Could Louisville Basketball Get Death Penalty?

[PURPLE REIGN]

I really don't think it will happen but this respected national college basketball writer seems to be calling for it.

The NCAA’s stated criteria for implementing the “repeat violator” legislation and enacting the so-called death penalty is straightforward. Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs … within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case,” NCAA documents read. “The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.”

In this case it isn’t just the same sport, men’s basketball, it’s the same coaching staff, Rick Pitino’s. And forget five years, Louisville didn’t make it five months. The first, with the strippers and the prostitutes, occurred because of the direct actions of director of basketball operations Andre McGee, who was gone by the time the sanctions hit. This one, if true, would be the associate head coach.

Perhaps even worse for Louisville, this trial isn’t even half over. The prosecution has already stated, without details, that another assistant coach, Jordan Fair, paid $900 to a separate student athlete at an undisclosed time. It is also possible that a secret recording of a meeting in Las Vegas may be introduced featuring Fair. That’s three separate members of Pitino’s staff that would be implicated.

If the committee on infractions doesn’t have the courage to implement the death penalty on that, then the NCAA should just give up and take it off the books.


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/louisville-basketball-get-death-penalty-latest-revelations-college-hoops-trial-225857521.html

[bleedXblue]

If this is true, I would think that the penalties will be harsh..............

[GoMuskies]

Louisville has completely cleaned house. Board of Trustees, President, Athletic Director, basketball coach and every member of the basketball staff (and most members of the athletic department) have turned over. At this point, you wouldn't really be giving the death penalty to the party that committed the crimes. So I'd be very, very surprised.

[Caf]

I don't think we'll ever see a death penalty again. The dollars on the line in today's college athletics are too high for the NCAA to take action.

[XU 87]

After the SMU devastation, I don't think the NCAA wants to give the death penalty again, but I wonder if we will see very severe sanctions that could cripple the program for a few years- such as no NCAA for 2-3 years, limits on scholarships etc.

[Xville]

What this tells us is that Louisville is extremely bad at cheating. They need to hire whoever is cheating at UNC, Duke, Kentucky etc.

[XMuskieFTW]

The Louisville brand is too big for large NCAA sanctions. If it's one thing the NCAA has proven time and time again(like with UNC recently), it's that they just care about generating income.

I wouldn't be shocked if Depaul of Creighton came away from this worse than Louisville.

[bleedXblue]

Louisville has completely cleaned house. Board of Trustees, President, Athletic Director, basketball coach and every member of the basketball staff (and most members of the athletic department) have turned over. At this point, you wouldn't really be giving the death penalty to the party that committed the crimes. So I'd be very, very surprised.

Yes, but you cant NOT impose sanctions.......and they should be severe (if proven)......otherwise you are giving every single school the green light to cheat and all you have to do is fire a coach, AD, etc......

[GoMuskies]

Yes, but you cant NOT impose sanctions.......and they should be severe (if proven)......otherwise you are giving every single school the green light to cheat and all you have to do is fire a coach, AD, etc......

I guess. But who benefits, exactly, if everyone involved from Board of Trustees down through equipment manager gets shitcanned.

[Caf]

I guess. But who benefits, exactly, if everyone involved from Board of Trustees down through equipment manager gets shitcanned.

That makes sense, but logic isn't exactly the NCAA's thing.

[paulxu]

Paging Cleveland State (aka Creighton)...please pick up the white courtesy phone.

[JTG]

I rmember when UK got no tv for a year. That is harsh. Just because the culprits are gone, the institution should still pay. Plus, f*ck Mack.

[xubrew]

Louisville has completely cleaned house. Board of Trustees, President, Athletic Director, basketball coach and every member of the basketball staff (and most members of the athletic department) have turned over. At this point, you wouldn't really be giving the death penalty to the party that committed the crimes. So I'd be very, very surprised.

For this reason, I do not think Louisville will get the death penalty. BUT....

They are level 1 repeat offenders. Everyone points out that the NCAA has not dished out the death penalty since SMU. The reality is that I don't there have been any level 1 repeat offenders since SMU either. Most of the time the death penalty gets thrown out there by the media et al, it's a situation where it's not even on the table because it's not a repeat offense. The last time I think it was actually in play was with Oklahoma, and that was for secondary stuff that wasn't that big of a deal. This IS a big deal. So, while I don't THINK they'll get it, I would not go so far to assume that they won't. They might.

As far as them not wanting to do it because of how badly it crippled SMU, that is precisely the point of the death penalty. No one at the NCAA feels the least bit bad about that, and I'm entirely convinced that if it happened again on that level, they'd issue it again. It did wreck their program, but it was supposed to wreck their program. I think there are some that would even take it a step further if it were up to them. Not only would they want to give Louisville the death penalty, but they'd make their entire program go through the reclassification process to get back to the div1 level. That's four years of probation where they're not eligible for the postseason and cannot collect any NCAA Tournament money. Again, I don't think that will happen because I don't even think they'll get the death penalty. I just say that to point out that they don't care how badly SMU was devastated. They want this penalty to be just that devastating.

[paulxu]

I could see post-season ban for a number of years (I think Mack protected against this in his contract) and loss of scholarships.

[noteggs]

I could see post-season ban for a number of years (I think Mack protected against this in his contract) and loss of scholarships.

Speaking of scholarships, don’t think their number 2 ranking for recruits in 2019 is not going to last long.

[JTG]

I could see post-season ban for a number of years (I think Mack protected against this in his contract) and loss of scholarships.

While Mack is protected, who wants to go multiple years playing games with no post season? That's like every game being an exhibition. But, it couldnt happen to a nicer guy, if that's what transpires.

[xukeith]

i bet UL gets a slap on the wrist.
Lose 1-2 schollys.
That's it. Maybe some fines and give back trophies and titles.

[XUGRAD80]

Logically....and who ever said that the NCAA folks were logical....they SHOULD get major sanctions, up to and including the “death penalty”. The purpose of it is not just to punish the guilty, but to also serve as a warning to others. The NCAA doesn’t really NEED Louisville in order to make money. They need the TV contracts. If the TV audience starts to go down because of a lack of confidence in the “fairness” of the recruiting process and the lack of a “level playing field” in college athletics, it’s much more important than just one school playing or not playing.

[bleedXblue]

i bet UL gets a slap on the wrist.
Lose 1-2 schollys.
That's it. Maybe some fines and give back trophies and titles.

they've already done some of this......after hookergate

[XU 87]

they've already done some of this......after hookergate

They also self-imposed a one year NCAA ban, which is one reason I think the next punishment is a minimum of two years.

[drudy23]

I don't think they get the death penalty, but how could they not get some major penalties based on the violations? They paid players to play there...that's like the worst thing you can do. There has to be something substantial for that - loss of schollies and post-season bans.

[sirthought]

Isn't the bigger fear at this point for imposing the death penalty not what happens to Louisville, but if the NCAA gets sued by all the TV and Radio networks, not to mention people who own the arena and other related businesses in Louisville?

Those third party businesses and their employees don't care if a recruit's family gets some money thrown their way. They care if their investment will pay off and if they can make their own payroll. It would be one thing if the entire impact was just on the school and the conference, but it's not.

Enrollment at U of L is not even half of what it is at UC, yet their athletic budget is not even in the same zip code as the Cardinals. That tells me that if U of L is spending a lot on facilities, marketing, transportation, etc. A slow down in all that spending will get a lot of people annoyed with the NCAA.

I wonder if a bigger punishment, beyond the firings and scholarships, would be forcing them to change to a lower conference without the attached media contracts?

[Muskie]

Isn't the bigger fear at this point for imposing the death penalty not what happens to Louisville, but if the NCAA gets sued by all the TV and Radio networks, not to mention people who own the arena and other related businesses in Louisville?

Those third party businesses and their employees don't care if a recruit's family gets some money thrown their way. They care if their investment will pay off and if they can make their own payroll. It would be one thing if the entire impact was just on the school and the conference, but it's not.

