Early Assessemnt

[MHettel]

-5 games in.
-3 seniors that never played for XU before.
-HC in his first year.
-4 Returning guys that played secondary roles so far in their careers.

We gotta figure it out, for sure. a few keys....

- Offensive tempo: we dont have a creator on offense. By that I mean a PG that can get others open while he has the ball, or a catch and shoot guy that gets open on his own. Trevon made Q, because of hustle and screens. The personnel is so different now, and yet we run plays like we have JP and Trevon. Turn it up a notch. The halfcourt offense is our weakness. Push offensively.

- Defensive lack of awareness: This is a mix of issues. Prior recruiting priority of offense over defense. Transfers and D2 guys dont seem too aware about the basic defensive principles. This might be because they had lesser coaching at their previous levels....or maybe their relative talent could mask their deficiencies on defense. ..or maybe they could never play defense which is why they ended up at a lower level in the first place. Not what I expected at all. What is the defensive identity of the team?

-3 pt shooting: We really dont have an elite shooter. Welage should be at 45% given the looks he's had all year. We can't give him 17-20 minutes in a game where he goes 0-3 and is a defensive liability. Its equally as bad that we might actually need him to win or close out games for us. He doesn't rebound or play defense. We need the uptempo offense to result in Welage going to a cormer to hit 3's. He's an outlet for a drive, not a guy that works off of screeens. Again! not the same personnel as last year. Welage needs 35% of the attempts when he is on the floor. Also, TAKE A FOUL!!!! Watch Justin Doellman get flattened on VHS to see what I'm taklking about. Go to the rack!

-3 pt shooting pt. 2: Someone please tell Kaiser Gates to stop advising Quinton. WTF!!! Stop shooting. Or, be better at shooting. Please use your body to get to the rack and make contact instead of hoisting up ugly threes!.

-3 pt shooting pt. 3: No explanation. Just pure slop. Some guys make alot of shots, and the ones they miss seem to just graze off.

Honestly, if we are down 3, and need a guy to step up, I have absolutely no idea who I want taking that shot. We have about 5 guys that can make it, and zero guys i have confiedence in.

[IM4X]

X continues to struggle in a number of areas.

The good news is that this team has enough talent to end up in the top half of the BE (no BE team is looking overly imprsssive).

They first just need to prove they have the ability to play smart and poised for two halves, pass better, guard better (especially against the 3), rebound better, get to the line more, shoot better from the line, stop taking so many quick shots... and they need to shoot better from the 3.

Today Scruggs was 0-5 from 3. Marshall was 1-5. Wealage was 0-2.

[drudy23]

This team's main problem is at the defensive end. No clue how Steele thought this team would be off the charts defensively.

The only player I've been impressed with defensively is Hankins, and even he has a learning curve. No one else sticks out AT ALL in terms of being a defensive stopper.

Our only saving grace is that the Big East is down this year. And we can still beat UC.

[Xville]

I’m not sure where all this talent is that people are saying x has relative to high d1 basketball. Most of these guys wouldn’t be on the team had x not struck out so much on the recruiting trail. They can and will be better as the year goes along but this team isn’t oozing with be talent outside of a few players.

[XURunner85]

At times this team looks really good, usually in first half. They have built some big leads, but then somehow they lose focus. The opponent starts hitting their shots and we go cold. we don't play a very good defense and teams seem to become great 3 point shooters against. On the defense of end we seem to grab a lot of rebounds but on offense we shoot the ball and everyone takes off down the floor and forgetting that the shot might not go in. I am not sure if we were to play slow would help or if we should just play fast tempo run in gun style. if we can get it together soon, we can still have a good year. If not could be long year. One thing for sure, us old guys need to see our cardiologist to make sure our hearts can take these games.

[XfansinKy]

It's like when this team tries to pick up the tempo, it results in Q or Naji shooting some kind of pull up jumper off the dribble that either bricks or bounces off hard, giving the opposition the exact shot we were looking for. What is it that the kid from Columbia is good at? I realize he's trying to fit in a new team/role, but what is he known to be good at?

[xukeith]

I know apples and oranges BUT remember concerns after last year Arizona St. blitzing X last year and we fans were very concerned about small fast guards?

It is early.

The team lacks a leader.

This will NOT be the best defensive team in X history despite Coach Steele's prediction.

It is an all offensive team running plays for JP and Trevon.

I miss Kanter and OMara. Yikes!

I say finish the non conference with only 1 more loss and I will be ecstatic.

9-9 in BE conference-----I will be ect=static.

X looks 2 years away from being good.
No senior leadership or experience. Can't rely on 5 frosh to save the team next year.

2020 is our next "awesome " X team.

[whopper]

Kanter saved our season last year. I loved OMara and Tyrique but neither of them can face or put ball on floor which is a must these days. We are not a final four and probably not even a sweet 16 stretch(barring a miracle) but we must concentrate on the Big East as there will be no more 7 NCAA teams. Castin is fine, a "glue" guy who is not good at any one thing. One thing that annoys me is that I have seen Welage "looked off" by the returning players at times and a much worse shot was the result. He is confident (maybe too) but I would rather see him take a 22 footer off a pass then be a decoy for a drive. If you look at DVR a number of his Auburn 3s were from Castin and Hankins kicking it. We need a 3 pt threat so that Tyrique and Zach and Naj can confidently go to the offensive boards. The funny thing is that I have no idea how we were even IN the Auburn game and how we LOST the San Diego game (with a Q 3to go ahead with a minute and change.

[Caf]

Outside of 2016, we've been a mediocre to sub-par defensive program since Mack's tenure started. So I can understand why Steele said this could be one of our best defensive teams on some level given our roster moves. Obviously our defense stinks like hot garbage at the moment though. I honestly don't see how that can change. It will probably improve a bit since it can't possibly get worse, but this team is just not that quick to close out on the perimeter. I really hope Steele overhauls it. I don't hate the packline as much as some, but this roster is just not suited for it.

More importantly to our style of game play is the offense. I think this one is pretty simple. We lost almost 70% of our scoring from last year. It's going to take some time to figure out each player's role in the offense. It will probably take a little longer given that this is Steele's first year. Naji and Goodin are both taking twice as many shots as they took last year. Facilitating was easy for Goodin last year. He's going to have to do more than throw a swing pass this year given the scoring threats he lost. That will take some getting used to.

[xukeith]

More importantly to our style of game play is the offense. I think this one is pretty simple. We lost almost 70% of our scoring from last year. It's going to take some time to figure out each player's role in the offense. It will probably take a little longer given that this is Steele's first year. Naji and Goodin are both taking twice as many shots as they took last year. Facilitating was easy for Goodin last year. He's going to have to do more than throw a swing pass this year given the scoring threats he lost. That will take some getting used to.
Agree.
I remember when X went 0-3 in a tournament. I believe that was a Miller team. How did that team end up?

Also Mack's Elite 8 team beating Arizona was HORRIBLE in the regular season and a miracle saved that season throwing a piece of paper burnt in a trash can and carrying it around in February.

[Caveat]

I’d have a lot less of a problem doing the “Eh, it’s early...” if the team wasn’t making so many fundamental mistakes on both sides of the ball. On defense, we blow assignments constantly and look lost on screens. On offense, we have no idea where rim protectors are and drive directly into blocked shots. Really basic stuff.

The team simply doesn’t look ready to play.

[mid major]

I wish we'd quit celebrating like we just won the seventh game of the world series after each made basket. There can't be a team in the NCAA better than us at giving up double digit leads.

[scoscox]

I wish we'd quit celebrating like we just won the seventh game of the world series after each made basket. There can't be a team in the NCAA better than us at giving up double digit leads.

Agreed. That's bothered me for awhile even going back to last year

[noteggs]

Agreed. That's bothered me for awhile even going back to last year

I agree as well... unfortunately this is 2018 and every small accomplishment for all sports gets over celebrated. First down crap and feed me stuff. Pull out an old Paul Brown quote, “act like you been there before.”

[X Factor]

I wish we'd quit celebrating like we just won the seventh game of the world series after each made basket. There can't be a team in the NCAA better than us at giving up double digit leads.

Every time Welage hits a three he acts like he just hit the game winner.

[XfansinKy]

Every time Welage hits a three he acts like he just hit the game winner.

That's the first person I thought of when I read the original post.

[waggy]

Looking at Pomeroy efficiencies following Maui and the problem is obvious...

Offensive Eff. Rank


Butler 25
Marquette 20
Creighton 21
Xavier 26

Defensive Eff Rank


Butler 51
Marquette 60
Creighton 57
Xavier 152

The first 3 teams should dance. The last one will not.

Not to say the offense can't and shouldn't improve, but...

[Xuperman]

Mack's Elite 8 team beating Arizona was HORRIBLE in the regular season.

Elite 8 is a stretch but this team will be better than that one, record wise. I don't see how anyone can view Maui in anything but positive light. Could have easily won both the 1st two, DESPITE All the deficiencies that are well documented on this board. Maui showed that we now have 8 guys that can score in double digits. Showed we can take a top 10 to the limit. Showed we can conceivably blow out any high mid major and soundly beat second tier power 5's. Our coach will need to grow into the job quickly and continue to pound defense first. We have a very physically gifted and talented group with great chemistry, until we see some on court friction/finger pointing or any whiff of coach losing the locker room, X will be X!!

[Caf]

Elite 8 is a stretch but this team will be better than that one, record wise. I don't see how anyone can view Maui in anything but positive light. Could have easily won both the 1st two, DESPITE All the deficiencies that are well documented on this board. Maui showed that we now have 8 guys that can score in double digits. Showed we can take a top 10 to the limit. Showed we can conceivably blow out any high mid major and soundly beat second tier power 5's. Our coach will need to grow into the job quickly and continue to pound defense first. We have a very physically gifted and talented group with great chemistry, until we see some on court friction/finger pointing or any whiff of coach losing the locker room, X will be X!!

I completely agree. This team has already grown a lot this season in just 6 games. Maui was a great opportunity for the team to get experience together against quality opponents in a short amount of time. If you compare Wisconsin stats to Illinois, they're two drastically different performances. In the Wisconsin game Naji and Goodin scored over half of our points. Against Illinois they account for 34%.

[Xville]

I completely agree. This team has already grown a lot this season in just 6 games. Maui was a great opportunity for the team to get experience together against quality opponents in a short amount of time. If you compare Wisconsin stats to Illinois, they're two drastically different performances. In the Wisconsin game Naji and Goodin scored over half of our points. Against Illinois they account for 34%.

I agree with most of this but Illinois is absolutely terrible and wisconsin is a tournament team so I'll wait until they beat a decent team with that spread of scoring before acknowledging a whole lot of growth.

[paulxu]

I didn't get to see the last game, but these box scores show some potential for Harden:

v. Auburn 4 minutes no stats

v. San Diego St. 11 minutes 3-6 (3 -5 from 3) 0 TO's 0 Asts 0 Rb 1 PF 9pts

v. Illinois 19 minues 5-7 (4-4 from 3) 2 St 2 TO's 3PF 14 pts

Hope he's developing into a reliable scorer.

[paulxu]

Also, did we use any zone in this tournament? Sorry, I wasn't able to watch most of the games.

[X-man]

I didn't get to see the last game, but these box scores show some potential for Harden:

v. Auburn 4 minutes no stats

v. San Diego St. 11 minutes 3-6 (3 -5 from 3) 0 TO's 0 Asts 0 Rb 1 PF 9pts

v. Illinois 19 minues 5-7 (4-4 from 3) 2 St 2 TO's 3PF 14 pts

Hope he's developing into a reliable scorer.

He was supposed to be the best pure shooter in the class of two years ago. Hopefully this is a sign of good things to come.

[XUGRAD80]

Also, did we use any zone in this tournament? Sorry, I wasn't able to watch most of the games.

Only on a few possessions...a 3-2

[GIMMFD]

He was supposed to be the best pure shooter in the class of two years ago. Hopefully this is a sign of good things to come.

I agree, if he can be the shooting presence we need, then maybe it'll help get Welage going too. I haven't seen many of the games, but there's just a lack of not only defensive focus and slumps, but a calming leader. So far this season Q and Naji haven't lived up to expectations (not saying they've been awful.. well Q has been off, but still), and we really need those guys to have good performances. I'm chalking it up to getting comfortable in a new role for Naji, and Q's shoulder for him, but in reality if those guys don't play well, we're not going to win a lot of games. I'm hoping a week before our next game does some good to get into the gym and work on things. I also hope we stop turning the damn ball over so much. This could be a long season if we don't start figuring some of this stuff out.

[Xuperman]

He was supposed to be the best pure shooter in the class of two years ago. Hopefully this is a sign of good things to come.

It will be all about consistency with Harden. He seems to be somewhat of a one dimensional scorer, so he will have to make the most of his opportunities. A little bit of success can be a detriment because he mainly takes minutes from Scruggs who is/always will be the better player. I am on record saying that Elias could be a prime candidate for transfer...our incoming 2019 SG/Wings look very impressive.

[Caf]

It will be all about consistency with Harden. He seems to be somewhat of a one dimensional scorer, so he will have to make the most of his opportunities. A little bit of success can be a detriment because he mainly takes minutes from Scruggs who is/always will be the better player. I am on record saying that Elias could be a prime candidate for transfer...our incoming 2019 SG/Wings look very impressive.

I really thought he was going to transfer last year. If his minutes per game averages closer to 20 than 10 I think there's a very good chance he stays. The kid has looked great the passed 2 games. Not just in making shots but in his ball handling. The pressure wasn't blistering, but he seems above average at ball handling for a 3pt specialist.

