Ominous future

[JTG]

1 player on All BE first team, none on 2nd, none on honorable mention, and none on all freshman team.
Not the most encouraging future for X. Hope some of the new blood is ready to go, or next year could be a bummer.

[SemajParlor]

I have a hunch we'll be ok.

[AviatorX]

This is how we measure the future now?

Stanley Burrell would probably not approve of this method.

[muskiefan82]

Here is what I see:

I see a team that lost two interior players (one early) and then suspended a senior point guard and played down from the beginning. They were then forced to restructure on the fly and THEN lost their best player (arguably) to an ACL and their other best player to an ankle for a substantial part of the year which forced the players into even more different roles YET, they have 19 wins and a real shot at making the dance.

These circumstances 10 years ago result in a lost season with 19 losses instead of wins. Instead, this lost season might still end in the NCAA Tournament. X is not the best in the Big East this year, but they are still better than a great number of teams out there.

I'll take the mess of this season and where they are headed over where this was when it started in the 80's every day of the week.

[XU 87]

1 player on All BE first team, none on 2nd, none on honorable mention, and none on all freshman team.
Not the most encouraging future for X. Hope some of the new blood is ready to go, or next year could be a bummer.

X has two top 50 players, among a few other good players, coming in next year.

X also should have four returning starters.

[xufan2434]

1 player on All BE first team, none on 2nd, none on honorable mention, and none on all freshman team.
Not the most encouraging future for X. Hope some of the new blood is ready to go, or next year could be a bummer.

I don't know who else you expected to make the list. My guess is JP might have made the Honorable Mention had his percentages been better. But due to injuries and him kind of having to force things, his numbers weren't that great. Depending on who all decides to come back next year, they could definitely have guys on the preseason teams. I expect Scruggs to be on the preseason freshmen team. If Ed and Tre are both gone next year, then yes I expect some bumps along the way. I'll take a rocky but exciting year next year due to youth and inexperience over one with all kinds of promise railroaded by injuries and off the court issues

[markchal]

While this season is certainly a disappointment independent of injuries, I do think we have some very quality pieces coming in. Granted, we don't return much if Tre/Ed leave, so next year probably will be rough (next year we might have to worry about our conference .500 streak), the years after should be somewhat better if Mack can continue to stock the program with quality players (that stick around for awhile).

[casualfan]

I don't think this is a big deal given what we have coming in.

I mean the way the roster is balanced and the need for a big class coming in next year sucks as it might lead to a rough year next year, but long term I think we'll be fine.

The one potential issue I see is what might happen if Mack were to leave after this year.

If that were to happen I am sure a few of those guys in this upcoming class would open things up.

Given the importance of this class to get the program back on track that would be no bueno.

Other than that I think we will be fine long term even if it means next year as a little rough.

[chico]

We play in a really good conference.

[KFX]

Anybody have any reason to believe that Mack may be unsettled at Xavier? I would hate for him to leave.

[Muskie]

Anybody have any reason to believe that Mack may be unsettled at Xavier? I would hate for him to leave. None other than the general musings that he may be candidates for other openings.

[Juice]

Anybody have any reason to believe that Mack may be unsettled at Xavier? I would hate for him to leave.

I wouldn't describe it as unsettled, but if the IU job opens up he will be on their list.

[AviatorX]

Anybody have any reason to believe that Mack may be unsettled at Xavier? I would hate for him to leave.

Concern at this point is that IU, OSU, and to a lesser extent U of L appear they will be going through searches soon.

Edit: Not necessarily this year for OSU or U of L, but a general "soon." IU will be open within a week.

[casualfan]

Concern at this point is that IU, OSU, and to a lesser extent U of L appear they will be going through searches soon.

That coupled with the fact that with a few exceptions (i.e. Nova and Marquette) Big East schools are not in the upper echelon when it comes to coach salary.

I'm not sure Chris would leave for a job like NC State, but that is the reason you continue to see guys like him and Holtman mentioned for those type of jobs.

[Xavier]

NC State? No way. I don't think he'd leave for OSU, either. Indiana I could def see but don't think he is near the top of the list either.

In regard to overall thread, X has one of its best recruiting classes coming in next year

[XMuskieFTW]

Nah we're good.

[xu82]

Here is what I see:

I see a team that lost two interior players (one early) and then suspended a senior point guard and played down from the beginning. They were then forced to restructure on the fly and THEN lost their best player (arguably) to an ACL and their other best player to an ankle for a substantial part of the year which forced the players into even more different roles YET, they have 19 wins and a real shot at making the dance.

These circumstances 10 years ago result in a lost season with 19 losses instead of wins. Instead, this lost season might still end in the NCAA Tournament. X is not the best in the Big East this year, but they are still better than a great number of teams out there.

I'll take the mess of this season and where they are headed over where this was when it started in the 80's every day of the week.


What he said...

Looking forward to next year's class!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I don't see Mack leaving for anything other than IU next year especially with this class coming in. The future is bright for the team. In the future, I could see IU (if Crean somehow stays) and Louisville drawing interest.

[XUGRAD80]

The all freshman team is mainly guards....I think that Ty Jones is one of the better bigs in the league and has tremendous upside. JP was 6th man of the year last year, and he will be back. I really think that Summers will be back and could have a great 2nd half of the year. Bluiett's future will depend on how this year finishes out. Being named all- league (even 2x) doesn't really impress the pro scouts all that much, so who knows if he comes back or not. Goodin has shown ability to run the team, can he learn how to shoot? Next year may well be a rebuilding year, but it sounds like there are some quality pieces with which to rebuild with coming back, and being added to the mix.

[casualfan]

No one thought he would seriously consider the Cal job either, but that almost happened.

I'm just saying that as time goes on and teams continue to shell out 3 or 4 million for a coach he's going to continue to come up and depending on how things shake out with who does and doesn't come out he may decide to get out while the gettin is good.

[chico]

No one thought he would seriously consider the Cal job either, but that almost happened.

I'm just saying that as time goes on and teams continue to shell out 3 or 4 million for a coach he's going to continue to come up and depending on how things shake out with who does and doesn't come out he may decide to get out while the gettin is good.

So none of this new money Xavier is apparently bringing in with the Cintas reconfiguration is going to Mack?

[XU 87]

Bluiett's future will depend on how this year finishes out. Being named all- league (even 2x) doesn't really impress the pro scouts all that much, so who knows if he comes back or not.

That may not impress the NBA scouts, but it might impress some higher paying European teams.

[xu82]

I'd worry more about losing our coach when he has a great season (improving his stock and making him a hot name) and he doesn't have an exciting new class coming in. But I'm always at least a little worried.

