Yes it's OK to hire coaches aligned with recruits.

[Muskie]

Link (http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/yes-its-ok-to-hire-people-tied-to-recruits-and-more-mid-majors-should-be-doing-it/)

Naturally, this development once again led to a debate on social media about whether it should be OK for a school to employ a parent or guardian or coach (or anybody) strictly for the purposes of securing a commitment from a player or two -- as if this kind of thing hasn't been going on for decades. Either way, my opinion remains consistent: Of course it's OK.
It's OK and mostly smart.
_____

[GoMuskies]

It's only going to be okay once Xavier does it. Until then, SHADY!!!

[LA Muskie]

I don't like it. I think it erodes the notion of amateurism -- once again, someone or something else (the NCAA, the school, the program, the family member/coach/family friend) is disproportionately profiting off the kid. But if it's allowed (and it is), then I don't see a problem living by the rules in place so long as it doesn't alter the fabric and culture of the program (about which I still would have concerns).

[xubrew]

I think it would be hard to come up with a rule where the unintended consequences and those that it's not intended to impact don't far outweigh those that it is intended to impact. It's my understanding that they have looked at this, and to their credit they've decided that there isn't really a good way to legislate it, so they haven't.

[drudy23]

I think it erodes the notion of amateurism.

What doesn't? You must really hate college sports then.

[Smooth]

I think it would be hard to come up with a rule where the unintended consequences and those that it's not intended to impact don't far outweigh those that it is intended to impact. It's my understanding that they have looked at this, and to their credit they've decided that there isn't really a good way to legislate it, so they haven't.

Your post made my head hurt. Here is what I think that you thought that you meant: If you don't know how to fix it, leave it broke.

Even if I was wrong about what I thought you were thinking, I still think I believe what I thought you thought.

[Juice]

Obviously schools hire those connected to good players to secure their commitment and it's kind of shady. But legislating it would be hard, because what do you do when a legitimate circumstance like the McDermotts pops up?

[muskiefan82]

Obviously schools hire those connected to good players to secure their commitment and it's kind of shady. But legislating it would be hard, because what do you do when a legitimate circumstance like the McDermotts pops up?

Or the Acres kids back in the old MCC days.

[MuskieXU]

I have no issue with schools that do this, but I dont really think its worthwhile the majority of the time. I've yet to see a single player turn around a program or make such a significant difference that it'd be worth it to hire his dad/uncle/coach to get him. I would even go so far as to say that recruiting 5 stars is counterproductive if you dont have a plan as to how you're surrounding him with sufficient talent. Ask Jones, Gottfried, Romar, Rice, Smart, Crean, etc how recruiting these players worked out for them

[xubrew]

Your post made my head hurt. Here is what I think that you thought that you meant: If you don't know how to fix it, leave it broke.

Even if I was wrong about what I thought you were thinking, I still think I believe what I thought you thought.

Or if every time you try and fix it you end up making it worse, then leave it the way it is.

[joe titan]

I have no issue with schools that do this, but I dont really think its worthwhile the majority of the time. I've yet to see a single player turn around a program or make such a significant difference that it'd be worth it to hire his dad/uncle/coach to get him. I would even go so far as to say that recruiting 5 stars is counterproductive if you dont have a plan as to how you're surrounding him with sufficient talent. Ask Jones, Gottfried, Romar, Rice, Smart, Crean, etc how recruiting these players worked out for them

I do concur that most of the time the results are less than noteworthy. But Danny Manning/Ed Manning at Kansas would illustrate how it does work.

[MuskieXU]

I do concur that most of the time the results are less than noteworthy. But Danny Manning/Ed Manning at Kansas would illustrate how it does work.

That was back when even the best recruit in America stayed for 4 years, and Manning won the title as a Senior. These days you are giving up a spot on your staff for one or two years of a player. However, I will agree that it can work. Isiah Whitehead is an example of it working, although he only took Seton Hall from average to slightly above average. There are also examples of it blowing up in your face like Memphis this year. It's not something I would want Xavier to do or can see them ever doing. But I dont care if other schools want to do it, just don't expect it to change the program.

