Politics Thread

[Xville]

I agree some police need to do better to deescalate the situation and I am sure a lot of them do, but it won’t make the news.

The guy walked up, got in an officer's face, touched another one...what do you think was going to happen?

[STL_XUfan]

The guy walked up, got in an officer's face, touched another one...what do you think was going to happen?

Peacefully deescalate the situation? Possibly, take him into custody or temporarily hold him? Not send an unarmed senior citizen to the ICU. If these officers, who are wearing body armor and carrying weapons, are that afraid of an unarmed senior citizen, maybe they are in the wrong line of work?

[STL_XUfan]

I agree some police need to do better to deescalate the situation and I am sure a lot of them do, but it won’t make the news.

A lot of them have, and it has made the news. A few off the top of my head was the chief up in Flint, the Chief in Atlanta, the speech by the New York police commissioner (I think that is his title) in middle of the protest, and the dancing cops in Omaha and KC. I think those actions should be given praise and held up as examples of good policing. I also think the news should cover the overreaction and unnecessary escalation by other police officers.

I think the bad protesters should be called out and prosecuted for any crimes they commit. I think bad cops should be called out and criminally prosecuted for any crimes they commit.

[Muskie in dayton]

Peacefully deescalate the situation? Possibly, take him into custody or temporarily hold him? Not send an unarmed senior citizen to the ICU. If these officers, who are wearing body armor and carrying weapons, are that afraid of an unarmed senior citizen, maybe they are in the wrong line of work?
You’re asking humans not to be humans. Everyone has a breaking point with enough provoking.

[GoMuskies]

You’re asking humans not to be humans. Everyone has a breaking point with enough provoking.

Hmm, don't disagree with you, but that's an interesting point on the protester side as well.

[Muskie in dayton]

Hmm, don't disagree with you, but that's an interesting point on the protester side as well.

Agree 100%. I've seen Police try to provoke before too.

Unless police stop policing and/or citizens stop being punks, police-citizen altercations will happen. We have to accept that.

[Muskie in dayton]

You got that right.

How is she even a thing? I guess bc what you said, a black women spouting far right wing talking points. She definitely saw a need and filled it. Just a few years ago she was a liberal who criticized republicans and trump. I mean she doesn’t have a college degree, or political experience, or any experience that makes her an expert on anything.

So you're saying that those without a college degree, political experience, or expertise in a particular area can't have an opinion?

[bleedXblue]

Police officers are not robots. They are human, make mistakes and in MANY, MANY cases do the right thing. I've never walked in their shoes or dealt with the kinds of situations and stress that they deal with every day. To say, "they should find another line of work" ......is bullshit and totally unfair. I wouldn't want that job and you couldn't pay me enough money. Not worth the arm chair quarterbacking that they get with everyone having a cell phone now. I respect and appreciate the police.We need law and order in our society. That includes the police. If you learn you have a bad cop, THEY need to remove them. 18 complaints filed against Derek Chauvin. You think maybe they had an issue and didn't act on it? The Floyd family is going to win a MASSIVE lawsuit against the City of Minneapolis and the police union

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/derek-chauvin-what-we-know-trnd/index.html

[xubrew]

Peacefully deescalate the situation? Possibly, take him into custody or temporarily hold him? Not send an unarmed senior citizen to the ICU. If these officers, who are wearing body armor and carrying weapons, are that afraid of an unarmed senior citizen, maybe they are in the wrong line of work?


You’re asking humans not to be humans. Everyone has a breaking point with enough provoking.

Okay, this is what I can't seem to get past....

I know several cops. I also know several ER doctors and nurses. I also know people who work psychiatric hospitals with those who are severely mentally ill.

Out of those three groups, the cops are the ones that are physically attacked the least. Those who are in a psychiatric hospital aren't ever likely to find themselves in a shootout, but a lot of the violence that we've seen has not protesters people who were using lethal force. The old man in this video was CLEARLY not a lethal threat.

If a doctor, nurse, or psychiatrist responded that way to a patient who did nothing more than what this older man did, they would definitely be fired, definitely be sued, and most likely arrested. So, is it asking too much to hold the cops to the same standards that ER doctors, nurses, and psychiatrists are held to when dealing with potentially volatile situations?? I don't think that it is.

[xavierj]

Okay, this is what I can't seem to get past....

I know several cops. I also know several ER doctors and nurses. I also know people who work psychiatric hospitals with those who are severely mentally ill.

Out of those three groups, the cops are the ones that are physically attacked the least. Those who are in a psychiatric hospital aren't ever likely to find themselves in a shootout, but a lot of the violence that we've seen has not protesters people who were using lethal force. The old man in this video was CLEARLY not a lethal threat.

If a doctor, nurse, or psychiatrist responded that way to a patient who did nothing more than what this older man did, they would definitely be fired, definitely be sued, and most likely arrested. So, is it asking too much to hold the cops to the same standards that ER doctors, nurses, and psychiatrists are held to when dealing with potentially volatile situations?? I don't think that it is.

90 police officers were killed in the line of duty last year and I think 4 or 5 over the last week. Are nurses and doctors getting killed at the same rate? Maybe they are but I have not ever heard that.

[xubrew]

90 police officers were killed in the line of duty last year and I think 4 or 5 over the last week. Are nurses and doctors getting killed at the same rate? Maybe they are but I have not ever heard that.

I understand that, and even alluded to it. My point is that we've seen multiple examples of police using high levels of force in situations that aren't any more volatile than what a lot of doctors and nurses face who work with the mentally. Case and point, the video with the old man. That was HARDLY a volatile situation. Not even close. The expectation should be that the police be able to handle a situation like that without harming anyone.

[Muskie in dayton]

Okay, this is what I can't seem to get past....

I know several cops. I also know several ER doctors and nurses. I also know people who work psychiatric hospitals with those who are severely mentally ill.

Out of those three groups, the cops are the ones that are physically attacked the least. Those who are in a psychiatric hospital aren't ever likely to find themselves in a shootout, but a lot of the violence that we've seen has not protesters people who were using lethal force. The old man in this video was CLEARLY not a lethal threat.

If a doctor, nurse, or psychiatrist responded that way to a patient who did nothing more than what this older man did, they would definitely be fired, definitely be sued, and most likely arrested. So, is it asking too much to hold the cops to the same standards that ER doctors, nurses, and psychiatrists are held to when dealing with potentially volatile situations?? I don't think that it is.

I don't know that is a fair comparison. There is a major difference in the nature of the attacks. Medical professionals are getting attacked by someone who they are trying to care for and not in their right mind. It's a mindset that doesn't provoke any "offense", just defense. I will point out that there are instances where attempts to restrain folks in medical care end in serious injuries or deaths. It's unfortunately the nature of physical conflict.

I'm not defending this specific action (don't know enough to defend or condemn it). But we are asking an awful lot from cops to be insulted, spit on, and have things thrown or shot at them, without reacting. I

Finally, I will say this: if it was my daughter who was mouthing off to the cops and was pepper sprayed, I'd tell her sorry, you had it coming.

[Final4]

Finally, I will say this: if it was my daughter who was mouthing off to the cops and was pepper sprayed, I'd tell her sorry, you had it coming.

Ah, responsible parenting. I firmly believe that if we had more of it most of these discussions would be nonexistent.

[X-man]

90 police officers were killed in the line of duty last year and I think 4 or 5 over the last week. Are nurses and doctors getting killed at the same rate? Maybe they are but I have not ever heard that.

But you did claim to see this, from your earlier post on this thread: "Saw one from a highly recruited black football player that said how he hated white people and that white people are trash. No one is pulling his offers."

Still waiting for your source on this. It's not helpful to just make shit up.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The guy walked up, got in an officer's face, touched another one...what do you think was going to happen?

Holy shit you can't be serious. Imagine defending that.

To serve and protect...amirite?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Peacefully deescalate the situation? Possibly, take him into custody or temporarily hold him? Not send an unarmed senior citizen to the ICU. If these officers, who are wearing body armor and carrying weapons, are that afraid of an unarmed senior citizen, maybe they are in the wrong line of work?

Exactly. What world am I living in where someone can defend that. Not even their department defended that as they are being disciplined. If the guy isnt listening cuff him. Geezus.

[D-West & PO-Z]

You’re asking humans not to be humans. Everyone has a breaking point with enough provoking.

You think that was the situation in that video? What a bunch of BS.

There is responsibility on both sides (non peaceful protesters and overaggressive police) but the actions there arent justifiable. Even the freaking police admitted as much.

[D-West & PO-Z]

So you're saying that those without a college degree, political experience, or expertise in a particular area can't have an opinion?

