Cincinnati loses 2022 tourney game

[D-West & PO-Z]

Just saw this on fbook from the Enquirer. Moving from US Bank (which apparently is Heritage Bank Center now?) to Indy.

Place is such a dump and the requisite renovations were not completed.

Too bad, was looking forward to tourney games in Cincy.

[Juice]

Thank god we have the streetcar and the new music venue.

The local governments shouldn't fund any of this shit, but a renovated US Bank/Heritage Bank is way more valuable/useful than the music venue or streetcar, especially with a better music venue being built across the river.

[sirthought]

Thank god we have the streetcar and the new music venue.

The local governments shouldn't fund any of this shit, but a renovated US Bank/Heritage Bank is way more valuable/useful than the music venue or streetcar, especially with a better music venue being built across the river.

Bullsh!t. The arena would add about as much to the local economy as two gas stations. The business is showy, but fairly sporadic. They have few guaranteed revenue streams and the outlay for a private business doesn't justify public investment. The arena owner needs to get his own loans and do the work themselves. They can. They are a very profitable venue, despite all the griping people do about it. Profitable, though, because they haven't upgraded. The plan they floated to the city trying to get out of ownership, but still hold the contract to run the business was laughable.

Time will tell on the music venue, but it will be operating year round on multiple nights. And the public investment there is just for some parking infrastructure that they'd have spent for the Banks no matter what went in there. I really wanted PromoWest to be the operator there and have healthy competition with MEMI, but powerful people in town said we risked sinking the CSO if MEMI was to go out of businesses due to competition.

The streetcar has been hampered by Cranley not getting on board with making it a success. It wasn't the greatest plan to begin with, but it was a start and killing off the Clifton rout was a huge blow. We bought our cars together with Kansas City and their system is thriving, packed, and they will be expanding. But still, the amount of business development around our streetcar line has been substantial, and several key businesses have stated they moved where they did because of the streetcar.

[XU 87]

Yep, it's all Cranley's fault that 1) no one rides the streetcar because it really doesn't go anywhere and 2) those that do don't pay.

[sirthought]

Yep, it's all Cranley's fault that 1) no one rides the streetcar because it really doesn't go anywhere and 2) those that do don't pay.

It's Cranley's fault that they didn't do the traffic studies to make them run more efficiently and that they had to use the payment system they did in the first place. And it is his fault, along with Kasich, that we lost the funding to go to Clifton. And he wasted more than $100,000 trying to fight the thing that voters said they wanted.

Those issues all tie into who thinks about riding it now.

[94GRAD]

It's Cranley's fault that they didn't do the traffic studies to make them run more efficiently and that they had to use the payment system they did in the first place. And it is his fault, along with Kasich, that we lost the funding to go to Clifton. And he wasted more than $100,000 trying to fight the thing that voters said they wanted.

Those issues all tie into who thinks about riding it now.

They should have used a trolleybus system like the $1 to ride Southbank Shuttle in NKY. They would have been able to move the routes during festivals and spent 1/10th of the cost of the streetcar while making money!

[XU 87]

It's Cranley's fault that they didn't do the traffic studies to make them run more efficiently and that they had to use the payment system they did in the first place. And it is his fault, along with Kasich, that we lost the funding to go to Clifton. And he wasted more than $100,000 trying to fight the thing that voters said they wanted.

Those issues all tie into who thinks about riding it now.

If we just had that traffic study, that would have changed everything! Either that, or this was a terrible idea that was doomed for failure from the start.

[sirthought]

They should have used a trolleybus system like the $1 to ride Southbank Shuttle in NKY. They would have been able to move the routes during festivals and spent 1/10th of the cost of the streetcar while making money!

I disagree. Those things hold so few people and there is no tie-in landmark for real estate like there is with a permanent line. I ride the trolley to Downtown every week, then ride the streetcar. Thankful that the trolleybuss is near me, but the streetcar would definitely be better.

The next city administration is going to have to get behind it and figure out how to improve growth, or they are just going to be digging a deeper hole. Having a mayor that's not championing one your biggest infrastructure projects is the exact opposite of progress.

[sirthought]

If we just had that traffic study, that would have changed everything! Either that, or this was a terrible idea that was doomed for failure from the start.

Traffic studies hadn't been done for decades. The time of the traffic lights directly impacts how smoothly the streetcars run on time. The more they run on time, the more positively people view using it. Not hard to understand.

