Politics Thread

[boozehound]

I agree this seems unfair. I have no idea what the rules are at the high school level. At the college level a trans female would have to undergo a full year of anti-testosterone and hormone therapy. I think it's the same for the Olympics, but I'm not sure. If that's not the case for the high school level, and it very well may not be, then yeah...that isn't fair.

Is this stuff really widespread enough that it's worth the amount of time we spend talking about it? In general I think male-to-female transgender athletes would probably have an unfair advantage. How often is that really an issue though?

The fact that millions of people who have probably never met, let alone spoken to, a transgender person are up in arms about it seems a little ridiculous to me.

[boozehound]

Tt is saying stupid things; Greene has been caught saying completely psycho conspiracy theories that if people believe are true, is a detriment to our country. Two completely separate things.

I would agree. The fact that the House is making something of a mascot out of MTG is ridiculous. Strip her of any committee assignments that might be pending, and move on. She is a Freshman member of the House who has done nothing but cause trouble for her party. She is also completely batshit crazy in a way that makes it kind of dangerous that she holds public office, but there is less that we can do about that right now.

[Xville]

Is this stuff really widespread enough that it's worth the amount of time we spend talking about it? In general I think male-to-female transgender athletes would probably have an unfair advantage. How often is that really an issue though?

The fact that millions of people who have probably never met, let alone spoken to, a transgender person are up in arms about it seems a little ridiculous to me.

I really don’t give a poo about what gender someone wants to be, I mean you do you. However, you shouldn’t be allowed to basically cheat...especially when (and I know this is drastic but still) keep someone from getting an athletic scholarship because the biological male beat a female in track or whatever it is. Again, I know that’s drastic and yeah it’s probably not widespread, but one instance of this happening is too many in my opinion. Everyone should be playing by the same set of rules.

[xubrew]

Is this stuff really widespread enough that it's worth the amount of time we spend talking about it? In general I think male-to-female transgender athletes would probably have an unfair advantage. How often is that really an issue though?

The fact that millions of people who have probably never met, let alone spoken to, a transgender person are up in arms about it seems a little ridiculous to me.

Agreed. This not an issue. It's been the rule for a while, and no one really ever had an issue with it before. It's just that they suddenly found something else to either be mad at or to champion, I guess.

[Xville]

Agreed. This not an issue. It's been the rule for a while, and no one really ever had an issue with it before. It's just that they suddenly found something else to either be mad at or to champion, I guess.

Just hypothetical question here...not sure if you have a daughter or not, but for the sake of argument, let's say you do.

She's high school varsity athlete, let's say track, and she's a damn good one...maybe even getting a few scholarship offers...a biological male who decides that they are now female, beats your daughter in the state meet. Is it still not an issue?

Maybe it's not an issue for you, but I do have a daughter and if that scenario above does happen to her (as remote of a chance as that may be) it would be a hell of an issue for me.

[boozehound]

Just hypothetical question here...not sure if you have a daughter or not, but for the sake of argument, let's say you do.

She's high school varsity athlete, let's say track, and she's a damn good one...maybe even getting a few scholarship offers...a biological male who decides that they are now female, beats your daughter in the state meet. Is it still not an issue?

Maybe it's not an issue for you, but I do have a daughter and if that scenario above does happen to her (as remote of a chance as that may be) it would be a hell of an issue for me.

In that particular (highly unlikely) scenario I think I would still feel more empathy toward the kid who feels so uncomfortable in their own skin that they are going through the process of changing their gender than the kid who got unfairly beaten in a race. I can’t imagine what drives someone to change their gender, but I would imagine it is a very difficult process emotionally.

[XU_Lou]

According to this article from 1.5 years ago: "Through her advocacy work, she has interacted extensively with transgender athletes and she estimates there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 to 200 transgender athletes currently competing in NCAA sports."

https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/

How many are in High School?

How many will there be moving forward with Biden's new executive order: https://nypost.com/2021/01/21/bidens-exec-order-unlevels-the-playing-field-for-girls/

[Xville]

In that particular (highly unlikely) scenario I think I would still feel more empathy toward the kid who feels so uncomfortable in their own skin that they are going through the process of changing their gender than the kid who got unfairly beaten in a race. I can’t imagine what drives someone to change their gender, but I would imagine it is a very difficult process emotionally.

I’m not going to speak on that other person, because I don’t know whatever it is that makes someone feel like that or choose to make that kind of a decision, especially at high school age. It could be any number of things and I’m not going to speculate. However, I will say I’m going to give a lot more empathy toward my daughter than that kid. Don’t know if you have a daughter, but if you do, I could imagine you would feel the same way. Sorry, maybe I’m an ass for saying this, but if you choose to make that kind of a decision, then I believe you have to deal with certain consequences, one of them being not able to compete within the defined sex you identify with for a while. Period. It is bs and it becomes an uneven playing field.

[bjf123]

If she did, I missed it. I get thinking that AOC is crazy.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/26/thank-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-valuable-lesson/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[STL_XUfan]

I’m not going to speak on that other person, because I don’t know whatever it is that makes someone feel like that or choose to make that kind of a decision, especially at high school age. It could be any number of things and I’m not going to speculate. However, I will say I’m going to give a lot more empathy toward my daughter than that kid. Don’t know if you have a daughter, but if you do, I could imagine you would feel the same way. Sorry, maybe I’m an ass for saying this, but if you choose to make that kind of a decision, then I believe you have to deal with certain consequences, one of them being not able to compete within the defined sex you identify with for a while. Period. It is bs and it becomes an uneven playing field.
Honest question, do you have any friends or acquittances that are transgender? The few I have as friends and/or clients, generally are not looking to stand out, but instead to blend into the background. I just don’t see someone coming out as transgender and all of the baggage that comes with it in hopes of winning a high school track meet.

That being said, Congress spending anytime on high school or college athletics seems like a waste of their time.

[Xville]

Honest question, do you have any friends or acquittances that are transgender? The few I have as friends and/or clients, generally are not looking to stand out, but instead to blend into the background. I just don’t see someone coming out as transgender and all of the baggage that comes with it in hopes of winning a high school track meet.

That being said, Congress spending anytime on high school or college athletics seems like a waste of their time.

A couple of acquaintances but not sure what that has to do with this? The fact is that it is happening, not on a grand scale, but it is, and I don’t think biological males should be competing against females in things like track because it then becomes an uneven playing field.

I kind of agree on the Congress part, but if not them, then who? I am assuming that one day it will be a Supreme Court case of some kind..

[XU_Lou]

A couple of acquaintances but not sure what that has to do with this? The fact is that it is happening, not on a grand scale, but it is, and I don’t think biological males should be competing against females in things like track because it then becomes an uneven playing field.

I kind of agree on the Congress part, but if not them, then who? I am assuming that one day it will be a Supreme Court case of some kind..

John Calipari has made a career at recruiting "one and done's". It's not too hard to imagine a coach in women's b-ball focusing their recruiting efforts on transgenders one day in the near future. What will the reaction be when a team consisting of multiple transgenders makes a run thru the season, and then advances to the F4 or NC?

What will the reaction be when a transgender makes a WNBA team?

[bobbiemcgee]

What will the reaction be when a transgender makes a WNBA team?

Same as Renee Richards in the 70's, I assume.

[Xville]

Same as Renee Richards in the 70's, I assume.

A bit before my time...had never heard anything about that story. Regardless, I would not be surprised if there hasn’t been one in the WNBA,just not “out.”

I’m sure whenever the first one is, they will be praised for being such a trailblazer and praised for being so brave blah blah blah.

[boozehound]

Honest question, do you have any friends or acquittances that are transgender? The few I have as friends and/or clients, generally are not looking to stand out, but instead to blend into the background. I just don’t see someone coming out as transgender and all of the baggage that comes with it in hopes of winning a high school track meet.

That being said, Congress spending anytime on high school or college athletics seems like a waste of their time.

I would cosign this. I'm also not sure how many of them are elite athletes. Having said that, I do think that there is a level of athletics at which it's probably unfair to allow transgender Women to compete as Women. I'm just not really sure it happens enough that I care, though.

Mostly I just feel empathy toward them. Being Gay is hard, particularly through adolescence, even in places where homosexuality is relatively accepted. Being transgender must be exponentially more difficult, as it is much more complicated and far less accepted. I don't know any transgender people well enough that I have had that conversation with them, but I can only imagine. I certainly don't think they are changing genders so that they can get a track and field scholarship.

It just seems like right-wing fear porn to me, similar to when people were very concerned about men saying that they 'identified as women' to hang out in Women's bathrooms. I'm not sure it really happens, but man does it get older religious dudes in the South and the Midwest all kinds of fired up.

[xubrew]

I would cosign this. I'm also not sure how many of them are elite athletes. Having said that, I do think that there is a level of athletics at which it's probably unfair to allow transgender Women to compete as Women. I'm just not really sure it happens enough that I care, though.

Mostly I just feel empathy toward them. Being Gay is hard, particularly through adolescence, even in places where homosexuality is relatively accepted. Being transgender must be exponentially more difficult, as it is much more complicated and far less accepted. I don't know any transgender people well enough that I have had that conversation with them, but I can only imagine. I certainly don't think they are changing genders so that they can get a track and field scholarship.

It just seems like right-wing fear porn to me, similar to when people were very concerned about men saying that they 'identified as women' to hang out in Women's bathrooms. I'm not sure it really happens, but man does it get older religious dudes in the South and the Midwest all kinds of fired up.

I know. When a rule has been in place for ten years or so, and people are only now becoming alarmed by it, then I tend to think that people are just looking for something to be alarmed about.

And, on the flip side, if you decide to champion something that's already in place strictly for political reasons, then you're just looking for something to champion for political reasons. You're not really interested in making any actual or meaningful change.

THIS WAS ALREADY A RULE!!! It was in place throughout the entire Trump administration, and was put in place long before that. No one was really ever concerned, nor should they have been, nor should they be now.

[GoMuskies]

If you can convince yourself that biological males playing girls sports is just fine, then you can probably convince yourself of just about anything. It may not be the most pressing issue in the world, but when it does come up it's blatantly unfair and a bit of a joke. Even Renee Richards said it was an unfair advantage.

[xubrew]

If you can convince yourself that biological males playing girls sports is just fine, then you can probably convince yourself of just about anything. It may not be the most pressing issue in the world, but when it does come up it's blatantly unfair and a bit of a joke. Even Renee Richards said it was an unfair advantage.

At the college level I'm only familiar with (VERY FEW) situations, and those went the other way. Trans males that were permitted to take testosterone, which is normally considered performance enhancing. There just aren't that many people who are college level athletes, and who are transgendered, and who want to complete the required full year of hormonal therapy and testosterone suppression medication so they can compete.

Now, do I think some 15 year old male should just be able to declare himself a female at 10am and compete in a track meet as a female at noon?? NO!!! And, to be honest, I don't know what the rules are for any particular high school league. I hope that you just can't do that. If you can, then I agree, that's a problem. But at the college and Olympic levels it really isn't an issue, and it's been in place for long enough that I don't ever really see it becoming one.

[xubrew]

You know, I was actually moreso calling out the Democrats for saying they were going to be all about supporting something that was already in place to begin with. Nothing quite like saying you're going to do something that someone else has already done and then taking credit for it!

I AM ALL FOR THE THREE POINT SHOT!! That's my platform!! The days of the GOP not allowing it are over!!

[xavierj]

If you can convince yourself that biological males playing girls sports is just fine, then you can probably convince yourself of just about anything. It may not be the most pressing issue in the world, but when it does come up it's blatantly unfair and a bit of a joke. Even Renee Richards said it was an unfair advantage.

Here is another issue on the topic because it happened here in NKY where I live. If you have a female changing to be a male and is taking hormone replacement therapy to develop more manly features, do they allow them to play sports? I mean if you do then you would then probably have to allow all athletes to take performance enhancing drugs. The case here in NKy was a HS female and they ended up not letting her play in actual games with the girls team because she was taking hormone replacement therapy and deemed that it violated the rules of taking performance enhancers.

[xubrew]

Here is another issue on the topic because it happened here in NKY where I live. If you have a female changing to be a male and is taking hormone replacement therapy to develop more manly features, do they allow them to play sports? I mean if you do then you would then probably have to allow all athletes to take performance enhancing drugs. The case here in NKy was a HS female and they ended up not letting her play in actual games with the girls team because she was taking hormone replacement therapy and deemed that it violated the rules of taking performance enhancers.

The rule for the NCAA is that if you're a trans male and taking testosterone you can compete as a male but not as a female. Not sure about anything at the high school level, though.

[xavierj]

The rule for the NCAA is that if you're a trans male and taking testosterone you can compete as a male but not as a female. Not sure about anything at the high school level, though.

So wouldn’t that open up a law suit or a bunch of issues. How can you let one person take roids and compete but not another? I would imagine if someone was suspended because of performance enhancers they could pull the card well they let this guy because he is a trans male so why not me? I think if you are letting one person do it regardless if they are trying to become a male or not then you have to allow everyone to.

[xubrew]

So wouldn’t that open up a law suit or a bunch of issues. How can you let one person take roids and compete but not another? I would imagine if someone was suspended because of performance enhancers they could pull the card well they let this guy because he is a trans male so why not me? I think if you are letting one person do it regardless if they are trying to become a male or not then you have to allow everyone to.

Maybe, but it hasn't yet. I guess we'll see what happens if it ever does, but if I had to guess, it's not exactly an issue that's pending. I still think people are getting all worked up over it because of what the Biden admin said, but in actuality nothing has changed at all. And since no one really cared or worried about this stuff before, I'm not particularly worried about it now. I admit I was a little concerned at first. But, now I'm not. The normal doesn't seem any different today than it did 15 years ago.

There are potential lawsuits that should be FAR more concerning to the NCAA than this right now.

[boozehound]

So apparently Smartmatic Voting Machines is suing Fox News for $2.7B for defamation. This will be an interesting lawsuit - as I don't think Fox can necessarily be held liable for being wrong in their reporting, but potentially could be held liable if there was internal documentation proving that they knew that what they were claiming was false?

I would see some of the individual players in this like Sydney Powell and Rudy Giuliani as being more liable than Fox.

Potentially interesting test case in our current era of aggressive false information.

[paulxu]

I would think Fox would settle, like they did earlier.

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/24/938545344/fox-news-settles-with-seth-richs-parents-for-false-story-claiming-clinton-leaks

[boozehound]

I would think Fox would settle, like they did earlier.

