A reason to be worried or haters hating?

[mid major]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2018/02/22/report-xaviers-sumner-christon-were-clients-agency-under-investigation/362856002/

Found this on the MM board. Don’t know what to make of it. The Priders seem to think it may be worrisome.

[muskiefan82]

I say Meh.

[GetUp5]

We knew this 5 months ago.

Semaj's 3rd agency since turning pro and Ed was a 3 star recruit. Nothing to see here.

It is kind of funny the Enquirer is reporting what they read in other stories as news even though that news is 5 months old.

[markchal]

Not remotely worried. Nothing major will come out of this.

[mistabeecee41]

Not remotely worried. Nothing major will come out of this.

totally something to be worried about. the second chris mack saw we were pitted against UMass and Akron for Ed's services, he flew to Detroit and dropped a bag of money with a dollar sign on it on Ed's family's doorstep.

[end sarcasm]

[xudash]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2018/02/22/report-xaviers-sumner-christon-were-clients-agency-under-investigation/362856002/

Found this on the MM board. Don’t know what to make of it. The Priders seem to think it may be worrisome.

You mean they HOPE that it is worrisome.

If you were a fan of the VD Flyers, you would have to hope that the program that you hate with all your passion, which has so incredibly distanced itself from your mid-major ineptitude - didn't they lose to Duquesne this year and aren't they like below .500 in a crappy A10! - might now be involved in something that will knock it back a peg, leaving you only 5 million pegs behind it.

Xavier doesn't operate like that. Nothing to be worrisome about. Poor VD.

[BMoreX]

We knew this 5 months ago.

Semaj's 3rd agency since turning pro and Ed was a 3 star recruit. Nothing to see here.

It is kind of funny the Enquirer is reporting what they read in other stories as news even though that news is 5 months old.

Seriously...this isn't news.

[PeteXU]

People are asking the wrong questions here. The question isn't whether Chris Mack is dropping bags of cash to recruits. That's almost certainly a no, and the results the Musketeers had on the recruiting trail this past summer certainly back that up. The bigger question is really two parts. 1. Did a player or a member of their family take money from an agent before they exhausted their eligibility and if the first question is true then it's 2. How much did the staff know.

I do not know enough to say whether or not Semaj, Edmund, or someone else took money while they were still at X, and I certainly have no idea how involved the staff would be if said hypothetical took place. (I would doubt it as their really isn't much to gain for the staff setting something like that up, and a lot of risk) That being said, if you are a college program and have had even a fringe NBA prospect and don't entertain the possibility that an agent tried to bribe a player or a family member, you are incredibly naive. There is the opportunity, incentive, and justification for a player or his family to take that money if it's offered to them. When those conditions are present, it's very easy for someone to do the wrong thing.

The haters are making Semaj and Ed guilty by association. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it's true.

[scoscox]

I don't get how the schools would be liable in this scenario. The wrongdoing seems to be on the part of this agency and individual players unless the schools specifically facilitated it and that seems unlikely just because it wouldn't really benefit them to do that.

[xu82]

My take?

Book Richardson could face up to 60 years? Really? I know that’s “up to”, but what’s more realistic (most likely rolling over for a deal). I mean, people DIE and you can get just a few years. The FBI should have spent more time on the school shooter.

[Juice]

My take?

Book Richardson could face up to 60 years? Really? I know that’s “up to”, but what’s more realistic (most likely rolling over for a deal). I mean, people DIE and you can get just a few years. The FBI should have spent more time on the school shooter.

Federal sentencing is way different than the state level but yeah facing 60 years for this is stupid.

[GIMMFD]

Yeah we're totally throwing bags of money at recruits who aren't lottery picks. That makes a shit ton of sense for Nike and Xavier to do. If we're gonna cheat, I'd hope we cheated good.

[Xavier]

While I agree the only reason for concern comes from association with Richardson, you’re fooling yourself if you think only lottery picks are getting paid.

[bobbiemcgee]

"I'm not going to stomp on anyone's grave by any means but this has been going on for a long time. We all know it but when you lose a recruiting battle it just sounds like sour grapes, so you simply move on."

C Mack

[Billy]

I believe more unfortunate details related to at least one former Xavier player will drop in the coming hours. Not a program wrecker...but not the kind of news that reasonable fans/alumni should dismiss as a nothingburger. That is what I'm hearing directly from someone on the inside of this entire circus. Stay tuned to the national media guys who are already plugged into this story. Their reporting is sound.

The timing of this for us (selfishly)...just the worst. F**king depressing, frankly.

[chico]

So this is why Mack isn't getting paid - apparently all the cash is going to recruits
.

[AviatorX]

I believe more unfortunate details related to at least one former Xavier player will drop in the coming hours. Not a program wrecker...but not the kind of news that reasonable fans/alumni should dismiss as a nothingburger. That is what I'm hearing directly from someone on the inside of this entire circus. Stay tuned to the national media guys who are already plugged into this story. Their reporting is sound.

The timing of this for us (selfishly)...just the worst. F**king depressing, frankly.

I'll play along. With all the smoke out West I'd guess Mark Lyons. I mean to be frank, there hasn't really been anyone good enough (from a professional/agent/shoe contract standpoint) at X to lead to an obvious guess.

[Billy]

I'll play along. With all the smoke out West I'd guess Mark Lyons. I mean to be frank, there hasn't really been anyone good enough (from a professional/agent/shoe contract standpoint) at X to lead to an obvious guess.

My personal belief is that plenty of 3-star guys get paid. Most of the 2,000 point scorers in major conferences are going to be those types of guys. That's not me dropping additional breadcrumbs about this specific situation, BTW. I would've hypothesized the same a year ago.

[waggy]

Not cool to guess names on the board. As far as the national media guys sound reporting... Well, so far it's pretty much just been innuendo and sensationalism..

[X-ceptional]

innuendo and sensationalism..

"The press must be discreet."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-6x02COHc4

[AviatorX]

I believe more unfortunate details related to at least one former Xavier player will drop in the coming hours. Not a program wrecker...but not the kind of news that reasonable fans/alumni should dismiss as a nothingburger. That is what I'm hearing directly from someone on the inside of this entire circus. Stay tuned to the national media guys who are already plugged into this story. Their reporting is sound.

The timing of this for us (selfishly)...just the worst. F**king depressing, frankly.

Well...can't question whether or not you're plugged in. Looks like Sumner is the player allegedly involved.

https://twitter.com/RickBroering/status/966996631492157440

For what it's worth (I would imagine a lot), here's more from later in the article Rick links to in that tweet.

"Yahoo Sports reached out to a dozen programs tied to the documents late Thursday. Only Xavier coach Chris Mack elected to release a statement. He said: “I have no relationship with Andy Miller or any of his associates. He plays no role in the recruitment of potential student athletes on Xavier’s behalf. Beyond that, our staff has never created a path for him to foster a relationship with any of our student-athletes while enrolled at Xavier. Any suggestion that I or anyone on my staff utilized Andy Miller to the provide even the slightest of financial benefits to a Xavier student-athlete is grossly misinformed. We are prepared to cooperate with any and all investigations at any level.”

Obviously there's going to be a TON of situations where agent are paying/giving gifts/etc to players prematurely. My reference earlier to no one being good enough at X was in relation to X itself paying for their services, which is obviously a MUCH bigger deal in my opinion. Honestly, it's hard for me to get worked up about guys taking a few thousand bucks from an agent here or there as long as X wasn't in on it.

[Xavier]

Damn. We will see if anything comes from this but regardless it will be a black eye.

[AviatorX]

Damn. We will see if anything comes from this but regardless it will be a black eye.

Eh. I mean I imagine literally every program who has produced pro's is going to be "party" to an issue like this.

[kellernr]

someone go punch Sumners dad in the dick.

[Xville]

Eh. I mean I imagine literally every program who has produced pro's is going to be "party" to an issue like this.

Would you be singing this same song if it was uc or another rival and not x?

[AviatorX]

Would you be singing this same song if it was uc or another rival and not x?

100%. Obviously I'm not saying this is great news. But I can't say I'm surprised at all by this trend in general. If it comes out Mack knew/encouraged this sort of thing then that's a totally different ball game.

I'm not going to get too worked up until we have some allegations of schools paying guys to come play at the school. But I also am not one to really care about "vacating" wins, banners coming down, etc., so could just be me.

[XAVI3R23]

This has nothing to do with getting Sumner to Xavier. This was an agent who saw a kid's NBA potential and took advantage of his dad to hopefully make bank in the future. Now if Xavier was playing Sumner while him or his dad were getting paid then they are probably going to have to vacate those games. If Mack and the staff were completely unaware it is still a violation.

[Xville]

100%. Obviously I'm not saying this is great news. But I can't say I'm surprised at all by this trend in general. If it comes out Mack knew/encouraged this sort of thing then that's a totally different ball game.

I'm not going to get too worked up until we have some allegations of schools paying guys to come play at the school. But I also am not one to really care about "vacating" wins, banners coming down, etc., so could just be me.

Louisville fans said the same thing...now this week they are all ready to jump off a bridge. That's obviously a little different because it's a title. Just saying it's hard to really know how you feel about something until it happens to you. My personal opinion.

[AviatorX]

Louisville fans said the same thing...now this week they are all ready to jump off a bridge. That's obviously a little different because it's a title. Just saying it's hard to really know how you feel about something until it happens to you. My personal opinion.

I mean...they still won the championship. That said, I understand some people really buy in to the vacating wins concept. I just find it kinda funny myself.

[throwbackmuskie]

If after he was hurt and wasn't playing, what can the penalty really be?

[AviatorX]

If after he was hurt and wasn't playing, what can the penalty really be?

Payments were allegedly in Spring of 2016. So in theory, all wins Ed played in after that could be vacated.

[bleedXblue]

So they paid some expenses of his dad and Edmond as they were trying to woo him to be their agent? Is that what this is?

[markchal]

If after he was hurt and wasn't playing, what can the penalty really be?

We'd have to vacate any wins after he took the $, so that likely means we won't be able to claim that Elite 8 last year anymore (at min).

[Xavier]

So they paid some expenses of his dad and Edmond as they were trying to woo him to be their agent? Is that what this is?

I thought I saw it was at least $7,500. The timing of this stinks, though.

[throwbackmuskie]

Haven't read the full report, but I guess bye bye Elite Eight Banner. In the grand scheme of things, not to bad.

[Milhouse]

Haven't read the full report, but I guess bye bye Elite Eight Banner. In the grand scheme of things, not to bad.

Not at all- he didn't play in the elite 8 due to injury or any of that run. So they'd stand.

also unfortunate timing for the Sumner's I saw Ed's older brother passed this week.

[AviatorX]

We'd have to vacate any wins after he took the $, so that likely means we won't be able to claim that Elite 8 last year anymore (at min).

Probably not worth getting into the weeds on this, but Sumner didn't play in any of the tournament wins, so why would they need to be vacated?

[markchal]

Doesn't matter if he didn't play he was still on roster and in program.

[Xavier]

Haven't read the full report, but I guess bye bye Elite Eight Banner. In the grand scheme of things, not to bad.

Agreed. Unfortunate with Ed not even being a part of it. But not a huge deal, I guess. It will be more frustrating having rivals continue to associate X with paying players.

[throwbackmuskie]

Looking at those sheets, it is weird, names like Kyle Lowery and Michael Beasley, with college kids. Very weird.

[AviatorX]

Doesn't matter if he didn't play he was still on roster and in program.

I’m honestly not sure, but then what is the point of Kansas holding out a guy like Billy Preston from game action? I think only games ineligible guys play in are vacated.

[paulxu]

I still don't understand something I asked in the other thread.

If someone comes along and pays a player/family with the idea of them locking up down the road...and the school knows absolutely nothing about it...how do you punish the school?

If a coach or someone is involved, of course you punish the school. Or if something happens that involves the school (i.e., UNC classes) OK, punish the school. But what if no one at all (see Mack's statement) is involved. Just confuses the hell out of me.