I'm also not sure why you say he's taking minutes away from Scruggs. Paul played 33, 33 and 31 the last 3 games. Any of his substitutions seem to be for rest. Elias has zapped Welage's minutes. It'll be interesting to watch how that plays out.

[Xuperman]

I'm also not sure why you say he's taking minutes away from Scruggs. Paul played 33, 33 and 31 the last 3 games. Any of his substitutions seem to be for rest. Elias has zapped Welage's minutes. It'll be interesting to watch how that plays out.

I guess what I should have said was, he potentially could take more minutes from Paul with consistent production. Only because "technically" they play the same position. Although Coach does seem to like that 3 guard line up, so if he can continue to shoot the 3 ball at 40%+, it will warrant him getting Welage AND Castlin minutes also.

[Caf]

I guess what I meant was, he potentially could take more minutes from Paul with consistent production, only because "technically" they play the same position. Although Coach does seem to like that 3 guard line up, so if he can continue to shoot the 3 ball at 40%+ he will get Castlin AND Welage minutes also.

I see what you're saying. He definitely does seem to have a ceiling on minutes he can play. Harden-Welage-Castlin-Kennedy seem to be splitting the same role.

In Shannon's write up of the tournament she had a nice blurb on Harden. Seems like a great guy.


The bench can deepen. Harden stuck with Xavier last year when he was underweight and buried behind veteran players. He remained with the program after its coaching change despite being promised nothing, not even one minute of playing time. It seemed like his grand debut might have been the career-high nine points he scored Tuesday against the Aztecs, but that was overshadowed by his game against the Illini.

Harden made all four of his 3-point attempts en route to a career-best 14 points. Fans treated him to a standing ovation when he checked out during the second half and he couldn’t stop smiling in the post-game press conference.

“It was a great feeling. But first I just want to thank my teammates for sure, just trusting in me. My coach as well. But it felt good to be out there. My freshman year (I) didn’t play as much, but just waiting on my opportunity and my time came today, so I’m just thankful for the opportunity today,” Harden said.

[paulxu]

I guess what I should have said was, he potentially could take more minutes from Paul with consistent production. Only because "technically" they play the same position. Although Coach does seem to like that 3 guard line up, so if he can continue to shoot the 3 ball at 40%+, it will warrant him getting Welage AND Castlin minutes also.

Goodin and Marshal are shooting less than 30% on 3's, and Scruggs is at 33%. So if Harden can keep up his +50% going, I hope he gets more shots.

[Xuperman]

Yeah, if he can even sniff 50%, hello more "small ball". I guess we're headed that direction anyway because it doesn't look like Jones/Hankins will get much together time and Welage seems to play small. Here's the thing on the subject of transfers. Elias has roughly 37 games under his belt with nothing to show for it until coming out of nowhere in the last 2. Will this continue or is it a mirage? Even if he does continue to improve, I think our 2019 freshman guards are expected to contribute right away. If they arrive as billed, Elias may even be "nudged" to transfer.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

This Harden is the one I thought we would see this year. He is a bit timid. I think if he got more aggressive he would get more playing time.

That said, this team is built for small ball or really ended up being a small ball team. We will get a lot better once Marshall and Goodin dump the hero ball in favor of a more even handed approach on offense. That should also allow them to devote more energy on defense.

Edit to say that I bet Steele plays the matchups with Kennedy/Harden/Welage. All three can shoot, none play great defense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scoscox]

Yeah, if he can even sniff 50%, hello more "small ball". I guess we're headed that direction anyway because it doesn't look like Jones/Hankins will get much together time and Welage seems to play small. Here's the thing on the subject of transfers. Elias has roughly 37 games under his belt with nothing to show for it until coming out of nowhere in the last 2. Will this continue or is it a mirage? Even if he does continue to improve, I think our 2019 freshman guards are expected to contribute right away. If they arrive as billed, Elias may even be "nudged" to transfer.

If he continues to improve there’s no chance he’ll be nudged to transfer. He was our best player against Illinois. Why would we want him to? Elias could be a big part of our success the next few years. Every team needs a 6’6” wing who can defend and hit threes. I like Elias a lot

[scoscox]

I am still upset that he has basically been bolted to the bench up until this past week. I know he was skinny, but I just don't get why he never saw the floor at all last year. Chris Mack did him dirty. Made him basically waste an entire scholarship year. I root for elias because he stuck with us through that bullshit

[xukeith]

Yeah, if he can even sniff 50%, hello more "small ball". I guess we're headed that direction anyway because it doesn't look like Jones/Hankins will get much together time and Welage seems to play small. Here's the thing on the subject of transfers. Elias has roughly 37 games under his belt with nothing to show for it until coming out of nowhere in the last 2. Will this continue or is it a mirage? Even if he does continue to improve, I think our 2019 freshman guards are expected to contribute right away. If they arrive as billed, Elias may even be "nudged" to transfer.

I seriously doubt 5 frosh will contribute right away. Maybe 2. Look at the Sumner Bluiett, JP class. JP and Sumner contributed a little bit. Nothing compared to seniors and juniors. The incoming 5 are borderline top 100. Best is maybe 90th. We will see but I think the best season is when Scruggs and Marshall are seniors.

[bleedXblue]

I am still upset that he has basically been bolted to the bench up until this past week. I know he was skinny, but I just don't get why he never saw the floor at all last year. Chris Mack did him dirty. Made him basically waste an entire scholarship year. I root for elias because he stuck with us through that bullshit

We had a lot of experience, depth and talent last year. That's why Harden didn't play I'm sure along with him being a frosh and not ready. If he was playing well in practice I am sure he would have seen the floor more. It is what it is at this point........glad he made some shots and glad he's looking and playing more confidently.

[Xuperman]

If he continues to improve there’s no chance he’ll be nudged to transfer. He was our best player against Illinois.

LOL..Best player? In no way, shape or form. He hit some rhythm 3's and that's about it. As far as the possibility of him being "nudged" to transfer, it will come down to Coach Steele, and how he sees his team after Q is gone. Will he want to groom HIS OWN recruits in Kennedy, Tandy and Bishop to side with Scruggs as a senior OR have another SG/Wing in Harden on scholarship in 2020/21? Besides, if Elias doesn't continue to get sufficient minutes, HE might decide to go somewhere he can.....that is typically why underclassmen transfer.

[X Factor]

LOL..Best player? In no way, shape or form. He hit some rhythm 3's and that's about it. As far as the possibility of him being "nudged" to transfer, it will come down to where Coach Steele wants this team to be after Q is gone. Will he want to groom HIS OWN recruits in Kennedy, Tandy and Bishop to side with Scruggs as a senior OR have another SG/Wing in Harden on scholarship in 2020/21? Besides, if Elias doesn't continue to get sufficient minutes, HE might decide to go somewhere he can.....that is typically why underclassmen transfer.

I'm pretty sure Steele was involved in recruiting Harden.

[bleedXblue]

LOL..Best player? In no way, shape or form. He hit some rhythm 3's and that's about it. As far as the possibility of him being "nudged" to transfer, it will come down to where Coach Steele wants this team to be after Q is gone. Will he want to groom HIS OWN recruits in Kennedy, Tandy and Bishop to side with Scruggs as a senior OR have another SG/Wing in Harden on scholarship in 2020/21? Besides, if Elias doesn't continue to get sufficient minutes, HE might decide to go somewhere he can.....that is typically why underclassmen transfer.

exactly

[Xuperman]

Maybe...Probably, but a Mack recruit officially.....just like Goodin, Jones and Marshall. Speaking of Mack, I really enjoyed seeing him blow it at the end against Marquette! Didn't know Dino Gaudio was a UofL assistant.

[scoscox]

LOL..Best player? In no way, shape or form. He hit some rhythm 3's and that's about it. As far as the possibility of him being "nudged" to transfer, it will come down to Coach Steele, and how he sees his team after Q is gone. Will he want to groom HIS OWN recruits in Kennedy, Tandy and Bishop to side with Scruggs as a senior OR have another SG/Wing in Harden on scholarship in 2020/21? Besides, if Elias doesn't continue to get sufficient minutes, HE might decide to go somewhere he can.....that is typically why underclassmen transfer.

It was a little tongue in cheek, but also not outlandish to say the second leading scorer and by far the most efficient player in the game was our best player. I don't see why Travis would want him to transfer. There's room on the roster. Also, Travis seems to be giving him a lot of minutes and has said great things about him to the press. I don't think he dislikes him the way Mack did. He could very well decide to transfer, but that seems unlikely if he continues to get opportunities.

[scoscox]

I think Elias might just be a better game player than practice player

[xukeith]

I am happy for Hardin but seriously, he wasn't on the scouting report, was very fresh as all other players played 3rd game in 3 days. He had 0 rebounds but Kennedy had more. He is a shooter. Maybe he woke up. I think he had to play to spell players.

[xu82]

I am happy for Hardin but seriously, he wasn't on the scouting report, was very fresh as all other players played 3rd game in 3 days. He had 0 rebounds but Kennedy had more. He is a shooter. Maybe he woke up. I think he had to play to spell players.

Let’s see what happens. Brady only played because Bledsoe got hurt! :-)

[scoscox]

This is the first time he has played more than 1 or two possessions in a game and people are so quick to write him off. There's a reason he was a 4 star recruit. he might have some talent people

He and Kennedy played because Welage was not playing well and they both played well. That's a very good sign for us.

[noteggs]

Think it’s a little early to talk about who’s leaving the program this year. Harden after last season sure...

If Harden continues to pick up the defense (still somewhat of a liability) he is going to be a regular or key contributor in the rotation. The kid finally looks like he’s having fun.

For Kennedy, as a freshman he is best defensive option off the bench at his position which has been decent (yes needs to improve) and his length is a big plus. Steele would not play him over 20 something plus minutes last game if he’s not. At this point, Kennedy’s scoring is a luxury. The way he communicates on the court tells me he understands his current role and scheme.

[GIMMFD]

Think it’s a little early to talk about who’s leaving the program this year. Harden after last season sure...

If Harden continues to pick up the defense (still somewhat of a liability) he is going to be a regular or key contributor in the rotation. The kid finally looks like he’s having fun.

For Kennedy, as a freshman he is best defensive option off the bench at his position which has been decent (yes needs to improve) and his length is a big plus. Steele would not play him over 20 something plus minutes last game if he’s not. At this point, Kennedy’s scoring is a luxury. The way he communicates on the court tells me he understands his current role and scheme.

Our biggest quip is defense because nobody is playing it at a good level save Hankins and he's still got a little bit of learning curve, Harden has the ability to earn minutes, he has the body type, and his 3 point shooting is greatly needed if he can continue to shoot well. I think he will work his way into the rotation, but I just need our guys to get it together defensively. I think Kennedy is basically there to just spell for a little bit at a time, but if he's scoring then Steele will give him a bit longer run out there. We're very young and inexperienced, so a lot of the beginning of this season will be experimentation. Both of these guys have potential to contribute, and if they work their asses off, they will get the opportunities. We'll see how they respond to the challenge moving forward.

[bleedXblue]

Our biggest quip is defense because nobody is playing it at a good level save Hankins and he's still got a little bit of learning curve, Harden has the ability to earn minutes, he has the body type, and his 3 point shooting is greatly needed if he can continue to shoot well. I think he will work his way into the rotation, but I just need our guys to get it together defensively. I think Kennedy is basically there to just spell for a little bit at a time, but if he's scoring then Steele will give him a bit longer run out there. We're very young and inexperienced, so a lot of the beginning of this season will be experimentation. Both of these guys have potential to contribute, and if they work their asses off, they will get the opportunities. We'll see how they respond to the challenge moving forward.

Does Hankins playing good D include rebounding the ball? B/c he is not a great rebounder by any stretch........

[scoscox]

Our biggest quip is defense because nobody is playing it at a good level save Hankins and he's still got a little bit of learning curve, Harden has the ability to earn minutes, he has the body type, and his 3 point shooting is greatly needed if he can continue to shoot well. I think he will work his way into the rotation, but I just need our guys to get it together defensively. I think Kennedy is basically there to just spell for a little bit at a time, but if he's scoring then Steele will give him a bit longer run out there. We're very young and inexperienced, so a lot of the beginning of this season will be experimentation. Both of these guys have potential to contribute, and if they work their asses off, they will get the opportunities. We'll see how they respond to the challenge moving forward.

Hankins pick and roll defense has been horrific and one of our biggest problems. Kennedy has been really good defensively and I think Harden has been pretty solid for the most part. I'm sure thats one of the reasons they're seeing minutes over welage

[xukeith]

Think it’s a little early to talk about who’s leaving the program this year. Harden after last season sure...

If Harden continues to pick up the defense (still somewhat of a liability)

Who has picked up the defense? Bueller??

[GIMMFD]

Does Hankins playing good D include rebounding the ball? B/c he is not a great rebounder by any stretch........

Eh depends on what you take it as, I wasn't including rebounding into good defense, you're right though he's not a great rebounder.


Hankins pick and roll defense has been horrific and one of our biggest problems. Kennedy has been really good defensively and I think Harden has been pretty solid for the most part. I'm sure thats one of the reasons they're seeing minutes over welage

The pick and roll defense is bad, but he brings an element of rim protection, I used "good" pretty loosely I believe, because nobody is playing "good" defense in the traditional sense of the word, but for the entire team, I like Hankins shot blocking abilities and find it helpful. Definitely right about Kennedy and Harden, they have the athletic traits and length, and I feel that they'll only continue to develop. If they can start knocking down shots consistently and stay hot, it'll bring an extra dimension to this team we so badly need.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

We must not be watching the same games because Hankins pink and roll defense is way ahead of Tyrique’s. Tyrique legitimately gets his feet (and eyes) stuck in mud when he tries to hedge. At least Hankins seems to know where he’s supposed to ultimately end up when defending the pick and roll.