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/24/938545344/fox-news-settles-with-seth-richs-parents-for-false-story-claiming-clinton-leaks

If Smartmartic’s goal is to settle. They may be doing this to try to force the discrediting of the statements made by Powell, Giuliani et al. It would be interesting to see Powell and Giuliani have to defend their lies in a court of law, under oath.

[paulxu]

If Smartmartic’s goal is to settle. They may be doing this to try to force the discrediting of the statements made by Powell, Giuliani et al. It would be interesting to see Powell and Giuliani have to defend their lies in a court of law, under oath.

That beeping sound you hear is the truck backing up. Not sure what happens with Powell and Giuliani. The Fox personalities ducked directly retracting, and left it to an expert that wasn't aware of what they were doing.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/business/fox-smartmatic-news-package/index.html

[paulxu]

Oops.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/media/lou-dobbs-fox-show-canceled/index.html

[bobbiemcgee]

Liked the opening line of their suit:
“The Earth is round. Two plus two equals four. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris won the 2020 election for President and Vice President of the United States. The election was not stolen, rigged, or fixed. These are facts. They are demonstrable and irrefutable.”

[tacopizza885]

Liked the opening line of their suit:
“The Earth is round. Two plus two equals four. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris won the 2020 election for President and Vice President of the United States. The election was not stolen, rigged, or fixed. These are facts. They are demonstrable and irrefutable.”

This is FAKE NEWS. List one CREDIBLE website/source that can prove anything you quoted in that first statement of the lawsuit.

Amazing, we are living in Orville Redenbacher's 1984.

Sheeple.

[Muskie in dayton]

Amazing, we are living in Orville Redenbacher's 1984.

I think you're confusing visionary novelists with snack food makers. Either that or you have an insatiable desire to watch Footloose with a large bowl of popcorn.

[tacopizza885]

I think you're confusing visionary novelists with snack food makers. Either that or you have an insatiable desire to watch Footloose with a large bowl of popcorn.

Given bobbie's "the earth is round. two plus two equals four..." quote from the lawsuit, my comment is an obvious failed attempt at satire. I know a few people that use Orwell's 1984, "sheeple", and many Alex Jones theories in discussions involving politics. I believe a lot of us do.

[Muskie in dayton]

Given bobbie's "the earth is round. two plus two equals four..." quote from the lawsuit, my comment is an obvious failed attempt at satire. I know a few people that use Orwell's 1984, "sheeple", and many Alex Jones theories in discussions involving politics. I believe a lot of us do.
Well, they do pop up lighter and fluffier than the other brands. And nearly every cornel pops. So you certainly have that going for you.

[boozehound]

Given bobbie's "the earth is round. two plus two equals four..." quote from the lawsuit, my comment is an obvious failed attempt at satire. I know a few people that use Orwell's 1984, "sheeple", and many Alex Jones theories in discussions involving politics. I believe a lot of us do.

I enjoyed your satire.

[xubrew]

Qanon believers, Alex Jones listeners, OAN viewers, and everyone else from that ilk being tired of "fake news" SHOULD be sarcastic (or perhaps ironic). Unfortunately, it's reality. Letting stupid batshit beliefs become the accepted norm is why cults can be so dangerous. The fact that elected leaders are actually placating to this, and in some cases are just full blown going along with it, should be far more concerning than what it actually is.

[noteggs]

Well before the shit show starts tomorrow with all the hyperbole from both sides of aisle, wanted to get a quick sense from others on Joe’s governing style so far.

My two cents, if the first 3 weeks are indicative of what we can see moving forward, don’t see a lot of unity and heeling. Using record amount of executive orders and utilizing budget reconciliation to get his massive spending bill through doesn’t give me a lot of hope.

[boozehound]

Well before the shit show starts tomorrow with all the hyperbole from both sides of aisle, wanted to get a quick sense from others on Joe’s governing style so far.

My two cents, if the first 3 weeks are indicative of what we can see moving forward, don’t see a lot of unity and heeling. Using record amount of executive orders and utilizing budget reconciliation to get his massive spending bill through doesn’t give me a lot of hope.

I think it's way to early to tell.

I do agree that there isn't much chance of healing, but I don't think it has much of anything to do with Biden or his governing style. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans can unify their own parties right now, much less working across the aisle with the other side. The Democrats will never be progressive enough for the 'woke wing' of the party and the Republicans won't be sane as long as Donald Trump has any role in their party.

[STL_XUfan]

Well before the shit show starts tomorrow with all the hyperbole from both sides of aisle, wanted to get a quick sense from others on Joe’s governing style so far.

My two cents, if the first 3 weeks are indicative of what we can see moving forward, don’t see a lot of unity and heeling. Using record amount of executive orders and utilizing budget reconciliation to get his massive spending bill through doesn’t give me a lot of hope.

The significant decrease in activity of this thread, at least seems to comport with his governing style being boring. And I think that is a change for the better.

[bigdiggins]

Well before the shit show starts tomorrow with all the hyperbole from both sides of aisle, wanted to get a quick sense from others on Joe’s governing style so far.

My two cents, if the first 3 weeks are indicative of what we can see moving forward, don’t see a lot of unity and heeling. Using record amount of executive orders and utilizing budget reconciliation to get his massive spending bill through doesn’t give me a lot of hope.

Apparently his governing style is no-one should actually be responsible for their own life choices. The government's role is to absolve you of your responsibility to pay your own debts, live within your means and still support your children, have a reason to come to the US other than wanting to get on the US welfare system etc. As the mythical "rich" can't possibly pay for it, the upper middle class who have tried to make the right decisions and get ahead will pay for it instead.

[noteggs]

The significant decrease in activity of this thread, at least seems to comport with his governing style being boring. And I think that is a change for the better.

As for activity of thread, think is just the ebb and flow on here. People get heated and some say wild stuff and posting stops only to start back up a week or two later. Yes his characteristic style is boring which is a good thing vs the last four years. But his style on creating policy is a bit concerning at this point. Go alone President and party is not exactly a good form of government IMO. Oh well, at least we know Democrats can’t use the budget reconciliation again this year.

[Strange Brew]

The significant decrease in activity of this thread, at least seems to comport with his governing style being boring. And I think that is a change for the better.

Or some of us put people on ignore...

[bobbiemcgee]

Oh well, at least we know Democrats can’t use the budget reconciliation again this year.

Actually, they get two this calendar year:

"Lucky for Democrats, Congress did not enact a budget resolution for the current 2021 fiscal year. That means two reconciliation bills can be enacted this calendar year (one for this fiscal year and one for the next)."

[boozehound]

As for activity of thread, think is just the ebb and flow on here. People get heated and some say wild stuff and posting stops only to start back up a week or two later. Yes his characteristic style is boring which is a good thing vs the last four years. But his style on creating policy is a bit concerning at this point. Go alone President and party is not exactly a good form of government IMO. Oh well, at least we know Democrats can’t use the budget reconciliation again this year.

In all honesty, then you should consider writing your congressmen and urging them to work together for the good of the American people. They seem to have made a political calculus that doing so is to their detriment.

I'm really not up in arms about anything that Biden is doing yet, other than the fact that I don't think a $15 minimum wage should be passed as part of reconciliation. I'm not sure I'm completely against a $15 minimum wage - however the concept of a minimum wage at the Federal level is not something I'm crazy about due to the extreme discrepancy in cost of living across different states and cities. If you are in San Francisco $15 is nothing, but if you are in rural Louisiana you can live a pretty decent life on that. I also think it has the potential to impact small businesses and should not be taken lightly and shoved through as part of a reconciliation package.

[94GRAD]

In all honesty, then you should consider writing your congressmen and urging them to work together for the good of the American people. They seem to have made a political calculus that doing so is to their detriment.

I'm really not up in arms about anything that Biden is doing yet, other than the fact that I don't think a $15 minimum wage should be passed as part of reconciliation. I'm not sure I'm completely against a $15 minimum wage - however the concept of a minimum wage at the Federal level is not something I'm crazy about due to the extreme discrepancy in cost of living across different states and cities. If you are in San Francisco $15 is nothing, but if you are in rural Louisiana you can live a pretty decent life on that. I also think it has the potential to impact small businesses and should not be taken lightly and shoved through as part of a reconciliation package.

Not sure everyone knows, but we employers have to add 6.2% to SS and 1.45% to Medicare. A $15 min wage is effectively $16.15 our cost.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Or some of us put people on ignore...

This.

Congratulations, you made the cut. So far ...

[Mrs. Garrett]

In all honesty, then you should consider writing your congressmen and urging them to work together for the good of the American people. They seem to have made a political calculus that doing so is to their detriment.

I'm really not up in arms about anything that Biden is doing yet, other than the fact that I don't think a $15 minimum wage should be passed as part of reconciliation. I'm not sure I'm completely against a $15 minimum wage - however the concept of a minimum wage at the Federal level is not something I'm crazy about due to the extreme discrepancy in cost of living across different states and cities. If you are in San Francisco $15 is nothing, but if you are in rural Louisiana you can live a pretty decent life on that. I also think it has the potential to impact small businesses and should not be taken lightly and shoved through as part of a reconciliation package.

I believe that there are some people not making $15 an hour that should be.

There should also be a scale based on age. Do high school kids working their first job get the same as a minimum wage worker in their 40s? I guess that probably open up legal issues with ageism when employers start hiring only kids.

Guess I'm old school as I always though of minimum wage jobs as something you did when you were younger for spending money with the goal of progressing to a living wage as you got older.

On the other hand there are a lot of minimum wage jobs that paying $15 an hour for makes no sense. I also think of small businesses that this could hurt. More factors have to be taken into account than everyone gets $15 an hour, no questions asked.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Not sure everyone knows, but we employers have to add 6.2% to SS and 1.45% to Medicare. A $15 min wage is effectively $16.15 our cost.

I don't think legislators in favor of this are thinking about the impact to small businesses.

[GoMuskies]

Minimum wage is an absurd political issue in its current form. It shouldn't be $7.50 or whatever ridiculous thing it is now. And it certainly shouldn't be $15 everywhere in the US. If you simply indexed it to inflation from its beginning, it would be about $10.50 right now. Move it there, update it every year based on the change in the CPI.....and you're done. Never talk about it again.

[xu82]

This.

Congratulations, you made the cut. So far ...

That almost sounds like a challenge!!!

[boozehound]

I believe that there are some people not making $15 an hour that should be.

There should also be a scale based on age. Do high school kids working their first job get the same as a minimum wage worker in their 40s? I guess that probably open up legal issues with ageism when employers start hiring only kids.

Guess I'm old school as I always though of minimum wage jobs as something you did when you were younger for spending money with the goal of progressing to a living wage as you got older.

On the other hand there are a lot of minimum wage jobs that paying $15 an hour for makes no sense. I also think of small businesses that this could hurt. More factors have to be taken into account than everyone gets $15 an hour, no questions asked.

Exactly. The sliding scale based on age is an interesting idea, but carries a potential unintended consequence of incenting business to hire high school and college kids at the expense of older workers, so that would need to be accounted for.

It's all well and good for Bernie Sanders to say "McDonalds makes $1B per year but pays workers an average of $8/hr", but there are a ton of small businesses that aren't particularly lucrative and can't necessarily stomach a doubling of minimum wage.

All this goes to further highlight that this is a complex issue that shouldn't be buried in a budget bill and pushed through via reconciliation.

[bigdiggins]

Exactly. The sliding scale based on age is an interesting idea, but carries a potential unintended consequence of incenting business to hire high school and college kids at the expense of older workers, so that would need to be accounted for.

It's all well and good for Bernie Sanders to say "McDonalds makes $1B per year but pays workers an average of $8/hr", but there are a ton of small businesses that aren't particularly lucrative and can't necessarily stomach a doubling of minimum wage.

All this goes to further highlight that this is a complex issue that shouldn't be buried in a budget bill and pushed through via reconciliation.

Depends how old, as the scale would need to slide both ways. You think the 70 yr old starter at the golf course, or most of the staff at Culvers, is working there for a living wage.. Those folks are retired and working for some camaraderie, get out of the house a few hours a week, pocket money, etc.

[bjf123]

I don't think legislators in favor of this are thinking about the impact to small businesses.

I can guarantee it. When they talk about a $15 minimum wage, they’re only thinking about Walmart, McDonalds, etc. as the big bad greedy businesses making millions and abusing their workers. They have no idea how this will crush businesses whose annual revenue is not even a million dollars. They can’t afford an almost doubling of what is likely one of their highest operating costs. Even if you phase it in over 3-5 years, can they all raise prices enough to cover this? Probably not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[noteggs]

I don't think legislators in favor of this are thinking about the impact to small businesses.

Good way to put it. Think you’re being a little bit more generous than me though because I don’t think they truly care. Now they are thinking about the additional revenue resources to those programs BJ mentioned.

[MADXSTER]

Guess I'm old school as I always though of minimum wage jobs as something you did when you were younger for spending money with the goal of progressing to a living wage as you got older.



I worked with two sisters from San Diego a while back. They told me that they had never seen high school kids working in fast food restaurants until they moved to Cincinnati. They thought it was very odd to see kids serving and taking orders from people. Said in San Diego/California only adults work in fast food and will take whatever job they can get to raise a family. I always wondered were the kids get jobs.

[Strange Brew]

Good way to put it. Think you’re being a little bit more generous than me though because I don’t think they truly care. Now they are thinking about the additional revenue resources to those programs BJ mentioned.

It’s moot anyway as wages are not the jurisdiction of the Federal Government. It’s up to the States at best.

[paulxu]

There is a large rally going on now in DC, and the president is going to speak to them. Rather than help a good transition, he continues to spew false narratives after 60+ courts have thrown out the bogus challenges. He is making us look like a tinpot dictatorship that doesn't respect its own rules. I suspect they'll march to the Capital and try to disrupt the proceedings. Hopefully he won't encourage violence since the crowd doesn't seem to be grounded in the reality of our election results.

That was from 10:41 on the morning of the 6th.
I suppose now the question is will he be held accountable. I suspect that hope is also faint.

[boozehound]

That was from 10:41 on the morning of the 6th.
I suppose now the question is will he be held accountable. I suspect that hope is also faint.

Nikki Haley's comments are encouraging, but also very late. It's hard to believe that she (and others) didn't have an idea of where this was headed until lunatics actually stormed the Capitol. At least she is coming out and actually saying 'we were wrong for following him', though.

The only way he gets convicted is if Mitch signals he will vote to convict. I would assign less than 10% odds to that, although at least he isn't already suggesting that he is unwilling to consider a conviction. I really do think it may be in their best interests to convict Trump and banish him.

[Xville]

That was from 10:41 on the morning of the 6th.
I suppose now the question is will he be held accountable. I suspect that hope is also faint.

