to the X sideline.

[Masterofreality]

I was being sarcastic. I was just trying to fit in with some of the “high level analysis” that I now frequently read from you and some others.

Ha! Let’s talk about climate, Brother! :-))

[XU 87]

Ha! Let’s talk about climate, Brother! :-))

You do know your weather!

[AviatorX]

And you can be consistent by keeping my name out your mouth.
Get help.

I promise I will if you stop posting dumb shit.

[Xuperman]

They lost 5 games all year long. Sweet 16. I think their “zone offense” was pretty good all season and the first 2 games of the Tournament.
Just a lid on the basket. Hate that it happens in the Tournament.
All I heard about all year from some on here is that XU had “great looks” all year, but they “just didn’t go down”. Soo, Xavier had a lid on the basket 6 out of our last 8 games this year. Loyola had it one game.
Welp.

Can we consider you a Xavier BB fan? Or is it just contingent on the Steele Deal?

[Masterofreality]

Can we consider you a Xavier BB fan? Or is it just contingent on the Steele Deal?

If you consider that I am a 1972 graduate and Scholarship Athlete and Team Captain at Xavier.
If you consider that I sat through over 15 years of horrible Xavier Basketball before Bob Staak was hired.
If you consider that I’m a 3 seat lower bowl Season Ticket Holder
If you consider that I’m an Officer in the Lew Hirt Society.
If You consider that I’m an 1831 Society Level Donor
If you consider that I had a daughter graduate from Xavier
If you consider that I coached up to High School level Basketball for 25 years
If you consider that I know pretty much anyone who runs the AFO
If you consider that I attended A10 Tournaments and Big East Tournaments up until this year.
If you consider that I visited every gym in the MCC, A10 and 9 of 11 in the Big East so far
If you consider that I’ve been to over 20 Xavier NCAA games where ever for Xavier

Then, yeah. I suppose I might be a fan of the program. Steele has one more year to prove that he can do this.
There are no more excuses. Other schools have worked through iish. He hasn’t proven he can do it yet.
#ButlerSecondHalf #MeaningfulGameFails #RosterMismanagement

[Masterofreality]

I promise I will if you stop posting dumb shit.


*Dumb shit* that is actually accurate, correct and not just based on stupid statistics but educated observation, reality, results, but doesn’t agree with your numbers on paper based takes?

Nah. I’ll keep posting that stuff and you can keep looking like the fool that you project.

#StatisticsAreForLosers

[Masterofreality]

Hard to believe that was the same team we saw last week. I actually think Xavier would’ve beat them today, and that’s saying something. Still a hell of a run but they won’t like ending it on that performance

*just so MOR doesn’t get mad, yes I’d be happy if he found his way to the X sideline.


Ha! Not mad. They had a good run, but one day of bad shooting does you in in that thing.
He’s not coming here, and I hope he doesn’t go anywhere else. Seems as if DePaul is focused on Kenny Payne now. Loyola Fat Cats are stepping up, and I *think* Indiana thinks Moser is a step below them, although he’s not.

Going anywhere else in the country would be a huge surprise to me.