They can sure but her opinion is no more valid than the Kardahsians. There is a reason she has so many followers (or any following at all) and Go alluded to it previously.

[XU 87]

At this point, you have to have your head in the sand to think white Americans and black Americans have the same experience with police, or that there isn't merit to the idea that black people are treated less fairly by police. Is that not racism? Yes, I've seen the stats that cops kill more white people than black people. The nuance that folks pointing to those numbers (willfully) miss is that this difference in treatment isn't borne out by one or two statistics. It's made up largely of the subtle difference in treatment during routine stops, patrols, etc. that add up every day for years and years. Pretty much everyone is intelligent enough to process a somewhat intangible concept like this, but many choose not to and hide behind pure statistics as a shield. Not to cheapen the dialogue, but for a tongue in cheek Xavier example of how statistics may not tell the whole story, note that Quentin Goodin is fourth on Xavier's all time assists chart.



What you're arguing is that anecdotal and subjective evidence is more reliable than objective and statistical evidence. I have never found that to be the case.

I attach an article from National Review. Yes, it's a conservative publication, but I am posting it for the statistics it cites.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/flames-from-false-narratives/

[D-West & PO-Z]

Okay, this is what I can't seem to get past....

I know several cops. I also know several ER doctors and nurses. I also know people who work psychiatric hospitals with those who are severely mentally ill.

Out of those three groups, the cops are the ones that are physically attacked the least. Those who are in a psychiatric hospital aren't ever likely to find themselves in a shootout, but a lot of the violence that we've seen has not protesters people who were using lethal force. The old man in this video was CLEARLY not a lethal threat.

If a doctor, nurse, or psychiatrist responded that way to a patient who did nothing more than what this older man did, they would definitely be fired, definitely be sued, and most likely arrested. So, is it asking too much to hold the cops to the same standards that ER doctors, nurses, and psychiatrists are held to when dealing with potentially volatile situations?? I don't think that it is.

Exactly.

I am sure some will get offended by this but a reason may be those other professions are generally pretty professional higher educated people. You arent always dealing with the brightest people when you are dealing with police officers. I do think that can play a factor.

I could be wrong about the above but that is an area where I think policing needs some reform. I remember reading an article once about a man who really wanted to become a police officer but he scored too high on one of the tests they require. The thought being they dont want people too smart to be police officers because the majority of the job is overall boring and they dont want to train and invest time/money in someone they dont think will be intellectually stimulated enough who will end up quitting.

[xavierj]

But you did claim to see this, from your earlier post on this thread: "Saw one from a highly recruited black football player that said how he hated white people and that white people are trash. No one is pulling his offers."

Still waiting for your source on this. It's not helpful to just make shit up.

Sorry man wasn’t making it up. I saw it last week when this all started so I will see if he still Has it up. Maybe He took it down like the kid who Xavier declined to take. I wasn’t making It up. I think anyone that says racist stuff should be held accountable regardless of color and there should never be tolerance for any of it.

[Juice]

Exactly.

I am sure some will get offended by this but a reason may be those other professions are generally pretty professional higher educated people. You arent always dealing with the brightest people when you are dealing with police officers. I do think that can play a factor.

I could be wrong about the above but that is an area where I think policing needs some reform. I remember reading an article once about a man who really wanted to become a police officer but he scored too high on one of the tests they require. The thought being they dont want people too smart to be police officers because the majority of the job is overall boring and they dont want to train and invest time/money in someone they dont think will be intellectually stimulated enough who will end up quitting.

Many members of CPD are college educated. I know one detective who graduated from UC Law School. I know other officers that went to law school while in the police department and became lawyers.
And it's important to have intelligent officers because they eventually become detectives; whether that's in white collar crime, rape cases, child sexual assault cases, or murder cases. Are some "merely" high school grads? Sure. Others substitute formal education with experience serving in the military. I think you paint an unfair picture of the average police officer.

[Muskie in dayton]

You think that was the situation in that video? What a bunch of BS.

There is responsibility on both sides (non peaceful protesters and overaggressive police) but the actions there arent justifiable. Even the freaking police admitted as much.

Maybe. I learned from the CovCath DC incident not to render judgement on a video clip.

[GoMuskies]

Shaming season for CV-19 social distancing season has officially ended. Feel free now to tell anyone who worries about whether you're wearing a mask or standing too close to them to fuck off.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZxJJy9WoAAwOfz?format=png&name=900x900

[D-West & PO-Z]

Many members of CPD are college educated. I know one detective who graduated from UC Law School. I know other officers that went to law school while in the police department and became lawyers.
And it's important to have intelligent officers because they eventually become detectives; whether that's in white collar crime, rape cases, child sexual assault cases, or murder cases. Are some "merely" high school grads? Sure. Others substitute formal education with experience serving in the military. I think you paint an unfair picture of the average police officer.

Yeah I dont think its all of them. I also think its important to have intelligent officers. I also think there are plenty and I know detectives have to be. I also think there are plenty who arent and think it is such an important and tough job that the minimum requirements of education should be higher.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Maybe. I learned from the CovCath DC incident not to render judgement on a video clip.

I agree that is important in some situations but I dont care if they told that 75 year old man 50 times to move, there was no reason for the action they took. That is why they were suspended without pay.

[Muskie in dayton]

They can sure but her opinion is no more valid than the Kardahsians. There is a reason she has so many followers (or any following at all) and Go alluded to it previously.
I’d say everyone’s opinion is equally valid. Disagreement is fine, but to discount someone’s opinion because of their education level or experience has a bad look.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I’d say everyone’s opinion is equally valid. Disagreement is fine, but to discount someone’s opinion because of their education level or experience has a bad look.

The point isnt about her opinion. It is why she has so many followers. She saw a market to exploit for money and took it. It is similar to Clay Travis. A few years ago both had polar opposite views and opinions.

Are you not seeing the distinction in the discussion?

If she had the exact opposite opinions of what she currently has she would have zero followers. She isnt someone who accomplished something and gained a following because of it and just shares he opinions. She became big bc of her opinions alone as a black women.

[Juice]

The point isnt about her opinion. It is why she has so many followers. She saw a market to exploit for money and took it. It is similar to Clay Travis. A few years ago both had polar opposite views and opinions.

Are you not seeing the distinction in the discussion?

If she had the exact opposite opinions of what she currently has she would have zero followers. She isnt someone who accomplished something and gained a following because of it and just shares he opinions. She became big bc of her opinions alone as a black women.

You could say that about Bill Kristol, Jennifer Rubin, Joe Scarborough, John Kasich or any other "never Trumper" or "reformed former Republican." The left wing media loves people who claim to be former Republicans who "had to leave the party because it lost its way."

[xubrew]

Maybe. I learned from the CovCath DC incident not to render judgement on a video clip.

I thought that particular video clip pretty much exonerated the students.

[xubrew]

Okay, this is what I can't seem to get past....

I know several cops. I also know several ER doctors and nurses. I also know people who work psychiatric hospitals with those who are severely mentally ill.

Out of those three groups, the cops are the ones that are physically attacked the least. Those who are in a psychiatric hospital aren't ever likely to find themselves in a shootout, but a lot of the violence that we've seen has not protesters people who were using lethal force. The old man in this video was CLEARLY not a lethal threat.

If a doctor, nurse, or psychiatrist responded that way to a patient who did nothing more than what this older man did, they would definitely be fired, definitely be sued, and most likely arrested. So, is it asking too much to hold the cops to the same standards that ER doctors, nurses, and psychiatrists are held to when dealing with potentially volatile situations?? I don't think that it is.

Another group that I didn’t mention was social workers. That’s considered one of the 20 most dangerous/deadly jobs, it can be extremely stressful, they are often in harms way, yet we don’t have a ton of incidents of social work brutality, nor do we hear social workers complaining about needing to use higher levels of force to do their jobs.

[Nigel Tufnel]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JoeKinseyexp/status/1268352635645591555

Maybe this guy is onto something...

[GoMuskies]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JoeKinseyexp/status/1268352635645591555

Maybe this guy is onto something...

I think that guy was Pete Rose's younger brother.

[D-West & PO-Z]

You could say that about Bill Kristol, Jennifer Rubin, Joe Scarborough, John Kasich or any other "never Trumper" or "reformed former Republican." The left wing media loves people who claim to be former Republicans who "had to leave the party because it lost its way."

I dont disagree that is why they are loved by left wing media but all of them have actual real life accomplishments for why they are in the positions they are in.

Owens really has none.

[Xville]

Exactly.

I am sure some will get offended by this but a reason may be those other professions are generally pretty professional higher educated people. You arent always dealing with the brightest people when you are dealing with police officers. I do think that can play a factor.

