Clifton Community College can’t attract a new AD

[Masterofreality]

The Latest-
Turned down by Appalachian State’s AD Doug Gillin who is staying there.
What a massive mess that place is, and it has to impact whether Fickel stays

[XU 87]

Did he actually turn down UC, or did he "withdraw" after learning that he's not the top choice?

[xudash]

Did he actually turn down UC, or did he "withdraw" after learning that he's not the top choice?

Fair point, if that is the case.

But the overall reality remains a little brutal for Clifton: it's a stepping stone job for two reasons:

1. The AAC; and

2. The building financial stress that UC is under. Now you have students filing reports on blogs about UC shifting its emphasis to "profits" over education (i.e. money moved to athletics and money for capital projects that don't directly enhance the classroom experience). Cut teaching salaries, etc.

I suppose if you're a strong sports executive on your way up, and you're next step is from a smaller school to an AAC-like institution, as you otherwise navigate your way to a good P5 job - again, if you're worthy - then you would look at the UC job. But you're stay in Cincinnati easily won't last a decade.

[bleedXblue]

Their Athletic Department is bleeding money. Every student pays something like 4K a year in additional tuition to help support athletics. Honestly that's a damn crime IMHO. If you can't break even, why the hell are you giving ANY scholarship money to the programs that aren't generating enough to cover costs? Makes not a damn bit of sense to me. College athletics is becoming the HAVE's and the HAVE NOT's.

[XU 87]

Their Athletic Department is bleeding money. Every student pays something like 4K a year in additional tuition to help support athletics.

When I read your post, my first thought was, "No way each student is paying close to $4000 over 4 years to support athletics." And I was correct (sort of). It's actually $4900. Nothing like taking out student loans to support the track team.

https://www.newsrecord.org/news/soaring-subsidies-uc-s-four-year-athletic-deficit-up-to/article_46de67b6-37a5-11e8-97ee-f740bda06336.html

[bleedXblue]

When I read your post, my first thought was, "No way each student is paying close to $4000 over 4 years to support athletics." And I was correct (sort of). It's actually $4900. Nothing like taking out student loans to support the track team.

https://www.newsrecord.org/news/soaring-subsidies-uc-s-four-year-athletic-deficit-up-to/article_46de67b6-37a5-11e8-97ee-f740bda06336.html

In todays day and age when student debt is a massive issue, I find this incredibly irresponsible. You're "supposed" to be an institution of higher learning. Now, on the flip side UC is very affordable when compared to other university's. I think annual tuition is somewhere around 12K.

[xudash]

In todays day and age when student debt is a massive issue, I find this incredibly irresponsible. You're "supposed" to be an institution of higher learning. Now, on the flip side UC is very affordable when compared to other university's. I think annual tuition is somewhere around 12K.

Well, what is the ole adage: "you get what you pay for". Only in this case, it's a tad worse.

[XUGRAD80]

I totally realize that this is a Xavier board and that many of the posters here, being completely diehard Xavier only fans, are not going to say anything nice about any other school, especially one in the same area. However, while I am a very proud Xavier grad, who wore a Xavier uniform, I am also someone that grew up in Cincinnati and have lived in the tristate area almost all of my 63 years. I grew up following UC while in grade school and high school more than I did Xavier. After graduation from X I took classes at UC and actually lived within a block of the main entrance. My best friends are almost all UC grads and fans. I’ve been a season ticket holder for UC FOOTBALL for many years. My kids grew up going to UC football games in the fall and still do. IF Xavier had a football team while I was there, and afterwards, I would have become a Xavier football fan and would be attending Xavier games instead of UC games, but they didn’t and they don’t.

I’m not sure that those who didn’t grow up in Cincinnati, or don’t live here, can really understand that it is literally the only game in town. Don’t give me OSU or one of the other out of town schools either. Cincinnati is NOT OSU territory. Most people that grew up here don’t even think of themselves as Ohioans. We are Cincinnatiains. If someone LIVING here wants to actually ATTEND college football games, they have only a few choices....attend a Mt. ST Joe or Thomas Moore D-3/NAIA game, travel to Lexington, Columbus, Bloomington, or elsewhere and pay 2-3-4 times what it costs to attend a UC game, or drive down to Nippert, where every seat is a good seat, and watch UC. Is it the top tier college football in the country? No. But it’s not really far off, and as others have said, there are only really 10-15 real national championship level programs in the country. The COST differential is HUGE.

Examples
...tailgate spot for the entire SEASON at UC...$350.00. Tailgate spot for ONE GAME at OSU......$500.00.
...my SEASON tickets at UC are 200.00 for a seat to 6 games in the end zone. I could spend that for ONE GAME at the other places.