[BMoreX]

My thoughts are this: If you look strictly at the data here, the findings from the ASM agency do not implicate any school on the surface at all. Players have agents (or what are called advisors for NCAA purposes) in every major sport, and those agencies might have zero relationship with the coaches/program/college. All what has been revealed in this article is the agency paying the individual player or family.



Now, the question is did the school or coach foster the relationship? Is there actual evidence of an agent paying a player to go to a school? I don't see that here (yet) but if so, there's your clear violation. If not, then I don't really see how this affects the schools at all, aside from some media/public/rivalry backlash.

[paulxu]

Now, the question is did the school or coach foster the relationship? Is there actual evidence of an agent paying a player to go to a school? I don't see that here (yet) but if so, there's your clear violation. If not, then I don't really see how this affects the schools at all, aside from some media/public/rivalry backlash.

It's probably there in the case of the 4 assistants that they arrested.

[BMoreX]

I still don't understand something I asked in the other thread.

If someone comes along and pays a player/family with the idea of them locking up down the road...and the school knows absolutely nothing about it...how do you punish the school?

If a coach or someone is involved, of course you punish the school. Or if something happens that involves the school (i.e., UNC classes) OK, punish the school. But what if no one at all (see Mack's statement) is involved. Just confuses the hell out of me.

You can't.

[Lloyd Braun]

You can't.

Vacating wins is punishment... sort of.

[muskiefan82]

Sumner getting hurt and then leaving doesn't sting as much now.... Oh well, I have to believe Mack's statement. I find it interesting he is the only one who actually made a statement.

[kellernr]

What gets me is that most of these are for very small sums of cash. If your going to take money from an agent and screw over your school you might as well take a lot more than 1-7k.

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[bleedXblue]

Sumner's legacy forever tarnished b/c of this. What a dumbass he an his Dad are.

[kellernr]

Sumner's legacy forever tarnished b/c of this. What a dumbass he an his Dad are.What legacy? He honestly didn't do much while he was here. Early exit in his only March madness and didn't play the last 2 months of the elite 8 run.

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[muskiefan82]

Sumner's legacy forever tarnished b/c of this. What a dumbass he an his Dad are.

I will agree it was wrong and stupid, but I also won't damn someone when I am not sure of their situation and what might have prompted such a decision. I am quite sure that many of us have been in situations where we might have accepted $7000 under worse or even better circumstances when things looked bleak. I may be wrong and they may not have needed that money, but you rarely know anyone's actual story. Does it make it okay? No. Can I judge them and call them dumbasses? Maybe, but without all of the facts, I think I'll say it appears that they made a poor decision and that it may have consequences for them and those associated with them and I hope that whatever they needed that money for was of sufficient importance that any damage caused as a result was worth it. Who knows? To them, it might be.

[webxu]

that means we didn't lose to Wisconsin!!!

[Lloyd Braun]

Sumner getting hurt and then leaving doesn't sting as much now.... Oh well, I have to believe Mack's statement. I find it interesting he is the only one who actually made a statement.

The statement was clearly pre-prepared, so they were ready for this. I’m not sure if that makes me feel better or worse?

[xumuskies08]

Yikes, not a great look. I am glad Mack is getting out in front of things and I am absolutely inclined to believe him. Here's how I think it may play out...

At best: The allegations just aren't true and the whole thing goes away.
Most likely: It is true, but no one at X knew, and nothing really comes of it other than a figurative black eye.
At worst: It is true, Mack knew, and games in which Ed played are vacated and the successes of last couple years are forever tarnished.

No matter what, I can't see this impacting Xavier moving forward. It's all in the past and the continued upward trajectory of the program shouldn't change.

[paulxu]

On the dark humor side of all of this crap, it seems as if many of the athletes who took the money, didn't sign with the agency anyway, leaving a "bad debt."

You would think the "loan" would almost be some sort of hammer the agent could use to keep the guy; "stay with us, or we'll tell the press" sort of deal.

No honor among thieves.

[paulxu]

At worst: It is true, Mack knew, and games in which Ed played are vacated and the successes of last couple years are forever tarnished.

No matter what, I can't see this impacting Xavier moving forward. It's all in the past and the continued upward trajectory of the program shouldn't change.
If Mack knew...he's gone. And it's a big impact.

[Xville]

If Mack knew...he's gone. And it's a big impact.

Im assuming Mack didn't know...but even if that's the case, it is still a violation whether you all like it or not. The excuse of "I didn't know" from a coach, doesn't work anymore.

Now to the extent of punishment, who knows, but if what is written is true, than Xavier is going to have to forfeit wins, give back tournament money at the very least.

[XUGRAD80]

We probably don’t need to worry about the “Mack is going to Louisville” rumors any more.

[xu82]

It softens the blow a little to see names like Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky popping up on the screen on the Golic and Wingo show. I’m glad Mack made the statement, and I dodn’t see any way to 100% prevent this. Now, if you are knowingly enabling it, that’s a very different story.

[XUGRAD80]

If no one......and I’m including Summer in this.....knew that the father got money from the agent while Summer was still on the roster as an eligible player, I don’t see what the NCAA will do. IF his dad got the money AFTER Edmond had already declared for the draft, I don’t see how that is an NCAA infraction.

It is possible that some of the things in the report may be ILLEGAL, but not be NCAA infractions.

Still, it doesn’t make me feel any better about how this looks to others around the country.

[markchal]

Yeah, Louisville definitely can't hire Mack now!

If this is really all our involvement is in this (the Book era obviously has me concerned) then I can live with it. Too many teams doing worse for this to be damaging to the program. We'll lose wins, so I feel bad for guys like Bernard/etc. who will see their E8 banner come down, and it will hurt the win totals for Tre/JP etc., but if Mack didn't know (and it doesn't look like he did), and this wasn't a recruiting thing, it won't be that big of a deal.

Still, really disappointing.

[markchal]

If no one......and I’m including Summer in this.....knew that the father got money from the agent while Summer was still on the roster as an eligible player, I don’t see what the NCAA will do. IF his dad got the money AFTER Edmond had already declared for the draft, I don’t see how that is an NCAA infraction.

It is possible that some of the things in the report may be ILLEGAL, but not be NCAA infractions.

Still, it doesn’t make me feel any better about how this looks to others around the country.

Players families can't take $ from an agent while they are still in school. It's definitely an NCAA infraction. Really, players should be paid anyway and the NCAA is plenty corrupt and awful in itself.

[mistabeecee41]

If no one......and I’m including Summer in this.....knew that the father got money from the agent while Summer was still on the roster as an eligible player, I don’t see what the NCAA will do. IF his dad got the money AFTER Edmond had already declared for the draft, I don’t see how that is an NCAA infraction.

It is possible that some of the things in the report may be ILLEGAL, but not be NCAA infractions.

Still, it doesn’t make me feel any better about how this looks to others around the country.

He was still a Xavier player. documents say February/March of 2016.

[GoMuskies]

You guys are missing the most important point here: LaSalle now went to the Elite Eight in 2013. They're just an Ohio State player being implicated away from being in the title game that year!

[GuyFawkes38]

Meh. If your a top bball program it’s hard not to get involved in these types of issues. This one is relatively small.

That being said, we should never get too proud about the “Xavier Way” and how we are different and on a higher moral level than other schools. These issues are pervasive in college basketball. And the issues themselves are banal and stupid.

[markchal]

That being said, we should never get too proud about the “Xavier Way” and how we are different and on a higher moral level than other schools. These issues are pervasive in college basketball. And the issues themselves are banal and stupid.

I know this is a little off-topic, but I agree with this even before this report. Adults that whine on Twitter about other teams/schools "classlessness" is absurd. Same as any person ever who tweets negative shit at a college kid. Just, like, what are you doing with your life?

[muskiefan82]

Any time, in any job or situation, when YOU can be held accountable for the actions of others, if you do it long enough, someone will do something that you will have to deal with whether you knew or had anything to do with it at all. It's just the way it works. It's the same as being a parent. If your kid does something stupid, it's on you in many cases.

[kellernr]

Now do they have bank statements showing a $7000 deposit for Ed or his dad?

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[Billy]

It softens the blow a little to see names like Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky popping up on the screen on the Golic and Wingo show. I’m glad Mack made the statement, and I dodn’t see any way to 100% prevent this. Now, is you are knowingly enabling it, that’s a very different story.

My understanding is that this is going to get significantly worse for some fairly storied programs. Much is yet to be exposed.

I believe the news this morning might be as bad as it gets for us. And yes, well handled by Mack.

Only thing I'm going to throw out there to our fan base, and this isn't an allegation as much as a suggestion of caution. Guys DO get direct payments by alumni and agents as part of the recruitment process. People close to the sport know that this happens all of the time. If Edmond broke the rules like this, if he took a $7,000 loan...he also might have broken the rules like that. He'd deny it, and I'd tell him I don't trust his ass any longer. The primary way recruits get to the $$$ guys is through these types of relationships. I would just urge folks to be mindful that we're not surrounded by saints, and this IS solidly a Top 20 program now. Even if Chris knows nothing...even if he is suspicious, and has super tight plausible deniability in his corner...we're not playing basketball at The Gardens any more, and we shoiuldn't assume anything about the types of kids Xavier now recruits.

[markchal]

Now do they have bank statements showing a $7000 deposit for Ed or his dad?

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We are a LONG way from this getting sorted out/settled. Just kinda wish this had broken a month later, because now it's a distraction for us (more so for the players named who are currently playing).

[XUGRAD80]

He was still a Xavier player. documents say February/March of 2016.

But had he already declared for the draft at that point? Didn’t he get injured in January? I really don’t remember the exact dates when all this went down.

I think that IF his dad took money, and IF he wasn’t aware of it, and IF nobody at X was aware of it....then X would have a pretty sound reason to win an appeal of any NCAA punishments placed upon it.

Bottom line though....X is going to be a loser in the court of public opinion and there is little or nothing that can be done about that right now. I do believe that Mack’s statment is an initial attempt to control the damage to the best of his ability. And I believe him too.

But he didn’t say that they were completely unaware of any payments by the agent to either Sumner or his dad.....THAT has me concerned.

[GoMuskies]

He got injured in 2017. He played games for Xavier after the date of the payments.

[markchal]

But had he already declared for the draft at that point? Didn’t he get injured in January? I really don’t remember the exact dates when all this went down.


No, he played for us last year too.

[markchal]

This is a fine take: https://deadspin.com/who-gives-a-shit-1823260537

[AviatorX]

No, he played for us last year too.

I’m legitimately curious because I don’t know and you seem to be confident. Is it true that programs have to vacate all wins where ineligible players were on the roster vs games where they actually played?

[markchal]

I’m legitimately curious because I don’t know and you seem to be confident. Is it true that programs have to vacate all wins where ineligible players were on the roster vs games where they actually played?

I don't know either! I do believe that's the case though. Could be wrong. Also, this is still the FBI investigation, and the NCAA will have to do their own investigation and this just seems like it will drag on for awhile and be sorta messy before any real "punishment" is handed down.

Whatever, we should leave the banner up.

[Xavier]

I’m legitimately curious because I don’t know and you seem to be confident. Is it true that programs have to vacate all wins where ineligible players were on the roster vs games where they actually played?

He did play that year, though. So the case is made he helped get wins that lead to NCAA tournament birth.

[GuyFawkes38]

Bright spot here. Will Louisville avoid Mack when they look for coaching candidates?

But yeah, this is all so stupid.

[kellernr]

We are a LONG way from this getting sorted out/settled. Just kinda wish this had broken a month later, because now it's a distraction for us (more so for the players named who are currently playing).None of our current players were named. If it distracts other teams it will only help X beat them.

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[markchal]

Who else in the league was implicated in this? Saw Whitehead at Seton, heard something about Nova coaches?

[Juice]

Bright spot here. Will Louisville avoid Mack when they look for coaching candidates?

But yeah, this is all so stupid.

Someone made this point on the Scout board that U.K. took Cal with two vacated seasons so Louisville will probably not care.

[kellernr]

I don't know either! I do believe that's the case though. Could be wrong. Also, this is still the FBI investigation, and the NCAA will have to do their own investigation and this just seems like it will drag on for awhile and be sorta messy before any real "punishment" is handed down.