Enrollment at U of L is not even half of what it is at UC, yet their athletic budget is not even in the same zip code as the Cardinals. That tells me that if U of L is spending a lot on facilities, marketing, transportation, etc. A slow down in all that spending will get a lot of people annoyed with the NCAA.

I wonder if a bigger punishment, beyond the firings and scholarships, would be forcing them to change to a lower conference without the attached media contracts?

My guess as a NCAA member, Louisvile would be required to indemnify the NCAA for their bad acts. Assuming it happened of course.

[JTG]

Isn't the bigger fear at this point for imposing the death penalty not what happens to Louisville, but if the NCAA gets sued by all the TV and Radio networks, not to mention people who own the arena and other related businesses in Louisville?

Those third party businesses and their employees don't care if a recruit's family gets some money thrown their way. They care if their investment will pay off and if they can make their own payroll. It would be one thing if the entire impact was just on the school and the conference, but it's not.

Enrollment at U of L is not even half of what it is at UC, yet their athletic budget is not even in the same zip code as the Cardinals. That tells me that if U of L is spending a lot on facilities, marketing, transportation, etc. A slow down in all that spending will get a lot of people annoyed with the NCAA.

I wonder if a bigger punishment, beyond the firings and scholarships, would be forcing them to change to a lower conference without the attached media contracts?

Life has consequences. Saying there should be no punishment because someone will get hurt is ludicrous. UK not being on tv for a year was a much, much bigger deal in Kentucky. Let them play, but no tv and no tournament. Arena and vendors get paid. Tv has many other schools to telecast. And maybe UL figures out once and for all that they cant operate as a bunch of dirtballs.

[xubrew]

I don't think a single TV or radio network would sue the NCAA. If they did, they'd assuredly lose.

[XUGRAD80]

I don't think a single TV or radio network would sue the NCAA. If they did, they'd assuredly lose.

I agree....

There has to be something in the contracts that does not guarantee that any certain schools must be available for telecast, and that also says that the NCAA has the power to impose just such a ban as is being discussed.

However.......a judge in California has just ruled that the NCAA’s “show just cause” requirement placed on a coach that was caught cheating is against California Labor Laws.

So who the he** really has any idea what is happening in this world anymore?

[X-band '01]

Baylor of 2003-2004 is about as close to a death penalty as we may see in D-I basketball. No non-conference games and no postseason - just regular-season conference games is all they were permitted to play. I don't think they were under any TV restrictions, but they were awful after every player of note left town. That was the first year Scott Drew coached at Baylor after inheriting the mess that Dave Bliss left behind.

[usfldan]

This may be crazy, but I think the death penalty’s effect on SMU football is overstated. Don’t get me wrong, it hurt them bad, but the reason SMU is just another random football program today is not the death penalty, it is conference realignment. Its no coincidence that SMU football today is more on the level of Houston and Rice than Texas and Arkansas.
I think a basketball program in a major conference could survive the death penalty much better than SMU football in the WAC/Conference USA/American. Basketball itself lends itself to rebuilding faster than football (15 players vs. 50 to 100), and with the best players no longer staying four years, that cycle can happen ever faster.
The two hardest penalized programs have already been mentioned in this thread (early 90’s UK and 2000’s Baylor), and both of those programs were in the tournament within five years of their punishments. I suspect it won’t happen to Louisville, in part because Duke and Carolina and the rest of the ACC would complain about how it would put a hole in their schedule, but I don’t think the death penalty would be as harsh as the SMU story makes it out to be.

[Xville]

This may be crazy, but I think the death penalty’s effect on SMU football is overstated. Don’t get me wrong, it hurt them bad, but the reason SMU is just another random football program today is not the death penalty, it is conference realignment. Its no coincidence that SMU football today is more on the level of Houston and Rice than Texas and Arkansas.
I think a basketball program in a major conference could survive the death penalty much better than SMU football in the WAC/Conference USA/American. Basketball itself lends itself to rebuilding faster than football (15 players vs. 50 to 100), and with the best players no longer staying four years, that cycle can happen ever faster.
The two hardest penalized programs have already been mentioned in this thread (early 90’s UK and 2000’s Baylor), and both of those programs were in the tournament within five years of their punishments. I suspect it won’t happen to Louisville, in part because Duke and Carolina and the rest of the ACC would complain about how it would put a hole in their schedule, but I don’t think the death penalty would be as harsh as the SMU story makes it out to be.

You are correct it is due to conference realignment, but that program was destroyed by the death penalty, making it an unattractive program to the big conference shuffle in the first place.

[GIMMFD]

Baylor of 2003-2004 is about as close to a death penalty as we may see in D-I basketball. No non-conference games and no postseason - just regular-season conference games is all they were permitted to play. I don't think they were under any TV restrictions, but they were awful after every player of note left town. That was the first year Scott Drew coached at Baylor after inheriting the mess that Dave Bliss left behind.

Yeah I think you're right here, the punishments have been less harsh coming through the ranks of the NCAA and it's a joke of an organization. They never really truly figure out what to do, and in return they look very incompetent. I think Louisville deserves some very harsh punishments, but after Penn State, Baylor football, UNC basketball, etc. it just seems they are going to get a slap on the wrist. I'd love to see this happen to them like Baylor, because it would try to help clean things up, but at the end of the day those programs are going to continue to cheat no matter what.

[principal]

Roy Williams had no idea all of this cheating was going on. LOL

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/north-carolinas-roy-williams-says-he-is-dumbfounded-by-college-basketball-corruption/

[paulxu]

That's only marginally better than saying "we pay regular students too, so you can't touch me."

[X-band '01]

This may be crazy, but I think the death penalty’s effect on SMU football is overstated. Don’t get me wrong, it hurt them bad, but the reason SMU is just another random football program today is not the death penalty, it is conference realignment. Its no coincidence that SMU football today is more on the level of Houston and Rice than Texas and Arkansas.
I think a basketball program in a major conference could survive the death penalty much better than SMU football in the WAC/Conference USA/American. Basketball itself lends itself to rebuilding faster than football (15 players vs. 50 to 100), and with the best players no longer staying four years, that cycle can happen ever faster.
The two hardest penalized programs have already been mentioned in this thread (early 90’s UK and 2000’s Baylor), and both of those programs were in the tournament within five years of their punishments. I suspect it won’t happen to Louisville, in part because Duke and Carolina and the rest of the ACC would complain about how it would put a hole in their schedule, but I don’t think the death penalty would be as harsh as the SMU story makes it out to be.


You are correct it is due to conference realignment, but that program was destroyed by the death penalty, making it an unattractive program to the big conference shuffle in the first place.


Yeah I think you're right here, the punishments have been less harsh coming through the ranks of the NCAA and it's a joke of an organization. They never really truly figure out what to do, and in return they look very incompetent. I think Louisville deserves some very harsh punishments, but after Penn State, Baylor football, UNC basketball, etc. it just seems they are going to get a slap on the wrist. I'd love to see this happen to them like Baylor, because it would try to help clean things up, but at the end of the day those programs are going to continue to cheat no matter what.

Had it not been for the death penalty, SMU would likely have had priority over Baylor into getting into the Big 12 back in the mid-90s.

[GoMuskies]

Had it not been for the death penalty, SMU would likely have had priority over Baylor into getting into the Big 12 back in the mid-90s.

Not unless Ann Richards decided she liked SMU better than she liked her alma mater.

[X-band '01]

It's another chicken-and-egg argument - was former Governor Bill Clements (SMU guy) term-limited? I thought it was because of the SMU scandal that he didn't seek re-election as Texas Governor. That's when Ann Richards and her Baylor ties entered the equation.

[sirthought]

Mike DeCoursey's take is somewhat similar to mine. Too many lawsuits. Too many third party groups hurt. No one at the school left to punish.

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/louisville-basketball-death-penalty-infractions-rick-pitino-kenny-johnson-brian-bowen-adidas-fbi/33jol07hmv7r1oc9bxqvv8nza


Still that answer sucks. As an institution, Louisville should be made an example of in a way that forces college basketball to change for the better.

[muskiefan82]

I think the NCAA death penalty just needs to be redefined as the death of your schools ability to compete for an NCAA championship. You can still play, but you can't play in the postseason.