UC won 11 games last year and will probably match that total this year. They went to a bowl game last year and are going this year too. They aren’t top tear games but so what? They are still fun. I have gone to the Orange Bowl and the Sugar Bowl to watch UC. I expect that trips to those bowls will only happen occasionally for UC, but maybe because of that they are appreciated more when they do happen.

All in all, UC FOOTBALL is fun, I have a long history, reaching back to my childhood, as a fan, and it’s family affordable. I don’t have to love the school or their basketball team to be a football fan. But I don’t see any reason to hate them either. It’s actually much easier for me to hate OSU and their obnoxious and overbearing fans....Ohhowihateohiostate.

[American X]

Some people rooted for the Soviets to win the Cold War too.

[Xville]

I totally realize that this is a Xavier board and that many of the posters here, being completely diehard Xavier only fans, are not going to say anything nice about any other school, especially one in the same area. However, while I am a very proud Xavier grad, who wore a Xavier uniform, I am also someone that grew up in Cincinnati and have lived in the tristate area almost all of my 63 years. I grew up following UC while in grade school and high school more than I did Xavier. After graduation from X I took classes at UC and actually lived within a block of the main entrance. My best friends are almost all UC grads and fans. I’ve been a season ticket holder for UC FOOTBALL for many years. My kids grew up going to UC football games in the fall and still do. IF Xavier had a football team while I was there, and afterwards, I would have become a Xavier football fan and would be attending Xavier games instead of UC games, but they didn’t and they don’t.

I’m not sure that those who didn’t grow up in Cincinnati, or don’t live here, can really understand that it is literally the only game in town. Don’t give me OSU or one of the other out of town schools either. Cincinnati is NOT OSU territory. Most people that grew up here don’t even think of themselves as Ohioans. We are Cincinnatiains. If someone LIVING here wants to actually ATTEND college football games, they have only a few choices....attend a Mt. ST Joe or Thomas Moore D-3/NAIA game, travel to Lexington, Columbus, Bloomington, or elsewhere and pay 2-3-4 times what it costs to attend a UC game, or drive down to Nippert, where every seat is a good seat, and watch UC. Is it the top tier college football in the country? No. But it’s not really far off, and as others have said, there are only really 10-15 real national championship level programs in the country. The COST differential is HUGE.

Examples
...tailgate spot for the entire SEASON at UC...$350.00. Tailgate spot for ONE GAME at OSU......$500.00.
...my SEASON tickets at UC are 200.00 for a seat to 6 games in the end zone. I could spend that for ONE GAME at the other places.

UC won 11 games last year and will probably match that total this year. They went to a bowl game last year and are going this year too. They aren’t top tear games but so what? They are still fun. I have gone to the Orange Bowl and the Sugar Bowl to watch UC. I expect that trips to those bowls will only happen occasionally for UC, but maybe because of that they are appreciated more when they do happen.

All in all, UC FOOTBALL is fun, I have a long history, reaching back to my childhood, as a fan, and it’s family affordable. I don’t have to love the school or their basketball team to be a football fan. But I don’t see any reason to hate them either. It’s actually much easier for me to hate OSU and their obnoxious and overbearing fans....Ohhowihateohiostate.

Curious question....if you grew up a uc fan in a multitude of ways, why did you go to xavier? That seems so odd to me...I have buddies who are louisville fans and went to kentucky and missorui fans who went to kansas. I find that really freaking nuts to be a fan and go to the school's rival when there are a ton of choices. I could understand if it was kentucky or kansas were tremendous schools and offered something others didnt but that's just frankly not the case.

[bleedXblue]

I totally realize that this is a Xavier board and that many of the posters here, being completely diehard Xavier only fans, are not going to say anything nice about any other school, especially one in the same area. However, while I am a very proud Xavier grad, who wore a Xavier uniform, I am also someone that grew up in Cincinnati and have lived in the tristate area almost all of my 63 years. I grew up following UC while in grade school and high school more than I did Xavier. After graduation from X I took classes at UC and actually lived within a block of the main entrance. My best friends are almost all UC grads and fans. I’ve been a season ticket holder for UC FOOTBALL for many years. My kids grew up going to UC football games in the fall and still do. IF Xavier had a football team while I was there, and afterwards, I would have become a Xavier football fan and would be attending Xavier games instead of UC games, but they didn’t and they don’t.