[xufan2434]

I can't see Mack leaving unless a true Blue Blood comes knocking. And I don't really see that happening any time soon. He's a Xavier guy, he's from here, and his family is really set up well in the community. They love it here. And X pretty much gives him all the control he wants. Has access to a private plane and they've shown over and over again their committed to giving him what he needs to make this an elite program.

He's not going to leave all that for NC State or some other mid level Power Conference team. IU would be intriguing, but I don't know if he would stay in the Tri-State area. I think it would be hard for him to stay close to Cincinnati and be somewhere other than X. Just my opinion

[casualfan]

So none of this new money Xavier is apparently bringing in with the Cintas reconfiguration is going to Mack?

I havent seen any type of extension announced. Maybe i missed it.

Heres the most recent salary data I can find:

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

[mid major]

I havent seen any type of extension announced. Maybe i missed it.

Heres the most recent salary data I can find:

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

I didn't see JT III's salary on the list but I read somewhere he's plucking around 2M just under Jay Wright's figure.

[AviatorX]

I can't see Mack leaving unless a true Blue Blood comes knocking. And I don't really see that happening any time soon. He's a Xavier guy, he's from here, and his family is really set up well in the community. They love it here. And X pretty much gives him all the control he wants. Has access to a private plane and they've shown over and over again their committed to giving him what he needs to make this an elite program.

He's not going to leave all that for NC State or some other mid level Power Conference team. IU would be intriguing, but I don't know if he would stay in the Tri-State area. I think it would be hard for him to stay close to Cincinnati and be somewhere other than X. Just my opinion

Really? I think the exact opposite. If a powerhouse job opened AND it was in the tri-state, that's a win win.

I agree that there's a small list of schools Mack would make the jump to, my concern is that a number of those are coming up in the nearish future and they happen to be in this area.

[casualfan]

I didn't see JT III's salary on the list but I read somewhere he's plucking around 2M just under Jay Wright's figure.


Its a list of the salaries of coaches for teams that were in the tourney last year.

Thus no JT3.

[X Factor]

No way that's right...Archie Miller at Dayton is making upwards of 2 mil a year. He makes more than Mack no doubt.

[GIMMFD]

Really? I think the exact opposite. If a powerhouse job opened AND it was in the tri-state, that's a win win.

I agree that there's a small list of schools Mack would make the jump to, my concern is that a number of those are coming up in the nearish future and they happen to be in this area.

Pretty much the bigs ones already discussed, IU, U of L, etc. I don't really see him jumping anywhere else. I definitely agree he's not going to leave for NC State or something like that.

[xavierj]

No way that's right...Archie Miller at Dayton is making upwards of 2 mil a year. He makes more than Mack no doubt.

According to Xavier's tax return from 2014, Mack was paid almost $1.5 million, he made about $1.2 in 2013. According to Dayton's, Archie was a little less. I would imagine both are making more now. Chris is in a great situation and his comp will continue to be evaluated and bumped, I would imagine each year.!

[Juice]

According to Xavier's tax return from 2014, Mack was paid almost $1.5 million, he made about $1.2 in 2013. According to Dayton's, Archie was a little less. I would imagine both are making more now. Chris is in a great situation and his comp will continue to be evaluated and bumped, I would imagine each year.!

Archie makes more.

[D-West & PO-Z]

He refuses to actually live IN (or near) Dayton so they have to pay him mileage. Thats the difference.

[xavierj]

Archie makes more.

He might but that's not the point. If Chris made nearly 1.5 in 2014, there is a good chance he is making much more than that in 2017. He is doing fine regardless and is in his back yard. Would he jump, he may, but it will be more than just money if he does. He has a bunch of positives in his current situation.

[Juice]

He might but that's not the point. If Chris made nearly 1.5 in 2014, there is a good chance he is making much more than that in 2017. He is doing fine regardless and is in his back yard. Would he jump, he may, but it will be more than just money if he does. He has a bunch of positives in his current situation.

But it also shows that Mack makes less than Archie and Mick. That's a problem if X wants to keep attracting good coaches.

[chico]

I havent seen any type of extension announced. Maybe i missed it.

Heres the most recent salary data I can find:

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

They haven't announced an extension. But with the cash they're looking to bring, need to use some on Mack if they want to keep him.

[xavierj]

But it also shows that Mack makes less than Archie and Mick. That's a problem if X wants to keep attracting good coaches.

How much does Archie make and where did you see it? I know Mick makes more and he works for a public school 10 times the size of Xavier. UC also over pays their coaches. They are dumb.

[Juice]

How much does Archie make and where did you see it? I know Mick makes more and he works for a public school 10 times the size of Xavier. UC also over pays their coaches. They are dumb.

Ok to add to this, XU isn't in the top half of the Big East in compensation for its coaches.

[AviatorX]

How much does Archie make and where did you see it? I know Mick makes more and he works for a public school 10 times the size of Xavier. UC also over pays their coaches. They are dumb.

I think it's pretty well accepted that XU doesn't pay Mack and the assistants (especially the assistants) close to the same as the programs we'd like to consider peers.

[Irishjohn68]

Concern at this point is that IU, OSU, and to a lesser extent U of L appear they will be going through searches soon.

Edit: Not necessarily this year for OSU or U of L, but a general "soon." IU will be open within a week.

If the Indiana job opens up I would look for Brad Stevens to be at the top of their list of coaches.

[xavierj]

If the Indiana job opens up I would look for Brad Stevens to be at the top of their list of coaches.

Good luck to IU with that...

[Juice]

If the Indiana job opens up I would look for Brad Stevens to be at the top of their list of coaches.

But don't expect IU to be at the top of Stevens' list of jobs.

[xavierj]

I think it's pretty well accepted that XU doesn't pay Mack and the assistants (especially the assistants) close to the same as the programs we'd like to consider peers.

I have no idea. What is that? Chris Mack is paid well and his assistants are making more now than ever. Xavier has probably the lowest endowment in the league. They have consistently raised the coaches salaries and made improvements to the university and athletic facilities. Maybe they are just being smart. It sounds like about 80% of the league is over paying its coaches.

[AviatorX]

I have no idea. What is that? Chris Mack is paid well and his assistants are making more now than ever. Xavier has probably the lowest endowment in the league. They have consistently raised the coaches salaries and made improvements to the university and athletic facilities. Maybe they are just being smart. It sounds like about 80% of the league is over paying its coaches.

All of that may be true and it's a fair way to look at things. Take out the under or over paid description and there's reason to be concerned from the standpoint of "can XU keep Chris Mack?" that Xavier pays less than many (most?) jobs at equal or slightly lesser programs. It's a part of the equation in the difference between "best jobs" and "best programs."

[xavierj]

All of that may definitely be true and it's a fair way to look at things. But still, take out the under or over paying description and there's reason to be concerned from the standpoint of "can XU keep Chris Mack?" that Xavier pays less than many (most?) jobs at equal or slightly lesser programs.

