Is This The Best X Team Ever?

[jhelmes37]

Yes, it's early.

Yes, a lot has yet to be decided.

And yes, I may get flamed for this............

But the fact of the matter is, here we are 10 games into the season, and I'm starting to ask myself the question.........

"Is this the best team Xavier has ever had?"

I know, I know, it's stupid to ask such questions in early December before conference season has even started.

You never know what's going to happen........

Even some of our "best" teams have been on the bad side of the March Madness Magic.

But this is a message board, and I'd love to hear what you think.

Here are my "best teams ever", ranked as I see them fit.

Best Team (although ultimately underachieved) 2015-2016 "The Wisconsin Heartbreak"

Sure, it didn't quite pan out the way we wanted it to, but the 2015-2016 season was one for the record books.

Jalen Reynolds, James Farr, Remy Abell, and a young Trevon and JP did their thing......

Going undefeated through the non-conference schedule, and not losing until New Year's Eve, the team was unreal from start to finish.

A 2-seed in the tournament.......well, we all know how it ended.

A Close Runner-Up 2007-2008

Yes, we ran into a buzzsaw with UCLA and its team full of NBA-ready talent.

But an early season victory against a top ranked Indiana team showed us exactly what we were in store for.

What a wild ride..............I think we all feel goosebumps when we hear "Do it, BJ, do it!"

Whenever I hear the names Stanley Burrell, Josh Duncan, Drew Lavender, BJ Raymond, and Jason Love, it brings back the warm fuzzies.

Third Place - The Flash In The Pan - 2009-2010

In the pre-season, we all saw the YouTube video of Jordan Crawford dunking on LeBron.

We knew we had something special in the works.

But we still had no clue what was in store for us in the postseason.

In what is likely remembered as the Greatest Postseason For A Xavier Player Ever, Jordan Crawford gave us a string of performances to remember.

The double-overtime thriller against Kansas State is still, to this day, the ONLY time I've ever been okay with the way a season has ended.

You could do nothing but tip your cap and say "great game, that was freaking awesome".

The Derrick Brown Overstep - 2008 - 2009

With the thrill of the Elite 8 behind us, we set off for a repeat performance.

From Day One, I thought that our team wasn't quite as flashy as the previous year's team, but we had a better TEAM and we had a better chance of winning games than we did the year before.

If it wasn't for one Derrick Brown misplaced toe, and a crazy last second shot by Levance Fields, who knows what may have been.......

Runners Up

The Run (2003 - 2004) - yes, it was possibly the most fun we've ever seen, but the actual TEAM wasn't all too amazing. You can tell me I'm full of shit if you wish, but we simply caught lightning in a bottle.

Fun? Oh hell yeah.

Put us on the map? You'd better believe it.

Best team? Not really.......

The Disappointment (2002 - 2003) - David West's Senior Campaign was ruined by Maryland in the second round.

The Castration (2011 - 2012) - What could have been one of our best years ever was "just another Sweet 16" after the Reflection Session was finally forgotten. (Zip 'Em Up!)

------------------

Okay, the question remains...............where do you rank THIS year's team?

It's too early to definitively decide, but we may be on the cusp of something truly special.

Discuss.

[XMuskieFTW]

Easily our best team.

[xdude]

Even at this early juncture, I would agree that this is likely the most talent ever to wear a Xavier uniform. Whether this is our best team ever will be decided in March. But man, these dudes are fun to watch!

[Xavier]

I think it’s certainly possible it’s the best team yet. No question, the offense appears to be best ever. Can they win when the offense isn’t on is my biggest question.

The 2015 team will be tough to beat. Obviously, a tough ending. But, they got all the way to #5, a 2 seed and ran through the #1, and eventual national champions, Villanova. Hell of a regular season.

The 08 is still my favorite. Was the first team I legitimately thought Xavier could win a National Championship with.


I want to see how this team plays against Nova. I’m not sure they have beaten a top 20 team yet (if I had to bet I’d say UC ends season right around 20, though)

[XUGRAD80]

Possibly,

I know that ASU is REALLY good, but they did beat X pretty easily, so you still have to take that into account. X has beaten a couple of teams that are pretty highly thought of right now....Baylor and UC.....and another that was expected to be pretty good, and isn't.....Wisconsin.....and some we know aren't real good. But, even if they don't lose another non-conference game, we still don't know what we have until they get into the meat of the BE schedule, and we see what happens in the post season.

Kind of like judging a movie after the 1st 15-20 minutes, or a baseball game after the 2nd inning. Gonna have to wait and see what happens, but so far the returns are pretty promising.

[xufan2020]

Can someone who clearly remembers the 02-03 season explain to me why that team is seemingly overlooked on this board? DWest as a senior, Sato and Chalmers Jr backcourt.. yes I know it was an unfortunate ending, but on paper that looks like as good a team X has ever put out

[GoMuskies]

Can someone who clearly remembers the 02-03 season explain to me why that team is seemingly overlooked on this board? DWest as a senior, Sato and Chalmers Jr backcourt.. yes I know it was an unfortunate ending, but on paper that looks like as good a team X has ever put out

I think out teams from the A-10 era needed to have Tournament success to earn their cred. We obviously give more weight to the regular season now that we're in the Big East.

[JTG]

Ever since the ASU game X has played smothering D like there are 6 of them on the floor. It has forced lots of turnovers which have led to layups and wide open shots. It has shell shocked opponents. By the time they recover we're up 20 and it becomes a game of just maintain a safe lead. Best ever, could be. I think revenge is driving this team, so Villanova beware.

[Section 200]

Can someone who clearly remembers the 02-03 season explain to me why that team is seemingly overlooked on this board? DWest as a senior, Sato and Chalmers Jr backcourt.. yes I know it was an unfortunate ending, but on paper that looks like as good a team X has ever put out

That team is overlooked because of the loss to Maryland. Maryland didn't have a great record and they took it right at us and we folded - game wasn't close. They also lost in the A-10 tourney to Temple who we beat by 30 a week or so earlier. They just seemed to peak too early and fall off. I think we won close at UD and then went into a funk to end the year. I remember thinking that if we can't get to the Sweet 16 with David West, will we ever get there again. Luckily things have worked out great!

[X Factor]

I think out teams from the A-10 era needed to have Tournament success to earn their cred. We obviously give more weight to the regular season now that we're in the Big East.

The A10 was a lot better back then than it is now though. Hell, in 03'-'04, St. Joe's was the #1 team in the country for most of the year, and was a hair away from making the Final Four.

I do agree that you have to give more weight to the regular season with the gauntlet X has to face in the Big East.

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Great work, 37.

We'll be adding to this thread all season long.

Thanks for setting it up -- great research and memories!

[GoMuskies]

The A10 was a lot better back then than it is now though. Hell, in 03'-'04, St. Joe's was the #1 team in the country for most of the year, and was a hair away from making the Final Four.

I do agree that you have to give more weight to the regular season with the gauntlet X has to face in the Big East.

No one gave the A-10 any credit, though. Do you not recall the Billy Packer rant about St. Joe's and the #1 seed? And was it the next year or two years later that the A-10 narrowly missed Juan Bid because GW lost in the conference tournament?

[stammina0721]

No and ill tell you why... This team couldnt beat the 2002 team. David west and Anthony Myles would eat up Jones and Omara. However the biggest factor would be Romain Sato is infinitely more athletic than Bluiett and would beat him on the boards with his ungodly verticle. Blueitt has a better shot but he would have a hard time getting open against the much more athletic Sato. Chalmers and Goodin is close but Chalmers was better as if now. The only advantage Xavier has today is JP being better than Keith Jackson

[bleedXblue]

No and ill tell you why... This team couldnt beat the 2002 team. David west and Anthony Myles would eat up Jones and Omara. However the biggest factor would be Romain Sato is infinitely more athletic than Bluiett and would beat him on the boards with his ungodly verticle. Blueitt has a better shot but he would have a hard time getting open against the much more athletic Sato. Chalmers and Goodin is close but Chalmers was better as if now. The only advantage Xavier has today is JP being better than Keith Jackson

I think you give A Myles a little to much credit. Also, the team this year has Gates and a much deeper bench. I think the game would be very, very close. Wouldn't that be fun to watch if we could? West and JP talking crap......

[Muskie in dayton]

No and ill tell you why... This team couldnt beat the 2002 team. David west and Anthony Myles would eat up Jones and Omara. However the biggest factor would be Romain Sato is infinitely more athletic than Bluiett and would beat him on the boards with his ungodly verticle. Blueitt has a better shot but he would have a hard time getting open against the much more athletic Sato. Chalmers and Goodin is close but Chalmers was better as if now. The only advantage Xavier has today is JP being better than Keith Jackson

That team had no depth. A freshman Caudle and Finn were the 6th and 7th man. Heck, Bitter Beer Face was logging meaningful minutes on that team. A junior Myles was only average, and West was the only senior. There were reasons they didn't make it out of the first weekend. Plus I'd take Mack coaching over Matta.

If West gets in foul trouble, the 17-18 team wins by 20. If West goes off, the 02-03 team wins. If they play 10 times, I'd project the current team wins 7. It would fun to watch!