[paulxu]

I think the NCAA death penalty just needs to be redefined as the death of your schools ability to compete for an NCAA championship. You can still play, but you can't play in the postseason.

I concur. A few years of no post-season, and a loss of some scholarships, that would take at least a little while to recover; and perhaps discourage others.

[xu82]

I concur. A few years of no post-season, and a loss of some scholarships, that would take at least a little while to recover; and perhaps discourage others.

I disagree. REPEATED serious violations deserves something more than “a few years of no post-season”, IMO. You are just thumbing your nose at the NCAA (not that I love them) but also everyone else who tries (or at least pretends to?) play by the rules. Three years of no post-season is not enough if you get caught doing egregious things, then go right out and cheat again in a serious way. I would say five years minimum to make it more painful for opening brothels for under-age recruits and paying fortunes to recruits.

What has the world come to if a few years is all that deserves? A few years for EACH serious violation would be more appropriate.

[muskiefan82]

Five years is fine. I just don't think shutting everything down is the best answer when you have contracts and other things in play. Let them play the regular season, but then stop it there

[Xville]

Baylor basically got a slap on the wrist for lying about a murder and multiple sexual assaults over a period of several years. Penn state got a slap on the wrist for harboring a sexual predator for decades. I'm sorry but in the grand scheme of things, louisville did a hell of a lot less than either of the two above schools.

Penn state and Baylor deserved the death penalty and got no where close to it...louisville deserves less of a penalty than either of those two in my opinion.

[drudy23]

Baylor basically got a slap on the wrist for lying about a murder and multiple sexual assaults over a period of several years. Penn state got a slap on the wrist for harboring a sexual predator for decades. I'm sorry but in the grand scheme of things, louisville did a hell of a lot less than either of the two above schools.

Penn state and Baylor deserved the death penalty and got no where close to it...louisville deserves less of a penalty than either of those two in my opinion.

But neither of those things were related to fair and equal competition on the court.

It's the reason Pete Rose is still banned while others that have done terrible things as humans are fine.

The NCAA's job is to protect the integrity of their game. Paying players throws a big middle finger to that.

It's not the NCAA's job to ensure college coaches and players are good people...it's to protect the integrity of the competition.

[GIMMFD]

Five years is fine. I just don't think shutting everything down is the best answer when you have contracts and other things in play. Let them play the regular season, but then stop it there

Yeah I like 5 years no NCAA/Conference tournament, hell I'd even make it conference play only so they don't get any income from out of conference games/contracts either.


Baylor basically got a slap on the wrist for lying about a murder and multiple sexual assaults over a period of several years. Penn state got a slap on the wrist for harboring a sexual predator for decades. I'm sorry but in the grand scheme of things, louisville did a hell of a lot less than either of the two above schools.

Penn state and Baylor deserved the death penalty and got no where close to it...louisville deserves less of a penalty than either of those two in my opinion.

I'm 150% with you. I don't know if I was clear or not, but I definitely agree Penn State and Baylor deserved death penalties, I get Drudy's point of the NCAA having to protect the game, but at the same time, shouldn't you govern with at least some moral fiber? That makes no sense to me to let the shit that was going on at those two programs run rampant.

[Xville]

But neither of those things were related to fair and equal competition on the court.

It's the reason Pete Rose is still banned while others that have done terrible things as humans are fine.

The NCAA's job is to protect the integrity of their game. Paying players throws a big middle finger to that.

It's not the NCAA's job to ensure college coaches and players are good people...it's to protect the integrity of the competition.

I understand that position, but paying players to me, although cheating and of course wrong, is nowhere remotely close as to what went on at Baylor and penn state. Also, I disagree that you say it isnt the ncaa's job...I completely disagree. As much as it is the head coach's job for what goes on at his university, the ncaa should be responsible and govern for everything that goes on at their member institutions including rape and murder.

[XUGRAD80]

I understand that position, but paying players to me, although cheating and of course wrong, is nowhere remotely close as to what went on at Baylor and penn state. Also, I disagree that you say it isnt the ncaa's job...I completely disagree. As much as it is the head coach's job for what goes on at his university, the ncaa should be responsible and govern for everything that goes on at their member institutions including rape and murder.

What went on at Baylor and Penn St. had nothing to do with athletics...besides the fact that those involved were involved with the athletic departments in some way. They broke civil and criminal laws. The NCAA is not an organization that is set up to enforce laws imposed by governments. It is set up to enforce the rules that it’s members have agreed to follow. The difference between a police officer and a refreee. Paying athletes is not against the law, but it is against the rules. The NCAA needs to concern itself with enforcing its rules and let the courts enforce laws.

[Xville]

What went on at Baylor and Penn St. had nothing to do with athletics...besides the fact that those involved were involved with the athletic departments in some way. They broke civil and criminal laws. The NCAA is not an organization that is set up to enforce laws imposed by governments. It is set up to enforce the rules that it’s members have agreed to follow. The difference between a police officer and a refreee. Paying athletes is not against the law, but it is against the rules. The NCAA needs to concern itself with enforcing its rules and let the courts enforce laws.

Sorry but eff that in relation to both penn state and Baylor. Neither of those schools should have an athletic department at this point in time. The athletic department at Baylor covered up a murder and sexual assaults that occurred over a decade by athletes. Penn state harbored a sexual predator over the course of decades. The ncaa if it had any fucking balls at all would have imposed the death penalty at both of those schools. If it isnt in the "rulebook" then put it in the rulebook. Louisville might have "cheated" the game, penn state and Baylor cheated lives over decades of lack of institutional control.

[bleedXblue]

These "athletic departments" fund an incredible amount of dollars to the institutions. Without them, some schools would be in deep financial crisis. I get the punishment and wanting it to be severe.......but those days are long gone. UL will get some additional sanctions, but nothing close to what they actually deserve.

What is more concerning is that most fans don't care......the UL fans that I see believe the school did enough by removing coaches and administration. I know its ridiculous, but they are perfectly fine continuing to go to the game(s) and rooting for the team with not a second thought about what actually happened.

[Xville]

These "athletic departments" fund an incredible amount of dollars to the institutions. Without them, some schools would be in deep financial crisis. I get the punishment and wanting it to be severe.......but those days are long gone. UL will get some additional sanctions, but nothing close to what they actually deserve.

What is more concerning is that most fans don't care......the UL fans that I see believe the school did enough by removing coaches and administration. I know its ridiculous, but they are perfectly fine continuing to go to the game(s) and rooting for the team with not a second thought about what actually happened.

You really believe that the athletic departments of these schools funnel money to the rest of the institution? If anything it goes the other way.

Take louisville for example...supposedly they were making all this money when in reality they have basically been living off a credit card for a.few decades.

Louisville fans dont really care because much worse stuff has happened at other schools than stripper parties and paying athletes. Yes the school cheated, yes its wrong, yes jurich and Pitino are pieces of shit, but seriously get off your high horse. God forbid the fans continue to root for the players on the field or court that had absolutely nothing to do with what went on there.

[XUGRAD80]

Sorry but eff that in relation to both penn state and Baylor. Neither of those schools should have an athletic department at this point in time. The athletic department at Baylor covered up a murder and sexual assaults that occurred over a decade by athletes. Penn state harbored a sexual predator over the course of decades. The ncaa if it had any fucking balls at all would have imposed the death penalty at both of those schools. If it isnt in the "rulebook" then put it in the rulebook. Louisville might have "cheated" the game, penn state and Baylor cheated lives over decades of lack of institutional control.

Guess that means that if someone in the drama department commits crimes like those, the English department should be shut down? And that all of the people that had nothing to do with those incidents should be punished too? Guilt by association, right?

I’m all in favor of those that break LAWS being punished by the legal system. I’m all in favor of those that break NCAA RULES being punished by the NCAA. But they are not necessarily the same thing. It’s important that those who ARE guilty are punished, it’s also important that those who are innocent are not caught up in the crossfire.