Mark Few makes about $1.4 a year, Mike Bray is around $1.7, Chris was around $1.5 in 2014. How does Norte Dame and Gonzaga not lose their coaches?

[AviatorX]

Mark Few makes about $1.4 a year, Mike Bray is around $1.7, Chris was around $1.5 in 2014. How does Norte Dame and Gonzaga not lose their coaches?

Well, first I think there's sometimes a significant difference between what's reported and what they actually make, especially at a couple of private schools.

Obviously this is going to sound like I'm dodging, but you picked two examples that are often discussed as unique situations where the guy is just really really happy there. Brey has a good thing going being second fiddle (low pressure) at ND and staying low key while winning a decent amount and Few LOVES the Pacific Northwest by all reports. Those guys haven't even listened on jobs, which isn't the case with Mack (see Cal and Wake Forest).

To be clear, I think there are a LOT of soft factors at Xavier that Mack must like, I mean he's going on a decade at the job. If he wanted to leave just to make more money he could have done so many times by now.

[drudy23]

Plus his $1.5M per goes a long way in Cincy.

[xavierj]

Well, first I think there's sometimes a significant difference between what's reported and what they actually make, especially at a couple of private schools.

Obviously this is going to sound like I'm dodging, but you picked two examples that are often discussed as unique situations where the guy is just really really happy there. Brey has a good thing going being second fiddle (low pressure) at ND and staying low key while winning a decent amount and Few LOVES the Pacific Northwest by all reports. Those guys haven't even listened on jobs, which isn't the case with Mack (see Cal and Wake Forest).

To be clear, I think there are a LOT of soft factors at Xavier that Mack must like, I mean he's going on a decade at the job. If he wanted to leave just to make more money he could have done so many times by now.

I agree private schools don't always list everything. And for the record I never thought Chris would leave for Cal and I don't think he ever even spoke to wake. Just like Mick Cronin was never taking the UNLV job. We will see what happens. I think there are only a few jobs he would take and to be honest are the top programs of all time really going to pull the trigger on him?

[Olsingledigit]

Anybody have any reason to believe that Mack may be unsettled at Xavier? I would hate for him to leave.

Even though Crean has not yet been dismissed at Indiana, Mack shows up on the short list being circulated. Also, rumor has it he might go for the right price and opportunity. Indiana and Louisville would be ideal because of the location close to Cincinnati. Rumors that Pitino might be hanging it up. Christi Mack is from Louisville.

All of this is wild speculation on my part of course.

[Olsingledigit]

But don't expect IU to be at the top of Stevens' list of jobs.

Stevens has no list of jobs. He is doing fine with the �� Celtics. 6 year deal worth $30 million I think.

[AviatorX]

I agree private schools don't always list everything. And for the record I never thought Chris would leave for Cal and I don't think he ever even spoke to wake. Just like Mick Cronin was never taking the UNLV job. We will see what happens. I think there are only a few jobs he would take and to be honest are the top programs of all time really going to pull the trigger on him?

I agree it seems like it's at that point for Mack. He's not going to leave for NC St. or the like.

Will be interesting to see how the IU, OSU, and U of L situations play out. If Archie were to go to IU this offseason and OSU didn't open up, I would imagine OSU would zero in on Mack when it comes time. Would he go? I lean yes, but I don't think it's as easy a bet as IU or UL. Obviously it looks like those jobs timeline wise will be IU, OSU, UL. If Archie is still on the market after IU is filled, it's more open. A lot of speculation out there that Archie has his eyes on OSU, but it would be hard to turn down Bloomington.

I tend to think Pitino has some more years in the tank after he survived the main thrust of the latest controversy.

[Juice]

Stevens has no list of jobs. He is doing fine with the �� Celtics. 6 year deal worth $30 million I think.

I was being sarcastic, implying that Stevens isn't going to consider IU let alone any other college or NBA team.

[xeus]

Don't forget that we are in the midst of significant and meaningful change. Two things are happening that will create a program where we don't have to worry about coaches leaving, and players not living up to expectations:

1) A handful of seats at Cintas will be wider.
2) Fans will stop incessantly socializing at games.

Keep the faith people. The future is bright.

[xu82]

Don't forget that we are in the midst of significant and meaningful change. Two things are happening that will create a program where we don't have to worry about coaches leaving, and players not living up to expectations:

1) A handful of seats at Cintas will be wider.
2) Fans will stop incessantly socializing at games.

Keep the faith people. The future is bright.

Will there be bubbles around each seat in the lower bowl? It could minimize socializing. But it sounds like that's unnecessary, since no one as much as stands. I read that, but didn't see it live.

[Blue Blooded-05]

That may not impress the NBA scouts, but it might impress some higher paying European teams.

Not this again... X would have to be the only school with 2 players leaving early to play in Europe

[Masterofreality]

Don't forget that we are in the midst of significant and meaningful change. Two things are happening that will create a program where we don't have to worry about coaches leaving, and players not living up to expectations:

1) A handful of seats at Cintas will be wider.
2) Fans will stop incessantly socializing at games.

Keep the faith people. The future is bright.

Hey, with my wider ass, those seat improvements are important!

On another note about an ominous future. The infamous and brilliant DC Muskie has accepted my invitation for a Cleveland Indians weekend in May when the Tribe will summarily dispatch the Kansas City Foiles.
The dark clouds of doom are already at a "hangover" point. Oh the humanity.

[Masterofreality]

Plus his $1.5M per goes a long way in Cincy.

Even further in Northern Kentucky.

[AviatorX]

Not this again... X would have to be the only school with 2 players leaving early to play in Europe

Uhhh...it hasn't exactly been a huge secret as far as the expectation for TB's future after this season.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Not this again... X would have to be the only school with 2 players leaving early to play in Europe

Ha, what? Players leave early all the time at all sorts of schools and dont even sniff the NBA and go to Europe.

[XUFan09]

Ha, what? Players leave early all the time at all sorts of schools and dont even sniff the NBA and go to Europe.
Lol yeah, I guess it's so awful that a player who may have hit his ceiling for the NBA draft decided to go earn a six-figure salary rather than incur a year of opportunity cost.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Xavier]

I didnt think it happened often. I don't follow anyone besides Xavier, though. Can't imagine a two time all conference guy in a major conference leaves for Europe often. I think Tre will be gone though.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I didnt think it happened often. I don't follow anyone besides Xavier, though. Can't imagine a two time all conference guy in a major conference leaves for Europe often. I think Tre will be gone though.

Well you are assuming in your mind he thinks he is leaving for Europe. If he leaves I am sure his goal is the NBA and he will do so being ok with going to Europe and making 6 figures if the NBA doesnt work out. Or he has decided he is ok with D-League for a time before Europe.