I could be wrong about the above but that is an area where I think policing needs some reform. I remember reading an article once about a man who really wanted to become a police officer but he scored too high on one of the tests they require. The thought being they dont want people too smart to be police officers because the majority of the job is overall boring and they dont want to train and invest time/money in someone they dont think will be intellectually stimulated enough who will end up quitting.

Generalizing an entire group of people based on anecdotal evidence hmm...interesting.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Generalizing an entire group of people based on anecdotal evidence hmm...interesting.

https://www.policefoundation.org/study-examines-higher-education-in-policing/#:~:text=About%20one%20third%20(30.2%20percent,per cent%20have%20a%20graduate%20degree.

I'm sorry if it upsets you but half of police officers dont have any higher education. That isnt an opinion. I'm confused, I thought that was pretty well known?

30% have a 4 year degree. 5% have a graduate degree.

[Muskie in dayton]

I thought that particular video clip pretty much exonerated the students.
Thin initial, much shorter clip showed some entitled white private school boys smirking and chanting while surrounding that poor Native American man just trying to have his voice heard. At least that was the narrative.

Then several videos of the full incident surfaces that showed a very different story that exonerated them.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Thin initial, much shorter clip showed some entitled white private school boys smirking and chanting while surrounding that poor Native American man just trying to have his voice heard. At least that was the narrative.

Then several videos of the full incident surfaces that showed a very different story that exonerated them.

Yes that was a good example of not seeing enough video.

Curious, what would you need to see in a longer video that would justify what they did to that man?

Also keep in mind no one, cops included, have claimed he did anything more than what was seen. The department also suspended two of the officers without pay.

[Muskie in dayton]

The point isnt about her opinion. It is why she has so many followers. She saw a market to exploit for money and took it. It is similar to Clay Travis. A few years ago both had polar opposite views and opinions.

Are you not seeing the distinction in the discussion?

If she had the exact opposite opinions of what she currently has she would have zero followers. She isnt someone who accomplished something and gained a following because of it and just shares he opinions. She became big bc of her opinions alone as a black women.

I had honestly never heard of her before this discussion, but I looked her up and found she’s driven, entrepreneurial, and successful. Even before she had conservat.... actually a better characterization in this case would be “anti-liberal” views.

[noteggs]

Shaming season for CV-19 social distancing season has officially ended. Feel free now to tell anyone who worries about whether you're wearing a mask or standing too close to them to fuck off.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZxJJy9WoAAwOfz?format=png&name=900x900

Finally some voice of reason!

[bjf123]

Shaming season for CV-19 social distancing season has officially ended. Feel free now to tell anyone who worries about whether you're wearing a mask or standing too close to them to fuck off.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZxJJy9WoAAwOfz?format=png&name=900x900

And they wonder why people don’t trust them. I thought the science was settled and we had to practice social distancing or we were all going to die?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xville]

https://www.policefoundation.org/study-examines-higher-education-in-policing/#:~:text=About%20one%20third%20(30.2%20percent,per cent%20have%20a%20graduate%20degree.

I'm sorry if it upsets you but half of police officers dont have any higher education. That isnt an opinion. I'm confused, I thought that was pretty well known?

30% have a 4 year degree. 5% have a graduate degree.

Um no you missed the point. You are generalizing a group of people based on their education level.

[Xville]

And they wonder why people don’t trust them. I thought the science was settled and we had to practice social distancing or we were all going to die?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gotta love lefties...anything to fit their agenda...I'm sure covid-19 will be a systemic problem again in a couple of weeks when protesting ends.

[bobbiemcgee]

Bunkerboy sez it's a great day for GF....except for the fact that he's still dead.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Um no you missed the point. You are generalizing a group of people based on their education level.

My generalization was that police officers aren’t very educated. Which is a fact.

I also followed up in another post saying I know there are plenty who are. As a whole however most have very little if any higher level education. I think that is a problem given the importance of the job.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Bunkerboy sez it's a great day for GF....except for the fact that he's still dead.

Gotta say....I’m “generally” a fan of the bunker boy nickname.

[X Factor]

My brother is a police officer. Worked the streets for 13 years. He's a sergeant and working in internal affairs now. He's been on the hostage negotiation team. He has a 4 year degree in criminology and a master's degree.

You wouldn't believe the things he's seen and dealt with, the stress, etc. Walking into a home and finding someone's son who blew their own head off with a shotgun, or hung themselves in a closet. Getting called to a house where there's babies crawling on the floor covered in dog shit with drugs and needles everywhere, sometimes not even anyone home with them. He's been shot at. He's been in struggles with dudes so high nothing will stop them.

Police officers see the absolute worst of the human race on a daily basis, especially if you work in big city. They're put in situations where they might not make it home to their families.

There's bad cops for sure.

But all these libs who now want to defund police departments...yeah, let's see how that works out.

[Muskie in dayton]

Curious, what would you need to see in a longer video that would justify what they did to that man?.

Five or ten minutes of prior video to watch the shit the police were put through by "civilians". That would be enough. But then I'd also like to watch the prior hour, two, three, maybe more. So we could see what they go through for a 60,000/year salary.

You and me, we don't do shit. We have candy ass jobs where we check in, spend 8 hours, then check out. We go home to our wives and children without fear. When your wife kisses you goodbye in the morning, she knows you'll be home. When a cop's wife or husband kisses them goodbye in the morning, the wonder every day if they'll make it back. Will some POS shoot them? Ambush them? Run over them like Officer Grant in Springdale? Will they end up in an entanglement because of political bullshit like the cop on Ferguson. Piece of shit on drugs bum rushes you and you have to shoot him to save your own life. Yet no one cares about your life. Because the corroborators decide to make up a story that you shot that guy with his hands up. Your go through months of hell to preserve your name and your freedom. For a $60,000/year salary.

What would I want to see to justify what they did to that man? Their word. Because I don't pretend I can judge their job. It's something I'd never want for me, or anyone I care for. A cop's job is to protect an to serve, the vast majority do that with honor. One fucking asshole doesn't change that for me, and it shouldn't change that for you.

[GoMuskies]

I still can't get over the New York Times essentially burning itself down over an op-ed it pitched to Tom Cotton. This literally may be the most remarkable thing that's happened in 2020.

[tacopizza885]

Reps to X Factor, and a ton of credit to his brother. Obviously he has to deal with situations only a few of us would have the courage, bravery, or stability to face. The same can be said (though not equating) about our military, as previously mentioned social workers, physical health coaches/doctors, and obviously mental health professionals.

I really hate getting into political discussions these days. The black/white (no pun intended) perspectives really disturb me. Little, or no attention, is given to gray areas. In my humble opinion, this unrest is a cancer that has been gradually growing, or a festering issue gone unnoticed. Our own reality (whether fortunate, successful, blessed, or otherwise) blinds us, and makes it hard to walk in someone else's shoes (empathy).

Some posters have mentioned Candace Owens, and it appears that Glenn Beck is getting torched on Twitter right now. Whether you consider these people opportunists or "grifters" (which I do), it doesn't really matter.

Our main issue (in my opinion), as a society, is not being able to see the larger picture.

I'm not a big fan of Jordan Peterson, actually disagree with him most of the time. But I think this "Gini Coefficient" talk may interest some people.

https://youtu.be/M3XYHPAwBzE

[D-West & PO-Z]

Five or ten minutes of prior video to watch the shit the police were put through by "civilians". That would be enough. But then I'd also like to watch the prior hour, two, three, maybe more. So we could see what they go through for a 60,000/year salary.

You and me, we don't do shit. We have candy ass jobs where we check in, spend 8 hours, then check out. We go home to our wives and children without fear. When your wife kisses you goodbye in the morning, she knows you'll be home. When a cop's wife or husband kisses them goodbye in the morning, the wonder every day if they'll make it back. Will some POS shoot them? Ambush them? Run over them like Officer Grant in Springdale? Will they end up in an entanglement because of political bullshit like the cop on Ferguson. Piece of shit on drugs bum rushes you and you have to shoot him to save your own life. Yet no one cares about your life. Because the corroborators decide to make up a story that you shot that guy with his hands up. Your go through months of hell to preserve your name and your freedom. For a $60,000/year salary.

What would I want to see to justify what they did to that man? Their word. Because I don't pretend I can judge their job. It's something I'd never want for me, or anyone I care for. A cop's job is to protect an to serve, the vast majority do that with honor. One fucking asshole doesn't change that for me, and it shouldn't change that for you.

Yeah we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. I have lots I could respond with that I see completely differently than you with everything you wrote above but it doesnt make sense to waste either of our times.