Keep in mind that the “death penalty” of a major cash cow like basketball or football doesn’t just effect the coaches and athletes in the partcular team it is applied to. The money generated by those teams is used to support hundreds of other athletes and coaches that participate in other sports. People that are completely innocent of any association with the wrongdoings.

[Xville]

Guess that means that if someone in the drama department commits crimes like those, the English department should be shut down? And that all of the people that had nothing to do with those incidents should be punished too? Guilt by association, right?

I’m all in favor of those that break LAWS being punished by the legal system. I’m all in favor of those that break NCAA RULES being punished by the NCAA. But they are not necessarily the same thing. It’s important that those who ARE guilty are punished, it’s also important that those who are innocent are not caught up in the crossfire.

Keep in mind that the “death penalty” of a major cash cow like basketball or football doesn’t just effect the coaches and athletes in the partcular team it is applied to. The money generated by those teams is used to support hundreds of other athletes and coaches that participate in other sports. People that are completely innocent of any association with the wrongdoings.

Innocent people are affected by ncaa rulings all the freaking time because of what others have done.

[bleedXblue]

You really believe that the athletic departments of these schools funnel money to the rest of the institution? If anything it goes the other way.

Take louisville for example...supposedly they were making all this money when in reality they have basically been living off a credit card for a.few decades.

Louisville fans dont really care because much worse stuff has happened at other schools than stripper parties and paying athletes. Yes the school cheated, yes its wrong, yes jurich and Pitino are pieces of shit, but seriously get off your high horse. God forbid the fans continue to root for the players on the field or court that had absolutely nothing to do with what went on there.

You have probably 25-50 schools with football/basketball programs that fund an incredible amount of other things within the school. Yes, most of it stays within the athletic departments. E.g. What would Xavier's campus look like without the success of b-ball team? What would enrollment look like? You have the Cintas center that is a multi functional facility that serves several things outside of b-ball. I don't think the NCAA wants to cripple programs anymore. It has far reaching effects.

Yep, I'm fully saddled onto my high horse. The kind of crap that took place at UL, happens at X and I would fully expect major sanctions......and I for one would bow out of my season tix. I wouldn't pay money out of my own pocket to support that.

[Xville]

You have probably 25-50 schools with football/basketball programs that fund an incredible amount of other things within the school. Yes, most of it stays within the athletic departments. E.g. What would Xavier's campus look like without the success of b-ball team? What would enrollment look like? You have the Cintas center that is a multi functional facility that serves several things outside of b-ball. I don't think the NCAA wants to cripple programs anymore. It has far reaching effects.

Yep, I'm fully saddled onto my high horse. The kind of crap that took place at UL, happens at X and I would fully expect major sanctions......and I for one would bow out of my season tix. I wouldn't pay money out of my own pocket to support that.

In that hypothetical situation, you already supported it. Let's say it happens and the athletic director, all the coaches and the president get canned. All you are then doing is hurting the recovery of the program and innocent people by not supporting the school any longer.

[bleedXblue]

In that hypothetical situation, you already supported it. Let's say it happens and the athletic director, all the coaches and the president get canned. All you are then doing is hurting the recovery of the program and innocent people by not supporting the school any longer.

Yes, but it rarely gets this far and deep as it is at UL. They let Pitino stick around far longer than they should have. Whatever sanctions come from this.....they will be deserving of them for sure.

[XUGRAD80]

Innocent people are affected by ncaa rulings all the freaking time because of what others have done.

And that’s a “good” thing? You encourage it? Sure it happens. But shouldn’t it be the aim of any punishment to limit the collateral damage to the innocent, while adequately punishing the guilty? The death penalty is a last resort kind of thing because it does punish the innocent. It does punish those who have absolutely nothing they are guilty of. What if it was YOU that had YOUR opportunities taken away because of the misdeeds of others? How would you feel about it then? I’ll bet you wouldn’t be so ready to call for death then. What if it was your kid that was a member of a team that got the death penalty, but had done nothing wrong? I’ll bet you might feel different then.

Maybe UL deserves the death penalty. But there are plenty of people that have had teams fold up under them for one reason or another, and not because of anything they did. Can you give them back those opportunities that were taken away? Since you can’t give those people back THIER life, I suggest you be a little more hesitant to call for the death of others.

[paulxu]

I believe there are a number of situations, and refuse to group them for what should be done.

If an institution, or it's employees (Penn State/Louisville) engage in illegal behavior...slam the shit out of them.
The fact that institutionally UNC was sending hundreds of athletes to sham classes should have been punished severely.

But...if an agent lends money to a family to get in their good graces later, and the school knows nothing, that's not the same thing.

Taking the postseason away and scholarships punishes the school in a lot of ways. High level kids don't want to come, loss of tournament revenue, etc.

But it also punishes people (fans, the next classes of athletes, etc) who had nothing to do with it. At least Louisville flushed the coaches/admin.

Institutional control is hard to define and must be hell on head coaches.

[Xville]

And that’s a “good” thing? You encourage it? Sure it happens. But shouldn’t it be the aim of any punishment to limit the collateral damage to the innocent, while adequately punishing the guilty? The death penalty is a last resort kind of thing because it does punish the innocent. It does punish those who have absolutely nothing they are guilty of. What if it was YOU that had YOUR opportunities taken away because of the misdeeds of others? How would you feel about it then? I’ll bet you wouldn’t be so ready to call for death then. What if it was your kid that was a member of a team that got the death penalty, but had done nothing wrong? I’ll bet you might feel different then.

Maybe UL deserves the death penalty. But there are plenty of people that have had teams fold up under them for one reason or another, and not because of anything they did. Can you give them back those opportunities that were taken away? Since you can’t give those people back THIER life, I suggest you be a little more hesitant to call for the death of others.

I encourage that athletic departments that harbor rapists, child sexual predators, and murderers should disappear yes

[XUGRAD80]

I encourage that athletic departments that harbor rapists, child sexual predators, and murderers should disappear yes

It’s not a DEPARTMENT that is doing these things...it’s individuals! You think the members of the women’s swimming team had anything to do with those things!? The men’s soccer team? The gymnastics teams? Why do you want to punish people that the only mistake they made was to happen to be at the same university at the same time these things were going on and being covered up by others?

You want to say that the coaches that knew and did nothing should be punished? Fine. You want to say that the people in the administration that knew and did nothing should be punished? Fine! But why punish all of the other people that knew nothing, did nothing wrong, and have nothing that they deserve to be punished for?

Why do you want to punish innocent people?

[Xville]

It’s not a DEPARTMENT that is doing these things...it’s individuals! You think the members of the women’s swimming team had anything to do with those things!? The men’s soccer team? The gymnastics teams? Why do you want to punish people that the only mistake they made was to happen to be at the same university at the same time these things were going on and being covered up by others?

You want to say that the coaches that knew and did nothing should be punished? Fine. You want to say that the people in the administration that knew and did nothing should be punished? Fine! But why punish all of the other people that knew nothing, did nothing wrong, and have nothing that they deserve to be punished for?

Why do you want to punish innocent people?

Since you are so against punishing "innocent" people, what do you think should be done to louisville now? Since Pitino apparently didnt know anything, I guess he is innocent and shouldn't have been fired..same with jurich, the athletic director.

The head of the athletic department knew what was going on and did nothing at both Baylor and penn state. Sucks that innocent people get caught in the crosshairs but it is what it is. That's what happens in the real world.

[Xville]

Yes, but it rarely gets this far and deep as it is at UL. They let Pitino stick around far longer than they should have. Whatever sanctions come from this.....they will be deserving of them for sure.

So then you have no problem hurting innocent people either?

You are very naive to think this kind of stuff doesnt happen at most of the power 5 schools..you think Adidas is the only shot company that is dirty? You think other schools dont have stripper parties? Come on. I'm not saying that louisville shouldn't be punished because they should but to say it's rare I think is pretty naive.

[XUGRAD80]

The head of the athletic department knew what was going on and did nothing at both Baylor and penn state. Sucks that innocent people get caught in the crosshairs but it is what it is. That's what happens in the real world.

So fire them! Charge them with a crime! Punish them! The idea that something sucks and “it is what it is” doesn’t make it right! Punish the guilty. Protect the innocent. Isn’t that want justice is supposed to be about? Or are you just looking for vegence?