I’m not sure that those who didn’t grow up in Cincinnati, or don’t live here, can really understand that it is literally the only game in town. Don’t give me OSU or one of the other out of town schools either. Cincinnati is NOT OSU territory. Most people that grew up here don’t even think of themselves as Ohioans. We are Cincinnatiains. If someone LIVING here wants to actually ATTEND college football games, they have only a few choices....attend a Mt. ST Joe or Thomas Moore D-3/NAIA game, travel to Lexington, Columbus, Bloomington, or elsewhere and pay 2-3-4 times what it costs to attend a UC game, or drive down to Nippert, where every seat is a good seat, and watch UC. Is it the top tier college football in the country? No. But it’s not really far off, and as others have said, there are only really 10-15 real national championship level programs in the country. The COST differential is HUGE.

Examples
...tailgate spot for the entire SEASON at UC...$350.00. Tailgate spot for ONE GAME at OSU......$500.00.
...my SEASON tickets at UC are 200.00 for a seat to 6 games in the end zone. I could spend that for ONE GAME at the other places.

UC won 11 games last year and will probably match that total this year. They went to a bowl game last year and are going this year too. They aren’t top tear games but so what? They are still fun. I have gone to the Orange Bowl and the Sugar Bowl to watch UC. I expect that trips to those bowls will only happen occasionally for UC, but maybe because of that they are appreciated more when they do happen.

All in all, UC FOOTBALL is fun, I have a long history, reaching back to my childhood, as a fan, and it’s family affordable. I don’t have to love the school or their basketball team to be a football fan. But I don’t see any reason to hate them either. It’s actually much easier for me to hate OSU and their obnoxious and overbearing fans....Ohhowihateohiostate.

No issue with you being a UC football fan. How do you feel about the students paying additional tuition to fund the athletic department? Curious what your take is

[xubrew]

No issue with you being a UC football fan. How do you feel about the students paying additional tuition to fund the athletic department? Curious what your take is

Not trying to hijack your thread, but I have a similar question/curiosity.

"TUITION AND FEES" at UC has not really gone up at all over the past 10-15 years. They've been really good about keeping that the same. I'm fairly certain (but not entirely certain) that athletics fees fall under the category of "fees." So, if that's the case, and the students are paying the same amount of money even though more from that same amount is going to athletics, then what part of campus is suddenly NOT getting the money?

This is an honest actual question. I'm not trying to defend, or attack, UC. I don't know the answer and I'd like to.

[Xville]

I'm going to assume that a lot of other colleges do the same thing that uc is doing with some creative accounting measures. UC, kind of to their credit, are at least being honest about it.

[xubrew]

I'm going to assume that a lot of other colleges do the same thing that uc is doing with some creative accounting measures. UC, kind of to their credit, are at least being honest about it.

This is true. At a lot of schools it's "general student fees" or "student activity fees" or "additional necessary fees" or some vaguely masked category that money is allotted to and then given to athletics, or wherever. Accounting practices at universities allows for more creativity than most other places do.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

As many have said, the Athletic Department (in particular) is in terrible shape financially. It is mostly that way for two reasons:

1. Mike Bohn has zero fiscal responsibility, he threw money at everything with no care or concern for where it would come from, or what the budget was. He was constantly auditioning for his next gig, so he walked and talked (and operated) in the biggest way possible. There is a reason no one cried when he left San Diego State nor Colorado, there isn't a whole lot under the surface.

2. They are spending like a Big 12 program (dress for the job you want, so to speak), but they bring in Athletic Department Donations / Revenue in-line with a MAC program. It doesn't take very long for that to get upside down in a big way.

Quickest way to ensure that you lose Luke Fickell is to not be able to take care of, nor keep, his top assistants. Watch Coach Fickell during the game, he is a CEO, he isn't in the weeds / calling plays on either side of the ball, without really good Coordinators (and he has them), it would be interesting.

I'm sure the gentleman from Appy State reviewed the books, the budget, the revenue forecasts, and realized it was going to need a bigger bucket than he cared to bring with him.

There are a couple of quality candidates interested in the job (in spite of all of the above), one they have spoken to, one they haven't (yet), but they should separate themselves from the superfluous search firm with its own agenda, and use their talented board to hire the best person for the job.

[XUGRAD80]

I’d not say that “most do”, I’d say that there is probably only a handful that “don’t” support their athletic programs with student money. I suspect that if one was to look closely at the Xavier University books (which are private) we would see that the tuition Xavier students paid is partly going to support student athletic programs. In fact, a quick Google search shows many newspaper articles dealing with the Millions of dollars that the standard student population pays to support athletic programs in virtually every university, without even knowing they are doing so.

