Serious question

[stammina0721]

Xavier proved last year that all you have to do is make the tourney then anything can happen. So I ask this... do we sit Tre for a few weeks to get him healthy and start Scrugs? We are already in so let Tre get healthy... get Scruggs big experience like Q did last year and be great come March at the expense of a few seed spots... thoughts

[AviatorX]

Xavier proved last year that all you have to do is make the tourney then anything can happen. So I ask this... do we sit Tre for a few weeks to get him healthy and start Scrugs? We are already in so let Tre get healthy... get Scruggs big experience like Q did last year and be great come March at the expense of a few seed spots... thoughts

I mean I think you know this, but absolutely no way unless Tre isn't healthy enough to go.

I'm as much a believer in "just get in" as anyone, and I do think X would have beat many many teams with how they played last March, but realistically the Maryland draw was VERY fortunate and playing any team coached by Leonard Hamilton is always a slight break. The reason you want as high a seed as possible is to increase the chances your draw plays into your favor.

[Xupergirl]

I honestly don’t know if we can get to the tournament without Tre. But this game today showed his injury may be effecting his playing.

[Olsingledigit]

I honestly don’t know if we can get to the tournament without Tre. But this game today showed his injury may be effecting his playing.

I agree. There has to be something wrong. He is not able to get shots and he was earlier in the season and his shooting percentage is going down.

[Xuperman]

I honestly don’t know if we can get to the tournament without Tre. But this game today showed his injury may be effecting his playing.

Getting in is a long way off BUT we WILL be in.....lost a history making chance today, to go where NO X TEAM HAS GONE BEFORE! To your point, something is not right with TB.....no other explanation for his 2nd half today. I continue to be very upset....:pissedoff:

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Tre missing so many FTs really got you thinking about his wellbeing.

[GIMMFD]

I'm worried, but you can't sit him, like stated before the seed line is important, we want to play the worst teams possible to advance, granted this year I'd take us against against just about anybody. He needs to heal up, and if that means limiting his minutes, or holding him back in practice a little do that, but to completely shut him down would be very tragic. There's still a Big East championship up for grabs, which though meaningless in the long run, would be something I want us to strive for.

[stammina0721]

This is where i disagree. 20 wins guarantees in with our conference. That plus some is a lock. I have watched the last 8 games and think sitting him till February till he gets healthy does this team a greater good. January wins dont matter only March win a count

[X Factor]

Tre is fine. He's just played poorly for a couple weeks.

He needs to play better. Period. This team needs him to play at a high level or other guys have to elevate their games.

[X Factor]

This is where i disagree. 20 wins guarantees in with our conference. That plus some is a lock. I have watched the last 8 games and think sitting him till February till he gets healthy does this team a greater good. January wins dont matter only March win a count

I'm sorry, this is ridiculous.

[stammina0721]

I say this cause not one person can tell me who Xavier played or what the result was Jan 10th last year but everyone can remember beating Arizona

[Xuperman]

Tre is fine. He's just played poorly for a couple weeks.

THIS is ridiculous....:bash:

[stammina0721]

Tre is fine. He's just played poorly for a couple weeks.

He needs to play better. Period. This team needs him to play at a high level or other guys have to elevate their games.

Really? Show me where Trae Young a true freshman not in the top 10 of his class has an off few weeks! Tre is hurt he needs to be healthy

[X Factor]

You want to sit our best player, who isn't injured, and in the meantime, sacrifice wins and seeding in the NCAA tournament? It's just asinine.

Mack: "Thanks Tre for coming back for your senior year, but we're gonna sit you for a month or so. I know you're not injured, but no one cares about January and February. Sure you only have 20 games left in your career, but I'm gonna make sure you're rested for the final 5 games."

You want a high seed in the NCAA tournament for a reason - it gives a team the best chance to make a FF.

I honestly can't believe I'm responding to this, it's so ridiculous to even think about.

[X Factor]

THIS is ridiculous....:bash:

He's still playing 30+ minutes a game, so he can't be too hurt to play a lot of minutes. You think Mack is just running him out there for the hell of it if he's that banged up? Is he sore? Probably. Has he played poorly for the past 6-7 games? Yeah, to his standards.

[stammina0721]

You want to sit our best player, who isn't injured, and in the meantime, sacrifice wins and seeding in the NCAA tournament? It's just asinine.

Mack: "Thanks Tre for coming back for your senior year, but we're gonna sit you for a month or so. I know you're not injured, but no one cares about January and February. Sure you only have 20 games left in your career, but I'm gonna make sure you're rested for the final 5 games."

You want a high seed in the NCAA tournament for a reason - it gives a team the best chance to make a FF.

I honestly can't believe I'm responding to this, it's so ridiculous to even think about.

From Tres own mouth he said he is not healthy. What more proof do you need other than words from the players own mouth

[Xupergirl]

A player as good as Bluiett doesn’t just “play bad a couple weeks”. I don’t know what’s wrong but it’s up to coach Mack and him to figure out what is best for HIM not just what’s best for the team. Period.

[X Factor]

Really? Show me where Trae Young a true freshman not in the top 10 of his class has an off few weeks! Tre is hurt he needs to be healthy

What are you talking about?

[X Factor]

A player as good as Bluiett doesn’t just “play bad a couple weeks”. I don’t know what’s wrong but it’s up to coach Mack and him to figure out what is best for HIM not just what’s best for the team. Period.

Why not? He's had some bad stretched in his career before. Everyone wants to believe there's no way in hell Trevon can play bad.