[STL_XUfan]

I've become strangely ok with this process recently :wink: ��

[sirthought]

I have no issue with schools that do this, but I dont really think its worthwhile the majority of the time. I've yet to see a single player turn around a program or make such a significant difference that it'd be worth it to hire his dad/uncle/coach to get him. I would even go so far as to say that recruiting 5 stars is counterproductive if you dont have a plan as to how you're surrounding him with sufficient talent. Ask Jones, Gottfried, Romar, Rice, Smart, Crean, etc how recruiting these players worked out for them

Without thinking about it too much:
- Kansas State when Huggins hired Frank Martin for Michael Beasley and Bill Walker. They immediately turned that program's status around within two or three years.
- Dajaun Wagner and Milt Wagner hired at Memphis State. He only stayed one year, but that really helped Coach Cal recruit bigger players.

[casualfan]

I am fine with schools doing this.

I am even more fine with people raking them over the coals when it doesn't work.

And in most cases it doesn't.

LSU hired a guy related to Simmons. Dumpster fire.

Memphis hired the Lawson brother's dad. Dumpster fire.

Washington hired Michael Porter Jr.'s dad. That turned into a dumpster fire before he ever even got there.

Seton Hall hired Isaiah Washington's HS coach Tiny Morton. The team is still fine (although if I'm hiring a dude to get one kid the kid would have to be a hell of a lot better than Whithead), but that situation turned ugly and ended with him resigning.

Baylor hired John Wall's AAU coach. Wall didn't even go there.

Ben Howland hired an AAU coach to get Jordan Adams and Shaq Goodwin. They got Adams, but Goodwin went to Memphis. They missed the tourney in 2012 and in 2013 got knocked out in the first round. Howland was fired shortly thereafter.

The only instance I can recall where a relative/coach was hired to land a player where it worked out was Dajuan Wagner at Memphis.

There may be others, but I can't really recall any.

[paulxu]

Xavier hired Luke Murray so we could have Bill on the sideline.

Does that count?

[GoMuskies]

Without thinking about it too much:
- Kansas State when Huggins hired Frank Martin for Michael Beasley and Bill Walker. They immediately turned that program's status around within two or three years.
- Dajaun Wagner and Milt Wagner hired at Memphis State. He only stayed one year, but that really helped Coach Cal recruit bigger players.

Beasley's one K-State team kinda sucked. I think Xavier beat them by about 100 points (I was pretty drunk, but that sounds right). Wagner was a nice player at Memphis, but he didn't turn the program around. And him being at Memphis didn't have anything to do with Cal's ability to recruit the players on his better teams. Calipari can just recruit, period.

I don't really see either of those two as success stories. (Also, it was Dalonte Hill that Huggy Bear hired to get Beasley.)

[GoMuskies]

Speaking of Dalonte Hill, what a trainwreck he made of his life. Three drunken driving arrests took him from highest paid assistant coach in college basketball to spending 60 days in jail, out of college basketball and slumming it on the AAU circuit. Hopefully he's stopped hanging out with Tardy Turtle.

[XUMIOH12]

Wagner was a nice player at Memphis, but he didn't turn the program around. And him being at Memphis didn't have anything to do with Cal's ability to recruit the players on his better teams. Calipari can just recruit, period.

Yeah Wagner just happened to be one of the first big players he got. Calipari was going to do his thing regardless.

[XUMIOH12]

Detroit hiring Ray McCallum Sr. worked out well for a few years (mostly while McCallum Jr. was there). Not sure if that counts though, since McCallum was already an actual coach beforehand.

The results were good, but a couple of his teams massively underachieved.

[paulxu]

Hopefully he's stopped hanging out with Tardy Turtle.

He had no choice.

(see Tardy Turtle's Bail Bonds Thread)

[Emp]

It's wrong. Let me count the ways.

The adult delivers a student athlete to the purchasing school in return for a fee. That's what we're talking about.

Not in the student athlete's best interests as a student and as a player. You had to bring your coach/ dad along?? Who brings his coach/ dad to college? Ever?
Possible answers: well. I kinda owed it to him?