[casualfan]

Well you are assuming in your mind he thinks he is leaving for Europe. If he leaves I am sure his goal is the NBA and he will do so being ok with going to Europe and making 6 figures if the NBA doesnt work out. Or he has decided he is ok with D-League for a time before Europe.

And what people don't realize with a guy like Tre is that at some point he's maxed out the benefit of playing at this level for his development.

He is a guy that would be a 2 in the NBA, yet he basically plays the 4 in college.

Does it do him much good to come back next year and guard a bunch of face up 4's, a position he's never going to guard at the next level?

Where is the benefit to him if he comes back?

And spare me the "he can get his degree" BS. With what he'd make in Europe he'd still have a nice first year salary after he set aside what it would cost to come back and finish at some point.

Now if he just loves the college game and being at X and wants to come back for him go for it, but the idea that not making the NBA immediately makes leaving a bad choice is a bogus one.

[Xavier]

Well you are assuming in your mind he thinks he is leaving for Europe. If he leaves I am sure his goal is the NBA and he will do so being ok with going to Europe and making 6 figures if the NBA doesnt work out. Or he has decided he is ok with D-League for a time before Europe.

I misunderstood- thought people were saying guys leave for Europe all the time. Took that as guys who knew they weren't going to the NBA but wanted to go start getting paid anyways.

[ammtd34]

I misunderstood- thought people were saying guys leave for Europe all the time. Took that as guys who knew they weren't going to the NBA but wanted to go start getting paid anyways.

First and foremost, they're leaving to make money.

[D-West & PO-Z]

First and foremost, they're leaving to make money.

Yeah this. I mean there are guys who leave early all the time with the goal to make money. I am sure a lot of them think they can make the NBA but also know they might not and if they dont they are perfectly fine going to make money in another league. And there are plenty of guys who leave knowing the NBA isnt going to happen but try and then move on to another league.

[bleedXblue]

I figured next year was a rebuild prior to this year. I expected Tre to leave early (and still do) and I expected Ed to have a good year and leave early. Now, Ed comes back (I think) and wont be 100% maybe for the whole year....who knows. Still a rebuild for Xavier. We wont compete for a league title, but may have an outside shot at an NCAA tourney birth. What I hope for the most next year is some very solid consistent play from the young guys (all frosh plus Q and Tyrique) to prepare for 2018-2019.

Ominous? Hardly.

Could we get a really solid 5th year guy to help? I would hope so if Tre leaves........this is a must. Mack has to get a guy that can help right away with the transition.

[AviatorX]

I figured next year was a rebuild prior to this year. I expected Tre to leave early (and still do) and I expected Ed to have a good year and leave early. Now, Ed comes back (I think) and wont be 100% maybe for the whole year....who knows. Still a rebuild for Xavier. We wont compete for a league title, but may have an outside shot at an NCAA tourney birth. What I hope for the most next year is some very solid consistent play from the young guys (all frosh plus Q and Tyrique) to prepare for 2018-2019.

Ominous? Hardly.

Could we get a really solid 5th year guy to help? I would hope so if Tre leaves........this is a must. Mack has to get a guy that can help right away with the transition.

This is a good post. I think the NCAA should be an expectation at this point though, even in a retooling year.

Next year's young guys are really talented. Scruggs and Naji aren't great shooters, but they are dynamic players. Along side a more mature Q they should be able to guard the hell out of the ball on the perimeter and create good looks for JP, Gates, and to whatever extent Harden and Ridder are ready to play. More importantly, next year's team (on paper) obviously won't have as high a ceiling as 95 but should develop and get better throughout the year, a huge frustration of this season for many. On top of that, X has a really good home non-con slate next season (Gavitt, Baylor, UC, etc), so should hopefully be able to get a couple good scalps before BE play starts.

We are seeing this season how mediocre the resume can be and still be strongly in consideration. I don't think it should be a question that X expect a bid every year.

[markchal]

Every season, Mack is on the hotseat or he's leaving for a better job. I think it's gonna take one of the blue bloods like people have said, but Mack isn't gonna have as much heat coming off this season.

If he does, the world will go on, as it always does at X. If that does happen, I'd love for them to bring Pat Kelsey back.

[X Factor]

I follow most of the teams in the BE pretty close, and I can't remember too many guys who left early just to go play in Europe. Most of the guys that I know who left early, actually got drafted and are at least sitting on an NBA bench.

Not saying Tre should come back, because I think he has basically reached his ceiling. The only way I see him getting drafted if he came back would be to average about 20 points, 7 or 8 rebounds, and shoot 45% from three. I'm talking POY type year.

[X Factor]

I figured next year was a rebuild prior to this year. I expected Tre to leave early (and still do) and I expected Ed to have a good year and leave early. Now, Ed comes back (I think) and wont be 100% maybe for the whole year....who knows. Still a rebuild for Xavier. We wont compete for a league title, but may have an outside shot at an NCAA tourney birth. What I hope for the most next year is some very solid consistent play from the young guys (all frosh plus Q and Tyrique) to prepare for 2018-2019.

Ominous? Hardly.

Could we get a really solid 5th year guy to help? I would hope so if Tre leaves........this is a must. Mack has to get a guy that can help right away with the transition.

I'm done with 5th year guys unless they're coming from another top conference, not the worst conferences in DI basketball. I don't care if Mack didn't see them playing as big of a role as they ended up playing. Xavier is a Top 25 program with Final Four aspirations. Find another program on Xavier's level that is taking these type of guys.

[bleedXblue]

I follow most of the teams in the BE pretty close, and I can't remember too many guys who left early just to go play in Europe. Most of the guys that I know who left early, actually got drafted and are at least sitting on an NBA bench.

Not saying Tre should come back, because I think he has basically reached his ceiling. The only way I see him getting drafted if he came back would be to average about 20 points, 7 or 8 rebounds, and shoot 45% from three. I'm talking POY type year.

I do think in looking at returning players that Tre would have a pretty good shot at BE POY. If Brunson returns he'll be right there too.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Every season, Mack is on the hotseat or he's leaving for a better job. I think it's gonna take one of the blue bloods like people have said, but Mack isn't gonna have as much heat coming off this season.

If he does, the world will go on, as it always does at X. If that does happen, I'd love for them to bring Pat Kelsey back.

If/when Mack leaves, Pat Kelsey would probably get a look and/or interview but don't expect him to be a likely hire. For one, Travis Steele's loyalty to remain on the bench as an assistant when he's been up for some HC positions will be STRONGLY considered and it's widely thought the job would be his to lose. Secondly, Kelsey's departure from X several years ago in somewhat odd fashion is also going to be considered. That's not my opinion either. That has been mentioned by several people who have a bit of a peek behind the curtain.

