West: David West says he doesn’t think unskilled guys from past generations could pla

[Muskie]

Link (http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/06/30/david-west-says-he-doesnt-think-unskilled-from-past-generations-could-play-in-nba-today/)

Golden State Warriors forward David West (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/944/david-west) Is not only one of the oldest players in the NBA, he’s also typically seen as one of the toughest. The 36-year-old big man is in his 14th season, and most recently won the 2017 NBA championship with the warriors.
Speaking to on the Open Run (https://www.uninterrupted.com/watch/JZp0GZFU/david-west-nba-champ) podcast, West was Said he didn’t think that the NBA these days was soft, and in fact some of the tougher, strong big men who weren’t particularly skilled from generations past would not be able to cut it in today’s NBA.

[Xville]

For him to say that the NBA isn't soft is a bit ridiculous. It's extremely soft compared to the game in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean to be the ole "get off my lawn" curmudgeon, well maybe I do, but the NBA is barely watchable to me anymore. I watched the finals this year, and that's it. Players whine about every single call, the flopping is atrocious, and there is no such thing as a post game anymore. It is either shoot a three, or drive the lane for a layup or dunk. He is probably right in that the non-skilled players would be unable to play in the game today, but conversely some of these skilled players of today, would not be able to play well in the game of the 80s or 90s.

[AviatorX]

For him to say that the NBA isn't soft is a bit ridiculous. It's extremely soft compared to the game in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean to be the ole "get off my lawn" curmudgeon, well maybe I do, but the NBA is barely watchable to me anymore. I watched the finals this year, and that's it. Players whine about every single call, the flopping is atrocious, and there is no such thing as a post game anymore. It is either shoot a three, or drive the lane for a layup or dunk. He is probably right in that the non-skilled players would be unable to play in the game today, but conversely some of these skilled players of today, would not be able to play well in the game of the 80s or 90s.

There is good reason for this. It is the smartest way to play basketball.

[Xville]

There is good reason for this. It is the smartest way to play basketball.

Agree to disagree. It didn't used to be this way, and teams scored just fine.

[AviatorX]

Agree to disagree. It didn't used to be this way, and teams scored just fine.

That's fine but you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with numbers. Isolation post ups are one of the least efficient offensive plays by points per shot.

My point doesn't really need to be bogged down in numbers -- the basic idea is that a lack of post ups isn't because the NBA is soft or whatever the narrative of the day is, it's because teams realize it's not a smart way to play.

[Xville]

That's fine but you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with numbers. Isolation post ups are one of the least efficient offensive plays by points per shot.

My point doesn't really need to be bogged down in numbers -- the basic idea is that a lack of post ups isn't because the NBA is soft or whatever the narrative of the day is, it's because teams realize it's not a smart way to play.

Not arguing that lack of post ups means the nba is soft, its soft because its soft. There isn't much physical play if any because the rules have changed. A team can't walk down the floor without there being a whistle anymore, and if one isn't blown, someone bitches to the ref. I just don't enjoy the gameplay as it is right now...im not so sure the players are more skilled, they may be more athletic but not necessarily more skilled.

[STL_XUfan]

I will take any current champion team at the pro, Olympic, or college level over any team from greater than 35 years ago. Athletes are bigger, faster, and strong now then ever before. It is simply a product of advancements in technology and training.

If you want the most objective demonstration of this, just look at Olympic records. 1972 Mark Spitz would lose the 100m freestyle by about 4-5 seconds today.

[muskienick]

I believe another key reason why today's version of the NBA appears to be softer that in eras gone bye is because the NBA now allows zone defenses which were banned in earlier years of the league. 48 minutes of strictly mano a mano Defense versus Offense is a far cry from how the game plays out today. But I do believe, for the most part, that the overall physical talent and athleticism is better now than in earlier years of the NBA. Some old-time players such as Oscar Robertson, Bob Petit, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dr. J., John Havlicek, Bill Russel, Earl The Pearl, Wes Unseld, Jerry West, Walt Frazier, Karl and Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Lenny Wilkens, Bill Sharman, Jerry Lucas, etc., etc., etc. could have been great in today's NBA just like they were "back in the day"! (Dash and Paul will probably get a kick out of seeing those names in print again!)

[xu82]

OOOOH, Dash and Paul just got called OLD!