I’m over here wondering if all the people in the media and politicians that compared that administration to hitler and nazi Germany are going to be cancelled like Gina carano.

Inciting a riot is a stretch whether you trump haters believe it or not. Others have said basically the exact same crap..Kamala anyone? It isn’t trump’s fault that crazy people like horn dude who is a professional protestor and rioter showed up. Personal responsibility.

With all that said, trump is a egotistical lunatic who I do hope never touches the Republican Party again.

[GoMuskies]

Trumps/Q vs. the Lincoln Project pedos. Tough call for Republicans going forward.

[xuwillie]

Yes I would argue Kamala said much worse. It’s just time to move on from all of this. Can liberals do that?

[paulxu]

Can America move on from the sitting president claiming 2 months after the election that it was a fraud and stolen, and encouraging his supporters to fight like hell to overturn the results?
Your great-grandchildren will be reading about our Capital being taken over for the second time since 1812, on Jan 6, 2021.

[GoMuskies]

I guess it depends on who wins the war with Eastasia and gets to write the history books.

[paulxu]

I guess it depends on who wins the war with Eastasia and gets to write the history books.

Good point.

[boozehound]

Yes I would argue Kamala said much worse. It’s just time to move on from all of this. Can liberals do that?

I'm fine with moving on from it, but I do think that we move from it with a universal shared understanding that this shit was bad, was potentially almost really bad, and needs to not happen again. Trump and his team set an extremely dangerous precedent with respect to how a one should handle an election loss. We are fortunate that his 'legal team' were a bunch of completely inept morons.

Shit, people can't even condemn Trump without bringing up some comments that Kamala Harris made. I don't equate what random Senators or VP candidates say, with what a sitting President says if she (God forbid) becomes President, I'll worry about about it. I don't like her comments on a variety of things, but I don't see how any of it is exculpatory with respect to Trump.

I absolutely understand why Republicans want to move on from this, but we are barely a month out from the Capitol being stormed by a bunch of lunatics who just minutes earlier had heard from the sitting President at a rally that he was (for some reason) having right up the street from the Capitol building. It takes more than a month for that kind of shit to go away. And it should.

[bjf123]

Yes I would argue Kamala said much worse. It’s just time to move on from all of this. Can liberals do that?

That’s easy. No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xuwillie]

I'm fine with moving on from it, but I do think that we move from it with a universal shared understanding that this shit was bad, was potentially almost really bad, and needs to not happen again. Trump and his team set an extremely dangerous precedent with respect to how a one should handle an election loss. We are fortunate that his 'legal team' were a bunch of completely inept morons.

Shit, people can't even condemn Trump without bringing up some comments that Kamala Harris made. I don't equate what random Senators or VP candidates say, with what a sitting President says if she (God forbid) becomes President, I'll worry about about it. I don't like her comments on a variety of things, but I don't see how any of it is exculpatory with respect to Trump.

I absolutely understand why Republicans want to move on from this, but we are barely a month out from the Capitol being stormed by a bunch of lunatics who just minutes earlier had heard from the sitting President at a rally that he was (for some reason) having right up the street from the Capitol building. It takes more than a month for that kind of shit to go away. And it should.

But this is the problem I see right now, the hypocrisy that continues. Now its ok that all the hate that was thrown out the last 2 years by far left liberal politicians is ok because they weren't the sitting president? I again go back to none of its good and both sides need to be called out for it. How about impeachment of Trump if we can get rid of the 5 or 6 liberals that where calling to fight like hell. Id be good with that

[bobbiemcgee]

But this is the problem I see right now, the hypocrisy that continues. Now its ok that all the hate that was thrown out the last 2 years by far left liberal politicians is ok because they weren't the sitting president? I again go back to none of its good and both sides need to be called out for it. How about impeachment of Trump if we can get rid of the 5 or 6 liberals that where calling to fight like hell. Id be good with that

Well, you have your wonderful pack of of liars in Hawley, Graham and Cruz to steer the party. Looks like Haley has come to her senses.

[Strange Brew]

But this is the problem I see right now, the hypocrisy that continues. Now its ok that all the hate that was thrown out the last 2 years by far left liberal politicians is ok because they weren't the sitting president? I again go back to none of its good and both sides need to be called out for it. How about impeachment of Trump if we can get rid of the 5 or 6 liberals that where calling to fight like hell. Id be good with that

To understand the Left you must understand the Jack Nicholson quote on women from As Good As it Gets.

When I write about a woman I, “think of a man and take away all reason and accountability”.

[boozehound]

But this is the problem I see right now, the hypocrisy that continues. Now its ok that all the hate that was thrown out the last 2 years by far left liberal politicians is ok because they weren't the sitting president? I again go back to none of its good and both sides need to be called out for it. How about impeachment of Trump if we can get rid of the 5 or 6 liberals that where calling to fight like hell. Id be good with that

Sure. Absolutely. I'll give you Pelosi, too.

I continue to think it's a completely ridiculous false equivalency though, as I at least, have a different standard of conduct for the President than I do for members of Congress.

[Xville]

Sure. Absolutely. I'll give you Pelosi, too.

I continue to think it's a completely ridiculous false equivalency though, as I at least, have a different standard of conduct for the President than I do for members of Congress.

Why? I don't.....i do expect 90% of them to be complete buffoons and egotistical a holes though.

[boozehound]

Why? I don't.....i do expect 90% of them to be complete buffoons and egotistical a holes though.

I honestly don't know how to answer that. We take one person and elect them to the highest office in the land. The reasonable expectation, I would think, is that they are the best and most qualified. With responsibility comes accountability.

It's the same principle in business. I hold my sales directors to a much higher standard than I hold my sales reps to. In pretty much every way. You don't like it, stay a sales rep. I expect leadership from my directors, just like I do from my President.

[xuwillie]

Well, you have your wonderful pack of of liars in Hawley, Graham and Cruz to steer the party. Looks like Haley has come to her senses.


Think we can all agree most politicians LIE. Not sure we are having the same argument here

[Mrs. Garrett]

Sure. Absolutely. I'll give you Pelosi, too.

I continue to think it's a completely ridiculous false equivalency though, as I at least, have a different standard of conduct for the President than I do for members of Congress.

I think I have the same standard for Congress that I do for the Presidency. We just had a President leave office who spent most of his time golfing and tweeting conspiracy theories. We have a freshman House Member who believes the wild fires were started by not ordinary lasers, but Jewish Space Lasers. We've got AOC and Bernie who think we should just hand everything to everyone. Somehow the fringe elements of both parties seem to be winning.

Politics needs to move back to the middle and work on solutions that are feasible.

I'm most disgusted that politicians, who were there aren't taking the attack on the Capitol seriously. To me they are traitors. Some of them were co-conspirators. And tired of the comparisons to the BLM protests on some shitty street in Kenosha. If Congress isn't made up of patriots then we're pretty much screwed.

[bobbiemcgee]

Think we can all agree most politicians LIE
Still supporting the "Big LIE" with Hawley, Graham and Cruz, I assume?

[GoMuskies]

Impeachment 2.0 ends pretty much the same way as Impeachment 1.0. I'm shocked.

[waggy]

Saw a headline that Bernie Sanders has called the MLB greedy for cutting a bunch of minor league teams.

[boozehound]

Impeachment 2.0 ends pretty much the same way as Impeachment 1.0. I'm shocked.

I do think McConnell's speech after the fact was interesting. They are clearly trying to set the stage for a situation in which they don't alienate Trump's base too much by convicting him, but also don't allow Senators in purple states to get tied too directly to supporting Trump's actions. We won't really know until 2022 if it works for them, and a lot of it probably hinges on how things go between now and then for Biden as well as what Trump does between now and then.

I still remain skeptical that they can control Trump over any long time horizon. The list of people that have trusted Trump and gotten burned appears much longer than the list of people who he hasn't screwed over.

[bleedXblue]

Trump running again would be a colossal mistake. He has a great base, but he is also hated by the left and his act has grown stale. All he had to do was play the game, get off Twitter and treat COVID with a little more seriousness and compassion.

The next pair that runs can play off many of Trump's policies that still and will always appeal to many American's.

[Xville]

I really hope Hogan runs in '24. He seems to have a functioning brain and not afraid to break rank within his party if need be.

[bleedXblue]

I really hope Hogan runs in '24. He seems to have a functioning brain and not afraid to break rank within his party if need be.

The Maryland Governor?

[Xville]

The Maryland Governor?

Yep. I'm a big fan.

[GoMuskies]

If the Republicans picked today, it would probably be DeSantis.

[boozehound]

If the Republicans picked today, it would probably be DeSantis.

If they picked 4 years ago, it probably would have been Jeb Bush.

I agree though RE: DeSantis. Maybe Nikki Haley?

I don't think Trump will run again, but I could see someone from his inner circle running. Maybe DeSantis is that guy. The part that's going to be tough to watch is all the Republican Presidential hopefuls continuing to kiss Trump's ass for 4 more years.

[Juice]

If they picked 4 years ago, it probably would have been Jeb Bush.

I agree though RE: DeSantis. Maybe Nikki Haley?

I don't think Trump will run again, but I could see someone from his inner circle running. Maybe DeSantis is that guy. The part that's going to be tough to watch is all the Republican Presidential hopefuls continuing to kiss Trump's ass for 4 more years.

Republicans don't like Nikki Haley. She will run but will be kicked aside like Jeb.

[GoMuskies]

Maybe Tulsi Gabbard can tweak a few of her policy positions and run as a Republican. She seemed to get more traction with Republicans than Democrats in 2020. Andrew Yang also has the crossover appeal to run as a Republican, but he's spent the last year sucking up to the Democratic Party establishment to bolster his political future and in an attempt to become mayor of New York City.

[Juice]

Maybe Tulsi Gabbard can tweak a few of her policy positions and run as a Republican. She seemed to get more traction with Republicans than Democrats in 2020. Andrew Yang also has the crossover appeal to run as a Republican, but he's spent the last year sucking up to the Democratic Party establishment to bolster his political future and in an attempt to become mayor of New York City.

Tulsi wants universal health care, supports abortion, and universal basic income. She also supports making college free for families below a certain income. She has spoken positively about the green new deal. She is awful on gun rights.

She has some views that are similar with republicans but she's no republican. Republicans just liked it when she wrecked house during the debates.

[bleedXblue]

Maybe Tulsi Gabbard can tweak a few of her policy positions and run as a Republican. She seemed to get more traction with Republicans than Democrats in 2020. Andrew Yang also has the crossover appeal to run as a Republican, but he's spent the last year sucking up to the Democratic Party establishment to bolster his political future and in an attempt to become mayor of New York City.

There is not a chance in hell that the republicans won't pull a ticket together capitalizing on the MAGA theme with a more refined approach.

[GoMuskies]

There is not a chance in hell that the republicans won't pull a ticket together capitalizing on the MAGA theme with a more refined approach.

I'm sure that's right, but one can hope!

[paulxu]

The Donald is not happy with Mitch, who probably could have swung 10 more votes to convict, but instead voted to acquit with most of his caucus.
Can't imagine the reception if he had voted the other way.

[Strange Brew]

At least the big lie of very fine people was finally put to rest.

This and Russia. Lots of people that bought these big lies are idiots.

[bobbiemcgee]

At least the big lie of very fine people was finally put to rest.

This and Russia. Lots of people that bought these big lies are idiots.

Yep. hopefully all those trump rioters will be charged with treason.

[XU 87]

RIP Rush Limbaugh.

[GoMuskies]

RIP Rush Limbaugh.

Oh no, got to avoid Twitter today. People dancing on graves is rarely pretty.

[Strange Brew]

So, now genocide is just a part of Chinese culture. Goodness, get Xiden a net.

[bobbiemcgee]

All the people he stiffed came out to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irk6jGe0DXQ

[STL_XUfan]

I want to thank Ted Cruz for giving us an old fashioned dumb political scandal that really means nothing, but it is fun to watch the slow motion car wreck.

The original trip, probably a dumb idea but whatever.
Blaming the trip on your children, now we are heating up.
Lying about your itinerary when the airline has already leaked your original itinerary, now we are cooking with fire.
Having multiple of your friends leak your group chat planning the trip to The NY Times, just amazing.

Lindsay Graham put it best: "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you,"

[Strange Brew]

I want to thank Ted Cruz for giving us an old fashioned dumb political scandal that really means nothing, but it is fun to watch the slow motion car wreck.

The original trip, probably a dumb idea but whatever.
Blaming the trip on your children, now we are heating up.
Lying about your itinerary when the airline has already leaked your original itinerary, now we are cooking with fire.
Having multiple of your friends leak your group chat planning the trip to The NY Times, just amazing.

Lindsay Graham put it best: "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you,"

There’s a very sad spokesperson in DC or TX today...

[boozehound]

I want to thank Ted Cruz for giving us an old fashioned dumb political scandal that really means nothing, but it is fun to watch the slow motion car wreck.

The original trip, probably a dumb idea but whatever.
Blaming the trip on your children, now we are heating up.
Lying about your itinerary when the airline has already leaked your original itinerary, now we are cooking with fire.
Having multiple of your friends leak your group chat planning the trip to The NY Times, just amazing.

Lindsay Graham put it best: "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you,"

The fact that it's Ted Cruz is just an added bonus.

[GoMuskies]

Ted Cruz hired a staffer with some pretty solid Twitter game. Otherwise, I'm not sure what he brings to the table.

[Strange Brew]

5 DC officers suspended and 35 under investigation for allowing/helping protesters into the Capitol. Hate to see officers in trouble but some of the footage looked strange so I get the investigation.

[paulxu]

Today's fun: the possibility of Space Lasers coming to the Senate floor:


And there is downright panic among national party leaders that, in Georgia, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene will run against former Republican Sen. David Perdue for the Senate seat. The nomination of Greene, who has publicly espoused conspiracy theories in the past, could diminish the Republican Party's chances of beating Democratic Sen. Raphael Warnock.

[Strange Brew]

Today's fun: the possibility of Space Lasers coming to the Senate floor:

Space lasers scared the Russian’s more than Herb Brooks behind the boards!

[xubrew]

I want to thank Ted Cruz for giving us an old fashioned dumb political scandal that really means nothing, but it is fun to watch the slow motion car wreck.

The original trip, probably a dumb idea but whatever.
Blaming the trip on your children, now we are heating up.
Lying about your itinerary when the airline has already leaked your original itinerary, now we are cooking with fire.
Having multiple of your friends leak your group chat planning the trip to The NY Times, just amazing.

Lindsay Graham put it best: "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you,"

Yeah, it all means nothing.