Whatever, we should leave the banner up.Leave it up and add an asterisk

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[GuyFawkes38]

Someone made this point on the Scout board that U.K. took Cal with two vacated seasons so Louisville will probably not care.

Ha! That is true.

[XUGRAD80]

He got injured in 2017. He played games for Xavier after the date of the payments.


Thank you....got it now. Had my years mixed up (which shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that knows me), I was thinking that all this happened AFTER his injury, not during his 1st year of playing. I see know that I was in error. I don’t see any way that Sumner would not have been aware that his father received some money, and thus how he could not be guilty of at least one infraction.

Sad.

[muskiefan82]

I'm with Banners on the Parkway

https://www.bannersontheparkway.com/2018/2/23/17043402/the-asm-scandal-isnt-going-to-take-down-xavier-basketball-semaj-christon-edmond-sumner-chris-mack

[paulxu]

I'm trying hard to understand what exactly a school is suppose to do.
I don't want to be naive about boosters and what they might do, but what if you have a situations where:
1 - No one on a staff knows anything
2 - Player knows nothing
3 - Agent lend money to family to get a favorable look after player leaves college.
4 - Player goes off to college and leaves
5 - Loan is discovered

You punish the school and vacate wins when player was on the roster?
Makes no sense. You'd have to have a family compliance officer that lived with every recruit's family and audited their records.

[xu82]

Who else in the league was implicated in this? Saw Whitehead at Seton, heard something about Nova coaches?

I think I saw Patton at Creighton.

[Grizzx12]

Who else in the league was implicated in this? Saw Whitehead at Seton, heard something about Nova coaches?

Creighton (Patton) is on the list for having meals/expenses and also Nova (Kyle Lowry) is on the expense list for $5,927.51 that I can see. Didnt see anything on the coaches for Nova. Also like you said Seton Hall (Whitehead) for $16,636.00.

What's even more sad/disappointing about this is it seems like these dudes targeted guys who I'd assume were recruited the right way (Ed, Brogdon, Patton, even Kyle O'Quinn at Norfolk. St) who were not the big 4/5* guys but really developed into pro prospects after enrolling. Won't affect those guys in the least but a lot remains to be seen for the programs they left.

[muethibp]

I doubt X suffers any serious ramifications from this.

It's a reminder to me that men's college basketball and football are ethically awful - let's not even get started on the "student" part in student-athlete - and it makes me feel dirty and guilty to be a fan.

[XUGRAD80]

There were over 4,000 phone calls monitored over a years time......we really have only begun to touch on how far this all goes and who all are involved. The report is 300+ pages long. “Experts” are saying that this is only the tip of the iceberg. What about all the other agents, too?

[GoMuskies]

I'm trying hard to understand what exactly a school is suppose to do.
I don't want to be naive about boosters and what they might do, but what if you have a situations where:
1 - No one on a staff knows anything
2 - Player knows nothing
3 - Agent lend money to family to get a favorable look after player leaves college.
4 - Player goes off to college and leaves
5 - Loan is discovered

You punish the school and vacate wins when player was on the roster?
Makes no sense. You'd have to have a family compliance officer that lived with every recruit's family and audited their records.

It's the same issue I run into with FCPA compliance. People we hire or contract with could be paying bribes to foreign governments without our knowledge, and we can be on the hook for it. The way to mitigate that is to make a compelling case that you did everything reasonably within your power to prevent it. In our case, we make abundantly clear to our counterparties our expectations on compliance. We interview them. We train them. We put agreements in place that are VERY clear on expectations. We train the people who work with them to make sure they are setting the right tone with the counterparties and ensure that they are getting a consistent message that this is actually important to us and that we are not just paying lip service to it. And if we get a report or hear correspondence that questions a counterparties' compliance, we don't ignore it. We address it with the counterparty. Sometimes we have to cut ties.

Schools need to have similar types of compliance policies. They have to make sure the players know that the school is committed to compliance. They need to train the coaches. They need to train the players. They need to make sure the coaches are setting the right tone with players and their families. They need to show that they are taking warning signs that a player may be taking payments seriously and not ignore those signs. So there's a big gap between players taking these payments and the schools not knowing about it and the schools being absolutely powerless to combat that activity. The schools can't prevent everything, but they sure better make the effort to control the things that they can control and not turn a blind eye to red flags.

[xumuskies08]

"The expense line “Edmond Sumner/Josh Jackson meeting” took place the same day X beat nova in Cincinnati. It looks like the meeting took place in Detroit. This seems like it only went through Ed’s dad." - @RickyB_708

https://twitter.com/RickyB_708/status/967055765122027522

Not sure if that means jack squat, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[GetUp5]

Yeah this is really nothing. There's nothing implicating Xavier or that we gained any advantage recruiting.

We'll be fine.

[Grizzx12]

Read a little more are there is a photo of a document that lists Ed's father Ernest as to who a $2,500 payment was to go to. Also, there is reference to Tom Izzo, "Villanova coaches", and some of the big name guys as well that are currently still playing. It will be interesting to see what happens to Colin Sexton, Wendell Carter, Kevin Knox, and Miles Bridges for sure.

[xu82]

Sounds like March Madness might have something in common with NCAA football playoffs - they might be down to 4 eligible teams.

[paulxu]

If Ed's dad took $, and Ed and the school didn't know, then it would seem a stretch to vacate wins.

I liked Edmond Sumner. I wish he had played more for us. He seemed like such a great guy.
I have to believe that the school and the BE spend a lot of time instructing these kids as to the pitfalls of agents, money, etc.

If Ed knew about it, absent some drastic family crisis, then I'm not only disappointed, but very worried that one kid can hold the fate of an entire school/program in his hands. Crazy. They shouldn't ever have that power.

[Xavier]

If wins are vacated, do they count as losses? Mainly wondering how it affects Tre point total?

[Billy]

Sounds like March Madness might have something in common with NCAA football playoffs - they might be down to 4 eligible teams.

The joke I heard last week from someone I know on the journalism side of this was that Bowling Green would be a #2 seed if everything came out today.

Miller's spreadsheets are just a speck within the complete evidence within the investigation: https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-college-hoops-corruption-case-poised-take-hall-fame-coaches-top-programs-lottery-picks-224417174.html

[paulxu]

The more I think about this, the more pi$$ed off I get.
If we have to vacate wins, and our program gets tarnished, because Ed's dad took $....while UNC has 1500 athletes take bogus classes and gets NADA....than screw this entire stupid thing.
They will always be my Muskies, but this is a well and truly screwed up world we are playing in.

[bigdiggins]

If Ed's dad took $, and Ed and the school didn't know, then it would seem a stretch to vacate wins.

I liked Edmond Sumner. I wish he had played more for us. He seemed like such a great guy.
I have to believe that the school and the BE spend a lot of time instructing these kids as to the pitfalls of agents, money, etc.

If Ed knew about it, absent some drastic family crisis, then I'm not only disappointed, but very worried that one kid can hold the fate of an entire school/program in his hands. Crazy. They shouldn't ever have that power.

I hope he tears another acl. Bum.

[XUGRAD80]

Based on what has come out so far......I believe that there are two possibilities.

A) X is hardly punished because nobody at X is shown to have done anything wrong, other than a players dad

Or

B). The NCAA overreacts and punishes everyone that is even mentioned, because they want to try and save face and show that they are the power here and not the schools/ coaches/players

Q....has the NCAA ever shown that they can be reasonable and exercise common sense?

Dayton should be worried.

[Billy]

The more I think about this, the more pi$$ed off I get.
If we have to vacate wins, and our program gets tarnished, because Ed's dad took $....while UNC has 1500 athletes take bogus classes and gets NADA....than screw this entire stupid thing.
They will always be my Muskies, but this is a well and truly screwed up world we are playing in.

I hear you, but the NCAA is not in the business of academic accreditation. The NCAA is a hot mess, I don't want them expanding their tentacles any further. UNC will pay a dear price in the academic world for that situation.

[atljar]

Totally bummed that the Xavier name is even mentioned in any of this. I think the Sumner thing will blow over and in the end its going to be a non factor after we see all the other information come out.

HOWEVER... I still have a bad feeling about Book Richardson, Holloway and Lyons. No insider info, just thinking we are going to get all wrapped up into the pending federal case (along with a TON of other programs)

[muskiefan82]

Based on what has come out so far......I believe that there are two possibilities.

A) X is hardly punished because nobody at X is shown to have done anything wrong, other than a players dad

Or

B). The NCAA overreacts and punishes everyone that is even mentioned, because they want to try and save face and show that they are the power here and not the schools/ coaches/players

Q....has the NCAA ever shown that they can be reasonable and exercise common sense?

Dayton should be worried.

If B happens, the NCAA will no longer have jurisdiction over the most of the major conferences as that would likely be the impetus to leave the NCAA and set up something else.

[muskiefan82]

Totally bummed that the Xavier name is even mentioned in any of this. I think the Sumner thing will blow over and in the end its going to be a non factor after we see all the other information come out.

HOWEVER... I still have a bad feeling about Book Richardson, Holloway and Lyons. No insider info, just thinking we are going to get all wrapped up into the pending federal case (along with a TON of other programs)

Perhaps, but that would likely follow Miller and tarnish him more(hopefully)

[AviatorX]

I hope he tears another acl. Bum.

Lol. This is insane.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I'm assuming there has to be more proof that Sumner's dad accepted the money than just a spreadsheet. He is going to have to admit he accepted it or his bank records indicate it? A spreadsheet, by itself, doesn't prove much.

[RoseyMuskie]

Regarding the 2018 tournament, this report could be favorable for X.

With Knox, Bridges, and Sexton named, and Trier’s PED suspension, the field could be watered down quite a bit.

[Emp]

I hope he tears another acl. Bum.

Really? Speaking of haters......

[GetUp5]

This is really frustrating news.

We know perception is everything and a lot of droolers who read headlines and don't understand things will start saying things like "That school is dirty!" and "That school cheated!"... But what on earth does Ed's dad taking $7k from an agent have anything to do with X cheating or being dirty?

In the next few weeks as this is a topic I think it's VERY important to draw the line of distinction between a school paying a player to attend the school and an outside agent paying the player to sign with his agency when his college career is over.

[xu koop scoop]

If the NCAA comes down hard on everybody, the schools can and probably would tell the NCAA to take a hike and form their own governing body. I would be happy to see the Nobody Can Accept Anything (NCAA) go down the tubes. They have played favorites for too long & wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA takes bribes from schools themselves to keep from punishing colleges.

[GetUp5]

If the NCAA comes down hard on everybody, the schools can and probably would tell the NCAA to take a hike and form their own governing body. I would be happy to see the Nobody Can Accept Anything (NCAA) go down the tubes. They have played favorites for too long & wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA takes bribes from schools themselves to keep from punishing colleges.

Good point.

I really love college basketball. Would hate to see this whole thing blow up and the tournament changes, etc. Seems like such small BS stuff that if the NCAA had anyone with some common sense in charge would have been corrected a long time ago.

[bjf123]

Here’s my take on this. If an agent gave, or loaned, money to a player or player’s family, and the school and coaches know nothing about it, the school should receive no punishment. Maybe you should have better educated the players about what is and is not acceptable, but if they’re from a poor background and someone is waiving thousands of dollars in their face, they’re probably going to grab the cash. There’s nothing any program can do about that.

However, if you have assistant coaches working with agents or sports apparel reps to funnel money to a player to get him to commit to a particular school, throw the book at that program. If it’s egregious enough with a given program to the point that it’s happened over and over, I’m fine with the death penalty for that sport.


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[Billy]

We know perception is everything and a lot of droolers who read headlines and don't understand things will start saying things like "That school is dirty!" and "That school cheated!"... But what on earth does Ed's dad taking $7k from an agent have anything to do with X cheating or being dirty?


Nothing. Maybe.

But what I'm hearing, is that some of the universities currently taking that "We knew nothing" position are going to be outed. We haven't gotten to the wiretapping yet. Book Richardson and Chuck Person both played dumb for years.