[jhelmes37]

Great work, 37.

We'll be adding to this thread all season long.

Thanks for setting it up -- great research and memories!

My pleasure, Mel!

[X Factor]

No and ill tell you why... This team couldnt beat the 2002 team. David west and Anthony Myles would eat up Jones and Omara. However the biggest factor would be Romain Sato is infinitely more athletic than Bluiett and would beat him on the boards with his ungodly verticle. Blueitt has a better shot but he would have a hard time getting open against the much more athletic Sato. Chalmers and Goodin is close but Chalmers was better as if now. The only advantage Xavier has today is JP being better than Keith Jackson

Sato is my favorite X player of all time, but our current team would beat the '02-'03 team handily if both teams played their best.

[MuskieXU]

I would say that this is the best Xavier team I’ve ever seen through 10 games. This team is incredibly well rounded, no XU team has ever had this much talent and experience on one roster.

As for “best team ever” that can mean different things to different people. The 04 team during the run was playing the best basketball I’ve ever seen from an XU team. The 15 team has a case for best regular season team of all time. I think this team has a chance to surpass both of them but that’s yet to be seen.

[Muskie]

I'd easily place the Run Team over the Jordan Crawford team you selected or Derrick Brown's final campaign. The "Run" team would have beaten both of those teams. That's how good they were and the momentum they had. Just my two cents. So far this season this is clearly Trevon's best team. Although I'm still waiting for someone to step up with Tournament Malcolm Bernard's "win or go home" attitude.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Can someone who clearly remembers the 02-03 season explain to me why that team is seemingly overlooked on this board? DWest as a senior, Sato and Chalmers Jr backcourt.. yes I know it was an unfortunate ending, but on paper that looks like as good a team X has ever put out

4 of the 5 starters on the 02-03 team ended up getting drafted by NBA teams: West, Sato, Chalmers & Dave Young.

Pretty amazing, especially since a very competent Anthony Myles was the 5th starter. Still probably the best rebounding X team of all time. What hurt that team was a lack of depth and over reliance on West.

[Muskie]

4 of the 5 starters on the 02-03 team ended up getting drafted by NBA teams: West, Sato, Chalmers & Dave Young.

Pretty amazing, especially since a very competent Anthony Myles was the 5th starter. Still probably the best rebounding X team of all time. What hurt that team was a lack of depth and over reliance on West.
Young played in only 10 games of that 2002-2003 season averaging approximately 5 points. While it's true he transferred and was drafted by the Sonics, I don't recall him being a force.

[xuwin]

Young played in only 10 games of that 2002-2003 season averaging approximately 5 points. While it's true he transferred and was drafted by the Sonics, I don't recall him being a force.

Who replaced Young?

[MuskieXU]

I don’t think chalmers or Myles had particularly great seasons either. It’s hard to make a case for 03 as the best team ever because they didn’t have the best regular season ever, that would be 2015, and they didn’t have a great postseason. They also don’t have a stretch of games where they were completely dominating teams.

[GoMuskies]

Who replaced Young?

We had plenty of benchwarmers through the years who ably filled Young's role at Xavier. I don't ever recall the bench flying up in the air.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Young played in only 10 games of that 2002-2003 season averaging approximately 5 points. While it's true he transferred and was drafted by the Sonics, I don't recall him being a force.

And he only got drafted because Nate McMillan's brother coached Dave at NCCU and got Young a workout with the Sonics.

[markchal]

This is a very premature thread. It certainly could be the best by the end of the season, but as a few posters noted, the 15 and 8 teams will be very hard to pass. I think the Big East is gonna be pretty tough, and going to Northern Iowa will not be easy, there's still a lot to learn about this team. I do think this starting 5 would beat most 5s we've had, since they complement each other well and can score in a million ways. I am a bit concerned about our backcourt and bench. We have some solid bigs off the bench, but we will need more from Marshall and especially Scruggs as the season progresses. He doesn't look comfortable running the offense when Q is out, and while we are big and long, I think we're always gonna struggle against teams with good, quick guards.

I think the biggest thing, being so early in the season and not having many players, is staying healthy.

[BandDad]

This is a very premature thread. It certainly could be the best by the end of the season, but as a few posters noted, the 15 and 8 teams will be very hard to pass. I think the Big East is gonna be pretty tough, and going to Northern Iowa will not be easy, there's still a lot to learn about this team. I do think this starting 5 would beat most 5s we've had, since they complement each other well and can score in a million ways. I am a bit concerned about our backcourt and bench. We have some solid bigs off the bench, but we will need more from Marshall and especially Scruggs as the season progresses. He doesn't look comfortable running the offense when Q is out, and while we are big and long, I think we're always gonna struggle against teams with good, quick guards.

I think the biggest thing, being so early in the season and not having many players, is staying healthy.

Not having many players? We are 9.5 players deep as nine guys are averaging 13 minutes or more. This is the best team X has ever had - on paper. It will be very interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out. I think people put too much stock in The Dance to determine a team's worth. Too many times you run into a buzz saw (particularly with the three point shot) and it is one and your done. While I would rather have an phenomenal regular season and a great Tourney run, if we aren't going to win it all, I would rather have a great regular season. Three months of fun is much better than a couple of weeks (unless you meet the right woman!).

[Xavier]

Really? I would take last year full season over 2015 full season every day. Nothing better than the week between 2nd/3rd round. (Well, until we get that week between elite 8/Final Four)

[Backyard Champ]

I agree a bit with markchal. I think that this can be Xavier's best team, but in order to be the best team we've ever had, I think our backup guards have to get bettter. I think collectively, this is up there with the best front court we've had. Great depth, can beat you in multiple ways.

Regardless, this is a great team. Enjoy every moment this year, because you don't get to watch players like Tre very often.

[jhelmes37]

Really? I would take last year full season over 2015 full season every day. Nothing better than the week between 2nd/3rd round. (Well, until we get that week between elite 8/Final Four)

I agree. Last year was way more fun than '15.

But this was about the best team. And '15 was better. Of course, that's just one man's opinion.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

I agree. Last year was way more fun than '15.

But this was about the best team. And '15 was better. Of course, that's just one man's opinion.

Last year was only fun for the last two weekends, three if you want to include the Big East tournament. Besides that the other 80% of the season was pretty miserable.

[markchal]

Not having many players? We are 9.5 players deep as nine guys are averaging 13 minutes or more. This is the best team X has ever had - on paper. It will be very interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out. I think people put too much stock in The Dance to determine a team's worth. Too many times you run into a buzz saw (particularly with the three point shot) and it is one and your done. While I would rather have an phenomenal regular season and a great Tourney run, if we aren't going to win it all, I would rather have a great regular season. Three months of fun is much better than a couple of weeks (unless you meet the right woman!).

I think it's pretty misleading to say we're 9.5 deep. Harden rarely plays unless we're about 20-25 in the second half. Marshall has shown promise and has been our best frosh, but Scruggs seems uncomfortable running the offense for prolonged stretches and those two have been fairly careless with the ball. It's definitely a 9-man rotation, but I think we're closer to an 8.5 rotation than a 9.5.

My bigger point was though we only have those 10 guys, right? Am I forgetting about another scholarship guy? If we had an injury to anyone other than a center, that would be pretty taxing on our rotation. Staying healthy is gonna be the biggest key to having success this year (mostly because we have a lot of developed, experienced guys and we're already playing at a high level).

[MuskieXU]

The elite 8 run quickly made people forget how miserable it was for a preseason top 10 team to lose 10 out of 15 games at one point. 2015 was a much more enjoyable season. Running Dayton out of the gym, smacking UC, besting #1 Villanova, getting Xavier’s highest seed ever. The whole season get like a coming out party as Xavier being an elite program. I’d also argue it was more important to the program long term, but I’m not totally convinced of that compared to an Elite 8.

[UCGRAD4X]

The elite 8 run quickly made people forget how miserable it was for a preseason top 10 team to lose 10 out of 15 games at one point. 2015 was a much more enjoyable season. Running Dayton out of the gym, smacking UC, besting #1 Villanova, getting Xavier’s highest seed ever. The whole season get like a coming out party as Xavier being an elite program. I’d also argue it was more important to the program long term, but I’m not totally convinced of that compared to an Elite 8.

This all (quote and thread in general) really speaks not only to "the season is a lifetime" mantra, but also that the season is many parts - and each of those parts has a level of importance / significance that speaks to individual fans/supporters/followers in different ways and to varying degrees.

The non-conference schedule has its level of significance in that it sets up the resume or seeding and raises or lowers expectations. It also is the last chance to see how Xavier fares against teams who are not so familiar with each other. The ASU game is such an example of a team with a style of play have not seen (much if at all) and are not likely to see until NCAA (much if at all...unless some teams look at the tape of that game and decide to employ such a strategy - problem is - BE teams are not generally built that way). Some people just like to see us play someone new, who we rarely, if ever, play. Some people like the player development - how the veterans have improved and how the new guys will try to find their place and debate what the general prospects are for the newbies. Some talk about the 'revenge tour' and seem to gauge our improvement and their level of enthusiasm and excitement for the team for the rest of the season this way. Spending the rest of the season watching how these teams play as a measure of how good or bad a particular wins or loss looks retrospectively (some even to the extent of rooting for UC and going to confession more regularly). This is a great time of year after a long winter of debate, discontent, wailing and gnashing of teeth over recruitment (which has no bearing over this year but serves to put into perspective how certain player need to improve to avoid losing playing time, or the positive of being pushed by a high recruit - or worse - how the lack of recruiting will adversely affect the team for years to come). Great debates for sure.

