40 Years Since Bob Staak Started

[Masterofreality]

Just want to post this as salve for the Saturday wound:

Especially for those SucKS cretins that keep posting that they've ruled this City.

Last 40 years since Bob Staak 1st year.
Xavier 23 wins
UC 17 wins
First year X coaching winners:
Mack
Gillen
Staak
First year X coaching losers:
Prosser
Matta
Miller
Steele
First year uc Coaching losers:
Yates
Huggins
Kennedy
Conclusions:
Xavier has been more than competitive in this series, and actually better, for 4 decades.
1st year coaches do not do well.
By the way. F-ing Golfer/Alleged Coach Tay Baker lost all 6 games straight to SucKS so the all-time series would be a LOT closer if that guy had never been hired.

[xudash]

I'm glad you posted that MOR.

I've been a little reflective since Saturday's loss, and your post got me thinking about the long view again and where we're headed. The warning here is that everything I type from here on in this post may be a tad rambled.

At any rate, here we go:

1. The Game Itself

To the untrained eye (i.e. no personal experience at playing the sport), it was an absolute mess. I'm in no position to address what went wrong technically or from a coach's vantage point, but it just seemed as though this Xavier team folded in the second half. I understand that there were 3 transfers and some freshmen who had never experienced this game before, let alone in Clifton where the UC faithful were gathered for revenge in their remodeled warehouse, but excuses won't work here. Preparation was still available through coaching emphasis and even having them watch video clips of Shootouts past, etc. Is it truly a fundamental lack of overall talent, this team not meshing together yet, a rookie coach and his staff still finding their way, or some combination of all the above? We'll see if there is still some hope for the season from here, in particular as this squad takes on the balance of its OOC schedule. MIZZOU has become a must win in my book.


2. The Program's Future

There are internal and external factors at play in this one, as always. The one thing I'm focused on the most on this topic today is the announcement out of New York that Val Ackerman, et al have secured MSG on a fixed, hard basis for the next decade for the BET. You may or may not know that there was an opt-out provision in the deal - you do know that had you read all the news concerning the announcement. Not any more. Delaney and Swofford now have to sit there and eat it for 10 years. But it's bigger than the MSG contract itself, because that is itself a cornerstone to the attractiveness of the league overall, and that will translate into and impact the next media rights deal. A key, massive external factor - CONFERENCE AFFILIATION AND STRENGTH - almost could not be better positioned as we move forward from here.

The key internal factor at this point obviously is the coaching staff. I believe in Travis Steele. I"m all-in with him. With the recruiting prowess he's already demonstrated and with the growth I believe he'll achieve as he moves forward in THE CHAIR I believe we'll nail the final 2%. Having noted that, I trust by now that anyone reading this will never doubt again the importance of continuity when it comes to a coaching staff and continuity's impact on recruiting. Seriously, I'm now thinking that we missed on the 2018 class not because we were full up with talent already, but because other coaching staffs were whispering to recruits that UL was in serious turmoil and that Pitino's days were numbered and that it was a foregone conclusion that Mack would leave Victory Parkway to take that job. Out goes Mack and Murray, et al and the turmoil ensued. As a key point in all this, thank God we were able to retain Jenkins. Continuity? It is not the be all, end all thing, but ask Gonzaga fans how it has worked out for them with Mark Few. Can we do it now with Steele where we couldn't do it with one of our own? Actually, I think we can, because Steele married into a major Xavier family. HIS wife is from Cincinnati this time around. Who knows, but we'll see. Five years down the road from here if he is as good as I hope most of us think he will be, the landscape may be such that the Xavier program is even that much stronger than it is today.


3. Gratefully Spoiled Fanbase

We've had a lot of success. There is no other way to see it. That is true even in the face of the missing 2%. So the Mack departure has caused us to tack the boat and move forward in choppier waters for a little bit. Saturday and the blown chance against Auburn and the blown lead against SDSU and the sporadic play overall are all reminders that we're in a brave new world for this season, in particular. None of this means that we can't want the team to do their very best. It's Steele's job to extract that from them, as he otherwise figures out the best player combinations and schemes to put out there. But most of you cautioned us about expecting too much from this version of Xavier basketball, at least initially.

On that note, I'll go full circle and hope that Steele can still mold this unit into a reasonably effective team for the balance of the season, knowing that Pepto-Bismol will be good to have around, while also believing that the future is bright.

The trend line from Tay to Travis has been solidly up.

The final 2% by 2020/21.

[Masterofreality]

Although we were all hopeful in the summer, the fact is that Mack's last few mediocre recruiting classes have come home to roost. We have two sophomores only playing any meaningful minutes, there is no long term Senior Leadership and our bench is grad transfers and non-impact frosh. Grad transfers that Travis was forced to go out & get late because of a dearth in the program. There were obviously signs, that many of us did not want to see with this LouiSewer thing , but the fact that it has been credibly reported that Mack met with LouiSewer reps in New York last year during the BE Tournament, meant that there was more than just smoke out there in the landscape for a long time. I was amazed that a kid that we supposedly had locked up-between us and Rhode Island, decided to go to Rhodee, even though Hurley wasn't exactly solid there. Can only say that Mack/Murray (who was responsible for the East Coast) err, "Coasted" the last few. And, yeah, continuity has ALWAYS been overly important. Xavier has been incredibly fortunate over the last 40 years with all of the changes. I don't buy this "stay in one place too long and your stale" trash

This team has blown all of it's high profile chances for big non-conference wins that we have gotten for years. Rolled at home by Wisconsin, rolled on the road by the Darkside, and blew a game vs SD State because of "loss of focus". I don't know if we can beat Missouri, but at best we're gonna be 9-4 going into the league. Even if we get to 9-9, which is very questionable given this performance so far, that means only 18 wins and a probable Wednesday first game in the BE Tourney. Anybody remotely thinking that X has a chance to make the Dance based upon this team's shooting/focus/defensive issues is seeing unicorns and leprechauns. I'm hoping for an NIT bid at this point.

