FBI has arrested several NCAA asst. basketball coaches in a corruption scheme.

[waggy]

I saw a comment somewhere that the FBI is now investigating the NCAA itself. Anyone see this anywhere?

[Xville]

There's quite a bit of cash fines involved, too, I believe (including giving back NCAA unit money). That's more important than normal for Louisville, because the backlash to getting rid of Pitino and Jurich from fans/donors has left Louisville much less flush with cash than normal.

True...i think the penalty is justified but the ncaa definitely picks and chooses who to target and punish. Can't tell me that Duke, unc, Kansas and kentucky are running clean programs

[Nigel Tufnel]

Went to Louisville's message board to read about the sanctions and found this little gem....

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/Board/103990/Contents/Chris-Mack-and-Vince-Tyra-115325624

[Cheesehead]

Went to Louisville's message board to read about the sanctions and found this little gem....

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/Board/103990/Contents/Chris-Mack-and-Vince-Tyra-115325624

wouldn't this be tampering and just add to their violations?

[chico]

Went to Louisville's message board to read about the sanctions and found this little gem....

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/Board/103990/Contents/Chris-Mack-and-Vince-Tyra-115325624

It looks like the same guy started a thread saying Jay Wright could be lured there. Priceless.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Went to Louisville's message board to read about the sanctions and found this little gem....

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/Board/103990/Contents/Chris-Mack-and-Vince-Tyra-115325624

My personal favorite: “it will be nice to see strong offensive basketball again. I think his defense will improve with better athletes. Lower level schools rarely have the horses to play good switching defense.”

So were we a lower level school when we beat your ass by double digits in the 2004 NCAA Tournament?

[paulxu]

So...essentially Louisville just paid for UNC's decade long pissing on the ACC and the NCAA.

Never quite thought of the Cards as Cleveland State, but I guess they are today.

[Xville]

So...essentially Louisville just paid for UNC's decade long pissing on the ACC and the NCAA.

Never quite thought of the Cards as Cleveland State, but I guess they are today.

Yep...notre dame and Louisville get pissed on while Miami and unc basically get off Scott free for decades of improprieties. Not saying what Louisville nor Notre dame did was right, but the pick and choose nature is ridiculous. I wish the ncaa governing body would be completely destroyed and start over. Maybe that will happen with what the supposed fallout of the fbi investigation is supposed to be.

[XUGRAD80]

My only wish is that UK is found guilty of so much stuff that they give Louisville the death penalty.

[muskiefan82]

My only wish is that UK is found guilty of so much stuff that they give Louisville the death penalty.

I would love it if somehow, some way, Coach K was implicated in something sketchy. That would be so much better than anything happening to UK IMHO.

It would be great to find out American Express funneled money or provided extremely low or no interest rate credit cards to players in exchange for Coach K agreeing to do their commercials. That would really make my day.

[xudash]

That's funny.

[Cheesehead]

I wonder how the NCAA is going to vacate Pitino's national championship tattoo he got.

[muskiefan82]

If the recruits who received the free sex pay the "escorts" for their time, can they have their eligibility restored and get the banner back?

[XUGRAD80]

If they had made these “extra” benefits available to all students it wouldn’t have been a violation.

How crazy is that?

LOL

[xu82]

If they had made these “extra” benefits available to all students it wouldn’t have been a violation.

How crazy is that?

LOL

I’m sure that would lead to far more applications!

[Xville]

I’m sure that would lead to far more applications!

I doubt it...have you seen Katina Powell? There is a reason why Louisville didn't get the recruits they were trying to get thru these "parties."

[muskiefan82]

I doubt it...have you seen Katina Powell? There is a reason why Louisville didn't get the recruits they were trying to get thru these "parties."

They couldn't afford anything better. They weren't on the Adidas financing plan yet.

[STL_XUfan]

I wonder how the NCAA is going to vacate Pitino's national championship tattoo he got.

Have you seen Sons of Anarchy?

[XUBison]

I doubt it...have you seen Katina Powell? There is a reason why Louisville didn't get the recruits they were trying to get thru these "parties."


Anyone remember HBO’s Hookers On The Point?

[GetUp5]

The Cincinnati Enquirer just pulled a Cincinnati Enquirer and reported via tweet, 5 months late, that Sumner and Semaj were clients of ASM. The media drives me nucking futs. They tweet this trash like it's news and like Ed and Semaj have been implicated in the whole thing.

I won't be naive though and say I sure hope those ties and ties with Book don't come back to haunt us. I trust the program, though. Would be shocked if we were involved in this at all.

[drudy23]

There's obviously a connection...let's just hope the shenanigans happened after both hired an agent vs. buying influence for them to come to X.

[XUFan09]

There's obviously a connection...let's just hope the shenanigans happened after both hired an agent vs. buying influence for them to come to X.I mean, it was the third agent for Semaj since going pro, so it's safe to say there's nothing going on there. And Ed was a lightly recruited three star, so I'm skeptical that he was influenced.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[GetUp5]

Was just going to say.. Sumner was a 3 star recruit - I doubt there were any bags of money going around during that recruitment.

[Cheesehead]

Have you seen Sons of Anarchy?

Ouch! yes.

[drudy23]

How many 5 star recruits have landed at X? Maybe 1 (Semaj - and he was local)? Were there others?

It's pretty obvious we weren't bidding on the 5 star guys.

[paulxu]

I'm going to assume since Adidas did it, so did Nike.
But at least on the first pass, it looks like Adidas schools involved; so maybe X is OK being Nike.

What is the responsibility of a school who has no involvement? Say Adidas contacted a kid, paid him to go to a school (that they supply) and onward to a certain agent...and the school or none of its people are involved? Maybe that's being naive about how it all works.

[Lloyd Braun]

There's obviously a connection...let's just hope the shenanigans happened after both hired an agent vs. buying influence for them to come to X.

Somewhere in the middle apparently is the reality.

[Xville]

Somewhere in the middle apparently is the reality.

Yep which means x was playing an ineligible player, unless this occurred when Sumner was injured his last year. That's a probem, whether mack knew about it or not. How much of a problem, remains to be seen.

[AviatorX]

Yep which means x was playing an ineligible player, unless this occurred when Sumner was injured his last year. That's a probem, whether mack knew about it or not. How much of a problem, remains to be seen.

Payments were at the end of the 15/16 season, allegedly. So if X was playing an ineligible player, it would be the end of that season/beginning of 16/17. Obviously Ed didn't play down the Elite 8 stretch.

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/fbi-files-new-charges-against-kansas-nc-state-in-college-basketball-fraud-scandal/ar-AAvJo5T?ocid=spartanntp

[XUGRAD80]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/fbi-files-new-charges-against-kansas-nc-state-in-college-basketball-fraud-scandal/ar-AAvJo5T?ocid=spartanntp

Yep...add Kansas and NC State to the list. Who wants to bet that there won’t be more added in the future?

[MADXSTER]

I think this last episode will be the NCAA agreeing with the schools in that this was outside the schools realm of compliance. Thus nothing will come of it. Just watch.

[bleedXblue]

I think this last episode will be the NCAA agreeing with the schools in that this was outside the schools realm of compliance. Thus nothing will come of it. Just watch.

It will be as it always is.....what can you prove? If they (NCAA/FBI) have proof the schools (any representative of) knew of the payments, there will be consequences for those institutions.

[GIMMFD]

Yep...add Kansas and NC State to the list. Who wants to bet that there won’t be more added in the future?

More adidas schools, not even remotely surprised about Kansas, I was honestly waiting for this to drop earlier once the whole ordeal came out, I just think it's annoying their releasing things piece by piece, really leaves a lot of people in limbo. It would suck being a recruit doing the whole process clean and the right way just to figure out that the school you committed to ended up committing a crime, sure you get a release, but it sucks if you already committed as they were your first choice.

[paulxu]

And Adidas just stole Washington from Nike.

[bobbiemcgee]

And Adidas just stole Washington from Nike.

With big bags of cash dropping everywhere, I would say more than likely bribery. Since you can apparently order pizza now by pressing a button on your shoe, I think Adidas will come out with a new brand called the "5 Star" where recruits can order up a bag o' cash.

[GoMuskies]

Louisville is pulling DePaul into their drama in a pretty embarrassing way. Essentially, they're saying Brian Bowen would rather take $100k and play for Louisville than take $200k and play for the Blue Demons. Ouch.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24265763/court-documents-say-rick-pitino-misled-louisville

[xu82]

Louisville is pulling DePaul into their drama in a pretty embarrassing way. Essentially, they're saying Brian Bowen would rather take $100k and play for Louisville than take $200k and play for the Blue Demons. Ouch.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24265763/court-documents-say-rick-pitino-misled-louisville

What a bargain! I wonder if they had an Addidas coupon, or some kind of a Groupon? Not sure how that works, but they should be so proud! And so banished!

[xavierj]

Louisville is pulling DePaul into their drama in a pretty embarrassing way. Essentially, they're saying Brian Bowen would rather take $100k and play for Louisville than take $200k and play for the Blue Demons. Ouch.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24265763/court-documents-say-rick-pitino-misled-louisville

Rick Carter? He left last June unexpectedly right before all this shit hit the fan.

[XU 87]

Rick Carter? He left last June unexpectedly right before all this shit hit the fan.

I thought he left because he had some business that he was running. At least that was the reason given.

[Xville]

If you needed any more proof that Jay Bilas and especially Dick Vitale are complete d-bags that will for some reason defend Pitino until the end, here you go:

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2018/08/26/jay-bilas-dick-vitale-applaud-rick-pitinos-new-book/1107909002/

Vitale is a complete f'ing moron that somehow forgot the fact that Pitino was involved in not one but three scandals while at Louisville. "Get the truth" ....sure Dickie V from the compulsive liar that is Rick Pitino.

The truth is that Rick Pitino is a compulsive liar who is trying to manipulate the public into believing that he is just a poor innocent victim of circumstance.

[paulxu]

This is a novel defense....


The defendants all have pleaded not guilty. Their attorneys are expected to admit in court that their clients broke NCAA rules -- a lot of them. But they're expected to argue that while paying players to attend certain universities is one of the NCAA's greatest sins, it isn't a federal crime. They contend that the defendants never intended to harm the universities, but to actually help them by steering five-star players to certain teams.

Sort of like UNC. We broke the rules, lots of rules. But we were helping the university. So there. Nah, nah, ne-nah, nah....

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24813412/what-watch-college-hoops-biggest-scandal-goes-trial

[XUGRAD80]

It’s going to be difficult for the feds to prove that the universities involved have actually suffered some kind of injury. Be prepared for the defense to bring out attendance figures and TV money earned by the schools as a result of their lofty rankings and on-court success. Since the NCAA has yet to put penalties on these schools, they can only talk about potential penalties that they might face in the future and not actual damages already incurred.

