It sucks to suck

[XUOHTX]

Ok before you kill me, maybe we don't "suck" but I'm so used to being the flagship. I'm used to being surprised if we aren't the favorite. I'm used to knowing we could beat anyone. I'm used to expecting a W at home.

I'm not used to feeling the way I do now and I hate it.

That is all.

[GoMuskies]

No, we suck.

[Xuperman]

No, we suck.

Can everybody stop this nonsense. STATISTICALLY we have SIX of the TOP PLAYERS in the Big East depending on what metric you look at...Teams that “suck” don’t.

[Xville]

Can everybody stop this nonsense. STATISTICALLY we have SIX of the TOP PLAYERS in the Big East depending on what metric you look at...Teams that “suck” don’t.

Who cares about bs individual metrics?? We suck in the only things that actually matter...W-L and Top 100 wins. We suck in both. Good thing is that there is help on the horizon.

[GoMuskies]

Can everybody stop this nonsense. STATISTICALLY we have SIX of the TOP PLAYERS in the Big East depending on what metric you look at...Teams that “suck” don’t.

Apparently, they do (or at least can). Self-evidently.

[scoscox]

Can everybody stop this nonsense. STATISTICALLY we have SIX of the TOP PLAYERS in the Big East depending on what metric you look at...Teams that “suck” don’t.

I'd love to see the numbers you're looking at for that stat. I could see 4 at most being near the top, but if you're including naji and quentin they are nowhere near the top. They're incredibly inefficient right now.

[GoMuskies]

And I like Welage and Hankins...but to rate them among the top players in the Big East?!?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

We don't suck, Loyola sucks. We are below average for a power conference team, way below average. I think even if they fix it and suddenly play 40 minutes and Steele makes great in game adjustment, they would be average to slightly above average.

[bjf123]

Who cares about bs individual metrics?? We suck in the only things that actually matter...W-L and Top 100 wins. We suck in both. Good thing is that there is help on the horizon.

^^^^This^^^^


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[paulxu]

And I like Welage and Hankins...but to rate them among the top players in the Big East?!?

I'm not saying top players.
But Hankins leads the BE in FG%. And Jones is 5th.
Naji is second in rebounds, and Q is 2nd in assists and 4th in steals.
Welage has made the 3rd most 3 pointers in the league, despite playing only 21 minutes/game. The 2 guys ahead of him play 30.

Somehow we are not putting it all together for W's.
If Seton Hall is an example, we just get sloppy and give it all up in the last 10 minutes. Maybe tired.

[X Factor]

Can everybody stop this nonsense. STATISTICALLY we have SIX of the TOP PLAYERS in the Big East depending on what metric you look at...Teams that “suck” don’t.

Big East Stats

Xavier

8th in scoring defense

10th in scoring margin

8th in FT %

7th in FG% defense

8th in 3pt %

9th in 3pt % defense

9th in turnover margin

9th in defensive rebound %

[XUGRAD80]

Big East Stats

Xavier

8th in scoring defense

10th in scoring margin

8th in FT %

7th in FG% defense

8th in 3pt %

9th in 3pt % defense

9th in turnover margin

9th in defensive rebound %

Well I guess that TEAMS that “suck” CAN have players that are good in some areas, but not in others.

Does it “suck” to root for a team that “sucks”? Sure it does. But looking on the bright side we need to realize that it’s probably just temporary. Unlike what some other fans have been going through for YEARS, we only go through this once in a very long while anymore. So we just gotta “suck it up” this year and get through it. I believe that the lack of quality depth is the biggest problem that this team has and I firmly believe that problem will be taken care of starting next year.

[Lloyd Braun]

Big East Stats

Xavier

8th in scoring defense

10th in scoring margin

8th in FT %

7th in FG% defense

8th in 3pt %

9th in 3pt % defense

9th in turnover margin

9th in defensive rebound %

How about FT% Defense?

[Xuperman]

I'm not saying top players.
But Hankins leads the BE in FG%. And Jones is 5th.
Naji is second in rebounds, and Q is 2nd in assists and 4th in steals.
Welage has made the 3rd most 3 pointers in the league, despite playing only 21 minutes/game. The 2 guys ahead of him play 30.

Somehow we are not putting it all together for W's.
If Seton Hall is an example, we just get sloppy and give it all up in the last 10 minutes. Maybe tired.

Thanks Paul.
I should have said near the top....let's not forget Scruggs and his .457 3P%.

[UCGRAD4X]

We're in the ultimate "sneak-up-on-em" mode.

Just imagine how satisfying it will be when a team that sucks (comparatively) rises like the proverbial Phoenix and becomes the Juggernaut of the Big East.

It's just a matter of time......

[XUOHTX]

Well I guess that TEAMS that “suck” CAN have players that are good in some areas, but not in others.

Does it “suck” to root for a team that “sucks”? Sure it does. But looking on the bright side we need to realize that it’s probably just temporary. Unlike what some other fans have been going through for YEARS, we only go through this once in a very long while anymore. So we just gotta “suck it up” this year and get through it. I believe that the lack of quality depth is the biggest problem that this team has and I firmly believe that problem will be taken care of starting next year.

Agreed. As I wrote the OP I kept thinking. At least it's temporary. Could be much worse.

[xukeith]

People are freaking out and panicking here.

X is not Duke, UK, UNC, Kansas, or Michigan.

They can freak out.

This year, X would be in top 2-3 of A10.

Because X is in BE, X might have "great" seasons every 4-5 years and a poor season 2-3 times every 8 years.

Would you be happier in A10?

Think about the Maryland fans.

[GoMuskies]

I haven't seen anyone freaking out or panicking. We just know we have a bad team this year and have accepted it. No one thinks this is the permanent state of play.

[Xuperman]

I'd love to see the numbers you're looking at for that stat. I could see 4 at most being near the top, but if you're including naji and quentin they are nowhere near the top.

https://bigeastconf_ftp.sidearmsports.com/custompages/sports/m-baskbl/2018-2019/confldrs.htm#conf.wki

[scoscox]

Was this supposed to support your point? Because it did not

[Xuperman]

Was this supposed to support your point? Because it did not

Yes it did. You posted that you would “love to know” so I clicked on my IPad and posted the link to satisfy you.
Naj #2 in rebounds
Q #2 in assists
Zach #1 in FG%
Paul #5 in 3P%....Welly #10
Ty #2 on the O glass
Not too shab for a team that sucks

[xu koop scoop]

UC sUCks. They own that trademark. We are Xtra Bad to Mediocre at Best this year. Hopeful for Dance or at least NIT. Need to be .500 overall for NIT. Maybe we can win 2nd NIT Title 60 yrs after 1st one

[xudash]

"I think the biggest thing for us is to take care of the ball," said Steele. "You go back and watch the film of the Seton Hall game and I don't think it was anything, again, no disrespect to them, they won the game, but the turnovers really had nothing to do with them. They had everything to do with us and our decision making. We gotta clean that up. We showed film to our guys and tried to put our guys in situations at practice so they make better decisions when they're tired."

We'll see if lessons can be learned. We'll see if key players respect their HC and listen up.

[muskieindent]

This is the first year since we've joined the BE that we are having a down year. Unfortunately a down year in this league could result in a lot of L's. I hope it's just a one off .Still a lot of games left this year so I'm hoping we see improvement from everyone. Just not enough talent on this team. Only 10 scholarship players and no high impact freshman.

[muskienick]

I don't feel quite so badly about our Muskies today since the Bearcraps lost today to one of the AAC's directional Schools (East Carolina)!!!

[sirthought]

I don't feel quite so badly about our Muskies today since the Bearcraps lost today to one of the AAC's directional Schools (East Carolina)!!!

That ECU team has two freshmen and a sophomore who I wish played at Xavier. They were smart, tough, and playing in control in that game.

[muskienick]

That ECU team has two freshmen and a sophomore who I wish played at Xavier. They were smart, tough, and playing in control in that game.

And yet with all that supposed talent, ECU is ranked 259 in the NET, 248 in Sagarins, and 269 in RPI ..............
............................................while XU is ranked 78 in the NET, 64 in Sagarins, and 90 in RPI.

I think I'll stick with our Muskies to follow over this and the coming years.

[stammina0721]

We have not been a flagship program since joining the Big East. Top tier no doubt, but Nova has been the flagship program in this conference

[XUOHTX]

Ugh. Again.

[bjf123]

As I said in the game thread, this team could be the first since Bob Staak’s 3rd season (‘81-‘82, 8-20) to lose 20. That was also the last time we had a losing conference record of 1-11. We might not lose 20, but the conference streak is definitely over this year.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Assuming we lose 1 in New York we would need to win just 4 the rest of the way. I think we win another 5-6 games.




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[OTRMUSKIE]

Well if we have all these top players then Steele sucks which means we are going to suck for a long time. The good news is he doesn’t suck. However we do suck. It’s okay though bc we will be back next year or the year after next. Makes you appreciate not being a Dayton fan. Could you imagine sucking all
The time? Everything will be fine. Just goes to show you there is a reason our 3 transfers didn’t
Play at high D1 schools.

[Xuperman]

Remember the chin.

[bleedXblue]

As I said in the game thread, this team could be the first since Bob Staak’s 3rd season (‘81-‘82, 8-20) to lose 20. That was also the last time we had a losing conference record of 1-11. We might not lose 20, but the conference streak is definitely over this year.


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was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?

[Drew]

We have not been a flagship program since joining the Big East. Top tier no doubt, but Nova has been the flagship program in this conference

If there can only be one flagship then yea, Nova is obviously that. But we have been the clear #2. Tournament every year. Multiple months ranked in the top #10. Elite eight, a 1 seed and a 2 seed. And that is all over 5 years.

[xu82]

Temporary setback.


That’s what I keep telling myself about this year.
Not shocking in any way.

[IM4X]

Not sure if there is a link to this piece (which was written after The SH game) posted somewhere else on the board already. I do know it was worth reading. Pretty detailed and spot on- supported by real stats and other objective truths.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bannersontheparkway.com/platform/amp/2019/1/4/18168402/what-i-didnt-expect-xavier-basketball-steele

[stammina0721]

If there can only be one flagship then yea, Nova is obviously that. But we have been the clear #2. Tournament every year. Multiple months ranked in the top #10. Elite eight, a 1 seed and a 2 seed. And that is all over 5 years.

Absolutely agree. When I think flagship I think of the first team that comes to mind when you say a conference name... Big East is Nova, Big Ten MSU, ACC Duke, SEC UK and so on. Maybe a little gray area in some conferences like with Indiana or UNC, but that is just my definition.

[GetUp5]

We suck. But we sucked the first year of the Chris Mack era, too.

We will be good again. Starting next season.

[GoMuskies]

We suck. But we sucked the first year of the Chris Mack era, too.


Totally. We sucked all the way to the Sweet Sixteen and a double OT classic against Kansas State.

[Blue Blooded-05]

We suck. But we sucked the first year of the Chris Mack era, too.

We will be good again. Starting next season.

We made it to double OT in the Sweet 16 in Mack’s first year. That’s hardly sucking. Maybe you’re thinking of the first year of the Miller era?

Also, I am sorry for being pessimistic, but why is everyone so convinced next year will be better? Our returners still won’t be able to defend. We lose our only consistent shooting threat, which means we’ll be relying on a freshman or grad transfer...

On that point...
- Who have been our most “ready” true freshmen over the past 10 years or so... Semaj? Dez? Trevon? If you added any of them to this year’s roster (as freshman), would we be seeing different results?

- How could any potential grad transfer watch film of this year’s grad transfers and not question whether it’s the right fit for their last year of college basketball?

I want this to be a one year hiatus more than anyone, but I just can’t objectively see it.

[Masterofreality]

People, this team is deteriorating. No skill development. Same mistakes/turnovers every game. No player on this roster is better now than Game 1. (Paul was great from Game 1 and was a true 4 star so he doesn't qualify here) Stuff learned from the staff last year is fading away. Not having much confidence in this whole staff right about now.
I’m not even just knocking Travis. But I’m convinced that a good assistant staff is underrated. Pegues made our bigs better for example. Seems like Travis made selections based on recruiting more than on court coaching because I see zero player advancement & arguably guys are worse.#Reality

If we don't win these next two at home vs teams we can beat, it's a looooooooooong slog to the season ending swamp.

