Greg Doyle Article (Lot's of comparison between BU and XU)

[Muskie]

LINK (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2017/06/10/doyel-someday-soon-butler-last-stop-great-coach/385868001/)

Butler is becoming Xavier, in other words. And not the Xavier that attracted Thad Matta in 2001. No, this Xavier is better than that one, because Xavier has done — as Butler is doing now — some serious evolution.
Xavier used to be Butler, finding great coaches and then losing them. Remember, since 2000 Butler has seen five coaches leave for something bigger (Collier, Matta, Lickliter, Stevens, Holtmann). So has Xavier. And Xavier started losing them in the 1980s.
Bob Staak left for Wake Forest in 1985, then Pete Gillen to Providence (‘94), Skip Prosser to Wake Forest (2001), Thad Matta to Ohio State (‘04) and Sean Miller to Arizona (‘09).
But look now.
Even after reaching four Sweet 16s and one Elite Eight in eight years, marketable (and still young) Chris Mack hasn’t left Xavier, and unless someone huge comes calling — I’m talking bluebloods, like Duke or UNC or Kentucky or Kansas — he’s not leaving. Put it this way: Before Chris Holtmann said yes, Chris Mack told Ohio State no. Because Xavier has become a destination.

[throwbackmuskie]

It is an interesting comparison to a degree. However Butler just lost their coach to a program worse off than themselves at the moment. Before being a BE school, I can say yeah good move. After Butler being in the BE and doing a lot better than osu of late, still reeks of stepping stone school.

[Emp]

Thanks, Muskie. I'm lazy, so I just follow the great links from many sources on this site.

What's the word on holding on to the recruiting class? They cant leave them hanging out there very long......

Woops, read all threads before posting.

[JTG]

It is an interesting comparison to a degree. However Butler just lost their coach to a program worse off than themselves at the moment. Before being a BE school, I can say yeah good move. After Butler being in the BE and doing a lot better than osu of late, still reeks of stepping stone school.

That's pretty harsh. $25 million is life changing money, and OSU has money to burn and phenomenonal resources. Butler is still near the bottom of the BE in resources and facilities.

[throwbackmuskie]

That's pretty harsh. $25 million is life changing money, and OSU has money to burn and phenomenonal resources. Butler is still near the bottom of the BE in resources and facilities.

So they are still a stepping stone school, where as Xavier at this point has turned into a destination. That is where I feel the comparison between the two when it comes to coaches is still far off.

[JTG]

I think the point of the story is, X is already at where Butler aspires to be. It seemed like a very flattering article for Xavier.

[AviatorX]

So they are still a stepping stone school, where as Xavier at this point has turned into a destination. That is where I feel the comparison between the two when it comes to coaches is still far off.

I mean, it depends on your definition of destination. There are still jobs Mack would probably leave for. No inside info here, but it's not difficult to imagine that the timing of the OSU situation and making an Elite 8 run to extend the season during IU's search worked in X's favor this cycle.

Butler is likely past the point of coaches leaving for Iowa like Lickliter did or the equivalent of early 2000's X like Matta. Roughly a similar position to X. For 99% of schools, there's always going to be a handful of schools that, absent a specific circumstance like Mark Few refusing to leave the PNW, will be tough for the coach to rebuff.

This coming from a guy who hates Butler, by the way.

[throwbackmuskie]

I get what you guys are saying, but I still think butler is still a ways off from being Xavier like.


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[XUFan09]

However Butler just lost their coach to a program worse off than themselves at the moment.

This is a common criticism of programs looking for a new coach. However, there's almost a reason that the old coach is gone. It's not like schools regularly fire coaches who have recent success and who have a good recruiting class coming in. The major question about a program generally concerns its long-term potential. In this regard, OSU has more upside than Butler and, yes, it has more upside than Xavier too. The question becomes whether that's worth the short-term losses, not to mention other personal implications (which no doubt factor greatly in Chris Mack's case).

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[XUFan09]

I get what you guys are saying, but I still think butler is still a ways off from being Xavier like.


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Butler still isn't quite at the same level, true, but in part that's helped by Xavier having a really good coach with ties to the program and the city. It makes for a highly stable situation. The article isn't far off, and it wouldn't surprise me if one more good hire does it for Butler to reach the 2017 level of Xavier in a few years. By that time, though, I expect Xavier to be on another level, so it's not like Butler will have caught up.

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[GoMuskies]

In this regard, OSU has more upside than Butler and, yes, it has more upside than Xavier too.