He's shot the ball poorly for 6-7 games in a row. Is he not getting the looks he was getting earlier in the year? Big East coaches have been game planning for him for 3 years now. They know his game and tendencies. Conference games are always harder, but he shot poorly for a few games prior to the conference season starting.

I don't know what it is, but his form looks the same, he's not grimacing at all, he's playing the same amount of minutes he has the entire year.

He did say he was rushing things on the offensive end and that he has to let the game come to him.

[stammina0721]

What are you talking about?

What do you mean? Im saying the best player on a team that is top 3 in the Big East which is a top 3 conference doesnt have an off few weeks without reason. Yeah they have an off game... I'll even say 2 but off weeks? That does not happen unless there is a reason. TRE says his shoulder isnt right. This isn't me blowing smoke that came straight from him. It's effecting his play to the point where he is becoming a liability. He is too good for that. I am just saying let him get healthy and let the real Tre take over Feb and March. January does not matter with the start we had

[stammina0721]

I think the team 2 years ago proved a 2 seed doesnt guarantee you the second weekend. So what does losing some seeding really matter?

[X Factor]

What do you mean? Im saying the best player on a team that is top 3 in the Big East which is a top 3 conference doesnt have an off few weeks without reason. Yeah they have an off game... I'll even say 2 but off weeks? That does not happen unless there is a reason. TRE says his shoulder isnt right. This isn't me blowing smoke that came straight from him. It's effecting his play to the point where he is becoming a liability. He is too good for that. I am just saying let him get healthy and let the real Tre take over Feb and March. January does not matter with the start we had

Where did he say his shoulder wasn't right?

I totally disagree with your premise that January doesn't matter.

[X Factor]

I think the team 2 years ago proved a 2 seed doesnt guarantee you the second weekend. So what does losing some seeding really matter?

So the how many other years of NCAA tournament basketball with Top 4 seeds dominating the FF and Championships means nothing because Xavier lost 2 years ago as a 2 seed?

[Xuperman]

I suspect the shoulder problem is more than they want to go public.....he is leaving them short from distance AND looked tenatative when going to the iron today.

[stammina0721]

Look to me it is obvious. The team the spanked Colorado which beat Arizona and Arizona State this week is not the team we see now. A large part of the is Tres' health. Let the man get healthy and make a serious run is all im saying. This is the year we have a real final four shot. I want us firing on all cylinders when crunch time comes

[stammina0721]

So the how many other years of NCAA tournament basketball with Top 4 seeds dominating the FF and Championships means nothing because Xavier lost 2 years ago as a 2 seed?

Unless it's all one seeds in the final four that proves seeding does not matter as much as how you are playing come March

[stammina0721]

Im sorry you can't be a Xavier fan and tell me seed matters. You can not see an 11 seed Xavier team go to an elite 8 and a 2 seed team lose round 2 and say seed matters. You can't say a 3 seed D. West team losing in round 2 to Maryland and seeing The Run team and tell me seed matters. Hell The Run team was 10-9 in late January after an embarrassing loss at GW.
Like I said the only thing that matters is how are you playing in March. It benefits X is Tre is healthy and firing on all cylinders at that time as opposed to grinding through injury now.

[Xupergirl]

We shouldn’t be here debating whether Tre is well enough to play or not. We have no idea what is really going on; maybe he’s just had a bad couple weeks or maybe he’s dying of pain. All I’m saying is He needs to get away from the pressure of people’s opinions and figure out what will be best for him. In the long run that will help the team as well.

[AviatorX]

You honestly should be banned for starting this thread.

I'm sure Trevon, an ultimate competitor chasing tons of individual and team goals, is just willing to go on the shelf for a chunk of his limited remaining college career. Maybe the dumbest thing I've read on here and you're talking yourself into it.

Remember watching Ed play through his shoulder injury last year before the ACL? These guys want to play no matter what. Should be obvious.

[AviatorX]

Im sorry you can't be a Xavier fan and tell me seed matters. You can not see an 11 seed Xavier team go to an elite 8 and a 2 seed team lose round 2 and say seed matters. You can't say a 3 seed D. West team losing in round 2 to Maryland and seeing The Run team and tell me seed matters. Hell The Run team was 10-9 in late January after an embarrassing loss at GW.
Like I said the only thing that matters is how are you playing in March. It benefits X is Tre is healthy and firing on all cylinders at that time as opposed to grinding through injury now.

Would you rather play a Horizon League team or a mid-upper tier ACC team in the first round? Get it together.

[stammina0721]

Well let's look at recent history. Play 15 seed lose to Wisconsin... Play Maryland go to elite 8. Play Troy first round lose to Maryland. Play Notre Dame first round go to sweet sixteen (despite the fact Lehigh beat Duke). This is only a few examples in all honesty there are many more. Xavier does better in the tournament playing better teams early. This is a statistical fact. So I choose middle tier ACC team over cake walk any day. We dont go far as a high seed.

[stammina0721]

It sounds assinine to say being a high seed is worse but we perform better that way. It's just a fact noone can deny results. All a higher seed gets you is one thing. One easy game and a huge target on your back. I'd rather sit at a 6 seed healthy and do the targeting as opposed to being unhealthy and being targeted

[stammina0721]

We just need to be healthy. March is already guaranteed we need to make sure our guy is not having shoulder issues

[bjf123]

We just need to be healthy. March is already guaranteed we need to make sure our guy is not having shoulder issues

I wouldn’t go that far. Finish with a losing conference record and we’re squarely on the outer edge of the bubble.