[Masterofreality]

Totally. We sucked all the way to the Sweet Sixteen and a double OT classic against Kansas State.

We had Tu Holloway and an NBA ready Jordan Crawford as basket getters. Don't have anything like that on this roster.

[GoMuskies]

We had Tu Holloway and an NBA ready Jordan Crawford as basket getters. Don't have anything like that on this roster.

Of course not. But we didn't suck. Not until after the "Dez Wells Affair". Nice of us to allow the A-10 jokers to all get their shots in on us our last time through the league.

[Masterofreality]

Of course not. But we didn't suck. Not until after the "Dez Wells Affair". Nice of us to allow the A-10 jokers to all get their shots in on us our last time through the league.

Welp. Glad we'll be collecting some NCAA credits through the league this year. Cause we sure aren't earning any.
Thank Gawd we're not paying Fordham anymore

[BigMoeMusketeer]

One down year isn't the end of the world, or necessarily the beginning of some slide into oblivion. Butler went 4-14 in 2014 and a year later was 12-6 in the league and 2nd place. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[whopper]

We had 6 losses in a row 2 years ago(elite 8) but were waiting for Tre to come back and (sadly) to get Q as a replacement for Sumner. We are not waiting for anyone now. I feel bad for the grad transfers who kind of thought they were slotted for replacing Sean/Kerem (Zach) and a poor man's Tre in Ryan. Kyle could be an inspector gadget glue guy. Losing Kaiser is forgotten but watching g league highlights he has found his missing 3 stroke. I hope we can at least make the NIT as running the table at MSG seems ridiculous now, getting to Thurs would be the goal(although they did play Depaul on Wed in 2017. Good luck to my favorite team and I will wear the colors proud

[BigMoeMusketeer]

I hope we can at least make the NIT

It is hard to fathom any path between now and MSG that results in us having a winning record for the season.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Don’t underestimate the value of having high division 1 talent up and down a bench. It allows a coach to give minutes to the talent regardless of situation. We have 10 guys now and 7 high D1 talent. Now, two of those Jones and Goodin are underperforming. Harden is underperforming for his class.

Having 12-13 high D1 guys in the bench is huge for managing minutes and play quality over 40 minutes. We had 10 last season but really because 9 were all high quality players.

Before we all crap on Jones and Goodin, there are a lot of players on rosters who would be terrible when defenses pack the lane. Having a couple of long distance shooters opens the lane and makes guy like Marshall and Goodin drive better and makes room for Jones to operate.


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[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

People, this team is deteriorating. No skill development. Same mistakes/turnovers every game. No player on this roster is better now than Game 1. (Paul was great from Game 1 and was a true 4 star so he doesn't qualify here) Stuff learned from the staff last year is fading away. Not having much confidence in this whole staff right about now.
I’m not even just knocking Travis. But I’m convinced that a good assistant staff is underrated. Pegues made our bigs better for example. Seems like Travis made selections based on recruiting more than on court coaching because I see zero player advancement & arguably guys are worse.#Reality

If we don't win these next two at home vs teams we can beat, it's a looooooooooong slog to the season ending swamp.

Jesus, this is depressing. I'm very close here to slitting my wrists.

[XUGRAD80]

Also, I am sorry for being pessimistic, but why is everyone so convinced next year will be better? Our returners still won’t be able to defend. We lose our only consistent shooting threat, which means we’ll be relying on a freshman or grad transfer...


I want this to be a one year hiatus more than anyone, but I just can’t objectively see it.

Xavier’s problem right now is not defense...it’s lack of offense and a short bench that doesn’t allow a good rotation.

At lest 2 of the freshman coming in...Tandy and Bishop...CAN shoot. If the others can give some minutes that allow Jones and Naji to get some rest the team should be a lot better next year. It won’t be an immediate improvement, but at least there will be some building blocks and options that this year’s team does not have.

[scoscox]

Part of the defensive problem is that we have no depth. Our three primary guard's/wings basically never come out

[markchal]

Xavier’s problem right now is not defense...it’s lack of offense and a short bench that doesn’t allow a good rotation.

At lest 2 of the freshman coming in...Tandy and Bishop...CAN shoot.

Kennedy and Harden "can shoot." I'm not exactly counting on frosh to make a dramatic improvement next year. It's gonna be better (has to be), but some of the impact of the frosh and development (?) of the returning guys will be offset by losing Hankins/Welage.

[stammina0721]

Jesus, this is depressing. I'm very close here to slitting my wrists.

Do yourself a favor... Bet against X and make yourself some green... Will take some of the sting away

[XUGRAD80]

Jesus, this is depressing. I'm very close here to slitting my wrists.

Lighten up Francis. :)

[Masterofreality]

Jesus, this is depressing. I'm very close here to slitting my wrists.

Welp, don't do that, obviously, but one can only go by what they see...and what we see is pretty damn bad....and not getting better.
That being said, I'll be back at the House of Cin on Sunday at noon. I also just made my hotel reservation in DC for the Georgetown game on January 31.
Just because we don't like the reality doesn't mean we jump ship.

[whopper]

I think we should use DePaul as an example(this year) of how to deal with the situation. The lost to Northwestern and Boston College (2 quality teams) with horrendous end of game play, then to Xavier(which we like), the were up double digits to a weakened Villanova and Booth willed the win..I was not sure of his NBA potential but he disabused me. They were AT Villanova. I watched the end of X and Villanova, and saw disappointment but good body language, and I saw them hold on to beat Seton Hall and was very glad for Cain, Struss, Butz and company and they embraced the win in front of home crowd. That is the way we have to look at it now..we are not the favorites but have to play hard, keep good body language and see what happens. There will be entertaining games going forward so lets enjoy them. From Conn I will go to Providence and maybe NY or NJ with my X Basketball hoodie. I went back to 2017 to see what Q did in tournament and he averaged 6 pos and 5 asst and 3 rebounds. I was surprised to find that Rui Hachamora had a 3 in garbage time at the end of our game..forrgot about it.

[Xavier]

But I’m convinced that a good assistant staff is underrated. Pegues made our bigs better for example. Seems like Travis made selections based on recruiting more than on court coaching because I see zero player advancement & arguably guys are worse.#Reality


Looking at body language alone I think 3-4 guys wish the season was already over. Player development goes both ways- the biggest leaps coming from work put in over the summer. I don't think its fair to put it all on the coaching staff at this point.


I would be fine if Travis wanted assistants that were better at recruiting than developing. I'd rather land 4 stars then hope to develop the hell out of 3 stars. Simply put- the more talent brought in the higher chance at success.

[Jehoya]

We suck, this season sucks, this team sucks

Watching each game this year is like taking a direct kick to the nuts weekly

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

Couldn't find a perfect thread for this, but it only seems fitting to place this here...

Three guys that Xavier was heavily involved with in the 2018 class are getting 'mocked' in the first round by ESPN:

Jaxson Hayes at 14. (averaging 10/5 and 2.5 blocks)
Talen Horton-Tucker at 24. (13/5/3)
Ayo Dosunmu at 25. (13/4.5/3)

These were all guys who were seriously linked to X late into the recruiting cycle. If X were to have gotten any one of them (even Hayes, alone, I think), this season could have already been off to a different start.

[Xuperman]

Couldn't find a perfect thread for this, but it only seems fitting to place this here...

Three guys that Xavier was heavily involved with in the 2018 class are getting 'mocked' in the first round by ESPN:

Jaxson Hayes at 14. (averaging 10/5 and 2.5 blocks)
Talen Horton-Tucker at 24. (13/5/3)
Ayo Dosunmu at 25. (13/4.5/3)

These were all guys who were seriously linked to X late into the recruiting cycle. If X were to have gotten any one of them (even Hayes, alone, I think), this season could have already been off to a different start.

In the "what if" department.... how about if Gates would have not cut and run. He had no ligit statistical reason to try pro ball. He could have changed that and become the senior leader we are sorely missing, but instead left his teammates holding the bag. Blown chance at redemption IMO.

[XUGRAD80]

Not getting any players like that in the last class, and not getting a few more of them over the last couple of classes, is exactly why X is where it is right now.

[Go Go Golston]

I think its dumb to play the what if game. It certainly plays for and against a program. You can insert anything you want.
What if Ed Pinkney had come to Xavier?
What if TJ Johnson's layup goes in against UMass?
What if Pete Gillen doesn't leave?
What if David West hired an agent after his sophomore year?
What if Tim Chadwell hadn't seen Brian Grant in Georgetown OH?
What if Drew Lavender didn't leave Oklahoma?
What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Aaron Williams tip follow doesn't go in against Georgetown?
What if Kenny Frease lived up to his potential?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

[Strange Brew]

What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

Well, thanks for this. My day is ruined.....

[whopper]

that was a shock to me..he would have been 14 p and 8 Reb and good defense. Wonder how it would have negative effected others like Hankins, Welage,etc.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

I think its dumb to play the what if game. It certainly plays for and against a program. You can insert anything you want.
What if Ed Pinkney had come to Xavier?
What if TJ Johnson's layup goes in against UMass?
What if Pete Gillen doesn't leave?
What if David West hired an agent after his sophomore year?
What if Tim Chadwell hadn't seen Brian Grant in Georgetown OH?
What if Drew Lavender didn't leave Oklahoma?
What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Aaron Williams tip follow doesn't go in against Georgetown?
What if Kenny Frease lived up to his potential?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

If I get to insert anything I want, how about this?

What if Byron Larkin (and his wife) had triplet boys, all great hoops players and they had all come to X to lead this team. That isn't dumb is it?

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

In the "what if" department.... how about if Gates would have not cut and run. He had no ligit statistical reason to try pro ball. He could have changed that and become the senior leader we are sorely missing, but instead left his teammates holding the bag. Blown chance at redemption IMO.

He’s doing pretty well in the G-League, why does a “legit statistical reason” look like? He’s a 6’8 athletic shooter who just turned 22. He wasn’t going to creep into the 1st round unless something crazy happened, so I’d say the timing was about right for him to go. I wish he didn’t, but in hindsight he likely made the correct decision.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

I think its dumb to play the what if game. It certainly plays for and against a program. You can insert anything you want.
What if Ed Pinkney had come to Xavier?
What if TJ Johnson's layup goes in against UMass?
What if Pete Gillen doesn't leave?
What if David West hired an agent after his sophomore year?
What if Tim Chadwell hadn't seen Brian Grant in Georgetown OH?
What if Drew Lavender didn't leave Oklahoma?
What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Aaron Williams tip follow doesn't go in against Georgetown?
What if Kenny Frease lived up to his potential?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

The point of the comment was that we struck out in literally every priority recruit we had, and it’s part of the reason we are in the position we are.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

The point of the comment was that we struck out in literally every priority recruit we had, and it’s part of the reason we are in the position we are.

Understand your point. This whole thread is making me cry.

[noteggs]

Interesting from presser today from Steele

- They may use two bigs in game at same time vs Georgetown.
- Q hasn’t practiced since game on Sunday because of knee.

[XUGRAD80]

I think they almost must use 2 bigs because GT does that a lot in the games I've seen.

[xubrew]

I think its dumb to play the what if game. It certainly plays for and against a program. You can insert anything you want.
What if Ed Pinkney had come to Xavier?
What if TJ Johnson's layup goes in against UMass?
What if Pete Gillen doesn't leave?
What if David West hired an agent after his sophomore year?
What if Tim Chadwell hadn't seen Brian Grant in Georgetown OH?
What if Drew Lavender didn't leave Oklahoma?
What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Aaron Williams tip follow doesn't go in against Georgetown?
What if Kenny Frease lived up to his potential?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

What if the referees had made the correct call on this play that was CLEARLY a foul?? We're playing either Western Kentucky or Texas A&M in the Elite Eight, and I think we would have crushed either one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW5QT70DHhI

[XUOHTX]

Understand your point. This whole thread is making me cry.

This is the correct answer

[Masterofreality]

I know one thing.
Xavier had better win BOTH these home games this week. If we lose one or both it's a loong season ending slog to infamy.

[Masterofreality]

Interesting from presser today from Steele

- They may use two bigs in game at same time vs Georgetown.
- Q hasn’t practiced since game on Sunday because of knee.

Hmmm. Setting up the "Mick Game" by arranging an excuse already?

[Masterofreality]

Looking at body language alone I think 3-4 guys wish the season was already over. Player development goes both ways- the biggest leaps coming from work put in over the summer. I don't think its fair to put it all on the coaching staff at this point.