I think OSU has more upside that Xavier from a compensation standpoint (which is clearly very important). I don't think there's more upside from a competitive standpoint anymore, though. There's no reason Xavier can't win a national championship at this point. The barriers are gone.

It's still hard to do, though.

[XUFan09]

I think OSU has more upside that Xavier from a compensation standpoint (which is clearly very important). I don't think there's more upside from a competitive standpoint anymore, though. There's no reason Xavier can't win a national championship at this point. The barriers are gone.

It's still hard to do, though.
From a recruiting standpoint, OSU has an edge.

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[AviatorX]

I think OSU has more upside that Xavier from a compensation standpoint (which is clearly very important). I don't think there's more upside from a competitive standpoint anymore, though. There's no reason Xavier can't win a national championship at this point. The barriers are gone.

It's still hard to do, though.

OSU's recruiting is still at a higher level. Will X's recruiting get to that level in the near future? Certainly possible and arguably likely under Mack.

Even during their miserable last 3 years, they've had multiple classes with higher ranked guys than X has ever signed. They definitely bring in more top level talent, especially when Matta really had it rolling prior to his health issues.

[GoMuskies]

From a recruiting standpoint, OSU has an edge.


They don't necessarily have to anymore, though. No reason we can't go head to head with them on any recruit. That's new.

[XUOWNSUC]

I wish Xavier went to back to back championship games. Hell, I'll just take a Final Four.

[throwbackmuskie]

From a recruiting standpoint, OSU has an edge.

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Do they really though? Matta had one really super class, Conley, Oden, Lightly and Cook. I think they had some solid pick ups, but not a whole lot of wow so to speak. Maybe I am wrong, we can go back and look.

There was a post somewhere about all the Ohio kids osu could get the last few years. Imo osu is 4 or 5 when it comes to big ten hoops programs


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[AviatorX]

Do they really though? Matta had one really super class, Conley, Oden, Lightly and Cook. I think they had some solid pick ups, but not a whole lot of wow so to speak. Maybe I am wrong, we can go back and look.

There was a post somewhere about all the Ohio kids osu could get the last few years. Imo osu is 4 or 5 when it comes to big ten hoops programs


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I think you're way understating Matta's run of recruiting at OSU.

This is a list of Thad's Rivals 4/5 star (5 stars bolded) signees since 2010 when Mack took the helm at X. Granted, all of these guys worked out to varying degrees (some not at all) but if we're discussing recruiting cache of the two schools, they're still relevant.

Kaleb Wesson
Derek Funderburk
Jaquan Lyle
Austin Grandstaff
Daniel Giddens
AJ Harris
D'Angelo Russell
Jae'Sean Tate
Keita Bates-Diop
Kameron Williams
Marc Loving
Shannon Scott
LaQuinton Ross
Sam Thompson
Amir Williams
Deshaun Thomas
Jared Sullinger
Jordan Sibert

The arbitrary time period I chose here is after really high profile recruits like Mullens, Buford, Evan Turner, Jon Diebler, Kosta Koufus, and the Oden/Conley/Lighty/Cook class X unfortunately got to know too well. Pretty much all of the guys in that last sentence were ranked higher than anyone X has ever inked.

Again, not that X can't soften this gap, but it definitely exists at this point.

[xubrew]

So they are still a stepping stone school, where as Xavier at this point has turned into a destination. That is where I feel the comparison between the two when it comes to coaches is still far off.

Xavier is perhaps a destination for Chris Mack. Just because he has decided to stay doesn't mean that all coaches would decide to stay just because he did. Had Chris Holtmann been at Xavier, he would have still left for Ohio State. He likes money. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but I'm quite certain he would have left.

People want different things. Is Pitt a stepping stone school and TCU a destination school?? Probably not for most people, but it was for Jamie Dixon.

[OH.X.MI]

I wish Xavier went to back to back championship games. Hell, I'll just take a Final Four.

I'd take two championship games in my lifetime over coaching stability any day of the week.

[throwbackmuskie]

Well I will admit my mistake. Looking back osu has recruited well. Guess with some of those highly ranked classes I expected better results, two final fours, 1 elite 8. Yes two final fours are more than X, but would expect more Elite 8s I guess. Then again I don't follow osu, like I said I see them as the 4 or 5 best team

[Chalmers0]

I get what you guys are saying, but I still think butler is still a ways off from being Xavier like.


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Yup, and I get the impression this is how the Athletic Department and a large segment of their fans want it to be.

They seem to want to continue to operate like a Horizon League/A10 program in the Big East.