Let me ask you a serious question......have you ever been punished, I mean really punished in a life changing way, for something that you were not just innocent of, but not even envolved in any way with? Found guilty of, and punished for, something that others did? Others that you were just barely even associated with?

We aren’t just discussing an institution here... a university.....we are discussing the lives of hundreds of innocent PEOPLE. If you think that it’s OK to just write those people off as being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that they just need to realize “it is what it is” and deal with it.....you got bigger problems than what happens to UL.

[Xville]

So fire them! Charge them with a crime! Punish them! The idea that something sucks and “it is what it is” doesn’t make it right! Punish the guilty. Protect the innocent. Isn’t that want justice is supposed to be about? Or are you just looking for vegence?

Let me ask you a serious question......have you ever been punished, I mean really punished in a life changing way, for something that you were not just innocent of, but not even envolved in any way with? Found guilty of, and punished for, something that others did? Others that you were just barely even associated with?

We aren’t just discussing an institution here... a university.....we are discussing the lives of hundreds of innocent PEOPLE. If you think that it’s OK to just write those people off as being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that they just need to realize “it is what it is” and deal with it.....you got bigger problems than what happens to UL.

Answer my question first what do you think should happen to louisville now?

[XUGRAD80]

Answer my question first what do you think should happen to louisville now?


Heck if I know. I don't have all of the facts. The trials haven't finished yet. I don't have the U of L NCAA file in front of me. I don't sit back and just make judgements based on things I've read in the media or on the internet. I'm not dodging the question either. I honestly don't know.


I only know that whatever penalty or penalties they face I would want to make sure that they were designed to keep these things from ever happening again. Part of that is going to be punishment for wrongdoing, but that punishment should not be done for vengeance, but rather so that it serves as a future deterrent for the UofL and others in the NCAA. I would also be extremely cautious that the innocent within the athletic department were as little effected as possible. I'm much more in favor of individuals being given the "death penalty" than I am whole programs. I'm certainly NOT in favor of whole departments being punished for the deeds of a few. I'm also much in favor of letting the legal system deal with broken laws and the individuals that broke them. Keep in mind that covering up a crime is a crime itself. So if the AD or others are involved in covering up criminal behavior, they are subject to legal prosecution themselves. Participation in college athletics is not a right, it's a privilege, and that includes being a coach or administrator. If they can't play by the rules, that right can and should be taken away. That is the NCAA's role here. They decide who broke their rules and who should have that privilege taken away, either for a period of time or permanently.


Start by possibly giving coaches, players, and administrators who broke the rules permanent bans, especially if they are repeat offenders. The school can seek damages from them through the legal system, as they are doing, if they desire.

[Xville]

Heck if I know. I don't have all of the facts. The trials haven't finished yet. I don't have the U of L NCAA file in front of me. I don't sit back and just make judgements based on things I've read in the media or on the internet. I'm not dodging the question either. I honestly don't know.


I only know that whatever penalty or penalties they face I would want to make sure that they were designed to keep these things from ever happening again. Part of that is going to be punishment for wrongdoing, but that punishment should not be done for vengeance, but rather so that it serves as a future deterrent for the UofL and others in the NCAA. I would also be extremely cautious that the innocent within the athletic department were as little effected as possible. I'm much more in favor of individuals being given the "death penalty" than I am whole programs. I'm certainly NOT in favor of whole departments being punished for the deeds of a few. I'm also much in favor of letting the legal system deal with broken laws and the individuals that broke them. Keep in mind that covering up a crime is a crime itself. So if the AD or others are involved in covering up criminal behavior, they are subject to legal prosecution themselves. Participation in college athletics is not a right, it's a privilege, and that includes being a coach or administrator. If they can't play by the rules, that right can and should be taken away. That is the NCAA's role here. They decide who broke their rules and who should have that privilege taken away, either for a period of time or permanently.


Start by possibly giving coaches, players, and administrators who broke the rules permanent bans, especially if they are repeat offenders. The school can seek damages from them through the legal system, as they are doing, if they desire.

Ok let me ask a different way then. If louisville hypothetically is guilty of what they did, what should happen to them?

Btw all signs point to the fact that Pitino knew nothing so though I think the guy is a slimeball anyways, he is one of your innocent parties.

[XUGRAD80]

Ok let me ask a different way then. If louisville hypothetically is guilty of what they did, what should happen to them?

Btw all signs point to the fact that Pitino knew nothing so though I think the guy is a slimeball anyways, he is one of your innocent parties.


Tell me what individuals did? Tell me just who is guilty of what? The UofL is not on trial here. Individuals are. People who are in a position of power can be found responsible for the wrongdoing, even if they aren’t directly knowledgeable of the wrongdoing.....lack of institutional control, I think it’s called. There is a difference between being guilty of something and being responsible for something. But in both cases there are consequences. Pitino could actually be not guilty of actually doing anything, but he could also be found responsible for not making sure that those things didn’t happen. Same is true at other programs.

A manager that doesn’t make sure that company rules are being followed in his department or unit is not a good manager. He is responsible for making sure those rules/policies are being followed. If he fails to live up to those responsibilities he will likely be removed. In that situation, do you fire everyone in the department? Or just the ones that are responsible? Do you shut down the unit? Close down the department?

You seem to want to just blow it all up and punish not only those that are not guilty of anything, but are also who are not in any way responsible for those things happening.

So try answering my question.......why?

[bleedXblue]

So then you have no problem hurting innocent people either?

You are very naive to think this kind of stuff doesnt happen at most of the power 5 schools..you think Adidas is the only shot company that is dirty? You think other schools dont have stripper parties? Come on. I'm not saying that louisville shouldn't be punished because they should but to say it's rare I think is pretty naive.

I think impacting others is just part of what happens with these things........

I'm not naive. I know these things happen. It's what the school does when they learn about it or its made public. UL should have moved on Pitino right away.

[Xville]

Tell me what individuals did? Tell me just who is guilty of what? The UofL is not on trial here. Individuals are. People who are in a position of power can be found responsible for the wrongdoing, even if they aren’t directly knowledgeable of the wrongdoing.....lack of institutional control, I think it’s called. There is a difference between being guilty of something and being responsible for something. But in both cases there are consequences. Pitino could actually be not guilty of actually doing anything, but he could also be found responsible for not making sure that those things didn’t happen. Same is true at other programs.

A manager that doesn’t make sure that company rules are being followed in his department or unit is not a good manager. He is responsible for making sure those rules/policies are being followed. If he fails to live up to those responsibilities he will likely be removed. In that situation, do you fire everyone in the department? Or just the ones that are responsible? Do you shut down the unit? Close down the department?

You seem to want to just blow it all up and punish not only those that are not guilty of anything, but are also who are not in any way responsible for those things happening.

So try answering my question.......why?

Because there has to be some kind of punishment for the school. The ncaa is responsible for the integrity of the game and its members. If one if its members (school, athletic department, players, coaches etc) is continually breaking the rules then yes innocent people may be harmed and that sucks but that's life. There has to be some deterrence at the department or school level. Only a few at Enron were breaking the rules, many innocent people lost their jobs.

[muskiefan82]

Hmmmm......so if a player takes money to attend a school and that is proven, should they have to pay back the scholarship they received from the school? Should any coach who is found guilty of providing benefits to athletes be on the hook for the amount of that scholarship? Or is that just going to make the money higher to make sure they can pay the fine? There is nothing easy about this; however, if UL is penalized with no post season for multiple seasons, I do think those players who had nothing to do with it should be allowed to transfer without penalty.

[XUGRAD80]

Because there has to be some kind of punishment for the school. The ncaa is responsible for the integrity of the game and its members. If one if its members (school, athletic department, players, coaches etc) is continually breaking the rules then yes innocent people may be harmed and that sucks but that's life. There has to be some deterrence at the department or school level. Only a few at Enron were breaking the rules, many innocent people lost their jobs.

You make it sound like it’s inevitable and there should be no concern that it happens. The fact that it does happen doesn’t mean that it has to happen or that it is just if it does.