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[X Factor]

It sounds assinine to say being a high seed is worse but we perform better that way. It's just a fact noone can deny results. All a higher seed gets you is one thing. One easy game and a huge target on your back. I'd rather sit at a 6 seed healthy and do the targeting as opposed to being unhealthy and being targeted

This is so moronic. Why don't you send Coach Mack an email and let him know your plan. I'm sure he'd be on board. I bet he would rather be a 10-11 seed than a 2 or 3 seed.

[vee4xu]

Well, every team is dealing with injuries at some level at this time of year. So, if Tre is injured, unless he is completely unable to play, having him play at say, 80%, is better than playing someone like Scruggs at 100%. No offense to Scruggs, but Tre is nearly a 2,000 point scoring, battle tested senior. He has to play.

It seems to me that Tre has historically started seasons pretty well, only to sputter in mid-season in each year. What is wonder is, once teams see enough tape of Tre they can adjust, taking away things that work for him. Given that he is not the best ball handler and needs space to shoot (hence his step back jumper) that he is left to make his own adjustments. This issue is likely why he hasn't been encouraged to jump early to the NBA and why is probably will end up being a stellar college player, but not quite NBA material. In any event, I think he will right himself without sitting and take X deep into March.

[stammina0721]

This is so moronic. Why don't you send Coach Mack an email and let him know your plan. I'm sure he'd be on board. I bet he would rather be a 10-11 seed than a 2 or 3 seed.

Mack would say just get in and let the rest take care of itself. Sure a higher seed is fine for one game but after that seed is irrelevant. The teams the second round and on are all very good and at that point the number by your name means nothing. I'm sorry but if your best player is off for 8 games or 50% of the season then there is something else going on. That is undeniable

[xavierj]

Gates must be hurt too. Maybe they should sit him while we’re at it and play one of the walk on’s. Tre is fine and he won’t sit. But he does need to move more and let the game come to him. He is really pressing for some reason. Either way if they thought he was hurt, they wouldn’t keep running him out there. They are not dumb.

[bleedXblue]

Gates must be hurt too. Maybe they should sit him while we’re at it and play one of the walk on’s. Tre is fine and he won’t sit. But he does need to move more and let the game come to him. He is really pressing for some reason. Either way if they thought he was hurt, they wouldn’t keep running him out there. They are not dumb.

What I'm seeing is a team not playing very well right now and they look out of sync. Especially on the offensive end at times.

I sure hope Mack has something up his sleeve defensively for Weds. I don't see either man or 1-3-1 zone working very well against Nova. Maybe he throws some 2/3 zone at them? Maybe we just cant defend very well.......

Our strength against Nova is our depth..........and possibly in the post as Spellman is a frosh.

[drudy23]

I don't know that Tre is fine...find a strategic spot in the schedule to sit him for 1-2 weeks, if there is one.

[American X]

https://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/notsure-1.jpg

[mid major]

What concerns me is two years ago we went to the Dunk and beat a pretty good PC with Chris Dunn and Ben Bentil. We were tough and scary but yesterday we looked tentative, over-matched and it seemed no one wanted the ball. If it weren't for Kanter we would have lost by 30. I don't know what's going on but it doesn't feel good.

[Masterofreality]

Not our day yesterday, nothing more. Relax.
And we may well lose at Nova for 2 in a row, but we’ll be back, and I will be too, at Cintas on Saturday loaded for some Blue Jay stew.

[xavierj]

I don't know that Tre is fine...find a strategic spot in the schedule to sit him for 1-2 weeks, if there is one.

I don’t think there is a time they can rest him but don’t think it would make a difference. A lot of players during the course of the year have injuries and ailments, you just have to play through it. He is struggling but I think it’s the scouting reports more than any injury and he needs to figure out a way around it and stop forcing it. It’s almost like he gets nervous and starts taking bad shots. I think they need to run him off a ton of screens and get him going or find another person to step up. Either way they still are putting up points but need to find a way to get stops and stop turning the ball over. Yesterday they had a case case sloppy. They will be fine. I think the goal is to be your best late, not early. Even if you sit him the scouting report will stay the same when he comes back. They need to figure it out with him on the floor.

[AviatorX]

What concerns me is two years ago we went to the Dunk and beat a pretty good PC with Chris Dunn and Ben Bentil. We were tough and scary but yesterday we looked tentative, over-matched and it seemed no one wanted the ball. If it weren't for Kanter we would have lost by 30. I don't know what's going on but it doesn't feel good.

Yeah, and that team also got blitzed in Omaha by a terrible Creighton team and lost to a horrendous GTown at home. It happens in league play. I'm supremely confident this group won't suffer a loss anywhere near as bad as those two.

[xu koop scoop]

Think Tre is definitely hurting in the right shoulder. Up to him & Coach if he sits. A couple folks mentioned Scruggs starting if he sits. Naji would make more sense. Or go super big: Jones, Kanter & Gates

[XUFan09]

I have rarely seen such garbage takes delivered with such foolhardy conviction as what the OP has delivered. Bravo.

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[GetUp5]

Can't wait to read this message board after Xavier (most likely) loses to Nova Wednesday....

[X Factor]

Can't wait to read this message board after Xavier (most likely) loses to Nova Wednesday....

Probably won't be that bad considering X is 1-8 against Nova since joining the BE. It's not like we have a track record of playing well against them.

If we win, it will be the best win in Xavier history. Well, maybe Top 3.