[xubrew]

My brother is a police officer. Worked the streets for 13 years. He's a sergeant and working in internal affairs now. He's been on the hostage negotiation team. He has a 4 year degree in criminology and a master's degree.

You wouldn't believe the things he's seen and dealt with, the stress, etc. Walking into a home and finding someone's son who blew their own head off with a shotgun, or hung themselves in a closet. Getting called to a house where there's babies crawling on the floor covered in dog shit with drugs and needles everywhere, sometimes not even anyone home with them. He's been shot at. He's been in struggles with dudes so high nothing will stop them.

Police officers see the absolute worst of the human race on a daily basis, especially if you work in big city. They're put in situations where they might not make it home to their families.

There's bad cops for sure.

But all these libs who now want to defund police departments...yeah, let's see how that works out.

Yes, having to work in that sounds pretty rough. I also agree that defunding the police is not the answer.

But, having to LIVE in an environment like that, every day for all your life, isn't easy either. It makes sense that cops get stressed out in general from having to work in that and can be more prone to snapping. It also makes sense that people who live in that get stressed out in general as well and are more prone to snapping. If that was your house, or your father who shot himself, or your siblings that were crawling around in shit, or you lived on a street where several of the houses were like that, you'd experience a fair amount of stress and frustration.


Five or ten minutes of prior video to watch the shit the police were put through by "civilians". That would be enough. But then I'd also like to watch the prior hour, two, three, maybe more. So we could see what they go through for a 60,000/year salary.

You and me, we don't do shit. We have candy ass jobs where we check in, spend 8 hours, then check out. We go home to our wives and children without fear. When your wife kisses you goodbye in the morning, she knows you'll be home. When a cop's wife or husband kisses them goodbye in the morning, the wonder every day if they'll make it back. Will some POS shoot them? Ambush them? Run over them like Officer Grant in Springdale? Will they end up in an entanglement because of political bullshit like the cop on Ferguson. Piece of shit on drugs bum rushes you and you have to shoot him to save your own life. Yet no one cares about your life. Because the corroborators decide to make up a story that you shot that guy with his hands up. Your go through months of hell to preserve your name and your freedom. For a $60,000/year salary.

What would I want to see to justify what they did to that man? Their word. Because I don't pretend I can judge their job. It's something I'd never want for me, or anyone I care for. A cop's job is to protect an to serve, the vast majority do that with honor. One fucking asshole doesn't change that for me, and it shouldn't change that for you.

Yunno, that sounds an awful lot like what growing up and living in the inner city is like.



My point is that people are more alike than what they realize. We might come from different backgrounds and live in different environments, but we have all of the same emotions even if they are triggered by different experiences. If we could somehow try and empathize with people who are different than us, and who come from different backgrounds, and have had different experiences, we may actually find that we really aren't that different. It's just a shame that we don't do that more. Yes, the cops have a rough job. But if a big part of what makes it rough is having to work in those types of environments, then try and imagine how rough it is for the people who LIVE in those environments.

And, I'll go ahead and state the obvious. A LOT of college football and basketball players grew up (fortunately, because as has been pointed out not everyone makes it to adulthood) living in those rough environments that can make working as a policeman so rough.

[bjf123]

In addition to calls to defund the police, which will never happen, but they might get less money, there’s a push to strip away some of the legal protections the police have. Be careful what you wish for. If that ever happens, which is possible, just watch crime go through the roof as the officers decide it’s not worth going to jail or facing personal civil damages to do anything that might land them in court. Try to tackle some guys who just committed a robbery or assault? Nope. Let him go. High speed chase after a gun fight? Nope. Don’t want to be sued for causing the guy to wreck his car or hit someone else. Let him go. Things will get ugly very quickly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Muskie in dayton]

Yeah we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. I have lots I could respond with that I see completely differently than you with everything you wrote above but it doesnt make sense to waste either of our times.
Thanks. I’ll happily disagree with anyone who wants to disrespect police.

[Muskie in dayton]

Yes, having to work in that sounds pretty rough. I also agree that defunding the police is not the answer.

But, having to LIVE in an environment like that, every day for all your life, isn't easy either. It makes sense that cops get stressed out in general from having to work in that and can be more prone to snapping. It also makes sense that people who live in that get stressed out in general as well and are more prone to snapping. If that was your house, or your father who shot himself, or your siblings that were crawling around in shit, or you lived on a street where several of the houses were like that, you'd experience a fair amount of stress and frustration.



Yunno, that sounds an awful lot like what growing up and living in the inner city is like.



My point is that people are more alike than what they realize. We might come from different backgrounds and live in different environments, but we have all of the same emotions even if they are triggered by different experiences. If we could somehow try and empathize with people who are different than us, and who come from different backgrounds, and have had different experiences, we may actually find that we really aren't that different. It's just a shame that we don't do that more. Yes, the cops have a rough job. But if a big part of what makes it rough is having to work in those types of environments, then try and imagine how rough it is for the people who LIVE in those environments.

And, I'll go ahead and state the obvious. A LOT of college football and basketball players grew up (fortunately, because as has been pointed out not everyone makes it to adulthood) living in those rough environments that can make working as a policeman so rough.
Sadly you are right, and the more people rebuke the police, the more those problems will compound. That’s the real tragedy in all this - inner city life will be getting even harder. The cops are there to help keep the community safe. Push them away and guess what happens?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Thanks. I’ll happily disagree with anyone who wants to disrespect police.

Shame you see it that way but not surprising give your history of posts.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Sadly you are right, and the more people rebuke the police, the more those problems will compound. That’s the real tragedy in all this - inner city life will be getting even harder. The cops are there to help keep the community safe. Push them away and guess what happens?

The cops jobs get tougher and they will decide not to do them is that what you are suggesting?

It seems to me that a lot of the same people who would tell those complaining about their minimum wage jobs to get different jobs or more jobs or go to school are the same ones who say cops have such a tough job and they only make $60,000 a year of course they are going to snap.

If it’s too hard, or you have a chip on your shoulder about not getting enough pay for the job, and you think that entitles you to cross over the line and abuse your power than sounds like it’s not the right job for you.

It’s an Extremely important job and at times a difficult and stressful job. The serve and protect part is the most important part though. And despite videos of their whole lives and shitty experiences leading up to that video posted previously nothing justifies that. That’s not serving or protecting. It’s being an asshole and it’s obviously at the very least against their own policies or code of contact. Their bosses agree obviously.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Thanks. I’ll happily disagree with anyone who wants to disrespect police.

The constitution and citizen’s rights will always be more important to me than police officer’s feelings.

[xavierj]

Sadly you are right, and the more people rebuke the police, the more those problems will compound. That’s the real tragedy in all this - inner city life will be getting even harder. The cops are there to help keep the community safe. Push them away and guess what happens?

I would imagine that there will be more push back toward cops in all areas which will create some problems because people will push harder against law enforcement. Cops will really have tough jobs. In difficult situations they either risk their lives or just not respond to calls for help. I think there needs to be education on all sides. Where will the leadership come to educate people to not commit crimes? Not drop of of school, support the kids you father? This isn’t a black/white thing, this is a society thing. Cops of all races get killed sometimes by criminals and people of all races sometimes get killed by cops. And sometimes people get killed by other people of all races. Our country has a lot more problems that face everyone than police brutality. We need leaders who are about the right things that help everyone.

[xubrew]

SIDEBAR.....

I'm once again falling into the trap of spending too much time on social media. It's like french fries. I shouldn't be eating them. Eat more than a few per day and you're hurting yourself. But, I can't stop eating them. Truth be told we were in pretty bad shape even before all this crap started happening, which is one of the reasons why all this crap is happening. I don't know what the answers are, but I'm pretty sure that spending more than an hour on social media or on cable news isn't it. That being said, I'm having a hard time coming up with something else to do, and I'm finding it to be more difficult than it should be to just turn it off.

Anyway, carry on!!

[STL_XUfan]

My brother is a police officer. Worked the streets for 13 years. He's a sergeant and working in internal affairs now. He's been on the hostage negotiation team. He has a 4 year degree in criminology and a master's degree.

You wouldn't believe the things he's seen and dealt with, the stress, etc. Walking into a home and finding someone's son who blew their own head off with a shotgun, or hung themselves in a closet. Getting called to a house where there's babies crawling on the floor covered in dog shit with drugs and needles everywhere, sometimes not even anyone home with them. He's been shot at. He's been in struggles with dudes so high nothing will stop them.

Police officers see the absolute worst of the human race on a daily basis, especially if you work in big city. They're put in situations where they might not make it home to their families.

There's bad cops for sure.

But all these libs who now want to defund police departments...yeah, let's see how that works out.