But (slightly more) seriously, I saw some video of Oscar recently. The carry rule has changed so much he looked like a third grader in terms of ball handling skills. It is so VERY difficult to even guess how guys would translate from different generations. That clip actually shocked me.

[Backyard Champ]

He makes a good point though. A LOT of the bigs in the older days were not very athletic. I'm not necessarily talking the all stars here, but rather the big, bruising defenders. There are not many bigs in the NBA today that aren't also pretty athletic. While there are some, the ratio is far smaller than back in the day.

Though, it's a far different NBA today than years past.

[Juice]

He makes a good point though. A LOT of the bigs in the older days were not very athletic. I'm not necessarily talking the all stars here, but rather the big, bruising defenders. There are not many bigs in the NBA today that aren't also pretty athletic. While there are some, the ratio is far smaller than back in the day.

Though, it's a far different NBA today than years past.

Try to imagine Luc Longley and Bill Wennington being the two centers for a championship team.

[Juice]

Not arguing that lack of post ups means the nba is soft, its soft because its soft. There isn't much physical play if any because the rules have changed. A team can't walk down the floor without there being a whistle anymore, and if one isn't blown, someone bitches to the ref. I just don't enjoy the gameplay as it is right now...im not so sure the players are more skilled, they may be more athletic but not necessarily more skilled.

The league overall is definitely more skilled. It's not even close.

[X-band '01]

Try to imagine Luc Longley and Bill Wennington being the two centers for a championship team.

They got nothing on Bill Cartwright. His FT shooting was a thing of beauty.

[xu82]

It's not a different sport.....but almost.

[xuwin]

The 3 point goal and the shot clock has totally changed the game. You can't really compare them now.

[94GRAD]

For him to say that the NBA isn't soft is a bit ridiculous. It's extremely soft compared to the game in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean to be the ole "get off my lawn" curmudgeon, well maybe I do, but the NBA is barely watchable to me anymore. I watched the finals this year, and that's it. Players whine about every single call, the flopping is atrocious, and there is no such thing as a post game anymore. It is either shoot a three, or drive the lane for a layup or dunk. He is probably right in that the non-skilled players would be unable to play in the game today, but conversely some of these skilled players of today, would not be able to play well in the game of the 80s or 90s.

You saying a 14 year NBA veteran he is wrong is ridiculous!

[bjf123]

It's not a different sport.....but almost.

It's definitely a different game. The players are much better athletes, but there's very little team play. As the oft used cliche says, there's no I in team. But you can sure as hell get me from there, and that sums up the NBA today. It's all about "me" and my stats. The players a generation ago really did play as a team.


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[XUFan09]

It's definitely a different game. The players are much better athletes, but there's very little team play. As the oft used cliche says, there's no I in team. But you can sure as hell get me from there, and that sums up the NBA today. It's all about "me" and my stats. The players a generation ago really did play as a team.


There's very little team play? That's nonsense; it's also a tired line about the current NBA. The passing game in the NBA is incredible and something college players should try to emulate. It's why each year, you have a good proportion of teams with over a 60% assist rate and usually all teams have over a 50% assist rate. You cannot say the same thing about the college level.

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[Xville]

There's very little team play? That's nonsense; it's also a tired line about the current NBA. The passing game in the NBA is incredible and something college players should try to emulate. It's why each year, you have a good proportion of teams with over a 60% assist rate and usually all teams have over a 50% assist rate. You cannot say the same thing about the college level.

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Do you watch the NBA? Cleveland for instance.... they run everything off isolation wth Irving or lebron... golden state I will say plays a pretty decent team game but that is the exception to the rule. You can get an assist off of one pass at the top of the key...

[Xville]

You saying a 14 year NBA veteran he is wrong is ridiculous!

So because he played at Xavier and played in the NBA, every opinion he has is infallible? Of course he is going to have that opinion, because he doesn't want today's game to look bad. If you watch today's game vs 10-30 years ago it's hard to argue the league hasn't become soft.

[muskienick]

Try to imagine Luc Longley and Bill Wennington being the two centers for a championship team.

Or George Mikan or Clyde Lovellette (sp?).

[Juice]

It's definitely a different game. The players are much better athletes, but there's very little team play. As the oft used cliche says, there's no I in team. But you can sure as hell get me from there, and that sums up the NBA today. It's all about "me" and my stats. The players a generation ago really did play as a team.