But doesn’t the same thing happen in virtually every high school, every elementary school, even every community? If we went strictly to a pay to play model, only those that could afford to pay would be able to play. We get so caught up in the Men’s Basketball program that we often forget that it’s only a small % of the total number of athletes that participate and represent the university. Those other programs may not bring in the dollars that the men’s BB program does, but those other student athletes work just as hard, sacrifice as much or even more, and get just as much or even more out of the experience. Programs such as drama, theatre, music, etc. also get some financial support. If they don’t get as much as the athletic department that’s more a reflection of how society values athletics than it is anything else. The Arts struggle for support on campus and in the community.

The point isn’t if we support using using student fees to pay for college athletics. It’s such a part of the system now that there is really no way that it changes without changing the whole scope of college athletics.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Curious question....if you grew up a uc fan in a multitude of ways, why did you go to xavier? That seems so odd to me...I have buddies who are louisville fans and went to kentucky and missorui fans who went to kansas. I find that really freaking nuts to be a fan and go to the school's rival when there are a ton of choices. I could understand if it was kentucky or kansas were tremendous schools and offered something others didnt but that's just frankly not the case.

Any parents who allow their kids to pick the college they go to based off of who they are a fan of or rival of is stupid.

[xudash]

As many have said, the Athletic Department (in particular) is in terrible shape financially. It is mostly that way for two reasons:

1. Mike Bohn has zero fiscal responsibility, he threw money at everything with no care or concern for where it would come from, or what the budget was. He was constantly auditioning for his next gig, so he walked and talked (and operated) in the biggest way possible. There is a reason no one cried when he left San Diego State nor Colorado, there isn't a whole lot under the surface.

2. They are spending like a Big 12 program (dress for the job you want, so to speak), but they bring in Athletic Department Donations / Revenue in-line with a MAC program. It doesn't take very long for that to get upside down in a big way.

Quickest way to ensure that you lose Luke Fickell is to not be able to take care of, nor keep, his top assistants. Watch Coach Fickell during the game, he is a CEO, he isn't in the weeds / calling plays on either side of the ball, without really good Coordinators (and he has them), it would be interesting.

I'm sure the gentleman from Appy State reviewed the books, the budget, the revenue forecasts, and realized it was going to need a bigger bucket than he cared to bring with him.

There are a couple of quality candidates interested in the job (in spite of all of the above), one they have spoken to, one they haven't (yet), but they should separate themselves from the superfluous search firm with its own agenda, and use their talented board to hire the best person for the job.

Great post.

I really focus on their effort to get to the Big 12 the last time around. That effort was studied by the Big 12 ad nauseum. And with all those studies finally put into binders for review, the decision came up thumbs down for any of the prospective additions, including UC. They COULD NOT GET THE TV NUMBERS TO WORK. There is nothing that suggests that this issue will come out favorably the next time for UC, if there is a next time. In fact, with changes in broadcast tech, etc., it's more likely that it will become even harder for UC to find a P5 home.

Revenue in-line with a MAC program. It doesn't get much worse than that.

And yes, the headhunter is looking for a fat fee.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

And yes, the headhunter is looking for a fat fee.

Two fat fees, the one for placing a UC AD, and then the one for replacing the AD they bring to UC. The University's Board, run by the brilliant Ron Brown, should not need a Search Firm and their self-interests to find the right leader for their Athletic programs.

[xudash]

I totally realize that this is a Xavier board and that many of the posters here, being completely diehard Xavier only fans, are not going to say anything nice about any other school, especially one in the same area. However, while I am a very proud Xavier grad, who wore a Xavier uniform, I am also someone that grew up in Cincinnati and have lived in the tristate area almost all of my 63 years. I grew up following UC while in grade school and high school more than I did Xavier. After graduation from X I took classes at UC and actually lived within a block of the main entrance. My best friends are almost all UC grads and fans. I’ve been a season ticket holder for UC FOOTBALL for many years. My kids grew up going to UC football games in the fall and still do. IF Xavier had a football team while I was there, and afterwards, I would have become a Xavier football fan and would be attending Xavier games instead of UC games, but they didn’t and they don’t.

I’m not sure that those who didn’t grow up in Cincinnati, or don’t live here, can really understand that it is literally the only game in town. Don’t give me OSU or one of the other out of town schools either. Cincinnati is NOT OSU territory. Most people that grew up here don’t even think of themselves as Ohioans. We are Cincinnatiains. If someone LIVING here wants to actually ATTEND college football games, they have only a few choices....attend a Mt. ST Joe or Thomas Moore D-3/NAIA game, travel to Lexington, Columbus, Bloomington, or elsewhere and pay 2-3-4 times what it costs to attend a UC game, or drive down to Nippert, where every seat is a good seat, and watch UC. Is it the top tier college football in the country? No. But it’s not really far off, and as others have said, there are only really 10-15 real national championship level programs in the country. The COST differential is HUGE.