I would be fine if Travis wanted assistants that were better at recruiting than developing. I'd rather land 4 stars then hope to develop the hell out of 3 stars. Simply put- the more talent brought in the higher chance at success.

I hear ya, but all I saw ALL summer, were Instagrams from Q, Naji & Harden showing that they were in the gym, at 7:00am, 11:00am, 2 pm, 6 pm, 10 pm...whatever. I don't know if they had no place else to go, but it seems that they tried to put work in?

[IM4X]

One thing that stuck in my head was reading Scruggs was working in the gym with a clear focus to improve his 3 point shooting... which he did.

Maybe if Q and Naji had followed his lead with the 3 point shooting, we would see better 3s from those two and maybe it would have lead to 4+ additional wins.

Now Jones had a clear goal to get leaner and improve his endurance... which he has achieved. But just maybe a top goal should have been to get better at defending without not fouling or to get 10+ rebounds a game... or even to work extra every day on improving his foul shooting technique/%.

Still, it is not too late. No, the team does not have quite the same level or depth of talent as last season, but it does have enough talent to play much better and win a lot of games in the process.

If the players and coaches are brutally honest about their shortcomings and can even make a little progress from here on out, they might surprise themselves. Five smarter passes. Seven more rebounds by boxing out bettr on defense so opponents don’t get all of those second and third chances. 2 more open looks for each Wealage, Scruggs and Harden... and anything could happen.

[xu koop scoop]

It sucks to suck at 3's which we still do even after GTown win. We get some 3's the old fashioned way being fouled on made layups - but even then you need to make the shot & the free throw. One goal under all our coaches the past 30 yrs is to make more FT than the other team attempts. We're close having made 243 to opponents 271 attempts. We need to keep driving to the hole & piling up fouls on the opponents. Teams jacking up 25 or so 3's a game usually don't get to the foul line as much since they don't take it to the hole as much. SNot all suck at 3's. Scruggs at 43%. Welage 42%. Harden 38%. Q, Naji, Castlin, Kennedy I think all under 25%. Kudos on the 4 turnover effort vs GTown & the 17-0 run we went on was fabulous. When Naji made steal to end half he might have outran Usain Bolt to the basket. We might suck at 3's all year, but the team can win quite a few on heart & hustle.

[IM4X]

I know one thing.
Xavier had better win BOTH these home games this week. If we lose one or both it's a loong season ending slog to infamy.

Well, they did it and now the season and this team have made things interesting again. Oh, if they could now just take it up another notch with better 3 point shooting.

Great to see the coach and players stepping up and responding.

[xukeith]

6 more home games and 7 road games.
It will be very very tough especially with no bench and no outside shooting.

Looks like X will survive making freethrows and fouling opponents out.

Playing better defense (A LOT) compared to last year. We shall see. 9 BE wins? 10? I hope

[X Factor]

Through 5 conference games, Xavier is shooting 26% from three as a team.

[XUGRAD80]

Through 5 conference games, Xavier is shooting 26% from three as a team.


And that DOES suck.


Two ways to approach it....can keep shooting them and hope they start falling OR can stop shooting them as much and try to score in other ways.

What’s the definition of insanity?

[D-West & PO-Z]

I guess it is promising we have 3 BE wins, including 1 road win while shooting so terribly? It will hopefully improve at least a little. Can't get worse right? Right!??

[Xville]

I think the shooting can get marginally better, but it's not going to improve to the level of us becoming a good 3 pt shooting team. We have maybe 2 good outside shooters on our team in Welage and Scruggs. That's it. Hopefully, the rest of the team realizes that is not an area of strength and instead continue to slash, and get the ball inside. They do that, they can win 9 plus games in this conference.

Over the summer, Q and Naji need to go to the Paul Scruggs shootout camp because whatever he did, it worked.

[xnatic03]

I think its dumb to play the what if game. It certainly plays for and against a program. You can insert anything you want.
What if Ed Pinkney had come to Xavier?
What if TJ Johnson's layup goes in against UMass?
What if Pete Gillen doesn't leave?
What if David West hired an agent after his sophomore year?
What if Tim Chadwell hadn't seen Brian Grant in Georgetown OH?
What if Drew Lavender didn't leave Oklahoma?
What if Justin Cage gets the intentional foul call against OSU?
What if Aaron Williams tip follow doesn't go in against Georgetown?
What if Kenny Frease lived up to his potential?
What if Anthony Myles doesn't foul out against Duke?

What if we chose Kyle Lowry (who wanted to come to X) over Churchill Odia Miller's first year?
You're correct....There are too many what ifs to even worry about them.
We've lived a pretty spoiled existence in the last 30+ years of X fandom, especially for a little Jesuit school in Cincinnati.
Yes, this year is frustrating, but this is a team with a very shallow bench of limited 3 point shooters. A down year for us will likely still be above .500. Miller's first year was not great and Mack's first year post Holloway and the crew was not great either. We go through these from time to time and always bounce back.

[xu koop scoop]

I know one thing.
Xavier had better win BOTH these home games this week. If we lose one or both it's a loong season ending slog to infamy.

Well we beat both GTown & Butler. Both in beautiful come from behind fashion. Coach Steele is improving. Scruggs is improving leaps & bounds.
Tyrique improving. Haskins solid. Castlin showed us why he still plays in Butler game & may be a Malcolm Bernard by end of year. We won those 2 without Q nor very good 3 pt shooting. These guys are playing with heart. Knowing each win is difficult is in many ways more enjoyable than just expecting each game to be a win. Savor the suckiness. It might turn to sweetness by seasons end. Enjoy the bumpy ride. Watching XU since 1960. Seen it all

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Well we beat both GTown & Butler. Both in beautiful come from behind fashion. Coach Steele is improving. Scruggs is improving leaps & bounds.
Tyrique improving. Haskins solid. Castlin showed us why he still plays in Butler game & may be a Malcolm Bernard by end of year. We won those 2 without Q nor very good 3 pt shooting. These guys are playing with heart. Knowing each win is difficult is in many ways more enjoyable than just expecting each game to be a win. Savor the suckiness. It might turn to sweetness by seasons end. Enjoy the bumpy ride. Watching XU since 1960. Seen it all


I have had the same thoughts recently. When I expected X to win, watching them lose was horribly stressful. And, watching them get crushed by Nova, when they were expected to compete, was absolute hell. Free of high expectations and not knowing what to expect, now the games are more interesting to me. Not saying that losing is enjoyable because it is not. But, this year's team is, in some ways, more fun to watch. Also, is interesting to track Steele to determine if he is improving. I appreciate a coach that shows some passion, some emotion and doesn't act robotic.

Speaking of low expectations, I'm hoping X plays hard for the entire game against Nova. I don't expect a win nor even a close game. But, if they battle the entire game (like G.T.), don't hang their heads, keep playing together, keep trying to get better, I might actually enjoy Saturday's game. And, I haven't enjoyed watching X play Nova for forever.

[Xville]

I have had the same thoughts recently. When I expected X to win, watching them lose was horribly stressful. And, watching them get crushed by Nova, when they were expected to compete, was absolute hell. Free of high expectations and not knowing what to expect, now the games are more interesting to me. Not saying that losing is enjoyable because it is not. But, this year's team is, in some ways, more fun to watch. Also, is interesting to track Steele to determine if he is improving. I appreciate a coach that shows some passion, some emotion and doesn't act robotic.

Speaking of low expectations, I'm hoping X plays hard for the entire game against Nova. I don't expect a win nor even a close game. But, if they battle the entire game (like G.T.), don't hang their heads, keep playing together, keep trying to get better, I might actually enjoy Saturday's game. And, I haven't enjoyed watching X play Nova for forever.

Will you be watching the replay on Saturday?:) game is weirdly on Friday night.

[whopper]

true and if you play hard and keep good body language and effort you never can tell. This is a good Villanova team, not a great one.

[Xville]

With mack, I never got excited to play nova. His unwillingness to change the gameplan against a team that absolutely could stroke the ball, put x immediately at a disadvantage. I'm looking forward to the new regime playing against nova and believe there is a good chance we at least dont get blown out of the gym.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

If 'Nova is hitting their threes, we will get boat raced. If they aren't or not at such a high clip, we have a chance to keep it close. This team has shown zero ability to close out on the perimeter.

[XUOHTX]

If 'Nova is hitting their threes, we will get boat raced. If they aren't or not at such a high clip, we have a chance to keep it close. This team has shown zero ability to close out on the perimeter.

I'm loving back to back W's. But since I originally posted and now, I'm not seeing anything that makes me think we can keep it close with Nova.

Edit: I read your post again. I think this line sums up this season. We have a chance to keep it close. As in, we might be able to hopefully maybe not get blown out.

What's the saying you can't build greatness with calluses. This season is a callus.

[xu koop scoop]

It sucks to suck vs Nova. All our "stars" that sucked vs Nova are gone. So is our sucks vs Nova Coach. DePaul almost won at Nova. So we should suck less at Nova than normal. Q needs to play in this game. Nova still lives & dies by the 3 in many games. My buddies used to say before every game we watched, " Just let us have a chance to win in the last 2 minutes. That's entertainment."

[SemajParlor]

Really curious to see the line. If I had to guess -6.5 Nova.

[94GRAD]

Really curious to see the line. If I had to guess -6.5 Nova.

There is no way this line will be single digits!

[Lloyd Braun]

There is no way this line will be single digits!

I could see it open at -9.5 but it should be in the 11-12 range by game time.

Whatever it is you’d be silly to take X who is 1-9 ATS against Nova and 0-5 on the road.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Really curious to see the line. If I had to guess -6.5 Nova.

I'd say you're at least 5 points off...and maybe more.

[Xville]

I think Marquette it ended up being right at 8 if I remember correctly. I think Nova will be right around there...maybe up to 10. The reason we are 1-9 ATS against Nova is because Mack had an awful gameplan that he refused to adjust against Villanova. I don't believe Steele will do the same thing.

I think the only way we arent in this game is if Q and/or Naji shoot us out of it.

[bleedXblue]

I think Marquette it ended up being right at 8 if I remember correctly. I think Nova will be right around there...maybe up to 10. The reason we are 1-9 ATS against Nova is because Mack had an awful gameplan that he refused to adjust against Villanova. I don't believe Steele will do the same thing.

I think the only way we arent in this game is if Q and/or Naji shoot us out of it.

Interesting.........we tend to shit the bed there...sure would be nice to show up, play solid D, don't turn it over a bunch and see what happens.

I don't feel Nova is AS explosive as they have been the last 3-4 years.

[xudash]

Interesting.........we tend to shit the bed there...sure would be nice to show up, play solid D, don't turn it over a bunch and see what happens.

I don't feel Nova is AS explosive as they have been the last 3-4 years.

One of those s-the-bed episodes involved our star player being taken off the court on a gurney. The team wasn't exactly in any kind of mood to play after that on that day.

[Lloyd Braun]

I think Marquette it ended up being right at 8 if I remember correctly. I think Nova will be right around there...maybe up to 10. The reason we are 1-9 ATS against Nova is because Mack had an awful gameplan that he refused to adjust against Villanova. I don't believe Steele will do the same thing.

I think the only way we arent in this game is if Q and/or Naji shoot us out of it.

I think blaming Mack for failure against Nova is a bit of a reach. Sometimes you just have to give credit where it’s due and in this case it’s the guy in a fancy suit holding 2 trophies...

[Xville]

I think blaming Mack for failure against Nova is a bit of a reach. Sometimes you just have to give credit where it’s due and in this case it’s the guy in a fancy suit holding 2 trophies...

I don't blame Mack for losing, I blame him for X getting their ass handed to them by Nova more often times than not. Playing a packline defense and a 1-3-1 zone against a team that shoots lights out is beyond stupid.

Steele's d philosophy certainly still has packline elements, and the defense has certainly struggled on the perimeter, but I feel better having the faith that Steele will make in game adjustments if it is warranted.

[Caf]

By,
still has packline elements do you mean it is the packline?

[SemajParlor]

I'd say you're at least 5 points off...and maybe more.

Yeah, you're probably right. Wish I had a mulligan on that guess to be honest.

[Xville]

By, do you mean it is the packline?

I guess I should have said elements of Mack's packline. I have watched Virginia a few times and again last night, and their packline is much different than what I have seen Mack's defenses do...