Finally, this doesn't mean I'm down on Travis or the overall program long term, but short (two year) term my expectations are not high. I'm where I was when Matta left after 2004. Miller went 17-12 and only got to 21 wins and the Dance the next year by luckily having the A10 Tourney in Cincy and won 4 games in 4 days after Chaney & Temple got magically knocked out in the 3rd Round by St. Joes. We almost lost to Charlotte in the 2nd Round of that A10 Tourney that year then got to play Fordham who had upset LaSalle (who was 18-10 that year and 10-6 in the league) & who had Steve Smith, Jermaine Thomas & Darnell Harris. We were very close to not having any postseason tournament for two straight years. We're gonna be depending A LOT on freshmen next year too after losing these grad transfers. If Harden doesn't get time, he may transfer too which kills even more depth next year. I thhink we will be tough as hell in Paul Scruggs and Naji's Senior year, but until then, buckle up for some lessons.

[Muskie]

I think most of us recognize the value of continuity. In our case, it wasn't possible as we didn't have the money from either the University, Donors, or a combination thereof to pay what Lousiville was willing to pay Mack. I've posted several times that the move to the Big East was great for the University, but that we fans had to be willing to participate at a higher level financially (within our own means individually). I'm loathed to tell anyone how to spend their hard earned money, but the revenue and donations needed to promote continuity and consistency on a yearly basis in the Big East will only continue to increase. Need evidence? Look at Marquette's new accommodations or the practice facilities at Georgetown. So it's one thing to say "pay the man" or "Pay the woman", it's another to get people to open their wallets.

[Masterofreality]

Yeah. I can't fault any donors too much. The school was willing to go to $3 mil to keep Mack, but LouiSewer just is spending crazy money including over $15 million to buy out other coaches plus paying XU $4.5 mill to buy out Mack. Then paying him what they're paying him. Mack was going no matter what. That was wife dictated. It made no difference.

Xavier did what it could do in the context of the other financial things they are trying to do- A) Get the Endowment up, B) Get the HUB built. C) Get a possible new Dorm where the potential hotel was going to go. I like our perspective, but hope that there are more Fat Cats out there that appreciate the X mission.

[whopper]

As a Xavier parent(2 recent grads) and a Catholic HS parent of grads(2) I try to stretch each year for a 4 figure donation (at least combined..the schools have given me and them a lot of academic and athletic pleasure). By the same token I worked a second job 2 x per week as adjunct faculty, drive 2001 and 2003 cars and have never left the country so I do scrimp. I wish they did not cut the charitable deduction as I won't itemize going forward. The table stakes are very high to play at this level and of course the rewards are high as well and the pressure to produce must be high (I can imagine that DePaul wants to improve for alumni contributions, and Loyola Chicago saw a multi million dollar bump (they are actually bigger than Xavier with 11,000 students). A few bad years can cause a drop off(U of Conn mens coach fired(Ollie) as buzz was off and alumni mad). I played in a summer league game against Staak once, his team had enough players foul out to only have 4 players(a summer league) and he just took over and won the game single handedly as he must have been taking it easy before. A great UConn player from the 60s and we were a few years younger but he busted our bubble. Look forward to the season and hope for the best.

[Xville]

I think most of us recognize the value of continuity. In our case, it wasn't possible as we didn't have the money from either the University, Donors, or a combination thereof to pay what Lousiville was willing to pay Mack. I've posted several times that the move to the Big East was great for the University, but that we fans had to be willing to participate at a higher level financially (within our own means individually). I'm loathed to tell anyone how to spend their hard earned money, but the revenue and donations needed to promote continuity and consistency on a yearly basis in the Big East will only continue to increase. Need evidence? Look at Marquette's new accommodations or the practice facilities at Georgetown. So it's one thing to say "pay the man" or "Pay the woman", it's another to get people to open their wallets.

Mack didn't leave because of money, and the subject of continuity in my opinion is completely overblown. Xavier has done just fine without it, and Xavier is never going to be a destination job. To think or believe otherwise is silly in my humble opinion.

[xudash]

Mack didn't leave because of money, and the subject of continuity in my opinion is completely overblown. Xavier has done just fine without it, and Xavier is never going to be a destination job. To think or believe otherwise is silly in my humble opinion.

I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but my counter - and reasoning - for placing an emphasis on continuity is all about its impact on recruiting. It is highly disruptive to change a coaching staff, regardless of the pedigree of the program. In fact, the fact that we did it as well as we did while being a member of the A10 makes what we did even more impressive.

There is no one right answer here, but, all else being equal, especially when it's "equal" with a solid head coach already on board, continuity is a very, very good thing. Gonzaga is certainly no end all, be all, and I wouldn't trade Xavier's place in all this with them for anything, but you can't possibly ignore the impact Few has had on that program. Recruits have become conditioned to truly believe he's in it for the long haul there. Regardless of Gonzaga's brand at the time when Few finally steps aside, they're going to face a very critical moment, as they will not have faced a coaching change in years and, unless something changes, they remain extremely vulnerable as a result of their conference affiliation.

I'm not going to state that I believe that Xavier has become a destination job, because of the money disparity as we all know, but I'm also not going to go down the definitive NEVER route. You noted that Mack didn't leave because of money. So, we tend to think or believe that he left because of his wife's desire to go home. A Xavier graduate married a Louisville girl and so it goes. Well, we now have a Butler graduate who married into a prominent Xavier/Cincinnati family. IF Travis proves he's the cat's meow in all this and Xavier eventually takes him up into the $3mm per year stratosphere as a result of high achievement, who is to say that it's not in his makeup to want to stay in Cincinnati and make a commanding legacy for himself on Victory Parkway. You can live in Hyde Park on $3mm per year.

[Xavier]

I think continuity is critical. I felt like Xavier was on the edge of being a power house with Miller- you could feel it. Even more so with Mack (2 seed, elite 8, 1 seed/BE champ) taking that momentum I truly believe X was on the right path to becoming Nova. With each coach leaving comes minor set backs that take awhile to reclaim, if at all. Its always risky. How many programs have won a NC, or had high continued success (High seeds/deep runs/FF hopes) year in year out where the school is not a destination job.

In the end, I suppose it depends on what you think is realistic. If you believe Xavier is a place where if everything lined up with recruits, right coach, etc. etc. and we can catch lightning in a a bottle and win 1 NC or do you think we could become a Villanova or even Gonzaga type program. The latter requires a coach to stay for 10+ years.