[Tardy Turtle]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/954/Screen_Shot_2017-08-28_at_3.03.23_PM.png

[muethibp]

This thread is a great example of the tournament-obsessed focus people have that I just don't understand.

The tournament is a crapshoot. Great teams lose early, lesser teams get great draws and paths that open up for them when their bracket falls apart. Only occasionally can one say, "Yes, I am sure that this tournament has allowed the best team to prevail against the other best teams." The only real certainty for the tournament is that 99% of the teams lose their final game in the tournament. And, closer to home, Xavier has about a .5-1% (based on the simulation successes of 2-3 seeds over many tournaments) of winning the tournament. Put those two things together - tournament success mostly dependent on luck and your favorite team is almost certainly going to lose in the tournament - then it becomes confusing to me why so much emphasis and focus should be placed on the tournament and why a team's success is judged based on tournament record.

On the other hand, we have right in front of us something that is both beautiful in its competitive equality as well as realistically winnable: the Big East regular season title. In the first regard - competitive equality - different than almost every conference, the Big East regular season offers true round robin, home-and-home, 18 games each. The effect is that each team has essentially the same competitive experience. None of this easy path or one-bad-day-and-that's-it stuff like in the tournament. But a sufficient sample size of games, common to all participants, that far-more-often-than-not results in the best team winning.

Four seasons in and Xavier has finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, and 7th in this competition - or, said another way, as often in the top half of the competition as the bottom. The team's record is 42-30 in BE conference play going into this season which is pretty good but certainly nothing to get incredibly excited about and certainly offers substantial room for growth. This - winning the BE regular season title - should be the goal of this team every season. And while it's not likely to happen for this group, it is certainly a possibility, and something I desperately want.

All of which is to say, as relevant to the original post, rest the team's best player for 4-7 conference games, and let the race slip away, so as to focus on the who-the-heck-knows-what-will-happen tournament? Count me out.

[IM4X]

Well, every team is dealing with injuries at some level at this time of year. So, if Tre is injured, unless he is completely unable to play, having him play at say, 80%, is better than playing someone like Scruggs at 100%. No offense to Scruggs, but Tre is nearly a 2,000 point scoring, battle tested senior. He has to play.

It seems to me that Tre has historically started seasons pretty well, only to sputter in mid-season in each year. What is wonder is, once teams see enough tape of Tre they can adjust, taking away things that work for him. Given that he is not the best ball handler and needs space to shoot (hence his step back jumper) that he is left to make his own adjustments. This issue is likely why he hasn't been encouraged to jump early to the NBA and why is probably will end up being a stellar college player, but not quite NBA material. In any event, I think he will right himself without sitting and take X deep into March.

Your thoughts feel spot on to me.

I would add that this team is probably a little complacent. They see their ranking and see they are playing teams that on paper they should beat and they just don't seem to bring the same energy or tenacity from the get go as if they were playing against a top team like Nova. They start a game and are surprised to find their opponent is playing faster, hungrier and with more purpose which leads to easy buckets and X becoming a little rattled and out of their kind of game. X players start jacking up bad 3s instead of patiently finding the open guy for the easier bucket. Before you know it, X is down by 10+. When the opponent isn't nearly as skilled, X could fight back and win. It all seems to support the arguement that the team just isn't giving its best until there is a true sense of urgency.

None of us are happy about the loss to Providence, but we may find out it is the sort of loss that gets this team focused and feeling like they need to prove something agian. Some in the media think X is overrated and honestly, they have played like it recently. Yet, it doesn't feel like this team is so much overrated as much as it is under motivated. They needed a kick in the a$$... followed by a big game to get up for... insert Nova. Xavier teams in recent years have looked like crap for stretches, only to turn it around. I don't see why this season should feel any different.

It seems lately that either JP or Tre has played poorly in a game. Unfortunately, they both had bad games against Providence. Those two are going to turn it on. They just need to get back to finding their rhythm and their spots and not forcing bad shots.

[markchal]

If Tre is really hurt, I bet it's something that would require season-ending surgery to fully fix, and that he'd rather play his way through it. If it was as simple as sitting him a week, that would've happened by now.

I also think the "seed doesnt' matter" argument is patently absurd. Like some of the brighter posters have mentioned, we have a lot to play for and obviously playing worse seeds is a much better spot to be in.

Also, that season we finished 3rd in the BE, weren't we only a play-in team? It's crazy given how much stronger/deeper the conference is than it was that first season.

[Muskie]

In our 4th year of the Trevon Experience, I think we all know he's going to play absent a Chris shutting him down. Against Villanova, I don't see it. I don't know about you guys,, but I also value a Big East Championship. They are not mutually independent goals this season.

[paulxu]

And, closer to home, Xavier has about a .5-1% (based on the simulation successes of 2-3 seeds over many tournaments) of winning the tournament. Put those two things together - tournament success mostly dependent on luck and your favorite team is almost certainly going to lose in the tournament - then it becomes confusing to me why so much emphasis and focus should be placed on the tournament and why a team's success is judged based on tournament record.

I'm all for winning the BE. It's a very worthwhile endeavor, and I feel sure Mack does everything he can to make that happen.

But...I don't understand your thoughts at all. I'd trade a BE conference title in a heartbeat for a FF. Wouldn't think twice.
You remember who won the ACC last year? Of course not... but you remember who won the tournament.

Practically speaking, recruits and most of the media only care about the tournament. You do well, you get good recruits, you make a lot of money for playing in the dance...rinse and repeat. Does seeding matter? In the 33 years since expansion to 64 teams in '85, the #1,2 or 3 seed has won 29 of them.