I was listening to Slate's political podcast this morning and they were discussing Trump's threat of the insurrection act, and kinda stumbled into an interesting concept. Should the default position of states dealing with protests against the police be to immediately bring in the national guard to handle the protests? It would cut down on the tension as you wouldn't have the protestors face to face with those they are protesting. Further, the police wouldn't have to try to be neutral while feeling insulted by the protestors.

Anecdotally (meaning I didn't look it up at all and could be very wrong), you do not seem to see as many issues between guard member and the protestors.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The two Buffalo police officers who pushed the 75 year old man to the ground were charged with assault in the second degree today.

“Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said in a press conference that the two officers “crossed the line” and “violated the law.” “

“Flynn added that the officers could have arrested Gugino if he was committing a crime. “You arrest him. You don’t take a baton and shove him, along with the officer next to him... You properly arrest him, if he was committing a crime.”“

[Muskie in dayton]

Shame you see it that way but not surprising give your history of posts.

I agree, I do have a history of being objective, pragmatic, and apartisan.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that statement, but if you think I blindly support police, go look at my posts earlier in this thread where I agree fully that the cops were wrong - criminally wrong - in the George Frazier murder. Want more? Go back and look at my posts in the Sam DuBose murder (http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?30065-Sam-Dubose-Officer-Tensing-Murder-Indictment/page2&highlight=tensing).

I am also fair, and I'm unwilling to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Muskie in dayton]

The cops jobs get tougher and they will decide not to do them is that what you are suggesting?

No. I'm saying that cops will be (further) prevented by city administrations from policing against crimes. When policing activity declines, crime increases.

[Muskie in dayton]

The constitution and citizen’s rights will always be more important to me than police officer’s feelings.

They are way more important to me too. But the constitution doesn't grant the freedom to defy police orders.

[D-West & PO-Z]

No. I'm saying that cops will be (further) prevented by city administrations from policing against crimes. When policing activity declines, crime increases.

You have statistics to back that statement up? I’ve looked around to see what I could find. Here’s one article that found the opposite to be true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/07/25/does-more-policing-lead-to-less-crime-or-just-more-racial-resentment/%3foutputType=amp

[D-West & PO-Z]

They are way more important to me too. But the constitution doesn't grant the freedom to defy police orders.

Do you think with the news that the two officers, who pushed the 75 year old man over, have been charged with assault in the second degree that maybe they were just a tad too aggressive? Not only did they break police policy but also the law.

And do you also think that maybe “taking their word” for it, which you suggested earlier, is probably not a good way of doing it since they said the man tripped in their report? Luckily the incident was caught on video and shared.

[XU 87]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/deputy-killed-officers-shot-california-ambush-71117248

A Cincinnati cop was shot at last week. A Vegas cop got killed last week.

[bjf123]

Do you think with the news that the two officers, who pushed the 75 year old man over, have been charged with assault in the second degree that maybe they were just a tad too aggressive? Not only did they break police policy but also the law.

And do you also think that maybe “taking their word” for it, which you suggested earlier, is probably not a good way of doing it since they said the man tripped in their report? Luckily the incident was caught on video and shared.

None of us know what was said between the 75 year old and the police officers. Regardless, he didn’t deserve to end up in the hospital. Personal opinion here, but I don’t think they intended to knock him down and injure him. I think they intended to push him out of the way and that he’d just back up a bit, but not fall on his back and hit his head. That he fell and hit his head is back enough. Where the one who shoved him really screwed up is by not stopping to immediately come to his aid. Instead, he kept walking. You can see another officer stop and get on his radio, but no one actually bent down to the guy on the ground. That’s inexcusable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[D-West & PO-Z]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/deputy-killed-officers-shot-california-ambush-71117248

A Cincinnati cop was shot at last week. A Vegas cop got killed last week.

That’s terrible. Senseless loss of life. Glad they have the suspect in custody and charged with murder. “Good news” (nothing good about any of it) is that people who kill cops are always brought to justice.

[D-West & PO-Z]

None of us know what was said between the 75 year old and the police officers. Regardless, he didn’t deserve to end up in the hospital. Personal opinion here, but I don’t think they intended to knock him down and injure him. I think they intended to push him out of the way and that he’d just back up a bit, but not fall on his back and hit his head. That he fell and hit his head is back enough. Where the one who shoved him really screwed up is by not stopping to immediately come to his aid. Instead, he kept walking. You can see another officer stop and get on his radio, but no one actually bent down to the guy on the ground. That’s inexcusable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah it appeared to me when I watched that one of them stopped for a split second and looked like he was starting to bend down and the one on the radio stopped him from doing so and told him to keep going. Not sure why. I know they had medics close by from what I heard on the video.

I just come back to what purpose did that serve? It was just so absolutely unnecessary. As the DA said, if he isn’t following orders and breaking the law then arrest him. You don’t assault him. I mean he was clearly an old man. Most 75 year olds don’t do well when pushed by two people.

[Muskie in dayton]

That’s terrible. Senseless loss of life. Glad they have the suspect in custody and charged with murder. “Good news” (nothing good about any of it) is that people who kill cops are always brought to justice.

I wish you were right. 0 for 2 here, including the one in Cincinnati that 87 mentiones:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/01/george-floyd-protests-officer-killed-near-oakland-protest-identified/5308024002/

Do you see a problem when we're spending time arguing about a guy that was pushed away by a cop and fell over, when several cops have been shot and killed?

[Muskie in dayton]

You have statistics to back that statement up? I’ve looked around to see what I could find. Here’s one article that found the opposite to be true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/07/25/does-more-policing-lead-to-less-crime-or-just-more-racial-resentment/%3foutputType=amp
I'm afraid we're talking about very different things. My friend who is cop in a borderline bad area. His city forbids them from taking any active aggression arresting someone who resists or flees. The city would rather have criminals walk than take the chance of bad publicity. Granted they don't publish this policy, but word will eventually get around. That will not help neighborhoods be safer.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I wish you were right. 0 for 2 here, including the one in Cincinnati that 87 mentiones:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/01/george-floyd-protests-officer-killed-near-oakland-protest-identified/5308024002/

Do you see a problem when we're spending time arguing about a guy that was pushed away by a cop and fell over, when several cops have been shot and killed?

1. You misunderstood, or I should have been more clear, that when they know who did it and caught they are always put to justice. No one gets off when murdering a cop. We have seen numerous cops get off when murdering citizens, even when charged that is only half (maybe even less) of the battle in a lot of those scenarios.

2. No I don’t see a problem with holding police officers to a higher standards than criminals and murders. You do? Are you saying because those police officers were shot at and some killer that gives a police officer in Buffalo the right to assault the citizens of Buffalo?


Again when a criminal commits a crime or murders and cop or a citizen they are put to justice (when caught obviously). They got to jail for life or a very long time. Unfortunately too many times when an officer murders someone or assaults someone they are sent home on paid administrative leave instead of to jail. A lot of times the taxpayers end up with big settlements to the aggrieved and the police officer continues working.

I don’t know if this happened recently but I know I just learned it recently, but Sam Dubose’s killer got a 300,000+ settlement from UC. Unreal.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Duplicate.

[Muskie in dayton]

It looks like the rest of the department in Buffalo agrees this was over-the-top:
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501378-57-buffalo-officers-resign-from-emergency-response-team-in-response-to (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501378-57-buffalo-officers-resign-from-emergency-response-team-in-response-to)

[D-West & PO-Z]

It looks like the rest of the department in Buffalo agrees this was over-the-top:
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501378-57-buffalo-officers-resign-from-emergency-response-team-in-response-to (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501378-57-buffalo-officers-resign-from-emergency-response-team-in-response-to)

1. Sad. I guess it’s not just a few bad apples in that police department is it?

2. There definitely aren’t any lawyers in that group.

3. It was a completely empty gesture as they are all still employed by the department. They just resigned from that team within the department. It’s probably a good thing for the citizens on Buffalo though because I believe they brought in some people from the national guard instead to do what they were doing.

[XU 87]

A lot of times the taxpayers end up with big settlements to the aggrieved and the police officer continues working.

I don’t know if this happened recently but I know I just learned it recently, but Sam Dubose’s killer got a 300,000+ settlement from UC. Unreal.

This is because the police are protected by their union, which makes it VERY difficult to fire a police officer. But since you're a democrat, are you arguing for less protections for union member's job security when they commit job misconduct?

[XU 87]

And the content of the first part of this article is so frightening (and serious) that I can't even make a snarky comment about it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/george-floyd-live-updates-nine-minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-plans-to-disband-police-department/ar-BB159zvz?ocid=spartandhp

Is there an adult on this council that will say, "It's a really bad idea to have a large city without a police dept."