Cranely actively tried to avoid doing the study in order to not improve efficiency. Just a dick move.

[Juice]

Traffic studies hadn't been done for decades. The time of the traffic lights directly impacts how smoothly the streetcars run on time. The more they run on time, the more positively people view using it. Not hard to understand.

Cranely actively tried to avoid doing the study in order to not improve efficiency. Just a dick move.

Jesus, you drink the PG/Landsmen/Seelbach kool aid I see.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

They should have used a trolleybus system like the $1 to ride Southbank Shuttle in NKY. They would have been able to move the routes during festivals and spent 1/10th of the cost of the streetcar while making money!

Buses aren't proven to increase nearby property values like fixed rail does. If anything bus stops are viewed as negatives. And public transportation is never profitable. Not in NYC, not in Europe, nowhere. Those that expect the streetcar to be profitable are people with zero knowledge of how public transportation works.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

Jesus, you drink the PG/Landsmen/Seelbach kool aid I see.

The fact that a traffic study hasn't been done in decades is just idiotic from countless mayors and councilmen/women. Since the last traffic study all of these things and more have happened downtown: Rebuild of FWW, creation of the banks, moving fountain square, development of OTR, creation of Great American tower, addition of the streetcar, creation of government square, development of the casino, ect.

You think the traffic patterns from the early 90's are the same as what people are doing today? The study would make getting around downtown faster and safer for everyone. Drivers, pedestrians, bus riders and streetcar riders. But hur dur the streetcar is dumb so a traffic study isn't needed.

[XUGRAD80]

Well this thread went down the tubes in quick order, didn’t it?

I’m certainly not surprised that the games are being moved. I think they were just be used as leverage to try and get SOMEBODY to invest in that dump, and that they probably had Indy in mind as a backup all along.

No reason to believe that either the city or the county will ever be that somebody either. Prediction.....There will be an new arena in NKY before the riverfront one is ever redone completely.

[sirthought]

Well this thread went down the tubes in quick order, didn’t it?

I’m certainly not surprised that the games are being moved. I think they were just be used as leverage to try and get SOMEBODY to invest in that dump, and that they probably had Indy in mind as a backup all along.

No reason to believe that either the city or the county will ever be that somebody either. Prediction.....There will be an new arena in NKY before the riverfront one is ever redone completely.

Why should they be the ones to overhaul it? They don't own it. How many business owners have a government entity pay for their upgrades?

There's lot of evidence to see that government owned venues like this are money losers.

[Muskie in dayton]

And it is his fault, along with Kasich, that we lost the funding to go to Clifton.

Yes, if they would have just run that damn thing to Clifton, droves of people who make that commute to and fro daily would have filled it and pumped millions, if not billions, into the Cincinnati economy. F—- that Cranley.

[drudy23]

Why should they be the ones to overhaul it? They don't own it. How many business owners have a government entity pay for their upgrades?


Mike Brown, for one.

[XUGRAD80]

Why should they be the ones to overhaul it? They don't own it. How many business owners have a government entity pay for their upgrades?

There's lot of evidence to see that government owned venues like this are money losers.

It seems to be SOP in Cincinnati/Hamilton Co. doesn’t it? Not that I AM in favor of it though, I’m not. However, us NKY people really love that you’ve built us some new stadiums. Now if you could just get some good teams to play in them.....

[slysyl]

Have fun paying a toll to come to Cincinnati to work, and watch our bad teams play.

[XUGRAD80]

Have fun paying a toll to come to Cincinnati to work, and watch our bad teams play.

I don’t do either of those things anymore......yay!

[xubrew]

Any school that wants to host NCAA Tournament games is nuts.

[XUGRAD80]

Any school that wants to host NCAA Tournament games is nuts.

Why? Not making an argument one way or the other, just curious as to why you say that. What do you see as the problems and negatives?

[xubrew]

Why? Not making an argument one way or the other, just curious as to why you say that. What do you see as the problems and negatives?

If you work for a school that is hosting an NCAA event, you do all their work for them, you don't get paid, and if your own team is in the tournament it very likely means you're missing it because you're stuck behind. There is no benefit to it at all. It's essentially five days of putting aside all of your day to day responsibilities so you can do chores for the NCAA

[Xville]

If you work for a school that is hosting an NCAA event, you do all their work for them, you don't get paid, and if your own team is in the tournament it very likely means you're missing it because you're stuck behind. There is no benefit to it at all. It's essentially five days of putting aside all of your day to day responsibilities so you can do chores for the NCAA

If there were no benefits, schools wouldn't do it. It has tangible benefits to the cities in which the schools are located, which is beneficial to the school in a myriad of ways.