While we have a long way to go, the sense I have is that Xavier doesn't have as much to be worried about as a few "elite" programs in this regard.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Here’s my take on this. If an agent gave, or loaned, money to a player or player’s family, and the school and coaches know nothing about it, the school should receive no punishment. Maybe you should have better educated the players about what is and is not acceptable, but if they’re from a poor background and someone is waiving thousands of dollars in their face, they’re probably going to grab the cash. There’s nothing any program can do about that.

However, if you have assistant coaches working with agents or sports apparel reps to funnel money to a player to get him to commit to a particular school, throw the book at that program. If it’s egregious enough with a given program to the point that it’s happened over and over, I’m fine with the death penalty for that sport.


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Problem there is that unscrupulous teams and coaches will tell their players to go hog wild. Just don’t advertise it, coaches can put their head in the sand and play dumb.


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[bjf123]

Problem there is that unscrupulous teams and coaches will tell their players to go hog wild. Just don’t advertise it, coaches can put their head in the sand and play dumb.


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Throw the book at them, too. I’m talking about teams that truly play by the rules and don’t put their head in the sand. I’d like to think X is such a program.


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[paulxu]

I hear you, but the NCAA is not in the business of academic accreditation.

They may not be, but they are in the business of punishing schools if they keep players academically eligible with shenanigans.
For example, Minnesota got hammered for an adviser doing papers for 18 athletes to keep eligible. Lost scholarships, etc.
For another example, North Carolina kept 1500 athletes in business with bogus classes. Nothing happened.

[XU '11]

They may not be, but they are in the business of punishing schools if they keep players academically eligible with shenanigans.
For example, Minnesota got hammered for an adviser doing papers for 18 athletes to keep eligible. Lost scholarships, etc.
For another example, North Carolina kept 1500 athletes in business with bogus classes. Nothing happened.

From what I understand of the situation, the NCAA basically said that the athletes got the same treatment as the rest of the general student body. The classes were a joke but it wasn’t unique to athletes. Non-athletes could just as easily take those fake classes. I think it’s totally fair for the NCAA to stay out of that.

Then again, I also thought the NCAA should’ve stayed out of the Joe Paterno situation.

[GoMuskies]

From what I understand of the situation, the NCAA basically said that the athletes got the same treatment as the rest of the general student body. The classes were a joke but it wasn’t unique to athletes. Non-athletes could just as easily take those fake classes. I think it’s totally fair for the NCAA to stay out of that.


Dilly, dilly!

[Billy]

They may not be, but they are in the business of punishing schools if they keep players academically eligible with shenanigans.
For example, Minnesota got hammered for an adviser doing papers for 18 athletes to keep eligible. Lost scholarships, etc.
For another example, North Carolina kept 1500 athletes in business with bogus classes. Nothing happened.

Because the NCAA can take action where there is clearly athlete misconduct. Academic fraud can be reasonably classified as misconduct.

Does requiring a UNC player to craft one incoherent paragraph about Rosa Parks constitute a rigorous offering? No.

But what about a paragraph about Parks, and one about Malcolm X...if they're written well?

What about a 10 page report?

What about a film class?

This is the kind of line that I don't want the NCAA adjudicating. They're an administrative nightmare. Schools should enjoy making their own decisions concerning academic rigor. Professors, state government, and alumni are better positioned to police that. If institutions want to cheapen their degrees, then let them.

[Billy]

Then again, I also thought the NCAA should’ve stayed out of the Joe Paterno situation.

Why, if I may ask?

[SlimKibbles]

If the NCAA comes down hard on everybody, the schools can and probably would tell the NCAA to take a hike and form their own governing body. I would be happy to see the Nobody Can Accept Anything (NCAA) go down the tubes. They have played favorites for too long & wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA takes bribes from schools themselves to keep from punishing colleges.

I'm still pissed about the NCAA taking Thomas More's National Title from a couple of years ago away because Sydney Moss stayed with a former coach while she rehabbed from a knee injury. They deemed that an impermissible benefit but North Carolina can have a systemic failure like churning athletes through a bogus major where they didn't have to do any work just to keep them eligible and get away with it. It's BS.

That said, I'm interested in seeing what additional news will follow what came out today. Hate seeing X's name involved on any level.

[XU '11]

Why, if I may ask?

Because it was a legal matter and people that were in the wrong were going to prison. How are NCAA sanctions any sort of bigger deterrent to those actions than prison time?

[Billy]

Because it was a legal matter and people that were in the wrong were going to prison. How are NCAA sanctions any sort of bigger deterrent to those actions than prison time?

The Feds can't suspend, fire, or offer competitive penalties...actions that might warrant something other than prison time, or punishment for behaviors that don't break a specific criminal statute. Had Penn State gone to the Rose Bowl in 2012, how would that have looked?

One of the criticisms I'm reading about today's events (Barry Petchesky at Deadspin for example), is that the NCAA is being lazy in allowing the feds to handle their dirty work through the leaking discovery from the criminal cases of Richardson, Person, et al.

[Sonoran Desert Muskie]

Why, if I may ask?

What Sandusky did, and what PSU turned a blind eye to, was disgusting and PSU deservedly has and will pay 10s of millions of dollars in civil settlements. But what NCAA rule did PSU violate and how did PSU, for example, gain a recruiting advantage or a competitive advantage when Sandusky raped kids while on campus? I still don’t know what NCAA rule PSU violated.

[smileyy]

gain a recruiting advantage or a competitive advantage

By continuing to have their beloved head coach who knew all about it, yes, they gained a huge recruiting advantage.

[Sonoran Desert Muskie]

By continuing to have their beloved head coach who knew all about it, yes, they gained a huge recruiting advantage.

That’s a stretch. What if BYU’s coach converted to a fundamental Mormon sect that still practiced and encouraged polygamy and the coach had 5 wives? Should the NCAA penalize BYU because it didn’t fire the coach? Again, what NCAA rule did PSU violate?

[X-ceptional]

Here’s my take on this. If an agent gave, or loaned, money to a player or player’s family, and the school and coaches know nothing about it, the school should receive no punishment. Maybe you should have better educated the players about what is and is not acceptable, but if they’re from a poor background and someone is waiving thousands of dollars in their face, they’re probably going to grab the cash. There’s nothing any program can do about that.

However, if you have assistant coaches working with agents or sports apparel reps to funnel money to a player to get him to commit to a particular school, throw the book at that program. If it’s egregious enough with a given program to the point that it’s happened over and over, I’m fine with the death penalty for that sport.


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This is also a big question I have with respect to how they could enforce something like this. Consider situations like Robert Swift (p.s., read this Sports Illustrated article from 2016 (https://www.si.com/nba/2016/09/21/robert-swift-nba-drug-addiction-thunder-sonics)... it's worth the long read).


Now, [his mom] Rhonda forbids Rob from playing pickup hoops with his buddies. He’s an investment now. Rob fumes. He is 18. He can do what he wants.


Three weeks later Swift becomes a millionaire. Three years, four-point-four mil. We got this far as a family, [his dad] Bruce reminds him. And indeed, Rob buys his parents a house. A year earlier Bruce had declared bankruptcy for the second time in five years. Now, neither he nor his wife will work for the foreseeable future.


For years, his parents were, for all intents and purpose, his employees, paid a living allowance. “If you add up all the money he gave to people who said they needed it, it’s astonishing,” Daub says. “Wrong or right, that’s just who he is.”


What about the opinion that his parents saw him as an NBA player first and a son second? He produces a pained grin. “That’s not the first time I’ve heard that.”

Then after he's played over seas, gained and lost a ton of weight, gotten addicted to heroin, moved in with his dealer, guns, arrests, squatting in a house with no electricity or water, he's trying to make himself better. After years of not speaking with his mom, he has tried slowly reopening communications with her, and then this:


I’m also with Rob when he reads a text from Rhonda the day after he’d learned about an NBA residual check. His mom says she’s happy for him. She also says they could really use $10,000.

Haven't talked in years, but sure could use 10k. This is an EXTREME case, and I am in no way it applies to what went down here. What's more, I suppose I recognize that this is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy, but I think it's a serious concern, because I just really find it over-burdensome that a school needs to control all of its scholarship athletes' family members as well. What if the parents don't care about the kid beyond what he can do as a basketball player?
Shoot, what if the kid has no contact with the parents at all?

Again, that's not the case here. But it still seems crazy even when you consider a tweet I saw that the details apparently indicate that the supposed payment occurred in Detroit when X was playing Nova in Cincy. I know that doesn't mean that Ed couldn't have known about it, but at least there's no way Ed could have even been involved in the actual transaction. I don't know, all this just seems a bit much. Maybe I'm just rationalizing.

[X-ceptional]

Also just a quick thread-jack to say for real though, read that article. Another bit I love about an interaction between Swift and Tim Duncan:


And he gets to play against his idols. The first time he guards Tim Duncan, Swift pushes up on him on the block, trying to impress him.

“Nah, nah, don’t do that,” Duncan says.

Swift is surprised. Duncan never talks to opponents. And yet...

“The ball’s going to swing to the other side, get position,” Duncan continues.

The ball swings. Swift follows orders, shuffling his feet across the lane, staying behind Duncan.

“No, further up,” Duncan says. Swift takes a half-step.

“No, a little higher, don’t let me duck in on you.”

Swift complies.

“All right, now come back,” Duncan says, moving across the lane. “The ball’s about to be swung back, but it’s not coming to me this time so don’t worry about it. But now you know how to play it.”

[Blue Blooded-05]

What Sandusky did, and what PSU turned a blind eye to, was disgusting and PSU deservedly has and will pay 10s of millions of dollars in civil settlements. But what NCAA rule did PSU violate and how did PSU, for example, gain a recruiting advantage or a competitive advantage when Sandusky raped kids while on campus? I still don’t know what NCAA rule PSU violated.

PSU didn’t turn a blind eye to gain an advantage. They did it to not interrupt what was already in place. If they went public they would have faced a PR disaster would have tarnished Jo Pa’s b/s “success with honor” legacy that was so important to their alumni and fans. Once Joe Pa was exposed as a fraud, the school risked falling into a downward spiral that would have resulted in lost recruits, season ticket holders and donations.

Ultimately, they tried to gain by not losing. This strategy obviously backfired, but had it worked it would have had a direct positive impact on the success of the athletic department.

[HenryMuto]

FBI wiretaps show Sean Miller discussed $100K payment to lock recruit

[Jesuit4Life]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284


FBI wiretaps intercepted telephone conversations between Arizona coach Sean Miller and Christian Dawkins, a key figure in the FBI's investigation into college basketball corruption, in which Miller discussed paying $100,000 to ensure star freshman Deandre Ayton signed with the Wildcats, sources familiar with the government's evidence told ESPN.

According to people with knowledge of the FBI investigation, Miller and Dawkins, a runner working for ASM Sports agent Andy Miller, had multiple conversations about Ayton. When Dawkins asked Sean Miller if he should work with assistant coach Emanuel "Book" Richardson to finalize their agreement, Miller told Dawkins he should deal directly with him when it came to money, the sources said.

The telephone calls between Miller and Dawkins were among 3,000 hours of conversations intercepted from Dawkins' phone alone by the FBI.

[drudy23]

Holy sh*t...this is career ending stuff.

Hard to deny a wiretap.

I really, really, really hope this dude was clean at X.

[XUGRAD80]

This is probsbly only the beginning

[RoseyMuskie]

Looks like Sean is going to the Kia factory.

[waggy]

Holy sh*t...this is career ending stuff.



And if you look at the stuff Richardson is charged with, it can cost you your freedom. And all of your wealth.

[xavierj]

He is done.

[Grizzx12]

Duuuuuuuuude, that sounds really really bad for Miller. Wayyyyy beyond meals or the Pitino method

[muethibp]

I don’t see how he survives even 24 hours.

[drudy23]

Resignation coming tomorrow...how can you do anything else? You can't play the normal deny game with this one.

[xu82]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation

[bjf123]

To say I’m surprised would be putting it mildly. I would not have expected this of Sean. Maybe when he got to Arizona, he found out the only way to compete for the 5 star top recruits was to play the money game. I certainly hope nothing like this was going on while he and Book were at X.