[Masterofreality]

I think continuity is critical. I felt like Xavier was on the edge of being a power house with Miller- you could feel it. Even more so with Mack (2 seed, elite 8, 1 seed/BE champ) taking that momentum I truly believe X was on the right path to becoming Nova. With each coach leaving comes minor set backs that take awhile to reclaim, if at all. Its always risky. How many programs have won a NC, or had high continued success (High seeds/deep runs/FF hopes) year in year out where the school is not a destination job.

In the end, I suppose it depends on what you think is realistic. If you believe Xavier is a place where if everything lined up with recruits, right coach, etc. etc. and we can catch lightning in a a bottle and win 1 NC or do you think we could become a Villanova or even Gonzaga type program. The latter requires a coach to stay for 10+ years.

It took Mark Few 17 years to make a Final Four. When you are not the "Payers Programs" like UK, Kansas, NC, Duke or Indiana you will probably have to catch a collapsed bracket or incredible luck like Moser or Stevens to not have long term continuity and make a Final Four.

[paulxu]

When did we agree Mack didn't leave for the money.
I happen to like Chris Mack (I know, very small minority) but I also think the dollars played a big part, as well as the destination.

[noteggs]

I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but my counter - and reasoning - for placing an emphasis on continuity is all about its impact on recruiting. It is highly disruptive to change a coaching staff, regardless of the pedigree of the program. In fact, the fact that we did it as well as we did while being a member of the A10 makes what we did even more impressive.

You’re absolutely right, coaching change is the most disruptive thing to a team the year it happens. Kennedy tested the waters and not sure either him or James could have landed at comparable teams to X that late in the process (obviously Kennedy found out but sure James would have experienced the same). Bourdreaux knew Purdue would welcome him with open arms. Heck, the entire 2019 recruitment class only became an “interest” or “priority” after Steele was hired. Think Beverly was the last potential recruit from the Mack era.

Ironically news about potential scandals about recruiting violations are not. Just look at the 2019 recruiting rankings for schools named in the Adidas scandal - pretty impressive.

[Xville]

When did we agree Mack didn't leave for the money.
I happen to like Chris Mack (I know, very small minority) but I also think the dollars played a big part, as well as the destination.

I'd say money was a factor but probably more.like 5th or 6th reason. If it was money, he could have left for any number of programs that went after him. He left because it was within the region, close to his family, wifes family, and though a dumpster in the near term, it's a top 10, maybe top 5 program in the country with double the fan base xavier has every night.

Not a fan of the guy...wasnt a fan when he was here and now I just think hes a complete fool. Lucky for me I get to see his ugly mug with his awful wardrobe while my wife watches the games.

[JTG]

How much truth is there to the rumor that Mack and the guys he took guys he took with him were actively recruiting for UL during the 17-18 season ? It would explain why we couldn't hit on any of our targets for the first time in forever.

[XUGRAD80]

How much truth is there to the rumor that Mack and the guys he took guys he took with him were actively recruiting for UL during the 17-18 season ? It would explain why we couldn't hit on any of our targets for the first time in forever.

No one will probably ever know for sure. But there is no doubt in my mind that the rumors that he was leaving probably had a very negative effect on Xavier’s ability to get players to commit.

[mid major]

No one will probably ever know for sure. But there is no doubt in my mind that the rumors that he was leaving probably had a very negative effect on Xavier’s ability to get players to commit.

So the rumors of Mack passing the reigns to Steele during the BET was probably true as well?

[whopper]

one thing that was never analyzed (and maybe no need) is the rift between Trevon and Mack.. I don't think there was any "tweet" from Trevon about Mack as there were from others. I have my theory (Kanter took game ender against Prov and FSU) but does anyone else know more (i.e. Trevon thought Mack had bailed mentally). It was a sad ending to a great run. I also wonder if some hard feelings as Mack favored Naj over Kaiser. All gone now though

[RetireFiftyTu]

How much truth is there to the rumor that Mack and the guys he took guys he took with him were actively recruiting for UL during the 17-18 season ? It would explain why we couldn't hit on any of our targets for the first time in forever.

This just didn't happen.

[Xavier]

I can get why people would think he quietly recruited to Louisville. (I doubt it, though- in this day and age that would be tough to keep quiet) But I will never buy into Mack checking out. I don't care what his plans are after the season, no coach is going to throw away a 1 seed and check out or let the assistant take over.

[Xville]

I can get why people would think he quietly recruited to Louisville. (I doubt it, though- in this day and age that would be tough to keep quiet) But I will never buy into Mack checking out. I don't care what his plans are after the season, no coach is going to throw away a 1 seed and check out or let the assistant take over.

Maybe not secretly recruiting for Louisville but I can certainly buy the "checking out" premise. In my career, when I have made a decision to explore other opportunities or been offered a new position, I can't say then that I am 100% mentally committed to my current situation. Maybe others are wired differently than I am, but I find it almost impossible to be fully invested in two separate outcomes.

[Xavier]

I think it is a totally different situation when compared to 99% of non sport careers. As a coach I find it hard to believe Mack would think despite his best opportunity to win a National Championship he would wish away the tournament so he can go to Louisville. Maybe it is naive but I'd think its extremely rare to pass on a 1 seed in the tournament, especially your first ever. Most coaches are too competitive in that situation.

Over summer if he is in limbo between the schools with recruits/time/etc.- yeah, he isn't fully invested. When you are coaching the best team you've put together with a great shot at a final four- you remain invested.

[JTG]

I think it is a totally different situation when compared to 99% of non sport careers. As a coach I find it hard to believe Mack would think despite his best opportunity to win a National Championship he would wish away the tournament so he can go to Louisville. Maybe it is naive but I'd think its extremely rare to pass on a 1 seed in the tournament, especially your first ever. Most coaches are too competitive in that situation.

Over summer if he is in limbo between the schools with recruits/time/etc.- yeah, he isn't fully invested. When you are coaching the best team you've put together with a great shot at a final four- you remain invested.

Then why did he meet with UL people DURING the Big East Tournament ?

[scoscox]

I think greg christopher said something along the lines that he and coach mack met and discussed the job as soon as pitino left. that sat very poorly with me. hard to think it wasn't playing any sort of factor in his mindset if he'd been thinking about it for a year and a half

[RetireFiftyTu]

Then why did he meet with UL people DURING the Big East Tournament ?

Do you have a reputable source that can confirm this?