[xubrew]

If there were no benefits, schools wouldn't do it. It has tangible benefits to the cities in which the schools are located, which is beneficial to the school in a myriad of ways.

A lot of schools don't do it. A lot of schools that do do it, particularly the UNC branch campuses, kind of do it reluctantly. And a lot of schools that do it thinking it's going to be great end up not wanting to do it anymore.

If schools want to do it, then great! They can knock themselves out! To me, these mythical benefits that the NCAA speaks of are simply that. Mythical. They some how con people into doing all their work for them, and on top of that convince them that they're getting all these benefits out of it. That's actually a pretty unique superpower. I don't see how Drake, or Jacksonville, or Tulsa, or....I don't even remember who else hosted last year, benefited from it.

I do remember that South Carolina complained about how they never got to host, then were given the opportunity, and before the tournament even started were wanting to back out of it. I did get a kick out of that.

[paulxu]

Unless you're Dayton...where apparently not a lot goes on...so this "first four" thing is some gigantic deal.

[Xville]

A lot of schools don't do it. A lot of schools that do do it, particularly the UNC branch campuses, kind of do it reluctantly. And a lot of schools that do it thinking it's going to be great end up not wanting to do it anymore.

If schools want to do it, then great! They can knock themselves out! To me, these mythical benefits that the NCAA speaks of are simply that. Mythical. They some how con people into doing all their work for them, and on top of that convince them that they're getting all these benefits out of it. That's actually a pretty unique superpower. I don't see how Drake, or Jacksonville, or Tulsa, or....I don't even remember who else hosted last year, benefited from it.

I do remember that South Carolina complained about how they never got to host, then were given the opportunity, and before the tournament even started were wanting to back out of it. I did get a kick out of that.

Louisville loves it because it brings revenue to the city thru a myriad of ways, not directly to the school but it does come back in an indirect fashion. That is a good thing for the partnership between the school and the city. Frankly, I think you are being pretty shortsighted here.

[xubrew]

Perhaps, but I'm also rather certain that you do not actually know anyone who works at UL and "loves it" when they host NCAA Tournament games.

[Xville]

Perhaps, but I'm also rather certain that you do not actually know anyone who works at UL and "loves it" when they host NCAA Tournament games.

Your original premise was that any school that hosts a tournament game is nuts. Though on an individual basis, it's not the most fun thing to do as you pointed out, louisville chooses to host for a multitude of positive reasons. I do know many people high up in the school administration as well as at the yum center on a business level and from a city/school partnership perspective it is seen as a financial boost.

Now I can be wrong and maybe louisville and the city's relationship with the school is different than every other city in america but I'm going to assume that's not the case.

[sirthought]

Some cities' situations are great where the venue and town are ready from the word GO. They have long done the groundwork to bring in the crowds and handle the people easily. I'd say Indy is one of those towns overall.

Others, they have to scramble and pull off so many things, things that aren't normally in their wheelhouse, that the economic revenue gained by tourism is a net loss. And when you see the early rounds on TV it's always so surprising to me how many empty seats you see. That means all the work to prepare for those masses was wasted effort. The window for that audience is so small.

An entire region really has to prepare to host big events like this every year to make it attractive. (Great example is Lexington for the World Equine Games. They had so little infrastructure to handle it. Not sure it's paid for itself yet.)

I know the people with the Cincinnati USA Sports Commission want us to be there. Things like the arena, convention hotels, and public transportation aren't helping them. It all needs to be better for that to work. But the city would be better off buying land on their own and building an arena from scratch than deal with paying the land, demo and development of the arena at the Banks now.

[XUGRAD80]

I predict that with the building of the soccer stadium and the two new music venues on either side of the river, that the arena remains a dump and nobody makes a major push to either replace or royally revamp it within the next decade. When it was built, there was hopes of luring an NBA team and/or an NHL team. Since then there has been a new baseball and new football stadium built..at taxpayer cost. I can’t imagine that there would be any support for another increase in taxes to pay for it, and I don’t see where the 300+ million is going to come from any private entity. None of the college arenas have the size that the NCAA thinks they need for the games, so I can’t see Cincinnati being in the running for games anytime in the foreseeable future.