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[xu82]

Duuuuuuuuude, that sounds really really bad for Miller. Wayyyyy beyond meals or the Pitino method

Didn’t Pitino and crew do this same stuff as well as the strippers and hookers?

[GuyFawkes38]

Whoa! I’m honestly shocked (I know I shouldn’t be).

Now this is truly a big deal! This is all way too close to us. I’m nervous.

[drudy23]

Reading articles from when this broke a few months ago, many reported these investigations started 2 years ago. Hoping all this started well after he was gone. He's been gone a long time.

[xu82]

Mark Lyons scares me, as do a few others.....

[Grizzx12]

Didn’t Pitino and crew do this same stuff as well as the strippers and hookers?

I was thinking of the “I didn’t know anything method” Pitino took but you make an excellent point. Same thing but with hookers

[waggy]

Mark Lyons scares me, as do a few others.....

Mark Lyons put alot into X. If something comes out the implicates him in this then sure free game, but right now Lyons hasn't been implicated, and your repeated posting his name is disgusting.

[xumuskies08]

I’m definitely not un-nervous as of right now. Was it like a light switch flipped on when he went to Zona? Was he involved with anything at X? Who knows.

Crazy. Just crazy.


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[xu82]

Mark Lyons put alot into X. If something comes out the implicates him in this then sure free game, but right now Lyons hasn't been implicated, and your repeated posting his name is disgusting.

Well, I disagree and don’t care if you don’t like it. The way he openly disrespected Mack and followed Miller to Arizona, that’s enough to raise an eyebrow and mention. I hope you can get over the obvious question about the situation.

[bjf123]

March Madness is going to have a whole new meaning this year. I could be wrong, but it seems like the few big money payments already mentioned have gone to the one and done type players. Got to wonder if Calipari and UK have a similar shoe ready to drop, since they’re the king of one and done.


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[AviatorX]

Well, I disagree and don’t care if you don’t like it. The way he openly disrespected Mack and followed Miller to Arizona, that’s enough to raise an eyebrow and mention. I hope you can get over the obvious question about the situation.

Exactly. I mean if we're going to speculate about potential X involvement here, Lyons is one of the few guys that checks all the boxes.

[xu82]

Exactly. I mean if we're going to speculate about potential X involvement here, Lyons is one of the few guys that checks all the boxes.

This actually speaks well of Mack, if you can say that in the middle of a quagmire.

[drudy23]

The story from the beginning was that Book paid a player to come to AZ. They had to know this was coming right? They've had to have had conversations with AZ's administration about some of this. How do they let Ayton play after knowing the FBI was on to them?

[Jesuit4Life]

Maybe it's because this is what I want to be true, but this reads like the connections between Sean Miller and ASM/Dawkins didn't start until in Arizona. I'm not seeing anything that would indicate a previous connection with Miller and Book Richardson while they were at X.
https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html

Sumner is mentioned at the end here:

The next day, July 28, a Dawkins email summarizing the Nike Skills Academy in California reviewed the performance of four college players he labeled “our guys.” Bridges was among them, as were Clemson’s Jaron Blossomgame, Xavier’s Edmond Sumner and Iowa State’s Monte Morris. Blossomgame, Sumner and Morris received impermissible benefits from Dawkins, according to his expense reports.

As it would turn out, ASM Sports did sign Blossomgame and Sumner when they officially turned pro. But later on July 28, Dawkins was already thinking ahead. He planned to call or text Steve Reed, who works in the financial industry. As always, he was searching for the next deal. Dawkins wrote: “Have to start getting on advances for our clients.”

[drudy23]

This going to make a great 30 for 30.

[GoMuskies]

Sean Miller retires with zero Final Fours. Sad.

[xu82]

Sean Miller retires with zero Final Fours. Sad.

I think he’s made enough that he won’t have to drive a Buick. Sad all around, but I’m just praying we come out as clean as possible.

[LadyMuskie]

Well, I disagree and donÂ’t care if you donÂ’t like it. The way he openly disrespected Mack and followed Miller to Arizona, thatÂ’s enough to raise an eyebrow and mention. I hope you can get over the obvious question about the situation.

I don't chime in much anymore, but I'm going to here because this irritated me back when Lyons left and it still irritates me now.

This "Lyons openly disrespected Mack" crap is rumor now and it was rumor then. Nothing more. Maybe it did happen, but you have no proof. It was all conjecture. What I know for fact is that even after he left, he continued to speak highly of Xavier, his former teammates, and his former coaches. He was a lot more mature and much more of a man than a whole lot of so-called adults on this board who gladly accepted him as one of our own so long as he was wearing the blue and white. Maybe he did take money to go to Arizona or to come here. I have no idea. What I do know is that he hasn't been named, and while he was here he fought for X so why impugn his name?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If your house is clean, then go right ahead and point fingers, but I doubt it is.

And going forward, whether X is further implicated or not, I think it's a good time for all of us to take a step down from our pedestals. We, myself included, have relished every single time our rivals have faced hard times. I pray that Mack is as moral and honest as he purports to be, and I pray and hope that all of the coaches that have coached for him have been as well. In my heart, I have to believe that he wouldn't jeopardize his alma mater, but in reality . . . only time will tell. Today, I've been humbled as a lifelong X fan.

[GuyFawkes38]

Well this has been an interesting, awful day. I’m going to go to bed before anything else happens.

[drudy23]

Who has been judging? No one has posted a holier than thou attitude about this.

[GoMuskies]

Who has been judging? No one has posted a holier than thou attitude about this.

I'm judging Sean Miller. If it turns out Chris Mack did the same, I'll be judging Chris Mack.

[Xavier]

Man. If Miller did any of this at Xavier. I don’t want to imagine the penalties. Just horrible news and hate to be connected both with Sumner and to Miller.

While it is concerning, I think once Sean started going one and done recruiting he jumped into the $ game. At least that’s the hope.

[xu82]

Lady, out of respect I won’t quote the whole thing, but it does raise questions. If you think he didn’t step outside of what he was asked to do at times, I wonder if you were watching.

It appeared he was basically asked to leave X, and where did he wind up? Amazing! There was smoke there. You can’t deny that. I don’t want to dig up film, but Lyons took things on his own, and Mack sat him, even when he needed him on the court. Did you miss that? One game in particular was egregious behavior. I distinctly remember an awkward gut feeling at times. It was NOT a healthy relationship. Then Lyons went to Miller. Why? I can’t say, but it was unconventional and had a bad look to it. That is hard to argue against.

I’m NOT anti-Lyons. The guy balled out for us. But the whole situation is curious. It could be natural preference for a beloved coach, but that whole thing was weird.

[Xavier]

Why did he go play for the coach that recruited him and he spent most time with? I’d be more concerned Lyons was paid to go to X (which is the biggest concern, obviously) than him leaving to AZ for $

[xu82]

Why did he go play for the coach that recruited him and he spent most time with? I’d be more concerned Lyons was paid to go to X (which is the biggest concern, obviously) than him leaving to AZ for $

I don’t disagree. The guy may have deep alliances. Not a bad thing, usually....

[GIMMFD]

This going to make a great 30 for 30.

This is a dumpster fire right now, and obviously let's hope X isn't involved in any of this crap Miller pulled. I'd hate to think our growth was done other than the right way, I really hope we come out clean out of this. I believe in Mack, and I believe he is a man of outstanding moral fiber. I would be very shocked if he were involved knowingly in any of this.

Anybody else find it strange that SB ran an article on Bag Men in college football a few years back, and that has never been blown wide open? Are they just that much better at hiding their payments, or do they protect the college football industry because of the insane money revenue? Genuine question.

[markchal]

I believe in Mack, and I believe he is a man of outstanding moral fiber. I would be very shocked if he were involved knowingly in any of this.


I would've said this about Sean six months ago.

[xu82]

Does this make anyone wonder about all the top recruits who had Xavier in their top three, yet we struck out on almost all of them???

[xu82]

I would've said this about Sean six months ago.

Oh, I would NOT have. Their recruiting classes were just TOO good, year after year. We had a down year, maybe we were just low on funds? No, I think we just couldn't keep up.

[GetUp5]

With Lady on this one. Let's relax with all the crazy theories until we have some more facts.

Is it so crazy to think Lyons left Xavier to go to AZ because the coach who recruited him to Xavier did the same thing?

[GIMMFD]

Does this make anyone wonder about all the top recruits who had Xavier in their top three, yet we struck out on almost all of them???

If anything it's a positive sign that we didn't have a monster recruiting class again, and I think it's a positive sign that Mack came out immediately and made a statement. However, this is just the tip of the ice berg, we're about to witness some major developments over the course of the next few months, and I really really hope we're clean. I think the signs point to us being clean, but man, this has been a whirlwind of a day. I know I don't envy any Arizona fan right now between the football allegations and this today. That whole athletic department is a dumpster fire.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Official statement from Sean Miller on 10/3/17 after Book was arrested...

“I was devastated to learn last week of the allegations made against Emanuel Richardson. I have expressed to both Dr. Robbins and our Athletic Director Dave Heeke that I fully support the university’s efforts to fully investigate these allegations. As the head basketball coach at the University of Arizona, I recognize my responsibility is not only to establish a culture of success on the basketball court and in the classroom, but as important, to promote and reinforce a culture of compliance. To the best of my ability, I have worked to demonstrate this over the past 8 years and will continue to do so as we move forward.”

Maybe this is why Arizona got off to such an unexpected bad start this year. It must be tough to perform while carrying the immense weight of a lie of this magnitude.

[xu82]

With Lady on this one. Let's relax with all the crazy theories until we have some more facts.

Is it so crazy to think Lyons left Xavier to go to AZ because the coach who recruited him to Xavier did the same thing?

That’s fine. I was just uncomfortable with the Lyons thing. I’m not saying he’s the devil or even did anything wrong. I just didn’t like some aspects of how things played out. He DID seem to remain a big X guy, so what I questioned is more than I’m up to posting now. I just had questions. But I wish him nothing but the best. It’s just a feeling....

[LadyMuskie]

Lady, out of respect I won’t quote the whole thing, but it does raise questions. If you think he didn’t step outside of what he was asked to do at times, I wonder if you were watching.

It appeared he was basically asked to leave X, and where did he wind up? Amazing! There was smoke there. You can’t deny that. I don’t want to dig up film, but Lyons took things on his own, and Mack sat him, even when he needed him on the court. Did you miss that? One game in particular was egregious behavior. I distinctly remember an awkward gut feeling at times. It was NOT a healthy relationship. Then Lyons went to Miller. Why? I can’t say, but it was unconventional and had a bad look to it. That is hard to argue against.

I’m NOT anti-Lyons. The guy balled out for us. But the whole situation is curious. It could be natural preference for a beloved coach, but that whole thing was weird.

I honestly don't even know where to start, but I think you're better than this, 82. Maybe Mack and Lyons did hate each other. So? Miller was coach when Lyons was recruited. Some people just don't get along. It doesn't make either one guilty of anything or planning anything. I had a boss once who hated me and I her. No real reason. She was a good person. We just didn't vibe. It does happen. And recruits and players follow coaches a lot. It's why everyone gets so antsy when coaches get fired and jobs start opening up.

And I really don't know what you mean about Lyons stepping outside of what he was asked to do? Did he take the game in his hands sometimes and make stupid mistakes as a result? Yes. What passionate player hasn't? Lloyd Price on more than one occasion missed a wide open dunk when he insisted, for whatever reason, on doing a spin move or some other completely unnecessary move. Was he undermining the program suspiciously as well, or was he a college kid showing off? Chalmers literally took over the team before and during the Run, and because it turned into the Run we revere him for it, but it could have gone much different if we had continued to lose and it became common knowledge that he was holding meetings about how the team needed to play.