In the meantime....nothing has changed. Cheaters are still cheating.

[paulxu]

What a mess. Glad I don't see any mention of Xavier in it.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24823682/why-ncaa-hoops-scandal-likely-spread-trial-starts

[Xville]

What a mess. Glad I don't see any mention of Xavier in it.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24823682/why-ncaa-hoops-scandal-likely-spread-trial-starts

Meh. Until something actually happens, it is much to do about nothing. The media keeps stating that this is going to shake the core of college athletics blah blah blah for quite a while now and nothing has happened except Louisville let Pitino go because he ran out of chances.

In other words, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Masterofreality]

Bowens' Father testified today.

Among other schools, he implicated...wait for it...CREIGHTON! He said that one of the assistants offered $100,000 plus a cushy University coaching job if BBowen went there.

Wow.

[GIMMFD]

Bowens' Father testified today.

Among other schools, he implicated...wait for it...CREIGHTON! He said that one of the assistants offered $100,000 plus a cushy University coaching job if BBowen went there.

Wow.

Yeah I saw Creighton and DePaul on the list, and I was like what the hell??? Especially Creighton, McDermott seems like a stand up guy, I wonder how much he knew about it, but who knows I guess.

[Xville]

Yeah I saw Creighton and DePaul on the list, and I was like what the hell??? Especially Creighton, McDermott seems like a stand up guy, I wonder how much he knew about it, but who knows I guess.

Probably as much as Pitino. Let's be honest most of these guys are complete scumbags....I'm not saying this kind of stuff happens at xavier, but would anyone really be that surprised??

[paulxu]

Maybe in a way there is some good in not being able to recruit 5 star players (not that we should stop trying. I'd love to get some)

But reading stuff about the FBI investigation/trial, it's almost like you have to break rules and pay money to recruits/families which the shoe companies will gladly pony up, just to get a kid to come. That's crazy.

I hope absolutely no one on our campus knew about the Sumner "loan" to him or his dad.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Maybe in a way there is some good in not being able to recruit 5 star players (not that we should stop trying. I'd love to get some)

But reading stuff about the FBI investigation/trial, it's almost like you have to break rules and pay money to recruits/families which the shoe companies will gladly pony up, just to get a kid to come. That's crazy.

I hope absolutely no one on our campus knew about the Sumner "loan" to him or his dad.

It was 7500 if true, the veracity of Dawkins raises concerns whether he just pocketed that cash to live the life. I know Kansas people aren't certain that De'Sousa received the $20k that is being testified. I am not sure either, however, Sumner did sign with that agent.

Creighton being named is an absolute shocker. If it's true, then there can't be a team in the top 100 that hasn't offered similar including Mack and us. If there was a cushier job to have it is that one for McDermott. The guy can poach fringe talent, get a transfer, and be successful 1-2 times every four years as long as he doesn't lay an egg the off years. All that and he is a solid coach.

[XUMIOH12]

Maybe in a way there is some good in not being able to recruit 5 star players (not that we should stop trying. I'd love to get some)

But reading stuff about the FBI investigation/trial, it's almost like you have to break rules and pay money to recruits/families which the shoe companies will gladly pony up, just to get a kid to come. That's crazy.

I hope absolutely no one on our campus knew about the Sumner "loan" to him or his dad.

The Sumner loan was post-draft

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The Sumner loan was post-draft

I thought it wasn't, I thought it was the year he played and we beat 'Nova. You know the only time.

[sirthought]

If there was a cushier job to have it is that one for McDermott. The guy can poach fringe talent, get a transfer, and be successful 1-2 times every four years as long as he doesn't lay an egg the off years. All that and he is a solid coach.

Isn't that true for most DI coaches?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Don’t disagree with that, I spoke with my friend from Jersey who knows how this works and he said he would be shocked if they had any head coach on tape. It just didn’t work like that.

I guess this trial will play itself out and we will see how it all really works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/basketball-players-father-louisville-assistant-gave-cash/ar-BBO9Jcv?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1

[XU 87]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/basketball-players-father-louisville-assistant-gave-cash/ar-BBO9Jcv?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[xu82]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/basketball-players-father-louisville-assistant-gave-cash/ar-BBO9Jcv?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1

The $1,300 was an insult! They players they “DON’T pay” get far more, and he knew the market!

[bobbiemcgee]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24990651/texts-show-kansas-coaches-knew-adidas-role-silvio-de-sousa-recruitment

[XUGRAD80]

The more people talk, the wider this seems to go. First I’ve heard of any Maryland involvement. But it doesn’t surprise me when anyone is implicated. I only wonder what, if anything, that the NCAA will end up doing.

[Lamont Sanford]

Will Teflon Coach K and the Dukies face any stiff questioning over Zion Willamson either??? I highly doubt it.

[Xville]

Will Teflon Coach K and the Dukies face any stiff questioning over Zion Willamson either??? I highly doubt it.

Hell no...the ncaa has to keep their cash cow protected and the facade that there is a model of a school that does "things the right way."

[bobbiemcgee]

I was wondering how they could play this guy after paying him. Guess they don't want to forfeit the games he plays:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/kansas-to-hold-de-sousa-out-pending-investigation/ar-BBOPSPq?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1

[paulxu]

Maybe they should suspend Self also, as there are text messages indicating he know about the payment.

[X-band '01]

https://sports.yahoo.com/feds-give-ncaa-go-ahead-begin-investigating-certain-schools-tied-college-hoops-scandal-030502043.html

Looks like the feds are about to give the NCAA the green light to officially start investigating schools like Louisville and Kansas.

[XUGRAD80]

https://sports.yahoo.com/feds-give-ncaa-go-ahead-begin-investigating-certain-schools-tied-college-hoops-scandal-030502043.html

Looks like the feds are about to give the NCAA the green light to officially start investigating schools like Louisville and Kansas.

We, of course, don’t know how this all going to play out in the end, but.....

A key point is that the feds have powers that the NCAA do not. They can investigate people that the NCAA can not force to either testify or answer questions. People not under NCAA control. But the NCAA can use all of the information that the feds came up with, including reams of information that wasn’t used in the trials because it didn’t bolster the feds legal case, but may show that NCAA rules were broken.

[X-band '01]

We, of course, don’t know how this all going to play out in the end, but.....

A key point is that the feds have powers that the NCAA do not. They can investigate people that the NCAA can not force to either testify or answer questions. People not under NCAA control. But the NCAA can use all of the information that the feds came up with, including reams of information that wasn’t used in the trials because it didn’t bolster the feds legal case, but may show that NCAA rules were broken.

The NCAA can't go solely by what the Feds unearthed - they tried to use the Freeh Report to slam Penn State with football sanctions before many of those penalties were overturned.

[XUGRAD80]

The NCAA can't go solely by what the Feds unearthed - they tried to use the Freeh Report to slam Penn State with football sanctions before many of those penalties were overturned.

Point isn’t that they will rely on the feds information entirely, it’s that the feds can get additional information that the NCAA couldn’t get on their own.

[paulxu]

What the hell Sumner.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25210341/ncaa-gets-approval-investigate-schools-college-basketball-corruption-case

[cheeba]

What the hell Sumner.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25210341/ncaa-gets-approval-investigate-schools-college-basketball-corruption-case


And Blueitt and former walk on Mitchell

[muskiefan82]

So, if Mack knew (I doubt it), then Louisville really messed up!!!

[drudy23]

So even if we made the Final Four last year, it would have been vacated. Blueitt was taking payments his whole senior season? Whether the coach knew or not, that's an ineligible player, right?

[muskiefan82]

Yes. He would have been ineligible. I can see him entering this agreement on his own without the school being involved. If Jacob Evans from uc and blueitt were ineligible, did the shootout happen?

[xu82]

Yes. He would have been ineligible. I can see him entering this agreement on his own without the school being involved. If Jacob Evans from uc and blueitt were ineligible, did the shootout happen?

No. A tree would fall on them in the forest.

[WestToBest]

Let's pump the brakes a little bit here and take a deep breath. Nowhere in that article does it mention that any of the payments actually went through. The only thing that is mentioned in that article is the PLAN Dawkins had for payment. He essentially outlined what he was seeking to do, but there is no evidence anything actually was transferred. Is it a bummer Xavier's name is mentioned several times? Of course. However, there are no specific violations mentioned in this article; if anything, it details how little the players and coaches actually knew.

[Xville]

Although at this point it is just alleged, that's why I get pissed with the holier than though people on here that believe xavier players would never get involved in such a thing. I bet this stuff occurs or occurred at every major p5 program a d tur big east.

[kellernr]

Let's pump the brakes a little bit here and take a deep breath. Nowhere in that article does it mention that any of the payments actually went through. The only thing that is mentioned in that article is the PLAN Dawkins had for payment. He essentially outlined what he was seeking to do, but there is no evidence anything actually was transferred. Is it a bummer Xavier's name is mentioned several times? Of course. However, there are no specific violations mentioned in this article; if anything, it details how little the players and coaches actually knew.That's what I told my buddy when he sent me the link. These are all proposed payments. No where did it say the transactions occurred

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[XUGRAD80]

There are several paths that this can go on from here. Most of them are scary. So far all we have are allegations and plans. I am primarily an innocent until proven guilty type of person, but the more I see Xavier and it’s players names coming up in these stories, the more worried I am getting. I’m certainly not blind to the temptation that money like that mentioned means to a college student, especially when they think that everyone else is getting it and that there is no way that they will get caught, but I certainly hope that none of the players or coaches were actually involved in anything. However, I would no longer be shocked if it turns out they were. Disappointed for sure. Possibly angry. But not shocked. That in itself is a sad commentary, no?

[paulxu]

Well, it makes me sad for sure. Our players go through a lot of training to guard against this stuff, including the freshmen clinic deal held by the BE.
I don't see Duke or UNC in that article, and maybe the focus was more on the not one-and-done type players.

I so enjoyed watching Bluiett and Sumner play for our school. This just sucks on a lot of levels.

[STL_XUfan]

My hope is that if Bluiett took money that he got a lot more than $700.00/month. Seems way too low for the possible consequences for both him and his alma mater.

[drudy23]

For what it's worth, it bothers me zero if he got paid.

The system is corrupt and the last person I'd fault is the player.

[D-West & PO-Z]

For what it's worth, it bothers me zero if he got paid.

The system is corrupt and the last person I'd fault is the player.

Agreed.

I dont want Xavier being complicit, but the only time it might bother me if they got paid is if it is found out while still here.

Check out Dan Wetzel's article on Bill Self.

There is so much evidence that was presented that he knew about Silvio De Sousa's guardian getting payments and little evidence that Silvio De Sousa himself even knew about the payments to his guardian. So De Sousa is suspended indefinitely while Self continues to coach.