[X Factor]

I'm done with 5th year guys unless they're coming from another top conference, not the worst conferences in DI basketball. I don't care if Mack didn't see them playing as big of a role as they ended up playing. Xavier is a Top 25 program with Final Four aspirations. Find another program on Xavier's level that is taking these type of guys.

I just looked at a complete transfer list from a couple of years ago, not just graduate transfers, and almost all of the transfers left their school for a lower level, not the opposite.

Who have been the best transfers at X? Drew Lavender (Oklahoma - former 5 star), and JCraw (Indiana).

[bleedXblue]

I just looked at a complete transfer list from a couple of years ago, not just graduate transfers, and almost all of the transfers left their school for a lower level, not the opposite.

Who have been the best transfers at X? Drew Lavender (Oklahoma - former 5 star), and JCraw (Indiana).

two guys left X.......Martin and Lyons for equal or higher level programs

[ReturnOfTheMack]

I just looked at a complete transfer list from a couple of years ago, not just graduate transfers, and almost all of the transfers left their school for a lower level, not the opposite.

Who have been the best transfers at X? Drew Lavender (Oklahoma - former 5 star), and JCraw (Indiana).

Brian Thornton (Vanderbilt)

[bleedXblue]

I'm done with 5th year guys unless they're coming from another top conference, not the worst conferences in DI basketball. I don't care if Mack didn't see them playing as big of a role as they ended up playing. Xavier is a Top 25 program with Final Four aspirations. Find another program on Xavier's level that is taking these type of guys.

Yeah Mack has not done well here......but I hold out hope that we could find a guy that is looking for the right opportunity and the right fit who's looking for a change of scenery

[X Factor]

Brian Thornton (Vanderbilt)

Again, he came from a Power 5 conference. Jamel McLean transferred from Tulsa, not a terrible program, and we got him for 3 years after redshirting.

[XUFan09]

I'm done with 5th year guys unless they're coming from another top conference, not the worst conferences in DI basketball. I don't care if Mack didn't see them playing as big of a role as they ended up playing. Xavier is a Top 25 program with Final Four aspirations. Find another program on Xavier's level that is taking these type of guys.
Well, that's just silly. If Rashid had just been a role player who rebounded the hell out of the ball, and if Malcolm had been coming off the bench as a 3-and-D glue guy, they would have been great complements to the talent on the team.

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[ReturnOfTheMack]

Again, he came from a Power 5 conference. Jamel McLean transferred from Tulsa, not a terrible program, and we got him for 3 years after redshirting.

You asked who the best transfers were and I mentioned Brian Thornton along with J Craw & Lavender whom you mentioned.

[X Factor]

Well, that's just silly. If Rashid had just been a role player who rebounded the hell out of the ball, and if Malcolm had been coming off the bench as a 3-and-D glue guy, they would have been great complements to the talent on the team.

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I disagree. Again, name another program on Xavier's level who is taking these type of guys from Norfolk St. and Florida A&M? Bernard's D hasn't been that great. He's not a lockdown defender.

We should be recruiting kids and developing them.

[muskiekt]

Villanova picked up Eric Pashall from Fordham..

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2673562-ranking-the-top-transfers-in-the-2016-17-college-basketball-season

Seems the Gaston pick up was rated as pretty good. Get over the we are better than that b.s... Staff made decisions they thought would help the team, maybe they did maybe they didn't, depends on how you view it and everyone views things differently. But to say stop taking players who play for lesser leagues because we're better than that is just asinine.

[muskienick]

I disagree. Again, name another program on Xavier's level who is taking these type of guys from Norfolk St. and Florida A&M? Bernard's D hasn't been that great. He's not a lockdown defender.

We should be recruiting kids and developing them.

All I can say is that I'd hate to think what the Muskies would have looked like this year without Gaston and Bernard to supply needed depth. We did not even have 13 scholarship players this year. We only had 11 scholarship players (counting Tim Stainbrook and Myles Davis!!!!!). Had we not had Bernard and Gaston does anybody really believe that we would have been able to recruit 4 more freshmen with talent and potential. If that were true, why didn't we fill the other two open scholarships?

[markchal]

What is this narrative that Gaston was only brought in to be a role player off the bench to grab some rebounds? He was brought in because the staff knew Reynolds was a goner. The people who keep feeling sorry for ourselves about Reynolds left and the Myles thing didn't work out aren't living in reality. Myles was suspended indefinitely well before the start of the season, and everyone saw Reynolds leaving from a mile away.

[XU 87]

I'm done with 5th year guys unless they're coming from another top conference, not the worst conferences in DI basketball. I don't care if Mack didn't see them playing as big of a role as they ended up playing. Xavier is a Top 25 program with Final Four aspirations. Find another program on Xavier's level that is taking these type of guys.

So are you saying this team would be better off without Bernard and Gaston?

I remind you, Bernard came out of the blue and the team had a scholarship available.

Should Arizona have turned down Lyons because he wasn't from a "top" conference". Should Louisville have turned down the Cleveland State transfer?

The bottom line is that if you think a a 5th year guy can help your team, and you have a scholarship available, there's zero risk in giving him a scholarship.

[casualfan]

This issue with taking 5th year guys isn't as much this year as it is next year.

Instead of getting a multi year transfer or a high school kid you're essentially taking a mercenary.

Which is fine if things work out I guess, but now you're looking forward to next year and instead of having some guys who were role players in those spots this year that are ready to grow and take on a larger role those spots are empty and need to be filled again.

That's how you end up signing a 6 man class and subsequently have an unbalanced roster.

In order for get to the point where the program is consistent and we don't have these downturns we need to have guys in those roles that will be here and can grow as their time here goes on.

Now I don't think Malcolm falls into that category because he was only recruited last minute after what happened with Myles, but Shid definitely is, especially since he took up a scholarship for 2 years.

Instead of having a guy next year that's a redshirt sophomore or a true junior with a couple years of D1 experience under his belt we end up having to go out and grab a JUCO to fill that gap.

I would really prefer we get back to taking high school kids and transfers with multiple years of eligibility left as it is in my opinion far and away the best way to build the program.

[AviatorX]

What is this narrative that Gaston was only brought in to be a role player off the bench to grab some rebounds? He was brought in because the staff knew Reynolds was a goner. The people who keep feeling sorry for ourselves about Reynolds left and the Myles thing didn't work out aren't living in reality. Myles was suspended indefinitely well before the start of the season, and everyone saw Reynolds leaving from a mile away.

I mean those two aren't the same at all. By the time Myles was suspended indefinitely, it was too late to add anyone to the roster.

[casualfan]

The bottom line is that if you think a a 5th year guy can help your team, and you have a scholarship available, there's zero risk in giving him a scholarship.