There are the early exempt tournaments - maybe a microcosm of the BE tourney and/or the 'final dance'.

Then there is Big East play. Striving to be the flagship again. Fighting our way through the grueling home and home schedule, avoiding home losses at any cost and picking up those important road wins where even a bottom feeding team can come up and bite you....hard, even if you aren't 'looking past them'. Avoiding injury during the tough grind against physical play with teams that know and sometimes don't like each other.

The Big East tournament is another opportunity. Another reflection of NCAA tourney play. A last chance at revenge or dominance. A last opportunity to improve resume and seeding. An 'anything can happen' on 'any given day' feeling of excitement and a big prize for the triumphant. The win or go home aspect is a big rush for many, especially so close to the big tournament...the one most of us look toward as soon as the last game is played....and even before...

The NCAA Tournament, the Big Dance, the One Shining Moment, the exposure and the hoopla (no pun intended) the Emerald City after the long journey down all all the aforementioned roads. For some this is all that matters. This is what all of the other parts lead up to. The main reason for the other parts is a set up for seeding and match-ups, filling out the brackets, predicting future match-ups. Debating/complaining about seeding - ours and others. The excitement and anticipation. Win or go home. The possibility of euphoria or utter despair. The despised phrase: "Maybe next year" ...and the debate begins anew.

How good this team is will be determined in many parts, and each of us holds a level of importance to each of these parts which adds or detracts from their interest and excitement for the team - and even their level of disappointment. This is where they experience their highs and lows and debate where to go from here (from tweak the game plan to change player line-up/rotation/playing time/ to fire Mack!).

I think for most of us, the parts point to the final test, but the ride along the way should not be ignored. It is (almost always) a great ride with this team. Each of us will find our own seat on the X Train.

[paulxu]

I'm in the car where the bar is located, drinking my way through a week without Bball.

[American X]

It could be and I hope it is.

I would still have to pick 2007-2008 over this season's team to date. Burrell, Duncan, Lavendar & Co. were elite on both sides of the ball. Imagine the matchup of Hammer guarding Bluiett.

Regardless, savor every moment of this season.

[X Factor]

It could be and I hope it is.

I would still have to pick 2007-2008 over this season's team to date. Burrell, Duncan, Lavendar & Co. were elite on both sides of the ball. Imagine the matchup of Hammer guarding Bluiett.

Regardless, savor every moment of this season.

Right now, I'd probably go with that team as well. They finished the year #15 in KenPom's ranking. #8 Offense #39 Defense.

The '04 team finished the year #21 in KenPom's rankings. #21 Offense #20 Defense.

[X Factor]

Right now, I'd probably go with that team as well. They finished the year #15 in KenPom's ranking. #8 Offense #39 Defense.

The '04 team finished the year #21 in KenPom's rankings. #21 Offense #20 Defense.

The '09 team (Derrick Brown "toe on the line" Sweet 16 game!) finished #20 in KenPom's rankings. #53 Offense #12 Defense.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

The '09 team (Derrick Brown "toe on the line" Sweet 16 game!) finished #20 in KenPom's rankings. #53 Offense #12 Defense.

What did the 2015 team finish in kenpom?

[X Factor]

What did the 2015 team finish in kenpom?

They got a 6 seed in the NCAA Tournament. Finished #21 overall in KenPom's Rankings. #15 Offense #56 Defense.

[MuskieXU]

What did the 2015 team finish in kenpom?

I’m assuming you’re talking 2015/2016, the two seed. They finished 14, which is Xavier’s highest finish ever (only goes back to 2002 FWIW.) During the season, they were as high as 7 after the Wake Forrest game, which is the only time Xavier has been a top 10 Kenpom team.

[GoMuskies]

Sounds like KenPom is racist against Xavier.

By the way, the clearly superior Jeff Sagarin rates Xavier-Ohio #4. It used to kind of annoy me that he still included the Ohio, but now I find it kind of quaint.

[xu82]

Sounds like KenPom is racist against Xavier.

By the way, the clearly superior Jeff Sagarin rates Xavier-Ohio #4. It used to kind of annoy me that he still included the Ohio, but now I find it kind of quaint.

Back in the day I had to go to the USA Today, and often got the wrong Xavier. My how times have changed. I get to WATCH the game!

[GIMMFD]

I think to this point, even being able to argue that this is the best X team ever is a good sign. I think they've come together really well so far in the season, and they continue to progress. I'm pleasantly surprised by the performance of the bigs, which I thought might be a weak spot coming into the season, we have all the talent in the world, and on paper, recruit wise, this is the best team we've put out. Now, we still have some more tests coming up this season, and March is a lifetime away, but for now, I know I can appreciate how great we look, and just sit back and watch Tre and JP put on a senior show.

[gladdenguy]

Last year was only fun for the last two weekends, three if you want to include the Big East tournament. Besides that the other 80% of the season was pretty miserable.

Yeah but the misery for the season was well worth the last 2 weekends. I would take that every year. Love when teams come together in March and play their best basketball. Plus, the whole world is watching.

[gladdenguy]

That team is overlooked because of the loss to Maryland. Maryland didn't have a great record and they took it right at us and we folded - game wasn't close. They also lost in the A-10 tourney to Temple who we beat by 30 a week or so earlier. They just seemed to peak too early and fall off. I think we won close at UD and then went into a funk to end the year. I remember thinking that if we can't get to the Sweet 16 with David West, will we ever get there again. Luckily things have worked out great!

And the thing that pissed me off was Maryland played a piss poor game against UNC Wilmington and Drew Nicholas bailed them out. They were due for a good game. Never forget that shot because after he made it I punched my front door and it broke the glass in one of my small windows at the top of the door. I knew they were gonna beat us after Nicholas hit that shot.

[mistabeecee41]

i wasn't going to flame you for this, but i changed my mind.

[jhelmes37]

i wasn't going to flame you for this, but i changed my mind.

We won. Jinx avoided. ;)

[Emp]

Bump.

Best team to watch play, ever. So many heroes I will treasure as a fan. They play hard. Rattled seldom. Mack gives them plays that run them and it works. They all seem savvy, and the freshmen are learning with long minutes that will pay off in March. Damn these guys are good.

[OTRMUSKIE]

One of my biggest criticisms of Mack is the team doesn’t seem to run any plays. It’s almost like they just run down the court and take Ill advised shots. The second half of the Hall game I saw more play calling. I’m not sure this is the most exciting team to watch because they have played some really bad ball a lot this year. However this def could go down as the best year ever but we have way too long to go before deciding that. It’s been fun for sure!!!!

[xuwin]

One of my biggest criticisms of Mack is the team doesn’t seem to run any plays. It’s almost like they just run down the court and take Ill advised shots. The second half of the Hall game I saw more play calling. I’m not sure this is the most exciting team to watch because they have played some really bad ball a lot this year. However this def could go down as the best year ever but we have way too long to go before deciding that. It’s been fun for sure!!!!

I can't believe that you actually think that. Outside of Villanova I don't think there is a team in the country the executes their offense better than Xavier this year. The biggest place for improvement is on defense and I think that is getting better as the freshmen mature.

[Xavier]

I agree, Mack does a really good job of designing plays to put the ball in play makers hand. We haven't seen it as much this year but I think we will see it more and more where JP/Tre curl near top of key and get the ball with a decision to pass or shoot.

[RyanblockXU]

In my opinion X has a lot of improving to do on the defensive end before we can call this the best team ever.

But we have 2 killers on our team and thats enough to overcome a lot of issues.

Were a team where if we are hitting shots and the offensive is producing open looks, then we will beat most anyone.

But its in the games when even open looks aren't dropping that I worry about. Our offensive issues generally have a negative effect on our defensive effort. A few misses in a row, usually leads to a few defensive lapses and thats usually where we get behind.

We've made a lot of offenses look really good.


That said, in the tourney, I'd rather be an elite offensive team than an elite defensive team

[OTRMUSKIE]

Defense has been abysmal at times for sure but yes too many times I have seen x come down the court out of control and throw up some ridiculous shot. I’m constantly yelling run a Damn play!! But I’ll pay extra attention to the Marquette game and see how many offensive plays are really being ran.

[birdman71]

Thoughts on original question:
Might be our best team ever.
Probably the only team with every scholarship player able to contribute well.
Big East competition

Other great teams:

'87-'88 26-4
Guards Larkin and Kimbrough both over 2,000 career points!
Bigs Hill and Strong both went on to long NBA careers.

'89-90 28-5
Bigs Hill, Strong and Williams long NBA careers!
Davenport and Gladden
Barnett at the 3.
Beat Georgetown for our first sweet 16

'92-'93 24-6
Bigs Grant and Williams long NBA careers
Gladden and Mack.