Then again, this is the heroic story of how a brave Texan traveled over 2,000 miles to find warmth and shelter for his family in the midst of a great storm! This should be an inspiration for us all!!

[STL_XUfan]

Yeah, it all means nothing.

Then again, this is the heroic story of how a brave Texan traveled over 2,000 miles to find warmth and shelter for his family in the midst of a great storm! This should be an inspiration for us all!!

He was simply a desperate father seeing his children face unimaginable conditions that put their health and safety in risk. He did what any parent would do in that situation, he made the difficult choice to gather up his children and flee across the US/Mexico border in the hopes of finding safety for his children. Further, to ensure they were safe in journey, he brought along a caravan of other families facing these same terrible condition. It really was a heroes journey.

[paulxu]

Mexico should build a wall...and have Texans pay for it.
Would keep bearded, displaced, homeless Cubans and their families out.

[GoMuskies]

Mexico should build a wall...and have Texans pay for it.
Would keep bearded, displaced, homeless Cubans and their families out.

I don't think Mexico wants to keep rich American tourists out.

[paulxu]

I don't think Mexico wants to keep rich American tourists out.

Hmm...I'm afraid you have a good point.

[xu82]

I don't think Mexico wants to keep rich American tourists out.

It’s not just tourists! My BIL had regular work in Mexico for a BIG company. He had full time security for a reason. If you don’t let them in, you can’t kidnap them and hold them for ransom!

[bobbiemcgee]

Matt Gaetz tweeted from the Florida Beach that Cruz shouldn't have apologized.

[paulxu]

Help Mike out here. Buy a pillow.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/mypillow-guy-claims-hes-losing-millions-after-pushing-election-falsehoods

[xubrew]

Matt Gaetz tweeted from the Florida Beach that Cruz shouldn't have apologized.

Well, he really sucks at apologizing, so maybe he shouldn't have.

Also, I think the uproar is a little overkill. I mean, if someone like Ted Cruz left my state, or even better left the country, I'd be THRILLED!!!

[Strange Brew]

Help Mike out here. Buy a pillow.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/mypillow-guy-claims-hes-losing-millions-after-pushing-election-falsehoods

I just might.

I’m really impressed by the balanced reporting you post here Paul. It’s rare to find such amazing journalism these days. Please keep providing insightful, enlightening content.

[paulxu]

You're welcome. As soon as I find someone from the other side being sued for a billion for spreading lies about the election, I'll post it right here.

[Smails]

So, now genocide is just a part of Chinese culture. Goodness, get Xiden a net.

Nothing to see here..move along

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/americas/biden-takes-heat-after-calling-uighurmuslim-genocide-different-norm

[Xville]

Nothing to see here..move along

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/americas/biden-takes-heat-after-calling-uighurmuslim-genocide-different-norm

I think this is one of those things that much like when Trump said basically anything, the media would pounce and it was a nothing burger.

Not saying you, but I think there are a lot of people out there, that spend their day trying to find something to be outraged about that ends up being nothing. Hell, there was an entire economy built up for that when Trump was president.

[Strange Brew]

I think this is one of those things that much like when Trump said basically anything, the media would pounce and it was a nothing burger.

Not saying you, but I think there are a lot of people out there, that spend their day trying to find something to be outraged about that ends up being nothing. Hell, there was an entire economy built up for that when Trump was president.

So Biden’s policy on China’s human rights abuses is a nothingburger?

[Xville]

So Biden’s policy on China’s human rights abuses is a nothingburger?

That's not what I said, and this perfectly illustrates my point. Biden said one thing, and someone gets a hold of it and it is sound the alarms, Biden is a genocidal apologist!! It is basically the same as when Trump said something, and it was Trump is a North Korean sympathizer!

[boozehound]

That's not what I said, and this perfectly illustrates my point. Biden said one thing, and someone gets a hold of it and it is sound the alarms, Biden is a genocidal apologist!! It is basically the same as when Trump said something, and it was Trump is a North Korean sympathizer!

Exactly. You can do this all day long with any President and any one of a whole host of countries. In this specific instance it sounds like Biden, and his State Department, have said that there would be repercussions to China for human rights violations on multiple fronts, including the treatment of Uighurs. We don't know what those are, but to be honest it's not on the list of things that I'm particularly worried about right now. I'm more focused on Domestic policy at the moment, as I think we have major issues on the home front to address.

It's interesting that so many people who praised Donald Trump's non-interventionist stance with respect to foreign countries' infighting would seem to take a very different approach to Joe Biden having a relatively non-interventionist stance to foreign countries' infighting. I wonder what could possibly explain that double standard?

Obviously what is happening his horrible, and similarly horrible things are happening all over the globe (Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe, India, North Korea). I would love it if America could put a stop to all of it, but I just don't see how. Generally when we have tried, it has had negative unintended consequences.

[bobbiemcgee]

You're welcome. As soon as I find someone from the other side being sued for a billion for spreading lies about the election, I'll post it right here.

http://www.shutupandtakemymoney.com/my-pillow-guy-trump-butt-pillow-meme/

[Strange Brew]

Exactly. You can do this all day long with any President and any one of a whole host of countries. In this specific instance it sounds like Biden, and his State Department, have said that there would be repercussions to China for human rights violations on multiple fronts, including the treatment of Uighurs. We don't know what those are, but to be honest it's not on the list of things that I'm particularly worried about right now. I'm more focused on Domestic policy at the moment, as I think we have major issues on the home front to address.

It's interesting that so many people who praised Donald Trump's non-interventionist stance with respect to foreign countries' infighting would seem to take a very different approach to Joe Biden having a relatively non-interventionist stance to foreign countries' infighting. I wonder what could possibly explain that double standard?

Obviously what is happening his horrible, and similarly horrible things are happening all over the globe (Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe, India, North Korea). I would love it if America could put a stop to all of it, but I just don't see how. Generally when we have tried, it has had negative unintended consequences.

Um, Trump was pretty darn tough on China policy wise. He used trade and sanctions and not the military.

[boozehound]

Um, Trump was pretty darn tough on China policy wise. He used trade and sanctions and not the military.

Right. Specifically China. Less so North Korea for example. My guess is that it had very little to do with his outrage at their treatment of the Uighurs, and a lot more to do with economic rivalry, intellectual property, etc. It's one of his policy stances that I most supported, although I felt it would have been more effective if he had brought along a coalition of allies instead of going it alone.

[GoMuskies]

What else was Trump supposed to do to NK short of attacking them?

[boozehound]

Not praising them?

If we are going to critique Biden's choice of words regarding China's treatment of Uighurs, then Trump's intermittent (but repeated) flattery as well as his boasting about how good of a relationship he had with Kim Jong Un would seem to be in a similar vein.

I don't really give a shit about either one, TBH. I'd like to see Biden keep the pressure on China, but mostly for economic reasons. To that end I'm more interested to see how his foreign policy unfolds than anything else.

[Smails]

but to be honest it's not on the list of things that I'm particularly worried about right now. I'm more focused on Domestic policy at the moment, as I think we have major issues on the home front to address.


That almost sounds like an 'America First' policy...lol #closettrumper

*sarcasm font*

[boozehound]

That almost sounds like an 'America First' policy...lol #closettrumper

*sarcasm font*

I mostly do support an America First policy, within reason. I don't think we should go out of our way to be dicks about it, though. That's what I found frustrating about many of Trump's policies that I otherwise (somewhat) agreed with. There is a performative dickishness about it that I thought was unnecessary and ultimately hurt our cause.

Having said that, I think that there is a benefit to not systematically alienating our allies for no real reason or to no end. I also do think there is some amount of benefit to global leadership. It's not an either/or, and when we reduce our investment and involvement in unnecessary foreign affairs we should try to do so in a way that retains the respect of our allies in the developed world.

For example: Should we send (reasonable) aid to war torn hell holes? Yes. Should we intervene to try to stop them from being war torn hell holes? No, because it pretty much never works.

[xuphan]

That almost sounds like an 'America First' policy...lol #closettrumper

*sarcasm font*

Did Trump ever release his tax records like he said he would? Would love to see what they look like.

[Smails]

Did Trump ever release his tax records like he said he would? Would love to see what they look like.

Don't know..don't care

[GoMuskies]

Did Trump ever release his tax records like he said he would? Would love to see what they look like.

I believe he has been given no choice but to release them to the US attorney in NY.

[boozehound]

Don't know..don't care

I'm honestly curious as to why some people don't care. Is it just the 'my side vs your side' stuff, or do you really think that we just should do away with Presidential candidates releasing their tax returns? What is the harm in them doing it / what is the benefit to the Country in them not doing it?

Personally I would like to see deep financial disclosures (including tax returns) for every Presidential candidate so that we can get an idea as to who they owe money to, who the receive money from, etc. as those things could give an outside party leverage over that individual. It seems like a relatively basic thing to want to know about the person you elect to lead your Country.

[Strange Brew]

I'm honestly curious as to why some people don't care. Is it just the 'my side vs your side' stuff, or do you really think that we just should do away with Presidential candidates releasing their tax returns? What is the harm in them doing it / what is the benefit to the Country in them not doing it?

Personally I would like to see deep financial disclosures (including tax returns) for every Presidential candidate so that we can get an idea as to who they owe money to, who the receive money from, etc. as those things could give an outside party leverage over that individual. It seems like a relatively basic thing to want to know about the person you elect to lead your Country.

There’s no requirement so why are we belaboring it. I wouldn’t release mine. There’s no point.

[boozehound]

There’s no requirement so why are we belaboring it. I wouldn’t release mine. There’s no point.

We as a voter base sort of decide the rules based on what we are willing to tolerate, don't we? I'd argue that what we chose to tolerate over time is important. As we continue to lower the bar we open ourselves up to more risk in terms of who we elect to be President. That seems at least a little important.

Maybe Trump didn't have anything to hide. Will the next guy be the same? What about the one after that?

I asked why don't you care, and I'm not sure you answered the question, unless the answer simply is 'there is no requirement' with no further thought given? If that is the case, I would mention that there are many thing not explicitly forbidden for a Presidential candidate that we probably shouldn't start to tolerate as a Nation. I'm pretty sure that there is no requirement saying a convicted pedophile can't run for President, but it's going to be a major issue for me as a voter.

[Strange Brew]

We as a voter base sort of decide the rules based on what we are willing to tolerate, don't we? I'd argue that what we chose to tolerate over time is important. As we continue to lower the bar we open ourselves up to more risk in terms of who we elect to be President. That seems at least a little important.

Maybe Trump didn't have anything to hide. Will the next guy be the same? What about the one after that?

I asked why don't you care, and I'm not sure you answered the question, unless the answer simply is 'there is no requirement' with no further thought given? If that is the case, I would mention that there are many thing not explicitly forbidden for a Presidential candidate that we probably shouldn't start to tolerate as a Nation. I'm pretty sure that there is no requirement saying a convicted pedophile can't run for President, but it's going to be a major issue for me as a voter.

I don’t care because I’m not into crime phishing. It only gives people something to complain about. Also, one or some of his taxes were released and he paid more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. So, no I don’t care because he pays a ton of taxes.

[xuphan]

I don’t care because I’m not into crime phishing. It only gives people something to complain about. Also, one or some of his taxes were released and he paid more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. So, no I don’t care because he pays a ton of taxes.

I just find it interesting why he would tell the public that he would have no problem making his tax record public during the whole Obama citizenship debate and now he is fighting it to the Supreme Court. I just don’t get why he would say he would do something and then backtrack. Seems like a shady thing to do. I would take it a step further and have every member of Congress be made to release their tax records.

[bjf123]

I believe he has been given no choice but to release them to the US attorney in NY.

How long after that until the New York Times has them above the fold?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobbiemcgee]

What else was Trump supposed to do to NK short of attacking them?

Send then AF I.

[boozehound]

I just find it interesting why he would tell the public that he would have no problem making his tax record public during the whole Obama citizenship debate and now he is fighting it to the Supreme Court. I just don’t get why he would say he would do something and then backtrack. Seems like a shady thing to do. I would take it a step further and have every member of Congress be made to release their tax records.

That's one of his signature moves. I believe that back in the day he was known to publicly claim charitable donations that didn't always actually happen. In this case I think that he said he would release his tax returns when he didn't think he was actually going to get the nomination. Then he did, but decided not to because there is something there he didn't want people to see.

At this point I don't really care about personally seeing Trump's tax returns, but I don't really want that norm destroyed for future candidates because it hurts our ability as a public to thoroughly vet them.

[Smails]

I'm honestly curious as to why some people don't care. .

I just don't give a shit. It has never mattered to me and never will. The same way some people care about certain social issues and others don't. We all have priorities and things that matter to us when it comes to how we align ourselves politically. Tax returns ring hollow to me.

[bobbiemcgee]

I prefer to have a POTUS who is not a tax cheat. At various times, he said he would release his returns. He lied, of course, and now the SCOTUS has to do it for him.

[xuwillie]

Do you really think he's a tax cheat and IRS hasn't caught him yet? I honestly think he isn't as good as a business man and he doesn't want that out there for everyone to know. And at that point I could care less as well what they show

[Mrs. Garrett]

Do you really think he's a tax cheat and IRS hasn't caught him yet? I honestly think he isn't as good as a business man and he doesn't want that out there for everyone to know. And at that point I could care less as well what they show

Aren't they investigating this now? I thought part of the NY case was that he would value assets differently when tryin to obtain a loan vs filing his tax return.

Also, I believe the IRS audit is related to a $72 million tax refund he claimed. And in true IRS fashion they cut him a $72 million refund check and then were like, wait a minute this doesn't seem right. I mean I would investigate and then cut the check, but that's just me.

I really think he didn't want to release them because he's not as wealthy as he claims to be. I'll let those investigating be the judge.

[Masterofreality]

Revisiting an old discussion, PaulXU, about Iran, have a read about this.
Biden is about to rekindle old failures. The world is not the same.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/obama-trump-iran-nuclear

[bobbiemcgee]

"The United States launched airstrikes in Syria on Thursday, targeting facilities used by Iranian-backed militia groups. The Pentagon said the strikes were in retaliation for a rocket attack in Iraq earlier this month that killed one civilian contractor and wounded a U.S. service member and other coalition troops." -AP

Hmmm...

[Masterofreality]

"The United States launched airstrikes in Syria on Thursday, targeting facilities used by Iranian-backed militia groups. The Pentagon said the strikes were in retaliation for a rocket attack in Iraq earlier this month that killed one civilian contractor and wounded a U.S. service member and other coalition troops." -AP

Hmmm...