Again the NCAA cares zilch about their student athletes. They are always the only ones held to any consequences.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Also there isnt even any proof that any of the players listed even knew of this dudes plans involving them. Just because he had them targeted doesnt mean there was ever even any contact.

[Xville]

Also there isnt even any proof that any of the players listed even knew of this dudes plans involving them. Just because he had them targeted doesnt mean there was ever even any contact.

For the most part I agree, except on sumner. I'm pretty sure sumner got paid, the only question in my mind, is when. Reason I feel that way is sumner's walk on roommate was mentioned...I mean why else would that person even be mentioned unless Dawkins and sumner had some type of relationship?

Now with that said, there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence, so unless there is more such as tapes or transactions that can be accounted for, none of these schools are getting into trouble.

[D-West & PO-Z]

For the most part I agree, except on sumner. I'm pretty sure sumner got paid, the only question in my mind, is when. Reason I feel that way is sumner's walk on roommate was mentioned...I mean why else would that person even be mentioned unless Dawkins and sumner had some type of relationship?

Now with that said, there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence, so unless there is more such as tapes or transactions that can be accounted for, none of these schools are getting into trouble.

Yeah Sumner has been tied to this for a while. I agree.

[MITTENMUSKIE16]

1. That list is rather large, and I don't know how Dawkins, with a fledgling agency in its infancy, would have paid all these players the monthly payments contemplated.

2. Also, I think the article mentions that the emails that discussed the proposed plan of payment was dated in late August or early September. Dawkins was arrested on September 26th of the same year. So that timeline of events makes me think this plan (the one involving Tre, not Ed) probably didn't end up coming to fruition.

[MHettel]

For the most part I agree, except on sumner. I'm pretty sure sumner got paid, the only question in my mind, is when. Reason I feel that way is sumner's walk on roommate was mentioned...I mean why else would that person even be mentioned unless Dawkins and sumner had some type of relationship?

Now with that said, there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence, so unless there is more such as tapes or transactions that can be accounted for, none of these schools are getting into trouble.

Sumner was already gone at the time this presentation / proposal was given (I'm pretty sure). there woudl be absolutely nothing wrong with the arrangement Dawkins had with Sumner. And, can we exclude teh possibility that Sumner said he'd go along with it ONLY if his roomate was hired on as part of the team? Kind of a condition to the arrangement.

I'm a little worried, but not that much. I think its a much bigger deal if the coaches were in on it, or knew anything about it.

[paulxu]

I think the article said the "plans" to pay Sumner and others were to start in September 2017.

He was already drafted at that point.

[XUMIOH12]

The Sumner loan was post-draft


I think the article said the "plans" to pay Sumner and others were to start in September 2017.

He was already drafted at that point.

Yeah I think the Sumner stuff has been known as being post-draft for a while; he just happens to be grouped on the same list as the others.

[GoMuskies]

The NCAA is so pissed at Louisville, Kentucky, Arizona and Kansas that they placed BYU on probation today.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/11/09/ncaa-comes-down-byu-over/

[noteggs]

The NCAA is so pissed at Louisville, Kentucky, Arizona and Kansas that they placed BYU on probation today.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/11/09/ncaa-comes-down-byu-over/

Lol. Harsh penalty for $12,000 dollars which was used for vacations.

[muskiefan82]

The NCAA is so pissed at Louisville, Kentucky, Arizona and Kansas that they placed BYU on probation today.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/11/09/ncaa-comes-down-byu-over/

But they were so much fun to watch!!!

[xu82]

The NCAA is so pissed at Louisville, Kentucky, Arizona and Kansas that they placed BYU on probation today.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/11/09/ncaa-comes-down-byu-over/

This is serious stuff, not just strippers, hookers and $100k in cash. This guy went to an amusement park!!!

Isn’t THAT a fitting violation for a BYU player!

[sirthought]

Wow. The thing that gets me is the booster is a guy like so many fans at any other school. They donate to the school in order to get good seats, he happens to meet the player and they strike up a friendship. I bet the player didn't pay for everything, but this just seems silly compared to the Adidas/Agents trying to slide players' families money to establish relationships.

[Xville]

So they vacated some wins in which they maybe went to the tournament, and put on probation and lose a scholly...who cares. Unless the probation includes not being able to go to the postseason, that's not really a penalty

[X-band '01]

It was the last 2 years, so all they're vacating are NIT appearances at best.

Technically, this means that the only loss Gonzaga had in 2016-17 was their national championship loss to North Carolina now.

[Xville]

It was the last 2 years, so all they're vacating are NIT appearances at best.

Technically, this means that the only loss Gonzaga had in 2016-17 was their national championship loss to North Carolina now.

So in other words, who cares...this is barely news. The funniest part about this is byu complaining about it being "too harsh of a penalty"

[X-band '01]

BYU did self-report to an extent; their self-imposed penalties included the loss of 1 scholarship and a $5,000 fine.

What they're contesting is the 47 vacated wins.

[paulxu]

Glad to see no mention of Xavier here:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/former-arizona-assistant-emanuel-book-richardson-agrees-to-plea-deal-in-college-basketball-fraud-case/

[XUGRAD80]

Book Richardson has taken a plea deal and pleaded guilty to one count of federal funds bribery. Faces up to 2 years of jail time, but expected to get much less. By doing this he will not face further trial and thus Sean Miller and Arizona can rest a little easier.

[muskiefan82]

What were the conditions of the plea? Did he have to provide information they can use for other prosecutions?

[XUGRAD80]

What were the conditions of the plea? Did he have to provide information they can use for other prosecutions?

Report didn’t say. Only said that he wouldn’t have to testify in court and therefore no more info on Miller and Zona would be coming out in open court.

[Juice]

What were the conditions of the plea? Did he have to provide information they can use for other prosecutions?

I read somewhere that no he did not have to.

[X-band '01]

[URL="https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-arizonas-sean-miller-lsus-will-wade-notified-will-subpoenaed-federal-hoops-corruption-trial-180149786.html"Yahoo Sports: Arizona's Sean Miller and LSU's Will Wade Notified They Will Be Subpoenaed in Federal Hoops Corruption Trial[/URL]

Mark your calendars for April 22.

[Xavgrad08]

This will be fascinating to watch. I was wondering how LSU got good so fast.

[paulxu]

Book Richardson has taken a plea deal and pleaded guilty to one count of federal funds bribery. Faces up to 2 years of jail time, but expected to get much less. By doing this he will not face further trial and thus Sean Miller and Arizona can rest a little easier.


[URL="https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-arizonas-sean-miller-lsus-will-wade-notified-will-subpoenaed-federal-hoops-corruption-trial-180149786.html"Yahoo Sports: Arizona's Sean Miller and LSU's Will Wade Notified They Will Be Subpoenaed in Federal Hoops Corruption Trial[/URL]

One of these things is not like the other.

[XUGRAD80]

One of these things is not like the other.

When I made the first post there was no indication that Miller would be subpoenaed. The thought was that avoiding a trial would keep Miller from being implicated in any wrongdoing by any testimony made in open court. It will be interesting to see if he sticks to his story or changes it under threat of perjury.

[XU 87]

Book is going to jail. Another UA coach is fired for academic fraud issues. NCAA (or is it the FBI?) is looking at a third but former assistant coach from ‘Zona.

UA kinda sucks this year.

How does Miller survive this?

[scoscox]

How does Miller survive this?

unless he's indicted, this is how he survives thishttps://247sports.com/college/arizona/Season/2019-Basketball/Commits/

[waggy]

Some interesting parts in Yahoo and ESPN reports:



Arizona officials have denied multiple open-records requests from ESPN for any subpoenas the university received from the federal government for information and grand jury testimony related to the investigation. They also have declined to provide Miller's cellphone records and his correspondence with university officials. They repeatedly cited "the balancing test established by the Arizona courts to protect the best interests of the state" in their refusal to release the records.




Arizona has been closely monitoring and investigating Miller’s situation. The school has spent more than $1 million in legal fees on the case and the Arizona Board of Regents has met multiple times in executive session about the future of the program. The latest meeting came in early February in closed session for “legal advice and discussion regarding University of Arizona Men’s Basketball.”

[rosaliecea]

this one needs some popcorn. just sit back and wait what will happen next. :D :D :D

[bobbiemcgee]

Gatto, Code and Dawkins all going to jail. Wonder who is next?

[XUBison]

LSU suspended HC Will Wade indefinitely.

[noteggs]

That wired conversation between Dawkins and Wade about Smart is messed up.

[muskiefan82]

It makes me wonder what the alleged conversation that was tapped with Miller says

[X-band '01]

Earlier today around 11 AM, Michael Avenatti went on Twitter and threatened to pull down the curtain on Nike.

In less than an hour, he has been charged by the Southern District of New York with attempted extortion to the tune of 20 million.

And if that weren't enough, he's also facing an indictment in California on SEPARATE charges of embezzlement.

[GoMuskies]

Earlier today around 11 AM, Michael Avenatti went on Twitter and threatened to pull down the curtain on Nike.

In less than an hour, he has been charged by the Southern District of New York with attempted extortion to the tune of 20 million.

And if that weren't enough, he's also facing an indictment in California on SEPARATE charges of embezzlement.

Sounds like he's trying to burnish his bona fides ahead of the 2020 Presidential election.

[xubrew]

Earlier today around 11 AM, Michael Avenatti went on Twitter and threatened to pull down the curtain on Nike.

In less than an hour, he has been charged by the Southern District of New York with attempted extortion to the tune of 20 million.

And if that weren't enough, he's also facing an indictment in California on SEPARATE charges of embezzlement.

...and he stepped in gum after he spilt coffee on himself. This just isn't his day!!

[noteggs]

Looks like it’s been a bad couple of months, sounds like Stormy canned him last month.

[noteggs]

I think many of us have been canned by Stormy.

Literally LOL. But do tell!

[xu82]

Literally LOL. But do tell!

That’s between me, Stormy, and the people attending on the night Pee Wee Herman found the county lockup.

[noteggs]

That’s between me, Stormy, and the people attending on the night Pee Wee Herman found the county lockup.

Ok. Now I’m starting to think your wife’s ankle injury may take us to a different direction. Trampoline? Or you crazy kids?

On a serious note, how’s she doing?

[xu82]

Ok. Now I’m starting to think your wife’s ankle injury may take us to a different direction. Trampoline? Or you crazy kids?

On a serious note, how’s she doing?

A) No comment

B) Much better, thanks. Still stiffens if she walks too much, like last weekend in Asheville. Not in “hiking mode” yet. She heads to NYC early am, and I follow her the next day. Going to see To Kill a Mockingbird Friday with her. She gets around normally unless she pushes it. Heard the trampoline park has roughly one injury like that daily. That’s not in the brochure! Sign the waiver and pay up!