I also found interesting the part in the above article about the NYT editor resigning for permitting a conservative senator to write an editorial that it's liberal readers found offensive. I always thought lefties claimed they were so tolerant of other's opinions (which is true, unless the left disagrees with the opinion.)

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is because the police are protected by their union, which makes it VERY difficult to fire a police officer. But since you're a democrat, are you arguing for less protections for union member's job security when they commit job misconduct?

I’m not a democrat and in general am not a fan of unions. I read the NY Post a lot and reading on there about the shit teachers get away with in NYC public schools because of the union is a disgrace.

[Masterofreality]

I don’t know if this happened recently but I know I just learned it recently, but Sam Dubose’s killer got a 300,000+ settlement from UC. Unreal.

Know what's unreal? Up here in the Cuyahoga Socialist State, the clueless and Lack-Of-Oversight Mother of Tamir Rice was given $8 million dollars from *somewhere* in the allegedly tight Cleveland city budget for the police shooting of Rice. Samaria Rice didn't have any control over her son, but she gets a lifetime income payment. Consider:

A) 12 year old Tamir was in a city park in a hoodie and hat that semi-shielded his face. So much so that the 911 caller who was threatened by Rice told the dispatcher that the guy threatening him was 20.
B) Rice had taken a toy gun, an "airsoft pellet" gun and removed the "toy markings" (orange markings) making it look like a real weapon.
C) Rice was brandishing the weapon about toward numerous passers-by until one called 911.
D) When Cleveland Police arrived, and this is on a close by surveillance tape, the first move Rice made was to point the "weapon" at the police car and the cop who was getting out. Remember that the cops had been told that 1) A 20 year old guy had a gun, and B) He was threatening people.
E) A Grand Jury refused to indict the cop Timothy Loehman.

So what were the cops to do?

Samaria Rice just let her kid run wild and act like a sniper in a park, yet she gets $8 mill? But JUSTICE!!!!!!!.... Bullcrap.

[Muskie in dayton]

1. You misunderstood, or I should have been more clear, that when they know who did it and caught they are always put to justice. No one gets off when murdering a cop. We have seen numerous cops get off when murdering citizens, even when charged that is only half (maybe even less) of the battle in a lot of those scenarios.

2. No I don’t see a problem with holding police officers to a higher standards than criminals and murders. You do? Are you saying because those police officers were shot at and some killer that gives a police officer in Buffalo the right to assault the citizens of Buffalo?


Again when a criminal commits a crime or murders and cop or a citizen they are put to justice (when caught obviously). They got to jail for life or a very long time. Unfortunately too many times when an officer murders someone or assaults someone they are sent home on paid administrative leave instead of to jail. A lot of times the taxpayers end up with big settlements to the aggrieved and the police officer continues working.

I don’t know if this happened recently but I know I just learned it recently, but Sam Dubose’s killer got a 300,000+ settlement from UC. Unreal.

The Buffalo cops were ordered to clear the square - it was their job. Here's what it comes down to. I don't want any cop to lose their life in the line of duty. It saddens me greatly when this happens. I watched Kaia Grant's (Springdale cop that some asshole ran over, if you are not familiar) funeral in it's entirety, and cried. Why do I care so much? Maybe it's because I have a very dear friend that risks his life in this line duty as a cop. Maybe it's because I feel so bad someone lost their life so young, by just doing their job. Maybe it's because I value and respect what they do - a cop may have saved my life.

As to Buffalo, I don't want cops put into situations they cannot defend themselves because they have to make a split second decision to defend themselves or not. On one hand if you're wrong, you have criminal charges. On the other hand if you're wrong, your dead. I don't want groups of people, media, or anyone feeling like they have free reign on disrespecting their profession and playing Monday morning quarterback on their every move. Cops have to make split second decision like this because people are trying to kill them. For that reason I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Minneapolis: No doubt. Buffalo: a lot of doubt. It is a travesty they are facing charges for doing their job.

[Muskie in dayton]

How about a new topic. Does anyone find it coincidence that in one day, Bush, Romney and Powell - three prominent Republicans - all come out and endorse Biden? Could this be the groundwork for a Republican convention coup? How great would that be...

[D-West & PO-Z]

Know what's unreal? Up here in the Cuyahoga Socialist State, the clueless and Lack-Of-Oversight Mother of Tamir Rice was given $8 million dollars from *somewhere* in the allegedly tight Cleveland city budget for the police shooting of Rice. Samaria Rice didn't have any control over her son, but she gets a lifetime income payment. Consider:

A) 12 year old Tamir was in a city park in a hoodie and hat that semi-shielded his face. So much so that the 911 caller who was threatened by Rice told the dispatcher that the guy threatening him was 20.
B) Rice had taken a toy gun, an "airsoft pellet" gun and removed the "toy markings" (orange markings) making it look like a real weapon.
C) Rice was brandishing the weapon about toward numerous passers-by until one called 911.
D) When Cleveland Police arrived, and this is on a close by surveillance tape, the first move Rice made was to point the "weapon" at the police car and the cop who was getting out. Remember that the cops had been told that 1) A 20 year old guy had a gun, and B) He was threatening people.
E) A Grand Jury refused to indict the cop Timothy Loehman.

So what were the cops to do?

Samaria Rice just let her kid run wild and act like a sniper in a park, yet she gets $8 mill? But JUSTICE!!!!!!!.... Bullcrap.

This post is riddled with inaccuracies MOR. From what the 911 caller said down to the settlement amount.

1. It was 3:30pm and he was 12 year old in a park. Are you suggesting a 12 year old shouldn’t be unsupervised in a park at 3:30pm?

2. The 911 caller told the dispatcher that he was “probably a juvenile” (not 20 like you assert) and the gun was “probably fake”. The police did not get this information from the dispatcher. Not their fault but a huge fault of the dispatcher that is one of the first cluster fucks by a city employee.

3. The cop who shot him should have never been hired in the first place. He resigned (before he could be fired) from his previous job with another police department. Cleveland didn’t dye their due diligence. Let’s see was his former boss had to say about him :

"He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal.”
"I do not believe Ptl. Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment.”
“It appears from the pattern developing within our short time frame with Ptl. Loehmann that he often feels that when told to do something, that those instructions are optional.”
“He lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer.”
"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies.”

4. The cop driving for whatever reason chose to drive with feet of Tamir rice. He was later disciplined for this egregious error:
“Garmback's disciplinary letter says he erred when he drove too close to Tamir when responding to what Garmback believed to be an armed suspect.“

5. The cop states he yelled three times for Tamir to get his hands up. Yet he shot within 2 seconds of pulling up. Your assertion that Tamir pointed the gun at the police officer getting out is wrong. He wouldn’t and didn’t have time to do that. The video isn’t great but it does appear his hand is coming out of his pocket either of his pants or hoodie pocket. To say he was pointing the gun is false though.

6. Rice did not remove the orange marking at the tip of the gun. It was not there but the gun was not his and he did not remove it. You say it asserting he did it as some sort of action that should further justify him being shot but he didn’t even do it. Obviously it’s unfortunate though that it wasn’t on there as people in the park would have known it was fake and maybe the guy calling 911 wouldn’t have called or would have been able to say it’s definitely fake instead of probably which again the dispatcher did not communicate to police.

7. More evidence of failure in general by the Cleveland police dept: “The shooting fit into a broader history of dysfunction at the Cleveland Division of Police. Two weeks after Tamir’s death, the Justice Department released a scathing report accusing the department of a pattern of excessive force for which officers were rarely disciplined, and pressed the department to accept a federal monitor. Just a year before, in 2013, an investigation by the state attorney general found “systemic failure” in the department.
It also highlighted shortcomings in the department’s vetting process for recruits. Police records show that Officer Loehmann was hired without a review of his file at a previous department, where he resigned after suffering a “dangerous loss of composure” during firearms training.“

8. The settlement was for 6 million not 8 million.

Whether the police should have gone to trial is definitely not a sure thing and I’m not arguing they should have been indicted. They were obviously not give all the info by the 911 dispatcher That could have prevented this. It seems their department thinks they made several mistakes though. Those mistakes coupled with the 911 dispatchers egregious error and the fact the cop who did the shooting was essentially fired before he could ever get started with another dept and Cleveland didn’t even bother to look into that more than warrants compensation to his family.

[GoMuskies]

How about a new topic. Does anyone find it coincidence that in one day, Bush, Romney and Powell - three prominent Republicans - all come out and endorse Biden? Could this be the groundwork for a Republican convention coup? How great would that be...

I'm for it, but those guys are all out of favor with whatever the Republican party is right now.