[JTG]

I think Mack turned out to be the prick that a small segment of the fan base swore he was from the start. In a different world Christopher could have told him to hit the road and let Steele coach the NCAA games. But X didn't have the deep pockets to do that. Face it, Mack fucked over his alma mater's best shot at a Final Four, when the job would have been there after the tournament.

[Muskie]

Do you have a reputable source that can confirm this?

I do. But I’m not original poster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

You can live in Hyde Park on $3mm per year.

I'd like to see Travis try it with my wife and daughter.

[JTG]

I do. But I’m not original poster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks for the back up Muskie.

[xudash]

I'd like to see Travis try it with my wife and daughter.

Ha! Well done Mel.

[XUGRAD80]

I think it is a totally different situation when compared to 99% of non sport careers. As a coach I find it hard to believe Mack would think despite his best opportunity to win a National Championship he would wish away the tournament so he can go to Louisville. Maybe it is naive but I'd think its extremely rare to pass on a 1 seed in the tournament, especially your first ever. Most coaches are too competitive in that situation.

Over summer if he is in limbo between the schools with recruits/time/etc.- yeah, he isn't fully invested. When you are coaching the best team you've put together with a great shot at a final four- you remain invested.

Totally agree. Unlike in the business world, a coach is so totally invested in his players that the thought of not giving them your all is almost unthinkable. Doesn’t mean that other parts of the job may not be neglected.....including recruiting for the future teams that you won’t be a part of....but I can’t see a coach neglecting the current squad in any way.

[Xville]

Totally agree. Unlike in the business world, a coach is so totally invested in his players that the thought of not giving them your all is almost unthinkable. Doesn’t mean that other parts of the job may not be neglected.....including recruiting for the future teams that you won’t be a part of....but I can’t see a coach neglecting the current squad in any way.

I believe some coaches are totally invested in their players, i think others pretend to give a crap about the kids but really just love the paycheck. Others are probably somewhere in the middle. I can definitely see a coach neglecting a current squad if his mind is basically made up that he is leaving anyways

[RetireFiftyTu]

I do. But I’m not original poster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I was pretty sure that a Xavier insider had debunked this but I guess you never know.

[noteggs]

I believe some coaches are totally invested in their players, i think others pretend to give a crap about the kids but really just love the paycheck. Others are probably somewhere in the middle. I can definitely see a coach neglecting a current squad if his mind is basically made up that he is leaving anyways


I have to agree with XVILLE here on comparing sports vs corporate jobs being similar. Let’s take a salesperson who’s having their best year ever in terms of bonus and breaking company records who is competitive as hell. A bigger competitor notices and starts kicking the tires and explores the opportunity of hiring this individual.

Does the salesperson say “not now because I’m having my best year” or “let me think about it” - probably both. If the latter, they are not fully vested into this company and record stuff at this time (not mentally possibly). From the professional standpoint, they just see a bigger shot to increase their sales potential, money, and a company with better resources. Who wouldn’t want this competitive advantage?

Mack was coming off two incredible years - elite 8 and number 1 seed the next. Like the salesperson, the moves come when you’re most marketable. Mack knew what he left X this year.

[Xavier]

I guess in the way to compare that situation would be the salesman has worked for months on a huge sale, it would be his biggest commissioned sale ever, but on closing day he decides to pass on it because he knows next month he is going to a new job.

[Xville]

I guess in the way to compare that situation would be the salesman has worked for months on a huge sale, it would be his biggest commissioned sale ever, but on closing day he decides to pass on it because he knows next month he is going to a new job.

This kind of thing has happened in ny career a few times now. I'm in sales and each time I have moved on, it has been to a bigger company with bigger name recognition, more money and more stability (better base pay, more benefits, less competition) for myself and my family. I have turned down future commissions that I knew were coming if I stayed because I saw the end game. Honestly, it's never been a difficult decision because companies have zero loyalty to their employees even though they like to pretend they do.

The difference here though is that I have never turned my back on my alma mater and been a complete fool while doing it.

[Xavier]

I suppose it would be like if you were to give your company two weeks notice- within those two weeks you had a chance to make more commission on a sale then ever before but you passed on it.

[XUGRAD80]

This kind of thing has happened in ny career a few times now. I'm in sales and each time I have moved on, it has been to a bigger company with bigger name recognition, more money and more stability (better base pay, more benefits, less competition) for myself and my family. I have turned down future commissions that I knew were coming if I stayed because I saw the end game. Honestly, it's never been a difficult decision because companies have zero loyalty to their employees even though they like to pretend they do.

The difference here though is that I have never turned my back on my alma mater and been a complete fool while doing it.

The difference is....as a salesperson, or working in the business world, you’re not working AS a team. You might be working WITH a team, but there is a vast difference between a SPORTS team at the college level and a WORK team at the professional level. Just the fact that you call Xavier your “alma mater” and one never refers to their first JOB in any such way, shows a difference. We have an “emotional” tie to where we grew up, where we went to school, where are friends, family, and memories are. Coaches also have an emotional tie to their players. They’ve spent hundreds of hours recruiting them, studying film with them coaching them, counseling them, traveling with them, and finally competing with them. It’s akin to the relationship that solders have with people in their platoon or company when they have been together for a long time.

I never had as close of a relationship with anyone in business as I did (and still have) with the coaches and teammates that I had in HS and college. Of even with some of the people I competed against as a player and coach. It would certainly not surprise me in the least if Mack and Steele didn’t talk with each other at least weekly, and it would certainly surprise me greatly if when they do talk that Mack didn’t ask about the players. It would not come as a surprise to me if someone that Mack coached at Xavier would drop in at UL from time to time, just to see him.

I’ll drop in to my old business from time to time to see a few people I used to work with, but once they are gone, I’ll probably never do it again. None of the people I went to X with are still there. None of my teammates or coaches are still there. I doubt that any of my teachers are still there. Yet I’ve gone back to visit the campus, and I still follow the sports teams. Why? Because there is still an emotional connection between the school and me.

It’s the emotional connection between coaches, team members, and the institutions that they represented on the field and on the court that is the difference between having a “job” and having an “alma mater”.

[Xville]

The difference is....as a salesperson, or working in the business world, you’re not working AS a team. You might be working WITH a team, but there is a vast difference between a SPORTS team at the college level and a WORK team at the professional level. Just the fact that you call Xavier your “alma mater” and one never refers to their first JOB in any such way, shows a difference. We have an “emotional” tie to where we grew up, where we went to school, where are friends, family, and memories are. Coaches also have an emotional tie to their players. They’ve spent hundreds of hours recruiting them, studying film with them coaching them, counseling them, traveling with them, and finally competing with them. It’s akin to the relationship that solders have with people in their platoon or company when they have been together for a long time.