[bobbiemcgee]

Avenatti's a jerk but I still don't hear Zion's mom saying she didn't take the cash, nor Nike claiming they didn't pay it.

[kellernr]

Avenatti's a jerk but I still don't hear Zion's mom saying she didn't take the cash, nor Nike claiming they didn't pay it.If a kid is a top 25 recruit he is most likely getting cash offers to go play at these big time schools. Wasnt Zion on the original list of players that were offered money? He doesnt just magically show up to Duke for free.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Xville]

True...avenatti is a douche, but I'm fairly certain Zion or his family got paid somehow.i think that's just the way it is for these top guys....also, adidas was not the only shoe company cheating, just no way.

[xavierj]

This is an interesting article. Not sure how Miller keeps skating away. Also interesting that former Xavier player Anthony Coleman bring mentioned. Had no idea he was an assistant at Arizona State.
https://es.pn/2VspD16

[Masterofreality]

This is an interesting article. Not sure how Miller keeps skating away. Also interesting that former Xavier player Anthony Coleman bring mentioned. Had no idea he was an assistant at Arizona State.
https://es.pn/2VspD16

If the NCAA lets Arizona skate in this deal, then we know for sure that the Emperor has no Clothes. As if we didn't know that already.

[Xavgrad08]

Oh Sean, say it is not so. Book sounds like a street hustler. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26635320/dawkins-wiretaps-miller-fronted-ayton-deal

[GoMuskies]

What are the chances Book wasn't doing some shady shit at Xavier? 0%?

[paulxu]

What are the chances Book wasn't doing some shady shit at Xavier? 0%?

How depressing.

[Xavgrad08]

What are the chances Book wasn't doing some shady shit at Xavier? 0%?

I just hope He does not write a tell all book, or cooperate with the NCAA. He will never coach in college hoops again.

[xavierj]

What are the chances Book wasn't doing some shady shit at Xavier? 0%?

I don’t know. I mean Xavier wasn’t exactly recruiting at a high level then. I think they were all 2 and 3 star players. Arizona is a different world with different expectations. Book was at Xavier like over 12 years ago and Xavier was in the A-10. If he was doing shady shit then, he wasn’t doing it right.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think Book recruited Kevin Parrom to X and then sean took both to AZ. Famous "Buick to Lexus" remark.

[GIMMFD]

I just hope He does not write a tell all book, or cooperate with the NCAA. He will never coach in college hoops again.

Yeah this is bad stuff, I didn't know the extent of it until now, but Book seems like a really crooked assistant, good God the amount of money moving around for shit like this is insane.

[bleedXblue]

So how does Miller wiggle his way out of this situation? I just don't see how he can deny not knowing this stuff was going on?

[Blue Blooded-05]

All this for a guy who lead Arizona to an embarrassing 19 point loss in the 1st round of the NCAA Tournament to a MAC school

[xavierj]

So how does Miller wiggle his way out of this situation? I just don't see how he can deny not knowing this stuff was going on?

Does anyone really think anything will happen? I mean Sean in the midst of this just signed the number 1 class in the country and Arizona could seem to care less about any of this. Book fell on the sword similar to John Loyer did for Huggs back in the day. And LSU just reinstated Wade. The NCAA does very little to punish cheating and the college basketball and football coaches know it. Arizona will maybe lose a scholarship or 2 as will LSU, maybe forfeit some games but that is about it.

[sirthought]

Edmond Sumner gets mentioned in this one again. The specific deal from the witness takes about giving him a loan or something after he was drafted, but he also says he had to pay off a financial advisor who already had an arrangement with Sumner. So who knows what happened there?

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26612504/paying-coaches-was-scam-not-bribes

[noteggs]

How depressing.

Depressing indeed considering Book was lead recruiter for this guy...

https://247sports.com/Player/Terrell-Holloway-60432/high-school-105281/

[scoscox]

Fortunately Christian Dawkins wasn’t around back then. And I’m not saying it didn’t happen here/book didn’t cheat here but the differences between the resources at Arizona and Xavier are pretty significant. The ability to cheat is somewhat limited for that alone. Not saying it didn’t happen just that it’s more difficult to do at xavier

[xu82]

Depressing indeed considering Book was lead recruiter for this guy...

https://247sports.com/Player/Terrell-Holloway-60432/high-school-105281/

He was only a three star, no biggie. Maybe a Big Dan or a Zipburger? :-)


Tells you something about theses rankings, for sure!

[scoscox]

Another reason to be skeptical is that Sean’s recruiting classes at Xavier weren’t anything special

[xavierj]

Another reason to be skeptical is that Sean’s recruiting classes at Xavier weren’t anything special

No kidding. Look at the 2007 and 2008 roster. I mean brad Redford was like the best recruit god love him. I think Sean did his best coaching at Xavier. Had average talent.

[scoscox]

No kidding. Look at the 2007 and 2008 roster. I mean brad Redford was like the best recruit god love him. I think Sean did his best coaching at Xavier. Had average talent.

Agreed

[Xavier]

He was only a three star, no biggie. Maybe a Big Dan or a Zipburger? :-)


Tells you something about theses rankings, for sure!

I think when it originally broke (the Miller stuff) Tu/Lyons tweeted in support of Sean and how the players just need to feed their families or something. I would be surprised if shady stuff wasn't happening at X. I don't think it will be traceable that far back but I would be more surprised if shady recruiting wasn't going on than if it was.


Granted, I think this is way deeper than most think. I do think 3 stars get paid (not as lucratively, obviously). I think recruiting battles in smaller conferences (MAC) are swayed the same way they are in bigger ones.

[XU 87]

Another reason to be skeptical is that Sean’s recruiting classes at Xavier weren’t anything special

Kenny Frease-top 50

Lyons- top 100

Holloway- decommit from IU, but also had offers from OSU, Marquette, and Oklahoma.

D. Brown- per 247, he chose X over Mich. State, NC State and Wake (and UD, but that is a bad argument).

Kevin Parrom was a top 100, although he de-committed.

Josh Duncan- top 100. Chose X over UK.

Adrion Graves- didn't play much, but chose X over Purdue, Seton Hall, and UC. (And Dayton).

Dante Jackson- top 100.

[Xville]

I think when it originally broke (the Miller stuff) Tu/Lyons tweeted in support of Sean and how the players just need to feed their families or something. I would be surprised if shady stuff wasn't happening at X. I don't think it will be traceable that far back but I would be more surprised if shady recruiting wasn't going on than if it was.


Granted, I think this is way deeper than most think. I do think 3 stars get paid (not as lucratively, obviously). I think recruiting battles in smaller conferences (MAC) are swayed the same way they are in bigger ones.

Agreed. I think it is pretty naive of people to think that it is only the top 20-30 players every year getting paid or help outside of the rules in some way. They arent getting six figures but I'm gonna to assume guys like tu and Lyons got something and that similar players at xavier are as well. Again, just my opinion and I have no factual basis for this, but I think it is pretty logical to believe this kind of stuff goes on across the country with all the different things that have come out recently.

[XU 87]

No kidding. Look at the 2007 and 2008 roster. I mean brad Redford was like the best recruit god love him. I think Sean did his best coaching at Xavier. Had average talent.

Redford was the lowest rated recruit in that class- behind Frease, Lyons, Holloway and even Brian Walsh.

[Masterofreality]

Redford was the lowest rated recruit in that class- behind Frease, Lyons, Holloway and even Brian Walsh.

Wasn't Brad Mr. Basketball in Michigan his senior year?

[GoMuskies]

Wasn't Brad Mr. Basketball in Michigan his senior year?

Yes, over some Dayton recruit, as I recall, which drove them crazy. Brad played horrible competition and scored about a million points his senior year.

OK, I looked it up, and Brad actually beat out....Draymond Green. LOL

Paul Williams was the Dayton guy I was thinking of, and he came in third.

[XU 87]

Wasn't Brad Mr. Basketball in Michigan his senior year?

Don't know, but when reviewing the old recruiting rankings and ratings, he was last in that recruiting class, and the difference between him and Walsh, who was fourth, was significant. Walsh had offers from Maryland and Memphis.

[Xville]

Very odd to point to 2007 2008 Xavier roster as a sign that Miller "recruited average talent," due to the fact that is arguably Xavier's most talented roster and best team ever, along with it being one of the best recruiting classes ever in Frease, Tu and Lyons

[GoMuskies]

Very odd to point to 2007 2008 Xavier roster as a sign that Miller "recruited average talent," due to the fact that is arguably Xavier's most talented roster and best team ever, along with it being one of the best recruiting classes ever in Frease, Tu and Lyons

Ha, yeah, we only won 30 games, got a #3 seed and advanced to the Elite Eight.

[XU 87]

Ha, yeah, we only won 30 games, got a #3 seed and advanced to the Elite Eight.

Followed by back to back Sweet 16's.

[xavierj]

Very odd to point to 2007 2008 Xavier roster as a sign that Miller "recruited average talent," due to the fact that is arguably Xavier's most talented roster and best team ever, along with it being one of the best recruiting classes ever in Frease, Tu and Lyons

It may not have been average talent but it was littered with 2 and 3 star recruits. None of those guys were considered elite. TU turned out really good but he fell in Xavier’s lap and Freese was average. Point was if any wrong doing was going hopefully you are signing big time recruits like WKU. Miller did a great job with those teams and then Chris also benefited from it as well.

[XU 87]

It may not have been average talent but it was littered with 2 and 3 star recruits.

I repeat:

Kenny Frease-top 50

Lyons- top 100

Holloway- decommit from IU, but also had offers from OSU, Marquette, and Oklahoma.

D. Brown- per 247, he chose X over Mich. State, NC State and Wake (and UD, but that is a bad argument).

Kevin Parrom was a top 100, although he de-committed.

Josh Duncan- top 100. Chose X over UK.

Adrion Graves- didn't play much, but chose X over Purdue, Seton Hall, and UC. (And Dayton).

Dante Jackson- top 100.

[Xville]

It may not have been average talent but it was littered with 2 and 3 star recruits. None of those guys were considered elite. TU turned out really good but he fell in Xavier’s lap and Freese was average. Point was if any wrong doing was going hopefully you are signing big time recruits like WKU. Miller did a great job with those teams and then Chris also benefited from it as well.

Frease was a top 40 recruit, that's not an average recruit
Lyons was well within the top 100.
You stated Redford was the best recruit that year, that's not even close to being true
Derrick brown was in the nba albeit briefly.
Drew lavender though a transfer was a mc d all american

[xubrew]

I just hope He does not write a tell all book, or cooperate with the NCAA. He will never coach in college hoops again.

I hope he does do this. This is, in fact, exactly what I want him (and others) to do.