1.) Virginia's actually works....that of course may be to personnel but

2.) schematically when an offensive player gets the ball on the wing, the defensive pressure on the ball carrier is intense. Mack's teams instead tend to sag of, still clogging lanes.

There are different elements to the packline.

[American X]

This season is a callus.

This season is a repetitive stress injury.

[Caf]

I guess I should have said elements of Mack's packline. I have watched Virginia a few times and again last night, and their packline is much different than what I have seen Mack's defenses do...

1.) Virginia's actually works....that of course may be to personnel but

2.) schematically when an offensive player gets the ball on the wing, the defensive pressure on the ball carrier is intense. Mack's teams instead tend to sag of, still clogging lanes.

There are different elements to the packline.

I haven't seen any substantial difference between Steele and Mack's approach to the packline. Maybe the only defensive difference overall has been Steele seems more willing to mix it up. Mack really only seemed to switch out of packline when we were desperate.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I think Marquette it ended up being right at 8 if I remember correctly. I think Nova will be right around there...maybe up to 10. The reason we are 1-9 ATS against Nova is because Mack had an awful gameplan that he refused to adjust against Villanova. I don't believe Steele will do the same thing.

I think the only way we arent in this game is if Q and/or Naji shoot us out of it.

You think Vegas knows this? I’ve said Vegas is voodoo...but if the line is 8-10 based on your rationale and X keeps it close due to a first year coach’s adjustments...then I’ll probably quit gambling. That would be next level voodoo.

[Lloyd Braun]

I don't blame Mack for losing, I blame him for X getting their ass handed to them by Nova more often times than not. Playing a packline defense and a 1-3-1 zone against a team that shoots lights out is beyond stupid.

Steele's d philosophy certainly still has packline elements, and the defense has certainly struggled on the perimeter, but I feel better having the faith that Steele will make in game adjustments if it is warranted.

Since the new big east has formed, Nova is 125-73-1 ATS (63% cover rate!). That is #1 in covers since that time nationally. Second is Michigan st with 110-81-5.

Xavier is 8th at 102-86-4. That includes this year which has been not great for X (6-10-2).

At some point you just have to say Jay Wright is a boss and he has more talent .... and Mack was not that bad of a coach.

[xu koop scoop]

As of Wed Jan 16 we are 3-2 in BE play. In sole possession of 3rd place in a 10 team league. 3rd out of 10 don't suck at the moment

[JTG]

Since the new big east has formed, Nova is 125-73-1 ATS (63% cover rate!). That is #1 in covers since that time nationally. Second is Michigan st with 110-81-5.

Xavier is 8th at 102-86-4. That includes this year which has been not great for X (6-10-2).

At some point you just have to say Jay Wright is a boss and he has more talent .... and Mack was not that bad of a coach.

Getting boat raced 9 times by Nova with the talent we had is a coach with a lousy game plan. Especially when during that same time frame, Nova was beaten 3 times by Butler. Butler for gods sake. Butler ? really, and we keep getting crushed. That's a crap game plan on our part. And Mack was the coach.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Getting boat raced 9 times by Nova with the talent we had is a coach with a lousy game plan. Especially when during that same time frame, Nova was beaten 3 times by Butler. Butler for gods sake. Butler ? really, and we keep getting crushed. That's a crap game plan on our part. And Mack was the coach.

You have a point. Some of those losses, to Nova felt like blowouts. And, in games that were supposed to be close, when X had the talent we had, you have to consider if Mack properly prepared his teams. Not tp say Nova didn't have better talent. They frequently did but some of those losses to Nova were god awful.

[Lloyd Braun]

Transitive property doesn’t apply in basketball, sorry. It’s frustrating to get shellacked by Nova, but the point is everyone gets shellacked by them. I think Jay put extra attention on beating X as we had been the biggest threat to unseat them in the league.

[GIMMFD]

Transitive property doesn’t apply in basketball, sorry. It’s frustrating to get shellacked by Nova, but the point is everyone gets shellacked by them. I think Jay put extra attention on beating X as we had been the biggest threat to unseat them in the league.

Agreed, not to mention, they're just more talented at this point and time. They get better recruits, are we moving up the ladder? Yes, definitely, but realistically Nova has not only better talent, but they have coaches that develop and game plan that talent well too. We should be competing with them, and I'm not saying to settle for these blow out losses, but right now, give credit where it's due, Nova is a damn good program, one we should aspire to be like.

[SemajParlor]

Villanova opens at -11

[XUBison]

Transitive property doesn’t apply in basketball, sorry. It’s frustrating to get shellacked by Nova, but the point is everyone gets shellacked by them. I think Jay put extra attention on beating X as we had been the biggest threat to unseat them in the league.

Yeah, ummm... no. Nova has been in plenty of close BE games, certainly many that were more competitive than the rotten eggs we’ve laid against them. We have not put up even token resistance against them, except once. Wright tried harder against X? Really??? Jeez, I wish it had occurred to Mack to try harder against Nova.

[Lloyd Braun]

Yeah, ummm... no. Nova has been in plenty of close BE games, certainly many that were more competitive than the rotten eggs we’ve laid against them. We have not put up even token resistance against them, except once. Wright tried harder against X? Really??? Jeez, I wish it had occurred to Mack to try harder against Nova.

I think are might be twisting my words out of context. Regardless Villanova is on another level in this league and maybe you have your Xavier blinders on ....I don’t know. Of course Nova will have close games and I wish X had put up a better fight in games pst. I partially believe that to be roster construction and a bad matchup against them in particular. Also they have better recruits. They get 5 star guys and that makes a difference.

Regardless of why, they are in a level by themselves in the conference.

Since 2013 (new BE):
1. Nova 92-15 (.860) MOV (margin of victory): 11.7
2. Xavier 67-40 (.626) MOV: 2.2
3. Providence 59-46 (.562) MOV 0.1
4. Creighton 53-52 (.505) MOV 2.1
5. Butler 51-51 (.500) MOV 1.7
6. Seton Hall 53-53 (.500) MOV -0.6
7. Marquette 47-56 (.456) MOV -2.1
8. Georgetown 41-62 (.398) MOV -1.3
9. St. John’s 37-66 (.359) MOV -4.9
10. DePaul 21-80 (.218) MOV -9.6

[bleedXblue]

Getting boat raced 9 times by Nova with the talent we had is a coach with a lousy game plan. Especially when during that same time frame, Nova was beaten 3 times by Butler. Butler for gods sake. Butler ? really, and we keep getting crushed. That's a crap game plan on our part. And Mack was the coach.

I concur......until Steele gets boat raced.....which I hope is never by the way

[Xuperman]

L
I think are might be twisting my words out of context. Regardless Villanova is on another level in this league and maybe you have your Xavier blinders on ....I don’t know. Of course Nova will have close games and I wish X had put up a better fight in games pst. I partially believe that to be roster construction and a bad matchup against them in particular. Also they have better recruits. They get 5 star guys and that makes a difference.

Regardless of why, they are in a level by themselves in the conference.

Since 2013 (new BE):
1. Nova 92-15 (.860) MOV (margin of victory): 11.7
2. Xavier 67-40 (.626) MOV: 2.2
3. Providence 59-46 (.562) MOV 0.1
4. Creighton 53-52 (.505) MOV 2.1
5. Butler 51-51 (.500) MOV 1.7
6. Seton Hall 53-53 (.500) MOV -0.6
7. Marquette 47-56 (.456) MOV -2.1
8. Georgetown 41-62 (.398) MOV -1.3
9. St. John’s 37-66 (.359) MOV -4.9
10. DePaul 21-80 (.218) MOV -9.6

Great post Lloyd,
You win the Water Pick!
This puts everything in perspective.

[Snipe]

Since 2013 (new BE):
1. Nova 92-15 (.860) MOV (margin of victory): 11.7
2. Xavier 67-40 (.626) MOV: 2.2
3. Providence 59-46 (.562) MOV 0.1
4. Creighton 53-52 (.505) MOV 2.1
5. Butler 51-51 (.500) MOV 1.7
6. Seton Hall 53-53 (.500) MOV -0.6
7. Marquette 47-56 (.456) MOV -2.1
8. Georgetown 41-62 (.398) MOV -1.3
9. St. John’s 37-66 (.359) MOV -4.9
10. DePaul 21-80 (.218) MOV -9.6

Great stats. The drop off after Xavier is huge, but it isn't as big as the gulf between Nova and Xavier.

Nova is in a class by themselves. In a way so is Xavier, it is just a class that isn't in the same class as Nova. After us it is just a bunch of .500 or worse NPCs. Marquette is such a poser.

[IM4X]

It sucks to suck... at the end of a game and squander several opportunities to win the game by making stupid decision after stupid decision.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

It sucks to suck... at the end of a game and squander several opportunities to win the game by making stupid decision after stupid decision.

You don't like a spinning out of control turnover, an indecisive walk in the lane, and a 360 nineteen foot jump shot, all in the last 20 seconds with a chance to take the lead? Man...you're awfully hard to please.

[IM4X]

You don't like a spinning out of control turnover, an indecisive walk in the lane, and a 360 nineteen foot jump shot, all in the last 20 seconds with a chance to take the lead? Man...you're awfully hard to please.

I know, right.

I did not listen to Steele’s post press conference, but I’d imagine it included his canned “I’m proud of how our team didn’t give up at the end.” I Sure hope he took a little blame himself for not communicating to the team to slow it down and work it around for a better shot those last few times.

The fact that this team had the ability to claw it’s way back into a winnable game after being down by 10 says to me that this team has the ability to play with intelligence and incredible tenacity. The consecutive poor decisions at the end (and during spurts throughout the game) shows this coaching staff still is not walking them through (or at least not getting through to them about) what specifically they should be doing in that situation.

[AviatorX]

I know, right.

I did not listen to Steele’s post press conference, but I’d imagine it included his canned “I’m proud of how our team didn’t give up at the end.” I Sure hope he took a little blame himself for not communicating to the team to slow it down and work it around for a better shot those last few times.

The fact that this team had the ability to claw it’s way back into a winnable game after being down by 10 says to me that this team has the ability to play with intelligence and incredible tenacity. The conservative poor decisions at the end (and during spurts throughout the game) shows this coaching staff still is not walking them through (or at least not getting through to them about) what specifically they should be doing in that situation.

The press conference was nothing like that, but at least you admitted you didn't listen.

[Blue Blooded-05]

I’d like to inject some irrational optimism into this thread...

This Providence loss dropped us to 11-9 overall. If that record looks familiar, we were 11-9 in 03/04 before going 15-2 down the stretch and getting to our first Elite 8. I know Chalmers isn’t walking through the door, but remember Chalmers wasn’t Chalmers until that team dropped to 11-9.

On a side note, was that REALLY 15 years ago? Damn...

[IM4X]

I’d like to inject some irrational optimism into this thread...

This Providence loss dropped us to 11-9 overall. If that record looks familiar, we were 11-9 in 03/04 before going 15-2 down the stretch and getting to our first Elite 8. I know Chalmers isn’t walking through the door, but remember Chalmers wasn’t Chalmers until that team dropped to 11-9.


Chalmers= Scruggs/Q
Sato = Marshall

In that case I’m looking forward to our guys beating the best team in the conference by 20 in the quarterfinalls of the tournament this year, before going on to win the tournament... and then reaching another elite eight.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=240712603

[XUBison]

Chalmers= Scruggs/Q
Sato = Marshall

In that case I’m looking forward to our guys beating the best team in the conference by 20 in the quarterfinalls of the tournament this year, before going on to win the tournament... and then reaching another elite eight.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=240712603


So, does G’town = G. Washington, Nova = LaSalle, St. John’s = Fordham, PC = UMass, Hall = Bonnies, etc.? Cuz then we might be cooking with gas.

[GoMuskies]

DePaul = Duquesne....the only team Xavier managed to lose to (at home no less) during that stretch.

[XUBison]

DePaul = Duquesne....the only team Xavier managed to lose to (at home no less) during that stretch.


Yep... I think we lost to Duquesne twice that year, once before the streak, and once during. Seem to remember one of the ESPN talking heads lamenting that X had to be the only team to ever get swept by Duquesne and still make the tournament.

[D-West & PO-Z]

DePaul = Duquesne....the only team Xavier managed to lose to (at home no less) during that stretch.