Essentially the coach/ dad substitutes his judgment and his employment for the right team/ coach/school for the athlete/son. The son/athlete is robbed of his own choice. Total conflict of interest for coach/dad.

Not to mention the school and team. It's paying prettied up blackmail. . It's compensation other than the allowable (and with good reason) scholarship benefits.

It replaces merit selection of assistant coaches with a bizarre reverse legacy admission, where the benefit passes up to the father, not down to the son: your player/son enrolls, we admit YOU as a full time employee, despite no evidence you are qualified other than your relationship to the student.

I know, The NCAA exploits student athletes. What's the big deal, just another exploitation of an individual athlete by a person in a position of trust?

It doesn't pass any smell test. It stinks.

NEXT: coach/dad presents recruiting schools with a copy of his personal services contract with the athlete.

[ammtd34]

I don't have a problem with it. I don't really see a difference between hiring an assistant coach who has connections in a certain geographic area (like Steele in Indiana) vs. one whose connection is that they live with the kid.

[STL_XUfan]

It's wrong. Let me count the ways.

The adult delivers a student athlete to the purchasing school in return for a fee. That's what we're talking about.

Not in the student athlete's best interests as a student and as a player. You had to bring your coach/ dad along?? Who brings his coach/ dad to college? Ever?
Possible answers: well. I kinda owed it to him?

Essentially the coach/ dad substitutes his judgment and his employment for the right team/ coach/school for the athlete/son. The son/athlete is robbed of his own choice. Total conflict of interest for coach/dad.

Not to mention the school and team. It's paying prettied up blackmail. . It's compensation other than the allowable (and with good reason) scholarship benefits.

It replaces merit selection of assistant coaches with a bizarre reverse legacy admission, where the benefit passes up to the father, not down to the son: your player/son enrolls, we admit YOU as a full time employee, despite no evidence you are qualified other than your relationship to the student.

I know, The NCAA exploits student athletes. What's the big deal, just another exploitation of an individual athlete by a person in a position of trust?

It doesn't pass any smell test. It stinks.

NEXT: coach/dad presents recruiting schools with a copy of his personal services contract with the athlete.

How would you write legislation to stop it? Simply say that NCAA athletes can't go to a college where their parent coaches? Is this only for basketball or does this apply to the non-revenue sports also? Does it have to be the same sport or would it apply to a basketball player whose father is the head volleyball coach?

Seems like the unintended consequences would far outweigh the benefit of trying to solve a very rare problem.

[LA Muskie]

I don't have a problem with it. I don't really see a difference between hiring an assistant coach who has connections in a certain geographic area (like Steele in Indiana) vs. one whose connection is that they live with the kid.

Funny, I see it the other way. I don't see a difference between hiring dad/coach and dad/coach demanding a check for the kid to go to that school.

I agree there's no easy way to legislate it. Doesn't make it right though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AviatorX]

A lot of the examples of this in the past involve dads/connections that are at least marginally connected to basketball. It's a rare thing to start with, and even less common is a team is bringing in some schmuck off the street to be an assistant coach/director of basketball ops/whatever.

In DePaul's case, they are bringing on a guy with substantial head coaching experience at one of the top prep programs in country. There are probably some years where LaLu had more D1 players than DePaul. This is a normal progression of a basketball coaching career and it certainly helps that he's aligned with some really good players.

Major AAU programs/prep schools seem like a great place to get new assistants to me. Probably one of the most common after poaching up and comers from smaller schools.

[MuskieXU]

In a perfect world no one would cheat, but at least the schools doing this are being transparent and using an assistant coaching spot, which you dont get many of. It's a better alternative than a parent demanding cash from an agent or shoe company, which you better believe happens all the time.

[joe titan]

Detroit hiring Ray McCallum Sr. worked out well for a few years (mostly while McCallum Jr. was there). Not sure if that counts though, since McCallum was already an actual coach beforehand.

The results were good, but a couple of his teams massively underachieved.

Coach Ray was hired couple years ahead of Ray jr playing and Ray jr was still heavily recruited by other schools as McD AA. Along with Holiman who left IU with who Coach Ray had known, the Titans made post season appearances. But Coach Ray was hired more b/c he offered the Titans best option when they needed a new coach.