I remember how Sean Miller came out and emphatically denied ESPN's initial report on all this, and people believed him. Some were actually saying that ESPN was going to be in hot water for getting it wrong. That's when it kind of dawned on me. The vast majority of people fall into two categories. They either have no clue about what typically goes on, or they do know what typically goes on but don't know what to do about it, so they just pretend that none of it is happening and choose to believe the liars. And, I guess I get that. I mean...if something that damning comes out and people still don't believe it, then it makes sense why so many people just go along with it, and have gone along with it for over twenty years. It's probably actually been going on for a lot longer than that.

[Xville]

I hope he does do this. This is, in fact, exactly what I want him (and others) to do.

I remember how Sean Miller came out and emphatically denied ESPN's initial report on all this, and people believed him. Some were actually saying that ESPN was going to be in hot water for getting it wrong. That's when it kind of dawned on me. The vast majority of people fall into two categories. They either have no clue about what typically goes on, or they do know what typically goes on but don't know what to do about it, so they just pretend that none of it is happening and choose to believe the liars. And, I guess I get that. I mean...if something that damning comes out and people still don't believe it, then it makes sense why so many people just go along with it, and have gone along with it for over twenty years. It's probably actually been going on for a lot longer than that.

I'd add a third category of people...those that know there is cheating but no longer really care because the ncaa is so damn corrupt and picks and chooses who gets in trouble based on a flip of a coin.

[XU 87]

I'd add a third category of people...those that know there is cheating but no longer really care because the ncaa is so damn corrupt and picks and chooses who gets in trouble based on a flip of a coin.


Are you referring to the famous statement, "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky that they are gong to put Cleveland State on probation."?

[xubrew]

I'd add a third category of people...those that know there is cheating but no longer really care because the ncaa is so damn corrupt and picks and chooses who gets in trouble based on a flip of a coin.

I would describe the NCAA as a clusterfuck. I don't think it's so much corrupt (at least not holistically from the top down) as much as it is lacking in adequacy to an almost comedic level.

I will say that I think a lot of people within various areas of the NCAA have known about this for a long time, but did not feel they could do anything about it. And, they were probably right. What authority does an NCAA investigator really have? What authority does a staffer really have? They may have some influence over the schools, but they have no influence at all over the apparel companies, or the agents, or the runners. So, while it looks like they're looking the other way, I think it's more accurate to say they just don't think looking at it will do all that much good. That's why I'm actually glad that the FBI is finally busting some of this up.

[xubrew]

The other thing that the NCAA has its hands full with right now is that they've basically been getting their asses kicked in court in every single student-athletes rights case since 2016.

I haven't seen anyone make this connection yet, but I think there probably is a connection. If the NCAA keeps fighting this like they have been, I think they will eventually lose. The letter of the law just isn't on their side. You can say you feel that it's right for players to be paid or to not be paid, but we are pretty much past that right now. They lost the O'Bannon case. The NLRB ruled with the Northwestern players in stating that they are employees. If (and really WHEN) the issue is finally pushed that the NCAA's current structure constitutes price fixing, I don't see how they could argue against it. There is a stated limit on what players, who the NLRB says are employees, can receive, and 353 schools agree to it. That's illegal. Furthermore, if the question comes up whether or not schools would pay athletes if they were allowed to do so? then how can the NCAA possibly argue that schools wouldn't pay players if they were allowed to do so when schools are already paying players when they're NOT allowed to do so??

So, what happens if that happens? Can anyone that's on trial now have their convictions (if found guilty) upheld if it's also ruled that the NCAA is guilty of price fixing, and denying the players the right to be paid their market rates is against the law?

[xavierj]

I repeat:

Kenny Frease-top 50

Lyons- top 100

Holloway- decommit from IU, but also had offers from OSU, Marquette, and Oklahoma.

D. Brown- per 247, he chose X over Mich. State, NC State and Wake (and UD, but that is a bad argument).

Kevin Parrom was a top 100, although he de-committed.

Josh Duncan- top 100. Chose X over UK.

Adrion Graves- didn't play much, but chose X over Purdue, Seton Hall, and UC. (And Dayton).

Dante Jackson- top 100.

Lyons and Redford were three stars and again none of these guys were all stars that anyone would pay for which is what this thread is about. Sean Miller paid Ayton $10K a month at Arizona, based on who he recruited to Xavier, he wasn’t doing that at Xavier it if he was he wasn’t getting 5 stars, which are the guys that get paid.

[bjf123]

Oops! Doesn’t look good for Sean.

https://sports.yahoo.com/arizona-sean-miller-paid-players-wiretaps-federal-hoops-corruption-case-153718418.html?soc_src=newsroom&soc_trk=com.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard&.tsrc=newsroom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xubrew]

Lyons and Redford were three stars and again none of these guys were all stars that anyone would pay for which is what this thread is about. Sean Miller paid Ayton $10K a month at Arizona, based on who he recruited to Xavier, he wasn’t doing that at Xavier it if he was he wasn’t getting 5 stars, which are the guys that get paid.

Maybe they were paying players at Xavier. Maybe they weren't. But anyone who says that five star players are the only ones being paid has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I honestly really don't care. If they didn't pay players, then great. If they did pay players, then I'm actually okay with it so long as they own it and say that they no longer want this to be a part of the game. Shit happens, and it happens at a lot of places with a lot of players. I just hope that if they're called on it (which they probably won't be, to be honest) they don't try and pretend it didn't happen if it actually did happen.

[MHettel]

But anyone who says that five star players are the only ones being paid has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

.

Thats a bloated statement. You say it as if it is factual. Please provide such facts.

[xavierj]

Thats a bloated statement. You say it as if it is factual. Please provide such facts.

Yep

[xavierj]

Maybe they were paying players at Xavier. Maybe they weren't. But anyone who says that five star players are the only ones being paid has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I honestly really don't care. If they didn't pay players, then great. If they did pay players, then I'm actually okay with it so long as they own it and say that they no longer want this to be a part of the game. Shit happens, and it happens at a lot of places with a lot of players. I just hope that if they're called on it (which they probably won't be, to be honest) they don't try and pretend it didn't happen if it actually did happen.

I have some first hand knowledge of the recruiting game, although football, and coaches just are not going to pay everyone. Not every coach is paying and there is no reason to to do it if you are not getting the upper 1% of high school athletes. So maybe you really have no idea what you are talking about. Some might get some extra benefits but not the cash payments, which is happening with A select few athletes.

[xubrew]

Thats a bloated statement. You say it as if it is factual. Please provide such facts.

How about if I just explain basically how it works??

In my opinion the real culprits are the sports agencies such as ASM, and AAC, and several others. The apparel companies basically funnel money to the agencies to help steer their top shelf athletes and clients toward them. It's then a trickle down effect because the agencies then reaches out to AAU coaches and college coaches to try and build relationships with professional prospects so they can sign them and "financially advise" them or "manage" them. Anyone, even a player who can make money playing in Europe, is likely to be targeted. Even players who weren't big targets while they were being recruited can become targeted later on while they're playing in college.

Like I said earlier, it's the againts/advisors/managers that I view as the problem. There are countless examples of players (who really are just college kids) who have had their lives ruined, their money stolen, and their chances of finishing college go away because of these "advisors." "Give me access to all your money and I'll take care of it." And, a lot of them do. On top of that, the college and AAU coaches who should be protecting these kids from these types of people are instead steering them toward them because they're getting money funneled to them as well.

So, when you see a program that has a certain apparel deal, even if it's not a P5 program or a program with NBA level players but still produces pro prospects, and all of their players start signing with the same AAC, or ASM, or whatever agency, then it's kind of hard to not be suspicious of that. Especially if it happens after the arrival of a new assistant coach or recruiting specialist that's getting their players from a lot of the same AAU pipelines.

[xubrew]

I have some first hand knowledge of the recruiting game, although football, and coaches just are not going to pay everyone. Not every coach is paying and there is no reason to to do it if you are not getting the upper 1% of high school athletes. So maybe you really have no idea what you are talking about. Some might get some extra benefits but not the cash payments, which is happening with A select few athletes.

Okay, you HONESTLY think that only one percent of college basketball players are getting paid?? You REALLY think that??

You know what?? Nevermind. It isn't worth having a conversation because we're just too far apart on what we think the facts are.

I'm not saying XAVIER paid players while Miller was there. I honestly have no idea. I'm just saying that just because a school doesn't have five star recruits doesn't mean their players aren't being targeted by agencies and having money funneled to them through the coaches.

[xavierj]

Okay, you HONESTLY think that only one percent of college basketball players are getting paid?? You REALLY think that??

You know what?? Nevermind. It isn't worth having a conversation because we're just too far apart on what we think the facts are.

I'm not saying XAVIER paid players while Miller was there. I honestly have no idea. I'm just saying that just because a school doesn't have five star recruits doesn't mean their players aren't being targeted by agencies and having money funneled to them.

I don’t have a problem with agencies funneling money to kids. I do have a problem with coaches paying $10,000 a month for top 10 recruits, and that happens. Coaches just are not taking the risk on kids that could be a miss, but they are paying for can’t miss, at least a select few programs. That has to be punished. And yes only 1% of athletes, if that are getting paid by the coaches. It’s not everyone. There are thousands of high school football and basketball players, so 1% might be a high estimate, it might be less than 1%.

[xubrew]

Well, the agencies typically funnel the money to the players THROUGH THE COACHES. So, there's that.

Football is an entirely different animal. There's no AAU involvement, one or two players don't have as much of an impact on the overall success of the team, the players that aren't skill players (which is most of them) aren't as marketable so they're less likely to get as many endorsement deals, and there are far fewer opportunities for six figure salaries on a worldwide scale because there is basically the NFL, and that's it. The bigger concern in football is the boosters. It's not agents trying to pay bribes through back door channels to get clients as much as it is boosters who have a lot of money and want to give some to the players for whatever reason.

If you're saying one percent of all ATHLETES, then yeah. That's probably right. Women's soccer players and men's cross country runners just aren't being targeted by agents. But if you're saying it's one percent of men's college basketball players, then that's a HUGE underestimation. You initially said it was just the five star recruits. That's not even close to the reality. They might be the only ones getting six players before they even get to college, but they're not the only ones getting money in a way that's against NCAA rules. Well, at least for now. It could be that in a few years that the final verdict is that while all these schools did break all these NCAA rules, that it was all irrelevant because the courts will have ruled that the NCAA must change their rules.

[sirthought]

The wiretap phone call sounds bad, but until they can actually prove that money exchanged hands from Miller to a player's family it's all just talk. Book could have been telling Dawkins anything to keep them in play for Dawkins' paying other kids. There's a difference between the agents and shoe company people doing it and the school's staff directly.

Having a discussion talking about it happening and proof that it happened are two different things. That's not to say that it didn't, but I think the FBI would have led with showing the financial transactions first if they indeed had that proof. Did I miss something?