[XfansinKy]

Elias Harden was half of the best high school back court in the country. It's not like he's some kid that chose X because no other good programs recruited him. He's also a better shooter from 15-18 feet than a lot of us realized. Wouldn't be surprised if that tournament is the confidence boost he needed to settle in and start playing like he belongs. Whether you like him or not, he's got a beautiful jump shot, especially for a long armed kid at 6'5 - 6'6.

[bleedXblue]

Elias Harden was half of the best high school back court in the country. It's not like he's some kid that chose X because no other good programs recruited him. He's also a better shooter from 15-18 feet than a lot of us realized. Wouldn't be surprised if that tournament is the confidence boost he needed to settle in and start playing like he belongs. Whether you like him or not, he's got a beautiful jump shot, especially for a long armed kid at 6'5 - 6'6.

exactly. Harden can play.........he just needed some time on the floor and an opportunity

[GIMMFD]

Elias Harden was half of the best high school back court in the country. It's not like he's some kid that chose X because no other good programs recruited him. He's also a better shooter from 15-18 feet than a lot of us realized. Wouldn't be surprised if that tournament is the confidence boost he needed to settle in and start playing like he belongs. Whether you like him or not, he's got a beautiful jump shot, especially for a long armed kid at 6'5 - 6'6.

Not to mention played AAU also with that freak of a animal Zion Williamson.. I have nothing against him, in fact I admire him for sitting through last year when he could have been redshirted instead of thrown into games for 2 minutes of mop up duty, but you're right, he has potential, he was a good prospect coming out of high school, so hopefully he can find his groove and contribute for us this season. It's promising to see him shooting well.

[scoscox]

We must not be watching the same games because Hankins pink and roll defense is way ahead of Tyrique’s. Tyrique legitimately gets his feet (and eyes) stuck in mud when he tries to hedge. At least Hankins seems to know where he’s supposed to ultimately end up when defending the pick and roll.

I didn't say Tyrique's was good either. His is also bad, but the original statement referred to hankins. I'd prefer both be better

[xukeith]

Who has played the best defense through 6 games? Now that is a poll question.

[XfansinKy]

Naji Marshall

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Who has played the best defense through 6 games? Now that is a poll question.

That is easy: ________________________________

[Caf]

Who has played the best defense through 6 games? Now that is a poll question.

I don't think you can make it anyone who has played on the perimeter. For that reason alone I'll go with Jones.

[XUFan09]

Naji MarshallPlays off his man way too much so far and overall has lacked intensity for a majority of minutes played. The Auburn and Illinois games included better intensity, and over-helping off his man was less of an issue against Illinois than in previous games, so there's signs of improvement. Still, Naji has not been good defensively when he should be a great defender.

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[GIMMFD]

Who has played the best defense through 6 games? Now that is a poll question.

Uhh the Blue Blob?

[noteggs]

Plays off his man way too much so far and overall has lacked intensity for a majority of minutes played. The Auburn and Illinois games included better intensity, and over-helping off his man was less of an issue against Illinois than in previous games, so there's signs of improvement. Still, Naji has not been good defensively when he should be a great defender.

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Like your statement. Curious tho, do you think it’s Naji’s lack of intensity or his own lack of confidence in new defensive system? Not to say he doesn’t believe in system, but is he more hesitant in his decision making because it’s new for him? Of course we can throw out the first game for him being sick.

[XUFan09]

Like your statement. Curious tho, do you think it’s Naji’s lack of intensity or his own lack of confidence in new defensive system? Not to say he doesn’t believe in system, but is he more hesitant in his decision making because it’s new for him? Of course we can throw out the first game for him being sick.The system isn't much different from last year, and I don't think it's a confidence thing. Both Naji and a lot of other guys have had issues with focus.

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[xukeith]

I think most of our recruits have been playing street ball and easily beating one on one for their 6th grade-12 grade competition. It is difficult to untrain their conditioned brain to pass and play team defense as they have never done it before.
Maybe it all sinks in as they are juniors.

[xukeith]

Remember this guy:

"Without enough college credit to enter Xavier University with the rest of this year's basketball recruit class, Charles Bronson is at his third college in three years - this time in Oklahoma. And he's biding his time until he can sign another letter of intent with the Musketeers and regain his spot on next year's team.

For now, the 6-foot-10 Philadelphia native waits.

"I'm not being recruited by anybody else," said Bronson, who will play this season at Redlands Community College in El Reno, Okla. "I liked it so much when I was being recruited (by XU). I liked it when I went down there for the first time. I had a good relationship with coach (Sean) Miller and (assistant coach Chris) Mack. I want to be there."

Until this past summer, he thought he'd be at XU this season with three years of eligibility remaining. But in August, Miller announced Bronson wouldn't be attending XU this season. The scenario left Bronson, who played at Panola (Texas) Junior College last year and at East Carolina the year before that, frustrated."

[Muskie4106]

Plays off his man way too much so far and overall has lacked intensity for a majority of minutes played. The Auburn and Illinois games included better intensity, and over-helping off his man was less of an issue against Illinois than in previous games, so there's signs of improvement. Still, Naji has not been good defensively when he should be a great defender.

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Could not agree more. In my opinion has been very "lazy" and the worse off ball defender on the team so far. Great scorer and has potential to be a great defender. Just have not seen it

[XfansinKy]

I didn't realize until I read today that Tyrique is the best offensive rebounder in the country and isn't far from averaging a double double with 12.5 and 8.5

[RyanblockXU]

This maybe a bit of a hot take but IMO Xavier's defensive issues are more centered around culture.


These recruits are picking Xavier because of the offensive system and the freedom it allows for them to score. I just don't think there are many guys on this team that take pride in defending. A response to our guys getting dunked on is to do the same thing to them on the other end, however it is not to try and lock them down.


Defense is all about effort, focus and intensity. Are you willing to defend your ass off even when the shots stop falling? or do your offensive struggles turn into defensive apathy?

Naji will miss a wide open 3 pointer and then proceed to let his man blow by him on defense. Like, I could pull up some of the most embarrassing defensive possessions of the year and most include Naji Marshall who clearly has a James Harden like Approach to defense.


Thats the thing about the thing about Defense, you have to want to be great at all. Look at the team across town, they can roll out a 12 man rotation of 3 star scrubs that no one wanted and can't shoot for the life of them, and yet, because their culture is to defend, they will be a top 10 defense, no matter who the personnel is. Xavier has players who have elite defensive capability and yet has zero desire to be great defenders.



Lots of time to turn it around tho. But no amount of coaching is going to make them a great defense. its got to come from them.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

This maybe a bit of a hot take but IMO Xavier's defensive issues are more centered around culture.


These recruits are picking Xavier because of the offensive system and the freedom it allows for them to score. I just don't think there are many guys on this team that take pride in defending. A response to our guys getting dunked on is to do the same thing to them on the other end, however it is not to try and lock them down.


Defense is all about effort, focus and intensity. Are you willing to defend your ass off even when the shots stop falling? or do your offensive struggles turn into defensive apathy?

Naji will miss a wide open 3 pointer and then proceed to let his man blow by him on defense. Like, I could pull up some of the most embarrassing defensive possessions of the year and most include Naji Marshall who clearly has a James Harden like Approach to defense.


Thats the thing about the thing about Defense, you have to want to be great at all. Look at the team across town, they can roll out a 12 man rotation of 3 star scrubs that no one wanted and can't shoot for the life of them, and yet, because their culture is to defend, they will be a top 10 defense, no matter who the personnel is. Xavier has players who have elite defensive capability and yet has zero desire to be great defenders.



Lots of time to turn it around tho. But no amount of coaching is going to make them a great defense. its got to come from them.


This. Yes. Absolutely. You look at the length and foot speed of Q, Paul, Naji, and the rest (really anyone outside of Welage), and this team should be good defensively. I think it stems from Mack's lack of emphasis on the defensive side of the ball, which rubbed off on guys throughout his tenure. If coach doesn't stress it (mainly because we keep winning, circa 2015-16 and last year), then why should I bust my ass to focus and play.

Clarification: Xavier in 2015-16 was 22nd in Kenpom D, but we played a ton of 1-3-1 that year, and the point of the post is to point that Mack really didn't seem to care if Xavier gave up 85 points as long as they won.

[bleedXblue]

Could not agree more. In my opinion has been very "lazy" and the worse off ball defender on the team so far. Great scorer and has potential to be a great defender. Just have not seen it

Has Naji ever owned the gold jersey?

[MHettel]

Remember this guy:

"Without enough college credit to enter Xavier University with the rest of this year's basketball recruit class, Charles Bronson is at his third college in three years - this time in Oklahoma. And he's biding his time until he can sign another letter of intent with the Musketeers and regain his spot on next year's team.

For now, the 6-foot-10 Philadelphia native waits.

"I'm not being recruited by anybody else," said Bronson, who will play this season at Redlands Community College in El Reno, Okla. "I liked it so much when I was being recruited (by XU). I liked it when I went down there for the first time. I had a good relationship with coach (Sean) Miller and (assistant coach Chris) Mack. I want to be there."

Until this past summer, he thought he'd be at XU this season with three years of eligibility remaining. But in August, Miller announced Bronson wouldn't be attending XU this season. The scenario left Bronson, who played at Panola (Texas) Junior College last year and at East Carolina the year before that, frustrated."

Yeah. and it's relevant how?

[XUFan09]

Has Naji ever owned the gold jersey?Nearly positive he has.

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[Caf]

Could not agree more. In my opinion has been very "lazy" and the worse off ball defender on the team so far. Great scorer and has potential to be a great defender. Just have not seen it

I always get a good laugh when people chalk up bad performance to laziness, culture, lack of a leader etc. This is especially true when it comes to defense since we're a program that hasn't emphasized or been great at defense for the better part of a decade. This is even more true when you talk about Naji Marshall who is a Sophomore and might be our most important player. Naji has taken on an enormously out-sized role this year. He leads the team in defensive rebounds and minutes played even after starting the year off sick.

Could he be better? Sure. Is he lazy? Get real.

[XUFan09]

I always get a good laugh when people chalk up bad performance to laziness, culture, lack of a leader etc. This is especially true when it comes to defense since we're a program that hasn't emphasized or been great at defense for the better part of a decade. This is even more true when you talk about Naji Marshall who is a Sophomore and might be our most important player. Naji has taken on an enormously out-sized role this year. He leads the team in defensive rebounds and minutes played even after starting the year off sick.

Could he be better? Sure. Is he lazy? Get real.Yeah, the defense is an issue of focus and excessive risk-taking, not laziness. For example, a player over-helps because he's hoping to get a steal or disrupt the drive/post-up, not because he's slacking off.

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[MITTENMUSKIE16]

A lack of focus shows laziness, no?

[XUFan09]

A lack of focus shows laziness, no?No. That's a conflation of two different things.

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[Xville]

Yeah, the defense is an issue of focus and excessive risk-taking, not laziness. For example, a player over-helps because he's hoping to get a steal or disrupt the drive/post-up, not because he's slacking off.

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It's all of the above...some players cant or wont defend because they are lazy and it's not as glamorous as offense. I dont know for sure in regards to naji but defending takes a crap ton of effort and is exhausting both mentally and physically...some players just dont want to.

[RyanblockXU]

If you want to see Laziness; literally just pull up Naji Marshall's defensive possessions. I'm not joking when I say they are James Harden like


In fact, swiping at the ball is lazy defense. You guard with your feet not your hands. It takes much more effort to stay in front of your man than it does to simply provide the path of least resistance to the offensive player.


Other guys at X have been just beaten even with effort and Paul Scruggs generally always gives effort. But Naji, not so much. When un-athletic white kids are taking you to the rim and you don't even jump to contest the shot or even have your feet moving enough to meet them at the rim, its laziness. or its IDGAF or its lack of focus. What ever it is you choose to call it. It's all about not wanting to exert effort on that size of the ball.


It's gotten a little better with Naji but the numbers show he is a dreadful defender.


How bad of a defender is Naji then? Well according to the numbers he's worse than 88% of all D1 players.

In fact, there isn't an aspect of his defense that he has been good at. Not jump shot defense, not dribble penetration. Not around the rim. Not covering screens and pick & rollls. Literally is Below Average or Worse at everything.



So... If your 6'7, very athletic, long arms and move really really well, then what is your excuse for your bad defense other than not giving a poop about it. Naji's offensive opponents are getting 1.11 points per possession when he guards them. Meanwhile, he isn't making it up on offense either... As on that side of the ball, he is getting just .75 ppp

He is a minus player to this point. I'd have never thought that would be the case before the season started and the way he talked about being snubbed on twitter for preseason awards, made me think he would come out laser focused and would be a 2 and done player.




the bright side is: Naji has been at his worse and we've still managed to be competitive. BUT we need him to be an all league player on both sides of the ball if we're going to make any noise. BUT as of today, by the numbers, he one of our worst players on the floor (that 19 to 18 assist to turnover number is bad too).

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

I don’t think that’s conflating the two. For instance, player A has a bunch of physical capabilities that would make him a great defender, but he lacks the ability to focus for 30 seconds at a time. Player B has fundamental flaws physically, but focuses on an assignment, and does it to the best of his ability.


An inability to focus on one end of the floor, despite your capabilities, shows a bit of laziness IMO. Focus does not take any ability, but mental strength and effort. Anyone can focus if they commit to it. Either choosing not to focus or not being capable of focusing shows laziness.