We all know current Big East competition is tougher than the old days, but all these teams could bring it.
A final 4 could remove all doubt.

[GoMuskies]

I'm still with the 2008 team. This team certainly has a great shot to be.

[boozehound]

This is definitely our most fun team to watch. JP is shooting up the ranking of my all time favorite Xavier players. The Senior campaign he is putting together is truly incredible. I don't think I have ever seen more consistent effort from a player.

[stammina0721]

Defense has been abysmal at times for sure but yes too many times I have seen x come down the court out of control and throw up some ridiculous shot. I’m constantly yelling run a Damn play!! But I’ll pay extra attention to the Marquette game and see how many offensive plays are really being ran.

Would you even know? This isn't football where a play is always called. Basketball is different. Teams get roughly 70 possessions a game. No team calls 70 plays. You run a scheme and sometimes you pit in a wrinkle that acts as a set play. It's also hard to run set plays against zone as opposed to man to man. Guys just don't move. I'd love to see Chris Mack clear out a side and let Macura post up a 2 every now and then. This isn't the NBA though and the reality is you can't do that kind of stuff in college.

[stammina0721]

But Mack calls plenty. That isn't the issue

[OTRMUSKIE]

Well if Mack calls plenty then they arnt able to
Execute them. But I think you bring up a great point would you even know? I’ll watch the Marquette game more closely and see if I can see. I do agree with what you said though but when you watch nova I just see so much beautiful ball movement and players looking for the best shot. X just seems out of control
Way too much.

[smileyy]

I'd love to see Chris Mack clear out a side and let Macura post up a 2 every now and then. This isn't the NBA though and the reality is you can't do that kind of stuff in college.

Tough to do that in the NBA, too, with modern defenses.

[smileyy]

I wonder how much of the critique of the offense has to do with the priorities of shots that the Muskies go after. They want two shots: a shot at the rim (or at least in the paint within a few feet of the rim), or a 3-pointer. Those are the most successful shots in the game*. Compare Xavier's shot charts to St. John's or Seton Hall's and I expect you'll see a world of difference. I suspect Villanova's look a lot like Xavier's.

* Yeah, yeah, Trevon Bluiett mid-range jumper, I know.

[XUFan09]

Xavier has a top 10 offense. There's room for critique but these complaints are unsubstantiated.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[GIMMFD]

Xavier has a top 10 offense. There's room for critique but these complaints are unsubstantiated.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yeah, I understand defensive complaints, because we have a lot to be desired there, but we are pretty damn good on offense, especially when we're clicking. We've obviously had a couple games where Tre and Macura have been off and it's affected us, but if those guys are getting and hitting good shots, we have a massive arsenal of weapons that can score and it becomes pick your poison at that rate. We definitely have some shortcomings on offense, but that should be the least of our worries to be honest.

[IM4X]

...its in the games when even open looks aren't dropping that I worry about. Our offensive issues generally have a negative effect on our defensive effort. A few misses in a row, usually leads to a few defensive lapses and thats usually where we get behind.

We've made a lot of offenses look really good.

Agreed- this is a bit frustrating at times- this it is easily correctable and hopefuy it is something they are working to fix.

[IM4X]

Other great teams:

'87-'88 26-4
Guards Larkin and Kimbrough both over 2,000 career points!
Bigs Hill and Strong both went on to long NBA careers.

'89-90 28-5
Bigs Hill, Strong and Williams long NBA careers!
Davenport and Gladden
Barnett at the 3.
Beat Georgetown for our first sweet 16

'92-'93 24-6
Bigs Grant and Williams long NBA careers
Gladden and Mack.

We all know current Big East competition is tougher than the old days, but all these teams could bring it.
A final 4 could remove all doubt.


What a glorious game that was to see in person. Our Twin Towers outplaying theirs.

[IM4X]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNissmT4wI

The opening minutes and the ending of that incredible 2nd Round game against Georgetown.

Starts at the 2:36 mark if anyone is interested.

[GenerationX]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNissmT4wI

The opening minutes and the ending of that incredible 2nd Round game against Georgetown.

Starts at the 2:36 mark if anyone is interested.


Thank you, IM4X! The X vs. Georgetown game begins around 2:36:15, to be precise. This is a 4-hour long video... pretty cool to see the coaches and announcers, not to mention the players, back then.

[LA Muskie]

I think this team pretty clearly is the most talented team XU has put on a court. We have 8 legitimate starters in a 9-man rotation, two All Big East caliber players, two underclassmen who will be All Big East during their careers (at least one of whom is destined for the NBA), and 3 exerienced bigs with varied skills -- any of whom can dominate on any given day.

That's not to say they will reach the greatest heights of any team we've put on the court. But top to bottom, I can't think of a more talented one.

[GoMuskies]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNissmT4wI

The opening minutes and the ending of that incredible 2nd Round game against Georgetown.

Starts at the 2:36 mark if anyone is interested.

This will probably be unpopular here, but Xavier's win over Georgetown is only my second favorite game that day. Given the circumstances, LMU over defending champion Michigan by 30 still has the top spot for me.

[markchal]

I think this team pretty clearly is the most talented team XU has put on a court. We have 8 legitimate starters in a 9-man rotation, two All Big East caliber players, two underclassmen who will be All Big East during their careers (at least one of whom is destined for the NBA), and 3 exerienced bigs with varied skills -- any of whom can dominate on any given day.

That's not to say they will reach the greatest heights of any team we've put on the court. But top to bottom, I can't think of a more talented one.

It's certainly close, but I still think I have to give the nod to the 2008 team. What two underclassmen do you think are All Big East locks? Naji and...Q? Scruggs or Jones possibly but I don't know that either is necessarily a lock.

I kind of think Tre gets underrated in the pantheon of Xavier greats, possibly because he's not the most athletic, but his career is pretty incredible. That said, that 2008 team was chock full of talented players. Duncan, Burrell, Lavender (who was our first Mcdonald's AA, right?), CJ Anderson (another underrated X player IMO), BJ Raymond, Derrick Brown, Dante Jackson, Jason Love and Joe Hughes. That's a pretty strong roster, full of upperclassmen that came to play on a pretty consistent basis. With both teams playing their best, maybe I'd give the nod to this team, but they still have some work to do this season to fully eclipse that. That was a really good team.

[muskiefan82]

This will probably be unpopular here, but Xavier's win over Georgetown is only my second favorite game that day. Given the circumstances, LMU over defending champion Michigan by 30 still has the top spot for me.

LMU was amazing back then. The two games X played against them are still two of my favorites. Hank Gathers is still one of the best players I've ever seen. Such a shame, but the run they went on without him was amazing. Bo Kimble, Per Stumer, and Jeff Fryer (who went crazy that game) were amazing. Still remember Kimble shooting the 1st free throw every game left handed to honor Gathers.

[Xville]

It depends....they are going to go as far as their defense takes them. This is not a very talented group defensively, but as we have seen, if the effort is there, they can clamp down enough to get to the third weekend. However, if their effort is lagging like it has many times this season, I can see them getting bounced the first weekend too.

I'm more of a results oriented person so they win or come in second in the Big East and make it to at least the Elite Eight, then they can be in the conversation. Until then, I think we just enjoy the ride and see what happens over the course of the next two months.

[birdman71]

LMU was amazing back then. The two games X played against them are still two of my favorites. Hank Gathers is still one of the best players I've ever seen. Such a shame, but the run they went on without him was amazing. Bo Kimble, Per Stumer, and Jeff Fryer (who went crazy that game) were amazing. Still remember Kimble shooting the 1st free throw every game left handed to honor Gathers.


My neck still hurts from watching that fast paced game at the Gardens.
116-113?

[muskiefan82]

My neck still hurts from watching that fast paced game at the Gardens.
116-113?

I think it was 115-113, but it's been a while. I think Tyrone Hill and Derek Strong both went for over 20 pts and 20 rebounds that game. Those two were phenomenal.

[Blue Blooded-05]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNissmT4wI

The opening minutes and the ending of that incredible 2nd Round game against Georgetown.

Starts at the 2:36 mark if anyone is interested.

I never knew D’Artagnan used to be sans-mustache. While clearly less badass, I bet it was easier for him to get into Chuck-E-Cheese back then

[X-band '01]

D'Artagnan added the mustache my freshman year at Xavier.

[MHettel]

Thoughts on original question:
Might be our best team ever.
Probably the only team with every scholarship player able to contribute well.
Big East competition

Other great teams:

'87-'88 26-4
Guards Larkin and Kimbrough both over 2,000 career points!
Bigs Hill and Strong both went on to long NBA careers.

'89-90 28-5
Bigs Hill, Strong and Williams long NBA careers!
Davenport and Gladden
Barnett at the 3.
Beat Georgetown for our first sweet 16

'92-'93 24-6
Bigs Grant and Williams long NBA careers
Gladden and Mack.

We all know current Big East competition is tougher than the old days, but all these teams could bring it.
A final 4 could remove all doubt.

Fact Check
Seriously?

[X-band '01]

He's correct. Kimbrough had 507 points at Central Florida his freshman year and 1,596 in 3 years at Xavier. 2,103 points for his collegiate career.