[coasterville95]

So, reassure me. Does anybody think this may come back to bite us? I see people on here reviewing the great luck Miller had with his last few recuruiting classes here, and hope there is nothing more to it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GoMuskies]

I'd say there's a 0% chance any of this is going to affect Xavier in any way. It's just a matter of whether we find out our guys were dirty or not, but Xavier isn't going to get punished for something that happened more than 10 years ago.

[xavierj]

I'd say there's a 0% chance any of this is going to affect Xavier in any way. It's just a matter of whether we find out our guys were dirty or not, but Xavier isn't going to get punished for something that happened more than 10 years ago.

Xavier will not be mentioned in this and very little will happen to any of these programs. It’s the NCAA. Sean Miller, KY and Duke will keep getting the best players and life will go on. As for Xavier, they were not paying players. Now if they were reeling in Western KY recruiting classes then maybe. I mean Xavier doesn’t even want to pay coaches what everyone else’s does, you think they will just pay Recruits? This isn’t rocket science?!

[Xville]

Xavier will not be mentioned in this and very little will happen to any of these programs. It’s the NCAA. Sean Miller, KY and Duke will keep getting the best players and life will go on. As for Xavier, they were not paying players. Now if they were reeling in Western KY recruiting classes then maybe. I mean Xavier doesn’t even want to pay coaches what everyone else’s does, you think they will just pay Recruits? This isn’t rocket science?!

Lots of assumptions in this paragraph

[waggy]

A community college player told me THEY were getting paid.

[MHettel]

Well, the agencies typically funnel the money to the players THROUGH THE COACHES. So, there's that.

Football is an entirely different animal. There's no AAU involvement, one or two players don't have as much of an impact on the overall success of the team, the players that aren't skill players (which is most of them) aren't as marketable so they're less likely to get as many endorsement deals, and there are far fewer opportunities for six figure salaries on a worldwide scale because there is basically the NFL, and that's it. The bigger concern in football is the boosters. It's not agents trying to pay bribes through back door channels to get clients as much as it is boosters who have a lot of money and want to give some to the players for whatever reason.

If you're saying one percent of all ATHLETES, then yeah. That's probably right. Women's soccer players and men's cross country runners just aren't being targeted by agents. But if you're saying it's one percent of men's college basketball players, then that's a HUGE underestimation. You initially said it was just the five star recruits. That's not even close to the reality. They might be the only ones getting six players before they even get to college, but they're not the only ones getting money in a way that's against NCAA rules. Well, at least for now. It could be that in a few years that the final verdict is that while all these schools did break all these NCAA rules, that it was all irrelevant because the courts will have ruled that the NCAA must change their rules.

I’m right back where I started. You paint some picture of what might be true, and then declare that’d its true.

I actually have facts. 2 of them.

#1- I don’t actually know anything about this.
#2- neither do you

It makes sense to pay a player under only 1 circumstance. When it’s an investment wherein the payer can get a return. That return could be measured in wins which lead to a bigger job, or it could be measured in the fact that the chance or representing the player in his business affairs is increased.

But the issue is not systemic at a low level. Does it happen? Probably. Some chump gives a few hundred to a kid on occasion.

But this issue is about the big money of sports.

[xubrew]

I’m right back where I started. You paint some picture of what might be true, and then declare that’d its true.

I suppose that's fair, but what you're asking me for is not realistic. You say you want facts, but discussing a topic like this on a message board limits what can be provided. I can't exactly supply you with any stats or documents, and if I were to keep giving examples you would remain right back where you started by believing they're statements that I'm merely declaring to be true without providing any facts. People just kinda have to take or leave what I have to say, and if they want to leave it then that's fine.

[Muskie in dayton]

A community college player told me THEY were getting paid.

You misheard. He didn’t say “paid”.

[scoscox]

they all get stipends, so technically the ncaa is already paying their athletes

[MHettel]

I suppose that's fair, but what you're asking me for is not realistic. You say you want facts, but discussing a topic like this on a message board limits what can be provided. I can't exactly supply you with any stats or documents, and if I were to keep giving examples you would remain right back where you started by believing they're statements that I'm merely declaring to be true without providing any facts. People just kinda have to take or leave what I have to say, and if they want to leave it then that's fine.

Ok, so basically you have formed an opinon. And that opinion "comes to life" under the picture that you painted. I'm totally fine with that. But you dont present it as an opinion at all. You present it as fact. And THEN you come up with this doozy....

"But anyone who says that five star players are the only ones being paid has absolutely no idea what they are talking about."

You are basically saying that anyone that doesn't also adopt your opinion is wrong. So I'm calling you out on it and asking you to back up your opinion with some facts.

so can you? Or will you just concede that you have an opinion. And also that others are entitled to opinions as well. And only facts will determine if one of those opinions is right and another is worng....

[xubrew]

Again, I can only do so much on a message board, and what I can do wouldn't meet your standard of proof even if I wanted to. Not saying that they have, but if I claimed that agents had told me how many players they'd given money to, you'd want me to prove that. If I gave the names, you'd want me to prove I wasn't just making it up. It'd be the same if I claimed that players and coaches had told me about it. You'd ask if I could prove that, and I obviously can't because even if that were true there is just no way for me to do that, and even if there were I wouldn't take it that far because I don't care enough about whether or not people on a message board believe it. Like I said, people can take it or leave it, but if they decide to leave it then I wish they'd at least consider that this whole mess may be far more rampant than they think that it is. If more people wake up to it then it will hopefully finally start to get cleaned up. I guess we'll wait for more facts to come out.

[bleedXblue]

Geesh this whole thing is a clusterfu%*.

I would love to know how the hell these kids get "paid". For sure it has to be cash.

There has to be some kind of paper trail. Kid gives the cash to his parents who then in turn buy a new car or a house.......

[GIMMFD]

they all get stipends, so technically the ncaa is already paying their athletes

Yup, one of my close friends that played at WVU got ridiculous stipends, not to mention they'd get money for "meals" while away on those holiday tournaments, not sure if I should disclose amounts, but let's just say they had more than enough, especially considering the fact that most meals were team meals anyways.


Geesh this whole thing is a clusterfu%*.

I would love to know how the hell these kids get "paid". For sure it has to be cash.

There has to be some kind of paper trail. Kid gives the cash to his parents who then in turn buy a new car or a house.......

You'd be surprised how good various programs are at covering their asses, it's pretty damn wide spread, it's definitely cash, but I mean if you haven't read the Bag Man article Sports Illustrated had for college football a while ago, I'd recommend it, there's also other various stories like Tosh Lupoi's coffee cup method, etc.

[bobbiemcgee]

they all get stipends, so technically the ncaa is already paying their athletes

Yeah, Book said Sean was paying Ayton $10,000 a month. Nice stipend.

[sirthought]

Again, I can only do so much on a message board, and what I can do wouldn't meet your standard of proof even if I wanted to.


Man, I hate to be negative but you've really gone off the rails with this one...and it's not the first time. It's not that I don't enjoy reading the water cooler conversation around the sport, but on topics like this when you are writing SO many words and it's not even got one ounce of insider knowledge posted behind it, you're really wasting everyone's time to have to slog through the posts and figure what the hell is real and speculation.

To say you know, when you don't really know...just don't.

[94GRAD]

Again, I can only do so much on a message board, and what I can do wouldn't meet your standard of proof even if I wanted to. Not saying that they have, but if I claimed that agents had told me how many players they'd given money to, you'd want me to prove that. If I gave the names, you'd want me to prove I wasn't just making it up. It'd be the same if I claimed that players and coaches had told me about it. You'd ask if I could prove that, and I obviously can't because even if that were true there is just no way for me to do that, and even if there were I wouldn't take it that far because I don't care enough about whether or not people on a message board believe it. Like I said, people can take it or leave it, but if they decide to leave it then I wish they'd at least consider that this whole mess may be far more rampant than they think that it is. If more people wake up to it then it will hopefully finally start to get cleaned up. I guess we'll wait for more facts to come out.


Man, I hate to be negative but you've really gone off the rails with this one...and it's not the first time. It's not that I don't enjoy reading the water cooler conversation around the sport, but on topics like this when you are writing SO many words and it's not even got one ounce of insider knowledge posted behind it, you're really wasting everyone's time to have to slog through the posts and figure what the hell is real and speculation.

To say you know, when you don't really know...just don't.

He's saying he has insider knowledge, some people just don't believe him. Based on his history of posts on various topics, I believe him.

[xubrew]

Man, I hate to be negative but you've really gone off the rails with this one...and it's not the first time. It's not that I don't enjoy reading the water cooler conversation around the sport, but on topics like this when you are writing SO many words and it's not even got one ounce of insider knowledge posted behind it, you're really wasting everyone's time to have to slog through the posts and figure what the hell is real and speculation.

To say you know, when you don't really know...just don't.

Haha. Sometimes you can't be on the rails and explain something that is off the rails.

I fear that one of these days, the NCAA is going to go off the rails. We may be faced with a world where the NCAA is unable to fairly and effectively control everything, and where people start to question it. That day may be coming!

[Masterofreality]

Haha. Sometimes you can't be on the rails and explain something that is off the rails.

I fear that one of these days, the NCAA is going to go off the rails. We may be faced with a world where the NCAA is unable to fairly and effectively control everything, and where people start to question it. That day may be coming!

It's kinda already here, isn't it?

If nothing else, the North Carolina scandal that wasn't in the eyes of the NCAA showed that.

[xubrew]

It's kinda already here, isn't it?

If nothing else, the North Carolina scandal that wasn't in the eyes of the NCAA showed that.

Yes. I was making a joke.

[GoMuskies]

Book got three months in the clink.

[STL_XUfan]

Book got three months in the clink.
Hearing the judge refer to Arizona as the victim is just baffling.

[Xville]

Book got three months in the clink.

I'm assuming it is white collar resort prison, and not federal pound me in the a prison?

[bleedXblue]

So how much money did the government spend on this to send someone to jail for 3 months?

[JTG]

At least someone is paying a price for what happened
The bigger question is How did Miller skate in this whole deal, and how much did lil' brother Archie know ? And when will the UL mess get resolved ?

[xavierj]

At least someone is paying a price for what happened
The bigger question is How did Miller skate in this whole deal, and how much did lil' brother Archie know ? And when will the UL mess get resolved ?

It’s all done. The NCAA will spend a few years acting like they are investigating and no one will be punished. It will be business as usual. Arizona just signed a monster class with three one and done first round picks. Crazy.

[XUGRAD80]

Not so fast......CBS Sports is reporting that the NCAA will allege that MAJOR violations took place at SIX schools. They are not naming those schools right now, but expect the schools mentioned in the court cases to be among those six. Two of them will receive their notice in July. Upwards of 20 schools were mentioned in the court cases and the NCAA investigations will continue.