You’ve said that the elimination of a whole department at some schools is what SHOULD happen. Why does “some deterrence at the department or school level” have to mean the elimination of a whole department? Why can’t it just be the elimination of the people involved? The people responsible? A lifetime ban for those people involved would be more to my liking.

[Xville]

You make it sound like it’s inevitable and there should be no concern that it happens. The fact that it does happen doesn’t mean that it has to happen or that it is just if it does.

You’ve said that the elimination of a whole department at some schools is what SHOULD happen. Why does “some deterrence at the department or school level” have to mean the elimination of a whole department? Why can’t it just be the elimination of the people involved? The people responsible? A lifetime ban for those people involved would be more to my liking.

I dont know if legally that will ever be possible but I agree that would be great. However, I think there has to be a deterrent to the school as well...the school cant get away with just everyone is fired and let's move on. What deters a school from cheating their asses off?

[bleedXblue]

I dont know if legally that will ever be possible but I agree that would be great. However, I think there has to be a deterrent to the school as well...the school cant get away with just everyone is fired and let's move on. What deters a school from cheating their asses off?

Exactly where I have been. The school has culpability. THEY made the decision to hire these individuals. THEY in many cases made the decision to not FIRE guys like Pitino when they could /should have.

It's the only deterrent that the NCAA has...........and they need to use it, or whats stopping everyone from cheating .......

[GoMuskies]

Exactly where I have been. The school has culpability. THEY made the decision to hire these individuals. THEY in many cases made the decision to not FIRE guys like Pitino when they could /should have.

Yes, but every single person involved in that is gone. Every one. Who are you deterring?

[XUGRAD80]

I dont know if legally that will ever be possible but I agree that would be great. However, I think there has to be a deterrent to the school as well...the school cant get away with just everyone is fired and let's move on. What deters a school from cheating their asses off?


How did “the school” cheat? Did the science department cheat? The history depart? The band? The cheerleaders? Did any other coaches and players in other sports cheat? Did other coaches, in other sports, molest kids? Did other players in other sports, commit rape? The football or basketball teams are not “the school”. If the SCHOOL administration allowed such things to go on, they will be subject to discipline per the terms of their contracts. Usually this is enforced by the school board of regents. If they are not disciplined by the board, and even if they are, the ATHLETIC Department can be disciplined by the NCAA according to the RULES. But the NCAA RULES don’t say that if the football team is cheating, you punish the swimming team. You punish the people involved.
You seem to want the “school” punished for something that individuals within a small department of the school have done. This whole debate is about U of L BASKETBALL...read the title.....it’s not about punishing the school.

If you are worried about deterrent....don’t you think that the loss of jobs, and millions of dollars, by those involved is a deterrent to those that follow? If we start eyeing some people going to jail, that’s going to be a deterrent. If we somehow see the money dry up, that will be a deterrent because it will take away some of the incentive to cheat.

I’m afraid that there will always be cheating. Punishing innocent people is not going to change that.

[bleedXblue]

Yes, but every single person involved in that is gone. Every one. Who are you deterring?

You are deterring every other school that sees the consequences of not policing themselves?

[bleedXblue]

How did “the school” cheat? Did the science department cheat? The history depart? The band? The cheerleaders? Did any other coaches and players in other sports cheat? Did other coaches, in other sports, molest kids? Did other players in other sports, commit rape? The football or basketball teams are not “the school”. If the SCHOOL administration allowed such things to go on, they will be subject to discipline per the terms of their contracts. Usually this is enforced by the school board of regents. If they are not disciplined by the board, and even if they are, the ATHLETIC Department can be disciplined by the NCAA according to the RULES. But the NCAA RULES don’t say that if the football team is cheating, you punish the swimming team. You punish the people involved.
You seem to want the “school” punished for something that individuals within a small department of the school have done. This whole debate is about U of L BASKETBALL...read the title.....it’s not about punishing the school.

If you are worried about deterrent....don’t you think that the loss of jobs, and millions of dollars, by those involved is a deterrent to those that follow? If we start eyeing some people going to jail, that’s going to be a deterrent. If we somehow see the money dry up, that will be a deterrent because it will take away some of the incentive to cheat.

I’m afraid that there will always be cheating. Punishing innocent people is not going to change that.

you are over the top.......being a bit dramatic arent you?

[MHettel]

Why do you want to punish innocent people?

If an innocent person is punished, it is a byproduct of the misdeeds of the person that is guilty. If the guilty party would not have committed the infaction / crime then teh innocent party would not have been punished.

Dont deflect.

[Xville]

How did “the school” cheat? Did the science department cheat? The history depart? The band? The cheerleaders? Did any other coaches and players in other sports cheat? Did other coaches, in other sports, molest kids? Did other players in other sports, commit rape? The football or basketball teams are not “the school”. If the SCHOOL administration allowed such things to go on, they will be subject to discipline per the terms of their contracts. Usually this is enforced by the school board of regents. If they are not disciplined by the board, and even if they are, the ATHLETIC Department can be disciplined by the NCAA according to the RULES. But the NCAA RULES don’t say that if the football team is cheating, you punish the swimming team. You punish the people involved.
You seem to want the “school” punished for something that individuals within a small department of the school have done. This whole debate is about U of L BASKETBALL...read the title.....it’s not about punishing the school.

If you are worried about deterrent....don’t you think that the loss of jobs, and millions of dollars, by those involved is a deterrent to those that follow? If we start eyeing some people going to jail, that’s going to be a deterrent. If we somehow see the money dry up, that will be a deterrent because it will take away some of the incentive to cheat.

I’m afraid that there will always be cheating. Punishing innocent people is not going to change that.

The athletic dept is part of the school, thus the school cheated. You are being extremely dramatic.

[Xville]

You make it sound like it’s inevitable and there should be no concern that it happens. The fact that it does happen doesn’t mean that it has to happen or that it is just if it does.

You’ve said that the elimination of a whole department at some schools is what SHOULD happen. Why does “some deterrence at the department or school level” have to mean the elimination of a whole department? Why can’t it just be the elimination of the people involved? The people responsible? A lifetime ban for those people involved would be more to my liking.

By the way the only schools I was referring to when I said entire departments had to do with penn state and Baylor harboring rapists, murderers and child predators.

[GoMuskies]

You are deterring every other school that sees the consequences of not policing themselves?

But do you need to punish the school more to deter other schools? The Boards, Presidents, ADs, and coaches already see they're going to get shitcanned if the school cheats. Those are the only people with the power to institute a compliance culture. I'm guessing they only care about saving their own skin. Can't imagine they care if the school gets punished after they're gone.

[bleedXblue]

But do you need to punish the school more to deter other schools? The Boards, Presidents, ADs, and coaches already see they're going to get shitcanned if the school cheats. Those are the only people with the power to institute a compliance culture. I'm guessing they only care about saving their own skin. Can't imagine they care if the school gets punished after they're gone.

Schools have BOD's and leadership well beyond the President/AD/Coaches

Schools also have a lot riding when it comes to reputation and their place as an "institution" of learning. Hell, SMU is STILL dealing with the ramifications of what happened 30 years ago.

There's no perfect solution, but to simply walk away and ignore whats happened (when schools clean house) is NOT the solution.

[GoMuskies]

But in this case the Board also turned over. There is literally no one in the chain of responsibility left. Unless you're trying to punish the governor, and in this case he's probably thrilled if you punish the school.

[bleedXblue]

But in this case the Board also turned over. There is literally no one in the chain of responsibility left. Unless you're trying to punish the governor, and in this case he's probably thrilled if you punish the school.

The have hundreds of high level leaders that are still there......

And to the new President (making millions) and the new AD (making millions) and the new head BB coach (making millions), I have absolutely NO sympathy for them.

They took their million dollar jobs knowing EXACTLY what they were getting into.

[GoMuskies]

Sure, they have lots of high level leaders. None of whom would have, or could have, had anything to do with the culture of the basketball program. It's not a matter of having sympathy for the new leaders. It's just, what's the point of punishing them for something none of them had anything to do with?

