Only one concern now

[Xuperman]

Now that coach Steele has most certainly kept the train on the rails and there doesn't seem to be any player defections on the horizon. BUT there is something that is a major concern and it has nothing to do with basketball. It is the FOOTBALL schools of the power 5 that some are predicting they may form there own governing body and separate from the NCAA. I know it is only being speculated and it would be years away, but IF it happened you would have a "NBA/ABA" situation for non P5 schools. Sorry, I worry about stuff like this...:shocked:

[GoMuskies]

I can't imagine a scenario in which the Big East wasn't invited along for all other sports. Maybe even the American (the rest will need someone to beat up on).

[xu95]

I agree with Go, except the part about the American. If things do separate, I can definitely see a scenario where they bring the Big East along for the ride.

xu95

[Xuperman]

Maybe, but the P5 already has made football a requirement in the individual conferences. They COULD keep it simple and use that template for the new "league". If non football schools were included, wouldn't they be exempt from any football revenue? Second class citizens of sort?

[GoMuskies]

Football isn't an absolute requirement in P5 conferences. Notre Dame doesn't play football in a P5 conference. Neither does Kansas, really.

[Drew]

Now that coach Steele has most certainly kept the train on the rails and there doesn't seem to be any player defections on the horizon. BUT there is something that is a major concern and it has nothing to do with basketball. It is the FOOTBALL schools of the power 5 that some are predicting they may form there own governing body and separate from the NCAA. I know it is only being speculated and it would be years away, but IF it happened you would have a "NBA/ABA" situation for non P5 schools. Sorry, I worry about stuff like this...:shocked:


Wish I could assuage your fears but there really is nothing Xavier/Big East can do about this except keep on winning and improving their brand. If the P5 does split we can only ask to join. If they say no, there really is nothing we can do.

[Xuperman]

Kansas, that is hilarious!! Of course Notre Dame is in the club because football is the straw that stirs the shake. I think they would poach a hand full of Big enrollment universities with established football programs that ALSO floor consistently /potentially good basketball teams. UConn, Memphis, BYU, UC, UCF, USF and maybe even something like UMass. Use these schools to fill holes in the current 5 conferences or do some realignment and form a 6th.

[Drew]

I should note that I don't see this happening any time soon. What does the P5 have to gain by leaving? They pretty much get everything they want right now.

[Xuperman]

I should note that I don't see this happening any time soon. What does the P5 have to gain by leaving? They pretty much get everything they want right now.

Because they will have to start PAYING players at some point and the NCAA as a governing body is twisting itself into a pretzel trying to figure out who/how to do it. The NCAA is a severely flawed institution in desperate need of reform. The big money football schools don't have the patience or faith in many cases that they can. This whole quandary is about the TV football money that is exclusively generated by the P5.

[muskienick]

Wish I could assuage your fears but there really is nothing Xavier/Big East can do about this except keep on winning and improving their brand. If the P5 does split we can only ask to join. If they say no, there really is nothing we can do.

Actually, we could also bargain with them to designate a selection committee consisting of equal numbers of the two organizations of well-established AD's from both groups to select the best teams from each organization to challenge for the overall Basketball winner of a National Collegiate D-1 basketball championship. If that were seen as too contentious, the two organizations could simply agree to pit the winners of their own organizations' basketball championship to a "Super Bowl College Basketball Championship" (similar to the old NFL champ vs AFL champ game). Another incentive we could provide them would be to partner with them in agreeing to allow each group's member teams to play out-of-conference games against the other group's teams. Otherwise, we would simply deny them the right to schedule NCAA teams as part of their non-Conference basketball schedules. We'd still be able to play games against the AAC and other schools in non-Power five football Conferences, but they would be restricted to the teams in their 5 Conferences for basketball out-of-conference games.

Just a thought.

[xudash]

I am actually rather adamant about this issue, and am not worried in the least about it for the following reasons:

1. The P5 are primarily concerned about solving for football when they are concerned about solving for anything. They've essentially solved for that already and don't need to break away from the NCAA because of anything having to do with football, and certainly won't break away from the NCAA due to other sports, including basketball.