The NCAA was asked to hold off on any further action until after the federal court cases were done, but evidently that didn’t mean that they were not conducting investigations, only that they were not moving beyond the investigations until now.

This is going to get interesting!

[Muskie in dayton]

Not so fast......CBS Sports is reporting that the NCAA will allege that MAJOR violations took place at SIX schools. They are not naming those schools right now, but expect the schools mentioned in the court cases to be among those six. Two of them will receive their notice in July. Upwards of 20 schools were mentioned in the court cases and the NCAA investigations will continue.

The NCAA was asked to hold off on any further action until after the federal court cases were done, but evidently that didn’t mean that they were not conducting investigations, only that they were not moving beyond the investigations until now.

This is going to get interesting!

I’ll believe it when I see it... or when North Carolina actually gets punished for the academic scandal. I won’t hold my breath.

[Masterofreality]

A errrrrr, Three year ban on postseason play for Louisewer sounds about like the right punishment.

[Xville]

Not so fast......CBS Sports is reporting that the NCAA will allege that MAJOR violations took place at SIX schools. They are not naming those schools right now, but expect the schools mentioned in the court cases to be among those six. Two of them will receive their notice in July. Upwards of 20 schools were mentioned in the court cases and the NCAA investigations will continue.

The NCAA was asked to hold off on any further action until after the federal court cases were done, but evidently that didn’t mean that they were not conducting investigations, only that they were not moving beyond the investigations until now.

This is going to get interesting!

I doubt it is going to be that interesting. There will be some scholarship loses and some schools will receive a postseason ban...whoopee do. That's basically a slap on the wrist for cheating for I presume decades. I'm pretty sure Kansas, Arizona, Louisville etc will be just fine. Hell, Louisville signed the number 2 recruiting class this year, a year after being banned. The only thing that would make any difference is the death penalty and that's not going to happen to the cash cows of college basketball...maybe prairie view a&m will get one.

[Masterofreality]

I doubt it is going to be that interesting. There will be some scholarship loses and some schools will receive a postseason ban...whoopee do. That's basically a slap on the wrist for cheating for I presume decades. I'm pretty sure Kansas, Arizona, Louisville etc will be just fine. Hell, Louisville signed the number 2 recruiting class this year, a year after being banned. The only thing that would make any difference is the death penalty and that's not going to happen to the cash cows of college basketball...maybe prairie view a&m will get one.

If Louisewer gets a post-season ban for two years, does that make some of that recuiting class disappear, with no season ending spotlight?

[XUGRAD80]

I doubt it is going to be that interesting. There will be some scholarship loses and some schools will receive a postseason ban...whoopee do. That's basically a slap on the wrist for cheating for I presume decades. I'm pretty sure Kansas, Arizona, Louisville etc will be just fine. Hell, Louisville signed the number 2 recruiting class this year, a year after being banned. The only thing that would make any difference is the death penalty and that's not going to happen to the cash cows of college basketball...maybe prairie view a&m will get one.

If you are saying that the only thing that will stop the cheating is to give programs the death penalty. I agree with you. But I would also say that eliminating all cheating is NEVER going to happen. A)...there are just way to many rules and regulations that very few coaches and staffs can even keep track of. Many times rules are broken and players/coaches/staff/alumni/boosters aren’t even aware that there was a rule about some type of behavior that occurred. B) the odds of getting caught breaking MAJOR infractions is so low that for most schools/coaches it’s worth the risk. By the time they get caught and punished, they have already made millions of dollars. C) if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t competing.

But, if we acknowledge that we can’t stop the cheating, no matter what we do, then we have a couple of options. One is to simplify the rules by making things that were not legal before, legal. By eliminating lots of the rules, especially the ones that make no sense today or can’t be adequately enforced. The other is to just accept that the cheating is going on and to see this whole thing not as a step toward eliminating the cheating, but as an action that will have an effect on the competitive balance of the teams involved and the others not involved.

Personally, I have no hope that nationwide cheating will be eliminated by harsh penalties on a few schools...even the death penalty on those 6 schools. But what I’m looking forward to seeing is how the penalties that might be placed on the schools involved will effect things over the next few years while those penalties are in effect.

That’s why I say it’s about to get interesting. Let’s say that those 6 schools have a postseason ban for the next 4 years. How will that effect the current recruits? How will it effect their ability to recruit over the next 3-4 years? How will it effect other schools ability to compete for league and/or national championships? Will it lead to coaches being fired? And how would that effect other schools coaches? A reduction in scholarships to those 6 schools (and the others) would certainly have an effect on them and other schools too.

Then there is is the whole question about some schools wanting to break away from the NCAA and form their own sanctioning organization and hold their own championships. This has been primarily driven by football. But if the NCAA suddenly give the death penalty to these schools involved does that get basketball coaches interested in the concept to? Keep in mind that the NCAA has only used the death penalty FIVE times....and 2 of those times were to a D2 and a D3 school for soccer and tennis programs respectively. If they hand out 6 death penalties all at once it may be just the incentive that the power 5 conference schools need to actually get them serious about forming their own separate organization. It could be unintentional suicide by the NCAA itself.

[bleedXblue]

The NCAA is going to eventually eliminate themselves. They've become too big, generate (the schools) too much income and cant seem to police themselves. Hence why the Fed is involved now. Its become a colossal joke and the schools know it. Expecting them to do the right thing when you have seen them time and time again protect some of their largest cash cows (North Carolina e.g) is a perfect example of why their model isn't sustainable. Someone eventually will figure out a better way...........

[JTG]

I don't understand the logic that the NCAA is afraid to heavily penalize UL, KU, AZ. People watch the tourney because they gamble. They are still going to watch, even if say those 3 are left out. What's the difference between those 3 being left out or losing the first weekend ?

[xudash]

Anything is possible, but I believe the chances of the P5 breaking away for basketball are virtually nil.

In fact, I believe it would be a disaster for them. The value of the media rights package would be a fraction of what it is for the current tournament set up. Such a move may also attract attention in Washington.

[bleedXblue]

I don't understand the logic that the NCAA is afraid to heavily penalize UL, KU, AZ. People watch the tourney because they gamble. They are still going to watch, even if say those 3 are left out. What's the difference between those 3 being left out or losing the first weekend ?

You think its just the tourney that generates income?

[JTG]

You think its just the tourney that generates income?

No, but UK spent a year with no tv, and no tourney and did fine. They were allowed to show games on tv, but had to wait until the games were over (tape delayed).

[bleedXblue]

No, but UK spent a year with no tv, and no tourney and did fine. They were allowed to show games on tv, but had to wait until the games were over (tape delayed).

Think of it like this. You are the owner of a large corporation. You have some incredibly important employees that generate millions of dollars of profit for your company. Why would you want to do anything to ever jeopardize that? A slap on the wrist is often the penalty.......rarely do schools get heavy sanctions. Stripping UL of their championship......cost the NCAA nothing.......

[JTG]

Ok, fine. Let's just let the blue bloods pay the whole roster $100k each, each year.

[bleedXblue]

Ok, fine. Let's just let the blue bloods pay the whole roster $100k each, each year.

pretty much what its coming down to........

[XUGRAD80]

Ok, fine. Let's just let the blue bloods pay the whole roster $100k each, each year.


I don’t think those players will take a pay cut like that....:(

Seriously though, I have questions for the collective....

How many people here would be OK with Xavier paying its players under the table if it meant a F4 or a NC?
How many people here would stop supporting the school/program if they got caught doing it and the coaches (and anyone else responsible) were not fired on the spot?

Because it is the attitude that everyone else is doing it and that makes it’s OK, or the attitude that says I don’t care if we cheat as long as we win big, that is fueling this whole thing. When winning becomes more important than anything else...like principals...it can only lead to one thing. A win at all costs attitude. When you have that attitude, you will cheat.

[JTG]

I would rather win honestly. If Butler can go to 2 final fours, it's not impossible. And imagine if they had won. They may have ended up like Villanova, before Villanova.

[GIMMFD]

I don’t think those players will take a pay cut like that....:(

Seriously though, I have questions for the collective....

How many people here would be OK with Xavier paying its players under the table if it meant a F4 or a NC?
How many people here would stop supporting the school/program if they got caught doing it and the coaches (and anyone else responsible) were not fired on the spot?

Because it is the attitude that everyone else is doing it and that makes it’s OK, or the attitude that says I don’t care if we cheat as long as we win big, that is fueling this whole thing. When winning becomes more important than anything else...like principals...it can only lead to one thing. A win at all costs attitude. When you have that attitude, you will cheat.

Eh, I wouldn't be okay with it. There's programs out there that don't pay players, by all means it's definitely harder to win when you aren't cheating, but the satisfaction of being successful without having to go to that level is a lot for me. I think by all means Xavier does things the right way, we have a solid program, and I want guys who want to be here and raise the profile of Xavier due to their own wants, not because of financial compensation. May be a naive way to look at it, but it is much more satisfying.

[noteggs]

How many people here would be OK with Xavier paying its players under the table if it meant a F4 or a NC?
How many people here would stop supporting the school/program if they got caught doing it and the coaches (and anyone else responsible) were not fired on the spot?

No way I would support cheating for a F4!!! We’ve climbed this huge ladder and not a time to start!

If it happens, get rid of coach and AD then I’ll think about staying a fan!

[xu82]

No way I would support cheating for a F4!!! We’ve climbed this huge ladder and not a time to start!

If it happens, get rid of coach and AD then I’ll think about staying a fan!

Amen. I don’t need it that bad. But I WOULD like a level playing field.

[xubrew]

You think its just the tourney that generates income?

Do you mean for the schools or for the NCAA itself??

The tourney basically is the only thing the NCAA makes any money off of. ACC TV rights and attendance at Ohio State football games don't do anything for the NCAA League Office's finances. The NCAA makes $1.1 billion per year off the tournament regardless of who is in it, and what's left over after all of the units are paid out is basically all of the money they have.

[xubrew]

I think the biggest problem the NCAA has now is something that most people are missing. Since the OBannon case, they have essentially lost every court case when it comes to players rights and paying players. The FBI trials essentially found individuals guilty for defrauding institutions by making players non-amateurs without the schools knowing it. Well, if the NCAA keeps losing bit by bit in these pay for play cases, are we close to a point in time to where what they did wasn't even illegal??

The reason the NCAA hasn't acted is because they are far more concerned about the pay for play cases than they are the FBI probe. And, perhaps they should be. I think we are way past the point of discussing whether or not paying players is the right thing to do. I think we are now to a point to where the NCAA may lose any and all authority over player compensation because the courts will take it away from them and make the decision for them if they can't work something out ahead of time.

Specifically, I do not see how it does not constitute price fixing. 353 div1 schools all agree to a limit as to what players can get. If players fit the definition of employees, which the NLRB has ruled that they do, then that is illegal.