[XUGRAD80]

Can’t see how me saying that it’s wrong to punish those that are innocent....... is being “dramatic”.

But someone calling for the complete elimination of a whole department, made up of hundreds of people.....mostly college students who weren’t even in the school when a lot of this happened, and some of whom may even have been victims....and none of whom who are guilty of the crimes involved?

Now, I’d consider THAT a little over the top.

And just plain wrong.

[JTG]

It's simple, 1 year of no tv, 3 years no tournament. Any current players can transfer elsewhere and play immediately. Games are still played, just no reward at the end of the season. No current players are punished. AmIright ? Hell yes.

[American X]

If a football program that raped kids is allowed to continue, Louisville should not worry too much.

[muskiefan82]

It's simple, 1 year of no tv, 3 years no tournament. Any current players can transfer elsewhere and play immediately. Games are still played, just no reward at the end of the season. No current players are punished. AmIright ? Hell yes.

This seems pretty reasonable to me

[xu82]

This seems pretty reasonable to me

That seems reasonable to me....for paying recruits alone. Add in the brothel scandal, and that they felt they could just blow off getting caught, and I feel more is appropriate. Sure, most of the major players are gone, but the institution has to take one on the chin for that behavior. It’s almost like taking down banners (which is goofy in it’s own way) when you have a whole new crowd in charge. If only symbolically, something substantial has to be done.

Maybe I’m just cranky, but you can’t do this and expect no repercussions. Again and again.

But the NCAA will be the NCAA.

[xubrew]

I think it is more obvious now than it has ever been before that the NCAA can only do what their due process allows, and that they cannot use any arbitrary power to discipline any school

The NCAA wanted to nail Penn State. They looked at giving the death penalty, but couldn't because they weren't repeat violators and it didn't fit the definition. So they opted to fine them $60 million and reduce them to a virtual FCS club by stripping them from as many scholarships and recruiting contacts as they possibly could and giving them a ban for four years. The problem was that Penn State took the NCAA to court, and the end result was that the NCAA had not given Penn State due process and overstepped itself, so they ended up lifting the penalties and returning some of the money. If you feel the NCAA was not hard enough on Penn State, then understand that even had they done more, the court would have ruled against them and they would have had to rescind the penalties.

Right about this time was the whole fiasco with Miami. Due to the NCAA not having any subpoena power, or any control whatsoever over people who don't work in college athletics, they tried to have an attorney gather what they needed against Miami in order to nail them. As all of you may remember, that didn't work. The NCAA had to admit their misconduct and basically drop the case, allowing virtually everyone involved to get away with it.

So after getting two pretty big black eyes like that it had clipped their wings a little bit. When everything was happening with North Carolina, there were people at the NCAA that again wanted to crush them. The problem was there was nothing in the compliance manual that addressed that specific violation. I think the NCAA's legal counsel advised them (correctly) that if they smacked down North Carolina then they'd lose in court (AGAIN) if UNC sued them, which they almost certainly would have.

Louisville is different because they could give them the death penalty, and still be within their due process. Having said that, the NCAA now has more of a tendency to target individuals than they do entire departments. The reason is that people like Bruce Pearl, and Kelvin Sampson (who crash landed multiple programs) and the like don't mind it a bit if a school gets put on probation for what they did. They'll just go and get another job someplace else. So while I wouldn't be entirely floored if Louisville got the death penalty, I'm guessing that they won't for that reason.

As far as Penn State and Baylor, multiple people went to prison. At least one person, and possibly a second, will likely die in prison. I suppose the NCAA could slap those two individuals with a show-cause, but doing that would strike me as rather silly. It was a law enforcement issue and I think law enforcement handled it rather well. There wasn't really much left for the NCAA to do after that, especially after the court made them rescind what they did to Penn State and throw out what they were trying to do to Miami.

[Xville]

The biggest thing for me is how is kentucky and duke cheating without getting caught? Whatever system they both have must be extremely intricate and sophisticated. Its amazing.

Also, now that the NCAA has plausible evidence that Self knew and engaged in the payment of recruits, I'm sure that Kansas will only get a slap on the wrist.

There are 4 programs in college basketball that no matter what they do, will never get in much trouble...Kansas, UK, Duke and UNC. Just way too important to the cashflow of the NCAA.

[Juice]

The biggest thing for me is how is kentucky and duke cheating without getting caught? Whatever system they both have must be extremely intricate and sophisticated. Its amazing.

Also, now that the NCAA has plausible evidence that Self knew and engaged in the payment of recruits, I'm sure that Kansas will only get a slap on the wrist.

There are 4 programs in college basketball that no matter what they do, will never get in much trouble...Kansas, UK, Duke and UNC. Just way too important to the cashflow of the NCAA.

Kansas has looked the worse in this trial. Zion Williamson was brought up in connection with Kansas yesterday. I wonder if he turned down money from Kansas and just decided to go to Duke without getting paid.

[xubrew]

The biggest thing for me is how is kentucky and duke cheating without getting caught? Whatever system they both have must be extremely intricate and sophisticated. Its amazing.

Also, now that the NCAA has plausible evidence that Self knew and engaged in the payment of recruits, I'm sure that Kansas will only get a slap on the wrist.

There are 4 programs in college basketball that no matter what they do, will never get in much trouble...Kansas, UK, Duke and UNC. Just way too important to the cashflow of the NCAA.

I'm not an expert because I really don't care about pro sports, much less the business side of pro sports, but I don't think any of Kentucky's players ever signed with ASM. That was who got raided. If CAA ever gets raided then they may be in trouble.

I also don't think the NCAA is going to do anything to anyone until the FBI is through. And, I guess that's an okay approach to take.

Most people don't seem to understand what Louisville TECHNICALLY got in trouble for. They used ineligible players. That's it. They had to vacate all the games and pay back all the money they made from the NCAA Tournament that involved them using ineligible players. Hers is the important part. The reason those players were ineligible was because Louisville's own compliance officer declared them ineligible. I think that had Louisville not done that, then they probably wouldn't have had to vacate anything. At least not yet. But it was their own internal actions that led to those players being declared ineligible retroactively, and thus them having to vacate any game that any of them appeared in. Kinda like criminal court. If you plead guilty, then you're going to be found guilty.

[Masterofreality]

If anybody ever investigated 'World Wide Wes" then Kentucky would be thrown off the face of the Earth.

[xubrew]

If anybody ever investigated 'World Wide Wes" then Kentucky would be thrown off the face of the Earth.

Maybe. I think the issue with him is that while he doesn't have any real regard for the NCAA, the players that work with him actually like him, and there aren't an abundance of examples about he or anyone else with CAA (I think that's who he's still associated with) ended up ruining people's careers and stealing their money while he was "managing" it and "advising" them. So the FBI is probably less likely to bother them.

[xubrew]

Just curious...

Would you (or anyone else) recognize Worldwide Wes if you saw him??

Everyone has seen him. He's everywhere. The nickname suits him very well. Very few people realize it's him when they do see him. It's actually kind of funny. I've had a few experiences where I've been out at a bar, or at someone's house, or wherever, and overheard people talking about WWW. Then there is Wes. On TV. Sitting right there. And, it's obvious that the people talking about him didn't even realize it was him.

That's a rather remarkable superpower he's got to be considered that infamous, and be seemingly everywhere, but yet somehow always be unnoticed.

[paulxu]

You could make some distinctions with some of these situations.
In the Penn State deal, criminal laws were broken by the assistant coach's actions, and the justice system would handle it.

In the current case, I saw where the jury is deliberating on the shoe companies deals with families/players/coaches.
The defense has admitted it broke NCAA rules but no criminal laws.

If they are successful, are found not guilty of a "crime," will their admittance of breaking NCAA rules actually get them any NCAA penalties?

[XUGRAD80]

No matter what the jury decides, it’s just the beginning. Expect appeals to take possibly years to be extinguished.

[paulxu]

No matter what the jury decides, it’s just the beginning. Expect appeals to take possibly years to be extinguished.

If the result is not guilty as to these three defendants, I believe that's it for them. There aren't any appeals for that outcome.