I agree that it is a low risk proposition, but I also know a lot of coaches worry how bringing in a guy for their 5th year can affect team chemistry.

[XU 87]

I disagree. Again, name another program on Xavier's level who is taking these type of guys from Norfolk St. and Florida A&M? Bernard's D hasn't been that great. He's not a lockdown defender.



Louisville, Pitt, Arizona and Wichita State, to name a few.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2451006-ranking-the-best-graduate-transfers-for-the-2015-16-ncaa-basketball-season

[casualfan]

Louisville, Pitt, Arizona and Wichita State, to name a few.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2451006-ranking-the-best-graduate-transfers-for-the-2015-16-ncaa-basketball-season

I don't necessarily agree with his point, but thos examples don't disprove it either.

Bernard and Gaston both came from the MEAC which by just about any measure is the worst or second worst conference in D1.

Arizona got a transfer from the WCC which is typically a top 10 league (there are 32).

Pitt took a player from the Ivy which is a middle of the pack league.

Louisville took a player from the Horizon which is also middle of the pac and the CAA which is a top 10 or 12 league most years.

Wichita also took theirs from the Horizon.

And again, I'm not saying his point is right, just that those examples don't run counter to his point.

[X Factor]

Should Arizona have turned down Lyons because he wasn't from a "top" conference". Should Louisville have turned down the Cleveland State transfer?

C'mon, you know better than that. For one, Miller coached Lyons at Xavier and knew what he was getting. Even had Lyons gone somewhere, he was coming from a program with sustained NCAA tournament success and had played against the best competition in the country.

Norfolk and Florida A&M aren't really that close to Cleveland State's level. Cleveland State has won some NCAA tournament games and produced NBA players, notably Norris Cole.

Rashid Gaston was absolutely expected to be an impact player for Xavier. He redshirted last year and Mack knew he was going to have a big role on this team.

[xufan2434]

I disagree. Again, name another program on Xavier's level who is taking these type of guys from Norfolk St. and Florida A&M? Bernard's D hasn't been that great. He's not a lockdown defender.

We should be recruiting kids and developing them.

I mean I would have gladly taken Damien Lee or Trey Lewis last year instead of them going to Louisville. And they came from Drexel and Cleveland St to lead em in scoring. Had it not been for the self sanctioned ban that those poor kids had no part of, they woulda had a pretty solid seed in March.

I get your point, that's just a recent example coming to my mind. Creighton to speak of has Foster who came from Kansas St. But Mo Watson also came from Boston University. And I think he's just an example of someone who was overlooked cause of his size. But for the most part I would agree. If they're coming from a smaller school and have just been dominating after 1 or 2 years, then I'm good with it. I'd rather if it's going to be a 5th year with 1 of eligibility to come from a power conference.

[XU 87]

I don't necessarily agree with his point, but thos examples don't disprove it either.

Bernard and Gaston both came from the MEAC which by just about any measure is the worst or second worst conference in D1.

Arizona got a transfer from the WCC which is typically a top 10 league (there are 32).

Pitt took a player from the Ivy which is a middle of the pack league.

Louisville took a player from the Horizon which is also middle of the pac and the CAA which is a top 10 or 12 league most years.

Wichita also took theirs from the Horizon.

And again, I'm not saying his point is right, just that those examples don't run counter to his point.

He said he only wants transfers from "top conferences". None of those conferences are considered a top conference.

[X Factor]

He said he only wants transfers from "top conferences". None of those conferences are considered a top conference.

Graduate transfers, with 1 year of immediate eligibility, I would prefer Mack not reach to the worst conference in the country. If Mack wants take a transfer, I would be fine with taking a kid from a lesser conference, but still not one of the worst conferences in the country, as long as they have multiple years remaining.

But Mack's the coach and he gets to make the decisions. I just don't think we'll get to a Final Four that way when 2 or our 5 starters are like that.

[XU 87]

C'mon, you know better than that. For one, Miller coached Lyons at Xavier and knew what he was getting. Even had Lyons gone somewhere, he was coming from a program with sustained NCAA tournament success and had played against the best competition in the country.

Norfolk and Florida A&M aren't really that close to Cleveland State's level. Cleveland State has won some NCAA tournament games and produced NBA players, notably Norris Cole.

Rashid Gaston was absolutely expected to be an impact player for Xavier. He redshirted last year and Mack knew he was going to have a big role on this team.

You said you only want transfers from "top conferences". Are you changing that to, "You don't want transfers from the very worst conferences?"

I don't care what conference a guy comes from. I only care if he can play and contribute.

[AviatorX]

You said you only want transfers from "top conferences". Are you changing that to, "You don't want transfers from the very worst conferences?"

I don't care what conference a guy comes from. Ionly care if he can play and contribute.

This is the beginning and end of the analysis. Do we want a guy who was a dominant rebounder in the MEAC or a scrub from Boston College? No point in closing off entire conferences or automatically wanting guys from others.

[muethibp]

If the Indiana job opens up I would look for Brad Stevens to be at the top of their list of coaches.

And I would look for him to laugh uproariously at them.

[XU 87]

Graduate transfers, with 1 year of immediate eligibility, I would prefer Mack not reach to the worst conference in the country. If Mack wants take a transfer, I would be fine with taking a kid from a lesser conference, but still not one of the worst conferences in the country, as long as they have multiple years remaining.

But Mack's the coach and he gets to make the decisions. I just don't think we'll get to a Final Four that way when 2 or our 5 starters are like that.

Bernard is starting because of Davis situation and then Sumner got hurt.

Rashid Gaston doesn't even start, and is part of a "center by committee".

[bleedXblue]

Bernard is starting because Davis situation and then Sumner got hurt.

Rashid Gaston doesn't even start, and is part of a "center by committee".

no kidding...geesh

[GetUp5]

This thread should die.

[X Factor]

Again, go back 10-12 years; where did Xavier's most successful transfers come from?

If we never got Bernard and Mack was forced to play Tim Stainbrook, I'm pretty sure he would be putting up 6 points and 3 rebounds a game like Bernard.

I think the future is bright for Xavier. I hope Mack doesn't get in a position where we have to go out and get and play guys like Gaston and Bernard, and I'm not trying to belittle those guys. I just happen to think Xavier is above getting those guys.

Oh well, this is a dead horse.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not worried about our future. This is Xavier. We win here. Every year.

[94GRAD]

Again, go back 10-12 years; where did Xavier's most successful transfers come from?

If we never got Bernard and Mack was forced to play Tim Stainbrook, I'm pretty sure he would be putting up 6 points and 3 rebounds a game like Bernard.

I think the future is bright for Xavier. I hope Mack doesn't get in a position where we have to go out and get and play guys like Gaston and Bernard, and I'm not trying to belittle those guys. I just happen to think Xavier is above getting those guys.