Naji, Paul, and Q aren’t necessarily lazy physically. But I think Q/Hankins have said as much that the team lose focus too ofteb, which to me is a correctable thing with effort.

[XUFan09]

Effort is necessary for good focus, but it is not sufficient, as focus most definitely requires ability. It's a skill just like so many other things. Some people have a stronger ability to focus on a task that others, plain and simple. Like any ability, it can be be improved with practice and experience, though. Naji at his best is intense and more focused than most, but it will take practice/experience and the discipline that comes with it to make that a more consistent thing. It was probably easier to maintain focus when his role was smaller last year. Concerning the discipline from experience, the consequences of inattentiveness seems to have been a wakeup call after that SDSU game, as he and the team in general were much more attentive against Illinois.

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[XUFan09]

It's all of the above...some players cant or wont defend because they are lazy and it's not as glamorous as offense. I dont know for sure in regards to naji but defending takes a crap ton of effort and is exhausting both mentally and physically...some players just dont want to.

You know, as I think of it, you're right. There have definitely been issues of effort with Naji. Acting like it's all about effort is wrong, but the problems with effort contribute to the overall issues.

[RyanblockXU]

Effort is necessary for good focus, but it is not sufficient, as focus most definitely requires ability. It's a skill just like so many other things. Some people have a stronger ability to focus on a task that others, plain and simple. Like any ability, it can be be improved with practice and experience, though. Naji at his best is intense and more focused than most, but it will take practice/experience and the discipline that comes with it to make that a more consistent thing. It was probably easier to maintain focus when his role was smaller last year. Concerning the discipline from experience, the consequences of inattentiveness seems to have been a wakeup call after that SDSU game, as he and the team in general were much more attentive against Illinois.

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IF we're being honest, the defensive wasn't all that good against an undisciplined team like Illinois.


We won that game with rebounding, and getting our offense to click.

Illinois still scored a point per possession. They still made 11 3's at a 48% clip. They missed a lot of shots at the rim that they shouldn't have however we did defend the paint pretty well, but thats never really been our issue.


Perimeter defense was still an issue. They only difference is; Illinois wasn't good enough to beat us despite that.


I'm not going hang my hat on that performance. They only thing different about that game and others is that we won and we did it because we shared the ball and took much better shots.

[XUFan09]

IF we're being honest, the defensive wasn't all that good against an undisciplined team like Illinois.


We won that game with rebounding, and getting our offense to click.

Illinois still scored a point per possession. They still made 11 3's at a 48% clip. They missed a lot of shots at the rim that they shouldn't have however we did defend the paint pretty well, but thats never really been our issue.


Perimeter defense was still an issue. They only difference is; Illinois wasn't good enough to beat us despite that.


I'm not going hang my hat on that performance. They only thing different about that game and others is that we won and we did it because we shared the ball and took much better shots.I'm not saying the defense was great in that performance, but I don't think effort and focus were the major issues, which is different from previous games. The ball screen defense was the major issue there (together with some instances of over-helping that were at least less common than before). Illinois' handoff screen with the guard cutting to the hoop as he receives the ball was a tricky action to cover, and the team was inconsistent in communication and execution. Still, it wasn't a bad defensive performance; Illinois got a decent number of their points, including threes, off turnovers and second shots from offensive rebounds.

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[GoMuskies]

They only thing different about that game and others is that we won and we did it because we shared the ball and took much better shots.

That and because Illinois is kinda shitty.

[bleedXblue]

That and because Illinois is kinda shitty.

They came very close to knocking off ND last night for what it is worth...........but agree they will be at best middle of he road in the Big 10

[Xuperman]

I might be the only one here, but I will continue to say Harden is not good. Apparently all he can contribute is rainbow 3's. He has a grand total of THREE rebounds and 1 assist in 83 minutes. Has only two made 2 pointers in 23 FGA. Kennedy is clearly outplaying him and should see more floor time over Elias going forward.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Harden took two longer threes and one wide open he should have hit. Harden is still playing like a freshman. I don’t think he is bad, he just didn’t improve.


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[paulxu]

I'm not going back to check, but I'd wager it's been a long time since we've had a game with only 3 TO's.
I'm constantly at a loss for words when I see sloppy play, and sloppy passes that result in TO's.
So, I'm going to assume Steele has cracked down on this aspect of the game with very good results.
We'll see as time goes by.

[XMuskieFTW]

I might be the only one here, but I will continue to say Harden is not good. Apparently all he can contribute is rainbow 3's. He has a grand total of THREE rebounds and 1 assist in 83 minutes. Has only two made 2 pointers in 23 FGA. Kennedy is clearly outplaying him and should see more floor time over Elias going forward.

He has played decent defense. Also saying he has two made 2 pointers in 23 FGAs without mentioning the 8 made threes in those 23 FGAs makes no sense. He's 2-6 from 2 and 8-17 from 3. He has scored 29 points on 23 shots which is solid for a bench player. I think overall he's been fine. Kennedy is better defensively and has more upside offensively. He's already been consistently playing more minutes than Elias and will most likely continue to do so. I'm more interested in whether or not Welage can win back a lot of the minutes he lost to Kennedy and Elias.

[bleedXblue]

This team has a lot of pieces that Steele hasn't figured out how to put together yet. I love Hankins and Jones being able to rotate in and out at the 5. We have a good 3 point shooter that is 7-8th on the depth chart.........and we will need him this year b/c he's such a great weapon. I see Kennedy emerging and getting more minutes than Harden b/c I think he brings us a little bit more diversity in his game. It would be great is he could knock down some 3's at a decent clip.......

This team has the talent and parts/pieces to be pretty good come Feb/March. It will be interesting to see how Steel and his staff figures out the right rotation and minutes for everyone going forward.

[muskienick]

I agree that the 3 turnover performance by the Muskies last night was outstanding. I noted that Coach Steele said that was the best 40 minutes played by the team so far this season and I agree with that as well. The fact that Q had none of those three turnovers is a credit to him as our primary point guard. However, I felt, overall, that his ball-handling was actually rather sloppy, probably caused by his opposing defender(s) being a bit more quick and "handsy" than he is. I was also not particularly pleased with some of his shot selections, especially the taking of an NBA-range three point shot very early in a position! On the other hand, I believe Q had a much better defensive game than those in the recent past which was not easy considering the quickness of the guy he was usually guarding.

Back to Coach's reference to the Miami game being a solid 40-minute performance, I'd say that it was actually closer to a solid 32- to 33-minute performance. But, damn, I (and my blood pressure) will take that over our earlier games so far this year!

[Xuperman]

He has played decent defense. Also saying he has two made 2 pointers in 23 FGAs without mentioning the 8 made threes in those 23 FGAs makes no sense.

I phrased it that way to highlight his lack of ability to score in different ways. I fear he will become painfully predictable for the opposition if he doesn't begin to add something other than spot up 3's. At this point, he is as one dimensional as one can get. 3 rebounds and 1 assist? 1/4 from the line? Take away those 7 in rhythm 3's in 30 minutes and you have basically 54 minutes of PT with no contribution at all.

[Muskie]

Last night was evidence that this team might be on the verge of coming together a bit. I didn't realize they really only practiced as a full squad for the first time in Hawaii.

[xudash]

I'm not going back to check, but I'd wager it's been a long time since we've had a game with only 3 TO's.
I'm constantly at a loss for words when I see sloppy play, and sloppy passes that result in TO's.
So, I'm going to assume Steele has cracked down on this aspect of the game with very good results.
We'll see as time goes by.

Paul, I think I read that it last took place in '04 or '03 - - a looong time ago.

Granted it was Miami, but they just looked like they had their act together last night.

I agree with Nick that they at least played a solid almost 35 minutes of basketball, so the message seems to be getting through to them on that score.

What I really like about this team and what gives me real hope for this team, and this was pointed out by the announcers last night, is that they really seem to like and pull for each other. The chemistry piece for this version of Xavier basketball appears to be in very good shape.

[noteggs]

I completely agree with the diversity of Kennedy. Think he guarded 1, 2, and 3 last night with 2 steals. Did get beat off the dribble a few times but for the most part held his own. As for offense, I saw him play completely different when Q and Naji were out of the game and was very aggressive going to the rim. Guess his role is different when there’re in but he showed me something different that I really like. Seems like he stole a lot minutes yesterday from different players since he played the 3rd most. Grant it, Paul did pick some early fouls.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I think the 2-3 rushed 3 pointers Q attempted early should count as turnovers, but even with those they were at 5-6 for the game. That is a great game for them and against a Miami team that at least tried to apply pressure.

Harden may not be Big East talent yet, but I see flashes of decent play. I think people forget that though he is just a true sophomore. Does anyone know how old Kennedy is? Is he like Marshall/Scruggs and one year older then their class?

[XUFan09]

I phrased it that way to highlight his lack of ability to score in different ways. I fear he will become painfully predictable for the opposition if he doesn't begin to add something other than spot up 3's. At this point, he is as one dimensional as one can get. 3 rebounds and 1 assist? 1/4 from the line? Take away those 7 in rhythm 3's in 30 minutes and you have basically 54 minutes of PT with no contribution at all.

Harden's role on the team as a guy off the bench is to be a three-point shooter that stretches the floor. So, you are complaining that he is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing.

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[bleedXblue]

Harden's role on the team as a guy off the bench is to be a three-point shooter that stretches the floor. So, you are complaining that he is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing.

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Yeah, but he can also mix in a little bit more of his game...if there is any of course. Also, the rebounding and assist piece cant be brushed off either.......

[Xuperman]

Harden's role on the team as a guy off the bench is to be a three-point shooter that stretches the floor. So, you are complaining that he is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing.

Well if that's his role, you might be the first to label him as such. I have seen a lot of coach Steele interviews and don't recall him saying anything close. Coach has referred to Welage as that guy though.

[XUFan09]

Well if that's his role, you're the first to label him as such. I have seen a lot of coach Steele interviews and don't recall him saying anything close. Welage is that guy though.Because it's pretty obvious that his role is that. If he gets more minutes and a higher usage rate, he has the opportunity to be more dynamic, but right now, it's limited. Yes, Welage has that role, but Harden (and Kennedy) can take some of Welage's minutes because of the ability to cover much of the same role.

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[XMuskieFTW]

Well if that's his role, you're the first to label him as such. I have seen a lot of coach Steele interviews and don't recall him saying anything close. Coach has referred to Welage as that guy though.

That's the exact reason we recruited him. He was the shooter brought in that class to compliment Scruggs and Naji's games.

[GoMuskies]

Harden has a pretty nice handle. He's definitely physically capable of making some plays other than shooting standstill jumpers.

[XUFan09]

Yeah, but he can also mix in a little bit more of his game...if there is any of course. Also, the rebounding and assist piece cant be brushed off either.......With time, he and Kennedy can add to their games. As of right now, though, they have usage rates of 15% and 10%, respectively, and neither is even playing 20 minutes per game. It's hard to assert more than the most basic role with that.

Rebounding can improve too, but this will be affected by responsibilities when a shot is taken. Neither guy has recorded an offensive rebound, but with Scruggs being a great rebounder from the guard spot, both are probably told to wait for a kickout for a three or get back on D. On the defensive end, they are likely told the flip side of that: Guard their man on the perimeter or start running out for transition three opportunities. What the responsibility is would likely be situational, based on who is likely to get the rebound.

Assists are going to be limited when you have Q and Scruggs on the floor together handling the ball much of the time. Harden has only 1, but Kennedy also has only recorded 1 since the Evansville game.

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[XUFan09]

That's the exact reason we recruited him. He was the shooter brought in that class to compliment Scruggs and Naji's games.Yep, he was recruited as a scorer who can shoot the three while also having the length and athleticism to defend reasonably well. Kennedy was recruited for the same thing. The most basic role for guys like that is being a 3-and-D guy. From there, they can expand to the scorer's role if they earn the minutes and usage rate.

So far, neither has completely neglected the scorer's role (e.g. Both have attacked defenders off the bounce if they overplay them on the perimeter). However, their responsibility as bench role players is essentially to be that 3-and-D guy.

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[atljar]

Last night was evidence that this team might be on the verge of coming together a bit. I didn't realize they really only practiced as a full squad for the first time in Hawaii.

Can you expand on the practice comment? I havent heard or seen anything along those lines.

[Muskie]

Can you expand on the practice comment? I havent heard or seen anything along those lines.

Steele mentioned on the post-game that until Maui, they hadn't had a full squad practice due to people being sick (Naji) or banged up. He said Hawaii was the first time they had a full-out practice with game-like intensity.

[atljar]

Thank you for the info, I missed post game last night!

[Muskeagle]

I think the worry that Harden is just shooting the 3, is not much of a concern. Sure, if he continues to make them, he will continue to shoot them. IF he continues to shoot them well, the defense will be forced to come out and guard him differently....which will force him to change his game. No reason to change it if it is working. The 6 2pt shots isn't concerning to me at all.

BJ Raymond is often used here on this board to talk about a player who grew from small usage to major contributor in 4 years. His career USED to be the normal, expected arc of a player in college. His scoring went from 3.4, 4.1, 9.9, 14.1 in his four years. Reasonable growth.

Harden happened to be a freshman on a team LOADED with guards who were ALL Time players at X, so I think his freshman year was a little stunted.

Raymond averaged about 1 2pt shot a game for his first two years with more of a reliance on the three (75 2pt shots in 65 games). 2pt/3pt shots for his career: 36/49, 39/80, 82/199, and 160/205. Sophomore and Junior years he shot well over 2 3pt shot for every 1 2pt shot. Senior year, major player, more usage, more attention from defenses and the rate slipped to a little over 1 to 1.