Ugh I was a senior at St. X at that game with our "little brothers" program. Think I was deemed to not be a good influence on him after my frustrations showing during that game. That was brutal.

[xu koop scoop]

I’d like to inject some irrational optimism into this thread...

This Providence loss dropped us to 11-9 overall. If that record looks familiar, we were 11-9 in 03/04 before going 15-2 down the stretch and getting to our first Elite 8. I know Chalmers isn’t walking through the door, but remember Chalmers wasn’t Chalmers until that team dropped to 11-9.

On a side note, was that REALLY 15 years ago? Damn...

That team 03-04 team sucked. 11-9 going nowhere. Then Anthony Myles (Hankins) became a relentless force. We did get swept by Duquesne. Finished 8th in A10. Had to win 4 A10 Tourney games to get bid. Beat the Bonnies in A10 Tourney then totally whipped undefeated #1 St Joes in Dayton on a Thurs noon game. Wife & I took day off work to see that. Won A10 Tourney. Got to Elite 8. Barely lost to Duke. That team sucked

[GoMuskies]

[QUOTE=xu koop scoop;638451]Finished 8th in A10. /QUOTE]

I used to think that, too. However, I had forgotten that the A-10 was split into divisions (East and West) in those days. So we came in 4th in the West (actually a tie with Richmond for 3rd). Overall, we tied for the 5th best record in the A-10 (6th when you consider we lose the tiebreak to Richmond). Just a bit of useless trivia for your Thursday.


1 Saint Joseph's 16 0 1.000 30 2 .938 77.4 62.3 20.0 5.0 NCAA Tournament; Reg. Season Champion
2 Temple 9 7 .563 15 14 .517 65.1 64.7 5.6 5.2
3 Rhode Island 7 9 .438 20 14 .588 68.9 64.5 7.2 2.8
4 Massachusetts 4 12 .250 10 19 .345 68.1 73.0 -2.3 2.6
5 St. Bonaventure 3 13 .188 7 21 .250 68.0 79.3 -7.1 4.2
5 Fordham 3 13 .188 6 22 .214 62.0 74.1 -8.2 3.9


Rk West W L W-L% W L W-L% Own Opp SRS SOS Notes
1 Dayton 12 4 .750 24 9 .727 68.0 64.5 7.1 3.6 NCAA Tournament; Reg. Season Champion
2 George Washington 11 5 .688 18 12 .600 75.0 70.1 9.1 4.1
3 Xavier 10 6 .625 26 11 .703 71.2 63.2 13.8 5.8 NCAA Tournament; Conf. Tournament Champion
3 Richmond 10 6 .625 20 13 .606 64.5 59.5 10.1 5.1 NCAA Tournament
5 Duquesne 6 10 .375 12 17 .414 70.3 71.4 1.2 2.2
6 La Salle 5 11 .313 10 20 .333 65.1 69.9 -1.9 2.9

[fellahmuskie]

I just realized we're still tied for 3rd place in the conference. Or, if you like, a half game out of last place...

[GoMuskies]

Fuck this loser mentality. I just realized we're still tied for 3rd place in the conference. Or, if you like, a half game out of last place...

2 good teams and 8 relatively equally shitty ones.

[fellahmuskie]

2 good teams and 8 relatively equally shitty ones.

It's really amazing St John's is stuck in the pack with everyone else. I'm depressed about Xavier. I can't imagine how SJU fans feel.

[xu koop scoop]

Other similarities to that sucky 03-04 team that was 11-9 & went to Elite 8. That was our 1st season after David West (fill in Tre & JP). Chalmers, Sato & Myles were our Seniors (fill in 3 grad transfers). Cage & Doellmam were Frosh that developed as season wore on (fill in Kennedy & James) Derrick Finn was an improving Sophmore (fill in Harden). Well, I just don't see this team matching that Sucky Elite 8 Team.

[GoMuskies]

You've fired me back up for this season, though. Yes, we shat the bed against Seton Hall and Providence. On the other hand, we could have (probably should have) lost to all of DePaul, Georgetown and Butler. So we're about where we deserve to be. But there's no reason we can't be the best of the "other 8". None of those teams are any damned good, and all of them have 4 losses, just like us. And we've already played at Villanova and Marquette, so we've got our only two unwinnable games out of the way.

Let's do this! Let's suck less than the other seven teams not named Villanova or Marquette!

[xu82]

You've fired me back up for this season, though. Yes, we shat the bed against Seton Hall and Providence. On the other hand, we could have (probably should have) lost to all of DePaul, Georgetown and Butler. So we're about where we deserve to be. But there's no reason we can't be the best of the "other 8". None of those teams are any damned good, and all of them have 4 losses, just like us. And we've already played at Villanova and Marquette, so we've got our only two unwinnable games out of the way.

Let's do this! Let's suck less than the other seven teams not named Villanova or Marquette!

THIS is inspiring! I can just hear Travis making that speech in the locker room! YAY TEAM! :-)

[IM4X]

I am really enjoying how this thread went from the harsh “It sucks to suck” theme to a much warmer and fuzzier “We kind of suck like that one other X team from over a decade ago that sucked but quickly got much better and made the tournament and then reached the elite 8... so there still is that very, very small sliver of a possibility of having a great season after all... if every player can just play and every coach can just coach about 95% better than we ever imagined was humanly possible.”

[Xavier]

Thats a bad job of summing up the new theme.

[Xuperman]

Yeah, we kinda suck and it’s ok to have some fun with it. Keep in mind that expectations for this season were lukewarm to begin with. We had our “core 4” returning but zero returning seniors. I can’t recall that ever being the case. Fortunately that same “core 4” should be back again coupled with much better freshman talent. The future is bright as usual here at X.

Now compare that to the average Butler fan right now. Ledge space on their board is going for HIGH$$$. Not only are they in meltdown for this season but for the foreseeable future. BUT still, in all that misery, they always have the energy to insult our program. So, when your down and out, go over to their board for some perspective and a good laugh.

[UCGRAD4X]

So, Butler fans are distraught...but at least their not us.

And we're lamenting some ugly losses.....but at least we're not Butler.

That about sums up the majority of the Big East this year.

[XUBison]

Yeah, we kinda suck and it’s ok to have some fun with it. Keep in mind that expectations for this season were lukewarm to begin with. We had our “core 4” returning but zero returning seniors. I can’t recall that ever being the case. Fortunately that same “core 4” should be back again coupled with much better freshman talent. The future is bright as usual here at X.

Now compare that to the average Butler fan right now. Ledge space on their board is going for HIGH$$$. Not only are they in meltdown for this season but for the foreseeable future. BUT still, in all that misery, they always have the energy to insult our program. So, when your down and out, go over to their board for some perspective and a good laugh.


Hope all four are back next year. Not that I have insight into anything, because I definitely don’t. But the fact that Kaiser isn’t on this team tells me not to take anything for granted in that regard.

As for Butler... they are like the red-headed step-hoosiers of college bball. It is just the dorkiest program.

[Xuperman]

So, Butler fans are distraught...but at least their not us.

And we're lamenting some ugly losses.....but at least we're not Butler.

That about sums up the majority of the Big East this year.

Yes, but some of the crappy 8 are bound to start piling up some wins, right? Or is it possible for 8 teams to finish tied for last. Let’s see...8 teams finish 7-11. That’s 144 games. VU and MU each go 15-3 for another 36...yep it’s possible. For some reason I like this. Make some heads explode seeding the BET.

[fellahmuskie]

Yes, but some of the crappy 8 are bound to start piling up some wins, right? Or is it possible for 8 teams to finish tied for last. Let’s see...8 teams finish 7-11. That’s 144 games. VU and MU each go 15-3 for another 36...yep it’s possible. For some reason I like this. Make some heads explode seeding the BET.

Except us at 9-9 and Butler 5-13. Is that too much to ask?

[GoMuskies]

I still say there's no reason we can't win the crappy 8 this year. We should cut the nets on senior day and raise a banner if we do it, too.

[Xuperman]

I still say there's no reason we can't win the crappy 8 this year. We should cut the nets on senior day and raise a banner if we do it, too.

And no reason we can’t get through this with a sense of humor. This is very funny!!

[HenryMuto]

From #1 seed to NIT in 1 year. That is depressing. I hate that Mack left. I hate this year for X.

[Xville]

Hope all four are back next year. Not that I have insight into anything, because I definitely don’t. But the fact that Kaiser isn’t on this team tells me not to take anything for granted in that regard.

As for Butler... they are like the red-headed step-hoosiers of college bball. It is just the dorkiest program.

Agree with this, we can't count on anyone staying until we actually see them on the court the following year. Money even international money at the higher levels is just too good and I dont blame anyone for ever leaving early anymore. It just makes too much sense...go get the money when you can as early as you can.

[GoMuskies]

With a win yesterday, Xavier could have been alone in first in the Crappy Eight. Instead, we've fallen into a four way tie for last, a half half game out of first. It's going to be an interesting race all year long in the Crappy Eight.

Crappy Eight

Georgetown 3 4 .429 13 7 .650 W1 9 4 3 2 141
Providence 3 4 .429 13 7 .650 W2 9 3 3 2 69
Seton Hall 3 4 .429 12 7 .632 L3 6 3 2 4 43
Creighton 3 4 .429 12 8 .600 W2 7 4 2 4 41
St. John's 3 5 .375 15 5 .750 L2 10 2 2 3 33
DePaul 3 5 .375 11 8 .579 L2 9 3 2 5 152
Butler 3 5 .375 12 9 .571 L2 9 2 1 5 56
Xavier 3 5 .375 11 10 .524 L3 9 4 1 4 99

[GIMMFD]

With a win yesterday, Xavier could have been alone in first in the Crappy Eight. Instead, we've fallen into a four way tie for last, a half half game out of first. It's going to be an interesting race all year long in the Crappy Eight.

Crappy Eight

Georgetown 3 4 .429 13 7 .650 W1 9 4 3 2 141
Providence 3 4 .429 13 7 .650 W2 9 3 3 2 69
Seton Hall 3 4 .429 12 7 .632 L3 6 3 2 4 43
Creighton 3 4 .429 12 8 .600 W2 7 4 2 4 41
St. John's 3 5 .375 15 5 .750 L2 10 2 2 3 33
DePaul 3 5 .375 11 8 .579 L2 9 3 2 5 152
Butler 3 5 .375 12 9 .571 L2 9 2 1 5 56
Xavier 3 5 .375 11 10 .524 L3 9 4 1 4 99


I have never looked at something so depressing in my life lol. Especially knowing we could quite easily be 5-3 and leading the Crappy Eight. Can we get that on a shirt if we win the Crappy Eight?? I'd totally buy one.

[xu82]

I still say there's no reason we can't win the crappy 8 this year. We should cut the nets on senior day and raise a banner if we do it, too.

That’s the spirit!!!

And a funny way to look at it.

[fellahmuskie]

Unconventional strategy of losing three in a row send to be working. Only half a game out of 3rd and tied with SJU and Seton Hall.

[GoMuskies]

Tricky week for the Crappy Eight. To keep the pattern alive, we need two big upsets this week of the Elite Two: Butler over Marquette and DePaul over Villanova. Both home games for members of the Crappy Eight.

Othwerwise, Seton Hall over Providence, St. John's over Creighton, and Xavier over Georgetown, and we're right on track.

[bobbiemcgee]

Wonder if we can beat Marquette in esports:

https://sports.yahoo.com/marquette-add-esports-official-varsity-sport-next-year-003122403.html

[94GRAD]

Hi Everyone:
It is really cold in Cincy, just like Xavier's Shooting percentage from farther than 6 feet out. Hope it warms up soon, we may still have a chance at an NIT Bid.

Let's see how fast we can bury this in red. I'll start

[GoMuskies]

Not worth the effort. Really only saying what the rest of us are saying anyway. Let the UC fan have their one day in the sun.

[GoMuskies]

Xavier is playing for a share of first Thursday night. Georgetown is playing for sole possession of first place.

[Xuperman]

Tricky week for the Crappy Eight. To keep the pattern alive, we need two big upsets this week of the Elite Two: Butler over Marquette and DePaul over Villanova. Both home games for members of the Crappy Eight.

Othwerwise, Seton Hall over Providence, St. John's over Creighton, and Xavier over Georgetown, and we're right on track.