Examples
...tailgate spot for the entire SEASON at UC...$350.00. Tailgate spot for ONE GAME at OSU......$500.00.
...my SEASON tickets at UC are 200.00 for a seat to 6 games in the end zone. I could spend that for ONE GAME at the other places.

UC won 11 games last year and will probably match that total this year. They went to a bowl game last year and are going this year too. They aren’t top tear games but so what? They are still fun. I have gone to the Orange Bowl and the Sugar Bowl to watch UC. I expect that trips to those bowls will only happen occasionally for UC, but maybe because of that they are appreciated more when they do happen.

All in all, UC FOOTBALL is fun, I have a long history, reaching back to my childhood, as a fan, and it’s family affordable. I don’t have to love the school or their basketball team to be a football fan. But I don’t see any reason to hate them either. It’s actually much easier for me to hate OSU and their obnoxious and overbearing fans....Ohhowihateohiostate.

I believe you're spot on with that assessment. I'm not from Cincinnati. But I love Cincinnati. I identify with it more so than anywhere else I've ever lived. Get close to the I-275 outerbelt on the way towards Fountain Square and you move from Ohio, Kentucky or Indiana into the People's Republic of Cincinnati.

As for the UC football thing, sorry. It's always about imprinting, right? I grew up on Ohio State football. I spent 10 minutes in a conversation with Woody Hayes while I was in high school. Script Ohio. The "Shoe". I know some or many here hate Ohio State. That's your right. But with that as my background and then going to Cincinnati to attend Xavier, in no way, shape or form was I converting in some way to root for UC Bearcat Football.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I hope the UC women's field hockey team goes 0-100.

[sirthought]

Curious question....if you grew up a uc fan in a multitude of ways, why did you go to xavier? That seems so odd to me...I have buddies who are louisville fans and went to kentucky and missorui fans who went to kansas. I find that really freaking nuts to be a fan and go to the school's rival when there are a ton of choices. I could understand if it was kentucky or kansas were tremendous schools and offered something others didnt but that's just frankly not the case.

How old are you, 12? Sports is just entertainment.

[drudy23]

The worst thing that ever happened to UC was football being in the national mix in the Kelly years. It created a false sense of hope that they have been trying to ride since he left. They simply don't have the revenue and resources to support big time basketball and football. The same would be true for Xavier if they had football.

Either they choose to make one top tier, or they will continue to spin their wheels on the outside looking in for football, and a relatively decent mid-tier basketball program.

[sirthought]

The worst thing that ever happened to UC was football being in the national mix in the Kelly years. It created a false sense of hope that they have been trying to ride since he left. They simply don't have the revenue and resources to support big time basketball and football. The same would be true for Xavier if they had football.

Either they choose to make one top tier, or they will continue to spin their wheels on the outside looking in for football, and a relatively decent mid-tier basketball program.

Couldn't the same be said for ALL college football programs? It's the most expensive sport and they are trying to produce a top notch product in an environment that is focusing on amateur athletes. The insurance costs are sky high. The facility costs are staggering. I don't see colleges being able to keep it up in decades to come.

It's rare that a place like Xavier has such a loyal fanbase that they become profitable and can support a building like Cintas. They really developed their program and brand when it was the perfect storm, as building costs weren't so inflated as today, and you had companies like Learfield Sports looking to expand their business and willing to pay for so many upgrades to make Cintas better.

[Xville]

How old are you, 12? Sports is just entertainment.

Thanks Dad but I didnt ask you. Growing up to be a fan of a school and going to the rival is odd to me, and I was curious as to why from the person who did it.

[xudash]

The worst thing that ever happened to UC was football being in the national mix in the Kelly years. It created a false sense of hope that they have been trying to ride since he left. They simply don't have the revenue and resources to support big time basketball and football. The same would be true for Xavier if they had football.

Either they choose to make one top tier, or they will continue to spin their wheels on the outside looking in for football, and a relatively decent mid-tier basketball program.

Great point about the timing.

A question would be: Can UC afford to only focus on basketball? Basketball as the lead sport has been and remains the battle cry of smaller, private and probably mostly Catholic schools.

Similar to UCONN, UC has dumped a little too much money into Nippert to turn it into a soccer and lacrosse stadium. The other thing is UC's size. You would perhaps "expect" a school of that size to provide the football experience for its student body.

It makes me believe that UC should be looking at the MAC MODEL, if you want to call it that. Keep football, but turn down the volume knob on it. You'll never get to where you wanted to be, but you weren't going to get there anyway. Going in the MAC direction is an admission of defeat, but do you want football at some level that keeps you in the FBS division or do you want zero? They're in a tough spot in Clifton right now.