2. The bigger reason is the existing business model which is the NCAAT. It is inclusive. It is built on the foundation of drama and the notion of David and Goliath. It truly has become its own "thing", with even casual sports fans getting caught up in bracket challenges and game watching. ALL OF WHAT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT HAS PRESENTLY BECOME IS WHAT DRIVES ITS SUBSTANTIAL MEDIA MARKET VALUE. There is no way on God's green earth that the P5 could ever hope to extract from CBS, et al a contract that would equate to what the existing tournament provides. Not even close. It's worse than that for the P5: the amount of ill will they would generate from such an action would be extraordinary.

3. At the end of the day, the bid distribution list for the way things are done now would certainly appear to be appealing to the P5; it may ebb and flow between them, but they're collectively dominating the Tournament's bids. They have nothing to complain about in that regard.

I'm just not worried about this ever happening.

[Drew]

Because they will have to start PAYING players at some point and the NCAA as a governing body is twisting itself into a pretzel trying to figure out who/how to do it. The NCAA is a severely flawed institution in desperate need of reform. The big money football schools don't have the patience or faith in many cases that they can. This whole quandary is about the TV football money that is exclusively generated by the P5.

The NCAA is controlled by the P5. So if the P5 want to start paying the players then the NCAA will change its rules to allow that. The NCAA doesn't allow it because the P5 doesn't want it, simply put.

[Xuperman]

The NCAA is controlled by the P5. So if the P5 want to start paying the players then the NCAA will change its rules to allow that. The NCAA doesn't allow it because the P5 doesn't want it, simply put.

Where did you get that idea? Of course the P5 wants to pay players. They are tired of doing just that in the shadows and then enduring the severe penalties inflicted if caught. It's the Xavier's that want a simple scholarship to be the accepted currency. The NCAA is fighting pay for play because that kind of sweeping reform would be unfair to the vast percentage of players. That is why I fear the P5 will break away at some point. I see a day when money is actually discussed as part of the recruitment process.

[XU 87]

2. The bigger reason is the existing business model which is the NCAAT. It is inclusive. It is built on the foundation of drama and the notion of David and Goliath. It truly has become its own "thing", with even casual sports fans getting caught up in bracket challenges and game watching. ALL OF WHAT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT HAS PRESENTLY BECOME IS WHAT DRIVES ITS SUBSTANTIAL MEDIA MARKET VALUE. There is no way on God's green earth that the P5 could ever hope to extract from CBS, et al a contract that would equate to what the existing tournament provides. Not even close. It's worse than that for the P5: the amount of ill will they would generate from such an action would be extraordinary.



I agree. The NCAA tourney makes a lot of money. A big reason is because fans love watching the Loyolas playing and beating the Miamis of Florida.

[Drew]

Where did you get that idea? Of course the P5 wants to pay players. They are tired of doing just that in the shadows and then enduring the severe penalties inflicted if caught. It's the Xavier's that want a simple scholarship to be the accepted currency. The NCAA is fighting pay for play because that kind of sweeping reform would be unfair to the vast percentage of players. That is why I fear the P5 will break away at some point. I see a day when money is actually discussed as part of the recruitment process.

Do you have any quotes from P5 coaches or AD's that want to pay the players?

They have the most to lose because they are making the most money in the current arrangement.

[xudash]

Where did you get that idea? Of course the P5 wants to pay players. They are tired of doing just that in the shadows and then enduring the severe penalties inflicted if caught. It's the Xavier's that want a simple scholarship to be the accepted currency. The NCAA is fighting pay for play because that kind of sweeping reform would be unfair to the vast percentage of players. That is why I fear the P5 will break away at some point. I see a day when money is actually discussed as part of the recruitment process.

No they don't. Most of them are operating at a deficit already.