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Yeah, the team who has been in three finals and won 2 of them in the last three years who has so many shooters that they hurt their own stats is all about "me".

[AviatorX]

Yeah, the team who has been in three finals and won 2 of them in the last three years who has so many shooters that they hurt their own stats is all about "me".

Lol. It's just not worth debating this with people so entrenched in their position that today's game is soft and selfish.

It's obvious to anyone who has even watched 10 minutes of basketball that when you look at a full game from the 80s, those teams would have absolutely no chance against the best modern teams.

[smileyy]

There is good reason for this. It is the smartest way to play basketball.

And looks a lot like Xavier's shot charts.

The defense rules really make it hard to compare to the 90s when you had to play guys 1-1. I loved the Bulls teams and also don't miss that eta.

[smileyy]

Do you watch the NBA? Cleveland for instance.... they run everything off isolation wth Irving or lebron... golden state I will say plays a pretty decent team game but that is the exception to the rule. You can get an assist off of one pass at the top of the key...

The LeBron iso let's him suck defenses in and utilize his passing skills, possibly the best of his generation. The guy posts triple doubles regularly. The Cleveland offense runs off of LeBron driver.

[Juice]

The LeBron iso let's him suck defenses in and utilize his passing skills, possibly the best of his generation. The guy posts triple doubles regularly. The Cleveland offense runs off of LeBron driver.

I just looked it up, and Kyrie has a better PPP on isolation plays than Lebron, which is crazy.

[bjf123]

Do you watch the NBA? Cleveland for instance.... they run everything off isolation wth Irving or lebron... golden state I will say plays a pretty decent team game but that is the exception to the rule. You can get an assist off of one pass at the top of the key...

Agree. I freely admit I don't watch much of the NBA. When I do, here's what I tend to see. Someone walks the ball up court and might make a pass so someone else can throw up a three. If the pass happens to go inside, the Big will travel while making his move for the dunk. If the shot is missed, it's walked back up the other way. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Are there exceptions? Of course, and maybe if I watched more, I'd learn to enjoy the pro game more. So far, that hasn't happened.


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[Backyard Champ]

Yeah, with that description it's fair to say you haven't watched in years.

The team play in the NBA is very good. People watch and think "one pass and shot" have no clue how difficult it is to get that open look. Try watching players without the ball for once.

[XUFan09]

Do you watch the NBA? Cleveland for instance.... they run everything off isolation wth Irving or lebron... golden state I will say plays a pretty decent team game but that is the exception to the rule. You can get an assist off of one pass at the top of the key...
I do watch the NBA, and I probably watch more of it than you, considering that you presented the exception that proves the rule. Lebron is easily the best player in the world, and offenses have to set up differently around him as compared to the rest of the rest of the League. Since no other team has a player like Lebron, they play much more of a team game.

Lebron has an exceptional ability to break down his man and he pairs it with a passing ability on par with the best passers of all time. You have to give him the ball as much as possible and give him a lot of iso situations in order to maximize the team's effectiveness. Because of that, others players don't have much time with the ball. If you have everyone set up around him trying to offer the best passing attempt, then no one is a serious individual threat and you have the "James Gang" of early Cleveland days. The best method is to have a secondary major scoring threat and a bunch of complementary pieces. This was Dwayne Wade in Miami and Irving back in Cleveland. This is the situation that makes a third option like Chris Bosh or Kevin Love sometimes disappear. There just aren't enough possessions to go around at times, but they still at least stretch the floor.

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[XUFan09]

Yeah, with that description it's fair to say you haven't watched in years.

The team play in the NBA is very good. People watch and think "one pass and shot" have no clue how difficult it is to get that open look. Try watching players without the ball for once.

The quality of off-ball screens in the NBA is just on a whole different level from college. When people make fun of the forwards who "suck" (because they just rebound and defend), it's because they don't see how good they are at setting screens within the offense.

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[LA Muskie]

The notion that the players in the 80's and 90's were "tougher" is pretty laughable to me. Today's NBA players are, for the most part, physical specimens the likes of which the game has never seen before. The combination of science, technology, and work has yielded players with strength and agility that is unprecedented. Just because the game looked more physical (because at times it resembled a hockey game -- especially when the Pistons were playing) doesn't mean today's players are soft. Not by any stretch.