[XUGRAD80]

Curious question....if you grew up a uc fan in a multitude of ways, why did you go to xavier? That seems so odd to me...I have buddies who are louisville fans and went to kentucky and missorui fans who went to kansas. I find that really freaking nuts to be a fan and go to the school's rival when there are a ton of choices. I could understand if it was kentucky or kansas were tremendous schools and offered something others didnt but that's just frankly not the case.

Several reasons, and Xavier was not the 1st school I attended either. I was a bellow average high school athlete in search of a sport and was talked into joining the wrestling team as a junior. I was only about 130 lbs and was really to small for football and basketball. I played soccer and was pretty good at it, but it was just something I did, not really a passion. Wrestling became a passion. I wasn’t great at it at that point because even though I had the strength, quickness, and desire to be great at it, I didn’t have the experience. The school I first went to wanted to start a wrestling team, and my older sister was a student there. I went there expecting to be on their wrestling team but they never did start the team. Meanwhile, Xavier had started a wrestling team a couple of years earlier and they needed team members. UC, at that time, was considered one of the top wrestling schools in the Midwest and I was told by my HS coach that I wouldn’t be able to compete at that level. So, following his advice, I transferred into X and walked on to the wrestling team. I had spent my first year at college practicing with a local HS, and spent the summers training with a local wrestling club and competing in Open Tournaments. I went to X hoping to be a .500 wrestler, as I was in HS. and expecting nothing more. I ended up doing much better than I ever hoped or dreamed of doing, but most importantly I got the chance to experience intercollegiate athletics personally. It was a great experience that I look backwards at with great joy.

It because of my experience doing that, with really no shot at a National Championship, that I don’t see where success is only based on competing for those championships. The thrill and honor of competing at a NC contender level is something 99% of college athletes never get to experience. But that doesn’t mean there is no value in their experiences. There is tremendous value in just being able to compete on the intercollegiate level. I wish it was something that everyone could have the experience of doing, even if it was just for one day.

[Xville]

Several reasons, and Xavier was not the 1st school I attended either. I was a bellow average high school athlete in search of a sport and was talked into joining the wrestling team as a junior. I was only about 130 lbs and was really to small for football and basketball. I played soccer and was pretty good at it, but it was just something I did, not really a passion. Wrestling became a passion. I wasn’t great at it at that point because even though I had the strength, quickness, and desire to be great at it, I didn’t have the experience. The school I first went to wanted to start a wrestling team, and my older sister was a student there. I went there expecting to be on their wrestling team but they never did start the team. Meanwhile, Xavier had started a wrestling team a couple of years earlier and they needed team members. UC, at that time, was considered one of the top wrestling schools in the Midwest and I was told by my HS coach that I wouldn’t be able to compete at that level. So, following his advice, I transferred into X and walked on to the wrestling team. I had spent my first year at college practicing with a local HS, and spent the summers training with a local wrestling club and competing in Open Tournaments. I went to X hoping to be a .500 wrestler, as I was in HS. and expecting nothing more. I ended up doing much better than I ever hoped or dreamed of doing (this is where I’m going to brag a little, with the complete understanding that it was 40 years ago and means nothing, but please indulge me with a ��..lol). I was elected team captain after my 1st year, went to the NCAA tourney every year, set the school record for career wins by the end of my junior year, went to the Olympic trails twice, and beat my UC opponents every year. And then at the beginning of my senior year Xavier dropped wrestling. So I transferred to UC and wrestled the 2nd semester for the Bearcats and won a few matches for them too. I took a job teaching and coaching at a local HS and kept competing in Open Tournaments for several years. Probably had somewhere around 6-700 matches between HS, College, and Open competition all told before I quit, and won 70% of them overall. Was not a true national caliber talent but I really enjoyed my experiences and I feel got a lot out of it.

It because of my experience doing that, with really no shot at a National Championship, that I don’t see where success is only based on competing for those championships. The thrill and honor of competing at a NC contender level is something 99% of college athletes never get to experience. But that doesn’t mean there is no value in their experiences. There is tremendous value in just being able to compete on the intercollegiate level. I wish it was something that everyone could have the experience of doing, even if it was just for one day.

Thanks for this and I appreciate reading about your experiences. Always curious to hear how people end up making choices and how they got to where they are. Most of my time during the week is meeting with small and midsize business owners and am always fascinated to hear the who what where how and why. Thank you for this.

[muskiefan82]

Thanks Dad but I didnt ask you. Growing up to be a fan of a school and going to the rival is odd to me, and I was curious as to why from the person who did it.