There go the P5 on the water in steel hauls, while the non P5 schools strain in a losing battle to keep up in plywood PT boats, but then there are those in the P5 on the water in nuclear powered aircraft carriers and other P5 members straining to keep up in WWII destroyers. THE P5 isn't, itself, a level playing field with aligned agendas.

[XUGRAD80]

follow the money!

[chico]

As usual, Dash makes a lot of sense. There's just too much money to be made with the current set-up of the hoops tourney that the P5 schools would be crazy to attempt to change it.

There's likely to be upheaval when the next round of TV contracts are up, but that's on the football side only. There's a dwindling supply of cash from television so the only thing probably left is for the top schools in the P5 to consolidate even more to try to keep as much revenue as possible.

[xudash]

why would they want to start paying for what is right now.....free labor? The only way I see that happening is if outside companies are willing to step up and supply the capital. Of course, that is a possibility IF the outside companies see that as a money maker for themselves. The shoe companies have "invested" money into programs because they see a return on that investment to their own bottom lines.

follow the money!

Amplify your thought: why do Ohio State, Alabama, USC, ND, Texas, etc. have to pay anyone to play for them? Their bargain is that they're the best and most visible in the game. They are the platforms through which a truly talented player will make their way into the NFL, where the real money resides.

The schools that need to pay to attract the talent cannot afford to do so, and may not end up with enough of a package deal to attract the talent anyway.

[GoMuskies]

Amplify your thought: why do Ohio State, Alabama, USC, ND, Texas, etc. have to pay anyone to play for them?

To convince them to come to their school instead of Ohio State, Alabama, USC, ND, Texas, etc.

[chico]

Basketball is where the real pressure to paying players is coming from. Football doesn't have the ability to generate support for a minor league where guys who don't want to go to college can go. Plus you're talking about having to pay 70-80 players vs. 10.

Basketball, however, seems to be moving that way, if Adam Silver's comments mean anything. He wants the G-League to have a much larger presence and will probably do away with the age requirement, meaning the one-and-dines will be a thing of the past.

[xudash]

To convince them to come to their school instead of Ohio State, Alabama, USC, ND, Texas, etc.

Which is exactly my point. How much would UC have to pay a 5* player to play in Nippert instead of the Shoe, AND is that a sustainable practice for UC with respect to affordability?

[xubrew]

Most (not all, but most) P5 coaches want to pay the players. Most P5 ADs and administrators want to pay the players. The problem is that the number of P5 university presidents that want to pay the players is virtually zero.

Believe it or not, most NCAA staffers would be in favor of paying the players, or at the very least allow them to be compensated more than they already are. Mark Emmert tried numerous times to get the cost of living stipend and couldn't get the schools to approve it. It wasn't until the P5 became autonomous and did it on their own, which they now have the power to do, that pretty much all the other schools in the NCAA adopted it.

I don't think the P5 is going to leave the NCAA. This has been speculated for almost thirty years now, and they've never done it. Three or four years ago when they were discussing 'Division Four' they ended up not doing it once they realized that they can pretty much already do what they want anyway, and the amount of football revenue that they have to share with the rest of the NCAA is virtually zero, so there really isn't any point in leaving.

I do think that players will be "paid" some day. Perhaps sooner rather than later. I think it will happen just the way the cost of attendance happened. the P5 will decide they'll want to do it, and since they have the power to do it then it will happen. Then, everyone else will decide to do it as well. That's pretty much how it works anymore. What I don't think will happen is that they'll just up and leave the NCAA. The reason I feel that way is simple. Doing that really doesn't give them anything that they don't already have.

[Drew]

Which is exactly my point. How much would UC have to pay a 5* player to play in Nippert instead of the Shoe, AND is that a sustainable practice for UC with respect to affordability?

Mick Cronin makes near 3 million if I remember correctly. Take a mil off of his salary and you can now give $100k to 10 scholarship players each. UC would then be the favorite to win it all every year.

[GoMuskies]

UC can't be in that arm's race. They're not today and never will be. But Ohio State, Alabama, Texas, etc. are desperately trying to beat each other out for the top of the line recruits.