If players were allowed to be paid, then would schools, or boosters, or agents, or apparel companies, pay them? If the answer is yes, then by law they are being unfairly prevented from receiving their fair market value. I don't see how the NCAA can get around that. Every indication in the courts seems to be that sooner or later, and it may be sooner, they are going to rule that the NCAA's amateurism rules are illegal.

So...then what? I don't know, and it's kind of crazy to think about. I would STRONGLY urge the NCAA and member institutions to try and come up with something that's fair and that makes everyone happy so it doesn't come to the courts doing it for them in a way that they will almost assuredly not like.

[xubrew]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. There is a bill in California that would allow college athletes to make money off of their likenesses that is very likely to pass.

The NCAA's response has been to issue a statement implying that California schools may be banned from NCAA Championship events if the bill is not rewritten.

So, this and other pay for play issues is what the NCAA is most concerned about. Not the FBI probes. This is essentially the hill that the NCAA is making its stand on. As I said in the previous post, I think they are going to lose. They've been losing. The courts, and now a state legislature, continues to rule against them. Instead of fighting something that A) I don't think they can win against, and B) is arguably wrong to be denying the players of any way, I think they should try and work out some sort an agreement that both sides can live with.

But, they won't. They will keep fighting for this ideal of amateurism.

And, I believe they will lose. They've been losing, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that they will keep losing. When that happens, they'll lose total control over player compensation (or lack thereof).


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2019/06/24/ncaa-california-schools-could-banned-championships-over-bill/1542632001/

[JTG]

Brew, do you want the NCAA to lose ? Because if they do, and players are paid, it's going to be really difficult for schools like X. The BE doesn't have the deep deep pockets that the BIG, ACC, SEC have. Lots of D1 bball schools will be relegated to D II status. So be careful what you wish for.

[xubrew]

Brew, do you want the NCAA to lose ? Because if they do, and players are paid, it's going to be really difficult for schools like X. The BE doesn't have the deep deep pockets that the BIG, ACC, SEC have. Lots of D1 bball schools will be relegated to D II status. So be careful what you wish for.

I don't really know what I want, but I don't think it matters because I think we are way past that. I think they're going to lose whether I or anyone else wants them to or not. I think they're going to continue to fight it and then end up losing all control after they lose the fight. I would suggest they try to work it so they don't keep getting taken to court and getting their asses kicked. To do that they are going to have to make concessions that they don't want to make, which is why they're not doing it. But I think that sooner or later we will get to a point to where they really wish they had.

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/nc-state-recruitment-dennis-smith-jr-at-heart-of-major-ncaa-allegations/6rjeht0ghogi1fupdqdorjbn9

[bleedXblue]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/nc-state-recruitment-dennis-smith-jr-at-heart-of-major-ncaa-allegations/6rjeht0ghogi1fupdqdorjbn9

shocking.......

[Xavgrad08]

This writer thinks the NCAA will go after the coaches as opposed to the institution. Would be good news for NC state and Louisville.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article232511232.html

[surfxu]

Chuck "Rifleman" Person, a former assistant at Auburn University was found guilty of accepting $91k in bribes but has avoided jail time and instead has been assigned 200 hours of community service. Sounds like that despite 13 years in the NBA that 'generosity' to others quickly left him broke. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/07/17/former-auburn-assistant-basketball-coach-avoids-prison/39694545/

[xubrew]

The NCAA continues to stick their heads in the sand on the beach so they can avoid having to look at the high tide that's coming in. They keep losing big in court. I know I keep repeating this, but eventually they will lose any ability to control what kinds of compensation players are and are not allowed to receive. This is a little old, but still...

https://www.apnews.com/05258cef8e224f3d986ac546cbb8976b

[bobbiemcgee]

DePaul on probation:

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/depaul-men-s-basketball-associate-head-coach-violated-ncaa-ethical-conduct-rules

[xavierj]

DePaul on probation:

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/depaul-men-s-basketball-associate-head-coach-violated-ncaa-ethical-conduct-rules

Rick Carter

[sirthought]

DePaul on probation:

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/depaul-men-s-basketball-associate-head-coach-violated-ncaa-ethical-conduct-rules

I get that it would be unfair for some schools to do this sort of thing with recruits, while others didn't, but it still feels kind of backwards. An educational system like the NCAA is poo pooing a move that helped a student get his act together to qualify for further educational opportunities. A lot of kids have the ability, they just don't always have the focus. Violations or not, that strategy helped this one person at least get to try college as an option. I don't know who it is they are talking about or if he's doing well elsewhere. The head coach should know that sort of thing wouldn't fly, but you still want to help when you know a person's potential is there and they just need the right guidance.

[scoscox]

Depaul self reported this so it’s not like the ncaa actively sought this out

[sirthought]

Depaul self reported this so it’s not like the ncaa actively sought this out

Really? I thought they were being included on the FBI investigation. Maybe it came out after they knew they were part of the investigation, separately?

[scoscox]

No they self reported this years ago right after it happened. It just takes the ncaa a while to process this kinda stuff

[American X]

We can all sleep better knowing that the NCAA has quelled the menace known as DePaul.

[XU 87]

And how does Leito escape most of the penalties? "NCAA, I didn't know about any of this. No one told me."

He and Sean Miller need to have lunch so Leito can explain how this argument effectively works.

[xubrew]

DePaul just can't do anything right

[bjf123]

We can all sleep better knowing that the NCAA has quelled the menace known as DePaul.

And yet North Carolina can creat completely bogus classes for an easy A for the jocks, but that’s OK because other students can also take the sham course.


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[xubrew]

If you admit to doing something wrong, and are then sanctioned accordingly, then nothing about that should surprise you or seem unfair to you. Anyone who goes to court and pleads guilty, and is then shocked that they are found guilty, is a complete moron. What DePaul got was exactly what they should have expected when they decided to come forward with it. I guess you could have a discussion about whether or not you like the rule, but for them to say that what happened to them was unexpected is idiotic. Granted, we are talking about DePaul.

People keep bringing up North Carolina. While the NCAA didn't do anything, they got absolutely clobbered by the organization that oversees their accreditation. Seven people lost their jobs and basically lost their careers since no one in higher education is likely to ever hire them again. I believe one person faced criminal charges. The school spent tens of millions in fines and legal fees, and because the whole UNC system was put on probation it made it difficult for them to receive federal research grants. If you were to ask the president, the chancellor, and the faculty if they would rather go through all that, or instead have to vacate some wins (which really amounts to nothing more than having to pretend that you didn't win games that everyone knows you won) they would have all preferred the latter. Some faculty support athletics. Most don't care, and some are even hostile towards athletics. If losing their careers, and being put on probation, and paying millions in fines isn't going to deter them from teaching fake classes so they can collect an easy paycheck, then there's nothing the NCAA could do that would deter them any further. The reality is that UNC got smacked down pretty hard. Just not by the NCAA.

[paulxu]

So the people who set up the fake program and let it go on, paid a price. Quelle surprise.

But...the athletic programs which sent dozens and dozens of kids to the programs, kept them eligible, and got championships while making the school a lot of money doesn't even warrant Cleveland State being put on probation? What BS.

[xubrew]

So the people who set up the fake program and let it go on, paid a price. Quelle surprise.

But...the athletic programs which sent dozens and dozens of kids to the programs, kept them eligible, and got championships while making the school a lot of money doesn't even warrant Cleveland State being put on probation? What BS.

Be that as it may, I don't think there is anything the NCAA could have done that wouldn't have resulted in them getting sued and losing. If you've been paying attention, that's been happening to them a lot lately, and little by little they keep losing their grip. This was one rare instance where they had the sense to not do something that would have landed them in court. If it makes people feel any better, I think the NCAA actually wanted to go after UNC, but that their lawyers (wisely) advised them not to.

[paulxu]

Unfortunately it doesn't make me feel better.
What you say may be true; maybe the NCAA's hands were tied.
But one would have to be extremely naive to think Williams and Smith and their coaches didn't know what was going on...as they laughed their way to a place we can only hope to reach some day.

[xubrew]

I'm sure they knew. I'm sure all the assistant coaches knew. I'm sure that all of the support staff knew. I'm sure that the majority of the academic advisors on campus knew, and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of the 13,000 students knew. Any class or professor that's an easy A on any campus in America is typically known about.

If you want a similar scandal, look up what happened with Eastern Oklahoma State and how over 100 div1 schools used online classes from that school to get athletes eligible. That one was probably actually worse.

[bobbiemcgee]

Believe it when I see it:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/kansas-getting-noa-for-“major-violations”-from-ncaa-per-report/ar-AAHBnuH?ocid=spartanntp

[bjf123]

Believe it when I see it:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/kansas-getting-noa-for-“major-violations”-from-ncaa-per-report/ar-AAHBnuH?ocid=spartanntp

Bad link.


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[bobbiemcgee]

They both worked for me on a different computer as well. Try this one:

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article235306247.html

[Xville]

Yeah I dont believe anything the media says related to this issue. At the beginning of this, the FBI and the media acted like this was going to change the college basketball landscape and clean it up. Bunch of bs....Pitino was fired, and some assistant coaches at other programs got in trouble..mind blown. Guarantee programs are still cheating their asses and nothing will ever happen to most of them.

[JTG]

I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't gone after football more. Their golden goose is basketball, so it stands to reason they would tread lightly. They could pick on football without much financial consequences. That said, I have long thought Kansas was running a slimy operation. I hope they get taken down.

[bjf123]

They both worked for me on a different computer as well. Try this one:

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article235306247.html

Thanks. That one worked. I tried on both my iPhone and iPad and the first link returned a 404 file not found error.


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[XUGRAD80]

Yeah I dont believe anything the media says related to this issue. At the beginning of this, the FBI and the media acted like this was going to change the college basketball landscape and clean it up. Bunch of bs....Pitino was fired, and some assistant coaches at other programs got in trouble..mind blown. Guarantee programs are still cheating their asses and nothing will ever happen to most of them.

The wheels of justice many times move slowly

Don’t know what you expected as far as a time line, but when a simple open and shut case of robbery sometimes taking years to go through the court system, why would anyone expect a complicated situation like this to be finished quickly? The NCAA said from the beginning that it would wait for the court cases to be settled before even beginning their process. This won’t be over for at least a couple of years.

[xubrew]

I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't gone after football more. Their golden goose is basketball, so it stands to reason they would tread lightly. They could pick on football without much financial consequences. That said, I have long thought Kansas was running a slimy operation. I hope they get taken down.

I don't think this particular problem runs as rampant in football. Football definitely has its problems, but not apparel companies working with agents who work through college and AAU coaches in ways that are illegal. Most football issues revolve around boosters, and while much of that is against NCAA rules, there is usually nothing criminal about it that would concern the FBI.