I've said since day one of the Big East if they didn't adapt it would eventually bite them. It almost did with the Brandon Miller fiasco but Holtmann bailed them out. We will see what happens with Jordan and whatever staff he assembles.

[xudash]

I wish Xavier went to back to back championship games. Hell, I'll just take a Final Four.

NCAA Tournament success is a big factor in how programs are perceived.

How program are actually structured and how they operate can be a different matter.

Butler caught lightening with Stevens and was the Little Engine that could out of the Horizon League to make it to both of those games. Good for them.

But it's this simple, and I don't have blue/silver glasses on: I wouldn't trade Xavier's place with Butler's place in all this for anything.

[Muskie]

Yup, and I get the impression this is how the Athletic Department and a large segment of their fans want it to be.

They seem to want to continue to operate like a Horizon League/A10 program in the Big East.

I've said since day one of the Big East if they didn't adapt it would eventually bite them. It almost did with the Brandon Miller fiasco but Holtmann bailed them out. We will see what happens with Jordan and whatever staff he assembles.

Lifelong Indiana resident (except for X). Hinkle Fieldhouse holds a special place in my heart. I've watched numerous High School Basketball games there growing up. It's a historic landmark, which Indianapolis treasures. Butler has incredible memories there. All that to say. The day is coming where Butler will need to make a change to an on-campus arena that is updated with suites, more concessions, different seating options. Maybe there is some way they can still use Hinkle with the program. But the day is fast approaching where they will have to make that decision. If they wish to remain competitive in this conference, those are the the kinds of choices that will need to be made.

[OH.X.MI]

NCAA Tournament success is a big factor in how programs are perceived.

How program are actually structured and how they operate can be a different matter.

Butler caught lightening with Stevens and was the Little Engine that could out of the Horizon League to make it to both of those games. Good for them.

But it's this simple, and I don't have blue/silver glasses on: I wouldn't trade Xavier's place with Butler's place in all this for anything.

Butler hardly fell into obscurity after Stevens left. They are still a very strong program. X has been to one more sweet sixteen since Stevens left and one elite eight. I really don't know how anyone can say Butler hasn't had far more success then X in the last 7 years. Maybe they will fall off with Jordan, but I doubt it. I like Mack a lot, but I don't care about a coach staying or going nearly as much as I care about seeing a final four banner hanging in Cintas.

[xudash]

Butler hardly fell into obscurity after Stevens left. They are still a very strong program. X has been to one more sweet sixteen since Stevens left and one elite eight. I really don't know how anyone can say Butler hasn't had far more success then X in the last 7 years. Maybe they will fall off with Jordan, but I doubt it. I like Mack a lot, but I don't care about a coach staying or going nearly as much as I care about seeing a final four banner hanging in Cintas.

You did not comprehend my point.

Can Butler generate as much or more revenue from basketball than Xavier? I'll save you the trouble: the answer is no.

I'm focused on overall program components. Not just specific performance in the NCAA tournament.

I agree that Butler is a strong program, otherwise it would not be in the Big East. It just is not as strong as Xavier's program.

[smileyy]

I'm not sure I'd call Xavier a destination school for anyone but Mack. He had 3 ties to the school before taking the job: Ex-player, assistant to former coach (Prosser) and assistant at the school

[JEHARDI]

Butler hardly fell into obscurity after Stevens left. They are still a very strong program. X has been to one more sweet sixteen since Stevens left and one elite eight. I really don't know how anyone can say Butler hasn't had far more success then X in the last 7 years. Maybe they will fall off with Jordan, but I doubt it. I like Mack a lot, but I don't care about a coach staying or going nearly as much as I care about seeing a final four banner hanging in Cintas.

Keeping Mack gives X the best opportunity to finally hang a FF banner. Coaching continuity is key to the programs that get there.

[LA Muskie]

I get what you guys are saying, but I still think butler is still a ways off from being Xavier like.
Well, except of course for the TWO consecutive championship games. So, you know, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves...

[xu82]

We are way ahead of Butler (we kept our coach again), but they are way ahead of us (going to championship games). Life can be funny.

It sucks to lose coaches you want to keep. I feel for them, truly. Good luck going forward, except against X.

[throwbackmuskie]

Well, except of course for the TWO consecutive championship games. So, you know, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves...

Yeah those were great for them, but that is not the end all be all.

But lets be honest, overall as a program Xavier is head and shoulders above them. Since 1980, More conference titles, more Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, NCAA appearances, all while doing it in a tougher conference. Not to mention the overall head to head series lead.

Butler caught lightning in a bottle two years in a row, I applaud them for that.