Beyond that, and I know you know this, your gut doesn't amount to proof. A lot of people were looking for a scapegoat for our "problems" at the time, and Lyons became it. Post-brawl Xavier was a little overwhelming as you may recall. There were full on witch hunt at times (let's not even get to what chaos the Wells situation incurred.) I do remember it ALL very clearly, because there were only a handful of us on here willing to stand up and say that what most were saying about Lyons was conjecture, feelings, and gossip. Every year, for a part of the season, some player was beat up on this board - Lyons, Jackson, Frease, Davis. It's mind-boggling. Now we're going to go further and accuse a guy of something of which we have no proof he did, when we have an actual Xavier player who either took money or whose dad took money while he was wearing an X uniform? Good God. We're back to hunting for those witches in order to deflect from the potential real problems at hand.

Was Lyons perfect? No. He was a hot head and he definitely squandered his potential at times. I'm sure he was a pain in the ass to coach sometimes too, but then I'm guessing coaching 18-23 year old boys is a pain in the ass the majority of the time. There were a whole lot of problems on that team at that time, and at the University as a whole. Did you miss that?

If you want to accuse and point fingers without proof, go right ahead. It says more about you than it does about Lyons until evidence shows otherwise (and I said that about the posters back in the day accusing him of everything short of the JFK assassination.) Maybe he did take money to go to Arizona, but maybe he took money to come to Xavier as well. One worries me far more than the other, I'll tell you that, and if he did then we can run his name through the mud along with Sumner and anyone else who pops up in these proceedings. I'll maintain that if he was such a cancer on the team, then his former teammates wouldn't have remained as close to him as they did. But then, I'm sure gut feelings and cut-aways to the bench one saw while watching the game on television gives far more insight than anything else.

[xu82]

So....how much has Sean earned so far? How financially responsible has he been? I hope it’s enough to live comfortably.

[Billy]

I'm judging Sean Miller. If it turns out Chris Mack did the same, I'll be judging Chris Mack.

The information I have been receiving leads me to believe that nothing close to this magnitude is coming Xavier's direction.

Just sick about this news about Sean.

[Nigel Tufnel]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2017/09/27/xaviers-chris-mack-fbis-college-hoops-investigation-have-massive-effect/708933001/

This article is so interesting in retrospect. Miller is called Mack's mentor (I'd argue Mack's mentor was Skip), but Mack all but admits to recruits being paid. Wonder if he is referencing Simmons in his quote...or Gary Harris? This is crazy.

Apologies to BobbieMcgee. He cited Mack's quote hours ago. Just thought the entire article was interesting.

[xu82]

I honestly don't even know where to start, but I think you're better than this, 82. Maybe Mack and Lyons did hate each other. So? Miller was coach when Lyons was recruited. Some people just don't get along. It doesn't make either one guilty of anything or planning anything. I had a boss once who hated me and I her. No real reason. She was a good person. We just didn't vibe. It does happen. And recruits and players follow coaches a lot. It's why everyone gets so antsy when coaches get fired and jobs start opening up.

And I really don't know what you mean about Lyons stepping outside of what he was asked to do? Did he take the game in his hands sometimes and make stupid mistakes as a result? Yes. What passionate player hasn't? Lloyd Price on more than one occasion missed a wide open dunk when he insisted, for whatever reason, on doing a spin move or some other completely unnecessary move. Was he undermining the program suspiciously as well, or was he a college kid showing off? Chalmers literally took over the team before and during the Run, and because it turned into the Run we revere him for it, but it could have gone much different if we had continued to lose and it became common knowledge that he was holding meetings about how the team needed to play.

Beyond that, and I know you know this, your gut doesn't amount to proof. A lot of people were looking for a scapegoat for our "problems" at the time, and Lyons became it. Post-brawl Xavier was a little overwhelming as you may recall. There were full on witch hunt at times (let's not even get to what chaos the Wells situation incurred.) I do remember it ALL very clearly, because there were only a handful of us on here willing to stand up and say that what most were saying about Lyons was conjecture, feelings, and gossip. Every year, for a part of the season, some player was beat up on this board - Lyons, Jackson, Frease, Davis. It's mind-boggling. Now we're going to go further and accuse a guy of something of which we have no proof he did, when we have an actual Xavier player who either took money or whose dad took money while he was wearing an X uniform? Good God. We're back to hunting for those witches in order to deflect from the potential real problems at hand.

Was Lyons perfect? No. He was a hot head and he definitely squandered his potential at times. I'm sure he was a pain in the ass to coach sometimes too, but then I'm guessing coaching 18-23 year old boys is a pain in the ass the majority of the time. There were a whole lot of problems on that team at that time, and at the University as a whole. Did you miss that?

If you want to accuse and point fingers without proof, go right ahead. It says more about you than it does about Lyons until evidence shows otherwise (and I said that about the posters back in the day accusing him of everything short of the JFK assassination.) Maybe he did take money to go to Arizona, but maybe he took money to come to Xavier as well. One worries me far more than the other, I'll tell you that, and if he did then we can run his name through the mud along with Sumner and anyone else who pops up in these proceedings. I'll maintain that if he was such a cancer on the team, then his former teammates wouldn't have remained as close to him as they did. But then, I'm sure gut feelings and cut-aways to the bench one saw while watching the game on television gives far more insight than anything else.

Well, isn’t someone a bit sensitive. I don’t care what his Book/Miller relationship was when he went to Arizona. He behaved horribly for Mack at times (still not a great concern). I worry MOST about how he was enticed to X. That is my biggest concern. Given the way things turned out, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable concern. YES, I’m speculating about what could go wrong here. It’s NOT unreasonable given current circumstances. I get where you could object to speculating, but that was a weird deal. Just sayin’. Put your high horse back in the barn.

Oh, did I forget the Book connection? Does this not concern you?

EDIT: I’m expressing concerns, NOT accusing. Maybe that says more about you in mischaracterizing that point.

[xu82]

With Lady on this one. Let's relax with all the crazy theories until we have some more facts.

Is it so crazy to think Lyons left Xavier to go to AZ because the coach who recruited him to Xavier did the same thing?

I love Lyons and what he did for the program, but his petulance and lack of maturity was almost unprecedented. I fully appreciated what he could do.

[OTRMUSKIE]

https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html

[AviatorX]

Mark Lyons was a very good college player who gave his all for Xavier. Mark Lyons was also a gigantic pain in the ass at times. Both can be true and neither really that controversial.

[xu82]

Nobody wins here, it’s just a matter of who loses the most.

[OTRMUSKIE]

I guess Sean will be driving a Buick again very soon.

[GuyFawkes38]

Let’s all pray for Sean Miller. He needs it.

[Snipe]

That new coaching carousel thread is gonna be running off the hook.

[IM4X]

Does this make anyone wonder about all the top recruits who had Xavier in their top three, yet we struck out on almost all of them???

Yes-Yes- Was thinking the same thing. Why was X able to recruit so well the year before but then somehow just couldn’t reel in even one of those top prospects who were so high on X right before they committed elsewhere. Got to think that if the FBI followed the trail to where those prospects landed, they might just uncover some more corruption.

[Billy]

Yes-Yes- Was thinking the same thing. Why was X able to recruit so well the year before but then somehow just couldn’t reel in even one of those top prospects who were so high on X right before they committed elsewhere. Got to think that if the FBI followed the trail to where those prospects landed, they might just uncover some more corruption.

I don't think there's anything to that.

Of all the stuff I've read today, this might be the most unbelievable: https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/967276324862619650

[IM4X]

I guess Sean will be driving a Buick again very soon.

Ha... If he is lucky

[XUBison]

Well, isn’t someone a bit sensitive. I don’t care what his Book/Miller relationship was when he went to Arizona. He behaved horribly for Mack at times (still not a great concern). I worry MOST about how he was enticed to X. That is my biggest concern. Given the way things turned out, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable concern. YES, I’m speculating about what could go wrong here. It’s NOT unreasonable given current circumstances. I get where you could object to speculating, but that was a weird deal. Just sayin’. Put your high horse back in the barn.

Oh, did I forget the Book connection? Does this not concern you?

EDIT: I’m expressing concerns, NOT accusing. Maybe that says more about you in mischaracterizing that point.


I don’t Mind your speculation, as it is fair we, as X fans/supporters, have serious concerns about the state of the program. Agree that the horses should be left in the barn while we all try to wrap our minds around this. That said, it seems we should be less concerned with Lyons, and more concerned with the fact corrupt Sean Miller was our coach for 5 years.

[IM4X]

I don't think there's anything to that.

Of all the stuff I've read today, this might be the most unbelievable: https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/967276324862619650

The world had gone mad.

[xukeith]

X is in a PR ugly nightmare BUT the school and coaches MAY have known nothing about Sumner and Christion getting paid.
It still looks ugly and the NCAA could swipe the all powerful "lack of institutional control" at every program where a player got cash.

Looks bad.
UC and UD fans love this.

[XUGRAD80]

Has there been an accusation that Christion got paid? I must have missed that. All I have seen is that he recently signed with the agency involved, but I have t seen anything about him getting paid while a recruit or player for X.

[xavierj]

Has there been an accusation that Christion got paid? I must have missed that. All I have seen is that he recently signed with the agency involved, but I have t seen anything about him getting paid while a recruit or player for X.

Semaj was not listed. XUkeith gets a little confused. Semaj signed with this guy I think well after he left Xavier. Was not his first agent.

[paulxu]

With the state of affairs this morning, I never dreamed I'd get a brief bit of levity, with a Rule #1 violation.

Fascinating.

[Xavier]

The information I have been receiving leads me to believe that nothing close to this magnitude is coming Xavier's direction.

Just sick about this news about Sean.

From what you’re hearing, is the worst of it over for Xavier?

[D West]

X is in a PR ugly nightmare BUT the school and coaches MAY have known nothing about Sumner and Christion getting paid.
It still looks ugly and the NCAA could swipe the all powerful "lack of institutional control" at every program where a player got cash.

Looks bad.
UC and UD fans love this.


No way X is penalized with probation for Sumner's greed. Unlike Dayton and UC, who both have been placed on probation.........

This is not like a university trustee (UD) paid a recruit's father (Brooks Hall). Mack strongly defends the program and I trust Chris.

[LadyMuskie]

Well, isn’t someone a bit sensitive. I don’t care what his Book/Miller relationship was when he went to Arizona. He behaved horribly for Mack at times (still not a great concern). I worry MOST about how he was enticed to X. That is my biggest concern. Given the way things turned out, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable concern. YES, I’m speculating about what could go wrong here. It’s NOT unreasonable given current circumstances. I get where you could object to speculating, but that was a weird deal. Just sayin’. Put your high horse back in the barn.

Oh, did I forget the Book connection? Does this not concern you?

EDIT: I’m expressing concerns, NOT accusing. Maybe that says more about you in mischaracterizing that point.

If you go back and reread all your posts in this thread, you have accused Lyons of various things, including leaving Xavier under suspicious circumstances to play for a former coach which is, in your opinion, unconventional. If I'm mischaracterizing your point, it's because it's ever-changing. If I'm sensitive to anything, it's to the raging stink of b.s. I'll call it out when I see it because he hasn't been accused, he hasn't been named, and I think it's wrong, un-Xavier-like and immature to accuse a former player by name because you had feelings about something suspicious and thought he was petulant.

[drudy23]

"un-Xavier-like"....lol

And you're saying other people are holier than thou?

[Xville]

"un-Xavier-like"....lol

And you're saying other people are holier than thou?

Haha maybe lady thinks 82 needs a reflection session...

[stammina0721]

So I gotta say I've heard this story but have not followed it closely. I just watch games. So can someone kind of summarize what is going on in full? I got some questions id like answers too because I tried reading through the whole thread but between Penn St., Lyons, Lady, and other things it was hard to keep everything straight.

1. Why are people going to jail over this? What laws were broken? I know it's against NCAA rules to pay players but I didn't know it was against the law as well.

2. Do you think the NCAA will have levels of punishment? Something like Sean Miller on the phone talking about 100k payments should be treated differently than lighter payments with no school involvement.

3. Why is the FBI even investigating this? Kind of like question one, what major laws are being violated that takes a multi year FBI investigation?