I never had as close of a relationship with anyone in business as I did (and still have) with the coaches and teammates that I had in HS and college. Of even with some of the people I competed against as a player and coach. It would certainly not surprise me in the least if Mack and Steele didn’t talk with each other at least weekly, and it would certainly surprise me greatly if when they do talk that Mack didn’t ask about the players. It would not come as a surprise to me if someone that Mack coached at Xavier would drop in at UL from time to time, just to see him.

I’ll drop in to my old business from time to time to see a few people I used to work with, but once they are gone, I’ll probably never do it again. None of the people I went to X with are still there. None of my teammates or coaches are still there. I doubt that any of my teachers are still there. Yet I’ve gone back to visit the campus, and I still follow the sports teams. Why? Because there is still an emotional connection between the school and me.

It’s the emotional connection between coaches, team members, and the institutions that they represented on the field and on the court that is the difference between having a “job” and having an “alma mater”.

I really don't believe there is as much of an emotional connection between Mack and his players, the university, asst coaches...if there was, he would have never left.

[XUGRAD80]

I really don't believe there is as much of an emotional connection between Mack and his players, the university, asst coaches...


........if there was, he would have never left.

Total BS. Nobody ever said that emotional attachment is the ONLY factor that determines if a coach stays or goes. Sometimes adults make decisions that go against what their emotions tell them to do. But once they make the decision it doesn’t mean that it was emotionally easy for them to do so.

I wonder how many of the people posting here were part of a team at Xavier or have ever coached at the HS or collegiate level? If one has not been a part of that, how can they know what it’s all about? How can they make judgements like the one above?

“When I was a child, I thought as a child, and acted as a child. But when I became an adult, I put childish thinking and childish ways behind me.” A child bases things on pure emotion. But an adult can not. That doesn’t mean that the adult loses all emotion. But the adult can control it and not be a slave to it.
I fear that many here, that like to bash Mack, are still letting their emotions control their thoughts and their posts.

[Xville]

Total BS. Nobody ever said that emotional attachment is the ONLY factor that determines if a coach stays or goes. Sometimes adults make decisions that go against what their emotions tell them to do. But once they make the decision it doesn’t mean that it was emotionally easy for them to do so.

I wonder how many of the people posting here were part of a team at Xavier or have ever coached at the HS or collegiate level? If one has not been a part of that, how can they know what it’s all about? How can they make judgements like the one above?

“When I was a child, I thought as a child, and acted as a child. But when I became an adult, I put childish thinking and childish ways behind me.” A child bases things on pure emotion. But an adult can not. That doesn’t mean that the adult loses all emotion. But the adult can control it and not be a slave to it.
I fear that many here, that like to bash Mack, are still letting their emotions control their thoughts and their posts.

Total bs in your opinion and save me the if you haven't done it, you dont know what it's like argument. I haven't played d 1 basketball but I have seen enough and played enough basketball in a team environment o make informed opinions.

Adults make emotional decisions with no logical reasoning all the time.

[XUGRAD80]

Total bs in your opinion and save me the if you haven't done it, you dont know what it's like argument. I haven't played d 1 basketball but I have seen enough and played enough basketball in a team environment o make informed opinions.

Adults make emotional decisions with no logical reasoning all the time.


Save me the “i’ve never had any experience, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night” explication of your expertise. If you’ve never been a member of a college team and never been a coach, what are you basing your statement on? Band camp stories? TV shows? Movies? You’re sure not basing it on any actual facts or experience, are you?

Adults make emotional statements all the time too. That doesn’t make them correct.

[Xville]

Save me the “i’ve never had any experience, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night” explication of your expertise. If you’ve never been a member of a college team and never been a coach, what are you basing your statement on? Band camp stories? TV shows? Movies? You’re sure not basing it on any actual facts or experience, are you?

Adults make emotional statements all the time too. That doesn’t make them correct.

What facts do you have? I'm basing it on an informed opinion based on my experience and what I saw and heard from your buddy, chris as well as from chris' in-laws who btw I live in the same city with and know.

If you want to believe Chris was not half checked out after meeting with louisville during the be championship and agreed in principle to leaving, be my guest.

[XUGRAD80]

I really don't believe there is as much of an emotional connection between Mack and his players, the university, asst coaches...if there was, he would have never left.

So..you made THIS^ statement based on what you saw, your own personal experience as a team member (elementary school? CYO? HS?) somewhere and sometime in the past, and the fact that his in-laws and you live in the same area? Wow, just wow.

What “facts” do I have? Hey I’m not trying to defend Chris Mack. I’m only saying that the fact that he left does not prove that there is no, or was no, emotional connection with either the players, coaches, or school.

I also base this on PERSONAL experience that is DIRECTLY related. I was offered a job coaching at Xavier University many years ago, but turned it down to peruse a high school teaching and coaching job. At the time it made much more financial sense for me to go down that path than it did to take a job coaching at my alma mater. That was in spite of the emotional attachement I had to my teammates at X and my emotional attachment to the school. It certainly doesn’t mean that an emotional attachment didn’t exist.

[Xville]

So..you made THIS^ statement based on what you saw, your own personal experience as a team member (elementary school? CYO? HS?) somewhere and sometime in the past, and the fact that his in-laws and you live in the same area? Wow, just wow.

No I made that statement based on my knowledge of what happened at the be tournament and knowing his in laws. If you look back at the time of when people were arguing whether or not mack was leaving, I responded knowing for a fact mack was leaving before it was announced. How do you think that I knew that? Put 2 and 2 together.

[XUGRAD80]

No I made that statement based on my knowledge of what happened at the be tournament and knowing his in laws. If you look back at the time of when people were arguing whether or not mack was leaving, I responded knowing for a fact mack was leaving before it was announced. How do you think that I knew that? Put 2 and 2 together.

But your statement I quoted doesn’t even mention any of that and has nothing to do with your prediction of him leaving before it happened.

What it says is.....because of the fact that he left, he must not have had much of an emotional attachment with his players, asst. coaches, or the school....otherwise he wouldn’t have left.