Harden will be fine. He has some handle. He can shoot. If he is forced to adjust, he will adjust. He lost some out on some experience last year, but he is getting better and will emerge as a good contributing player at X.

[xukeith]

How does one calculate the expected Kenpom score for matchups?
First time account subscription and loving all the data.

[XUFan09]

How does one calculate the expected Kenpom score for matchups?
First time account subscription and loving all the data.On the schedule, it lists the predicted score for future games with the predicted number of possessions. It also gives the win probability for the team.

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[xukeith]

On the schedule, it lists the predicted score for future games with the predicted number of possessions. It also gives the win probability for the team.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I understand easily the odds of winning. I am looking for predictions of winning margin. Curious.

[XUFan09]

I understand easily the odds of winning. I am looking for predictions of winning margin. Curious.The predicted score right next to the win probability on the schedule gives you the predicted margin. For example, on the schedule, we have Oakland next. In the row on the schedule for Oakland, it shows we are predicted to win 84-67, so a 17-point margin. Now, if you are asking where to find the predicted margin of past games, I'm not sure. The game flow graph gives the initial probability, but I don't know where you can see the initial score prediction.

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[IM4X]

I agree that the 3 turnover performance by the Muskies last night was outstanding. I noted that Coach Steele said that was the best 40 minutes played by the team so far this season and I agree with that as well. The fact that Q had none of those three turnovers is a credit to him as our primary point guard. However, I felt, overall, that his ball-handling was actually rather sloppy, probably caused by his opposing defender(s) being a bit more quick and "handsy" than he is. I was also not particularly pleased with some of his shot selections, especially the taking of an NBA-range three point shot very early in a position! On the other hand, I believe Q had a much better defensive game than those in the recent past which was not easy considering the quickness of the guy he was usually guarding.

Back to Coach's reference to the Miami game being a solid 40-minute performance, I'd say that it was actually closer to a solid 32- to 33-minute performance. But, damn, I (and my blood pressure) will take that over our earlier games so far this year!

Pretty spot on to the way I feel... including the solid 32 minute performance remark (a good 7-8minutes of sloppy play or players making bad choices). Still, it was encouraging to see them finish strong.

Thought it was good to get the 7th 8th and 9th man some playing time to keep building their confidence through actual playing time, but personally I would have liked to have seen more playing time for James -I just think he might have the biggest up side of the bunch. While Harden can get hot from 3...he is a bit of a streaky shooter who still has a tendency to force quick shots when the smarter choice is to pass.

[GIMMFD]

Steele mentioned on the post-game that until Maui, they hadn't had a full squad practice due to people being sick (Naji) or banged up. He said Hawaii was the first time they had a full-out practice with game-like intensity.

Jesus I never even realized that, pretty crazy to think about, and makes sense why things are such an adjustment period right now, however, I realistically think we will grow and get better as the season moves along, for as bad as we look this early, I think by Big East play we'll be singing a much different tune. The talent is there, we have guys that can compete, it's just finding ways to get it to mesh, and put it all together.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

Was curious about the numbers, so I did a bit of math.

Guys not named Naji or Quentin are collectively shooting 39% on almost 14 threes a game. I'd take that eight days a week.


On the other hand, with Naji and Q factored in, that number drops to 33%.

[Caf]

Was curious about the numbers, so I did a bit of math.

Guys not named Naji or Quentin are collectively shooting 39% on almost 14 threes a game. I'd take that eight days a week.


On the other hand, with Naji and Q factored in, that number drops to 33%.

I'm not very concerned about Naji's 3 pt shooting. We definitely don't need him taking more than 4 per game, but he's not taking poor looks from 3 like Goodin is. Also, his 3 pt shooting seems to fit well in a stellar offensive approach from him so far. He's our leading scorer and shooting 61% from within the arc and is 2nd in assists. That's pretty impressive. If his willingness to take 3s opens up any of his other scoring opportunities I think they're a net benefit.

All of that being said Paul Scruggs needs to be given the green light of all green lights to take shots away from Goodin. Goodin's 24% from 3 and 38% within the arc is anemic and only looking worse as the sample size grows.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

Funny that you mention, I was going to say the same about Naji. Naji's shot is a lot less of a push than last year, and he's capable of making 35%(ish) of his threes. He doesn't take dribble-in, early shot clock ones like Q. He will continue to take open threes off of passes and attack bad closeouts. He will be fine taking 3-4 threes a game.


Q within the arc was BRUTAL freshman year, and honestly, that's what it's looking like now, just on a larger sample size. He needs to improve vastly if this team plans to go anywhere.

Q: .32/.24/.7

Paul: .51/.375/.72

[SemajParlor]

A lot of things to discuss through 8 games but something that shouldn't get lost is how good Paul Scruggs has been. He got into some ticky tack foul trouble last game but has been otherwise very good this year. Nice to see him take a leap. Less than a year ago he looked like a deer in the headlights at Providence. Now I think he's capable of being our best overall player and leader.

[Xuperman]

Q within the arc was BRUTAL freshman year, and honestly, that's what it's looking like now, just on a larger sample size. He needs to improve vastly if this team plans to go anywhere.

Look at it this way. Q led the team in points scored until Naj passed him on Saturday....with 1 LESS game played. He has been a volume shooter BUT, Does anyone really think his percentages will continue stay this low? Of course not.....no where to go but up. He is a very versatile scorer and his best is yet to come. The obvious big concern for him thus far, is that his assist numbers are nowhere near last years. He’s basically our only elite assist guy. No reason he can’t average 7/8 a game.

Also, regardless of what is being said, I think his shoulder is bothering him more than he lets on.

[Caf]

Look at it this way. Q led the team in points scored until Naj passed him on Saturday....with 1 LESS game played.

That doesn't change my view of his game at all. Put another way, he's taken more shots than anyone on the team with 1 less game and is only our 4th leading scorer. And yes I do think his percentages will continue to stay this low if he does not change his shooting volume.

I do agree that his shoulder is probably part of the problem.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

I am fine if Q doesn’t develop a jump shot, as long as he stops taking them at a volume shooter’s rate. What I think most of us are worried about is his inability to finish within 5 feet unless it’s a dunk. Naji and Paul find ways to finish at and around the rim much better than him.

[noteggs]

As for Q

1. If we look at where Q has been this season. Practice started September 26. A week goes by and he’s out with injury. Comes back in November and plays second game of year with minimal time with team.

2. When he drives/shoots and misses, our offense is prepared for this and why Ty gets so many offensive rebounds. What’s been happening , the 5 roles over when Q drives and leaves Ty unchecked to clean up. Those misses I don’t mind

3. He has to get better on 3’s and shot selection from perimeter and reduce the attempts (last few games much better in attempts from outside) IMO. Is it his shoulder or mental? Who knows. Steele said after game Q’s shot looks good in practice. However, it was nice to see him not wearing harness on Saturday.

[XUFan09]

As for Q

1. If we look at where Q has been this season. Practice started September 26. A week goes by and he’s out with injury. Comes back in November and plays second game of year with minimal time with team.

2. When he drives/shoots and misses, our offense is prepared for this and why Ty gets so many offensive rebounds. What’s been happening , the 5 roles over when Q drives and leaves Ty unchecked to clean up. Those misses I don’t mind

3. He has to get better on 3’s and shot selection from perimeter and reduce the attempts (last few games much better in attempts from outside) IMO. Is it his shoulder or mental? Who knows. Steele said after game Q’s shot looks good in practice. However, it was nice to see him not wearing harness on Saturday.

I agree with all of this. Concerning offensive rebounds, there are times where Q or Scruggs would basically throw the ball at the hoop, but it made sense because either it would go in or they could reliably count on Jones/Hankins for the putback.

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[whopper]

I think the contributions of Castin and Welage have been underrated (Hankins has been indispensable.) They have done all that they have been asked and are not going to the NBA but I hope they get to the big dance. It must be tough with the core 4 being a number 1 seed last year, and then knowing that the grads are here for a year, to fully integrate. We will need all 3 to average 25 pos, 8 Reb and play 15-20 minutes a game to have any chance to make the tournament. All the Big East teams look good, even Depaul. It will be fun and we must accept the results. We used to be able to roll the ball on the court and get 12 wins..that day is gone.

[Xuperman]

There doesn't appear to be a lot of optimism here for a stellar season. To repeat as regular season champs is a stretch but cutting the nets at MSG is certainly possible.... why not us? When you look at our players individually, I could argue that 5 have professional level talent in addition to several complimentary pieces. When was the last time we had 5 guys average double digit scoring? We have a 6th that will probably get there as well. This team can score with anyone on our schedule. Now, can a first year HC and staff over achieve and instill the fortitude needed to be champions? Stay tuned.

[bleedXblue]

There doesn't appear to be a lot of optimism here for a stellar season. To repeat as regular season champs is a stretch but cutting the nets at MSG is certainly possible.... why not us? When you look at our players individually, I could argue that 5 have professional level talent in addition to several complimentary pieces. When was the last time we had 5 guys average double digit scoring? We have a 6th that will probably get there as well. This team can score with anyone on our schedule. Now, can a first year HC and staff over achieve and instill the fortitude needed to be champions? Stay tuned.

Agree we could win it all........or finish 7th or 8th

We really need our PG to start playing at a higher level

That doesn't include making a bunch of 3's........handle the ball, be a leader, create shots and finish at the rim

[IM4X]

On a positive note, it’s great to see Scruggs ability to drive and finish. Naji has been finishing nicely too.

On a negative note, it’s a head scratcher as to why Q has regressed so much in that area?

[IM4X]

Agree we could win it all........or finish 7th or 8th
✔️



We really need our PG to start playing at a higher level ✔️


That doesn't include making a bunch of 3's✔️


........handle the ball✔️
be a leader, ✔️
create shots ✔️
and finish at the rim✔️


Nailed it.


I would add that Steele is going to need to be more than a teacher- he’ going to need to crack the whip often with this bunch. Apparently, these players are not the kind of perfectionist who self motivate or are hyper critical at assessing their own shortcomings or their team’s shortcomings. They have some talent but not enough chemistry... they often only use their brains during moments of desperation. They aren’t pushing each other to give maximum effort during games and to be smarter with the ball.


I think Travis is finally getting that he needs to keep lighting a fire under their asses or these guys will sleepwalk their way through every game. If these guys could let it sink in that 3s will start falling more when they all are patient enough pass it around and wait for a better shot to become available. Currently it feels like no one (other than Jones and Hankins) seems to really understand what their role is on the floor and as a result they each seem to think they can be the best 3 point shooter... and unfortunately they all end up trying to prove it by forcing quick bad shots when they get the ball in their hands.

[Xuperman]

Spot on.

[Xuperman]

On a positive note, it’s great to see Scruggs ability to drive and finish. Naji has been finishing nicely too.

On a negative note, it’s a head scratcher as to why Q has regressed so much in that area?

Banners on the Parkway seems to be convinced that he is a bit “gun shy” driving the lane for fear of contact to his shoulder....I agree. Assuming the opposition knows about the shoulder, they most certainly would take some shots at it. That would explain why everyone in the X camp continues to gloss over the status of the injury. Fact is, last year he was going hard to the rim at every opportunity, often with jaw dropping results. He’s obviously not doing that now, instead attempting to score with no contact. This theory should be considered legit until proven otherwise.

[Xville]

There doesn't appear to be a lot of optimism here for a stellar season. To repeat as regular season champs is a stretch but cutting the nets at MSG is certainly possible.... why not us? When you look at our players individually, I could argue that 5 have professional level talent in addition to several complimentary pieces. When was the last time we had 5 guys average double digit scoring? We have a 6th that will probably get there as well. This team can score with anyone on our schedule. Now, can a first year HC and staff over achieve and instill the fortitude needed to be champions? Stay tuned.

I certainly appreciate the optimism but based on what the team has shown so far, I think it is more realistic to see a 17-18 win team. This team doesnt play defense or have the outside shooting it is going to take to win many true road games. I think the future is bright, but I cant see this team getting it done against be competition consistently even with it presumably being a bit of a down year.

[Xuperman]

I certainly appreciate the optimism but based on what the team has shown so far, I think it is more realistic to see a 17-18 win team.

A case could be made that what the team has shown so far is reason for optimism. We take #8 to OT. No shame in fighting #12 down to the wire and we blew the doors off a very good SDSU team before brain farting away a 19pt trouncing. I think several of our guys were way to cocky early on, causing us to surrender some big leads but they have touched the “hot stove” and should not make that mistake again. Coach Steele seems to be a little wobbly out of the gate but that too should pass. BTW, if that guy from Oakland is not Horizon POY i’ll eat my hat!

[xudash]

A case could be made that what the team has shown so far is reason for optimism. We take #8 to OT. No shame in fighting #12 down to the wire and we blew the doors off a very good SDSU team before brain farting away a 19pt trouncing. I think several of our guys were way to cocky early on, causing us to surrender some big leads but they have touched the “hot stove” and should not make that mistake again. Coach Steele seems to be a little wobbly out of the gate but that too should pass. BTW, if that guy from Oakland is not Horizon POY i’ll eat my hat!

Perhaps overall, but he wasn't wobbly at all when Fox zoomed in on him during a time out during the Oakland game, showing him very red faced and pissed off while letting the team have it.

I believe he will prove to be our best coach yet.

I also believe these guys will continue to gell and have a pretty good year. Yes, we are going to take our lumps, but I sense steady progress on the way to a relatively strong finish.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

I believe he will prove to be our best coach yet.


Based on what? That is crazy-high expectations for a guy less than 10 games into his coaching career.

[drudy23]

It hasn't been coincidence or luck that we've hired successful coaches. We're the only game in town and the university knows basketball is its cash cow. And they provide all the necessary resources to the head coach to ensure success.