Remember when, for 4 years, there was a President who didn’t start any wars? Hmmmm.
I guess those Pentagon Generals and Weapons manufacturers were getting nervous.
Yay!! Back to US World Leadership!! Glad we re-engaged!!!

[Strange Brew]

Remember when, for 4 years, there was a President who didn’t start any wars? Hmmmm.
I guess those Pentagon Generals and Weapons manufacturers were getting nervous.
Yay!! Back to US World Leadership!! Glad we re-engaged!!!

Our kids in cages are different than your kids in cages...

[Masterofreality]

Ya know?
Isn’t it funny (?) that all through the campaign all Dementia Joe would talk about was that there was “No National Plan” to fight Covid? And that he was going to convene a “consensus of Governors” to make sure that all were aligned?
How’s that going Joe?
We still have some states with mask mandates, some not. Some states with better vaccine rollout plans (like Florida) than others (like New York). Some allowing 30% capacity at sporting events, others allowing more or allowing less.
And there was no vaccine plan when Biden took office....OH WAIT!! Ol’ Joe got vaccinated before he was even inaugurated!
(Summary. Biden Lies! In a soothing Grandpa voice surrounded by his dog)
Yes! EQUITY!!!

[paulxu]

And that he was going to convene a “consensus of Governors” to make sure that all were aligned?
How’s that going Joe?

Fairly well it sounds like. Remember, we are a federal republic.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/02/25/president-biden-tells-governors-they-have-fight-pandemic-as-one/6816185002/

[Masterofreality]

Fairly well it sounds like. Remember, we are a federal republic.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/02/25/president-biden-tells-governors-they-have-fight-pandemic-as-one/6816185002/

Well, that’s not what Biden has done...at all!
And where is the National Plan Joe?
Kinda amazing how the Constitution gets in the way, right?

And when will you ever address the article on Iran above Paul since you were such a defender of Obummer’s failed policy there.

[paulxu]

And when will you ever address the article on Iran above Paul since you were such a defender of Obummer’s failed policy there.

They are making good progress on restoring an agreement that kept their enrichment at the 3% commercial level, before Trump took us out of it; we had inspectors who could fully monitor it with the IAEA until his unwise decision. They are trying to calm the situation after his damage.
Nuclear weapons remain a great threat to our world. Sanctions obviously didn't work with N. Korea...and neither did love letters with Kim.
Hopefully wiser heads will prevail after the disaster of the last 4 years.

[Masterofreality]

They are making good progress on restoring an agreement that kept their enrichment at the 3% commercial level, before Trump took us out of it; we had inspectors who could fully monitor it with the IAEA until his unwise decision. They are trying to calm the situation after his damage.
Nuclear weapons remain a great threat to our world. Sanctions obviously didn't work with N. Korea...and neither did love letters with Kim.
Hopefully wiser heads will prevail after the disaster of the last 4 years.

Did you actually read the article or are you just gonna keep regurgitating false talking points?
Iran has cheated and never stopped. And they are making zero progress toward restarting, because talks are “stalled”.

[paulxu]

Yes I read the article.
Why do you continue to overlook that we had them at 3% enrichment, and after Trump's move and more sanctions, they've gone to 20%.
Sanctions didn't stop N. Korea from developing, testing a nuclear device and the weapons to deliver them.
They don't seem to be working in Iran. Surely you can understand that.
A unified stance by the international community with the IAEA inspecting has some chance of the not becoming another N. Korea.

[Strange Brew]

Yes I read the article.
Why do you continue to overlook that we had them at 3% enrichment, and after Trump's move and more sanctions, they've gone to 20%.
Sanctions didn't stop N. Korea from developing, testing a nuclear device and the weapons to deliver them.
They don't seem to be working in Iran. Surely you can understand that.
A unified stance by the international community with the IAEA inspecting has some chance of the not becoming another N. Korea.

Speaking of Iran. Time for Kerry to be tried for treason under the Logan Act.

[bobbiemcgee]

Speaking of Iran. Time for Flynn to be tried for treason under the Logan Act.

Fixed.

[Masterofreality]

Hmmmm. Amazing that these articles come out NOW!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/27/opinion/sunday/trump-cuomo-media-covid.html

“ The first month of the Biden era has been a hard time for these characters. A few have come through more burnished than before: If Mitt Romney was a Good Republican before, now he’s pretty much the Best. But elsewhere we’re seeing archetypes of anti-Trumpism exposed as idols, not just fallible but failing, not just imperfect but corrupt.

You may have noticed, for instance, the long-overdue collapse of the heroic story around Andrew Cuomo, the Tough Blue State Governor par excellence, whose pandemic news conferences inspired such fawning media coverage — from late-night hosts who declared themselves admiring “cuomosexuals,” from his own CNN-host brother — that the governor wrote a book about “leadership lessons from the Covid-19 pandemic” while the pandemic was still going on.”

And it goes on. Lincoln “Grifter” Project included.

[Masterofreality]

Yes I read the article.
Why do you continue to overlook that we had them at 3% enrichment, and after Trump's move and more sanctions, they've gone to 20%.
Sanctions didn't stop N. Korea from developing, testing a nuclear device and the weapons to deliver them.
They don't seem to be working in Iran. Surely you can understand that.
A unified stance by the international community with the IAEA inspecting has some chance of the not becoming another N. Korea.

Unverified 3% enrichment. They never stopped, just did a better job of hiding it. You really think they could have jacked up that stockpile and go from the alleged “3%” to 20% overnight?
Get your head out of the Mid East desert sand Paul. Iran was, is and always will be a rogue nation.

[xudash]

Unverified 3% enrichment. They never stopped, just did a better job of hiding it. You really think they could have jacked up that stockpile and go from the alleged “3%” to 20% overnight?
Get your head out of the Mid East desert sand Paul. Iran was, is and always will be a rogue nation.

...and the Neville Chamberlain Most Naive and Boneheaded Diplomat award goes to.....for believing it makes sense to negotiate, in any manner and form, with the government of Iran. Seriously, what an embarrassing stance to take.

Just a taste of the mindset of a demented asshole:

On 21 March 2009, a day after US President Barack Obama advocated a "new beginning" in diplomatic relations between the two countries, Khamenei said a change of US "words" was not enough and added: "We will watch and we will judge (the new US administration) ... You change, our behavior will change." He rejected US foreign policy since the Islamic revolution, insisted the United States is "hated in the world" and should end its interference in other countries.

[xuphan]

...and the Neville Chamberlain Most Naive and Boneheaded Diplomat award goes to.....for believing it makes sense to negotiate, in any manner and form, with the government of Iran. Seriously, what an embarrassing stance to take.

Just a taste of the mindset of a demented asshole:

On 21 March 2009, a day after US President Barack Obama advocated a "new beginning" in diplomatic relations between the two countries, Khamenei said a change of US "words" was not enough and added: "We will watch and we will judge (the new US administration) ... You change, our behavior will change." He rejected US foreign policy since the Islamic revolution, insisted the United States is "hated in the world" and should end its interference in other countries.

As a conservative, Watching CPAC this year has been very disappointing. I understand that we don’t agree with liberals on several issues but the bashing of fellow Americans is just sickening. Why not use some of the energy to take on other countries. Not fellow Americans.

[boozehound]

As a conservative, Watching CPAC this year has been very disappointing. I understand that we don’t agree with liberals on several issues but the bashing of fellow Americans is just sickening. Why not use some of the energy to take on other countries. Not fellow Americans.

I don't understand what has happened to conservatism. It used to be about substance and policy, now it's just bizarre idol worship and performative trolling.

Here is how I used to think about the two parties: The Democrats used to just talk about how great it would be if everything was free and nobody had to be poor. It's a noble pursuit, but not one that is grounded in reality. Conversely, the Republicans were the party that said "Yeah, all that stuff would be great but we can't afford it".

Traditionally I have voted more Republican than Democrat because the economy has always been the most important factor in my voting, and I preferred conservative policies in that arena. I never really liked the anti-gay marriage stuff, or the excessive criminalizing of minor drug offenses, and I believe in the Separation of Church and State so I don't like the evangelical / theocratic stuff. Nevertheless the policies I liked outweighed the policies I don't like. That has changed rapidly.

There is a lifestyle brand that is becoming increasingly associated with conservatism that I find repugnant. It hardly feels like a political platform anymore, and is becoming cultish. It's not all conservatives that are participating, but it's enough that it's poisoning the party, and the real problem is that the majority of conservatives continue to be willing to tolerate it. It ignores facts when they are inconvenient. It places individuals above the Country. It continues to deny the election results (it wasn't close). Perhaps most troubling is the celebration of cruelty to their fellow Americans.

Every party has a bunch of assholes that need to stay marginalized, but the Republicans are letting them take over the party. Now it's the rational / moderates who are being marginalized while people worship a literal Golden Statue of a failed former President who two months ago incited a coup (as confirmed by the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell) and is currently trying to purge the party of anyone who doesn't demonstrate appropriate fealty.

[GoMuskies]

CPAC did a 2024 straw poll that didn't include Donald Trump, Sr. (but did include Jr.). DeSantis got 43% of the vote. Larry Hogan got 0.2%.

[bobbiemcgee]

Interesting that only 55% of the far righties wanted trump in 2024.

[Xavier]

There is a lifestyle brand that is becoming increasingly associated with conservatism that I find repugnant. It hardly feels like a political platform anymore, and is becoming cultish. It's not all conservatives that are participating, but it's enough that it's poisoning the party, and the real problem is that the majority of conservatives continue to be willing to tolerate it. It ignores facts when they are inconvenient. It places individuals above the Country. It continues to deny the election results (it wasn't close). Perhaps most troubling is the celebration of cruelty to their fellow Americans.

.

I think the Republican party did a great job pushing the Democratic party more and more left over the years. To the point where if you don't have far left views you may get attacked by your party. It looks like to me the Democratic party is now doing the same to the Republicans. It becomes a good strategy....but hopefully it leads to most republicans and democrats realize they are a lot closer to the middle than these loud minority extremists.

[boozehound]

I think the Republican party did a great job pushing the Democratic party more and more left over the years. To the point where if you don't have far left views you may get attacked by your party. It looks like to me the Democratic party is now doing the same to the Republicans. It becomes a good strategy....but hopefully it leads to most republicans and democrats realize they are a lot closer to the middle than these loud minority extremists.

I agree with this, however I think that the Democrats have a much better handle on the far left that the Republicans do on the far right at the moment. At least from the standpoint of the Presidential candidates. For all the noise that was (and is) made by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren the last two Democratic nominees have been Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Clinton had a whole lot of baggage, but was by no means far left. Biden is even more toward the middle. Neither were great candidates. I think that Hillary Clinton was about the only person who Trump could have beaten, and I think that Trump is about the only person that Biden could have beaten. Biden has been catching a ton of shit from the far left, but so far he has just ignored it. I hope he continues to do so.

The far right fringe element of the Republican party seems to have very quickly taken over the decision making for the party to the point where Mitch McConnell can sit on the Senate Floor and condemn Trump in pretty strong and certain terms, but then a few weeks later they have Trump speaking at CPAC complete with a golden statue and McConnell is now saying he would support a Trump run for the Presidency mere weeks after he condemned him for inciting an insurrection at our Capitol.

If there ever was a time for the moderate Republicans to break with the far right, this was it. Unfortunately other than about 10 people, nobody is doing that.

[Strange Brew]

I agree with this, however I think that the Democrats have a much better handle on the far left that the Republicans do on the far right at the moment. At least from the standpoint of the Presidential candidates. For all the noise that was (and is) made by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren the last two Democratic nominees have been Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Clinton had a whole lot of baggage, but was by no means far left. Biden is even more toward the middle. Neither were great candidates. I think that Hillary Clinton was about the only person who Trump could have beaten, and I think that Trump is about the only person that Biden could have beaten. Biden has been catching a ton of shit from the far left, but so far he has just ignored it. I hope he continues to do so.

The far right fringe element of the Republican party seems to have very quickly taken over the decision making for the party to the point where Mitch McConnell can sit on the Senate Floor and condemn Trump in pretty strong and certain terms, but then a few weeks later they have Trump speaking at CPAC complete with a golden statue and McConnell is now saying he would support a Trump run for the Presidency mere weeks after he condemned him for inciting an insurrection at our Capitol.

If there ever was a time for the moderate Republicans to break with the far right, this was it. Unfortunately other than about 10 people, nobody is doing that.

Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

[paulxu]

Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)

Having a person who incited an insurrection against your own government, putting representatives of that government (and your own vice president) in danger, be the keynote speaker at your convention?

[Strange Brew]

Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)

Having a person who incited an insurrection against your own government, putting representatives of that government (and your own vice president) in danger, be the keynote speaker at your convention?

Sanders ran for President after inciting attempted murder of multiple members of Congress so I find your tripe disingenuous.

Edit: Washington and Jefferson fought an open war against their government and became President.

[boozehound]

Curious what views you believe to be “far right”?

I think it's always a little hard to quantify since it all happens on kind of a sliding scale. It's also difficult with the current state of the Republican party, because I think that a lot of their fringe beliefs have more to do with autocracy etc. than actual politics. In that context I guess its less about 'far right' than it is about people being kind of insane and behaving in an almost cult-like manner.

For example: The extreme idol worship of an individual (including assumptions of infallibility) isn't really a far right belief, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the Republican party right now. Many of them are willing to believe anything Trump tells them without question. They want him to have massive amounts of relatively unchecked executive power. They wanted him to overturn a Presidential election without credible evidence of any widespread fraud.

One thing that I actually kind of like about the Democrats is that they are willing to turn on their own when they transgress. Watch what they do to Cuomo. They will completely destroy him. He's done. As he should be.

[Strange Brew]

I think it's always a little hard to quantify since it all happens on kind of a sliding scale. It's also difficult with the current state of the Republican party, because I think that a lot of their fringe beliefs have more to do with autocracy etc. than actual politics. In that context I guess its less about 'far right' than it is about people being kind of insane and behaving in an almost cult-like manner.

For example: The extreme idol worship of an individual (including assumptions of infallibility) isn't really a far right belief, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the Republican party right now. Many of them are willing to believe anything Trump tells them without question. They want him to have massive amounts of relatively unchecked executive power. They wanted him to overturn a Presidential election without credible evidence of any widespread fraud.

One thing that I actually kind of like about the Democrats is that they are willing to turn on their own when they transgress. Watch what they do to Cuomo. They will completely destroy him. He's done. As he should be.

Not a big fan of the idol worship. I find it as off putting as when the Left and Media did the same with Obama.

Edit: That said, I believe many like Trump because he’s believed to be the only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the country. Sure, he’s bombastic and lies but at least he fights. Reminds me of Lincoln’s views on Grant and Sherman.