[Juice]

How about a new topic. Does anyone find it coincidence that in one day, Bush, Romney and Powell - three prominent Republicans - all come out and endorse Biden? Could this be the groundwork for a Republican convention coup? How great would that be...

Bush is now denying the claim. Powell hasn't voted for a Republican president in what will be his 4th straight election.

[Lloyd Braun]

How about a new topic. Does anyone find it coincidence that in one day, Bush, Romney and Powell - three prominent Republicans - all come out and endorse Biden? Could this be the groundwork for a Republican convention coup? How great would that be...

How about a coup at both conventions? Best coup wins my vote.

[boozehound]

How about a new topic. Does anyone find it coincidence that in one day, Bush, Romney and Powell - three prominent Republicans - all come out and endorse Biden? Could this be the groundwork for a Republican convention coup? How great would that be...

I would certainly love that. Can we get another chance at Romney?

[Muskie in dayton]

I would certainly love that. Can we get another chance at Romney?
Here, here! He’s the only Republican I’ve voted for President and the vote I’m most proud of.

[Muskie in dayton]

How about a coup at both conventions? Best coup wins my vote.
Sounds awesome! Put ‘me on pay-per-view - I’m buying!

[GoMuskies]

You can't make this stuff up. One of the big new slogans coming from (certain segments of) the left is "Silence is consent". Just let that marinate for a second.

[boozehound]

You can't make this stuff up. One of the big new slogans coming from (certain segments of) the left is "Silence is consent". Just let that marinate for a second.

Did they already forget about the Me Too movement?

In other 'ridiculous shit' news: Minneapolis City Council is pledging to 'disband' the police department? That seems like a truly terrible idea. I'm pretty far from a defender of the Police in most cases, but having no Police seems worse than having a corrupt Department. Maybe just fix the culture?

Also - This is a great example of why I don't like Unions. Good luck efficiently dealing with problem Police officers with a strong Police Union...

[Xville]

You can't make this stuff up. One of the big new slogans coming from (certain segments of) the left is "Silence is consent". Just let that marinate for a second.

A new week, a new thing for the left to be offended about.

[bobbiemcgee]

A new week, a new thing for the left to be offended about.

80% say the Country is out of control. So the Trump righties have that going for them into the election.

[GoMuskies]

80% say the Country is out of control. So the Trump righties have that going for them into the election.

And Democrats seem intent on squandering the opportunity to push all blame for that state of affairs on Trump. They seem intent to show everyone that THEY'RE going to make sure the country stays out of control.

[paulxu]

Is Minneapolis planning on NO police department...or do they plan to re-organize?

[SemajParlor]

A new week, a new thing for the left to be offended about.

Ahh yes, being against sexual assault and murder. Quite the softies.

[GoMuskies]

Well, CERTAIN sexual assault and CERTAIN murder.

[XU 87]

80% say the Country is out of control. So the Trump righties have that going for them into the election.

I am part of that 80% that believes the country is out of control. I also don't blame Trump, and I don't particularly like Trump.

[XU 87]

Is Minneapolis planning on NO police department...or do they plan to re-organize?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html

Minneapolis is on its way to being the next Detroit.

[Juice]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html

Minnesota is on its way to being the next Detroit.

It's begun

https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-relocate-from-city/571104922/


A Minneapolis manufacturing company has decided to leave the city, with the company’s owner saying he can’t trust public officials who allowed his plant to burn during the recent riots. The move will cost the city about 50 jobs.

“They don’t care about my business,” said Kris Wyrobek, president and owner of 7-Sigma Inc., which has operated since 1987 at 2843 26th Av. in south Minneapolis. “They didn’t protect our people. We were all on our own.”

[bleedXblue]

Let Minneapolis be the guinea pig.

I'm all for disbanding the police union. Set some realistic and strong reform but most importantly once you recognize you have a bad cop, remove them!!!!

[bleedXblue]

It's begun

https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-relocate-from-city/571104922/

And so it should. Their will be significant tax revenue loss as a result of business owners deciding to leave or simply not expanding or relocating into MN.

[SemajParlor]

Let Minneapolis be the guinea pig.

I'm all for disbanding the police union. Set some realistic and strong reform but most importantly once you recognize you have a bad cop, remove them!!!!

I haven't currently formed a belief on the best way for in my opinion needed police reform so this is neither an endorsement or a critique. I just read this earlier regarding the guinea pig.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/police-reform-ideas-united-states-george-floyd-1.5601990

[boozehound]

I haven't currently formed a belief on the best way for in my opinion needed police reform so this is neither an endorsement or a critique. I just read this earlier regarding the guinea pig.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/police-reform-ideas-united-states-george-floyd-1.5601990

Camden is just up the road from me (less than 10 miles), and I have actually volunteered in support of a few different initiatives there. It's still a pretty rough place, but they have done a good job driving some incremental change and the Police have been a big part of that as has overall community leadership. I've only lived here about 2 years so I really can't speak to how it was before they dissolved the Police and re-built the force.

[xu82]

Body cams are a GREAT invention. If yours is not on, I have to wonder why. As a cop I’d see that as part of my protection.

[bjf123]

Also - This is a great example of why I don't like Unions. Good luck efficiently dealing with problem Police officers with a strong Police Union...

The Left is going to have to tread lightly here. In order to be able to easily get rid of bad cops, the unions must be less powerful and ready to abandon its members to satisfy the political winds. Will the Left really campaign against the police unions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nigel Tufnel]

I’ve thought about the 9th inning bullpen call for the last several months. I’ve decided on this...at the Democratic Convention, over the loud speaker, you hear, “and the Democratic nominee for the 2020 Presidential election is...”. The lights go out...and then you hear over the loud speaker....”IF YA SMELLLLLLLLL, WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN’!!!”

I have a lot of very conservative friends. When I tell them this, instead of laughing or telling me that’s absurd...they say, “yeah...it’s possible. All bets were off after Obama and Trump were elected.”

At the first debate, Rock tells Trump he’s going to take his size 13 boot, shine it up real nice, turn that somabitch sideways...and stick it straight up Trump’s candy ass.

That would make for entertaining tv...hehe.

If our country is going to go full blown Idiocracy, let’s do it right.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LQgIgRzsfi4&feature=share

I need one of my XU brothers or sisters to post that “It’s Happening” meme. I would put money down that he will be the President during our lives.

[Juice]

Body cams are a GREAT invention. If yours is not on, I have to wonder why. As a cop I’d see that as part of my protection.

You can't have them on at all hours when on duty. That amount of data is costly. Also, they're turned off when personal conversations are being had between officers or if they're on the phone with a family, or other situations like that.

And most police are fine with the body cams because it often shows that they did or didn't do something contrary to what a suspect/defendant may allege.

[Masterofreality]

80% say the Country is out of control. So the Trump righties have that going for them into the election.

A link or it's a lie on that percentage.

Also. Out of control from what side? The rioters and arsonists, or the "law and order" side?

There is tons of "out of control" behavior from the Left for sure. And how about "out of control" press like the Washington Post tweeting out a prewritten story at 7:45am Friday saying that the unemployment rate hit 20% in advance of the BLS numbers. Oh, they had to pull that story 15 minutes later when the actual numbers came out adding 2.5 million jobs and dropping the unemployment to around 13%. Yeah, credible news source. What happened to waiting on the stats, then reporting the news from it? Oh. "narrative"....

And, yeah. Good old dependable Paul Krugman in the NYT stating directly in his article that someone from Trump "got to" the BLS to change the numbers. Ahahahahahahaha. The "BLS" consists of 2,400 non politically appointed employees who statistically put this stuff together with zero contact from the executive branch. NO ONE is playing with the numbers and Krugman still having a forum is ludicrous...but after all, it is the NYT.

[X-man]

A link or it's a lie on that percentage.

Also. Out of control from what side? The rioters and arsonists, or the "law and order" side?

There is tons of "out of control" behavior from the Left for sure. And how about "out of control" press like the Washington Post tweeting out a prewritten story at 7:45am Friday saying that the unemployment rate hit 20% in advance of the BLS numbers. Oh, they had to pull that story 15 minutes later when the actual numbers came out adding 2.5 million jobs and dropping the unemployment to around 13%. Yeah, credible news source. What happened to waiting on the stats, then reporting the news from it? Oh. "narrative"....