[muethibp]

Agree to disagree. It didn't used to be this way, and teams scored just fine.

LOL. Threes/dunks/free throws is the most efficient way to score. It's not his position, it's math.

[muethibp]

Agree. I freely admit I don't watch much of the NBA. When I do, here's what I tend to see. Someone walks the ball up court and might make a pass so someone else can throw up a three. If the pass happens to go inside, the Big will travel while making his move for the dunk. If the shot is missed, it's walked back up the other way. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Are there exceptions? Of course, and maybe if I watched more, I'd learn to enjoy the pro game more. So far, that hasn't happened.


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This is ridiculous and totally incorrect. There's almost no walking it up. The first move is usually a high screen - which you didn't describe - followed by very active passing of the ball to beat a switch or double-team.

Your description is about what I'd expect from a person that doesn't watch what he is describing. Which is actually what you admit to being.

[bjf123]

This is ridiculous and totally incorrect. There's almost no walking it up. The first move is usually a high screen - which you didn't describe - followed by very active passing of the ball to beat a switch or double-team.

Your description is about what I'd expect from a person that doesn't watch what he is describing. Which is actually what you admit to being.

I'll try watching a few games when the NBA returns this winter to see if my perception holds. Are there exceptions? Of course. I'm not saying every play is as I described, though I do think it is more common than a fast dribble up the floor, especially after a made basket.

Will you at least grant my observation that traveling is very common and rarely called? That's my biggest pet peeve with the NBA.


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[smileyy]

Traveling is rarely called. I can't remember if the NBA has different travelling rules than other levels. IMO it makes a better product and I can also see how it's not to everyone's tastes.

Also Eurostep can look like a travel even when it's not.

[Juice]

I'll try watching a few games when the NBA returns this winter to see if my perception holds. Are there exceptions? Of course. I'm not saying every play is as I described, though I do think it is more common than a fast dribble up the floor, especially after a made basket.

Will you at least grant my observation that traveling is very common and rarely called? That's my biggest pet peeve with the NBA.


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You don't watch the NBA because they don't call traveling? In spite of the NBA having better players, shooters, defense, skills...literally everything over the college game, you don't watch because they don't call traveling?

I definitely watch more college basketball than the NBA, but it's not because I think the college game is better.

[bjf123]

Don't know if the rules are different, but these are pretty bad.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/08/dwyane-wade-travel-nba/#0OL.FMMOvuqV

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qExFbDuOdyE

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/11/2/9661776/thunder-player-takes-six-steps-somehow-avoids-traveling-call

https://youtu.be/oJvEwWZhZTk


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[xu82]

You don't watch the NBA because they don't call traveling? In spite of the NBA having better players, shooters, defense, skills...literally everything over the college game, you don't watch because they don't call traveling?

I definitely watch more college basketball than the NBA, but it's not because I think the college game is better.

I understand the NBA has better players. The physical abilities and the skill sets are the tip of the iceberg, the cream of the crop. But I haven't watched more than a few minutes of a regular season NBA game in almost a decade. We grew up with season tickets and I loved it... a long time ago. We used to use it as an enticement to get our boys to behave when traveling. "If you'll be good through this boring crap, we can go see Lebron play the Celtics tonight". It often worked. One night, in Charlotte, my youngest AAU playing son said to me about 3 minutes in "they're not even trying!" And he was right. We were about $800 into that night, and it was obvious to a 12 year old. The season is too long and the schedule is not well managed. The better team will win, and everyone seems to know it. So.....why bother?

And that doesn't even address the complete on the bench "resting" (as opposed to on the court). The schedule makers need to get a new plan to make this better.

[AviatorX]

Don't know if the rules are different, but these are pretty bad.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/08/dwyane-wade-travel-nba/#0OL.FMMOvuqV

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qExFbDuOdyE

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/11/2/9661776/thunder-player-takes-six-steps-somehow-avoids-traveling-call

https://youtu.be/oJvEwWZhZTk


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It would take about two minutes to put together a similar package of college teams dribbling out the shot clock trying to set up a high ball screen to get a fadeaway jumper...

I much prefer college basketball. But the NBA is a better product. Not sure there's much room for debate.