Steele will be successful. Will he get us to the F4? That I can't be sure, mostly because I'm not convinced consistent 4 and 5 stars will come to a small private Catholic college in the middle of the Midwest.

[xukeith]

It hasn't been coincidence or luck that we've hired successful coaches. We're the only game in town and the university knows basketball is its cash cow. And they provide all the necessary resources to the head coach to ensure success.

Steele will be successful. Will he get us to the F4? That I can't be sure, mostly because I'm not convinced consistent 4 and 5 stars will come to a small private Catholic college in the middle of the Midwest.

I don't think X will get 5 stars unless it sneaks its way to the Elite 8 3 straight years.

If X gets all 40-100 ranked players, X will be top 10 in the country regularly. NCAA is all about matchups

[scoscox]

It hasn't been coincidence or luck that we've hired successful coaches. We're the only game in town and the university knows basketball is its cash cow. And they provide all the necessary resources to the head coach to ensure success.

Steele will be successful. Will he get us to the F4? That I can't be sure, mostly because I'm not convinced consistent 4 and 5 stars will come to a small private Catholic college in the middle of the Midwest.

We're getting four stars pretty consistently at this point. The five stars will come if we keep winning. Odom is a borderline five star.

[Xville]

We're getting four stars pretty consistently at this point. The five stars will come if we keep winning. Odom is a borderline five star.

Nm

[XU 87]

It hasn't been coincidence or luck that we've hired successful coaches. We're the only game in town and the university knows basketball is its cash cow. And they provide all the necessary resources to the head coach to ensure success.

Steele will be successful. Will he get us to the F4? That I can't be sure, mostly because I'm not convinced consistent 4 and 5 stars will come to a small private Catholic college in the middle of the Midwest.

X gets plenty of 4 star recruits.

Question- were any of the Nova guys who went pro last year a 5 star recruit? (I don't know the answer.)

Gonzaga two years ago- were any of those guys 5 star recruits? (Again, I don't know, but I don't think so, and if someone else could do my research for me...)

I think the only 4 star recruit on the two Butler teams was Howard.

[XUFan09]

X gets plenty of 4 star recruits.

Question- were any of the Nova guys who went pro last year a 5 star recruit? (I don't know the answer.)



Jalen Brunson and Omari Spellman.

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[scoscox]

X gets plenty of 4 star recruits.

Question- were any of the Nova guys who went pro last year a 5 star recruit? (I don't know the answer.)

Gonzaga two years ago- were any of those guys 5 star recruits? (Again, I don't know, but I don't think so, and if someone else could do my research for me...)

I think the only 4 star recruit on the two Butler teams was Howard.

I don't think so. Zach Collins was just outside the fringe of being a five star iirc. The Butler teams are the best example of doing more with less.

Yes, Spellman and Brunson were both five stars, but for some reason Nova had a reputation for being less talented than the other elite teams.

[XU 87]

Per my internet research, Collins was a 4 or 5 star depending on the site. He was also McD All-American, the first such recruit in Gonzaga history. Gonzaga also had, as of 2016, 3 five stars transfer to the school.

[IM4X]

Banners on the Parkway seems to be convinced that he is a bit “gun shy” driving the lane for fear of contact to his shoulder....I agree. Assuming the opposition knows about the shoulder, they most certainly would take some shots at it. That would explain why everyone in the X camp continues to gloss over the status of the injury. Fact is, last year he was going hard to the rim at every opportunity, often with jaw dropping results. He’s obviously not doing that now, instead attempting to score with no contact. This theory should be considered legit until proven otherwise.

You know, now that I think of it, it makes sense. I do remember several times (while he was driving), it looked as if he was trying to keep that left side away from any contact as he released the ball.

[Xuperman]

If true, we can forget about him being an effective scorer AND his assist numbers will suffer. Driving hard to the rack is what he does....he’s not/nor has been a 3 point guy. If true, and other teams can see it on film, they will look to “bump” it at every chance. A few people here, that have had a shoulder separation, say it takes forever to heal 100%.

[Xuperman]

It is always very interesting to re-read threads like this as the season progresses....it says a lot about the views of our fellow posters. After last nights EKU game, the Q’s shoulder theory can be put to bed. Looks like he’s getting close to 100%, the week off seems to have helped. He had a FANTASTIC game last night flirting with the rare “steals” triple/double. Anyone notice that he is only 3 assists behind for tops in the BE? He will easily pass that DePaul guy and be conference leader come March. Any Q bashing here should officially end.

[Xville]

It is always very interesting to re-read threads like this as the season progresses....it says a lot about the views of our fellow posters. After last nights EKU game, the Q’s shoulder theory can be put to bed. Looks like he’s getting close to 100%, the week off seems to have helped. He had a FANTASTIC game last night flirting with the rare “steals” triple/double. Anyone notice that he is only 3 assists behind for tops in the BE? He will easily pass that DePaul guy and be conference leader come March. Any Q bashing here should officially end.

He had a great game against EKU. I'm not a Q basher, but its EKU, doesnt really prove snything... hes supposed to do that against that level of competition.

[Xuperman]

Playing 34 minutes against 40 minutes of swarming full court pressure with only 3 turnovers proves a lot. Overall EKU is not good BUT they do have the athletic ability to put on a very effective press.

[GoMuskies]

It's a good sign, but you can't prove anything against EKU. EKU is hot garbage.

[Xuperman]

I might be the only one here, but I will continue to say Harden is not good. Apparently all he can contribute is rainbow 3's. He has a grand total of THREE rebounds and 1 assist in 83 minutes. Has only two made 2 pointers in 23 FGA. Kennedy is clearly outplaying him and should see more floor time over Elias going forward.

I can’t resist continuing to predict a Harden transfer AND he should if he wants to have any kind of a college career to look back on. I would never criticize him for anything other than he’s a STATISTICAL disaster for a 4 STAR recruit. 10 games into his 2nd year and he has virtually nothing to show for it. Take away the 2 games where he did post some numbers, and he has over 45 games of nothing....and what IS there is horrible. No sign he can get enough PT for this to change, so why wouldn’t he look to play in the Sunbelt or something.

[Xville]

Playing 34 minutes against 40 minutes of swarming full court pressure with only 3 turnovers proves a lot. Overall EKU is not good BUT they do have the athletic ability to put on a very effective press.

Meh...its EKU. Let's see how he does against a very good defensive Missouri team on the road that can match his basketball ability. He does well there, then I'll start to get excited.

[drudy23]

We need wins against good teams. At this point, games like EKU have nothing but downside possibility. That's the position we've put ourselves in.

Our resume is extremely, extremely weak.

[Xuperman]

Meh...its EKU. Let's see how he does against a very good defensive Missouri team on the road that can match his basketball ability. He does well there, then I'll start to get excited.

I was only referring to the UNIQUENESS of playing a team that presses all 40 minutes. Very FEW teams do that and EKU does it well.....So, for the record, your not a fan of Q’s game? I only say that for your lack of “excitement “ so far.

[Xuperman]

Want to give Paul Scruggs some props...he pitched a “perfect game “ last night offensively, making every shot that left his hand including free throws. His season stats are remarkable as he is now only 5 points behind Naj for team high in scoring....very impressive .576 FG% and a phenomenal .469% from distance.

[xudash]

I was only referring to the UNIQUENESS of playing a team that presses all 40 minutes. Very FEW teams do that and EKU does it well.....So, for the record, your not a fan of Q’s game? I only say that for your lack of “excitement “ so far.

I agree with you. That was a unique game to play. And it was 40 minutes of it.

[Xville]

I was only referring to the UNIQUENESS of playing a team that presses all 40 minutes. Very FEW teams do that and EKU does it well.....So, for the record, your not a fan of Q’s game? I only say that for your lack of “excitement “ so far.

I think q is fine...he is obviously really good when he is able to be the 2nd or 3rd scoring option. I think a lot is being asked of him this year because of the dearth of upper classmen talent and I'm not sure if he has enough game to carry a team against good competition. I hope he proves me wrong though and he certainly could.

In terms of excitement, I meant more about the team as a whole....though Mizzou is not going to be mistaken for world beaters, the game is on the road and is along the type of talent xavier is going to see for the most part during be play this year.

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't understand why we inbounds the ball against the press and then wait for the 2nd defender to come over to surround the ball instead of just turning and driving up the floor. Also with the speed on this team, shouldn't be so hard to get open for the inbounds pass. HUSTLE! GET OPEN!

[bjf123]

Want to give Paul Scruggs some props...he pitched a “perfect game “ last night offensively, making every shot that left his hand including free throws. His season stats are remarkable as he is now only 5 points behind Naj for team high in scoring....very impressive .576 FG% and a phenomenal .469% from distance.

If he can just stop with the stupid fouls.


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[xudash]

I don't understand why we inbounds the ball against the press and then wait for the 2nd defender to come over to surround the ball instead of just turning and driving up the floor. Also with the speed on this team, shouldn't be so hard to get open for the inbounds pass. HUSTLE! GET OPEN!

Totally agree.

It was like, "hey, come over here and pin me down" instead of maintaining movement on a number of occasions.

[Jumpin_Jamal_Forever]

Glad for the "W" last night and having been somewhat critical of Q's play this year, I'm also happy to acknowledge his performance last night was pretty good. Scruggs and Naji looked decent; as did Tyrique. But folks it was EKU.

After seeing Q improve in his first two years, I've been disappointed this year. Perhaps it is the injury (that would make sense). Or, as noted above, maybe he just isn't able to go from being the scoring option behind Bluiett, Macura, etc., to being the first option (or, at least) one of them. I feel for Hardin. It appears he's trying---maybe too hard. When he comes into the game, he always seems like a deer in the headlights. Last night in ten minutes I recall an ugly three point air ball and a bunch of poor decisions leading to turnovers. Clearly, not what one should expect from a second year, former four star prospect. He needs more P.T. and this was the part of the season to get minutes. But, his play hasn't earned more time on the court. So, it is a vicious circle-needs to develop but can't earn his way into the lineup. Seems like a good kid and I hope, if it is confidence he needs, that he finds a way to develop it. I am rooting for him. There are two years left after this season so he may turn out fine. I haven't seen much of Kennedy and even less of James to make any assessment of them.

So, even though we are still somewhat early in the season, I'm having a difficult time seeing a clear way for X to deliver anymore than a few conference wins. If we establish the "Over/Under" at six B.E. wins, as of today, I take the under without hesitation. Although the league is more balanced this year vs. last, I have a hard time pointing to the schedule and telling myself "we should beat those guys". It is more like "how can we beat these guys?". On a semi-related note, I am hoping for a return of Hoya Paranoia. It can only be good for the B.E. and by extension, X, if Ewing is able to restore G.T. to their former glory.

Had Mack stayed, this year would likely have been, it seems to me, a rebuilding year at best and that assumes that he would have brought in a successful recruiting class. So, with Mack or now, Steele, either way I think we would have had about the same result. Perhaps Gates would not have left but, even so, not sure what leadership he would have contributed -at times he disappeared completely. Happy to have the three grad transfers and hoping they continue to grow and get more comfortable. But, they will be gone next year and so, this year, again it appears to me, is at best, a bridge year to the rebuilding that must occur next year. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic. From my vantage point, I considered my views as realistic. Who knows? I still, however, remain a fan and I hope for the best.

But, if we are destined to end up in a lower tier of the B.E. this year, I would have rather watched a bunch of freshman and sophomores develop than the team I'm seeing. Again, nothing against the transfers. They are playing hard and have improved since season opening. And, as other posters have noted, Steele had to cobble together a roster on pretty short notice. But, there is just not much of future in the team we are today watching.

All of this continues to make a very strong case, in my view, for coaching stability. Xavier cannot continue on its journey to the top ranks of college basketball with disruptions similar to what we endured with Mack.

[paulxu]

Totally agree.

It was like, "hey, come over here and pin me down" instead of maintaining movement on a number of occasions.

If EKU can press us into 27 TO's, I would imagine some BE coaches may gameplan this approach.

[Xuperman]

If EKU can press us into 27 TO's, I would imagine some BE coaches may gameplan this approach.

The 27 is an anomaly... most of those were unforced or just showboating after our guys busted their pressure. Good luck to BE coaches dealing with our core 4.

[muskienick]

1) The EKU game was one of the ugliest I've had to witness at Xavier since the Dick Campbell years.
2) Our guards generally seemed totally unprepared to deal with a pressing defense. They actually seemed to wait to be double-teamed or often dribbled to a position on the floor where it was easier for the defense to force bad passes or trap the ball again.
3) I could not believe that it took our coaching staff about 10 minutes to figure out that our players were incapable to defend against a very lowly-rated D-1 team in the man-to-man set. To their credit, one (or more) of them finally realized that it might be wise to go to the zone where our guys seemed to be much more comfortable and, strangely, much more willing to play aggressively. Is there some reason why we seem to be reticent to buy into being (for the most part) a solid zone defense team?

[XUGRAD80]

There is an excellent article on the 24/7 site about this adapting of the zone defense, how it’s been implemented, how it frees up the outside players, why it’s working so well as it takes advantage of the physical talents of people like Q and Naji. Was compared to the zone that Syracuse uses and how it can actually generate offense off of the turnovers it creates.

When looking at the Xavier turnovers in the game, it’s important to look at just who had them. Q only had 2 until very late in the game when he got his 3rd, and Castlin only had 1 the entire game. It was Hardin and Kennedy at the guards and Naji, Jones, and Zach that had most of the turnovers. Many of those were from those guards, and Naji, driving to far in and waiting to long to send passes to the post, after defeating the press in the backcourt. There were also some very dubious offensive fouls called that are includeded in the TO category. Very few of the turnovers actually occurred when X was in a 1/2 court set. Haven’t seen the statistic for EK points off of turnovers, but I bet it wasn’t really bad.