I can completely understand it. I grew up a huge Xavier fan. My undergrad is from UC and my MBA is from Thomas More. Why? UC was affordable under the GI Bill, Thomas More was affordable with my employers tuition reimbursement plan and X cost more than I was being given. So, I have my Bachelor's from UC and my Master's from Thomas More hanging on my wall surrounded by Xavier stuff and a wallet that lets me buy season tickets to X.

[XUGRAD80]

Sports is just entertainment.

As a fan, I agree with you. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I don’t let a team I’m rooting for ruin my mood when they lose. Used to, but I grew out of that.

However, for the actual competitors, it’s much more than entertainment. In fact for most of them it’s anything BUT entertainment. I can truthfully say that I was barely aware of people being in the stands, and I’ll bet that is true for most. You’re so busy concentrating on the task at hand that there is very little left over to spend on everything else that is going on around you.

[sirthought]

As a fan, I agree with you. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I don’t let a team I’m rooting for ruin my mood when they lose. Used to, but I grew out of that.

However, for the actual competitors, it’s much more than entertainment. In fact for most of them it’s anything BUT entertainment. I can truthfully say that I was barely aware of people being in the stands, and I’ll bet that is true for most. You’re so busy concentrating on the task at hand that there is very little left over to spend on everything else that is going on around you.

Yes I can see the dedication from that perspective, but picking a learning institution just because you grew up liking to root for their sports team is shortsighted. Not that you can't find fulfillment that way, but if another school has a program/price/scholarship or whatever that works for you, why would you decline just because they weren't the school you rooted for? It's like saying because you grew up a life-long Reds fan you'd never be able to live in Pittsburgh. If that's what is keeping you from living in Pittsburgh, then you have issues.

[XUGRAD80]

Thanks for this and I appreciate reading about your experiences. Always curious to hear how people end up making choices and how they got to where they are. Most of my time during the week is meeting with small and midsize business owners and am always fascinated to hear the who what where how and why. Thank you for this.

At that point in my life I was not really aware of the rivalry between UC and X. My family is not from here and we didn’t move here until I was in elementary school. My parents weren’t fans of any school in the area and had no ties to any of them, so I didn’t grow up as a fan of either X or UC. One was just a big school and one was just a small school. I don’t remember any real publicity around the cross town shootout and X had already dropped football by the time I graduated HS. Cincinnati has always been much more about High School rivals than college rivals.

[XUGRAD80]

It's like saying because you grew up a life-long Reds fan you'd never be able to live in Pittsburgh. If that's what is keeping you from living in Pittsburgh, then you have issues.

Guess I have issues than...lol.

But I can think of other reasons too.

[MADXSTER]

A few years ago I read that OSU is the only school in the state of Ohio that is 100% self funded. This may only be for public schools but I doubt it.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

A few years ago I read that OSU is the only school in the state of Ohio that is 100% self funded. This may only be for public schools but I doubt it.

Correct. On the opposite end, Wright State has the most subsidized athletic department at 82%. That means, as I'm sure everyone understands, their Athletic Revenue brings in 18% of their total athletics' expense budget.

I'm also sure everyone knows this, but for nearly every school in the country, the largest athletic expense on a school's budget is their scholarships. At private schools, that is an even bigger chunk than at state schools, since the cost of attendance is higher.

[bjf123]

Thanks Dad but I didnt ask you. Growing up to be a fan of a school and going to the rival is odd to me, and I was curious as to why from the person who did it.

Well the eldest son of the couple who were Best Man and Maid of Honor at my wedding (we all met at X) grew up an X fan and ended up going to UD. He was going into chemical engineering and Dayton offered the most in the way of scholarships. Made the choice easy for him. Painful for Mom and Dad. Kids 2 & 3 went to Mt. St. Joe and Ohio State. Finally, kid 4 chose X.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[XUGRAD80]

My daughter ended up at NKU because of the huge difference in cost of attendance between NKU, UC, and Xavier. It would have been nice to be at a point where cost didn’t matter, but that’s not the case for 99% of us.

Joe Burrow wanted to attend Nebraska, where his dad had been a football star, but they never offered him a scholarship. Even when he decided to transfer from OSU, they still weren’t interested. It basically came down to a choice between LSU and UC. The rest is history.

[Xville]

I can certainly understand cost for sure especially when it comes to xavier. However, as I said previously there are numerous choices even in state that onw could avoid going to the direct rival. As I said though to each their own...me, I could never do it, ca me petty or immature, whatever. But having grown up a Mizzou fan, there was no way in hell I was going to go to kansas.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Correct. On the opposite end, Wright State has the most subsidized athletic department at 82%. That means, as I'm sure everyone understands, their Athletic Revenue brings in 18% of their total athletics' expense budget.