The competition is fierce in the Crappy 8....just a slugfest night in and night out. Tonite's bloodbath is for mid season bragging rights. Let’s leave it all on the floor and take our rightful place at the top.....GO X!!

[paulxu]

In 2009, UNC won the whole enchilada.

In 2010, they went 5-11 in conference and didn't make the dance.

We'll be fine.

[xu koop scoop]

In 2009, UNC won the whole enchilada.

In 2010, they went 5-11 in conference and didn't make the dance.

We'll be fine.

We may or may not be fine. N Car has won't several Enchiladas, Oodles of FInal 4s & Bundles of Elite 8s. We have 3 Elite 8s
I love your confidence.

[X Factor]

After tonight, Xavier's defensive efficiency is 172nd in the nation. How is that even possible with multiple 4 star recruits on this team?

We're staring last place right between the eyes.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

If we lose the rest of our games, do we get to draft James Wiseman?

[OTRMUSKIE]

I keep wanting to lose Bc I keep thinking they will get rewarded but it doesn’t work that way. This team is in every game. If we had depth we would win these close games. X will be fine in two years just have to ride this out till then. Then pray Steele stays Bc if he starts winning big he could be next in-line for Indiana. Indiana is awful

[Xavier]

X will be fine in two years just have to ride this out till then. Then pray Steele stays Bc if he starts winning big he could be next in-line for Indiana. Indiana is awful

I agree with the bold (but pray that Scruggs stays for his sr. season). Praying that Steele (11-11) doesn't bolt to Indiana...Jesus. I assume and hope that one day we are worried about what school wants Steele but that won't happen for awhile.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Then pray Steele stays Bc if he starts winning big he could be next in-line for Indiana. Indiana is awful

Yeah, they are so awful their body of work is 40 spots ahead of us in the NET Rankings.

Archie Miller > Travis Steele by a wider margin than I can quantify.

Yes, our talent will be better next year, that has been said a lot on here, but is anyone convinced they'll be coached up by this staff of recruiters? I'm not. I know the new guys will look at Trav differently, he'll be the head coach, not the former assistant who used to have a different relationship with the guys, but I've not seen a lot of in-game coaching that makes me believe in this group.

This roster, by the way, is plenty good enough to be much better than 11-11, I'm not letting that point go.

[Mrs. Garrett]

This team doesn't suck. They are undisciplined which falls on the coach. They give games away with turnovers and poor shot selection.

[paulxu]

Archie Miller > Travis Steele by a wider margin than I can quantify.

How could anyone possibly know that. Miller took 3 years to get to the dance. Steele has 22 games under his belt.
Steele may fall flat and there's a lot not to like about our performance...but it's way too early to make a comparison.

[beatuc]

Yeah, they are so awful their body of work is 40 spots ahead of us in the NET Rankings.

Archie Miller > Travis Steele by a wider margin than I can quantify.

Yes, our talent will be better next year, that has been said a lot on here, but is anyone convinced they'll be coached up by this staff of recruiters? I'm not. I know the new guys will look at Trav differently, he'll be the head coach, not the former assistant who used to have a different relationship with the guys, but I've not seen a lot of in-game coaching that makes me believe in this group.

This roster, by the way, is plenty good enough to be much better than 11-11, I'm not letting that point go.

This is exactly how I feel, great group of recruiters and not much development and in-game coaching going on.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

How could anyone possibly know that. Miller took 3 years to get to the dance. Steele has 22 games under his belt.
Steele may fall flat and there's a lot not to like about our performance...but it's way too early to make a comparison.

He brought up how bad IU was and that Travis would be a target...when I was done laughing, I had to respond.

Keep in mind, Travis couldn't get the WKU job, the Bradley job, or the NKU job...and while it is early, there has to be a lot to be concerned about. I know this, if I had to put something at risk that mattered to me on those two guys looking 5 or 10 years into the future, I'd put all of it on Archie and love my chances.

[AviatorX]

This is exactly how I feel, great group of recruiters and not much development and in-game coaching going on.

Serious question - can someone highlight some examples of strong in game development and coaching Mack’s early staff put together? I think every fan base calls for the “experienced bench coach assistant” at some point early in a new HC’s tenure.

Frankly I’m not sure it’s possible to make a direct comparison when you consider the talent and competition gap between Mack’s first team and Steele’s.

[GoMuskies]

Mack benched Jordan Crawford at some point (UC game) and let him know who was boss. A move that was completely necessary at that point of his tenure and certainly spurred the team forward.

Of course, it could have completely blown up in Mack's face and ruined the season.

[AviatorX]

Mack benched Jordan Crawford at some point (UC game) and let him know who was boss. A move that was completely necessary at that point of his tenure and certainly spurred the team forward.

Of course, it could have completely blown up in Mack's face and ruined the season.

Good point, although I’d note Crawford still ended up playing 38 minutes (game went to 2OT) and got up 16 shots that game.

Mack also tweaked the offense to have Crawford running the baseline to catch the ball on the wing (as opposed to initiating with the beloved weave). But again, a lot easier to look smart when you have arguably the best bucket getter in school history and Duquesne on the schedule twice.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Serious question - can someone highlight some examples of strong in game development and coaching Mack’s early staff put together? I think every fan base calls for the “experienced bench coach assistant” at some point early in a new HC’s tenure.

Frankly I’m not sure it’s possible to make a direct comparison when you consider the talent and competition gap between Mack’s first team and Steele’s.

The example I would give you is how he managed a selfish and borderline awful Jordan Crawford in Orlando at the early season tournament. Jordan went 4 for 20 (felt worse) in the opening loss to Marquette, if you recall. The next game, against Creighton, he was 8 of 12 and played more under control. Against Baylor, he was forcing it frequently and ended up 6 of 19. Next game out, after Chris talked about "selfish play" in the post-game Baylor presser, Jordan had a very efficient game against Kent State, and the team played much better from that point forward.

[AviatorX]

The example I would give you is how he managed a selfish and borderline awful Jordan Crawford in Orlando at the early season tournament. Jordan went 4 for 20 (felt worse) in the opening loss to Marquette, if you recall. The next game, against Creighton, he was 8 of 12 and played more under control. Against Baylor, he was forcing it frequently and ended up 6 of 19. Next game out, after Chris talked about "selfish play" in the post-game Baylor presser, Jordan had a very efficient game against Kent State, and the team played much better from that point forward.

I mean, I think Mack is an awesome coach who will be winning games for a long time, but how much of this is just “Jordan Crawford is a generational scorer.” In any event, I’m more curious about people’s takes on the assistants, which seemed to be the direction this thread was going.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

I mean, I think Mack is an awesome coach who will be winning games for a long time, but how much of this is just “Jordan Crawford is a generational scorer.”

The point was Jordan was AWFUL that first game, was called out and coached, was way better the next game (in terms of flow of offense and shot selection), when he tried to do too much in the 2nd half of the Baylor game, Chris called it out, coached it, and when they got home Jordan was better.

Yes, however, he for sure was a "generational scorer", but that wasn't my point. Chris didn't let him do whatever he wanted, that was my bigger point.

[AviatorX]

The point was Jordan was AWFUL that first game, was called out and coached, was way better the next game (in terms of flow of offense and shot selection), when he tried to do too much in the 2nd half of the Baylor game, Chris called it out, coached it, and when they got home Jordan was better.

Yes, however, he for sure was a "generational scorer", but that wasn't my point. Chris didn't let him do whatever he wanted, that was my bigger point.

And then over the next few weeks he backslid enough to be benched again in UC game. I understand your point, I just think it’s an oversimplification. Crawford was amazing but I don’t exactly think he was really reigned in by Mack.

[GoMuskies]

Jordan had a lot of awful moments. He could have been a complete cancer, but I think Mack did a pretty great job of managing that team and personality.

Crawford's three game NCAA Tournament run may be the best three game run in school history.

[fellahmuskie]

Need Georgetown to lose to Nova and X to beat Creighton tomorrow and we're back within a half game of 3rd with home games is DePaul and Creighton coming up.

I say we need three road wins in conference - Creighton and Butler are most likely - to complete for a Crappy 8 title.

[UCGRAD4X]

Need Georgetown to lose to Nova and X to beat Creighton tomorrow and we're back within a half game of 3rd with home games is DePaul and Creighton coming up.

I say we need three road wins in conference - Creighton and Butler are most likely - to complete for a Crappy 8 title.

The notion that we have to root for a team to LOSE to Villanova, on its face, indicates a sad state of affairs.

The justification that it might get us within a half game of 3rd place...

Is it to early to start drinking....again?

[GoMuskies]

Third place is first place. Try to get in an Orwellian mindset.

[bobbiemcgee]

We could use a couple of Edelman's on this team. Undrafted and headed to the HOF.

[D-West & PO-Z]

We could use a couple of Edelman's on this team. Undrafted and headed to the HOF.

I think the notion he is close to the HOF is crazy.

He has 30 career TD's in 9 seasons.

AJ Green has 63 in 8.

Odell Beckham has 44 in 5 seasons.

Dwayne Bowe career stats:
9 years
537 catches
7208 rec yards
44 TD catches

Edelman
9 years
499 catches
5390 yards
30 TDs

[GoMuskies]

We could use a couple of Edelman's on this team. Undrafted and headed to the HOF.

Can he shoot?

[bobbiemcgee]

I think the notion he is close to the HOF is crazy.

He has 30 career TD's in 9 seasons.

AJ Green has 63 in 8.

Odell Beckham has 44 in 5 seasons.

Dwayne Bowe career stats:
9 years
537 catches
7208 rec yards
44 TD catches

Edelman
9 years
499 catches
5390 yards
30 TDs

Edelman is second in postseason catches to Jerry Rice. How are your guys doing.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Edelman is second in postseason catches to Jerry Rice. How are your guys doing.

Well yeah, he plays with Tom Brady and is coached by Belichick so he gets to the post season a lot, so he gets a lot of opportunities. And he is their only reliable receiver. Don't get me wrong he's good, he had a great game yesterday, he shows up big in big games. But he isn't even close to a HOF. They made TO wait forever and he has the third most TD catches in NFL history and was also big in big games. He played the SB with a broken leg.

Oh and not to mention Edelman is a known cheater. He was suspended 4 games this year, but that is convenient to forget.

[UCGRAD4X]

TO was a well known arrogant a-hole and was only out for TO. Not a team player at all and I think voters look for more than stats - and yes, I think held it against him that he was also a pretty big a-hole to all of them as well.

Edelman is going to need to do a lot more, I agree.

He plays for the Patriots, so, yeah, he's a cheater almost by definition. :encore:

[94GRAD]

TO was a well known arrogant a-hole and was only out for TO. Not a team player at all and I think voters look for more than stats - and yes, I think held it against him that he was also a pretty big a-hole to all of them as well.

Edelman is going to need to do a lot more, I agree.

He plays for the Patriots, so, yeah, he's a cheater almost by definition. :encore:

He's a cheater because he served a 4 game suspension to begin the season for a positive PED test!

[Xavier]

It’s an interesting case. He has some of the most important catches in Super Bowl history and is one of the key players to the best dynasty in nfl. Depends how HOF weighs playoff success....if I have to bet he will end up there. Sometimes HOF is more than numbers- need to see how the player impacts overall game IMO.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It’s an interesting case. He has some of the most important catches in Super Bowl history and is one of the key players to the best dynasty in nfl. Depends how HOF weighs playoff success....if I have to bet he will end up there. Sometimes HOF is more than numbers- need to see how the player impacts overall game IMO.

Playoff success is valuable and does get weighted I think heavily but it has to be backed up by regular season success.

Edelman has never been and All Pro or even a Pro Bowler.

He is 148th all time in receptions and 248th in yards.

He is playing with the best QB of all time and for the best coach of all time. He has big playoff numbers but has had tons of opportunities there because of who he plays for.

Hall of famers are supposed to be able to do amazing things in any system with any QB. You telling me Edelman would be a HOF if he was playing with Dalton for the Bengals?

He has never been one of the top 5 players at WR in any year.

[Xavier]

Playoff success is valuable and does get weighted I think heavily but it has to be backed up by regular season

He is playing with the best QB of all time and for the best coach of all time. He has big playoff numbers but has had tons of opportunities there because of who he plays for.



Fair points but over the course of this dynasty how many other wr have had the success he has had in this system? I think it’s a lazy argument to say he wouldn’t be as good in another system though. The best qb and coach of all time cater their passing attack through you but bc other teams aren’t smart enough to use you that way you should be punished?