One of the comments made in the 24/7 article (by Q if I remember correctly) was that in this game there were actually very few “plays” called and it was much more of a free flowing type game. Games like that usually result in many more turnovers, but they also result in many more possessions. I’d be interested to see if the % of turnovers per possession was really that much higher than some of the other games where X had many fewer turnovers, but also many fewer possessions. Also remember that X shot 71% for this game. Compare that to the UC game, or some of the others. If X hadn’t been shooting so many layups, they would never shoot that high of a percentage.

So I guess it’s somewhat of a trade off. In a free flowing game like that, you get many more possessions, get many more layups and dunks, but also usually have many more turnovers. Unusual to have such a free flowing game when X was playing so much zone though.

[XUFan09]

There is an excellent article on the 24/7 site about this adapting of the zone defense, how it’s been implemented, how it frees up the outside players, why it’s working so well as it takes advantage of the physical talents of people like Q and Naji. Was compared to the zone that Syracuse uses and how it can actually generate offense off of the turnovers it creates.

When looking at the Xavier turnovers in the game, it’s important to look at just who had them. Q only had 2 until very late in the game when he got his 3rd, and Castlin only had 1 the entire game. It was Hardin and Kennedy at the guards and Naji, Jones, and Zach that had most of the turnovers. Many of those were from those guards, and Naji, driving to far in and waiting to long to send passes to the post, after defeating the press in the backcourt. There were also some very dubious offensive fouls called that are includeded in the TO category. Very few of the turnovers actually occurred when X was in a 1/2 court set. Haven’t seen the statistic for EK points off of turnovers, but I bet it wasn’t really bad.

One of the comments made in the 24/7 article (by Q if I remember correctly) was that in this game there were actually very few “plays” called and it was much more of a free flowing type game. Games like that usually result in many more turnovers, but they also result in many more possessions. I’d be interested to see if the % of turnovers per possession was really that much higher than some of the other games where X had many fewer turnovers, but also many fewer possessions. Also remember that X shot 71% for this game. Compare that to the UC game, or some of the others. If X hadn’t been shooting so many layups, they would never shoot that high of a percentage.

So I guess it’s somewhat of a trade off. In a free flowing game like that, you get many more possessions, get many more layups and dunks, but also usually have many more turnovers. Unusual to have such a free flowing game when X was playing so much zone though.A lot of this is spot-on. The turnovers were part of the high-risk-high-reward playstyle that was rather free-flowing. EKU's defense was selling out on turnovers, so X played into that. The turnover rate was still bad, but it wasn't horrific because the possession count was so high. Basically, X usually scored if they didn't turn it over. In sum, they scored on 42 possessions, turned the ball over on 27 possessions, and gave up a defensive rebound on 17 possessions.

Naji was guilty of the most individual turnovers (6), as he tries to play the point forward type. Long-term I don't mind him taking on that role, because he can make a lot of plays for himself and others, and he did at least notch 6 assists. However, there are going to be growing pains, not to mention that he needs to calm down on trying to make the home run pass.

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[Xuperman]

Our coach will need to grow into the job quickly and continue to pound defense first. We have a very physically gifted and talented group with great chemistry, until we see some on court friction/finger pointing or any whiff of coach losing the locker room, X will be X!!

Last night was a steaming pile of cow dung and the seed of doubt has been planted in it. Hopefully it can be forgotten quickly or that kind of performance that can have lingering effects. This is gut check time for Steele and staff,....the first of many. If the players start to question their coaches, even subtly ala the Naji twitter thing, it could snowball into something bigger.

[GoMuskies]

Not that early anymore assessment: we're shitty.

[whopper]

I am a 5 year fan but have followed college hoops for 50 years. Xavier has been spoiled recently with excellent teams, and the Kanter grad transfer almost put a nice team into the final 4 by adding one of the best offensive centers in the country into our lap for one year. What we see this year is reality and what most teams and fan bases have to deal with. The Provident/FSU one two punch probably cost us Mack, Gates and even the Bordeaux guy who has looked pretty good. Right now the team, the coaches (and more from the assistants is needed) and even the fan base must reset expectations, realize we may be playing Wed(like 2 years ago at MSG), aim for Thursday and God forbid Friday. I hope there is a players only meeting with some leadership by Q and Tyrique at least and a realization by the grad transfers that to see the big dance they must play a bigger role in play and example. Good luck X and get ready for a bumpy ride and hopefully not all lows.

[fellahmuskie]

When I ordered tickets to the DePaul game a few months ago, I had no idea how big it would be.

Last year's team barely escaped twice vs. DePaul, so maybe we can start turning this around with a convincing win in Chicago. Oh, and take care of business Friday vs. Detroit.

[GoMuskies]

When I ordered tickets to the DePaul game a few months ago, I had no idea how big it would be.


It literally could decide last place in the league. Though I think Georgetown may still have something to say about that.

[MHettel]

UPDATE!

-The emphasis on bringing in "big" guards in the last few recruiting classes was to address the defensive challenegs we had, and to allow us to play a little more physical on the perimeter. But, it's come at the expense of ball handling and the ability to get to the rim. I'll elaborate a little...

Both Q and Scruggs are capable ball handlers, but together they arent a good pair. Each guy could be a PG if we had a SG that was a +++ ballhandler and slasher. But we dont have that, and neither of these guys is anything better than an average ballhandler. Add Castlin into the mix as a 2/3 and he measures up as pretty average as well. Marshall as a PF SHOULD be an above average ball handler, but he's been crappy as well. not a single player on the roster that would be considered "better than average" as a ball handler for the position they play.

In terms of getting to the rim, it's clear that Q and Scruggs can do so on occasion, but generally face contact from a collapsing interior defender. They use their BODIES to get to the rim. What we need is a guy that uses quickness to get to the rim before the rim protector does. We dont have a single guy that can do that. Again, not a player on the roster that would be considered to have above average quickness for the position thay play.

-Other WOEFULL shortcomings that have become more apparent.

1. Tyrique has bad hands. IF he catches the ball, and IF he can complete his move, we PROBABLY get to see a montster dunk. That burns an image in our minds, and we want Tyrique getting the ball in the post more. HE bobbles away probably 35% of the passes into the post and dribbles off his leg on about 35% of the ones he does manage to catch. He's not an effective interior passer, so he's just gonna get doubled for the rest of his career.

2. Welage is horrible on defense. i mean, just bad. Guys are just jacking up shots when he's on them. Heck, we go to a zone just to hide him when he's out there.... And his rebounding is terrible...so much so that i cannot recall a single reound from him all year that was "contested." he loses 100% of the 50/50 rebounds. for Welage to add ANY value, we need him to double his shot attempts in the same amount of minutes. It's not practical to think he can do this on his own, and so the offense must function to find ways to get him open. Unfortunately, i dont see this happening with this personnel.

3. For as big as we SEEM, this team plays SMALL. Q and Scruggs could be considered a big backcourt, but Castin and Naji are small as a pair of forwards. Who the hell on this team can set an effective screen for a shooter to come off of? Trevon and JP LIVED off of screens over the last few years. Kanter, O'mara, and Kaiser were big bodies that defenders had to fight through / around. And the quick trigger (and accuracy) of JP and Trevon was a key to our offense. Maybe our shooting would improve if we we weren't taking as many contested shots at the end of the shot clock after 30- seconds of guys just standing around.

4. The Scruggs "drive with the spin move" is kind of like the Tyrique entry pass that ends with a dunk. We remember ALL the times it works, but seems to forget that he gets stripped about 35% of the time, which leads to a fastbreak bucket almost every time. this is too high risk of an offensive move, and he's either got to get better at it, or just set it aside. or maybe find a way to sell a foul....

I think I'm fully in favor of going with 2 bigs as part of the rotation. Hankins could play 35 minutes if we needed, give Tyrique 25 and we'd have 20 minutes with them together. get Welage out there with them and have the big boys set screens to free up a driving lane for a guard, or to free up Welage for a 3.

[OTRMUSKIE]

My assessment is... we suck! Let’s just get this season over with and start over next year.

[bjf123]

My assessment is... we suck! Let’s just get this season over with and start over next year.

Yep. How soon until FC Cincinnati starts play?


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[xu koop scoop]

I have hopes for this year yet. We took Top 10 Auburn to OT. We may have tied Wisky at end except for a charge call. Wisky, Auburn , UC all seemed acceptable with depleted talent. Remember we not only have new head coach but assistants are new too. Two years ago we were 9-9 in BE & if we hadn't beat DePaul & Butler we would not have danced as am 11 seed. We lost 6 straight at one point that season. By the way, prior to Missouri game we were #1 in 2 pt fg% in entire country. I still wait to see Tyrique & Hankins play some together. With personnel & coaching adjustments we may turn out ok

[XUBison]

My assessment is... we suck! Let’s just get this season over with and start over next year.

Yep. though There might be a silver lining... the rest of the BE blows ass too. So, we may have a fighter’s chance to still make some noise in conference play. Now that said, we might also finish at the bottom of what might be by far the worst version of the BE in the 6 seasons since its reconfiguration. Jeez... I wonder how many wins we would need in BE play to get an at large... 12 or more? Okay, I’ll stop trying to cheer everyone up.

[XfansinKy]

How can we not be any good yet we have 4 top 100 recruits, one who was KY Gatorade POY, Scruggs #28, Naji #50, and Tyrique. Not to mention we have a D2 POY from the D2 national championship team at center. Elias turned down some SEC schools for X, and Kennedy was a highly ranked recruit. I thought we would have a tough little team.

[whopper]

the good news is that the speculation will be over 17 days from now..a road game at Depaul and a home game at Cintas will tell us 90% of what we need to know. I am hopeful and we will need some contributions from everyone, including Hardin and Jones, to be competitive.

[Xuperman]

If Harden could not contribute anything against that Detroit team, there’s no reason to expect much going forward. We’re down 2 starters and he gets off the bench for 8 minutes? Kk has clearly passed him and unfortunately has made him a non factor.

[fellahmuskie]

We couldn't ask for a better start to the conference schedule for this team: A DePaul, H Seton Hall. Good chance to go 2-0 and build some confidence and chemistry.

That said, we could easily go 0-2 as well.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I have always been a harden fan but I think his ship has sailed. He has been passed on the roster and there are better guards coming next year.


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[XUFan09]

I have always been a harden fan but I think his ship has sailed. He has been passed on the roster and there are better guards coming next year.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah, it was likely to work out this way that he or Kennedy would be fighting for the same backup spot and one of them would lose out on minutes.

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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Yeah, it was likely to work out this way that he or Kennedy would be fighting for the same backup spot and one of them would lose out on minutes.

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It just gets harder with Bishop and Tandy coming in. We lose Castlin and that is it. I think when people look at what the team loses and what replaces those losses, there will be obvious improvement.


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[Xuperman]

Fortunately Harden was part of Mack’s last successful recruiting class. He’s expendable....IMO a LONG SHOT to be on the roster next fall. As we know Mack’s 2015 class was a complete bust. It’s yet to be seen but his thin 2018 class most likely will not produce much “star power”. I am very confident that Steele and staff will avoid these kind of continuity snafus going forward.

[XUFan09]

Fortunately Harden was part of Mack’s last successful recruiting class. He’s expendable....IMO a LONG SHOT to be on the roster next fall. As we know Mack’s 2015 class was a complete bust. It’s yet to be seen but his thin 2018 class most likely will not produce much “star power”. I am very confident that Steele and staff will avoid these kind of continuity snafus going forward.Do you mean the 2013 class was a complete bust? Because the 2015 class was just Kaiser Gated and X got three productive years out of him.

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[Xuperman]

Do you mean the 2013 class was a complete bust? Because the 2015 class was just Kaiser Gated and X got three productive years out of him.

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Productive? He was the most disappointing recruit in recent memory....not to mention, he bolted before he had a chance to redeem himself!

[XUFan09]

Productive? He was the most disappointing recruit in recent memory....not to mention, he bolted before he had a chance to redeem himself!Well, disappointment is a product of expectations, so quite simply, your expectations were too high if you considered him "the most disappointing recruit in recent memory."

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[Xuperman]

Well, disappointment is a product of expectations, so quite simply, your expectations were too high if you considered him "the most disappointing recruit in recent memory."

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Name another.

[XUFan09]

Name another.Harden, London, Austin, Randolph, Richards. If we are working with players with heightened expectations after they have already played some at the D1 level, Philmore as a transfer, Martin as an upperclassman, and Reynolds as an upperclassman.

And I've limited myself to only players who have played in the past five seasons (2014-2018) and who have completed their Xavier careers, with the exception of Harden (but he's a former 4 star recruit who's now a sophomore).

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[Xuperman]

Harden, London, Austin, Randolph, Richards. If we are working with players with heightened expectations after they have already played some at the D1 level, Philmore as a transfer, Martin as an upperclassman, and Reynolds as an upperclassman.

And I've limited myself to only players who have played in the past five seasons (2014-2018) and who have completed their Xavier careers, with the exception of Harden (but he's a former 4 star recruit who's now a sophomore.

None of your first five belong in the discussion...Martin AND Reynolds were much more successful compared to Gates. Kaiser’s career stats at X are dismal.

[noteggs]

Do you mean the 2013 class was a complete bust? Because the 2015 class was just Kaiser Gated and X got three productive years out of him.

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Yeah 2013 was brutal considering we got a top 100 recruit in Randolph. As for 2015, can’t remember but how scholarships did we have available? 2014 was such a large class with 6.