[kyxu]

Yeah those were great for them, but that is not the end all be all.

But lets be honest, overall as a program Xavier is head and shoulders above them. Since 1980, More conference titles, more Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, NCAA appearances, all while doing it in a tougher conference. Not to mention the overall head to head series lead.

Butler caught lightning in a bottle two years in a row, I applaud them for that.

I'd love to catch that lightning. I am embarrassed to say what I would do for Xavier to make ONE Final Four, let alone two consecutive NCG appearances.

[throwbackmuskie]

I'd love to catch that lightning. I am embarrassed to say what I would do for Xavier to make ONE Final Four, let alone two consecutive NCG appearances.

No on is saying that, but those Finals Fours do not make a consistent program. Where is George Mason? Where does Okla St rank? I am not saying I don't want a Final Four or two, but just because one has been, doesn't make them better than some programs.

[kyxu]

No on is saying that, but those Finals Fours do not make a consistent program. Where is George Mason? Where does Okla St rank? I am not saying I don't want a Final Four or two, but just because one has been, doesn't make them better than some programs.

I made no comment either way as to what Butler's Final Fours mean. Just saying I would do indescribable things for Xavier to make just one.

[JTG]

Look at it this way: Does Butler have Cintas ? No. Does Butler recruit nationally ? By and large No. Do they have a practice gym ? No, Is a lot of their winning with smoke and mirrors ? Yes.
Is Butler always sold out ? No. They just do everything in a low budget manner. It's like someone else said, they want to run a Big East program, as though they were in the Horizon. Yes they've been to 2 FFs, but the program itself is middle of the road.

[sirthought]

No on is saying that, but those Finals Fours do not make a consistent program. Where is George Mason? Where does Okla St rank? I am not saying I don't want a Final Four or two, but just because one has been, doesn't make them better than some programs.

Dude you are so off base with this thinking. On a national scale, you know how much better known the programs at Butler and George Mason are due to those appearances? Despite Xavier's stellar performance over time, it is still a school that most college basketball fans don't even know where it is or what it's story is.

Does this mean those programs have surpassed Xavier. No. But it does mean their profile has reached a status that Xavier hasn't and that counts for a lot amongst more general college basketball observers.

[GoMuskies]

Dude you are so off base with this thinking. On a national scale, you know how much better know the programs at Butler and George Mason are due to those appearances? Despite Xavier's stellar performance over time, it is still a school that most college basketball fans don't even know where it is or what it's story is.

I can see Butler. Kind of. But George Mason?!? Get out of here with that.

[sirthought]

They might not be super well known, but when someone says George Mason, they remember that team. When they say Xavier, a blank look and wondering how to pronounce it comes into their head.

[94GRAD]

They might not be super well known, but when someone says George Mason, they remember that team. When they say Xavier, a blank look and wondering how to pronounce it comes into their head.

You obviuosly don't travel very much or don't wear X gear when traveling. Whenever I leave town and am wearig X gear, people come up to me and say nice little basketball program you have.

[AviatorX]

I can see Butler. Kind of. But George Mason?!? Get out of here with that.

I think people are way overstating the gulf between X and Butler (I think X is slightly better, but Butler is as close of a peer as there is for X), but totally with you here.

Casual fans have about a 1% chance of even being able to tell you what conference George Mason is in.

[xubrew]

Before the Final Four appearance, George Mason had never won an NCAA Tournament game, and I think they've only won one game since then. When Larranaga left it was over.

You can't even compare them to Butler. Here is why. Let's just suppose that Butler had lost to Murray State in 2010 (which they almost did), and Pittsburgh in 2011 (which they almost did). Neither championship run ever happens. Even without that they would still be a hugely accomplished program. It's not as if Butler came out of nowhere. They were far more relevant before that first national title run than Creighton currently is. In 2007 they spent the entire season ranked in the top 25, made it to the Sweet Sixteen, and came closer to beating Florida than any team did in the 2006 or 2007 NCAA Tournaments. In 2008 they spent the entire season in the rankings again, and lost in overtime in the Round of 32. Those two years alone are infinitely more than George Mason ever did outside the Final Four, and more than what Creighton has done in their entire history. So, when people say Butler came out of nowhere and caught lightning in a bottle, they didn't. If Creighton were to make the Final Four no one would be saying that, so why do they say that about Butler? They had done quite a bit, and were regulars in the Top 25, prior to that run ever happening.

[Xavier]

They might not be super well known, but when someone says George Mason, they remember that team. When they say Xavier, a blank look and wondering how to pronounce it comes into their head.

Troll?