Oh well, this is a dead horse.

Hyperbole at its finest! The only thing he would avereage more than 1 of is T.O.'s

[XU 87]

Who needs transfers when we have walk-ons?

[ammtd34]

Again, go back 10-12 years; where did Xavier's most successful transfers come from?

If we never got Bernard and Mack was forced to play Tim Stainbrook, I'm pretty sure he would be putting up 6 points and 3 rebounds a game like Bernard.


No, he wouldn't. He gets 0 minutes on a team ravaged by injuries and idiocy.

Andrew Taylor got rotation minutes on a Sweet 16 team and averaged 2.8 ppg. Andre Walker averaged 5 points and 6 rebounds. Let's pump the brakes on Stainbrook a little bit.

[AviatorX]

Thankfully X didn't land D2 transfer Max Strus or X Factor's head would have exploded.

Speaking of D2 Duncan Robinson is a really valuable piece on a good Michigan team and he transferred from Williams College. Williams!

And right now on ESPN Wake is starting a grad transfer from Milwaukee (last place Horizon league).

[ammtd34]

Thankfully X didn't land D2 transfer Max Strus or X Factor's head would have exploded.

Speaking of D2 Duncan Robinson is a really valuable piece on a good Michigan team and he transferred from Williams College. Williams!

And right now on ESPN Wake is starting a grad transfer from Milwaukee (last place Horizon league).

Williams is DIII.

If a guy can play he can play.

[XUFan09]

Depends what one means by "impact" when talkiny about Gaston. Was he expected to be a good post defender, easily better than Farr or Reynolds before him? Yes, and he has been. I wouldn't call him an impact defender, though. Was he expected to be a dominant rebounder, one of the better rebounders in the entire conference? Yes, and he has been. In fact, he has the second best total rebounding rate in the entire conference (behind Delgado, obviously), so it would be safe to say he's exceeded expectations in that regard. That's one area where be was expected to be an impact player and he has been.

Was he expected to be a regular post scorer, though? No, he was expected to be an offensive role player on a team that had Bluiett, Sumner, Myles, and Macura scoring. In Myles and later Ed's absence, he has been efficient at a decent usage rate, but offensively he's just a "role-player-plus." That's reasonable, considering that no one expected him to be an impact player on offense.

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[casualfan]

Depends what one means by "impact" when talkiny about Gaston. Was he expected to be a good post defender, easily better than Farr or Reynolds before him? Yes, and he has been. I wouldn't call him an impact defender, though. Was he expected to be a dominant rebounder, one of the better rebounders in the entire conference? Yes, and he has been. In fact, he has the second best total rebounding rate in the entire conference (behind Delgado, obviously), so it would be safe to say he's exceeded expectations in that regard. That's one area where be was expected to be an impact player and he has been.


Shid has been a solid player this year.

I don't know that I would call him a good post defender.

[X Factor]

And Mack took Andrew Taylor, who came from Hillsdale College and he averaged a whopping 2 points in his three year career at Xavier.

Maybe other teams get lucky and get one of the very few guys who can play at the highest college level. Xavier really hasn't been that lucky when reaching so low.

[KFX]

Rashid is getting 8 and 7 on 20 minutes a game. What's the problem? I might have missed that.

[AviatorX]

And Mack took Andrew Taylor, who came from Hillsdale College and he averaged a whopping 2 points in his three year career at Xavier.

Maybe other teams get lucky and get one of the very few guys who can play at the highest college level. Xavier really hasn't been that lucky when reaching so low.

Pretty sure Taylor was taken as a walk on.

[X Factor]

Pretty sure Taylor was taken as a walk on.

Well, his last 2 years he averaged around 11 minutes per game.

Fun fact, he scored a career high 16 points in a loss to Marquette in the NCAA tournament. His only game in double digits, obviously.

[GoMuskies]

And Taylor was our best player in an NCAA Tournament game.

Okay, we got slaughtered in that NCAA Tournament game, but Taylor WAS our top performer.

[xeus]

If we never got Bernard and Mack was forced to play Tim Stainbrook, I'm pretty sure he would be putting up 6 points and 3 rebounds a game like Bernard.

That's awesome. Also, I heard this dude will be starting for Tyrique tomorrow night:

http://www.xavierhoops.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2157&stc=1

[GoMuskies]

That's awesome. Also, I heard this dude will be starting for Tyrique tomorrow night:

http://www.xavierhoops.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2157&stc=1

I hear Monmouth recruited him for his potential bench antics.

[nuts4xu]

There are not a lot of quality players (5th year or otherwise) transferring out of programs like Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky. I have no idea why it matters where a kid played previously. If they can play, and contribute in some fashion to the program, it really doesn't matter where they played previously.

What a dumb argument.

[chico]

No, he wouldn't. He gets 0 minutes on a team ravaged by injuries and idiocy.

Andrew Taylor got rotation minutes on a Sweet 16 team and averaged 2.8 ppg. Andre Walker averaged 5 points and 6 rebounds. Let's pump the brakes on Stainbrook a little bit.

Don't you go disrespecting The Sheriff!

[birdman71]

i hear monmouth recruited him for his potential bench antics.

i like the cut of his jib.

[X Factor]

There are not a lot of quality players (5th year or otherwise) transferring out of programs like Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky. I have no idea why it matters where a kid played previously. If they can play, and contribute in some fashion to the program, it really doesn't matter where they played previously.

What a dumb argument.

How is it a dumb argument? That's the point, most 5th year graduate transfers are coming from smaller programs and just aren't going to make a big impact in a much tougher conference playing at higher level of basketball.

Hopefully this year is a an anomaly because I don't think it's the best way to run a major DI basketball program like Xavier when so few of those guys actually make an impact.

Sean Miller had a great track record of landing transfers. He got McLean, Lavender, JCraw, at Xavier. He got T.J. McConnell and Mark Lyons at Zona.

[muethibp]

For what it's worth, not really for the reasons in the OP, but I am also moderately concerned about the future. Bless them, but this is not a good team right now. They have basically one good win in 2017 (@ Creighton) and even watching it I'm still not even sure how that happened. From this only-sorta-good team they will lose Bernard, Gaston, and Blueitt, and I am not counting on anything from Sumner next year. Sure, the recruiting class is good, but depending on 18-year-olds is folly. Even the most elite of prospects can struggle some as freshmen. They should not be expected to be material contributors. Which really raises just how much talent will be around next year and it's even a little scary looking out a few years. Hope I'm wrong.

[X Factor]

Assuming Tre and Ed both decide to leave after this year, this will be the probable starting lineup heading into next year:

PG - Goodin (SOPH)
SG - Scruggs (not really a SG, but more of a combo guard) (FR)
SF - JP (SR)
PF - Gates (JR)
C- Tyrique (SOPH)

Bench:

Naji Marshall (FR)
Sean O'Mara (SR)
Elias Harden (FR)
Jared Ridder (FR)
Kentravious Jones (FR) if he even qualifies

Not an outrageous claim to be a little worried about next year.