I'm also sure everyone knows this, but for nearly every school in the country, the largest athletic expense on a school's budget is their scholarships. At private schools, that is an even bigger chunk than at state schools, since the cost of attendance is higher.

Yeah but the cost of scholarships is a little misleading. It isnt really an expense. And it isnt like they arent letting in more "regular" paying students because they have 15 basketball players on scholarship.

[Lamont Sanford]

Some people rooted for the Soviets to win the Cold War too.

Some people and politicians were rooting for a recession too. Likely UC football fans.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Yeah but the cost of scholarships is a little misleading. It isnt really an expense. And it isnt like they arent letting in more "regular" paying students because they have 15 basketball players on scholarship.

It is actually exactly an expense, and in nearly every case, it is the largest digit on the Expense half of the P&L. Xavier Athletics, like every other department, cuts a check to the school, so to speak, for the tuition for their scholarship athletes. It is, by definition, exactly an expense. Last time I saw a Xavier Athletics' budget it was a two point something million dollar expense that the AD has to account for.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It is actually exactly an expense, and in nearly every case, it is the largest digit on the Expense half of the P&L. Xavier Athletics, like every other department, cuts a check to the school, so to speak, for the tuition for their scholarship athletes. It is, by definition, exactly an expense. Last time I saw a Xavier Athletics' budget it was a two point something million dollar expense that the AD has to account for.

It is the school paying itself. It is ridiculous. It is like a husband and wife who share all their finances and the husband gives the wife a check for the water bill.

Except that is probably a bad analogy because they money is actually going to someone besides the husband or wife. I can't even think of a good real world one. Maybe like transferring money from your checking to your savings?

[GoMuskies]

It depends on the school as to what extent it's a REAL expense. I mean, any school that adds a couple hundred additional non-paying students is adding real expense. You're either kicking out paying students or you're having to hire additional staff (profs, admin, etc) to handle the extra students. But for some schools, there's actually enough demand that every single spot could be filled with a paying student. For those schools, the scholarship dollars are a very real expense. Wright State is not one of those schools.

[xubrew]

It is the school paying itself. It is ridiculous. It is like a husband and wife who share all their finances and the husband gives the wife a check for the water bill.

Except that is probably a bad analogy because they money is actually going to someone besides the husband or wife. I can't even think of a good real world one. Maybe like transferring money from your checking to your savings?

Transferring money from checking to savings is a great analogy!

Fact. Scholarships are reported as both an expense and as generated revenue. The net result is zero. Every single time.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Here is an article discussing this very thing:

https://deadspin.com/how-athletic-departments-and-the-media-fudge-the-cost-1570827027

Here is a quote from the article to Go's point above:

"What they cost depends a lot on the school. At schools with capped enrollment—where the dorm rooms are full, where profit margins on food and books are low, where little or no institutional financial aid is given to non-athletes—the list cost might well be close to correct. At schools with a desire to grow enrollment—where there's still dorm space and where profit margins on food and books are healthy—the actual cost might be pennies (or at least dimes) on the dollar of listed cost."

[D-West & PO-Z]

"As Brian Goff and Dennis Wilson very perceptively have written, athletic departments are trying to walk a rhetorical tightrope. They want to hide their profits to make it easier to keep them away from other would-be claimants. They also want to avoid looking so poor that other stakeholders within academia use sports' apparent poverty to strip them of power. Rhetoric that turns a price into a cost, and a transfer of profit into a loss of money, helps play a role in confusing things enough that the moment in the magic trick where the profit is moved from one pocket to the other gets obscured."

[D-West & PO-Z]

Here's another article also from 2014, this one from ESPN.

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10851446/sports-programs-nation-top-public-colleges-thrived-economic-downturn-earning-record-revenues


"Salaries and scholarships make up two of the largest expense categories for most programs, but tuition is another cost that sports economists dispute, because they say the costs are inflated and it's more of a transfer among university departments than an actual expense.

"These tuition expenses are soft dollars," Goff said. "For that extra basketball player, it doesn't cost an extra $30,000 a year to keep that guy on campus. We could debate for a long time what exactly is the cost, but it's a lot less than the full actual tuition rate.""

[Masterofreality]

some people rooted for the soviets to win the cold war too.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............buuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrr nnnnnnnn!!!!!! :-)

[UCGRAD4X]

The good new is, they are going to change jock straps. The bad news is, Q is changing with Scruggs, Naji is changing with Tyrique, Carter is changing with Freemantle because they're both white....I think the coaching staff is
in solidarity with this.

sorry wrong thread

see: we need a change