[paulxu]

Sanders ran for President after inciting attempted murder of multiple members of Congress so I find your tripe disingenuous.


Sanders on the nut job who shot up the congressional ball game (he didn't "incite" the guy)

"I have just been informed that the alleged shooter at the Republican baseball practice is someone who apparently volunteered on my presidential campaign," the Vermont independent said in brief remarks on the Senate floor. "I am sickened by this despicable act. Let me be as clear as I can be — violence of any kind is unacceptable in our society, and I condemn this action in the strongest possible terms. Real change can only come about through nonviolent action, and anything else runs counter to our most deeply held American values."

Trump on the rioters who caused deaths in the Capitol while the riot was taking place and he was watching:

"We love you, you're very special."

I can only hope you understand the difference.

[GoMuskies]

Believing the last election was "stolen" or "fraudulent?" (except where your party's people were elected)


Recency bias?

[boozehound]

Not a big fan of the idol worship. I find it as off putting as when the Left and Media did the same with Obama.

Edit: That said, I believe many like Trump because he’s believed to be the only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the country. Sure, he’s bombastic and lies but at least he fights. Reminds me of Lincoln’s views on Grant and Sherman.

I agree with you 100% on Obama. That was the first I can remember seeing a decent amount of people wearing T-shirts and shit supporting a President. It was a (not insignificant) part of why I voted for Romney over Obama when he ran for re-election. The idol worship and assumption that Obama was some kind of Savior was a little too much.

I'm not sure how much I agree with Trump as the 'only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the Country'. I think this is people grafting things onto Trump that aren't really true as a means to justify support for an individual that I believe is basically just a con artist. What specifically is he fighting for? In all the talking that Trump does, I very rarely hear him talk about Policy. The essential elements of any Trump speech seem to be (1) talking about how great he is, (2) talking about how great his audience is, (3) badmouthing his political opponents and creating fear, (4) vague claims about 'Making America Great Again'. (5) lots and lots of flagrant lying.

I also think he showed pretty clearly that he places himself above the good of the people and the Country. If he gave a shit about the Country he wouldn't have pulled what he pulled in the months after the election. Frankly even if he believed the election was stolen (I think he may actually believe that and could pass a lie detector test to that effect) there was a point at which I think it was pretty clear that the best thing for the Country was to stop pushing and support an orderly transfer of power. You can still push for voting security reforms and an investigation after doing that.

This is still who the party wants to represent it in the next election?

[Strange Brew]

I agree with you 100% on Obama. That was the first I can remember seeing a decent amount of people wearing T-shirts and shit supporting a President. It was a (not insignificant) part of why I voted for Romney over Obama when he ran for re-election. The idol worship and assumption that Obama was some kind of Savior was a little too much.

I'm not sure how much I agree with Trump as the 'only voice taking a stand against the Leftward movement of the Country'. I think this is people grafting things onto Trump that aren't really true as a means to justify support for an individual that I believe is basically just a con artist. What specifically is he fighting for? In all the talking that Trump does, I very rarely hear him talk about Policy. The essential elements of any Trump speech seem to be (1) talking about how great he is, (2) talking about how great his audience is, (3) badmouthing his political opponents and creating fear, (4) vague claims about 'Making America Great Again'. (5) lots and lots of flagrant lying.

I also think he showed pretty clearly that he places himself above the good of the people and the Country. If he gave a shit about the Country he wouldn't have pulled what he pulled in the months after the election. Frankly even if he believed the election was stolen (I think he may actually believe that and could pass a lie detector test to that effect) there was a point at which I think it was pretty clear that the best thing for the Country was to stop pushing and support an orderly transfer of power. You can still push for voting security reforms and an investigation after doing that.

This is still who the party wants to represent it in the next election?

I see where you’re coming from on Trump. He is definitely a master of self-promotion. Policy wise I felt he was clear based on his actions. Lower taxes, secure border, American interests first abroad, criminal justice reform, no new wars and historic peace deals and tough on China through trade.

As to the election. The argument can be made that he was speaking for millions who saw the election irregularities and the gov’t doing nothing about it. Particularly the changes made solely by Governors to State election laws. That is a direct violation of the Constitution regardless of the opinions of 9 people.

[paulxu]

Particularly the changes made solely by Governors to State election laws. That is a direct violation of the Constitution regardless of the opinions of 9 people.

That's interesting. I don't know (and I probably missed it) where any governor "solely" changed election laws.
The Pennsylvania laws under dispute were passed by a Republican legislature in 2019 (and signed by a Democratic governor)
Other laws changed in the face of the pandemic were (as far as I know) crafted by the state legislatures (who are in charge of setting election laws)
No single case that I know of provided any evidence of "fraud" in the 60+ cases..

Sadly, all over the country there are efforts to make voting harder for people to cast their ballot.
One would think the opposite would prevail...that we would do all we can to encourage, and make easy, participation in our government.
Many of the laws around mail-in-ballots were originally favored by Republicans, but that changed with so many people using them because of the pandemic, and the results of the last election.

[boozehound]

I see where you’re coming from on Trump. He is definitely a master of self-promotion. Policy wise I felt he was clear based on his actions. Lower taxes, secure border, American interests first abroad, criminal justice reform, no new wars and historic peace deals and tough on China through trade.

As to the election. The argument can be made that he was speaking for millions who saw the election irregularities and the gov’t doing nothing about it. Particularly the changes made solely by Governors to State election laws. That is a direct violation of the Constitution regardless of the opinions of 9 people.

What election irregularities? Why was none of that evidence deemed credible enough by any court of law to even proceed with a suit? Going out and sowing a bunch of misinformation about voting 'irregularities' and then subsequently using that as 'evidence' of election fraud.
If they were clear and direct violations of the constitution why didn't a court take those up?

Either way I think that's a bit of a red herring. If you think that the reason people were upset about the election losses was because of the constitutionality of some procedural changes to the voting process I believe you are giving people a lot of credit around how much they know and care about the Constitution. They were upset because they had way too much emotionally invested in a candidate who lost, and that candidate then spent 2 months lying about how they didn't actually lose. Which gave all involved a way to extend their bizarre fantasy for another 2 months.

[Strange Brew]

What election irregularities? Why was none of that evidence deemed credible enough by any court of law to even proceed with a suit? Going out and sowing a bunch of misinformation about voting 'irregularities' and then subsequently using that as 'evidence' of election fraud.
If they were clear and direct violations of the constitution why didn't a court take those up?

Either way I think that's a bit of a red herring. If you think that the reason people were upset about the election losses was because of the constitutionality of some procedural changes to the voting process I believe you are giving people a lot of credit around how much they know and care about the Constitution. They were upset because they had way too much emotionally invested in a candidate who lost, and that candidate then spent 2 months lying about how they didn't actually lose. Which gave all involved a way to extend their bizarre fantasy for another 2 months.

Could be. I’ll give you that. I personally am, let’s say intrigued by D Governor’s unilaterally changing election laws in swing states during an election year. Sure I’m just letting curiosity get the best of me....

[boozehound]

Could be. I’ll give you that. I personally am, let’s say intrigued by D Governor’s unilaterally changing election laws in swing states during an election year. Sure I’m just letting curiosity get the best of me....

I'm not sure which specific state(s) or governor(s) you are referring to, but I assume that any changes were made as part of an emergency response to the pandemic we were in the midst of in order to expand mail-in voting so that people didn't have to crowd into polling places to take part in the Democratic process.

[Strange Brew]

I'm not sure which specific state(s) or governor(s) you are referring to, but I assume that any changes were made as part of an emergency response to the pandemic we were in the midst of in order to expand mail-in voting so that people didn't have to crowd into polling places to take part in the Democratic process.

Could be mistaken but they were not emergency orders.

See PA. Laws were changed pre pandemic and the D’s sued to extend counting. Case was decided in Sept but I could be wrong. Interestingly, Trump was winning at the end of the previous expiration of counting.

[paulxu]

Which governor "solely" change the voting laws?

[xudash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnafho4KMiQ&feature=youtu.be

[paulxu]

Apparently the MAGA wackos and the Q'ers are supposed to be coming to the Capitol tomorrow for the swearing in of Trump as president on the old date of the inauguration.

Also to get targeted members of Congress.

[xudash]

Apparently the MAGA wackos and the Q'ers are supposed to be coming to the Capitol tomorrow for the swearing in of Trump as president on the old date of the inauguration.

Also to get targeted members of Congress.

Paul, were you advocating for negotiating with Iran?

https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/24/woman-hanged-hung-dying-execution-cardiac-arrest-iran-zahra-ismaili/?__FB_PRIVATE_TRACKING__=%7B%22loggedout_browser_i d%22%3A%22d0e19a9554a107a7d9ab3e3f92f67d7f997a0062 %22%7D&fbclid=IwAR2lziQ9c0G5wgS_wLD6hZDmjNtFqliywk7fNNTNb mK6jUc94NeWNrE_e3E

[bobbiemcgee]

Apparently the MAGA wackos and the Q'ers are supposed to be coming to the Capitol tomorrow for the swearing in of Trump as president on the old date of the inauguration.

Also to get targeted members of Congress.

Wow. Fox news will have to adjust their non-stop coverage of Dr. Seuss.

[paulxu]

Paul, were you advocating for negotiating with Iran?

https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/24/woman-hanged-hung-dying-execution-cardiac-arrest-iran-zahra-ismaili/?__FB_PRIVATE_TRACKING__=%7B%22loggedout_browser_i d%22%3A%22d0e19a9554a107a7d9ab3e3f92f67d7f997a0062 %22%7D&fbclid=IwAR2lziQ9c0G5wgS_wLD6hZDmjNtFqliywk7fNNTNb mK6jUc94NeWNrE_e3E

I would always advise trying to negotiate (from a position of strength) to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

I would not advocate as the MAGA crowd did to hang our own vice-president because he didn't obey an unlawful order from the president to not follow his constitutional duty to preside over electoral certification.

Iran doesn't have the corner on cruelty:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-bill-execution-firing-squad-electric-chair/

[Lamont Sanford]

I would always advise trying to negotiate (from a position of strength) to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

I would not advocate as the MAGA crowd did to hang our own vice-president because he didn't obey an unlawful order from the president to not follow his constitutional duty to preside over electoral certification.

Iran doesn't have the corner on cruelty:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-bill-execution-firing-squad-electric-chair/

Paul -

How about the Hamilton (OH) mom who ran over over her 6 year old son with her car then proceeded to throw him into the Ohio River? I guess she could apply to be Biden's next director of Homeland Security. Or I'd say she could be target practice for the SC firing squad.

[Masterofreality]

Apparently the MAGA wackos and the Q'ers are supposed to be coming to the Capitol tomorrow for the swearing in of Trump as president on the old date of the inauguration.

Also to get targeted members of Congress.

“Apparently”. As credibly verified by who?
More fear mongering to keep that Capitol fence up.
Uh, update. No one has come to the Capitol. And never were. Just more BS.

[xudash]

I would always advise trying to negotiate (from a position of strength) to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

I would not advocate as the MAGA crowd did to hang our own vice-president because he didn't obey an unlawful order from the president to not follow his constitutional duty to preside over electoral certification.

Iran doesn't have the corner on cruelty:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-bill-execution-firing-squad-electric-chair/

You were a successful businessman. Negotiations between two parties can only be truly successful if both parties act in a moral and ethical manner. Otherwise, the unethical, immoral party will more often than not (being polite there) abuse the relationship over time.

I understand that global diplomacy may call for "defensive treaties" from time to time with bad players, but the Iranian regime would prefer to see us DEAD. They wouldn't understand GOOD FAITH if it bit them in the ass. You don't negotiate with a nation that is actively conducting terrorist operations. You don't negotiate with people like that from a position of strength. You strangle their economy through sanctions until they are forced to behave (hard to do with others helping to prop them up, but that causes stress for those players, too).

Lastly, and I hope to be out of here again for a while, I'm sure the abused, murdered, hung woman appreciates your concern over what a group of people allegedly said while otherwise not acting on what they said. Seriously, you deflect too much.

[noteggs]

Wow. Fox news will have to adjust their non-stop coverage of Dr. Seuss.

Overkill by Fox? Probably. If offended by some, just throw a damn parental advisory label on the books and move on. Seem to work well with albums back in day lol. Or we can just go full throttle Fahrenheit 451 and skip the Overton window way.

It is becoming interesting tho. First removal of statues and Washington/Lincoln school names and now the words “Mr/Mrs” potato head and Dr Seuss (yes I realize these were corporate decisions as well). What’s next? We already know white heterosexual males are the worst!

[Strange Brew]

Overkill by Fox? Probably. If offended by some, just throw a damn parental advisory label on the books and move on. Seem to work well with albums back in day lol. Or we can just go full throttle Fahrenheit 451 and skip the Overton window way.

It is becoming interesting tho. First removal of statues and Washington/Lincoln school names and now the words “Mr/Mrs” potato head and Dr Seuss (yes I realize these were corporate decisions as well). What’s next? We already know white heterosexual males are the worst!

More Huxley in my opinion. Especially with the dissolution of male/female relationships and sexuality.

[STL_XUfan]

Paul -

How about the Hamilton (OH) mom who ran over over her 6 year old son with her car then proceeded to throw him into the Ohio River? I guess she could apply to be Biden's next director of Homeland Security. Or I'd say she could be target practice for the SC firing squad.

I would be all for dragging them behind a car until they were dead. But then again that is probably the reason why we do not have a system where I get to decide the punishment.

I am against the death penalty because it is too expensive and our success rate of executing the actual perpetrator of the crime is less than 100%.

[Smails]

Iran doesn't have the corner on cruelty:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-bill-execution-firing-squad-electric-chair/

Great example, Paul..spot on.

[Strange Brew]

Great example, Paul..spot on.

This is why I ignore Paul. Moral relativism is not an effective argument.

Besides, that's just a norm of SC culture right? Xiden would agree if it were China.

Disclaimer: I realize my argument employed moral relativism. Purpose is to show it is a childish form of argument. SC and Iran are wrong. Paul's point is moot again.

[noteggs]

More Huxley in my opinion. Especially with the dissolution of male/female relationships and sexuality.

Perhaps. Side note: every time I see Huxley’s name I automatically think of Jim Morrison and the Doors. Of course for good reason.

[Strange Brew]

Perhaps. Side note: every time I see Huxley’s name I automatically think of Jim Morrison and the Doors. Of course for good reason.

Well done. Public reps.

[Strange Brew]

Well the MS case shows what happens when evidence finally gets in front of a judge...