[Muskeagle]

I think it was 115-113, but it's been a while. I think Tyrone Hill and Derek Strong both went for over 20 pts and 20 rebounds that game. Those two were phenomenal.

I was at the game. I think 115-113 is correct. Jamal Walker won it with a floater in the lane. This game featured Hank Gathers a couple of weeks before he died. The story goes, that he had collapsed earlier in the year and was under medication for a time....including the game at X. He felt sluggish and didn't like how it affected his game. Probably to improve his NBA chances, he went off the drugs a little after the Xavier game and soon collapsed and died on the court. Gathers was indeed sluggish during the X game and didn't really impress me (I didn't know the full story at the time), but Kimble was spectacular. Gathers scored 20 points on 7-23 shooting and had 8 boards. Kimble had 38 pts on 13-19 shooting (inc. 7 of 8 from 3). One of the three best performances I've seen live AGAINST X (Kyle Korver and Glen Rice being the other two).

Hill went for 38pts and 20rebs. Strong went for 24 and 24. Wow!

[IM4X]

This will probably be unpopular here, but Xavier's win over Georgetown is only my second favorite game that day. Given the circumstances, LMU over defending champion Michigan by 30 still has the top spot for me.

Wow... Really? I mean, yes it was special what they did- no doubt.

But we are talking about

• Our first sweet sixteen ever
• Our little known twin towers outplaying their much hyped twin towers
• No one thought we'd win (much like LMU)
• Oh, and I had center court seats about ten rows from the floor (Thank you departing ticket holders whose team played in the first game and lost).

[skyking]

Wow... Really? I mean, yes it was special what they did- no doubt.

But we are talking about

• Our first sweet sixteen ever
• Our little known twin towers outplaying their much hyped twin towers
• No one thought we'd win (much like LMU)
• Oh, and I had center court seats about ten rows from the floor (Thank you departing ticket holders whose team played in the first game and lost).

We did the same thing. Bought cheap tickets from a scalper and walked down to great seats. It was a great day to be a Muskie.

[GoMuskies]

Wow... Really? I mean, yes it was special what they did- no doubt.

But we are talking about

• Our first sweet sixteen ever
• Our little known twin towers outplaying their much hyped twin towers
• No one thought we'd win (much like LMU)
• Oh, and I had center court seats about ten rows from the floor (Thank you departing ticket holders whose team played in the first game and lost).

Well, I was 13 in 1990, lived in Louisville with no real connection to Xavier yet (though I was already a fan), and I had fallen in love with that LMU team even before Gathers died. They played a game at LSU (with Shaq and Chris Jackson) that year that was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. Probably pretty similar to their game at Xavier, but that one wasn't on TV for me.

[SemajParlor]

I think this team pretty clearly is the most talented team XU has put on a court. We have 8 legitimate starters in a 9-man rotation, two All Big East caliber players, two underclassmen who will be All Big East during their careers (at least one of whom is destined for the NBA), and 3 exerienced bigs with varied skills -- any of whom can dominate on any given day.

That's not to say they will reach the greatest heights of any team we've put on the court. But top to bottom, I can't think of a more talented one.

I think I agree with this take. Blueitt and Macura don't come around too often.

[GoMuskies]

I think I agree with this take. Blueitt and Macura don't come around too often.

Neither do Lavender and Brown. It's a tight race for all-time #1!

[GIMMFD]

I think I agree with this take. Blueitt and Macura don't come around too often.

I don't know if I necessarily say I agree, but I will say that both of their games compliment each other really well. Macura is the in your face, guy that everyone loves to hate, while Tre usually goes about his business silently, next thing you know, they combined for like 40 points somehow.

[SemajParlor]

Macura is the in your face, guy that everyone loves to hate, while Tre usually goes about his business silently, next thing you know, they combined for like 40 points somehow.


https://media.baselineresearch.com/images/79245/79245_full.jpg

[stammina0721]

That is just a maturity thing. Nova doesnt try and push the issue. They take what is given. I think one of Xavier's problems was Blueitt pushing hard for 2K points. I think he along with others got wrapped up in stats and forced a lot that just was not there. I could be wrong but it is just my guess. I think the players have seen the error of doing that and we will see some great basketball down the stretch

[Xavier]

What?

[X-ceptional]

I could be wrong

Let's just go ahead and dispel any doubt about that.

[xu82]

What?

I think he was supposed to NOT shoot until he reached 2,000 points. That would have solved everything!

[GIMMFD]

https://media.baselineresearch.com/images/79245/79245_full.jpg

Beautifully executed.

[xdude]

Fun that this thread recalls some great Xavier teams. I'll go with this year's as the deepest ever for sure, best ever has to wait for The Dance.

Let's not forget we have four seniors on this team, all who can likely play professional ball somewhere.

[IM4X]

We did the same thing. Bought cheap tickets from a scalper and walked down to great seats. It was a great day to be a Muskie.


:logo: Yes it was indeed!

[IM4X]

Well, I was 13 in 1990, lived in Louisville with no real connection to Xavier yet (though I was already a fan), and I had fallen in love with that LMU team even before Gathers died. They played a game at LSU (with Shaq and Chris Jackson) that year that was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. Probably pretty similar to their game at Xavier, but that one wasn't on TV for me.

I figured there was a good reason.

I always enjoyed watching LMU (and their lightning fast tempo).

Do you remember if you happened to catch the game between X and LMU that same year?

It was a great game - X won by two and Hill had 38 points.

http://www.lmulions.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/021805aah.html

[stammina0721]

I was just saying I think he was pressing to get to 2k faster. Lots of forced threes or dribbling into triple teams the past few weeks. Now that the milestone has been hit I am anticipating our offense to get even better than it already is.

[IM4X]

http://www.xavierhoops.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by GIMMFD http://www.xavierhoops.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?p=608531#post608531)
Macura is the in your face, guy that everyone loves to hate, while Tre usually goes about his business silently, next thing you know, they combined for like 40 points somehow.




https://media.baselineresearch.com/images/79245/79245_full.jpg

What do you know... A picture really is worth a thousand words... or in the case with your picture... 31.

Still, nice job!

[GIMMFD]

I was just saying I think he was pressing to get to 2k faster. Lots of forced threes or dribbling into triple teams the past few weeks. Now that the milestone has been hit I am anticipating our offense to get even better than it already is.

You could very well be right about that, I'm sure it was in his mind even if he would say otherwise, it's just natural. I'm sure that now that the monkey is off his back, he'll slow it down and be early year Tre again, and that Tre is the one that has the ability to will us to a Final 4.

[xuwin]

That is just a maturity thing. Nova doesnt try and push the issue. They take what is given. I think one of Xavier's problems was Blueitt pushing hard for 2K points. I think he along with others got wrapped up in stats and forced a lot that just was not there. I could be wrong but it is just my guess. I think the players have seen the error of doing that and we will see some great basketball down the stretch

Trevon has averaged 13 shots per game and JP has averaged 9 shots per game this year. That's not exactly forcing it for your star players who average 19 and 13 points per game. If anything they are too unselfish at times.

[XMuskieFTW]

Trevon has averaged 13 shots per game and JP has averaged 9 shots per game this year. That's not exactly forcing it for your star players who average 19 and 13 points per game. If anything they are too unselfish at times.

Exactly. His shots per game are down from last year and he's more efficient in every shooting category. His assists have also gone from 2.1 last year to 2.7 per game this year. It's nice to have a proven senior who can take over when necessary, but also knows when to defer when he's getting double teams.

[xu koop scoop]

What exactly defines Best Team Ever. Best Overall Record? Best Finish in NCAA? I think the team that was undefeated going into & after the UC "Brawl" game with Lyons, Holloway, Kenny Frease etc.... should have been our Best Team Ever, but that "brawl", comments after & suspensions got into our teams
psyche & fractured that season. Watching that UC game I kept telling my buddies, "Pull the starters NOW". That was with about 2 minutes to go. We had the game in hand & the trash talking was getting ugly. If we pull most starters for 2nd or 3rd stringers - then the subs are not going to start or continue trash talk. Once the fight erupts my buddies looked at me & I said, "Now you see why starters needed OUT"
To this very day it amazes me how so many coaches leave their starters in to the very end or at least the last few seconds, even with a double digit point lead. Before the 3 pt line became popular it seems starters were pulled earlier.

[Backyard Champ]

What exactly defines Best Team Ever. Best Overall Record? Best Finish in NCAA? I think the team that was undefeated going into & after the UC "Brawl" game with Lyons, Holloway, Kenny Frease etc.... should have been our Best Team Ever, but that "brawl", comments after & suspensions got into our teams
psyche & fractured that season. Watching that UC game I kept telling my buddies, "Pull the starters NOW". That was with about 2 minutes to go. We had the game in hand & the trash talking was getting ugly. If we pull most starters for 2nd or 3rd stringers - then the subs are not going to start or continue trash talk. Once the fight erupts my buddies looked at me & I said, "Now you see why starters needed OUT"
To this very day it amazes me how so many coaches leave their starters in to the very end or at least the last few seconds, even with a double digit point lead. Before the 3 pt line became popular it seems starters were pulled earlier.