[muethibp]

I'm all for winning the BE. It's a very worthwhile endeavor, and I feel sure Mack does everything he can to make that happen.

But...I don't understand your thoughts at all. I'd trade a BE conference title in a heartbeat for a FF. Wouldn't think twice.
You remember who won the ACC last year? Of course not... but you remember who won the tournament.

Practically speaking, recruits and most of the media only care about the tournament. You do well, you get good recruits, you make a lot of money for playing in the dance...rinse and repeat. Does seeding matter? In the 33 years since expansion to 64 teams in '85, the #1,2 or 3 seed has won 29 of them.

Respect your opinion. Not sure I agree with it all.

I guess, if a genie granted me such a choice, I would choose a final four over a regular season BE conference championship. Although I'd certainly have to stop and think of it, and were I to pick the final four, I would do so knowing that it may well be a lesser accomplishment (it's winning just four games and potentially four not-that-impressive games). There is no question in my mind that it is a truer testament to a team's quality to win a regular season championship. Nor is it simply below the program as a goal - if it happens this year, will be the first in 7 years, and generally Xavier has not been threatening in four years in the Big East.

As for "who remembers the ACC winner," I guess that's true. But I don't think that deep-but-short tournament runs are all that more memorable. I watch more basketball than 85% of the public and, sitting here, for the life of me, couldn't remember who Gonzaga and UNC beat in the Final 4. Nor do I think those long runs usher in some great new success for the teams that make it - the teams that have made it in the last 10 years are the bluebloods of basketball, while making the final 4 did not put Butler or VCU on some different plane. Nor do I think there is some recruiting coup as a result of a final 4 trip - South Carolina, for example, has no top 100 recruits (per ESPN) in the class of 2017 or 2018.

The reason I say all this - so as not to divorce it from the thread - is that the OP wants to sit the team's best player for a few weeks with an eye towards the tournament. My point is only to say that the regular season has great importance - to me, at least - not as a means to an end...not just as resume building, but as a compelling piece of competition itself. I don't want to see giving up on the conference race, for example, just because it might help win more games in March.

[Xuperman]

Thanks MUETHIBP for your insightful post. In order to get where all of Xavier nation wants to be, that being at the very pinnacle of D1 basketball, there should be no debate that certain boxes need to be checked. A regular season BE title, a BE tournament championship, a #1 ranking, a Final Four, play in the national championship game, a National Championship. Check them all, do them on a regular basis and your program will have reached that pinnacle. 40 years of climbing toward this goal and X has yet to check ONE box....BUT with this team the opportunity is here. The 10 or so truly ELITE programs do not hang sweet 16 banners.

[Emp]

Tre injured his shoulder seven games ago. On a stupid reach-in in the post. He's hurt, and when he can't shoot, he's harming us more than he's helping.

This is way beyond league wins or seed lines. Sit him, Get him healthy for March.

[GoMuskies]

Get him healthy for March.

Hell, get him healthy for February. Just get him right.

[Xuperman]

Until the status of the injury is made public, I worry that they have already concluded that rest/treatment will not fix the problem anytime soon.

[XMuskieFTW]

I'm not sold that this injury is the root cause of his bad play. He played excellent on a bum ankle last March. He looks like he's lost confidence. 3 for 10 from the line the past 2 games. That just screams confidence issue to me more than anything. Yea I'm sure his shoulder is an issue, but I don't think it's THE issue.

[UCGRAD4X]

I'm not sold that this injury is the root cause of his bad play. He played excellent on a bum ankle last March. He looks like he's lost confidence. 3 for 10 from the line the past 2 games. That just screams confidence issue to me more than anything. Yea I'm sure his shoulder is an issue, but I don't think it's THE issue.

He's played for three and a half years of high D1 level basketball (not to mention years of success before that) and NOW he's lost his confidence?

I'm not saying he hasn't, I'm just wondering why now?

If - and it may be a big if still (but getting, bit by bit, smaller all the time) ...if he indeed has a problem with his shoulder, which is affecting his play and making him lose his mojo, the injury then would actually be the root cause.

I'm not necessarily saying it is, I'm just considering the possibility and am open to other possibilities where his mojo went.

Hopefully it has a tag attached..."if found, drop in nearest mailbox"...with a Cintas Center address.

[XMuskieFTW]

He's played for three and a half years of high D1 level basketball (not to mention years of success before that) and NOW he's lost his confidence?

I'm not saying he hasn't, I'm just wondering why now?

If - and it may be a big if still (but getting, bit by bit, smaller all the time) ...if he indeed has a problem with his shoulder, which is affecting his play and making him lose his mojo, the injury then would actually be the root cause.

I'm not necessarily saying it is, I'm just considering the possibility and am open to other possibilities where his mojo went.

Hopefully it has a tag attached..."if found, drop in nearest mailbox"...with a Cintas Center address.

He's always been somewhat streaky. He had a 5 game stretch at the beginning of conference play last year where he shot 13/51 including 5/29 from 3. This stretch for him isn't unheard of.

I definitely think he has some injury, but the extent I'm not sure. I just don't think 3/10 on free throws is a physical problem as much as a mental one. I'd say his shoulder injury is affecting his mindset more than it is actually physically affecting him.

I'm not super concerned. He'll shoot his way out of this.

[XUFan09]

It actually reminds me of Gates after his knee scope. He was physically fine but seemed to have a mental block after the physical recovery was over.