[muskiefan82]

Any fifth year transfers that might be interested because they WILL get PT?

[casualfan]

Assuming Tre and Ed both decide to leave after this year, this will be the probable starting lineup heading into next year:

PG - Goodin (SOPH)
SG - Scruggs (not really a SG, but more of a combo guard) (FR)
SF - JP (SR)
PF - Gates (JR)
C- Tyrique (SOPH)

Bench:

Naji Marshall (FR)
Sean O'Mara (SR)
Elias Harden (FR)
Jared Ridder (FR)
Kentravious Jones (FR) if he even qualifies

Not an outrageous claim to be a little worried about next year.

Not that he would make a difference on your point but dont forget about the juco.

[X Factor]

Not that he would make a difference on your point but dont forget about the juco.

Yep, forgot about Earnst.

[casualfan]

One other thing to kerp in mind is that were going to have some stiff tests early in the season while all the new guys are getting their feet wet.

I know both Baylor and UC return most of their team and we also go to northern iowa if im not mistaken.

[XUFan09]

Shid has been a solid player this year.

I don't know that I would call him a good post defender.
Depends what you are looking for in a post defender. If it's big-time shot blocking and rim protection, then no, Shid doesn't fit the bill. He has a respectable block rate, but that's not his forte on defense. Shid is the kind of defender you want, though, if you want a guy who: 1) can handle one-on-one post duties very well, 2) can quickly react and slide in for help defense, 3) can recover effectively from a double-team or hedge, and 4) can moderately hold his own if switched onto a guard or wing.

He's a fundamentally good defender, but the fact that he's not a lockdown defender and he isn't a prolific shot blocker is why I already said that he wasn't an impact player on that end, nor was he expected to be.

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[ammtd34]

Well, his last 2 years he averaged around 11 minutes per game.

Fun fact, he scored a career high 16 points in a loss to Marquette in the NCAA tournament. His only game in double digits, obviously.

That was my point earlier, though. Taylor averaged double digit minutes on a good team. Stainbrook doesn't average any minutes on an average team. What makes you think he would double Taylor's output if he was just given minutes?

[Juice]

How is it a dumb argument? That's the point, most 5th year graduate transfers are coming from smaller programs and just aren't going to make a big impact in a much tougher conference playing at higher level of basketball.

Hopefully this year is a an anomaly because I don't think it's the best way to run a major DI basketball program like Xavier when so few of those guys actually make an impact.

Sean Miller had a great track record of landing transfers. He got McLean, Lavender, JCraw, at Xavier. He got T.J. McConnell and Mark Lyons at Zona.

And only one of those was a graduate transfer.

[XU 87]

Fun fact, he scored a career high 16 points in a loss to Marquette in the NCAA tournament. His only game in double digits, obviously.

That's what happens when you don't keep an eye on Andrew "The Sheriff" Taylor. Of course, Marquette held Tu to about 7 points that game.

[XU 87]

That was my point earlier, though. Taylor averaged double digit minutes on a good team. Stainbrook doesn't average any minutes on an average team. What makes you think he would double Taylor's output if he was just given minutes?

My recollection is that Taylor was a good defender, particularly running the hedge off of screens.

[xu82]

When I consider the future, that includes well beyond tomorrow or even next year. I'm quite pleased with the thought of where we should be 3-4 years down the road. Huge classes can have positives and negatives. The general trend is very positive.

[casualfan]

Depends what you are looking for in a post defender. If it's big-time shot blocking and rim protection, then no, Shid doesn't fit the bill. He has a respectable block rate, but that's not his forte on defense. Shid is the kind of defender you want, though, if you want a guy who: 1) can handle one-on-one post duties very well, 2) can quickly react and slide in for help defense, 3) can recover effectively from a double-team or hedge, and 4) can moderately hold his own if switched onto a guard or wing.

He's a fundamentally good defender, but the fact that he's not a lockdown defender and he isn't a prolific shot blocker is why I already said that he wasn't an impact player on that end, nor was he expected to be.


I wasn't thinking of a shot blocking rim protector at all.

I just don't think he's a guy that's a particularly good defender.

Decent bigs have went off against us and his foul rate is off the charts (although that is the case for all of our bigs).

Motley and Acuil killed us inside at Baylor.

Ditto Collins for Wake, Kempton for Lehigh, Puryear for Missouri, Chrabasz for Butler, Patton for Creighton (here), both bigs for UC, etc.

I like Shid. I think he's a solid backup on a good team, but to me he's a guy that if you get him one on one in the post you are likely to get fouled, score, or both.

[X Factor]

Forgot about Travis Taylor, who transferred to X from Monmouth. He was a Mack guy. He was pretty bad his first year, but his second year, he averaged 12 points and 9 rebounds. He was really good. He was Mack's best transfer so far. I think the JUCO Brady Earnst kid could be a really good get down the road too.

That's also a good reason to get kids with multiple years of eligibility left because usually their first year after redshirting it takes a while a knock the rust off and get used to playing with a new team or playing against tougher competition.

[XUFan09]

I wasn't thinking of a shot blocking rim protector at all.

I just don't think he's a guy that's a particularly good defender.

Decent bigs have went off against us and his foul rate is off the charts (although that is the case for all of our bigs).

Motley and Acuil killed us inside at Baylor.

Ditto Collins for Wake, Kempton for Lehigh, Puryear for Missouri, Chrabasz for Butler, Patton for Creighton (here), both bigs for UC, etc.

I like Shid. I think he's a solid backup on a good team, but to me he's a guy that if you get him one on one in the post you are likely to get fouled, score, or both.

I disagree with you on his level as a defender, and I think your standards for simply good, not great, defenders are too high. Good offense will generally beat good defense, so good defenders will get beat. They'll just get beat less often than the average defender. Rashid has faced some really good 5s this year, so yeah, he's gonna have moments where he puts up good defense and they still score. In addition, it's not significantly on Rashid if one of his teammates is getting torched by another big. Some of the guys you listed weren't even 5s (so he generally wasn't guarding them), and some of the 5s you listed earned a good portion of their points off other centers or off switches.

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[XUFan09]

My recollection is that Taylor was a good defender, particularly running the hedge off of screens.
Taylor was really good on the hedge, but overall, he really wasn't a good defender. Both Jeff Robinson and Erik Stenger were easily better defenders among the bigs. Obviously, Taylor more than made up for his relative deficiency on the other end, compared to those players. He did play his part on a surprisingly decent defensive team, but individually he just wasn't that good as a defender.

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