[xubrew]

The whole case seems kind of nutty to me, but sometimes nutty wins out in court.

The federal government's case is that these guys committed wire fraud because they took actions that resulted in the players no longer being amateurs, and therefore defrauded the universities because the players at that point were basically useless due to NCAA rules. The 'wire fraud' comes in because I guess they used their cell phones.

That's......REALLY stretching it!! I don't like the guys that are on trial, but I'm not so sure they broke any laws, much less THAT law.

[XUGRAD80]

If the result is not guilty as to these three defendants, I believe that's it for them. There aren't any appeals for that outcome.

Sure there are....the feds lose and they can appeal to a higher court too. All they have to do is find a point of law to contend and a court sympathetic to their reasoning. Appeals happen all the time, and the feds don’t like losing on their own home court.

But this is all just speculation anyway, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.

[paulxu]

It may be possible for the government to appeal a civil case based on a "point of law" if the case doesn't go their way.

In a criminal trial, if the jury returns a "not guilty" verdict, there can not be an appeal by the government (double jeopardy).

(one strange situation is I think if the jury says "guilty"...and the judge overrules them on his own accord...it may be possible for the govnt to appeal. But no appeal is allowed on a "not guilty" jury verdict.)

[XUGRAD80]

It may be possible for the government to appeal a civil case based on a "point of law" if the case doesn't go their way.

In a criminal trial, if the jury returns a "not guilty" verdict, there can not be an appeal by the government (double jeopardy).

(one strange situation is I think if the jury says "guilty"...and the judge overrules them on his own accord...it may be possible for the govnt to appeal. But no appeal is allowed on a "not guilty" jury verdict.)

well, I'm certainly not a lawyer...so I stand corrected.

[xubrew]

Jury rules with the feds.

The schools were victims, and the perpetrators are guilty of wire fraud and defrauding the institutions because they stripped the players of their amateur statuses.

That makes me feel a little queasy. It seems to set a precedent that if you mess with the NCAA you could go to jail. Not sure how I feel about that.

[Xville]

Jury rules with the feds.

The schools were victims, and the perpetrators are guilty of wire fraud and defrauding the institutions because they stripped the players of their amateur statuses.

That makes me feel a little queasy. It seems to set a precedent that if you mess with the NCAA you could go to jail. Not sure how I feel about that.

Thats the biggest joke in all of this

[XUGRAD80]

Thats the biggest joke in all of this

I agree.....BUT from a LEGAL standpoint in regards to the charges in the case, it’s a correct ruling. But in any other sense it’s a total joke and I’m pretty sure the NCAA won’t see it that way in regards to NCAA rules being broken. I hope the NCAA hammers the schools and coaches involved, but I’m not holding my breath and expecting them to.

[sirthought]

I think they got it more wrong from a legal standpoint than anything else.

That's not defrauding anyone.

[XUBison]

Jury rules with the feds.

The schools were victims, and the perpetrators are guilty of wire fraud and defrauding the institutions because they stripped the players of their amateur statuses.

That makes me feel a little queasy. It seems to set a precedent that if you mess with the NCAA you could go to jail. Not sure how I feel about that.

The schools are victims? Like who, Louisville? They are the GD benefactors. Meanwhile, schools like Creighton, and even X to some degree, have their names dragged through the mud by these proceedings? Holy bullshit Batman.

[XUGRAD80]

Still more trials to go with other folks/schools involved, but this sets some kind of legal precedent I guess. Not sure it sets a precedent that messing with the NCAA gets someone in trouble though. They broke LAWS, not just rules.

Now if the NCAA sues the people involved, and wins, that would be something else.

Of course, Addidas and the head coaches are all trying to make it sound like it was just some rogue individuals that did things that they didn’t know anything about.......yeah sure, I believe that too. Got any bridges you want to sell?

[xubrew]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/guilty-verdicts-against-adidas-employees-sets-the-table-for-the-ncaa-to-wreak-havoc-on-coaches-and-schools/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[paulxu]

Nah...the NCAA will just say it was a criminal deal. The criminals went through the justice system and are guilty.

Schools? Meh.

[xu82]

It seems to me the people who could be at the most risk are the people who least deserve it. They got Al Capone for not paying his taxes. How many of these families reported any taxes on any of this nonsense?

[Xville]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/guilty-verdicts-against-adidas-employees-sets-the-table-for-the-ncaa-to-wreak-havoc-on-coaches-and-schools/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The media keeps saying this as if it's a certain fact that the ncaa is going to come down on these schools. If we have learned anything thru the years, it's that the ncaa is a gutless, hypocritical and waste of an organization that will never do the right thing.

[xubrew]

The people who were on trial were not people that I like, or that I feel sorry for. But for all the crap they did, wasn't there some other charge they could have been prosecuted for?? I don't really know what that would have been, but couldn't they have come up with ANYTHING else??

Rick Pitino was a victim. Louisville was a victim. That's basically what the jury ruling said. The schools who were getting these players were just unwilling participants in an elaborate scam to victimize the schools by un-amateuring the players.

Wow.

https://apnews.com/685a14b560e44128b59b04b8e9285cdc

[xubrew]

The media keeps saying this as if it's a certain fact that the ncaa is going to come down on these schools. If we have learned anything thru the years, it's that the ncaa is a gutless, hypocritical and waste of an organization that will never do the right thing.

I don't know what the NCAA is going to do. I could guess, but I know that's all it would be.

The issue that I can't seem to wrap my head around is a jury's decision to look at a situation where two parties (really three) were all working together and knowing they were breaking NCAA rules, and decide that one of those parties was a victim, and therefore the other party should go to prison as if NCAA rules are somehow now the federal law.

I just....don't.....even know what to think about that.

[XUGRAD80]

I think that it’s more a decision that the schools that did not get the players involved were the victims. They lost out on the recruits because of the things that the people involved did. That is what made these things illegal....because they caused harm to the other schools. At least that’s how I’m interpreting this ruling.

Read today and interesting question.....will the parties involved in the other trials yet to come be inclined to make some kind of plea bargain deal with the feds now? Also read that only about 20% of the actual information gathered by the federal investigation was even used in this trial. There are many more people and schools involved, but those people may not have broken laws, only NCAA rules.

[Blue Blooded-05]

I’m speechless...

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2018/10/25/university-louisville-unveils-adidas-funded-ethical-leadership-project/1755029002/

[DART87]

That last quote by the AD referring to the Adidas relationship is priceless: "I think it's a time to use that partnership to both of our advantages"...isn't that what got them in trouble?

[GoMuskies]

I’m speechless...

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2018/10/25/university-louisville-unveils-adidas-funded-ethical-leadership-project/1755029002/

You guys probably haven't seen the end zone expansion at Louisville's football stadium. This is not a photoshop.

https://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/news/2018/09/05/u-of-l-shows-off-cardinal-stadium-expansion-ahead.html

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/09/05/PLOU/7b16db34-68b0-476a-98fe-952f04df01d1-AJ4T1643.jpg?width=520&height=390&fit=bounds&auto=webp

[STL_XUfan]

I’m speechless...

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2018/10/25/university-louisville-unveils-adidas-funded-ethical-leadership-project/1755029002/

Next week they will announce the David Duke Diversity Scholarship award winner.

[X-band '01]

You guys probably haven't seen the end zone expansion at Louisville's football stadium. This is not a photoshop.

https://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/news/2018/09/05/u-of-l-shows-off-cardinal-stadium-expansion-ahead.html

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/09/05/PLOU/7b16db34-68b0-476a-98fe-952f04df01d1-AJ4T1643.jpg?width=520&height=390&fit=bounds&auto=webp

All Day I Dream About Strippers?

[bleedXblue]

Chris Mack, of St X and Xavier upbringing CHOSE to work at this place.

[GoMuskies]

Chris Mack, of Cincinnati St X and Xavier upbringing CHOSE to work at this place.

Fixed so as not to muddy the good St. X name.

[paulxu]

Lots of phone calls:

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/25105562/call-records-link-arizona-sean-miller-creighton-greg-mcdermott-brian-bowen-ii-recruitment