A lot has been said about Kaiser so want don’t revisit. However, do we get Odom if he never played for us?

[XUFan09]

None of your first five belong in the discussion...Martin AND Reynolds were much more successful compared to Gates. Kaiser’s career stats at X are dismal.This is nonsense, so I guess it's par for the course for you.

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[XUFan09]

Yeah 2013 was brutal considering we got a top 100 recruit in Randolph. As for 2015, can’t remember but how scholarships did we have available? 2014 was such a large class with 6.

A lot has been said about Kaiser so want don’t revisit. However, do we get Odom if he never played for us?

Yeah, Randolph was supposed to be the bright light of the fiasco of 2013 recruiting but ended up losing backup point guard minutes to Larry Austin his sophomore year. Xavier didn't have many scholarships in 2015 and after the members of the 2014 class, it could be hard to sell playing time. So, they pretty much sought out a versatile wing (which they got in Kaiser) and otherwise went after luxury players. They didn't get any of the luxury players, but it wasn't the end of the world.

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[Xuperman]

Yeah, Randolph was supposed to be the bright light of the fiasco of 2013 recruiting but ended up losing backup point guard minutes to Larry Austin his sophomore year. Xavier didn't have many scholarships in 2015 and after the members of the 2014 class, it could be hard to sell playing time. So, they pretty much sought out a versatile wing (which they got in Kaiser) and otherwise went after luxury players. They didn't get any of the luxury players, but it wasn't the end of the world.

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You are completely incoherent.

[XUFan09]

You are completely incoherent.Only if you're a fool, which you have proved to be time and time again.

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[Xuperman]

Only if you're a fool, which you have proved to be time and time again.

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What's your problem? Time and time again? Give me JUST ONE example.......You're the one propping up Kaiser Gates for God's sake!!

[XUFan09]

Nonsense.....give me ONE example.
You're the one propping up Kaiser Gates for God's sake!!

You're so far to one side on this that you see me contending that your viewpoint is extreme and counterfactual and you somehow spin that as propping Kaiser up. Guess what? A player can be frustrating and underperform at times and still be generally productive. Sorry he wasn't an all-conference player. Yes, he was passive at times and not a worthwhile contributor in some games. We will just have to settle for him being a versatile defender and on average an efficient role player on teams that either earned high seeds or went on deep tournament runs.

Either you can't get away from black-and-white thinking when you find someone that disagrees with you or you are acting in bad faith right now and trying to mischaracterize me. Either way, it's shitty.

Edit: If you want an example of you being a fool, your very post that I'm quoting presents one. Nice.

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[Xuperman]

My ONLY point was that Mack's 2015 class was a BUST....ZERO to show for it. For some reason that fact offended you and you used Kaiser Gates and "productive " in the same sentence. To reiterate, Coach Steele looks like he can avoid wasted recruiting classes.

[XUFan09]

My ONLY point was that Mack's 2015 class was a BUST....ZERO to show for it. For some reason that fact offended you. And to reiterate, Coach Steele looks like he can avoid wasted recruiting classes.Offended? There you go again, characterizing someone as extreme for disagreeing with you. I'm not offended; I just find it wrong and frankly stupid to call a class a bust with zero to show from when its sole member was a rotation player and frequent starter over a three-year stretch when Xavier was really good.

Edit: Another example of you being a fool: suggesting someone is offended by what you said when they just disagree with you. I mean, you asked for examples while you actively give them.

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[Xuperman]

Unlike me, you freely toss around insults like "fool" "stupid". All I am saying is lost years in recruiting has a ripple effect. X does not get 5 stars.....having seasoned seniors are essential for sustained success. Mack failed in 2015 and we're paying for it now.

[XUFan09]

Unlike me, you freely toss around insults like "fool" "stupid". All I am saying is lost years in recruiting has a ripple effect.Okay, the ripple effect I agree with. But, your example sucks. The 2013 class (or the 2010 class if we are going further back) are great examples. The 2015 class is not, unless you want to argue that the class should have been larger instead of picking up Larry Austin in the spring for the 2014 class (or in addition to that).

Also, I called you a fool because you refused to exit your warped reality for a moment to consider that maybe you were wrong and over-the-top.

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[XUFan09]

None of your first five belong in the discussion...Martin AND Reynolds were much more successful compared to Gates. Kaiser’s career stats at X are dismal.By the way, eliminating five examples without justification just implies you don't like how they jive with your viewpoint. And while it's questionable whether Martin was more successful in three years than Gates in three years (a lot of people on this board would disagree with that), that wasn't the request. The request was to name bigger disappointments than Gates. Acting otherwise after examples were given is just moving the goalposts and an example of either inconsistent thinking or acting in bad faith. The whole response speaks of someone frustrated when something might threaten their worldview rather than clear-eyed debate.

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[BigMoeMusketeer]

And while it's questionable whether Martin was more successful in three years than Gates in three years (a lot of people on this board would disagree with that),

The last thing I'd want to get in the middle of is the ongoing slap-and-tickle fight you two are having, but I had to interject here. There are people on this site that would say Kaiser "was more successful" in his 3 years than Justin Martin was? Seriously? Even in Marty's pot-induced fog, his career consisted of more starts, more points, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, and more blocks. He was a much bigger part of the team, and had a usage rate that was 37% higher than Kaiser.

A better comparison for Gates is Jeff Robinson's last 3 years compared to Gates' only 3 years. Both showed signs of brilliance followed by long stretches of invisibility.

[Xavier]

It is tough to compare Gates to Martin- would have been interesting to see what Gates could have done as "the man". I was happy with what Gates brought to Xavier- way more so than Robinson. He was really only a spread the floor player and every now and then showed he could pump fake and drive. I thought he was successful in his role. So much so that he had people telling him to leave early for the NBA- that or he saw the writing on the wall. Still, I would've liked to see what he could do if his role increased.

[BigMoeMusketeer]

he had people telling him to leave early for the NBA

*cough* DAD *cough*

[XUFan09]

It is tough to compare Gates to Martin- would have been interesting to see what Gates could have done as "the man". I was happy with what Gates brought to Xavier- way more so than Robinson. He was really only a spread the floor player and every now and then showed he could pump fake and drive. I thought he was successful in his role. So much so that he had people telling him to leave early for the NBA- that or he saw the writing on the wall. Still, I would've liked to see what he could do if his role increased.Yeah, I wouldn't say Martin was ever really "the man," but he was one of the key offensive options on the 2013 team that didn't make the NCAA or NIT tournaments and the 2014 team who only made the NCAA play-in game. He had a higher usage rate for relatively poor teams as a sophomore and junior.

Gates played next to Bluiett and Macura all three years where the team earned a 1 and 2 seed in two of those years and the worst regular season still garnered an 11 seed and an Elite Eight run.

So, yes, it's debatable who was actually more successful at Xavier because the context for their careers was totally different. Martin's raw stats were better because he had to play more minutes and he had to contribute to the offense more for weak teams. Gates was much more efficient because he just had to complement really good players on really good teams. If we flipped their roles, we would likely see a flip in their outputs too.

Edit: By the way, a comparison to Jeff Robinson? Seriously, Big Moe? In their last years, both Robinson and Gates flipped between starting and coming off the bench. But, Robinson's team didn't make the NIT while Gates' team earned a 1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Although your description is accurate that both disappeared at times while being brilliant at times, Gates overall was so much better as a player.

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[scoscox]

Justin Martin was a much higher rated recruit than kaiser

[BigMoeMusketeer]

Edit: By the way, a comparison to Jeff Robinson? Seriously, Big Moe? In their last years, both Robinson and Gates flipped between starting and coming off the bench. But, Robinson's team didn't make the NIT while Gates' team earned a 1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Although your description is accurate that both disappeared at times while being brilliant at times, Gates overall was so much better as a player.

Yes...seriously. Let's start with the basics: they are both long, lean, aloof, capable of greatness, but more frequently blended in. Both were similarly recruited, Kaiser was rated higher at the PF position nationally (24 vs 42), but Jeff had the higher "scout grade" from ESPN (89 vs 80). Both always left you knowing there was more there, but seldomly, if ever, delivered.

Yes, Kaiser was on better teams, and yes, Kaiser was marginally better quantitatively (see below), but they have a whole lot more in common than you'd initially think.

* Player Efficiency Rating: Robinson 13.0 / Gates 12.9.
* Points Produced: Robinson 463 / Gates 509.
* ORB %: Robinson 9.2% / Gates 6.0%.
* DRB %: Robinson 15.5% / Gates 16.8%.
* TRB %: Robinson 12.4% / Gates 11.6%.
* Assists : Robinson 24 / Gates 58.
* Steals: Robinson 37 / Gates 42.
* Blocks: Robinson 50 / Gates 21.
* Usage %: Robinson 16.2% / Gates 14.3%.
* Win Shares: Robinson 4.5 / Gates 5.4 (less than 1 win difference over a 3 year career [only taking Jeff's last 3 years])
* Offensive Plus Minus: Robinson -.5 / Gates 3.8 (this is Gates' advantage, he was a slightly better than average off. player, Jeff was just below avg)
* Defensive Plus Minus: Robinson 2.0 / Gates 2.0
* Minutes played per game: Robinson 17.9 / Gates 18.6
* Starts: Robinson 35 / Gates 23 (admittedly, and noted, Gates played on better teams)

I'll give Gates the slight nod, but they are much closer (and appeared that way to me during their careers as well) than one would think, especially when digging in a little deeper.

[MHettel]

Martin probably goes down as my least favorite player in XU history.

Robinson and Gates both appeared to be a little reactive on the court, and neither had much of a feel for the game. They both had physical tools, but not alot of instinct, and that defined their performance / production.

Martin just seemed like a guy that didnt want to hustle or play hard because it wasnt cool. You know that guy, right? The one that doesnt want anyone to think he's trying and asa result acts like it no big deal when he misses or fails. I HATED playing sports with jackasses like that.

Martin = ANTI JP

[MHettel]

* Assists : Robinson 24

WHAT!!!! I almost cannot believe that. He's a defensive stopper on offense. Holy cow.

[XUFan09]

Yes...seriously. Let's start with the basics: they are both long, lean, aloof, capable of greatness, but more frequently blended in. Both were similarly recruited, Kaiser was rated higher at the PF position nationally (24 vs 42), but Jeff had the higher "scout grade" from ESPN (89 vs 80). Both always left you knowing there was more there, but seldomly, if ever, delivered.

Yes, Kaiser was on better teams, and yes, Kaiser was marginally better quantitatively (see below), but they have a whole lot more in common than you'd initially think.

* Player Efficiency Rating: Robinson 13.0 / Gates 12.9.
* Points Produced: Robinson 463 / Gates 509.
* ORB %: Robinson 9.2% / Gates 6.0%.
* DRB %: Robinson 15.5% / Gates 16.8%.
* TRB %: Robinson 12.4% / Gates 11.6%.
* Assists : Robinson 24 / Gates 58.
* Steals: Robinson 37 / Gates 42.
* Blocks: Robinson 50 / Gates 21.
* Usage %: Robinson 16.2% / Gates 14.3%.
* Win Shares: Robinson 4.5 / Gates 5.4 (less than 1 win difference over a 3 year career [only taking Jeff's last 3 years])
* Offensive Plus Minus: Robinson -.5 / Gates 3.8 (this is Gates' advantage, he was a slightly better than average off. player, Jeff was just below avg)
* Defensive Plus Minus: Robinson 2.0 / Gates 2.0
* Minutes played per game: Robinson 17.9 / Gates 18.6
* Starts: Robinson 35 / Gates 23 (admittedly, and noted, Gates played on better teams)

I'll give Gates the slight nod, but they are much closer (and appeared that way to me during their careers as well) than one would think, especially when digging in a little deeper.

Any rating system that gives Robinson and Gates almost the same efficiency rating is criminally suspect. Robinson's Kenpom offensive ratings were 107.3/97.4/101.5, while Gates' ratings were 108.0/111.8/122.4. This is based on an average higher true shooting percentage (Robinson's 56.0%/53.9%/51.6% vs. Gates' 54.6%/53.3%/60.1%) and consistently lower turnover rate (Robinson's 16.6%/22.6%/17.9% vs. Gates' 15.2%/13.4%/11.5%). Robinson has a better offensive rebounding rate, but he wasn't game-changing in that regard while Gates was respectable himself (and actually had a better defensive rebounding rate than Robinson).

I suspect that that rating system is trying to quantify defense based on defensive stats in its efficiency rating, which is always a questionable notion. For example, it does not quantify Gates' defensive versatility and ability to stay in front of a wide range of perimeter players and body up against a number of post players. Meanwhile, Robinson wasn't really a good defensive player until his senior year. Heck, rating systems that evaluate defensive prowess frequently rank J.P. Macura as a good defender because of his good steal rate and moderate foul rate.

[XUFan09]

Justin Martin was a much higher rated recruit than kaiser

Yeah, I think Martin was more talented than Kaiser, but I have also always viewed Martin as having the largest talent-to-production disparity of any recent Xavier player.

[xudash]

Put this here - from the Cincinnati paper:

"Usually, when we get in that situation and previous situations this season we kind of all crashed and folded but over the weeks going into Big East play we tried to lay message like let's stick together, keep getting stops, we'll be all good. That's what we did," said Naji Marshall, who scored a team-high 19 points (14 in the second half) with a career-high 14 rebounds."

Winning is one thing. Winning through adversity while finding a way to click together is wonderful.

And Steele coached a good game.

[Xuperman]

Naj is quietly climbing to the top of the BEast in rebounds...who saw that coming!