You sound like you'd be fun to watch a game with.

[bleedXblue]

No question this team b/c of DEPTH. Without any doubt the most solid 1-9 players we have ever had.

We are talking about the best TEAM

[GIMMFD]

No question this team b/c of DEPTH. Without any doubt the most solid 1-9 players we have ever had.

We are talking about the best TEAM

Yeah but I still think results matter, we may have the best depth ever this year, but if they can't gel together and put together a solid showing for the rest of the season, do we still consider it the best team ever?? It's just something to mull over.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Yeah but I still think results matter, we may have the best depth ever this year, but if they can't gel together and put together a solid showing for the rest of the season, do we still consider it the best team ever?? It's just something to mull over.

Sheesh 19-3 I would say things are very much alright. Lol!
I am not sure if it’s the best ever but this is an awesome team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[X-band '01]

To this very day it amazes me how so many coaches leave their starters in to the very end or at least the last few seconds, even with a double digit point lead. Before the 3 pt line became popular it seems starters were pulled earlier.

I think you're on to something here. The three-point line was responsible for reflection sessions that year!

[Muskie]

What exactly defines Best Team Ever. Best Overall Record? Best Finish in NCAA? I think the team that was undefeated going into & after the UC "Brawl" game with Lyons, Holloway, Kenny Frease etc.... should have been our Best Team Ever, but that "brawl", comments after & suspensions got into our teams
psyche & fractured that season. Watching that UC game I kept telling my buddies, "Pull the starters NOW". That was with about 2 minutes to go. We had the game in hand & the trash talking was getting ugly. If we pull most starters for 2nd or 3rd stringers - then the subs are not going to start or continue trash talk. Once the fight erupts my buddies looked at me & I said, "Now you see why starters needed OUT"
To this very day it amazes me how so many coaches leave their starters in to the very end or at least the last few seconds, even with a double digit point lead. Before the 3 pt line became popular it seems starters were pulled earlier.

I wanted the starters pulled that day as well.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Hindsight is 20/20, Tu and Frease were seniors. Not unusual to leave them in for the standing O.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blue Blooded-05]

If there was 1 good thing about the brawl, the name “Egg-zavier” was finally eradicated from the national media.

[chico]

I'm still with the 2008 team. This team certainly has a great shot to be.

I tend to agree with this as things stand right now, but it would've taken a perfect game to beat UCLA that year. I don't feel that way about this year's team. I don't think there is any team that we can't stand toe to toe with, even on other team's best days like the '98 team faced with UCLA. No other team has had the depth and the talent this team has. But the only thing that really matters is what happens in March, so the jury's still out.

If Darnell Williams doesn't blow out his knee, though, the 1999 team would've likely been in the conversation.

[GoMuskies]

it would've taken a perfect game to beat UCLA that year

Based on the rest of UCLA's results in the Tournament that year, I beg to differ. They had a ton of talent, but that great Xavier team just played like shit that day.

[UCGRAD4X]

I would say unequivocally, this is by far the best Xavier team this year.

[chico]

Based on the rest of UCLA's results in the Tournament that year, I beg to differ. They had a ton of talent, but that great Xavier team just played like shit that day.

They did play awful, but UCLA was loaded. They had one close game and lost in the final 4 to the team that, if not for a historic choke job, wins the national title with 1 loss. I still think that as good as our team was, even if they play a great game they sill would've had trouble beating UCLA that day. We needed a perfect game to beat them. If both teams were playing at their best I still think UCLA wins 8 out of 10 times. The difference is that this year I don't think there's a team that we can only beat on our best day.

[GoMuskies]

Western Kentucky was right there with them until the end. That team was talented, but they were not a great "team".

[dc_x]

Here is my top 10 with kenpom computer, sagarin computer, ncaa seed, and final AP rankings (final poll before NCAA tournament). KenPom only goes back to 2002 and Sagarin only goes back to 2000.

1. 2008 (kenpom #13, sagarin #11, ncaa seed #3, final AP rank #12) ... super deep team (Brown, Lavender, Burrell, Love, CJ Anderson, Duncan, Raymond), went to elite 8. the 2018 team may be better, but let's see what happens in March.

2. 2018 (kenpom #13, sagarin #10, projected ncaa seed #2, current AP rank #8) ... on paper, pretty close to the 2008 team

3. 2016 (kenpom #14, sagarin #13, ncaa seed #2, final AP rank #9) ... best ncaa seed ever, flamed out to Wisconsin in 2nd round

4. 2003 (kenpom #20, sagarin #17, ncaa seed #3, final AP rank #12) ... DWest as a senior. they laid a turd against Maryland, but this team was really good.

5. 2004 (kenpom #21, sagarin #20, ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #N/A) ... despite elite 8 run, I can't rank them ahead of the 2003 team. 2004 was pretty much the same roster (minus DWest, plus Cage/Doellman).

6. 2010 (kenpom #18, sagarin #11, ncaa seed #6, final AP rank #25) ... Crawford, Holloway, Lyons, went to sweet 16

7. 2009 (kenpom #20, sagarin #19, ncaa seed #4, final AP rank #20) ... the remnants of the 2008 team (Raymond, Brown, Anderson) plus Tu Holloway as a freshman

8. 1990 (ncaa seed #6, final AP rank #25) ... best front court ever (Hill, Strong, Aaron Williams)

9. 1997 (ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #13) ... Posey, Lenny Brown, Lumpkin, Darnell Williams as sophomores. They regressed from here.

10. 2002 (kenpom #23, sagarin #20, ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #22) ... DWest as a junior, maybe the best defensive team in X history

[chico]

Not to make this about UCLA, but I went back and looked at that year just to confirm. They went 35-4, won both the Pac 10 regular season and conference tournament championships, were a number 1 seed, and went to the Final 4.

My only point is that this year's team has the chance to be better than the '08 team (which as things stand now I already think is the best team Xavier's had), and one of the reasons I feel that way is that, when we play our best game, there is nobody in the country we can't beat on their best day. I didn't feel that way about the '08 team.

[XUFan09]

Here is my top 10 with kenpom computer, sagarin computer, ncaa seed, and final AP rankings (final poll before NCAA tournament). KenPom only goes back to 2002 and Sagarin only goes back to 2000.

1. 2008 (kenpom #13, sagarin #11, ncaa seed #3, final AP rank #12) ... super deep team (Brown, Lavender, Burrell, Love, CJ Anderson, Duncan, Raymond), went to elite 8. the 2018 team may be better, but let's see what happens in March.

2. 2018 (kenpom #13, sagarin #10, projected ncaa seed #2, current AP rank #8) ... on paper, pretty close to the 2008 team

3. 2016 (kenpom #14, sagarin #13, ncaa seed #2, final AP rank #9) ... best ncaa seed ever, flamed out to Wisconsin in 2nd round

4. 2003 (kenpom #20, sagarin #17, ncaa seed #3, final AP rank #12) ... DWest as a senior. they laid a turd against Maryland, but this team was really good.

5. 2004 (kenpom #21, sagarin #20, ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #N/A) ... despite elite 8 run, I can't rank them ahead of the 2003 team. 2004 was pretty much the same roster (minus DWest, plus Cage/Doellman).

6. 2010 (kenpom #18, sagarin #11, ncaa seed #6, final AP rank #25) ... Crawford, Holloway, Lyons, went to sweet 16

7. 2009 (kenpom #20, sagarin #19, ncaa seed #4, final AP rank #20) ... the remnants of the 2008 team (Raymond, Brown, Anderson) plus Tu Holloway as a freshman

8. 1990 (ncaa seed #6, final AP rank #25) ... best front court ever (Hill, Strong, Aaron Williams)

9. 1997 (ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #13) ... Posey, Lenny Brown, Lumpkin, Darnell Williams as sophomores. They regressed from here.

10. 2002 (kenpom #23, sagarin #20, ncaa seed #7, final AP rank #22) ... DWest as a junior, maybe the best defensive team in X historyI would switch 6. and 7. That 2009 team was so friggin' good.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[GoMuskies]

Not to make this about UCLA, but I went back and looked at that year just to confirm. They went 35-4, won both the Pac 10 regular season and conference tournament championships, were a number 1 seed, and went to the Final 4.


Obviously a very good team, but they were far from unbeatable. This isn't 1991 UNLV or 1996 Kentucky we're talking about. My only point was Xavier DIDN'T have to play perfect to beat them despite the future NBA All-Stars on the team. I loved that '08 team, and it was just so disappointing to see them go out with such a terrible performance. And that's what it was. Not some sort of UCLA ultra-dominance.

[XUFan09]

Obviously a very good team, but they were far from unbeatable. This isn't 1991 UNLV or 1996 Kentucky we're talking about. My only point was Xavier DIDN'T have to play perfect to beat them despite the future NBA All-Stars on the team. I loved that '08 team, and it was just so disappointing to see them go out with such a terrible performance. And that's what it was. Not some sort of UCLA ultra-dominance.UCLA played really well against X, but that was likely partly due to X playing so poorly. For example, Kevin Love was not a good defender in college, but other than one Derrick Brown baseline dunk, they didn't really exploit that.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[xu82]

Based on the rest of UCLA's results in the Tournament that year, I beg to differ. They had a ton of talent, but that great Xavier team just played like shit that day.