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[Lloyd Braun]

In other news Tre is one of 25 finalists for the Wooden Award.

[SemajParlor]

Respect your opinion. Not sure I agree with it all.

As for "who remembers the ACC winner," I guess that's true. But I don't think that deep-but-short tournament runs are all that more memorable. I watch more basketball than 85% of the public and, sitting here, for the life of me, couldn't remember who Gonzaga and UNC beat in the Final 4. .

Really? They were both incredible games. South Carolina and Oregon. I guess everyone's different. I value a S16 appearance over winning the BE.

[stammina0721]

This thread is a great example of the tournament-obsessed focus people have that I just don't understand.

The tournament is a crapshoot. Great teams lose early, lesser teams get great draws and paths that open up for them when their bracket falls apart. Only occasionally can one say, "Yes, I am sure that this tournament has allowed the best team to prevail against the other best teams." The only real certainty for the tournament is that 99% of the teams lose their final game in the tournament. And, closer to home, Xavier has about a .5-1% (based on the simulation successes of 2-3 seeds over many tournaments) of winning the tournament. Put those two things together - tournament success mostly dependent on luck and your favorite team is almost certainly going to lose in the tournament - then it becomes confusing to me why so much emphasis and focus should be placed on the tournament and why a team's success is judged based on tournament record.

On the other hand, we have right in front of us something that is both beautiful in its competitive equality as well as realistically winnable: the Big East regular season title. In the first regard - competitive equality - different than almost every conference, the Big East regular season offers true round robin, home-and-home, 18 games each. The effect is that each team has essentially the same competitive experience. None of this easy path or one-bad-day-and-that's-it stuff like in the tournament. But a sufficient sample size of games, common to all participants, that far-more-often-than-not results in the best team winning.

Four seasons in and Xavier has finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, and 7th in this competition - or, said another way, as often in the top half of the competition as the bottom. The team's record is 42-30 in BE conference play going into this season which is pretty good but certainly nothing to get incredibly excited about and certainly offers substantial room for growth. This - winning the BE regular season title - should be the goal of this team every season. And while it's not likely to happen for this group, it is certainly a possibility, and something I desperately want.

All of which is to say, as relevant to the original post, rest the team's best player for 4-7 conference games, and let the race slip away, so as to focus on the who-the-heck-knows-what-will-happen tournament? Count me out.

Because in any sport the goal is a World Series, Superbowl, NCAA championship, World Cup or whatever. The end goal is not anything else. Want proof? Look at Marvin Lewis. Guy has won more AFC North championships than any Bengals coach on history but we all dislike him. Why? Cause he can't win in the Big Show. The Bengals winning the AFC North is like Xavier winning the Big East. Is it nice? Yes. But does it really mean anything? No. Go into a recruits house and say we won the Big East but lost in the opening round of the NCAA tournament, or say we lost the Big East tournament but went to the elite 8 or final 4 and see which line gets you further. Im sorry but the exposure and money that comes with advancing in the NCAA tournament is greater than any conference tournament. If you think otherwise your just misinformed

[stammina0721]

Like I said in a previous post though. Seed does not matter. If others disagree that is perfectly fine. It's just my opinion. Just get in. If seed mattered then the final four would be all one seeds every year. It isn't. This means lesser teams make the final four every year. Maybe that team is hot, maybe the coach changed something up OR maybe a team gets an injured player back. We fall into this last category in my opinion

[GoMuskies]

Seed matters. It matters a lot. But seed can be overcome. I'd rather have a lower seed and a healthy Trevon than a higher seed and a banged up Trevon.

[paulxu]

Does seeding matter? In the 33 years since expansion to 64 teams in '85, the #1,2 or 3 seed has won 29 of them.


Like I said in a previous post though. Seed does not matter. If others disagree that is perfectly fine. It's just my opinion. Just get in. If seed mattered then the final four would be all one seeds every year.

One of these things is not like the other.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Yes seeds matter. Especially first game and history also says the lower seeds win more often. Now I don’t want to be an 8/9 or even a 1 seed. I like the 3/4 7/10 seed. Feel like those are good seeds to have an upset occur and you end up playing the higher seed like when LeHigh beat Duke

[X Factor]

One of these things is not like the other.

Yep, seeding definitely matters. If you don't think it matters, you don't know anything about college basketball.

[stammina0721]

Yep, seeding definitely matters. If you don't think it matters, you don't know anything about college basketball.

Tell every one seed that loses before the final four that their seed mattered. Literally no matter what you say you can't tell me that a one seed mattered to any one seed that misses a final four. They supposedly get the easiest draw and play closest to home. If they lost then the seed did not matter. How can anyone say otherwise

[GoMuskies]

Tell every one seed that loses before the final four that their seed mattered. Literally no matter what you say you can't tell me that a one seed mattered to any one seed that misses a final four. They supposedly get the easiest draw and play closest to home. If they lost then the seed did not matter. How can anyone say otherwise

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it

[nuts4xu]

Tell every one seed that loses before the final four that their seed mattered. Literally no matter what you say you can't tell me that a one seed mattered to any one seed that misses a final four. They supposedly get the easiest draw and play closest to home. If they lost then the seed did not matter. How can anyone say otherwise

I can say otherwise....Your premise seems to be based on a tournament with only one #1 seed. No one says being a 1,2 or 3 seed guarantees winning the championship. Even if a 1,2 or 3 seed wins, there are 11 other teams with such a lofty seed that didn’t win it all.