Besides the fact that he left......what do you base the statement that he didn’t have that emotional connection on?

I think I’ve pretty much refuted the idea that one can’t leave if they have an emotional attachment and the idea that leaving alone means that an emotional attachment doesn’t exist. If you are still contending that leaving alone “proves” your assumption, I still say BS. I’ll not fall into the trap of assuming that you might know something more. If you know something through firsthand observation of meetings, practice, film sections, or coach to player interaction...please tell us about it. Heresay, even if it was something a close family member said to you, isn’t the same thing. Speculation based on the results of games isn’t either. Time to put up or shut up.

[scoscox]

One thing I want to know is what happened to all those Coach Mack's corners they painted in all those elementary schools? Kind of a weird deal for them where they painted him with all that xavier stuff and he left the next year

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

I'm glad you posted that MOR.

I've been a little reflective since Saturday's loss, and your post got me thinking about the long view again and where we're headed. The warning here is that everything I type from here on in this post may be a tad rambled.

At any rate, here we go:

1. The Game Itself

To the untrained eye (i.e. no personal experience at playing the sport), it was an absolute mess. I'm in no position to address what went wrong technically or from a coach's vantage point, but it just seemed as though this Xavier team folded in the second half. I understand that there were 3 transfers and some freshmen who had never experienced this game before, let alone in Clifton where the UC faithful were gathered for revenge in their remodeled warehouse, but excuses won't work here. Preparation was still available through coaching emphasis and even having them watch video clips of Shootouts past, etc. Is it truly a fundamental lack of overall talent, this team not meshing together yet, a rookie coach and his staff still finding their way, or some combination of all the above? We'll see if there is still some hope for the season from here, in particular as this squad takes on the balance of its OOC schedule. MIZZOU has become a must win in my book.


2. The Program's Future

There are internal and external factors at play in this one, as always. The one thing I'm focused on the most on this topic today is the announcement out of New York that Val Ackerman, et al have secured MSG on a fixed, hard basis for the next decade for the BET. You may or may not know that there was an opt-out provision in the deal - you do know that had you read all the news concerning the announcement. Not any more. Delaney and Swofford now have to sit there and eat it for 10 years. But it's bigger than the MSG contract itself, because that is itself a cornerstone to the attractiveness of the league overall, and that will translate into and impact the next media rights deal. A key, massive external factor - CONFERENCE AFFILIATION AND STRENGTH - almost could not be better positioned as we move forward from here.

The key internal factor at this point obviously is the coaching staff. I believe in Travis Steele. I"m all-in with him. With the recruiting prowess he's already demonstrated and with the growth I believe he'll achieve as he moves forward in THE CHAIR I believe we'll nail the final 2%. Having noted that, I trust by now that anyone reading this will never doubt again the importance of continuity when it comes to a coaching staff and continuity's impact on recruiting. Seriously, I'm now thinking that we missed on the 2018 class not because we were full up with talent already, but because other coaching staffs were whispering to recruits that UL was in serious turmoil and that Pitino's days were numbered and that it was a foregone conclusion that Mack would leave Victory Parkway to take that job. Out goes Mack and Murray, et al and the turmoil ensued. As a key point in all this, thank God we were able to retain Jenkins. Continuity? It is not the be all, end all thing, but ask Gonzaga fans how it has worked out for them with Mark Few. Can we do it now with Steele where we couldn't do it with one of our own? Actually, I think we can, because Steele married into a major Xavier family. HIS wife is from Cincinnati this time around. Who knows, but we'll see. Five years down the road from here if he is as good as I hope most of us think he will be, the landscape may be such that the Xavier program is even that much stronger than it is today.


3. Gratefully Spoiled Fanbase

We've had a lot of success. There is no other way to see it. That is true even in the face of the missing 2%. So the Mack departure has caused us to tack the boat and move forward in choppier waters for a little bit. Saturday and the blown chance against Auburn and the blown lead against SDSU and the sporadic play overall are all reminders that we're in a brave new world for this season, in particular. None of this means that we can't want the team to do their very best. It's Steele's job to extract that from them, as he otherwise figures out the best player combinations and schemes to put out there. But most of you cautioned us about expecting too much from this version of Xavier basketball, at least initially.

On that note, I'll go full circle and hope that Steele can still mold this unit into a reasonably effective team for the balance of the season, knowing that Pepto-Bismol will be good to have around, while also believing that the future is bright.

The trend line from Tay to Travis has been solidly up.

The final 2% by 2020/21.




I tend to agree with XUDASH. It sure looked the team folded and maybe it just reflects the team's current makeup, lack of a history together and a difficult year.

It's going to be a tough year in the B.E. It is always a tough conference and I cannot think of one road conference game that I feel is a "gimme". Maybe DePaul or Providence but I'm not even sure about those two. At home, a little better but I don't see us beating Nova, SJU, Marquette, Creighton or Butler.

Like XUDASH, I agree we give Steele the benefit of the doubt. He has earned that. But, all of us will need the patience of Job for the next two years.

One point other posters have made with which I disagree is the notion that X.U. will never be a "destination" job. I submit that such a job is any well thought of program that regularly (maybe not every year) has a legitimate shot at the Final Four. Granted, today, that isn't X.U. but high profile jobs that, in past years, would have been mentioned are not in the mix today. Syracuse, UConn, I.U. and UCLA are no longer, in my opinion, more prestigious than X.U. The "one and dones" don't care about the values, history, academics or graduation rate of a place like Xavier but I think we can start concluding that recruiting the five stars is no longer the only requirement to winning it all. Mark Few and Jay Wright have demonstrated the importance of team chemistry, tenure, etc.

So, I think X.U. has a chance to become elite and I don't believe I'm naïve. Because it will surely take patience and time. And, it will take a strong, hard working and committed coach. I hope we have that in Steele.

I cannot blame Mack for accepting a pile of cash to take over that unprincipled program at an embarrassing excuse for an institution of higher learning. But, also I would not have been surprised if he had declined. I hope to hell the posters who accuse him of stabbing X.U. in the back, are wrong. That means he is as unprincipled as the program whose mantel he assumed. And, I don't wish to believe that. I think we will get a hint when we see what types of players he recruits to Louisville and, of course, how they compete over the long run.

[Xville]

Nm

[Xville]

But your statement I quoted doesn’t even mention any of that and has nothing to do with your prediction of him leaving before it happened.