I can understand the regular season argument, make enough big plays and have enough big games when it matters most and it will outweigh regular season. Tough he was hurt for last years run (where they did not win) but if he replicates this years playoff performance again I think he will be in for sure.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Fair points but over the course of this dynasty how many other wr have had the success he has had in this system? I think it’s a lazy argument to say he wouldn’t be as good in another system though. The best qb and coach of all time cater their passing attack through you but bc other teams aren’t smart enough to use you that way you should be punished?

I can understand the regular season argument, make enough big plays and have enough big games when it matters most and it will outweigh regular season. Tough he was hurt for last years run (where they did not win) but if he replicates this years playoff performance again I think he will be in for sure.

Wes Welker
Deion Branch (also a SB MVP)
Troy Brown
Danny Amendola

Obviously Moss who was a HOF before coming there. And Gronk as a TE is Bradys best reciever ever.

I actually think the success those other receivers have had with Brady really hurts Edelman's argument. Especially Welker, Brown and Branch.

[Xavier]

Obviously Moss who was a HOF before coming there. And Gronk as a TE is Bradys best reciever ever

Am I reading this wrong, you think Gronk is a better receiver than Moss?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Am I reading this wrong, you think Gronk is a better receiver than Moss?

No, I see how thats confusing. I meant Gronk is his best long term receiver. Moss is obviously a way better receiver than Gronk but he was only with Brady for 3 years.

If you wanna look at a guy who's stats blow Edleman's out the water and was also a SB MVP but isnt sniffing the hall of fame look at Hines Ward.

1,000 catches, over 12,000 yards, and 85 TDs.

[SemajParlor]

No, I see how thats confusing. I meant Gronk is his best long term receiver. Moss is obviously a way better receiver than Gronk but he was only with Brady for 3 years.

If you wanna look at a guy who's stats blow Edleman's out the water and was also a SB MVP but isnt sniffing the hall of fame look at Hines Ward.

1,000 catches, over 12,000 yards, and 85 TDs.

Edelman is not a Hall of Famer and to be honest really shouldn't be that close.

[xukeith]

Remember how Quin Snyder got ran out of Missouri?
He then had some very rough years then BOOM! he is the head coach of the Utah Jazz.

[bobbiemcgee]

Just to clarify, I said Edelman was "headed to the HOF", not that he was ever going to be voted in. Nobody knows. I think he makes it if he keeps up this level of play. Maybe all of the above (mostly retired) guys will get in at some point. Edelman has 3-5 more productive years so we'll see. You do know he is a slot receiver and not a Wideout? My point was he is a gritty guy who obviously gives his all on the field every time out. PED's? Who knows how many HOF guys took ped's before they started testing. Hell, Ray Lewis killed a guy and got in.

[nuts4xu]

This thread is off the rails. Julian Edelman? How does his inclusion or non-inclusion in the HOF have anything to do with the pile of suck this season has become?

Focus people, FOCUS!!

[XUBison]

I bet Q would have been a good football player. Maybe he’ll be the next Jimmy Graham.

Jeez, if this thread drift doesn’t tell you how much we suck...

[GoMuskies]

With Georgetown and St. John's going down today, we're back to the entire Crappy Eight being below .500 again. Amazingly, Xavier once again has a shot to get within a game of first in the Crappy Eight with a home win over DePaul tonight. We're still in this thing as hard as it is to believe.

Two bids for the Big East this year unless something changes in a hurry.

[D-West & PO-Z]

With Georgetown and St. John's going down today, we're back to the entire Crappy Eight being below .500 again. Amazingly, Xavier once again has a shot to get within a game of first in the Crappy Eight with a home win over DePaul tonight. We're still in this thing as hard as it is to believe.

Two bids for the Big East this year unless something changes in a hurry.

St. John's 2 wins over Marquette will look very good compared to other bubble teams come March probably but they really need to finish .500 or better in conference. Can't believe how inconsistent they are, its crazy.

Well, Mullin is there coach, so yes I can.

[X Factor]

Will we have a single quality win this year?

I see other "bad" teams around the country pulling off upsets over ranked teams, but not X.

[GIMMFD]

St. John's 2 wins over Marquette will look very good compared to other bubble teams come March probably but they really need to finish .500 or better in conference. Can't believe how inconsistent they are, its crazy.

Well, Mullin is there coach, so yes I can.

I mean they look more like a street ball team than anything else, Shamorie Ponds is really fun to watch, but it's almost like they have no resemblance of any discipline. Granted, I can't say much considering we couldn't guard a paraplegic person at this rate and I'd kill for Johnsies record.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Will we have a single quality win this year?

I see other "bad" teams around the country pulling off upsets over ranked teams, but not X.

I mean at this point quality wins or not, does it really matter except for psyche? We arent getting in tourney unless we win it all at MSG.

[Muskie]

I mean at this point quality wins or not, does it really matter except for psyche? We arent getting in tourney unless we win it all at MSG.

That’s my plan. It all starts tonight.


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[bjf123]

Assuming we lose out, which is a very real possibility, we’ll lose 20 games. The last time an X team lost 20 games was ‘81-‘82. That also happens to be when Travis Steele was born. I was hoping he was a year younger because I really wanted to be able to say the last time a team was this bad, the current coach hadn’t been born yet.


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[KabeX]

I mean at this point quality wins or not, does it really matter except for psyche? We arent getting in tourney unless we win it all at MSG.

At this point we are getting in no tourney. We aren't even close to the NIT bubble. Now, all that said - this year's done. I am concerned but yet still hopeful for next season (and actually in 2 years). If we're not back by then ...

[X Factor]

KenPom ranking after the DePaul Debacle

Overall #115

Defense #200

[GoMuskies]

The good news is that as the 10th best team in the Big East we’ll be the second team eliminated in NYC and not the first. So we’ve got that going for us. Which is nice.

[bjf123]

Saw something on Facebook today from Shannon Russell about Malcolm Bernard being in town rehabbing his torn Achilles’ tendon. He apparently has asked Steele if he can talk to the team. Malcolm was part of the team that lost 6 in a row. We’ll see what happens.


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[whopper]

It can't hurt..player to player and as a grad transfer who played one year he can relate. The grad transfers can't be leaders on this time, even Castlin, as the incumbents have way too much incremental experience and they kind of have to toe the line. In fact the time I saw the transfers show leadership was against Mercy Detroit where Jones and Marshall did not play and the led the team to victory. I kind of thought that would solidify their position as they proved they could beat an Horizon team with 2 starters but I guess not. Maybe Mal Bernard can remind them of playing with pride and let chips fall where they may. We forget that we needed to beat Depaul at MSG(we were down at half) then Butler(Tre Buzzer) to even be the LAST team in on Sunday(or at least the last team mentioned). That won't happen this year but what a razor's edge that was. We need them to play hard and with purpose and we can take the results.

[Muskie]

Saw something on Facebook today from Shannon Russell about Malcolm Bernard being in town rehabbing his torn Achilles’ tendon. He apparently has asked Steele if he can talk to the team. Malcolm was part of the team that lost 6 in a row. We’ll see what happens.


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Maybe he should give the same speech he gave his teammates 2 seasons ago...


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[boozehound]

This team doesn't suck. They are undisciplined which falls on the coach. They give games away with turnovers and poor shot selection.

Add poor defense to that, which I also think coaching plays a significant role in.

This is not a good year. Hopefully Steele is the guy, because if he isn't it could be a long road back. What we are living through right now is, IMO, the difference between the Big East and the A10. This is our first coaching change in the Big East, and it is proving to be a tough transition. We don't get to play Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and Duquesne, which means if things start to go wrong, you can lose A LOT of games. This is probably a better team that Miller's initial team that went 17-12 or Skip's first season where we went 13-15, but the results are likely to be worse (depending on how you view them) due to the higher level of competition.

Where it could get really ugly (although I don't think it will) is if Steele is genuinely a bad hire this could end up being a 5-6 year slump. 3 years of Steele followed by 2-3 years for the next guy to rebuild.

[xubrew]

I'm pretty sure Xavier would be the first Big East team, in either its current or any of its previous formats, to finish in first place on year and last place the very next year.

I haven't looked this up, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they were the first team to ever earn a #1 seed one year, and finish in last place in their conference the very next year.

If Xavier doesn't win tonight, then I can't imagine them being favored in any of the remaining games.

I really don't know what to say other than this, and it probably won't help...

You have to realize that if you're reading this, then you probably aren't normal. Diehard fans are not normal. Hence the term "diehard." Unless people have some sort of direct ties to a team, the only thing sports really have an impact on is on their mood. That's it. Livelihoods, day to day lives, jobs, mortgages, the price of bread, etc all remain unaffected. Most normal people (and they are perhaps the smarter ones) would just say screw it, it's not worth the emotional investment to watch a team that doesn't win. Just like getting mad after eating at a restaurant with bad food and bad service, but continuing to go there twice a week anyway is a bad idea, getting mad at a basketball team that loses every game, but continuing to watch every game anyway is a bad idea.

But, we are not normal. We just need to accept that we're not normal and that we will continue to be miserable, or change and become normal. If you do the latter, your days will probably be happier.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Someone brought up previously if there were any 1 seeds to miss the tourney next year. I saw on twitter there have been 10 or 11 (can't remember now which) times that a one seed has missed the tourney the next year.

[Caf]

Someone brought up previously if there were any 1 seeds to miss the tourney next year. I saw on twitter there have been 10 or 11 (can't remember now which) times that a one seed has missed the tourney the next year.

I wonder how many times a coach has left a 1 seed. I bet it's less than 10 or 11.

[Xville]

Someone brought up previously if there were any 1 seeds to miss the tourney next year. I saw on twitter there have been 10 or 11 (can't remember now which) times that a one seed has missed the tourney the next year.

In a lot of ways, this makes sense that it would happen from time to time. If you aren't Duke, Kentucky Kansas etc and you get a 1 seed, it is probably because you have upperclassmen or guys good enough to take a shot at the league. Most of the time, those players leave after the year, and again unless you are Duke, Kentucky etc, you just can't reload that quickly.

[Caf]

Oregon just did it in 2017.

[xubrew]

I wonder how many times a coach has left a 1 seed. I bet it's less than 10 or 11.

I was wondering that too. I can't think of any examples.

[xubrew]

Oregon just did it in 2017.

Oregon was a Final Four team, but they were a #3 seed

[Xavier]

Add poor defense to that, which I also think coaching plays a significant role in.

This is not a good year. Hopefully Steele is the guy, because if he isn't it could be a long road back. What we are living through right now is, IMO, the difference between the Big East and the A10. This is our first coaching change in the Big East, and it is proving to be a tough transition. We don't get to play Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and Duquesne, which means if things start to go wrong, you can lose A LOT of games. This is probably a better team that Miller's initial team that went 17-12 or Skip's first season where we went 13-15, but the results are likely to be worse (depending on how you view them) due to the higher level of competition.

Where it could get really ugly (although I don't think it will) is if Steele is genuinely a bad hire this could end up being a 5-6 year slump. 3 years of Steele followed by 2-3 years for the next guy to rebuild.

Exactly this. It was way easier to learn how to be a head coach in the A-10. Getting a first year head coach with the talent lost from last years team in the Big East was always going to be a difficult task (though, almost nothing changes my minimum expectation with X bball: Make the tournament).

I will say the history of success and being arguably the 2nd/3rd best program (right now) in the Big East has me less worried about the collapse of this program even if Steele isn't the guy. Good coaches and talented players will still see the opportunity Xavier presents. Fail on that hire though...who knows.

[GoMuskies]

I would be more comforted by this if the Big East didn't blow goats this year.

[Caf]

Oregon was a Final Four team, but they were a #3 seed

Ah yeah you're right. 2016 they were the 1. Got the years mixed up.

[Caf]

I was wondering that too. I can't think of any examples.

The closest I can think of is Calipari at Memphis, but they were a 2.

[Xville]

The closest I can think of is Calipari at Memphis, but they were a 2.

So I just looked because I thought it happened to Kentucky and it did. In 11-12 they were actually the number one overall seed and the following year they were in the NIT with Nerlens Noel and co....though I am pretty sure Noel got injured toward the end of the season.

It happened to Indiana...2013 one seed...following year 17 wins.