[paulxu]

Lastly, and I hope to be out of here again for a while, I'm sure the abused, murdered, hung woman appreciates your concern over what a group of people allegedly said while otherwise not acting on what they said. Seriously, you deflect too much.

Dash, you know me. I'm in no way condoning anything in the article about Iran hanging that woman. My point was in our history, and even today, we also should be examining how we conduct ourselves.

As to negotiating and sanctions, both have a place in diplomacy, especially when we are trying to focus on removing the threat of nuclear war.
We sanctioned N. Korea for decades, and they still got the nuclear weapon and delivery systems for them. Sanctions alone didn't work, despite much of their country being on the edge of poverty.
We should do everything we can to prevent that from happening in Iran. We know from N. Korea that sanctions alone don't work.

[xudash]

Dash, you know me. I'm in no way condoning anything in the article about Iran hanging that woman. My point was in our history, and even today, we also should be examining how we conduct ourselves.

As to negotiating and sanctions, both have a place in diplomacy, especially when we are trying to focus on removing the threat of nuclear war.
We sanctioned N. Korea for decades, and they still got the nuclear weapon and delivery systems for them. Sanctions alone didn't work, despite much of their country being on the edge of poverty.
We should do everything we can to prevent that from happening in Iran. We know from N. Korea that sanctions alone don't work.

Paul, fair enough. However, I will submit that pursuing a negotiated agreement with the Iranian regime will not work either. They hate us. They don't have the ethical and moral foundation to conduct themselves properly under an agreement with a party that they would prefer to see annihilated.

Finally, I don't care that it was "their money." It was remarkably stupid for Obama and Kerry to release funding to them. Sorry, we're the United States. We're the one with the big stick. And they have been consistently naughty. The deal Obama did with them was laughable.

[Masterofreality]

Apparently the MAGA wackos and the Q'ers are supposed to be coming to the Capitol tomorrow for the swearing in of Trump as president on the old date of the inauguration.

Also to get targeted members of Congress.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.............nothing.
The Left fabricated the whole thing, and now they will claim that they stopped an attack on the Capital by extremists. Covid is dying down, so domestic extremism is their next method of control. Barbed wire everywhere.
Who are the Conspiracy Theorists again?

[noteggs]

Barbed wire everywhere.

Except at the border. Remember, those type of deterrents don’t work there.

[paulxu]

Oh those dirty leftists in the Capitol police who received credible threats (according to them). Just imagine it.

(still waiting for the losing guy from the last election to condemn the insurrection. I admit I'm not holding my breath.)

[paulxu]

, so domestic extremism is their next method of control.

This is domestic terrorism in case you needed a visual aid.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hqvOcr0uu9o/maxresdefault.jpg

[Masterofreality]

Uh huh......#Antifa

https://www.newsweek.com/portland-protests-100-days-saturday-riots-1529633?amp=1

https://mynorthwest.com/1904010/dori-seattle-riots-failure-political-leadership/

https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-armed-residents-protecting-local-businesses-rioters-kenosha-wi-1527496

Among many others. Just keep on Paul. I can post these things all night.

[Masterofreality]

Oh those dirty leftists in the Capitol police who received credible threats (according to them). Just imagine it.

(still waiting for the losing guy from the last election to condemn the insurrection. I admit I'm not holding my breath.)

So where are they? Sure not in Washington DC. Fearmonger

[paulxu]

So where are they? Sure not in Washington DC. Fearmonger

I have no idea. I'm not the Capitol police, who have already lost members in a right-wing riot.
Did they dream it up? Maybe.

Then again, well over 50% of Republicans believe the election was stolen. So...some people will believe anything.
If they hadn't rioted in the first place, there wouldn't be all the trouble there now.
If the former guy hadn't incited them, things would be a lot better today. Hell, if he'd even today grow up and disassociate himself from them it would help.

Send your dollars to Trump. He's still collecting them from the suckers and lining his own pockets.

[paulxu]

Uh huh......#Antifa

https://www.newsweek.com/portland-protests-100-days-saturday-riots-1529633?amp=1

https://mynorthwest.com/1904010/dori-seattle-riots-failure-political-leadership/

https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-armed-residents-protecting-local-businesses-rioters-kenosha-wi-1527496

Among many others. Just keep on Paul. I can post these things all night.

None of those people were marching under the banner of the president of the United States.
None of them were called special or told they were loved by the president.
Democrat leaders condemn violence. Trump, the president of our country, the chief law enforcement officer, incites it; and stood by and by all accounts enjoyed it. Certainly did nothing to help congress or his vice president.

I can only hope you understand the difference.

[Strange Brew]

None of those people were marching under the banner of the president of the United States.
None of them were called special or told they were loved by the president.
Democrat leaders condemn violence. Trump, the president of our country, the chief law enforcement officer, incites it; and stood by and by all accounts enjoyed it. Certainly did nothing to help congress or his vice president.

I can only hope you understand the difference.

Well, the Senate said he didn’t incite it so you’ll need to check TPN for your next talking point.

[paulxu]

Well, the Senate said he didn’t incite it so you’ll need to check TPN for your next talking point.

Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell said on Saturday that Donald Trump was “practically and morally responsible” for the insurrection at the US Capitol on 6 January – minutes after voting to acquit the former president in his impeachment trial for that very same act.

McConnell, like the senators who voted in favor of impeachment, was deeply critical of Trump’s conduct leading up to the attack. “They [the mob] did this because they’d been fed wild falsehoods by the most powerful man on Earth because he was angry he lost an election,” McConnell said.

[Strange Brew]

Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell said on Saturday that Donald Trump was “practically and morally responsible” for the insurrection at the US Capitol on 6 January – minutes after voting to acquit the former president in his impeachment trial for that very same act.

McConnell, like the senators who voted in favor of impeachment, was deeply critical of Trump’s conduct leading up to the attack. “They [the mob] did this because they’d been fed wild falsehoods by the most powerful man on Earth because he was angry he lost an election,” McConnell said.

That’s like McConnel’s opinion man. Critical of but not responsible for. Case closed.

[Masterofreality]

None of those people were marching under the banner of the president of the United States.
None of them were called special or told they were loved by the president.
Democrat leaders condemn violence. Trump, the president of our country, the chief law enforcement officer, incites it; and stood by and by all accounts enjoyed it. Certainly did nothing to help congress or his vice president.

I can only hope you understand the difference.

No, "those people" last summer were just called an "Idea" while they were looting, burning and killing and then were bailed out by funds that were promoted and advertised to be given to by none other than Kamala Harris, the current Vice President. The same Kamala Harris who shows up for a photo opp meeting with a freaking felon in Kenosha, who admitted to having a knife and to kidnapping, to "show support'. Then it comes out via investigative reporting by Independent Journalists in Portland that the DOJ under "encouragement from the "new administration" (Democrat of course) that at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the charged rioters in Portland have had their cases dismissed without prejudice"! That means that the case can never be reopened. They skate scot free. That is some damn way to "condemn". And by bailing these asshats out to riot elsewhere again, you don't think that is "inciting something".
can't wait until Antifa starts firebombing your street in South Carolina.

I certainly hope you can understand the difference.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kgw.com/amp/article/news/investigations/portland-protest-cases-dismissed-feds/283-002f01d2-3217-4b12-8725-3fda2cad119f

“ At least 11 of the dismissed federal protest cases were dropped on or after the inauguration of President Joe Biden. With a new president and soon new a U.S. Attorney in Oregon, it’s unclear how these cases will be handled going forward.”

[paulxu]

None of those people were marching under the banner of the president of the United States.
None of them were called special or told they were loved by the president.
Democrat leaders condemn violence. Trump, the president of our country, the chief law enforcement officer, incites it; and stood by and by all accounts enjoyed it. Certainly did nothing to help congress or his vice president.

I can only hope you understand the difference.

Bump

[bobbiemcgee]

So where are they? Sure not in Washington DC. Fearmonger

Sad news for trump who tripled his hotel prices this week.

[Strange Brew]

Sad news for trump who tripled his hotel prices this week.

It’s DC. I’m sure he did ok as his managers were likely setting or responding to market rates.

[boozehound]

Well, the Senate said he didn’t incite it so you’ll need to check TPN for your next talking point.

I thought that the whole jist of the Senate argument was not that he didn't incite it (many avoided opining on that altogether), but that it wasn't constitutional to impeach a former President. That way they didn't have to anger his base by impeaching him, but also weren't all tied to condoning it.

Reasonable people can disagree about what exactly it means to 'incite' and whether Trump fit that definition. It seems pretty clear though that he had multiple opportunities to attempt to defuse the situation and chose not to. Anybody who doesn't have a major problem with those events, and Trump's role them, appears to me to be blinded by idol worship.

[paulxu]

I certainly hope you can understand the difference.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kgw.com/amp/article/news/investigations/portland-protest-cases-dismissed-feds/283-002f01d2-3217-4b12-8725-3fda2cad119f

“ At least 11 of the dismissed federal protest cases were dropped on or after the inauguration of President Joe Biden. With a new president and soon new a U.S. Attorney in Oregon, it’s unclear how these cases will be handled going forward.”

MOR, I read that article you linked above. It would be concerning if the new administration put pressure on the prosecutors.
But that doesn't seem to be what happened. Further in the article the US attorney notes this:


In a recent interview with KGW, Williams explained the cases were dismissed in instances where prosecutors didn’t believe they could prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt.

“Each case was analyzed for the evidence that we had at the time," said Williams. "Careful decisions were made on whether or not someone should be charged based on the evidence."

Williams explained decisions are made on a case-by-case basis.

That attorney was a Trump appointee. He was still in office when the cases were dismissed. Many of the cases remain open for prosecution from those incidents.

[Strange Brew]

I thought that the whole jist of the Senate argument was not that he didn't incite it (many avoided opining on that altogether), but that it wasn't constitutional to impeach a former President. That way they didn't have to anger his base by impeaching him, but also weren't all tied to condoning it.

Reasonable people can disagree about what exactly it means to 'incite' and whether Trump fit that definition. It seems pretty clear though that he had multiple opportunities to attempt to defuse the situation and chose not to. Anybody who doesn't have a major problem with those events, and Trump's role them, appears to me to be blinded by idol worship.

“Anybody who doesn’t”? I have a problem with the events. Trump’s role is no different than Obama’s role in leftist violence with, “bring a gun to a knife fight”. That is, political free speech. Anybody who disagrees has some kind of problem that makes me feel morally superior and smarter.

[boozehound]

“Anybody who doesn’t”? I have a problem with the events. Trump’s role is no different than Obama’s role in leftist violence with, “bring a gun to a knife fight”. That is, political free speech. Anybody who disagrees has some kind of problem that makes me feel morally superior and smarter.

That's fine. Go ahead and worship at the altar of Trump. If anybody challenges it just reach into your lexicon of conservative talking points for a false equivalency. Even Mitch McConnell stated that he believed that Trump fomented insurrection. Seems pretty clear that he at least had 'a role' in the events of the day, but I think we live in different realities.

"But Obama did it too" is neither a refutation nor an argument. Bonus points for having to reach so far back that Obama was a candidate, not the sitting President for your 'gun to a knife fight' red herring.

[Masterofreality]

See, ya know? Don’t go assuming that all of us who see a huge anarchy problem “worship at the altar of Trump”. That is total BS.
I worship at the altar of a peaceful, prosperous and strong America and at an altar of a fair and accurate media, not a series of invented narratives spawned by bias.
And what do I mean about accurate media?
This guy was just on MSNBC. An AP reporter.
The AP’s Jon Lemire claims the George Floyd protests/riots, which led to an $2 billion in damages, 14,000 arrests, 20+ deaths & 12 cops shot, “were nonviolent.”

“These were nonviolent protesters, racially mixed, a lot of young people … There was no violence there." Lemire said...quote.

Just stop.

[Strange Brew]

That's fine. Go ahead and worship at the altar of Trump. If anybody challenges it just reach into your lexicon of conservative talking points for a false equivalency. Even Mitch McConnell stated that he believed that Trump fomented insurrection. Seems pretty clear that he at least had 'a role' in the events of the day, but I think we live in different realities.

"But Obama did it too" is neither a refutation nor an argument. Bonus points for having to reach so far back that Obama was a candidate, not the sitting President for your 'gun to a knife fight' red herring.

Should BHM never have been allowed to hold public office or been held criminally responsible? I don’t think so.

Role in and responsible for are two very different things and I can’t imagine any of us wanting those lines to blur.

[Masterofreality]

This article by Glenn Greenwald-a liberal journalist, but with principles, is spot on Paul.
Compare this “Armed Insurrection” to the violence of last summer. The American people are being subjected to a veiled state of Martial Law and Authoritarianism, with no credible evidence to support it.
The differences are clear. I encourage everyone to subscribe to Greenwald and to Bari Weiss blog called “Common Sense”. Both are liberals, but they are not “Illiberal”.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/as-the-insurrection-narrative-crumbles?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxODgzMDg0MCwicG9zdF9 pZCI6MzMzMjA4NDYsIl8iOiIrQldPcSIsImlhdCI6MTYxNDk4M zU2MCwiZXhwIjoxNjE0OTg3MTYwLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjY yIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.Pgi0c9M92Ol0VUvg 5C_3kZhIUdBUw8rLutEON4Wodmc

[GoMuskies]

Greenwald and Weiss are the most irrationally hated people on Twitter. Taibbi is closing in...

[Masterofreality]

Greenwald and Weiss are the most irrationally hated people on Twitter. Taibbi is closing in...

And why do you think that is?

Because they are actually Rational, as opposed to the “Woke” brigade.

[noteggs]

This article by Glenn Greenwald-a liberal journalist, but with principles, is spot on Paul.
Compare this “Armed Insurrection” to the violence of last summer. The American people are being subjected to a veiled state of Martial Law and Authoritarianism, with no credible evidence to support it.
The differences are clear. I encourage everyone to subscribe to Greenwald and to Bari Weiss blog called “Common Sense”. Both are liberals, but they are not “Illiberal”.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/as-the-insurrection-narrative-crumbles?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxODgzMDg0MCwicG9zdF9 pZCI6MzMzMjA4NDYsIl8iOiIrQldPcSIsImlhdCI6MTYxNDk4M zU2MCwiZXhwIjoxNjE0OTg3MTYwLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjY yIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.Pgi0c9M92Ol0VUvg 5C_3kZhIUdBUw8rLutEON4Wodmc


Very nice article and thanks for sharing. My favorite sentence:

“The more you can demonize your opponents as something monstrous, the more political power you can acquire.” Guess right wing terrorist extremists is now the new moniker!

Racist, homophobic, and xenophobic seem to be wearing off. However, sure they will be recycled if this doesn’t catch on.