[xu82]

If you go back and reread all your posts in this thread, you have accused Lyons of various things, including leaving Xavier under suspicious circumstances to play for a former coach which is, in your opinion, unconventional. If I'm mischaracterizing your point, it's because it's ever-changing. If I'm sensitive to anything, it's to the raging stink of b.s. I'll call it out when I see it because he hasn't been accused, he hasn't been named, and I think it's wrong, un-Xavier-like and immature to accuse a former player by name because you had feelings about something suspicious and thought he was petulant.

To be clear, if I thought this was akin to being a pedophile, I’m not wondering out loud. Due to the crazy nature of the NCAA, their stupid rules and random enforcement, I think this is more like jay walking, for the most part. I’m OK with speculating about who might be a jay walker, I have one kid who’d be more likely than the other. No big deal.

The NCAA needs to be torn down and we need new rules for college sports.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't think there's anything to that.

Of all the stuff I've read today, this might be the most unbelievable: https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/967276324862619650

Yeah this is unreal, I cant believe Arizona agreed to pay him 85% of his remaining contract if he was fired for cause.

No one should be concerned for Sean Miller's financial situation.

[Blue Blooded-05]

So I gotta say I've heard this story but have not followed it closely. I just watch games. So can someone kind of summarize what is going on in full? I got some questions id like answers too because I tried reading through the whole thread but between Penn St., Lyons, Lady, and other things it was hard to keep everything straight.

1. Why are people going to jail over this? What laws were broken? I know it's against NCAA rules to pay players but I didn't know it was against the law as well.

2. Do you think the NCAA will have levels of punishment? Something like Sean Miller on the phone talking about 100k payments should be treated differently than lighter payments with no school involvement.

3. Why is the FBI even investigating this? Kind of like question one, what major laws are being violated that takes a multi year FBI investigation?

The only reason the FBI is investigating this is because large sums of money changed hands under the table...ie, without taxes being paid. Furthermore, if college athletes are being paid, the schools lose their tax exempt status, which would enable the IRS to claim even more taxes.

From the FBI’s standpoint, this never has and never will be about ethics. It’s about $$

[xavierj]

So I gotta say I've heard this story but have not followed it closely. I just watch games. So can someone kind of summarize what is going on in full? I got some questions id like answers too because I tried reading through the whole thread but between Penn St., Lyons, Lady, and other things it was hard to keep everything straight.

1. Why are people going to jail over this? What laws were broken? I know it's against NCAA rules to pay players but I didn't know it was against the law as well.

2. Do you think the NCAA will have levels of punishment? Something like Sean Miller on the phone talking about 100k payments should be treated differently than lighter payments with no school involvement.

3. Why is the FBI even investigating this? Kind of like question one, what major laws are being violated that takes a multi year FBI investigation?

The NCAA will drag this out and slap a few wrists but conclude most universities were not aware of the issues. As for the FBI not sure other than tax evasion for not reporting any income for the payments and not being aware of where the payments were coming from. Also I guess as an agency if you are doing something illegal to gain a competitive business advantage, then that could be an issue as well. Although how is that any different than politicians getting money from companies to help win elections and then give those businesses advantages as a result?

[Xville]

Yeah this is unreal, I cant believe rizona agreed to pay him 85% of his remaining contract if he was fire for cause.

No one should be concerned for Sean Miller's financial situation.

I'm going to assume arizona knew he was going to cheat so that's the way it was written...im thinking their ad isn't going to survive this when all is said and done either...

[bjf123]

Yeah this is unreal, I cant believe rizona agreed to pay him 85% of his remaining contract if he was fire for cause.

I wonder if Sean had Mike Brown’s attorney negotiating his contract?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[D-West & PO-Z]

I honestly dont have a hard time believing Sean Miller turned this way at Arizona. He was under immense pressure there. Lute Olsen is a god there and Miller was strongly criticized for not getting to a Final 4 at this point. He is competing for recruits with Cal at UK, Duke, Mich State, UCLA, Kansas, etc. It is not a stretch for me to believe he went in there a very clean guy and the pressure got to him and he decided he needed to get dirty to compete.

[bjf123]

1. Why are people going to jail over this? What laws were broken? I know it's against NCAA rules to pay players but I didn't know it was against the law as well.

Everything I’ve read references corruption. I’m not sure where that falls in Federal criminal code. The other thing people have to remember is you know the IRS can’t wait to go after all the money recipients for unreported income. I’m going to guess the agents and shoe companies didn’t issue a 1099.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xu82]

I honestly dont have a hard time believing Sean Miller turned this way at Arizona. He was under immense pressure there. Lute Olsen is a god there and Miller was strongly criticized for not getting to a Final 4 at this point. He is competing for recruits with Cal at UK, Duke, Mich State, UCLA, Kansas, etc. It is not a stretch for me to believe he went in there a very clean guy and the pressure got to him and he decided he needed to get dirty to compete.

I agree that he went into a situation that had to have an insane amount of pressure to win at a high level. I pray that’s where this started. Book, and every recruit associated with him, concerns me. Just when did this start?

[bjf123]

Here are the 6 crimes Book Richardson has been charged with. Conspiracy to commit bribery, solicitation of bribes by an agent of a federally funded organization, conspiracy to commit honest services fraud, wire fraud conspiracy, mail fraud conspiracy and travel act conspiracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xavierj]

I agree that he went into a situation that had to have an insane amount of pressure to win at a high level. I pray that’s where this started. Book, and every recruit associated with him, concerns me. Just when did this start?

It started when he started recruiting one and dones. It’s just the way it is. You want to have a chance you have to pay. The guys getting money were the best of the best. Some lower tiered recruits may get some benefits but the big money the FBI is after is for the best of the best. You won’t find $100,000 k for guys expected to be good 3 or 4 year college guys.

[waggy]

Someone on an Arizona board linked a tweet that suggested the leaks by Yahoo and ESPN are illegal because the case is sealed.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Someone on an Arizona board linked a tweet that suggested the leaks by Yahoo and ESPN are illegal because the case is sealed.

What was their point?

[stammina0721]

The only reason the FBI is investigating this is because large sums of money changed hands under the table...ie, without taxes being paid. Furthermore, if college athletes are being paid, the schools lose their tax exempt status, which would enable the IRS to claim even more taxes.

From the FBI’s standpoint, this never has and never will be about ethics. It’s about $$

Makes sense. Uncle Sam wants his money

[waggy]

What was their point?

It was last night and I don't remember if there was a point. This morn I looked at the player names in the initial leak and personally feel the list is interesting. If my count is right: 2 for X, 1 for Creighton, 1 for Mich St, and 3 Clemson. Is this a controlled leak? I have no friggin idea.

[MHettel]

Wonder what the odds makers in Vegas are thinking today. The Touramnet could be an absolute disaster this year.

[stammina0721]

This is how I view it. X will be fine. I think the only heavy penalties come from wiretaps that have actual coaches talking money like Miller. Unless evidence like that surfaces I think X, MSU, Duke, Clemson and so on will be fine

[D-West & PO-Z]

It was last night and I don't remember if there was a point. This morn I looked at the player names in the initial leak and personally feel the list is interesting. If my count is right: 2 for X, 1 for Creighton, 1 for Mich St, and 3 Clemson. Is this a controlled leak? I have no friggin idea.

Who is the second X player? Semaj? I thought it was pretty clear he was a client of this agency but it was like his 3rd agent after going pro?

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is how I view it. X will be fine. I think the only heavy penalties come from wiretaps that have actual coaches talking money like Miller. Unless evidence like that surfaces I think X, MSU, Duke, Clemson and so on will be fine

Yeah there is a HUGE difference between a coach/school offering a recruit money (whatever amount) to commit to their school and having a player in your program accept money early from an agent to sign with them when they turn pro.

[xavierj]

It was last night and I don't remember if there was a point. This morn I looked at the player names in the initial leak and personally feel the list is interesting. If my count is right: 2 for X, 1 for Creighton, 1 for Mich St, and 3 Clemson. Is this a controlled leak? I have no friggin idea.

Yeah I think Semaj had him as an agent but not his first after he left Xavier. The guy also represents former UC players but that doesn’t mean they did anything wrong. The guy represented and still represents NBA players.

[XUBison]

I honestly dont have a hard time believing Sean Miller turned this way at Arizona. He was under immense pressure there. Lute Olsen is a god there and Miller was strongly criticized for not getting to a Final 4 at this point. He is competing for recruits with Cal at UK, Duke, Mich State, UCLA, Kansas, etc. It is not a stretch for me to believe he went in there a very clean guy and the pressure got to him and he decided he needed to get dirty to compete.


Really? Wasn‘t he competing for recruits while at X? Maybe not of the same caliber, but nonetheless. Why do we assume the cheating is limited to one and doners? There are many ways to cheat, and as far as agents are concerned, most kids playing overseas have agents representing their interests.

[Xavier]

Not in love with Lyons tweets. Basically asking how you can punish a guy (Book) for giving money to kids so they can eat. While he didn’t come out and say he got money it certainly leans that way.

[stammina0721]

Not in love with Lyons tweets. Basically asking how you can punish a guy (Book) for giving money to kids so they can eat

Well in all honesty I agree with him here. I do think there is a huge difference between a few thousand here and there because college athletes are not allowed to have jobs and a six figure payment though.

[GIMMFD]

Not in love with Lyons tweets. Basically asking how you can punish a guy (Book) for giving money to kids so they can eat

Eh I'm sure Lyons isn't the only ex-athlete involved with a school wrapped up in this that has said something about the NCAA. For a lot of people it's hard to fathom an industry making an insane amount of money, while the "workers" can't even have meals paid for every now and then. I think there needs to be a structural reform, hell the NCAA President is making over a million a year. He's most likely going to step down, leaving Oliver Luck (Andrew Luck's father, former AD at WVU) in charge, wonder what route the NCAA takes in order to fix this cluster fuck of a mess.

[markchal]

Well in all honesty I agree with him here. I do think there is a huge difference between a few thousand here and there because college athletes are not allowed to have jobs and a six figure payment though.


I think he's worried because if Lyons is vocally defending Book and his actions, it may be because he was part of them. Too early to tell, but still a little concerning.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Am I the only one who thinks this story is a little too cut and dry?

The Miller story broke because unnamed sources leaked one sentence of 3,000 hours of dialog of a sealed federal investigation to a network that’s hemorrhaging money and desperate for ratings and mouse clicks.

First of all, why is Miller telling an agent over phone to go through him directly to coordinate payments to a player? Any legit cartel leader conducting illegal business would negotiate through an underling. More specifically, someone naive and expendable. Heck, the person Miller was negotiating with was a naive and expendable underling at ASM. The name of the game is plausible deniability and the moment Miller speaks about it directly, he’s cooked...

Unless...

He’s working from the inside.

**MIND BLOWN**

[GIMMFD]

Am I the only one who thinks this story is a little too cut and dry?

The Miller story broke because unnamed sources leaked one sentence of 3,000 hours of dialog of a sealed federal investigation to a network that’s hemorrhaging money and desperate for ratings and mouse clicks.

First of all, why is Miller telling an agent over phone to go through him directly to coordinate payments to a player? Any legit cartel leader conducting illegal business would negotiate through an underling. More specifically, someone naive and expendable. Heck, the person Miller was negotiating with was a naive and expendable underling at ASM. The name of the game is plausible deniability and the moment Miller speaks about it directly, he’s cooked...

Unless...

He’s working from the inside.

**MIND BLOWN**

I don't know, they were working with a 24 year old guy at a Sports Agency. I'm 24 now, and I can tell you that if I had that type of power, I'd probably feel pretty untouchable too. Nobody thinks it's going to happen to them, until it actually happens to them, especially if they have been doing it for years. It's a story that's been repeated all throughout history.

[XUBison]

Not in love with Lyons tweets. Basically asking how you can punish a guy (Book) for giving money to kids so they can eat. While he didn’t come out and say he got money it certainly leans that way.

Don’t they get meal plans? I don‘t know... college athletes look awfully healthy to me. So weird to think they never eat.