What it says is.....because of the fact that he left, he must not have had much of an emotional attachment with his players, asst. coaches, or the school....otherwise he wouldn’t have left.

Besides the fact that he left......what do you base the statement that he didn’t have that emotional connection on?

I think I’ve pretty much refuted the idea that one can’t leave if they have an emotional attachment and the idea that leaving alone means that an emotional attachment doesn’t exist. If you are still contending that leaving alone “proves” your assumption, I still say BS. I’ll not fall into the trap of assuming that you might know something more. If you know something through firsthand observation of meetings, practice, film sections, or coach to player interaction...please tell us about it. Heresay, even if it was something a close family member said to you, isn’t the same thing. Speculation based on the results of games isn’t either. Time to put up or shut up.

You are making assumptions about Mack based off your own experiences. My contention is that Mack isn't you and I know way more about the situation than you do. You were the same one at the time that was swearing up and down that mack was staying. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

[XUGRAD80]

You are making assumptions about Mack based off your own experiences. My contention is that Mack isn't you and...... I know way more about the situation than you do..........You were the same one at the time that was swearing up and down that mack was staying. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

You’ve got me confused with someone else. It didn’t surprise me hardly at all that he left, I only questioned why go to a school that will probably end up on probation.

But saying you know more about a situation than someone else doesn’t make it true. By your own admission you weren’t a D1 athlete, you’ve never claimed that you did any coaching, yet you act like an expert on the relationship between coaches and players at that level. You say that IF there was a strong emotional relationship between a coach, his players, and the school that a coach would never leave...” if there was he would never lhave left”.....yet you give nothing to back this up with, and specifically nothing to back up the statement that Mack didn’t have this with Xavier.

I never said that I knew specifics about Mack and his relationship with the players and school. I’ve merely stated that the relationships between college players, the coaches, and the schools is usually a very strong and emotional thing, and that it would be highly unlikely that any college coach would just mail it in during his team’s conference and NCAA tourney competition. You, and others, have stated that they think that Mack did mail it in, and that you don’t think he had much of an emotional tie with the players, coaches, and the school. Based on what?

I’ve ask you to tell us what you base this on. You said because of what you saw at the BE tourney. I’ve asked, what did you see? You haven’t answered that question. You said because you know his in-laws. I ask, what did they tell you? You haven’t answered. The best you’ve come up with....because he left. I call that no reason to have that belief and gave you one example from my own life of why that proves nothing. I could give you many more examples of where coaches have left Xavier and still have great feelings for the school and the players they left behind.

Don’t just tell me I’m wrong....show me how I’m wrong. If you can.

[Xville]

You’ve got me confused with someone else. It didn’t surprise me hardly at all that he left, I only questioned why go to a school that will probably end up on probation.

But saying you know more about a situation than someone else doesn’t make it true. By your own admission you weren’t a D1 athlete, you’ve never claimed that you did any coaching, yet you act like an expert on the relationship between coaches and players at that level. You say that IF there was a strong emotional relationship between a coach, his players, and the school that a coach would never leave...” if there was he would never lhave left”.....yet you give nothing to back this up with, and specifically nothing to back up the statement that Mack didn’t have this with Xavier.

I never said that I knew specifics about Mack and his relationship with the players and school. I’ve merely stated that the relationships between college players, the coaches, and the schools is usually a very strong and emotional thing, and that it would be highly unlikely that any college coach would just mail it in during his team’s conference and NCAA tourney competition. You, and others, have stated that they think that Mack did mail it in, and that you don’t think he had much of an emotional tie with the players, coaches, and the school. Based on what?

I’ve ask you to tell us what you base this on. You said because of what you saw at the BE tourney. I’ve asked, what did you see? You haven’t answered that question. You said because you know his in-laws. I ask, what did they tell you? You haven’t answered. The best you’ve come up with....because he left. I call that no reason to have that belief and gave you one example from my own life of why that proves nothing. I could give you many more examples of where coaches have left Xavier and still have great feelings for the school and the players they left behind.

Don’t just tell me I’m wrong....show me how I’m wrong. If you can.

Well, you are wrong. A coach that is "emotionally invested" doesnt meet with another school to discuss contract parameters during a conference tournament of a team that had enough talent to go to a final four. You can choose to believe that happened or not, I dont really care because I have no way to prove that to you or not but it did happen. If you are Mack and you do that, no way you can then turn the light back on 100% toward the team you are currently competing with.

If we disagree on that point, well we will just have to agree to disagree.

[XUGRAD80]

Well, you are wrong. A coach that is "emotionally invested" doesnt meet with another school to discuss contract parameters during a conference tournament of a team that had enough talent to go to a final four. You can choose to believe that happened or not, I dont really care because I have no way to prove that to you or not but it did happen. If you are Mack and you do that, no way you can then turn the light back on 100% toward the team you are currently competing with.

If we disagree on that point, well we will just have to agree to disagree.

In other words, you’ve got nothing but speculation and opinion shaded by bias and emotion. I thought so.

[Xville]

In other words, you’ve got nothing but speculation and opinion shaded by bias and emotion. I thought so.

In other words you choose to read it as you want. I thought so. I just provided facts that actually occurred. If your opinion is that after all that you still believe he was emotionally invested based on your bias and and emotion, then we can agree to disagree. However, what I wrote is not speculation.

[JTG]

I think maybe, in the back of our minds, many of us thought: This guy is kind of a douche, but he's our douche, and we're winning so I guess it's ok. But in the end, he showed what a douche he was, and to me he's way worse than Matta, or anyone else who has left.

[bleedXblue]

I will never understand why someone who has a really good thing and has a chance to build something really special.......to basically retire a legend in his hometown after coaching his alma mater for 25 years........would walk away from that. Makes little sense to me really. Money, conference, facilities are all very good at X. This isn't the job it was even 5 years ago.......its a top 25 job.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

I will never understand why someone who has a really good thing and has a chance to build something really special.......to basically retire a legend in his hometown after coaching his alma mater for 25 years........would walk away from that. Makes little sense to me really. Money, conference, facilities are all very good at X. This isn't the job it was even 5 years ago.......its a top 25 job.

Well said. But, I think Marge Gunderson said a tiny bit better...………..