[xubrew]

Your original premise was that any school that hosts a tournament game is nuts. Though on an individual basis, it's not the most fun thing to do as you pointed out, louisville chooses to host for a multitude of positive reasons. I do know many people high up in the school administration as well as at the yum center on a business level and from a city/school partnership perspective it is seen as a financial boost.

Now I can be wrong and maybe louisville and the city's relationship with the school is different than every other city in america but I'm going to assume that's not the case.

I don't know. I guess "Nuts" was the first word that came to mind when I think of how far backwards people bend over to do all the NCAA's work for them, and basically turn themselves into a wait staff close to a week, and then watch as the NCAA basically takes all the money on their way out of town. Furthermore, I'm kind of amazed at how people are convinced that hosting games is some sort of privilege instead of a chore that you're doing for someone else while getting nothing in return. I need more people like that in my life!! If Louisville likes that arrangement, then good for them. A lot of schools do not like doing it, which is why they never do it.

Now, to be fair, I am jesting a little bit here. There are reasons to do it. When Kentucky did it, I thought it had something to do with Mitch Barnhart wanting on (and getting on) the selection committee when it was the SEC's turn to have someone. I think UNCG and UNCA are routinely pressured into doing it by the UNC BOT for...well...obvious reasons. And, yeah, I'm sure there are some places out there that just like the idea of doing it. Some people like living where the party is even if it means buying all the booze, cleaning up all the mess, and paying for anything that gets broken. Others just like going to the party, and oftentimes don't even realize who actually lives in the house that's having it and then going home afterwards with no worries. I'm the latter. Especially now.

[sirthought]

Using Louisville as an example of this working is misguided. Cincinnati taxpayers should definitely take caution when looking at the Yum Center.

Debts for KFC 'Yum Center' stadium in Louisville swell to $1B (https://www.constructiondive.com/news/debts-for-kfc-yum-center-stadium-in-louisville-swell-to-1b/527917/)


The $238 million KFC Yum Center, which opened in 2010 and is home to University of Louisville basketball, as well as sold-out concerts and other events, was not the economic slam dunk it was supposed to be, even though it was completed on time and within budget. The city of Louisville, Kentucky, is on the hook for the venue's growing debt, increasing from $573 million in 2007 to $942 million by 2017, according to the Louisville Courier Journal. Combined with the state's initial contribution of $75 million, that brings the total cost to $1 billion. The city is expected to pay $300 million toward the arena during the next 30 years.


Decisions and events that left the city and taxpayers with this debt include the selection of a waterfront site that was $147 million more than another suitable site; foregoing an income-generating hotel on the property; a Great Recession bond deal, in a move to save the project, that increased the city's total debt to approximately $840 million; an underperforming tax increment financing district (TIF) that generated almost $14 million less than expected in the first three years; calculations based on outdated information; escalating annual debt payments; a bond refinance deal that added $100 million to the city's tab and a bad deal with the university that saw the school collect record revenue while limiting its obligation to pass that along to the city. During a lease renegotiation, the university increased the percentage it paid the city.


According to the Harvard Political Review, cities usually end up with a raw deal when they decide to finance sports stadiums. In fact, 83% of economists polled as part of a University of Chicago study said these projects end up costing taxpayers more than the value of the local benefits they're promised. For example, the city of Detroit cut pensions for retirees, according to the International Business Times, on the same day that plans for the taxpayer-funded Red Wings hockey arena were announced.

Like in the case of the Yum Center, cities often use tax-free bonds to finance their contributions, but some lawmakers were intent on removing that ability through last year's $1.5 trillion tax reform bill. However, during the last few days of negotiations, that provision of the bill was removed.

[Xville]

Using Louisville as an example of this working is misguided. Cincinnati taxpayers should definitely take caution when looking at the Yum Center.

Debts for KFC 'Yum Center' stadium in Louisville swell to $1B (https://www.constructiondive.com/news/debts-for-kfc-yum-center-stadium-in-louisville-swell-to-1b/527917/)

I'm well aware of the economic situation between the yum center and the city of louisville. However, that is a separate issue than tournament games being played at yum and why it is seen as a net positive by the city of louisville and the school.

[noteggs]

Interesting they quoted an economists study at the University of Chicago. Guess Chicago and DePaul didn’t look in their own backyard for advice when the decided to build Wintrust. Amazing how many times officials say, “just build it and people will come.”