[Burkitt's07]

Just some random thoughts about this issue and FBI involvement and I am in no way condoning what Sean and others are accused of doing, but the math doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, so the FBI initially got involved because taxes weren't paid on the money exchanged, which sounds like it was a couple of 100k her and there, totally maybe a 1 or 2 million if you add up all that's been alleged. So the unpaid taxes is maybe at most $500k and I'm guessing the cost of the investigation and court costs is easily going to exceed 10's of millions of dollars. Is this a good use of tax payer $$?

Also, reportedly Book and friends are facing up to 50 to 60 years in prison if found guilty of all charges. Is this a good use of tax payer $$? Again, I'm certainly not condoning accepting and offering bribes etc., but hard to imagine any of these guys do anywhere close to that time even if found guilty of all that is alleged.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Really? Wasn‘t he competing for recruits while at X? Maybe not of the same caliber, but nonetheless. Why do we assume the cheating is limited to one and doners? There are many ways to cheat, and as far as agents are concerned, most kids playing overseas have agents representing their interests.

Yeah really. He was at a school where a large majority of his fan base considered a non Final 4 season a failure and Miller had not been to one yet even though he had at least 2 or 3 different teams that many thought were the favorites to win it all. He was feeling major pressure I am sure. The recruits he is competing for at Arizona are a completely different level than the ones we were competing for at X while he was there. Not even close. I am not just talking about one and doners either.

The pressure wasnt the same at X, nor were the expectations. No excuse for Miller, he knew what he was getting into. It does not shock me he could have gone from clean coach with all the intention to remain that was and then missed final 4 after missed final 4 pushed him to go into a direction that it appears he did.

[XUFan09]

Don’t they get meal plans? I don‘t know... college athletes look awfully healthy to me. So weird to think they never eat.They do, but even if they have a carte blanche plan, there are limitations. At Xavier, you couldn't swipe twice in a single meal time (so no eating at 4 and again at 8). Then, if the cafeteria is closed you're just SOL. I remember the Xavier cafeteria closing at 8:30 and being a semi-active teenager, I regularly found myself hungry again later that night. Meals plans came with some credit for other food options on campus, but that credit easily ran out in a semester. So, I ended up paying for food quite often, but at least I had some money. And that's when, again, I was only semi-active (e.g. throwing a frisbee around or playing a quick pickup game of basketball). I didn't burn nearly as many calories per day as a high-D1 athlete would.

I'm guessing my experience to a significant extent is still applicable to current college students, and Lyons' experience at least was similar, as we overlapped in our time at Xavier.

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[ervinsm84]

Just some random thoughts about this issue and FBI involvement and I am in no way condoning what Sean and others are accused of doing, but the math doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, so the FBI initially got involved because taxes weren't paid on the money exchanged, which sounds like it was a couple of 100k her and there, totally maybe a 1 or 2 million if you add up all that's been alleged. So the unpaid taxes is maybe at most $500k and I'm guessing the cost of the investigation and court costs is easily going to exceed 10's of millions of dollars. Is this a good use of tax payer $$?

Also, reportedly Book and friends are facing up to 50 to 60 years in prison if found guilty of all charges. Is this a good use of tax payer $$? Again, I'm certainly not condoning accepting and offering bribes etc., but hard to imagine any of these guys do anywhere close to that time even if found guilty of all that is alleged.
That isn't exactly why or how the FBI got involved.

Basically some super shady guy doing white collar crime (can't remember his name) was dead to rights on some charges. In an an attempt to lessen his punishment, he sang like a bird and also told the FBI he had some stuff for them involving shoe companies and agents etc.

The big thing that is going on is the universities are unknowingly committing fraud by having players be paid (see ville listed as the victim in the indictment) by these agents, assistants, handlers etc. A lot of these players are on Pell grants, or other financial aid that is dependent on income caps. Guess who shouldn't be getting financial aid? A guy getting 150k to go to Louisville. So now the University has defrauded the federal government.

Also taxes. Also money laundering. Also bribes/kickbacks.

Did any of these guys probably realize they were breaking federal law? I doubt it. Hell, I work in Financial Crimes and didn't realize it until I looked into the details of the case.

Here's a good breakdown of what started the investigation.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/explaining-the-fbi-probe-and-the-corruption-scandal-rocking-college-basketball/amp/

[XUBison]

Just some random thoughts about this issue and FBI involvement and I am in no way condoning what Sean and others are accused of doing, but the math doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, so the FBI initially got involved because taxes weren't paid on the money exchanged, which sounds like it was a couple of 100k her and there, totally maybe a 1 or 2 million if you add up all that's been alleged. So the unpaid taxes is maybe at most $500k and I'm guessing the cost of the investigation and court costs is easily going to exceed 10's of millions of dollars. Is this a good use of tax payer $$?

Also, reportedly Book and friends are facing up to 50 to 60 years in prison if found guilty of all charges. Is this a good use of tax payer $$? Again, I'm certainly not condoning accepting and offering bribes etc., but hard to imagine any of these guys do anywhere close to that time even if found guilty of all that is alleged.


The IRS has its own collections/enforcement agents. The FBI is only concerned with criminal activity, which unpaid taxes do not typically qualify as unto themselves. It is just flat wrong to think the FBI is concerned with recouping revenue, as it‘s simply not what they do. That’s why the IRS exists. Whether it’s a good use of tax dollars to pursue this is certainly debatable, but the only concern of the FBI is whether they believe criminal laws were broken.

[bjf123]

I wonder if there are Federal laws that would either allow or prohibit the FBI sharing details with the IRS? Regardless, the IRS will be looking into it eventually.


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[XUBison]

I wonder if there are Federal laws that would either allow or prohibit the FBI sharing details with the IRS? Regardless, the IRS will be looking into it eventually.


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Oh, no doubt.

[LA Muskie]

I knew most of the basketball players during my time from ‘92-‘96. They could get food whenever they wanted. Half the team lived in the Grill when they weren’t at practice.


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[X-Fan]

I honestly dont have a hard time believing Sean Miller turned this way at Arizona. He was under immense pressure there. Lute Olsen is a god there and Miller was strongly criticized for not getting to a Final 4 at this point. He is competing for recruits with Cal at UK, Duke, Mich State, UCLA, Kansas, etc. It is not a stretch for me to believe he went in there a very clean guy and the pressure got to him and he decided he needed to get dirty to compete.


I agree that he went into a situation that had to have an insane amount of pressure to win at a high level. I pray that’s where this started. Book, and every recruit associated with him, concerns me. Just when did this start?

I remember the big argument against Miller taking the Zona job was that he didn’t have any recruiting roots on the West Coast. So he goes and has to start somewhere, right? Maybe Book got over aggressive and Sean didn’t push back because it was going to take too long to build his network without "help". Just my two cents. I was and wasn’t surprised with how fast he started getting elite recruits. This is nuts.

[ervinsm84]

The strongest piece of evidence that he didn't buy players when he was at X is the money he likely used to pay for Ayton and whoever else, was probably from Nike. I think it's pretty unlikely he paid for Ayton out of his own pocket, or even with booster money. Almost assuredly came from Nike, an agency, or both.

I doubt X's shoe company when Miller was at X, was willing to drop that much money on a program like X was at that time.

[XUBison]

They do, but even if they have a carte blanche plan, there are limitations. At Xavier, you couldn't swipe twice in a single meal time (so no eating at 4 and again at 8). Then, if the cafeteria is closed you're just SOL. I remember the Xavier cafeteria closing at 8:30 and being a semi-active teenager, I regularly found myself hungry again later that night. Meals plans came with some credit for other food options on campus, but that credit easily ran out in a semester. So, I ended up paying for food quite often, but at least I had some money. And that's when, again, I was only semi-active (e.g. throwing a frisbee around or playing a quick pickup game of basketball). I didn't burn nearly as many calories per day as a high-D1 athlete would.

I'm guessing my experience to a significant extent is still applicable to current college students, and Lyons' experience at least was similar, as we overlapped in our time at Xavier.

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Same when I was there, but I had no money, and I didn’t starve, nor did I ever go without beer. It sure seemed the student athletes had a similar experience. Say what you want, but this narrative that star athletes from revenue generating sports are starving is a stupid lie, designed to promote the notion that they are used/abused, and should therefore be paid.

[XU-PA]

Arizona has announced Miller won't coach in their game tonight

[X-ceptional]

Somebody hit on it earlier, but the crimes that the FBI is interested in are bribery, corruption, wire fraud, and honest services fraud. They are applicable to these universities and their employees because the universities receive federal funds.

To my knowledge, the IRS has not yet gotten involved. While the FBI can investigate financial crimes, and obviously those will often have tax implications, the FBI itself does not have investigative jurisdiction over tax crimes; instead that falls to the IRS Criminal Investigation Division. They are very good at what they do.

Although here I'm not sure that IRS-CI will have to do too much heavy lifting when it's all said and done. Dollar amounts will eventually be revealed, and a simple audit should reveal whether or not those amounts were ever reported on a return (wild guess as to what that answer will be).

Lastly, as to whether it's a good use of taxpayer funds to investigate this because the tax income may not cover the costs of the investigation. Even disregarding the aspect that the FBI itself is not directly investigating the tax crimes, an income-expense analysis shouldn't be how criminal investigations are graded. While it sounds kind of crazy in context of "it's just college sports", these institutions get a lot of taxpayer dollars themselves and their employees may have been receiving or facilitating bribes. That's something worth looking into.

[XUFan09]

Same when I was there, but I had no money, and I didn’t starve, nor did I ever go without beer. It sure seemed the student athletes had a similar experience. Say what you want, but this narrative that star athletes from revenue generating sports are starving is a stupid lie, designed to promote the notion that they are used/abused, and should therefore be paid.

Tell me where I said "starving"? Hungry at times, yes, that's quite possible. Starving? No. Don't go making strawman arguments.

And considering that these guys consume over 1000 calories more per day than the average college student, the situation is not typical.

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[Nigel Tufnel]

Miller releases a statement saying he is confident he will be vindicated. What the hell is going on? If he turns out to be right, the folks at ESPN have some explaining and apologizing to do...especially Bilas and Vitale.

[GetUp5]

Former Xavier athlete (not basketball) and trust me, the players do not go hungry. They have normal meal plans and they have basically unlimited "X Cash" to buy food at other restaurants. Not to mention, they get supplements, protein shakes, etc etc at Cintas. There is never a time of the day that the players would want something to eat and not be able to get it. Stop it.

[bjf123]

Miller releases a statement saying he is confident he will be vindicated. What the hell is going on? If he turns out to be right, the folks at ESPN have some explaining and apologizing to do...especially Bilas and Vitale.

I wonder if the report of what he said wasn’t a verbatim quote, but rather a summarization with some poetic license added in for effect?


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[drudy23]

The only thing that can possibly be in play is that money never changed hands, or they know there is zero evidence that money ever changed hands. What else is there, besides Miller saying the wiretap "wasn't me".

Either way, I'm completely shocked they are letting Ayton play. How can he continue to play, and how can the games they've played, and their post season not be in jeopardy with his playing?

[XUBison]

Former Xavier athlete (not basketball) and trust me, the players do not go hungry. They have normal meal plans and they have basically unlimited "X Cash" to buy food at other restaurants. Not to mention, they get supplements, protein shakes, etc etc at Cintas. There is never a time of the day that the players would want something to eat and not be able to get it. Stop it.

Thank you.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I wonder if the report of what he said wasn’t a verbatim quote, but rather a summarization with some poetic license added in for effect?


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The whole story was unnamed sources....who knows if ESPN even heard the phone call. The FBI didn't leak the wiretap, so it was likely Dawkins' attorney...so there may be some issues with credibility. Ayton is playing tonight. The Miller statement was on Arizona letterhead, so, at this point, Zona is backing Miller. This is crazy.

[XUFan09]

Former Xavier athlete (not basketball) and trust me, the players do not go hungry. They have normal meal plans and they have basically unlimited "X Cash" to buy food at other restaurants. Not to mention, they get supplements, protein shakes, etc etc at Cintas. There is never a time of the day that the players would want something to eat and not be able to get it. Stop it.That's good to know. I know I've heard stories of players being hungry at times at other schools, but that could be because they had issues with bureaucratic mismanagement while Xavier has managed the situation well.

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