However, based on xupauls’s stat above, the one that says 29 of 33 winners were either a 1,2 or 3 seed...leads me to believe your chances improve if you can secure one of the top 3 seeds in a region. I am not disagreeing with you, I’m just telling you - you are just plain wrong. Statistically speaking, your seed matters greatly.

[paulxu]

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-12-14/march-madness-brackets-how-do-seeds-perform-final-four

[GIMMFD]

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it

Best response ever. One of the best movies ever. Public and private reps.

[muethibp]

I can say otherwise....Your premise seems to be based on a tournament with only one #1 seed. No one says being a 1,2 or 3 seed guarantees winning the championship. Even if a 1,2 or 3 seed wins, there are 11 other teams with such a lofty seed that didn’t win it all.

However, based on xupauls’s stat above, the one that says 29 of 33 winners were either a 1,2 or 3 seed...leads me to believe your chances improve if you can secure one of the top 3 seeds in a region. I am not disagreeing with you, I’m just telling you - you are just plain wrong. Statistically speaking, your seed matters greatly.

I guess seeds matter but not for the causation reason you seem to be implying. Top seeds don't cause teams to do well in the tournament. Rather, the best teams secure the top seeds and one from the group of best teams almost always win the title (while a dozen or so similarly situated teams lose). If instead of giving the 12 best teams from the regular seasons the top seeds you told them they had to play the tournament in pink uniforms, at the end of the tournament you would be saying, "you know, over the years, teams that wear pink uniforms really do well in the tournament. Pink uniforms matter. They matter a lot. Statistically speaking, pink uniforms matter greatly."

[muethibp]

Really? They were both incredible games. South Carolina and Oregon. I guess everyone's different. I value a S16 appearance over winning the BE.

I've asked about a dozen active college basketball fans I know in the past few days and literally not one could name all four teams from last year's final four.

[XMuskieFTW]

I've asked about a dozen active college basketball fans I know in the past few days and literally not one could name all four teams from last year's final four.

Well that's just silly. I question how "active" of fans they really are.

[GoMuskies]

I had forgotten about South Carolina and Oregon. When someone mentioned South Carolina, the light bulb went off and I remembered their run. However, I don't remember a thing about Oregon last year. Did they beat Kansas after our game that Saturday? I think I was pretty tired, pissed and drunk at that point.

I'm also getting old.

[paulxu]

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it

Heard leaving a cabinet meeting....

[nuts4xu]

I guess seeds matter but not for the causation reason you seem to be implying. Top seeds don't cause teams to do well in the tournament. Rather, the best teams secure the top seeds and one from the group of best teams almost always win the title (while a dozen or so similarly situated teams lose). If instead of giving the 12 best teams from the regular seasons the top seeds you told them they had to play the tournament in pink uniforms, at the end of the tournament you would be saying, "you know, over the years, teams that wear pink uniforms really do well in the tournament. Pink uniforms matter. They matter a lot. Statistically speaking, pink uniforms matter greatly."

It’s simple, the probability of winning a championship increases greatly for those seeded 1-3. The probability is based solely on the number, there are many other variables that affect wether or not a team wins it all. The original poster states seeds don’t matter, based on the fact not all #1 seeds win the tournament.

The thing with statistics is you can make inferences to fit your opinion, based on what ever criteria you use. I can see one thing, while someone else sees the polar opposite.

[xu koop scoop]

Wasn't Butler an 8 seed & UConn a 9 seed in the Finals in 2014-15. Odds are better for 1-3 seeds, but any given year you can throw the odds out the window. Esp with the 3 pt line.

[94GRAD]

Wasn't Butler an 8 seed & UConn a 9 seed in the Finals in 2014-15. Odds are better for 1-3 seeds, but any given year you can throw the odds out the window. Esp with the 3 pt line.

YOU WANT TO BE A TOP 4 SEED!!!

Frequency of seed appearances in Final Four
SEED FINAL FOUR CHAMP. GAME NATIONAL CHAMP.
1 54 32 20
2 28 12 5
3 15 10 4
4 13 3 1
5 6 3 0
6 3 2 1
7 3 1 1
8 5 3 1
9 1 0 0
10 1 0 0
11 3 0 0
12 0 0 0
13 0 0 0
14 0 0 0
15 0 0 0
16 0 0 0

[markchal]

I have a great deal of admiration for the people sticking to this "seed doesn't matter" argument regardless of the mountains of evidence to the contrary.

[American X]

I have a great deal of admiration for the people sticking to this "seed doesn't matter" argument regardless of the mountains of evidence to the contrary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWlb57OSBlY

[nuts4xu]

Wasn't Butler an 8 seed & UConn a 9 seed in the Finals in 2014-15. Odds are better for 1-3 seeds, but any given year you can throw the odds out the window. Esp with the 3 pt line.

It happens sure, but those are the exceptions to the rule. If you are a lower seed, it doesn't mean you can't win it all, but history shows, the likelihood is better with higher seeds.

[mid major]

I've asked about a dozen active college basketball fans I know in the past few days and literally not one could name all four teams from last year's final four.

I've polled about a dozen so called Xavier Basketball fans in the past few days and none of them had ever heard of Brad Noble, Tyson Brit, Nate Turner or Kevin Carr. But they all came on board after the turn of the century so that explains why.

[X-band '01]

If not for Tyson Brit, Xavier's streak of .500 conference seasons or better gets snapped in 1996:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuXJrcUaIs4

[Muskie]

People haven’t heard of Kevin Carr?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[nuts4xu]

I've polled about a dozen so called Xavier Basketball fans in the past few days and none of them had ever heard of Brad Noble, Tyson Brit, Nate Turner or Kevin Carr. But they all came on board after the turn of the century so that explains why.