Of course, if the Ohio States, Alabamas, Texases of the worlds want to form a cartel and promise not to pay anyone since they'll all end up with their fair share of the players...well, that would look a lot like the NCAA does today. :)

[xudash]

UC can't be in that arm's race. They're not today and never will be. But Ohio State, Alabama, Texas, etc. are desperately trying to beat each other out for the top of the line recruits.

Of course, if the Ohio States, Alabamas, Texases of the worlds want to form a cartel and promise not to pay anyone since they'll all end up with their fair share of the players...well, that would look a lot like the NCAA does today. :)

Which, once again, is my premise - which I probably could have been a little clearer about.

And XUBREW'S point about the school Presidents being against this should not be a shock to anyone.

[xudash]

Mick Cronin makes near 3 million if I remember correctly. Take a mil off of his salary and you can now give $100k to 10 scholarship players each. UC would then be the favorite to win it all every year.

Okay, you go tell the YTG to cough up one third of his package for this need. And I doubt UC would immediately become the favorite to win it all every year where they otherwise would have to solve for 22 positions, plus special teams plus depth.

[xubrew]

The new HBL is interesting. For those that don't know, the idea is that several HBCU's will start fielding basketball teams where the players are paid between $50k - $100k, and where the teams play in the summer. Obviously, under the current rules, anyone who plays on these teams will be ineligible to play in the NCAA. Some schools are considering fielding two teams, or just moving their teams into the HBL.

They have investors. They're ready to go. They want at least twelve schools. The question is will this work? Would elite players prefer to play in the HBL where they can be paid, and get a scholarship on top of that that's guaranteed for four years, and play in a season that goes from June to Labor Day so they don't have to miss classes?? If it works, will a lot of other schools start to follow??

It could be that it's not the P% that initially starts the exodus and/or leads to things changing. If this works, then the P5 may be motivated to start paying players so they're not losing the better players to this new league.

[XUGRAD80]

When it comes to paying ANYONE at a publicly owned university, or any university that relies on any FEDERAL funds.....you have to make sure that the Title IX regulations are adhered to. Can you just imagine the uproar that would come about if suddenly the MENS basketball players started getting paid, and the WOMEN players did NOT?

UC almost raced a lawsuit last year when the men’s team and women’s teams had to move out for a season and the men’s team played at NKU and the women’s team played at a local HS. And that was just a temporary situation caused by the construction at the Shoemaker Center. I think that the minute that there is pay for play instituted for the men’s players of ANY sport, and the same thing is not going to be given to the women’s athletic department, you are going to see injunctions and lawsuits out the wazoo. Not to mention protests and demonstrations. No University board or president wants any part of those things happening.

So IMO they are going to have to find some way to satisfy the women and their organizations before they can ever institute pay for play for any men’s sports.

[xubrew]

When it comes to paying ANYONE at a publicly owned university, or any university that relies on any FEDERAL funds.....you have to make sure that the Title IX regulations are adhered to. Can you just imagine the uproar that would come about if suddenly the MENS basketball players started getting paid, and the WOMEN players did NOT?

UC almost raced a lawsuit last year when the men’s team and women’s teams had to move out for a season and the men’s team played at NKU and the women’s team played at a local HS. And that was just a temporary situation caused by the construction at the Shoemaker Center. I think that the minute that there is pay for play instituted for the men’s players of ANY sport, and the same thing is not going to be given to the women’s athletic department, you are going to see injunctions and lawsuits out the wazoo. Not to mention protests and demonstrations. No University board or president wants any part of those things happening.

So IMO they are going to have to find some way to satisfy the women and their organizations before they can ever institute pay for play for any men’s sports.

Scroll down....

https://hbleague.com/schools/

When it comes to the P5 paying players, I think they are completely aware of it and just as they have done with the cost of living they will pay all scholarship athletes equally if/when they move in that direction.

[stammina0721]

In my opinion I think the NCAA will find a way to compensate players or at least implement some common sense rules like athletes can have jobs and cream cheese on their bagels way before these schools split