I don’t remember how we played as much as I wanted to go all Tonya Harding on Kevin Love.

[xu82]

I would say unequivocally, this is by far the best Xavier team this year.

Careful! It’s dangerous way out there on that limb!!!

[chico]

Obviously a very good team, but they were far from unbeatable. This isn't 1991 UNLV or 1996 Kentucky we're talking about. My only point was Xavier DIDN'T have to play perfect to beat them despite the future NBA All-Stars on the team. I loved that '08 team, and it was just so disappointing to see them go out with such a terrible performance. And that's what it was. Not some sort of UCLA ultra-dominance.

The memory isn't what it used to be but my take away from the game was a combination of us not playing well and them having a great game. What worried me about UCLA going into that game was the amount of talent they had and the fact that they already had their close call - kind of like the Tyus Edny team when he went coast to coast at the buzzer.

But the '08 really was a great team and for me the most fun team to watch with the exception of the Posey/Williams/Brown team and the Hill/Strong/Walker teams. And Raymond's shot against WVU was the only time in my life that I've leapt out of my seat screaming.

[paulxu]

Are you your record?

Or your stat sheet.

[GIMMFD]

Sheesh 19-3 I would say things are very much alright. Lol!
I am not sure if it’s the best ever but this is an awesome team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh trust me, I'm not even remotely saying they aren't a quality team, I'm very very happy with how the season is going, but I meant it more so as playing peak basketball in March and making a deep run. Nobody cares what you do in the regular season unfortunately.

[xu82]

Oh trust me, I'm not even remotely saying they aren't a quality team, I'm very very happy with how the season is going, but I meant it more so as playing peak basketball in March and making a deep run. Nobody cares what you do in the regular season unfortunately.

PEAK IN MARCH! Amen.

Fortunately, it seems to be a Mack specialty.

[markchal]

If this team was better defensively, it would make the argument a whole lot easier.

[JTG]

Scruggs just may be the stopper this team needs in another 6 weeks.

[SemajParlor]

Scruggs just may be the stopper this team needs in another 6 weeks.

I don't mind Paul becoming our Ricky Moore. And yes, that was a 20 year old UConn reference.

[UCGRAD4X]

not today

[Emp]

I'm still drinking koolade, but there was a funny taste to it tonight.

[xu koop scoop]

As far as Best Team Ever all I care about is being the Best Team Each Game they play. Enjoy the unfolding of the season.

[webxu]

Well if they want that title, they better play much better than last night!!

[OTRMUSKIE]

How many games has x really played well this year? UC and Creighton is all I can think of.

[BMoreX]

How many games has x really played well this year? UC and Creighton is all I can think of.

Marquette

[SemajParlor]

How many games has x really played well this year? UC and Creighton is all I can think of.


They are 20-3 and their RPI is 3.

[Steve A]

Well if they want that title, they better play much better than last night!!

Man, I hate when people start only remembering the good times. EVERY team ever has bad nights, bad games, and bad losses. Heck, take just the best teams in Xavier history:

2008 - Lost at Miami, got smoked at Arizona State and at Temple, didn't even make the finals of the A-10 tournament.
2016 - Lost at home to Georgetown, didn't make the finals of the Big East tournament
2003 - Lost at home to Richmond (who ended up 15-14), needed a miracle DWest tip to beat GW at home, didn't make finals of the A-10 tournament
2004 - Lost TWICE to 12-17 Duquesne right in the middle of "The Run"
2010 - Struggled to beat Miami, got SMOKED by the Cryers at their place, lost to Richmond in the A-10 semis
2009 - Lost at 11-20 Charlotte, lost at Duquesne, lost to Temple in A-10 semis
1990 - Lost season opener to 13-15 Southern Utah, lost at 15-13 Evansville, lost MCC Finals
1997 - Lost at home to Tulane, lost at 9-18 Duquesne, lost in the A-10 quarters
2002 - Got smoked in the shootout at Cintas, lost at St. Bonaventure, struggled to beat 15-17 LaSalle

Bad games happen to every team. This year is no different.

[bobbiemcgee]

Wasn't too long ago we had the constant complaint that these guys couldn't close out games. That changed in the Elite Eight run and They sure have this year!
Has there been a better team in "crunch time".? Another 20 win season. Celebrate!

[Xavier]

That has been the best part about this team. Closing out close games I just have a sense they find a way to get it done. All the experience should help come March when closing out games. Different players have had great stretches this season, if they can all put it together in March is the question.

[XAVI3R23]

They are 20-3 and their RPI is 3.



Exactly and they have the second best record (16-7) against the spread in the entire country.

[muskiefan82]

Here is my two cents on this. How many times has Xavier been at a point where a win would solidify their position or ranking and they've lost to a team that they should beat? Last night they didn't lose and managed to win. Not convincingly, but they won. I'll take it every day of the season. Especially on the road. They had enough on a bad day on the road to win. I say hell yeah.

[letskeepitreal]

Man, I am amazed at the oddsmakers. they are damn close almost all of the time. I remember a few years ago when we were giving up leads and losing. This year, at least when we give up leads, but find ways to pull out the W. This will pay dividends in crunch time. This team has heart/character. Go X

[chico]

How many games has x really played well this year? UC and Creighton is all I can think of.


You're kidding, right? I mean this team is 20 and freaking 3, number 6 in the country, 3 in the RPI, but Einstein thinks they've only played 2 good games all year.

[MauriceX]

You're kidding, right? I mean this team is 20 and freaking 3, number 6 in the country, 3 in the RPI, but Einstein thinks they've only played 2 good games all year.

Maybe he could have chosen a different way to phrase it, but I get the sentiment. How about complete instead of good games? Obviously, Xavier has been a good team this season. But this team could be even better if they played complete games every game like they did against UC, Creighton, and Marquette. In pretty much every other game we've had periods of sloppy play with lots of turnovers and questionable shot selection complimented by below average defense. We've usually overcome them, but those periods still exist.

I think he is just trying to point out that the team can still get much better.

[chico]

Maybe he could have chosen a different way to phrase it, but I get the sentiment. How about complete instead of good games? Obviously, Xavier has been a good team this season. But this team could be even better if they played complete games every game like they did against UC, Creighton, and Marquette. In pretty much every other game we've had periods of sloppy play with lots of turnovers and questionable shot selection complimented by below average defense. We've usually overcome them, but those periods still exist.

I think he is just trying to point out that the team can still get much better.

If that's what he meant then he definitely needed a different way to phrase it.

I don't get the whole "we haven't played a complete game yet" way of thinking. I don't watch a tremendous amount of hoops outside of Xavier but I do watch a fair amount and for the most part the they don't involve teams playing "complete" games. Every game has ebbs and flows. Every team has periods of defensive lapses, sloppy offense, poor decision-making. It's simply the nature of the game. To continually harp on the fact that we have only played a couple "complete" games is having unrealistic expectations - for our team and really any other team.

[GetUp5]

20-3
#3 in the RPI
#14 SOS
12 wins by double digits
Road wins @ Wisconsin, @ Marquette, @ Seton Hall, @ St. John's
Home wins vs. UC, Baylor, Creighton, Butler, ETSU (63 RPI), Marquette
KenPom Offensive Efficiency Rank = 11
KenPon Defensive Efficiency Rank = 49 (not really "below average")

People. Love. Complaining.

#EnjoyTheRide

[UCGRAD4X]

Part of this angst (or, negativity, if you wish) comes from the "best team ever" thinking. This team has certainly achieved many positive things and we all hope, most expect them to continue to do so. Truth is: we want them to be the best team ever. However, in too many games, for many poster's/fan's liking, it has not seemed there is enough evidence in favor of the idea. What we might need to remind ourselves is; the final chapter has not yet been written. We may never clearly be able to answer this "best team ever" question, but how the entire season finally turns out will lend credence for or against the proposition, and the debate will continue.

Much of the frustration (or, negativity, if you prefer) and the desire to see this as the "best team ever," comes from not getting that Final Four and being seen as that nice little program, but one that never could really achieve anything of ultimate importance. I have seen some statistics that indicate no other team has the record Xavier has and not made the FF, and that is such a bell-weather in NCAAMBB.

WE WANT IT SOOOOO BAD, at this point, anything that implies it might not be, is disappointing (ok, negative.)

We soooooo want to move from that nice little program to a great one. Patience is difficult when you're this hungry. But patience is important and winning is all that matters (and doing it the 'right way' - whatever that means to any given individual).

I admit to being a part of that negativity, angst, frustration and impatience.

I promise to do better after an undetermined period of reflection...and drinking.

[GoMuskies]

My current "best team ever" lost at Miami (OH). Bad things happen to good teams.

[GIMMFD]

My current "best team ever" lost at Miami (OH). Bad things happen to good teams.