[paulxu]

Trump's own intelligence briefings noted right wing extremists were the biggest terror threat to the country.

No matter how you want to try and wash it away, you can't ignore that the former president refused to condemn that threat.
From saying they're good people on both sides, to telling the Capitol rioters that they were loved and special, he gave a wink to their activities.

Why people want to defend that behavior is beyond me. The BLM riots were bad, and somebody like Biden has condemned that violence.
Would that our last president have done the same, perhaps we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Masterofreality]

Time to get off your one trick Trump pony Paul. He’s gone.

Time for you to start defending your Dementia afflicted preferred ruler. Who can’t even hold a press conference or answer questions from an obviously friendly press. Who is reallly in charge here?

There is a border crisis looming. He’s showing zero leadership on a Covid relief bill, he continues to low tow to Teacher’s unions, the most educationally vulnerable of our kids cannot get back into a live school setting and Jill Biden is breaking in and answering questions for him. This is one helluva of a first one hundred days. Again, who is really in charge here?

Your party condoned riots all summer long that damaged the businesses of people of color, with zero remorse, coddled criminals with “sympathetic visits, bailed amarchists out, 20 people dead, $2 billion in property damage and lost taxes because they didn’t’ want to anger the woke base. And now the same party wants to break the US budget by throwing these same delinquent city governments buckets of money to make up for it. Biden condemned NOTHING[/B] until the polls told him he was losing the country over it. This is all garbage, and you know it.

Where is your outrage now that the mean tweets are gone?

[Xville]

These covid unemployment benefits need to stop. I speak with small/medium sized business owners 5-6 times a day and all of them are having trouble hiring people, and thus getting “back to normal” because people would rather get a free check rather than work for it (can’t say I necessarily blame them in a way). Extending these until September is asinine....use that money to further help restaurant/bar and other industries that have been destroyed.

[paulxu]

So, you have your one trick pony Biden, and I have mine.
I knew we wouldn't hear a thing about deficits until a Democrat was in the White House, as we gave the really wealthy more money with a tax cut.
Read the other day that a few billionaires made as much money in the pandemic as the relief bill will cost.

Oh well, such is life. Look me when Biden encourages his followers to storm the Capitol after he loses an election.
As to your thought about Biden condemning violence, he has been consistently doing exactly that...despite your sources:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/07/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-several-times/6576824002/

I'm still waiting for Trump to condemn it...instead of stand up and stand by, or your special and loved, or good people on both sides.

[Masterofreality]

So, you have your one trick pony Biden, and I have mine.
I knew we wouldn't hear a thing about deficits until a Democrat was in the White House, as we gave the really wealthy more money with a tax cut.
Read the other day that a few billionaires made as much money in the pandemic as the relief bill will cost.

Oh well, such is life. Look me when Biden encourages his followers to storm the Capitol after he loses an election.
As to your thought about Biden condemning violence, he has been consistently doing exactly that...despite your sources:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/07/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-several-times/6576824002/

I'm still waiting for Trump to condemn it...instead of stand up and stand by, or your special and loved, or good people on both sides.

Uh, Biden is the current President in power (allegedly although we have zero idea about who is really in charge) along with his ridiculous cohorts of $4,000 Refrigerator Nancy and Slimy Schumer. Trump is gone Brother and all of your attempted fearmongering has resulted in nothing. Meanwhile $20 Billion in damage caused by your woke cohort rioting last summer is still hurting minorities.
The “good people on both sides” quote has been widely debunked in context, but a perfect example of the biased media I have mentioned. Then tax cut created one of the greatest economic rebounds in history resulting in record low unemployment for people of color. The little guy was doing great under Trump, but why did Biden get more money contributions from Wall Street than any other candidate in history? Because the Moneyed Elites take care of their own while impoverishing the proletariat. Why do you think that every Democrat run city is a cesspool?
Trump is gone. Better focus on your Altzheimer Addled leader who can’t remember where he is or answer simple questions.

[paulxu]

I would guess that the smart people on Wall Street gave more money to Biden because they'd had enough of Trump's nonsense.
Can't blame them.

[Masterofreality]

I would guess that the smart people on Wall Street gave more money to Biden because they'd had enough of Trump's nonsense.
Can't blame them.

Trump’s “nonsense” as you call it raised the market from 18,339 on his Election Day, (it went up 250 points the day after his election), to 29,568 on 2/12/20- just before the pandemic screwed everything up.

I’m sure investors would take that kind of 3 plus years “nonsense” in a heartbeat.

Try again.

[Muskie in dayton]

Trump’s “nonsense” as you call it raised the market from 18,339 on his Election Day, (it went up 250 points the day after his election), to 29,568 on 2/12/20- just before the pathetic overreaction and ongoing political theatrics and fearmongering related to the pandemic screwed everything up.

I’m sure investors would take that kind of 3 plus years “nonsense” in a heartbeat.

Try again.
Fixed that for you.

[paulxu]

Trump’s “nonsense” as you call it raised the market from 18,339 on his Election Day, (it went up 250 points the day after his election), to 29,568 on 2/12/20- just before the pandemic screwed everything up.

I’m sure investors would take that kind of 3 plus years “nonsense” in a heartbeat.

Try again.

So why didn't those folks put their money on Trump?

[paulxu]

These covid unemployment benefits need to stop. I speak with small/medium sized business owners 5-6 times a day and all of them are having trouble hiring people, and thus getting “back to normal” because people would rather get a free check rather than work for it (can’t say I necessarily blame them in a way). Extending these until September is asinine....use that money to further help restaurant/bar and other industries that have been destroyed.

They listened to you. The new bill will


also provide $25 billion for a new grant program specifically for bars and restaurants. Eligible businesses may receive up to $10 million and can use the money for a variety of expenses, including payroll, mortgage and rent, utilities and food and beverages.

[bobbiemcgee]

These covid unemployment benefits need to stop. I speak with small/medium sized business owners 5-6 times a day and all of them are having trouble hiring people, and thus getting “back to normal” because people would rather get a free check rather than work for it (can’t say I necessarily blame them in a way). Extending these until September is asinine....use that money to further help restaurant/bar and other industries that have been destroyed.

76% of AMERICANS are saying they favor it. Go get drunk and hand them a $1400.00 tip. Problem solved.

[bobbiemcgee]

Trump’s “nonsense” as you call it raised the market from 18,339 on his Election Day, (it went up 250 points the day after his election), to 29,568 on 2/12/20- just before the pandemic screwed everything up.

I’m sure investors would take that kind of 3 plus years “nonsense” in a heartbeat.

Try again.

31,500 now

[Masterofreality]

31,500 now

Let’s see what happens when gas goes to $4.50/gallon and the economy tanks from that and stifling Government regulation-which will most assuredly happen under Biden. Not to mention inflation returning which will cut purchasing power.
A month is not 3 years. Can you understand that simple fact?

[Masterofreality]

So why didn't those folks put their money on Trump?

They’re all fat cat short sellers. And the little guys are trying to screw them.
I hope the little guys win.

[noteggs]

Trump's own intelligence briefings noted right wing extremists were the biggest terror threat to the country.

No matter how you want to try and wash it away, you can't ignore that the former president refused to condemn that threat.
From saying they're good people on both sides, to telling the Capitol rioters that they were loved and special, he gave a wink to their activities.

Why people want to defend that behavior is beyond me. The BLM riots were bad, and somebody like Biden has condemned that violence.
Would that our last president have done the same, perhaps we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I am not aware of anybody who’s defending his behavior from January 6. There are extreme elements from both parties that pose a threat to our country as we both know. What happened on that day with the lack of Trump’s leadership and action still bothers me. Can’t you blame anyone in Democrat party for their poor action or leadership during the summer riots?

Back to MOR’s article he posted, labeling the majority Trump voters as extreme terrorists is just another chapter from the Democrats playbook because it promotes fear. Even the press jumped into the fear mongering and think that is what Greenwald was getting at. Actually, Democrats have been demonizing R’s for decades. You know the whole racist, xenophobic, homophobic thing.

If I remember correctly, you don’t like to be considered a socialist because you’re a Democrat. So yes, fear mongering goes both ways. As I mentioned before, I would much rather be mislabeled for my political ideology vs my character any day.

As for the whole misrepresentation of “some good people on both sides”, has gotta go. We should both by now know he was referencing the large number of people who were there because they truly didn’t want the statue torn down and to the people who did. Not the extremists on either side. This is why he said “some” and explained it further in his press conference.

Of course the Democrats and press ran with it and here we are, people still taking the statement out of context. Kills me to stick up for Trump these days, but just trying to be intellectually honest here. Of course there is a possibility that some out there who consider those who want to protect a statue and the history it represents as bad people.

[paulxu]

You may have some valid points.
But if you're there to support keeping confederate statues of people who actually did have a violent insurrection against our government (and I'm a Southerner) then that might raise a question.
But the real problem is marching with tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us."

Why was it so hard for Trump to disavow people like that marching in his name, with his hats and his flags? Or to disavow the Proud Boys?

[Bad Billy Pratt]

“Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.”

Our history is what it is, we may choose to learn and grow or not.

[Smails]

You may have some valid points.


Which points do you find valid?

[paulxu]

Which points do you find valid?

I agree the fear mongering goes both ways and should stop.
I don't think all Republicans are racist, homophones, etc. There are a whole lot of good thinking, well meaning Republicans out there.

It bothers me that so much of the really nutty stuff has been adopted by some Republicans like Gossar and others, and I don't think it served us well on January 6th.
A good dialogue on issues that are important to the American people serves the country well.
The manner in which that dialogue was carried over the last 4 years seemed often to serve the interests of one man, not the country.

If nothing else, his recent cease and desist letter to the Republican party should give Republicans pause.
He's only interested in making money for himself, and not advancing the policies the party traditionally embraces.

[GoMuskies]

So....you guys going to elect JD Vance to the Senate?

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/elections/2021/03/15/super-pac-supporting-possible-ohio-senate-candidate-j-d-vance-gets-10-m-donation-peter-thiel/4700540001/

[boozehound]

The amount of money in politics is just insane. We could probably rebuild our infrastructure for what we spend on political campaigns as a country. The scary part is that it seems to be accelerating, too.

[Muskie in dayton]

As the time approaches for inauguration, it appears that the president has become a little unhinged.
Georgia has recounted all the votes 3 times I think, and additionally had a verification of the signatures on mail in ballots done by investigators, with no discrepancies found.

Threatening the Georgia Secretary of State to find ballots to reverse the election results sounds desperate. I actually feel sorry for the SoS as a Republican trying to his job, and getting threatened by the president of the country. Has to be hard. Hopefully this nonsense ceases on Jan 20th.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-georgia-secretary-of-state-raffensperger-hourlong-call-overturn-election-results

Now that this story has prove to be fabricated and WaPo issued a retraction, do you Dems feel silly? You should.

Does it make you wonder what else you have been lied to about? It should.

[paulxu]

Sorry, I must have missed this.

Was the tape of his call to the Georgia official a made up tape? I'd like to read about that. Please provide link.

[XUBANDGRAD]

Sorry, I must have missed this.

Was the tape of his call to the Georgia official a made up tape? I'd like to read about that. Please provide link.

I mean I’m absolutely SHOCKED the dems would make shit up. SHOCKED I TELL YOU! No it wasn’t a made up tape the Georgia official lied about what was in it, tried to destroy the evidence of the lie, then a real version was found that, unsurprisingly, shows Trump said nothing of what was alleged. There is no low that dems will not stoop to.

[Masterofreality]

Sorry, I must have missed this.

Was the tape of his call to the Georgia official a made up tape? I'd like to read about that. Please provide link.

The Washington Post issued a retraction yesterday Paul. Two months after they “Broke” a story. Look it up.
Funny how you “miss” things that don’t support your ridiculous beliefs. This the exact “Fake News” that yellow journalistic outlets like the Bezos Post have been spreading for 4 years.

And how about that Biden Border Crisis, huh? Now Dallas is opening up an entire Convention Center to house the flood of illegals.
You “missing” that too?

[XUBANDGRAD]

The Washington Post issued a retraction yesterday Paul. Two months after they “Broke” a story. Look it up.
Funny how you “miss” things that don’t support your ridiculous beliefs. This the exact “Fake News” that yellow journalistic outlets like the Bezos Post have been spreading for 4 years.

And how about that Biden Border Crisis, huh? Now Dallas is opening up an entire Convention Center to house the flood of illegals.
You “missing” that too?

We are housing 3,000 illegals in a convention center while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard.

[GoMuskies]

Might be a good investment to send a whole shitload of those J&J vaccine doses down to the border and jab everyone coming in. Not particularly fair to US citizens who are waiting on their vaccine, but it might be the best bet to avoid a surge related to this group.

[Masterofreality]

might be a good investment to send a whole shitload of those j&j vaccine doses down to the border and jab everyone coming in. Not particularly fair to us citizens who are waiting on their vaccine, but it might be the best bet to avoid a surge related to this group.

equity!!!!!

[XUBANDGRAD]

So we got a crisis at the border, we’ve got a media engaged in what I consider to be a 1984-esque war with the people, and now Biden wants to ship more jobs oversees with a planned corporate tax increase from 21 to 28% in order to pay for his buffoonery of a “covid” relief bill. Why does Amtrak get a billion dollars for covid relief?

[paulxu]

I'm not "missing" anything.
The tape I referred to, and linked to, which MuskieDayton linked my post that contained it, was a tape of Trump pressuring Raffensberger to find 11,780 votes in his favor so he could win by 1.

The new tape, a different tape, of the Georgia investigator with Trump, was finally discovered. If I understand it, it was slightly different than the what the Post reported from an interview with the supervisor of the person. Some of the precise wording was incorrect, but the tenor of the conversation was the same. So...the Post issued a retraction to that...as they should.

Now...should I hold my breath for Trump to retract any of his 30,000 lies? How about just one. How about he retracts that he really won the election bigly.

Then ask yourself, why did Trump's chief of staff visit an investigator in one state in the Union. And why did the president of the United States had time to call and exert pressure on this investigator.

[STL_XUfan]

We are housing 3,000 illegals in a convention center while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard.

I am not sure how one is related to another here?

We are spending billions on defense while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are subsidizing sports stadiums while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are funding high school football while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are painting the Brent Spence Bridge while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are building parks while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are funding jails while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are cutting taxes while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

We are funding museums while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money. We’ve lost our way pretty damn hard?

I think the underlying issue is that while we have homeless vets sleeping on the streets begging for money, and that is independent of all of the other funding decisions that we make. I would call your rep and ask them to support funding for homeless veterans.