So..those are about as blue blood as you can get (I know Indiana isn't what they once were but historically they are a blue blood)

Anyways, it happens to the best of "us."

[X-band '01]

I think Duke was a 2 seed in 1994 and reached the national title game, then the following year Duke finished in the cellar of the ACC. That was back when Coach K had back surgery and all the Ls in conference play got handed to Pete Gaudet.

[xubrew]

So I just looked because I thought it happened to Kentucky and it did. In 11-12 they were actually the number one overall seed and the following year they were in the NIT with Nerlens Noel and co....though I am pretty sure Noel got injured toward the end of the season.

It happened to Indiana...2013 one seed...following year 17 wins.

So..those are about as blue blood as you can get (I know Indiana isn't what they once were but historically they are a blue blood)

Anyways, it happens to the best of "us."

What I was looking at is examples of coaches leaving programs the season after they earned a #1 seed. In all those cases the coaches were still there, and although they all missed the tournament, none were last place teams.

Kansas was the national runner up in 2003, which was Roy Williams's last season, but they were a #2 seed.

Memphis was a #3 seed in Calipari's last year. Now, they would have hands down been the #1 ranked team going into the following season had they retained that recruiting class, so I guess that kind of counts, but they still weren't a #1 seeded team that lost their coach. (EDIT: My mistake. They were a #2 seed)

I can't think of a single example where that has happened. So, what we are experiencing right now is kind of a first.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I would be more comforted by this if the Big East didn't blow goats this year.

True but it is still way better than the A10. As bad as DePaul has been they aren't Duquesne, Fordham, Bonaventure. There arent any bottom feeders. And Lunardi has 5 BE teams in the tourney right now. That seems optimistic to me but the bubble is always super weak.

[Xville]

What I was looking at is examples of coaches leaving programs the season after they earned a #1 seed. In all those cases the coaches were still there, and although they all missed the tournament, none were last place teams.

Kansas was the national runner up in 2003, which was Roy Williams's last season, but they were a #2 seed.

Memphis was a #3 seed in Calipari's last year. Now, they would have hands down been the #1 ranked team going into the following season had they retained that recruiting class, so I guess that kind of counts, but they still weren't a #1 seeded team that lost their coach.

I can't think of a single example where that has happened. So, what we are experiencing right now is kind of a first.

Gotcha. Well, someone had to be the first in this department....might as well be X. We can also be the first team to have it happen and then make the final four the following year or two with the new coach. Stranger things have happened :)

[Caf]

I can't think of a single example where that has happened. So, what we are experiencing right now is kind of a first.

Can me make sure every Xavier fan sees this sentence?

[xubrew]

Gotcha. Well, someone had to be the first in this department....might as well be X. We can also be the first team to have it happen and then make the final four the following year or two with the new coach. Stranger things have happened :)

Hey, the last time we finished in 10th place, we won the conference tournament!!

[GoMuskies]

Rick Pitino. Kentucky 1997. Won the national championship the following year with Tubby Smith as HC.

[xubrew]

Rick Pitino. Kentucky 1997. Won the national championship the following year with Tubby Smith as HC.

Public reps. I was living in Kentucky at the time. You'd think I would have remembered that.

[94GRAD]

Hey, the last time we finished in 10th place, we won the conference tournament!!

I'm stealing this and using it on the Twitter machine!!!

[Xuperman]

What I was looking at is examples of coaches leaving programs the season after they earned a #1 seed. I can't think of a single example where that has happened. So, what we are experiencing right now is kind of a first.

This is significant. Couple that with what MANY PEOPLE here think is less than acceptable BE level talent to work with, you have a perfect storm. If the harsh criticism directed at our returning core 4 continues have merit, Coach is basically dealing with ALL FOUR YEARS of failed recruiting by CM. I mean what is being said about Q and the perception that Ty has a very limited skill set, our JR and SR classes are basically a bust....not to mention the failed freshman class.

I strongly disagree with the negativity directed at our core 4 but aside from Zach, we are getting nothing of significance from the rest of the roster. We are breaking new ground here and Coach needs to be given all benefit of doubt.

[IM4X]

Saw something on Facebook today from Shannon Russell about Malcolm Bernard being in town rehabbing his torn AchillesÂ’ tendon. He apparently has asked Steele if he can talk to the team. Malcolm was part of the team that lost 6 in a row. WeÂ’ll see what happens.


That’s awesome- Thanks for sharing!

I was hoping (even posted about it a bit ago) that he would talk to the team. The perfect player to remind this team that they can still turn things around. He may be just the guy to push the right buttons to get this team playing together at a higher level, leaving it all on the floor.

I could see him getting the core four fired up becasue they saw what he meant to and did for that elite eight team (even though Paul and Naji did not playing on it). I could also see him connecting with the 1 year transfers - players who are in the same situation he was - about the importance of stepping up now and leaving it all on the floor... because this is it for them.

[fellahmuskie]

Hear me out. We beat Providence in a battle of last place teams, Creighton beats Seton Hall at home and SJU loses to Nova. Back within a game of 3rd place.

[SemajParlor]

Someone brought up previously if there were any 1 seeds to miss the tourney next year. I saw on twitter there have been 10 or 11 (can't remember now which) times that a one seed has missed the tourney the next year.

Yeah it happens more than you think.

Off top of my head Kentucky in 2013 (Robert Morris NIT game)

Florida did it twice actually. 2014 Scottie Wilbiken year and 2008 where both Florida and Ohio St didnt get back to tournament after both making finals as 1 seeds

Imagine St Joes too? I don't think they made tourney after Jameer and Delonte

EDIT : Looked up St Joes yeah , they lost to GW (lol) the year after in A10 finals. Shoutout Pops Mensah Bonsu

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yeah it happens more than you think.

Off top of my head Kentucky in 2013 (Robert Morris NIT game)

Florida did it twice actually. 2014 Scottie Wilbiken year and 2008 where both Florida and Ohio St didnt get back to tournament after both making finals as 1 seeds

Imagine St Joes too? I don't think they made tourney after Jameer and Delonte

EDIT : Looked up St Joes yeah , they lost to GW (lol) the year after in A10 finals. Shoutout Pops Mensah Bonsu

Pops!

Was that the year GW was like 25-1 but only got an 8 seed because they had no good wins and the A10 was crap?

Or maybe that was 2006 the next year when we won 4 in 4 to make it?

[Xuperman]

What ever happened to Mike Jarvis?

[Xuperman]

Thought about starting an Elias Harden thread but didn’t want to give my take on him that much exposure. Besides, the title of this thread seems appropriate.

The overwhelming perception is that he was recruited as an ELITE shooter. If that is the case, I hope Coach Steele was not the point man in getting him here because someone saw something he is not. His shot is WAY OFF. His release is unusual...it looks funky coming off his hand. He seems to struggle with timing the release at the top of his jump. He’s hit the side of the backboard multiple times from the corner and has a plethora of bricks from everywhere else. He is now 11 for 38. Take away Maui and it’s 4 of 29, just 3 of his last 24! Obviously after nearly 2 years, he is not a high D1 shooter. Some are now seeing him as a defense specialist but he is in no way a “lock down” defender.

Unfortunately, if he wants to salvage any kind of college career, it will have to be at a mid major because it’s not happening here. Steele will play his incoming guys next year for sure and I can’t see him wanting to ride the pine waiting for mop up minutes. He seems to be a nice kid with a great attitude and some physical tools but Transfer is inevitable.

[GoMuskies]

Hear me out. We beat Providence in a battle of last place teams, Creighton beats Seton Hall at home and SJU loses to Nova. Back within a game of 3rd place.

I mean, Xavier would not have to get crazy hot to somehow sneak out of the opening round at MSG. Just pull out a couple of these close ones (like last night). Doesn't seem likely, but who knows.

[fellahmuskie]

I mean, Xavier would not have to get crazy hot to somehow sneak out of the opening round at MSG. Just pull out a couple of these close ones (like last night). Doesn't seem likely, but who knows.

Yeah, we'll see. X doesnt have to get that much better. Just be a little less sucky.

[SemajParlor]

What ever happened to Mike Jarvis?

A lot of off the court stuff. Elijah Ingram was charged with assault, few guys kicked off the team.

[X-band '01]

What ever happened to Mike Jarvis?

Finished his coaching career unceremoniously at Florida Atlantic a while back.

[RetireFiftyTu]

Since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 64 teams (1-16 seeds x 4) in 1985, 18 teams missed the tournament the year after they got a 1 seed. Xavier appears poised to make that 19. UNLV was a 1 seed in 1991 but was ineligible for the following year so they were excluded despite going 26-2. Teams that missed: 1989 Purdue, 1989 Temple, 1991 Oklahoma, 1992 UNLV (ineligible), 1993 Ohio State, 1997 UConn, 1998 Minnesota, 2004 Oklahoma, 2005 St. Joe's, 2007 UConn, 2008 Florida, 2008 Ohio State, 2010 North Carolina, 2010 UConn, 2012 Pitt, 2013 Kentucky, 2014 Indiana, 2015 Florida. The year listed is the year they missed the tournament not the year they got a 1 seed.

Two teams have finished under .500 the year after getting a 1 seed:
1989 Purdue went 15-16 (.484)
2015 Florida went 16-17 (.485)

Most losses the year after getting a 1 seed:
2010 UNC - 17
2012 Pitt - 17
2015 Florida - 17

Fewest wins the year after getting a 1 seed:
1989 Purdue - 15
1993 Ohio State - 15

10 worst Kenpom finishes the year after getting a 1 seed:
2005 Stanford - 69
2012 Pitt - 64
2014 Indiana - 63
2010 UNC - 61
2004 Oklahoma - 56
2007 UConn - 56
2013 Kentucky - 55
2010 UConn - 51
2005 St. Joe's - 49
1998 Minnesota - 45

Only 4 coaches have changed teams the year after leading their squad to a 1 seed but only Chris Mack has achieved a 1 seed and then gone to another college program.
UMass got a 1 seed in 1996 and then John Calipari left to go coach the Nets.
Kentucky got a 1 seed in 1997 and then Rick Pitino left to coach the Celtics.
Stanford got a 1 seed in 2004 and then Mike Montgomery left to coach the Warriors.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 64 teams (1-16 seeds x 4) in 1985, 18 teams missed the tournament the year after they got a 1 seed. Xavier appears poised to make that 19. UNLV was a 1 seed in 1991 but was ineligible for the following year so they were excluded despite going 26-2. Teams that missed: 1989 Purdue, 1989 Temple, 1991 Oklahoma, 1992 UNLV (ineligible), 1993 Ohio State, 1997 UConn, 1998 Minnesota, 2004 Oklahoma, 2005 St. Joe's, 2007 UConn, 2008 Florida, 2008 Ohio State, 2010 North Carolina, 2010 UConn, 2012 Pitt, 2013 Kentucky, 2014 Indiana, 2015 Florida. The year listed is the year they missed the tournament not the year they got a 1 seed.

Two teams have finished under .500 the year after getting a 1 seed:
1989 Purdue went 15-16 (.484)
2015 Florida went 16-17 (.485)

Most losses the year after getting a 1 seed:
2010 UNC - 17
2012 Pitt - 17
2015 Florida - 17

Fewest wins the year after getting a 1 seed:
1989 Purdue - 15
1993 Ohio State - 15

10 worst Kenpom finishes the year after getting a 1 seed:
2005 Stanford - 69
2012 Pitt - 64
2014 Indiana - 63
2010 UNC - 61
2004 Oklahoma - 56
2007 UConn - 56
2013 Kentucky - 55
2010 UConn - 51
2005 St. Joe's - 49
1998 Minnesota - 45

Only 4 coaches have changed teams the year after leading their squad to a 1 seed but only Chris Mack has achieved a 1 seed and then gone to another college program.
UMass got a 1 seed in 1996 and then John Calipari left to go coach the Nets.
Kentucky got a 1 seed in 1997 and then Rick Pitino left to coach the Celtics.
Stanford got a 1 seed in 2004 and then Mike Montgomery left to coach the Warriors.

Good stuff, thanks!

[SemajParlor]

Good stuff FiftyTu. You're an excellent twitter follow as well.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Good stuff FiftyTu. You're an excellent twitter follow as well.

Co-Sign.

[noteggs]

What’s wild about the 2010 UNC team missing the tournament is they won it in 2009.