This. The season is a life-time, and I think a lot of us are getting caught up in the hype rather than sitting back and enjoying what this team is doing, what is it, like 5 out of the last 6 seasons we've won at least 20 games? That's incredible! We have a realistic chance to grab 30 wins this season (which is very impressive), this team is doing well for themselves, and finding ways to win games, something we haven't been so great at in the past. We have an impressive offensive bunch, and we're getting fire power from all kinds of different sources, who would have thought we'd win a game where Tre and JP shot like a combined 20% from the 3 point land in the past?? Let's take a step back and enjoy what this team is doing, and that's growing our program. I want this Final 4 just as bad as you guys, but, people are right, we're a good team, let's appreciate that fact right now, they've lived up to all of the pre-season expectations up to this point.

[paulxu]

Generally questions such as these "is this the greatest (book, movie, pizza, beer, team) ever?" are posed after the completion of the book, movie, pizza, beer, season, or whatever...so that the answer might make sense in context (compared to other books, movies, pizzas, beers, teams).

[xu koop scoop]

"Best Team Ever" taken into context, word for word, has nothing to do with Best Season Ever or Best Record Ever. Has nothing to do with finishing in Final 4 either. It is a judgement call for each of us on this forum - and fun to read each poster's opinion.

[XUFan09]

My current "best team ever" lost at Miami (OH). Bad things happen to good teams.That never happened. I don't know what you're talking about. Nope, no idea.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[GIMMFD]

"Best Team Ever" taken into context, word for word, has nothing to do with Best Season Ever or Best Record Ever. Has nothing to do with finishing in Final 4 either. It is a judgement call for each of us on this forum - and fun to read each poster's opinion.

I disagree, I think you need to have a comparison, and accolades do matter. How can it be the best team ever if the awards say otherwise, it's a double edged blade of course, I surely don't believe Trent Dilfer is one of the best QBs ever because he won a Super Bowl, but in order to be the best team ever, you have to have the results and chemistry to show "we have a real claim to this."

[mid major]

There should be an addendum to this statement. How about: If we're knocked out by a 7th/10th seed in our 2nd game is this still our best team ever. This is vague and inconclusive as some would say our 1990 team had 3 guys who played multiple years in the NBA. Our 2014 team had excellent players 2 of whom played on the best European clubs or even our 2016 team was loaded with talent. I was so wishing Pitt would've beaten WIS. Both teams played a forgettable game and I knew WIS wasn't going to play two crummy games in a row. It remains open for debate.

[xu koop scoop]

There should be an addendum to this statement. How about: If we're knocked out by a 7th/10th seed in our 2nd game is this still our best team ever. This is vague and inconclusive as some would say our 1990 team had 3 guys who played multiple years in the NBA. Our 2014 team had excellent players 2 of whom played on the best European clubs or even our 2016 team was loaded with talent. I was so wishing Pitt would've beaten WIS. Both teams played a forgettable game and I knew WIS wasn't going to play two crummy games in a row. It remains open for debate.
I
That 1990 team with 3 NBA guys is my Favorite Team Ever & we beat GTown with their Twin Towers for 1st Sweet 16. I hope that we get to Final 4 this year, which would probably get me to call this Best Team Ever. Still savoring one game at a time for this years team.

[American X]

My opinion is moving toward a resounding YES.

We are on the precipice of making history.

[JTG]

This is definitely the luckiest Xavier team in my 50 yrs as a fan. All the calls and shots that used to go the other way, have gone our way this season. Destiny, I sure hope so.

[markchal]

My opinion is moving toward a resounding YES.

We are on the precipice of making history.

we are getting closer to best regular season, but we need to finish the job in March to get there. E8 minimum to be best ever.

[letskeepitreal]

This is definitely the luckiest Xavier team in my 50 yrs as a fan. All the calls and shots that used to go the other way, have gone our way this season. Destiny, I sure hope so.

I don’t think that this is all luck. There’s something about the mental toughness of this team. There’s just no panic in them. Are they the most talented? I don’t think so but their mental toughness may make the the best. Ask me in 6 weeks.

[GoMuskies]

KenPom has us the third luckiest team in the country. I'm not exactly sure how he defines luck, but I think it's something along the lines of shit he can't figure out about why teams win or lose close games.

[X Factor]

I don’t think that this is all luck. There’s something about the mental toughness of this team. There’s just no panic in them. Are they the most talented? I don’t think so but their mental toughness may make the the best. Ask me in 6 weeks.

Yeah, even Saturday, I never had a feeling that X was going to lose. At Butler, X got down 6 points with under 8 to go, all of the momentum was with Butler, but I was really calm sitting on my couch watching the last 7 minutes unfold. When it went into OT, I just had a feeling X would make the plays needed to get out of their with a win. Never really had that feeling with previous X teams.

This just might be the best X team ever. They have an all-time great in Trevon, one of the better frontcourts X has had in quite a while (better than Farr and Reynolds). They have so many weapons and they make their FT's, especially when the game is on the line.

[GIMMFD]

KenPom has us the third luckiest team in the country. I'm not exactly sure how he defines luck, but I think it's something along the lines of shit he can't figure out about why teams win or lose close games.

I mean it makes sense to me, but I agree with these guys, it's not luck, it's mental fortitude. Look at our seniors, JP "big balls" Macura, and Trevon "silent assassin" Blueitt. Those guys have the mental capacity to will us to wins, and that rubs off on the rest of the team. They're calm, cool, and collected in the final few minutes, you can see it in their eyes. I don't give a damn what luck says, I'll take us in a close game, we have experience, and the guys to shine.

[X-ceptional]

kenpom's description of "luck":

The easiest one to understand is Luck, which is the deviation in winning percentage between a team’s actual record and their expected record using the correlated gaussian method. The luck factor has nothing to do with the rating calculation, but a team that is very lucky (positive numbers) will tend to be rated lower by my system than their record would suggest.

But even that I feel like isn't quite explicit enough. Basically, it is a measurement of where his metrics fall short, so while I do like what he does most of the time, it seems disingenuous to call it "luck" simply because games don't always fall the way his metrics predict they should. Another guy with his own predictive metric (Bart Torvik) names this "thing" F.U.N. ("Factors Unexplained by Numbers"). Although Torvik recognizes that it can also be known as luck, I think the way he describes it is great. His explanatory blog post, which I think is worth a read is available here: http://adamcwisports.blogspot.com/search/label/FUN

Specifically, it's worth noting this:

I'm avoiding the word "luck" here for a reason. If I call it luck, that implies that the T-Rank is a rather absolute reflection of a team's quality, and that any deviation from T-Rank's expected winning percentage is simply random variance, or luck.

Undoubtedly, that is a big part of the story. But it's probably not the whole story.

If outsiders want to say we're just "lucky", go for it... but maybe it has something to do with the multiple seniors we have playing at a high level, including a 2000+ pt scorer that has shown up in crunch time over and over and over... or maybe its the fact that our point guard shoots great from the FT line at all times, but shoots X-ceptionally in the last two minutes of games... or maybe it's because we have a coach that has shown when it comes down to needing just that ONE play, he seems to be able to pull something out of his back pocket more often than not.

Maybe it's that, or maybe it's just luck.

[IM4X]

kenpom's description of "luck":

If outsiders want to say we're just "lucky", go for it... but maybe it has something to do with the multiple seniors we have playing at a high level, including a 2000+ pt scorer that has shown up in crunch time over and over and over... or maybe its the fact that our point guard shoots great from the FT line at all times, but shoots X-ceptionally in the last two minutes of games... or maybe it's because we have a coach that has shown when it comes down to needing just that ONE play, he seems to be able to pull something out of his back pocket more often than not.

Maybe it's that, or maybe it's just luck.

Yes... and I'd add that we have a couple of freshmen who have proven themselves talented enough and fearless enough to step it up and deliver when it is needed.

All these things seem to make this team more capable of winning close games than almost any X team I can remember.

My one nagging concern is that this team will show how good they are and then loses focus in game and get away from what is working so well for stretches. They will suddenly get sloppy with the ball and have a number of consecutive possession where they just make really bad decision after bad decision. - allowing a nice lead to be squandered.

Yesterday's game against Creighton was a great example. While X did a terrific job pulling out the win, the game really never should have been that close. X built a 10 point lead at one point- playing smart and working it inside out. Then they started making some bad decisions (including some quick long 3s) allowing Creighton to cut into the lead and continue on a run until they tied it back up. Part of that was on Mack for not calling an earlier time out and part of it is on players trying to do unnecessary things that hurt the team.

I bring it up to point out that this is a team that can be very, very good when they continue to play smart- but it is also a team who seems to be its own worst enemy at times- allowing teams to stick around and get back into games by getting away from what is working.

Still, I am very impressed and proud of these guys for bringing such confidence and a will to win at the end of games.

[XUFan09]

I always just treated "Luck Rating" as a cutesy term for a number of extraneous factors. I mean, there's no perfect short name for it, though I do like the acronym F.U.N. That's pretty clever.

I agree that this team's handling of leads bothers me. Xavier could have put Creighton away so that foul call didn't need to be made at the end (not to mention that Q could have lost the ball in the rush down the court). Reduce risk; blow them out.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[waggy]

I look at the luck rating simply as an indication X has beaten their opponents soundly enough.