"So that was Mrs. Lundergard on the floor in there. And, I guess that was your accomplice in the woodchipper. The three people in Brainerd. And for what? For a little bit of money. There's more to life than a little money you know. Don't you know that? And here you are...….and its a beautiful day."

[XUGRAD80]

In other words you choose to read it as you want. I thought so. I just provided facts that actually occurred. If your opinion is that after all that you still believe he was emotionally invested based on your bias and and emotion, then we can agree to disagree. However, what I wrote is not speculation.

What “facts” ?.....that he talked with Louisville during the BE tourney? That he left X and went to UL? Neither of those proves anything in regards to his emotional connection to his players, his coaches, or the school. Either then or now. To think that they do is nothing but speculation on your part. I can’t see where you have anything but your own feelings and bias to base that speculation on.

But if it makes you feel better to criticize him, or any other coach, for leaving X and going someplace else.....well then I guess no amount of logic and actual information is going to change your mind.

[Xville]

What “facts” ?.....that he talked with Louisville during the BE tourney? That he left X and went to UL? Neither of those proves anything in regards to his emotional connection to his players, his coaches, or the school. Either then or now. To think that they do is nothing but speculation on your part. I can’t see where you have anything but your own feelings and bias to base that speculation on.

But if it makes you feel better to criticize him, or any other coach, for leaving X and going someplace else.....well then I guess no amount of logic and actual information is going to change your mind.

I'm not sure how many times I need to say it for you to understand. Based upon the facts of what I know that occurred, which I have stated about 5 times now, I believe there was not an emotional attachment. Yeah it's my opinion, which is what a message board is mostly full of by the way.

Since that opinion differs from yours based upon your own personal soliloquy, you think it is devoid of logic or actual information which is complete bs. Is it a straight up fact from chris' mouth that he had no emotional attachment to his players or was not emotionally invested last March? No but based upon the facts I have laid out, it really isnt much of a jump.

[Masterofreality]

I do. But I’m not original poster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I do too. Just for the record.

[Masterofreality]

I was pretty sure that a Xavier insider had debunked this but I guess you never know.

Nope.

[Masterofreality]

In other words, you’ve got nothing but speculation and opinion shaded by bias and emotion. I thought so.

Except what Xville contends, is true.

[chico]

Except what Xville contends, is true.

MOR speaks the truth.

[XU 87]

MOR speaks the truth.

Chico also speaks the truth.

[paulxu]

Do I have this right:
1 - Mack was discussing a job at Louisville sometime around tournament time.
2 - From this, some people conclude he wasn't invested in our tournament games with the team?

If those are the basic talking points, the first being confirmed by a number of posters, I just don't know how you can necessarily get to #2.

Mack received multiple offers while our coach. I'm sure they involved many discussions, taking place at all different times. Perhaps an agent was involved.
So, he ended up accepting the last one.
Do we assume point #2 because he left? Or, are we just bummed emotionally about him leaving, so we decide he didn't coach his best in the tournament?
Did we lose to NC State in the First Four in 2014 because California was trying to hire him...but we're OK because he stayed?

He got a 7 year/$28 million dollar offer from Louisville. That's tough to turn down, and to be mad at him for accepting just doesn't make sense.
And he still cheers for us; here's his tweet before the Crosstown shootout:

Chris Mack
‏Verified account @CoachChrisMack
Dec 8

A little busy today but good luck to @CoachSteeleXU and the X Men!!

By the way, I wish like hell that he would have stayed. But wish him luck in the future just like he wished us.

[Xville]

Do I have this right:
1 - Mack was discussing a job at Louisville sometime around tournament time.
2 - From this, some people conclude he wasn't invested in our tournament games with the team?

If those are the basic talking points, the first being confirmed by a number of posters, I just don't know how you can necessarily get to #2.

Mack received multiple offers while our coach. I'm sure they involved many discussions, taking place at all different times. Perhaps an agent was involved.
So, he ended up accepting the last one.
Do we assume point #2 because he left? Or, are we just bummed emotionally about him leaving, so we decide he didn't coach his best in the tournament?
Did we lose to NC State in the First Four in 2014 because California was trying to hire him...but we're OK because he stayed?

He got a 7 year/$28 million dollar offer from Louisville. That's tough to turn down, and to be mad at him for accepting just doesn't make sense.
And he still cheers for us; here's his tweet before the Crosstown shootout:

Chris Mack
‏Verified account @CoachChrisMack
Dec 8

A little busy today but good luck to @CoachSteeleXU and the X Men!!

By the way, I wish like hell that he would have stayed. But wish him luck in the future just like he wished us.

I'll answer to point 2 since I'm the one that based on 1, think 2 is possible. First of all, I'm not bummed emotionally about him leaving. I wasnt much of a fan of his when he was here though of course he did good things. So that has nothing to do with it. The difference between cal and all the other jobs that he was offered and louisville is that with louisville he knew he was leaving. So, I think its certainly possible he was half checked out by and after the be tournament. Want a little bit of proof, go back and look at his interviews around that time..they we odd to say the least.

Again I'm not mad for him leaving. I'm mad because I believe its certinaly possible he half checked out on a team that had the talent and the bracket to get to a final four, and quite frankly, I think hes a bit of a tool.

[paulxu]

Across the years I don't think anyone could absolutely know he would have left for earlier offers...until he didn't.
He built his resume until a job like Louisville came along...but he could have gone to a P5 school earlier when his resume wasn't as strong.

Maybe he's a tool. I don't know him personally. But I think he would have been invested in a good tournament result to boost his job position for the best possible offer.

[chico]

Across the years I don't think anyone could absolutely know he would have left for earlier offers...until he didn't.
He built his resume until a job like Louisville came along...but he could have gone to a P5 school earlier when his resume wasn't as strong.

Maybe he's a tool. I don't know him personally. But I think he would have been invested in a good tournament result to boost his job position for the best possible offer.

The problem is, when you're coaching a team you owe everything you have to that team. The season is still ongoing, yet he's meeting with another school and finalizing a contract to coach there while still coaching another team.

I don't know Mack. I don't know if he's a tool or not (though like most people you hear stuff after the fact). However, it's one thing for a school to make an unsolicited offer. It's quite another to meet with said school - and accept a position with that school - while you're in the midst of preparing for the post-season with another one.

Based on that, even though we'll never know, I think it's completely fair game to wonder what his mindset was during the tournament.