Tyson Britt was in the legendary class with Sherwin Anderson, and Ken Harvey. But Tyson left before their senior season.

Nate Turner was a kid out Middletown, and left after a couple uneventful seasons in the late 90’s. He was in a one person class the year behind Posey, Lumpkin, and Lenny Brown. If I remember correctly, he and Skip didn’t get along very well.

Kevin Carr was a JuCo transfer who went toe to toe with Marcus Camby and #1 ranked Umass when Caipari was coaching. Great guy, one of the better JuCos we had seen at Xavier, at the time.

I am 44, I’ve been regularly attending Xavier games for 32 years, and even I had to look up who the hell Brad Noble was. Dude only played 9 games for us back in Bob Staak’s final season. Props to anyone who remembered that guy off the top of their head.

[Masterofreality]

If not for Tyson Brit, Xavier's streak of .500 conference seasons or better gets snapped in 1995:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuXJrcUaIs4

Great find Band! Kels didn't exactly run that go ahead possession very well! :lmao:

[X-band '01]

Lenny Brown also took a hurried shot with a lot of time on the clock in that sequence. Brit was in the right place at the right time. Former Xavier assistant Kenya Hunter was also playing for Duquesne at the time.

[muskiefan82]

Brad Noble was an enforcer. Dude would knock your ass out with a screen.

[mid major]

Tyson Britt was in the legendary class with Sherwin Anderson, and Kent Harvey. But Tyson left before their senior season.

Nate Turner was a kid out Middletown, and left after a couple uneventful seasons in the late 90’s. He was in a one person class the year behind Posey, Lumpkin, and Lenny Brown. If I remember correctly, he and Skip didn’t get along very well.

Kevin Carr was a JuCo transfer who went toe to toe with Marcus Camby and #1 ranked Umass when Caipari was coaching. Great guy, one of the better JuCos we had seen at Xavier, at the time.

I am 44, I’ve been regularly attending Xavier games for 32 years, and even I had to look up who the hell Brad Noble was. Dude only played 9 games for us back in Bob Staak’s final season. Props to anyone who remembered that guy off the top of their head.

I remember Brad Noble. He was a gentle giant. Very quiet. I was a freshman and he had placed an ad in the Xavier Newswire about selling a Panasonic turntable and I bought it from him. I believe Nate Turner transferred to a small school in Tennessee. Kevin Carr was the first big guy I remember taking 3's. I don't know what happened to Brit. We always got lucky with those guys from Naptown. Indy guys generally worked out for us.

[X-band '01]

Forget where Nate Turner transferred, but you may be thinking of Leo Murray that ended up transferring to ETSU (and ended up returning to the Gardens as a Buc one year).

[mid major]

Forget where Nate Turner transferred, but you may be thinking of Leo Murray that ended up transferring to ETSU (and ended up returning to the Gardens as a Buc one year).

I thought it was some bible school down in Tennessee. It wasn't a division 1 school either. Boy, is DePaul really that bad. They lead Providence early in the 2nd half 46-34 and then proceeded to let PC go on a 22-0 run at home no less.

[XUFan09]

I thought it was some bible school down in Tennessee. It wasn't a division 1 school either. Boy, is DePaul really that bad. They lead Providence early in the 2nd half 46-34 and then proceeded to let PC go on a 22-0 run at home no less.DePaul had some pieces that can allow them to challenge good teams, but they just don't have enough to be consistent through a whole game.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mid major]

DePaul had some pieces that can allow them to challenge good teams, but they just don't have enough to be consistent through a whole game.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

DePaul cut PC's lead to 67-64 with a minute and a half left and then proceeded to do DePaul things. Regardless, they are vastly improved from last year. If Joe Hanel is not playing it definitely means they have improved.

[XUFan09]

DePaul cut PC's lead to 67-64 with a minute and a half left and then proceeded to do DePaul things. Regardless, they are vastly improved from last year. If Joe Hanel is not playing it definitely means they have improved.They have another transfer eligible next year, Jalen Coleman-Lands, but they lose Maric (who has been really good for them as a graduate transfer) and McCallum (who is alright but definitely replaceable). It will be interesting to see how they look, but I could see them being decent.

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[SemajParlor]

I've asked about a dozen active college basketball fans I know in the past few days and literally not one could name all four teams from last year's final four.

Did those same people know who won the regular season conference championships of power conferences?

[SemajParlor]

Life comes at you fast

[mohr5150]

Man, I sure am glad we sat Bluiett. He looks so much better after sitting out zero games.

[THRILLHOUSE]

This thread is aging so well, you guys.

[GoMuskies]

If not for Tyson Brit, Xavier's streak of .500 conference seasons or better gets snapped in 1996:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuXJrcUaIs4

Terrance Payne and Leo Murray sightings!!!

[X-band '01]

You pick up a couple of new things every time you see that video:

1) This board would have melted down repeatedly if the burden fell on Pat Kelsey to take clutch shots.

2) Darnell Williams had the flu that day - hence Brit being on the floor in crunch time.

[GIMMFD]

This thread is aging so well, you guys.

That's what you think, Mack is sitting him for the next Month so we can fall to a 7 seed. Better position to win, duh.

[XMuskieFTW]

Maybe if we sit Tre for like 6 games or so, he'll score 7 games worth of 3s in the next game. Definitely worth a shot.