And, yeah. Good old dependable Paul Krugman in the NYT stating directly in his article that someone from Trump "got to" the BLS to change the numbers. Ahahahahahahaha. The "BLS" consists of 2,400 non politically appointed employees who statistically put this stuff together with zero contact from the executive branch. NO ONE is playing with the numbers and Krugman still having a forum is ludicrous...but after all, it is the NYT.
As usual, not true. Link to Krugman piece: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/opinion/coronavirus-jobs-report.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

[boozehound]

The Left is going to have to tread lightly here. In order to be able to easily get rid of bad cops, the unions must be less powerful and ready to abandon its members to satisfy the political winds. Will the Left really campaign against the police unions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure. I think that the protesters and the 'activist' side of the Democratic party would trade Police Unions for increased accountability, however the mainstream Democrats have long relied on those endorsements, particularly in State and Local elections.


You can't have them on at all hours when on duty. That amount of data is costly. Also, they're turned off when personal conversations are being had between officers or if they're on the phone with a family, or other situations like that.

And most police are fine with the body cams because it often shows that they did or didn't do something contrary to what a suspect/defendant may allege.

Which is OK, but I saw a decent amount of footage of Police with tape over their body cams when responding to the riots. I think those officers should be fired. That's a pretty ominous message about what they are there to do.

Similarly, if you 'accidentally' forgot to turn your body cam on a certain number of times when engaging with suspects I would expect to see escalating disciplinary action ultimately leading to termination.

[Lamont Sanford]

Considering the concept of defunding and/or actually dismantling police departments is such a major talking point for the leftists...I'm curious to know who on here is for dismantling police departments across the country and why. As someone who is COMPLETELY against it, please educate me on what benefits I must be missing.

[STL_XUfan]

Considering the concept of defunding and/or actually dismantling police departments is such a major talking point for the leftists...I'm curious to know who on here is for dismantling police departments across the country and why. As someone who is COMPLETELY against it, please educate me on what benefits I must be missing.

So the problem with the Democrats is that they are awful at naming shit (something the republicans are great at). Any phrase they come up with is easily able to be turned into a weapon against them.

The proposals I have heard from those pushing the "defund police" concept, isn't really terminating police departments but instead trying to reimagine what community policing looks like. As of right now everything that society doesn't want to deal with falls on the police, namely mental illness and homelessness. Instead of sending a man with a gun to deal with these situations, they would send social workers. This would remove the burden from the police dept. and allow them to concentrate on crime. This would be paid for by shifting police funding into these alternative solutions.

I don't think any sane person is saying that we have no need for a police dept. at all, but instead maybe the status quo ain't working and we should rethink how we handle some of these situations.

[XU 87]

As usual, not true. Link to Krugman piece: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/opinion/coronavirus-jobs-report.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

It was actually on Krugman's twitter page on June 5 where he questioned whether Trump got to the BLS to change the numbers:

https://twitter.com/KimStrassel?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp %7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Scroll about halfway down Strassel's page.

I guess Paul changed his mind after the Harvard econ. professor, who worked in the Obama administration, told Paul that he was 100% wrong.

[paulxu]

Let's hope we can get back to regular employment numbers a lot faster than last time. Good to see it headed in the right direction:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1wpr-PXEsNQ/Xto-d-Ql1WI/AAAAAAAA1BA/SRXJ4TPadv8x3Q6EFA5Am-BQAORDo1IUgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/EmployRecessionMay2020.PNG

[Xville]

So the problem with the Democrats is that they are awful at naming shit (something the republicans are great at). Any phrase they come up with is easily able to be turned into a weapon against them.

The proposals I have heard from those pushing the "defund police" concept, isn't really terminating police departments but instead trying to reimagine what community policing looks like. As of right now everything that society doesn't want to deal with falls on the police, namely mental illness and homelessness. Instead of sending a man with a gun to deal with these situations, they would send social workers. This would remove the burden from the police dept. and allow them to concentrate on crime. This would be paid for by shifting police funding into these alternative solutions.

I don't think any sane person is saying that we have no need for a police dept. at all, but instead maybe the status quo ain't working and we should rethink how we handle some of these situations.

This is typical of the way America fixes things...let's put a bandaid on it, and hope that helps. Defunding police to give to social workers or "community programs" is so typical of not actually fixing the issue.

My thought to fix things would be to first break up the police union, look into hiring and firing practices, further fund the police to develop training and development programs, institute stringent performance reviews etc., but no let's do the stupid thing and just move the issues to some other department or program that also hasnt worked for decades upon decades while city communities suffer.

[xubrew]

You can't make this stuff up. One of the big new slogans coming from (certain segments of) the left is "Silence is consent". Just let that marinate for a second.

My check please!!


I am part of that 80% that believes the country is out of control. I also don't blame Trump, and I don't particularly like Trump.

So, it sounds like 20 percent of the people in this country are complete morons. Only 20! That's better than I thought.

I don't really blame Trump either. I do think that to a large degree his approach enables him to personally thrive when things are out of control. But, I agree that he's hardly the genesis of why things are out of control.

[Lamont Sanford]

This is typical of the way America fixes things...let's put a bandaid on it, and hope that helps. Defunding police to give to social workers or "community programs" is so typical of not actually fixing the issue.

My thought to fix things would be to first break up the police union, look into hiring and firing practices, further fund the police to develop training and development programs, institute stringent performance reviews etc., but no let's do the stupid thing and just move the issues to some other department or program that also hasnt worked for decades upon decades while city communities suffer.

Good luck trying to break up the police unions across the country. Unions have protected bad cops, bad teachers, bad auto workers, etc etc for years. Ain't gonna happen. Also, good luck convincing a social worker that he/she now has to deal with domestic dispute calls which are commonly the most dangerous for cops.

[Muskie in dayton]

So the problem with the Democrats is that they are awful at naming shit (something the republicans are great at). Any phrase they come up with is easily able to be turned into a weapon against them.

The proposals I have heard from those pushing the "defund police" concept, isn't really terminating police departments but instead trying to reimagine what community policing looks like. As of right now everything that society doesn't want to deal with falls on the police, namely mental illness and homelessness. Instead of sending a man with a gun to deal with these situations, they would send social workers. This would remove the burden from the police dept. and allow them to concentrate on crime. This would be paid for by shifting police funding into these alternative solutions.

I don't think any sane person is saying that we have no need for a police dept. at all, but instead maybe the status quo ain't working and we should rethink how we handle some of these situations.

I wish you were right. A friend sent me some examples of community postings from a small liberal city in Michigan, as part of a campaign to defund the police. Because they seriously, really do, want a world without police:

1. "Someone seems to be snooping in car windows on your block. IMAGINE... calling your neighbors who are trained in self-defense & deescalation & approaching the person. An hour later the conflict is resolved & the person responsible is getting the support they need. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

2.
"You are experiencing intimate partner violence. IMAGINE... texting a number & a trauma informed crisis intervention specialist meets you in a safe place. An hour later you are working together to make a plan that will keep you safe long term. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

3.
"Incidents of gun violence are rising in the neighborhood. IMAGINE... a trauma informed crisis intervention team works with community activists to disarm and deescalate conflicts. People doing harm are connected to services that address the underlying problem. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

I promise I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I were.

[bleedXblue]

This stuff isn't easy. Sometimes is really damn hard. That's why (IMHO) cops overreact and make poor decisions at times. They're stressed out. Might have had a near miss or might have been shot at earlier in their shift. Anyone on here put their life on the line everyday? Anyone on here pull someone over and have to deal with the possibility of that person being armed and dangerous? Don't feed me this, "you chose that line of work" so you have to deal with it.....
Cops are human. Very stressful line of work. Not an excuse......but it is reality.

It has to be a combination of several types of reform. It all starts with the unions who rightfully protect their members. You CANT allow bad cops to police. Easier said than done.

[JTG]

Two big problems cops have to deal with are mental illness and homeless people. Because some do gooders thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea. Take some of the police budget and rebuild and staff the asylums, which would take a lot of the social work off the cop's plates. Leaving them to deal with real crime.

[XU 87]

I wish you were right. A friend sent me some examples of community postings from a small liberal city in Michigan, as part of a campaign to defund the police. Because they seriously, really do, want a world without police:

1. "Someone seems to be snooping in car windows on your block. IMAGINE... calling your neighbors who are trained in self-defense & deescalation & approaching the person. An hour later the conflict is resolved & the person responsible is getting the support they need. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

2.
"You are experiencing intimate partner violence. IMAGINE... texting a number & a trauma informed crisis intervention specialist meets you in a safe place. An hour later you are working together to make a plan that will keep you safe long term. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

3.
"Incidents of gun violence are rising in the neighborhood. IMAGINE... a trauma informed crisis intervention team works with community activists to disarm and deescalate conflicts. People doing harm are connected to services that address the underlying problem. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

I promise I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I were.

This is just more liberal fantasy world- "Gosh, if we can get really smart experts to just talk to these criminals, not only will we be able to diffuse these violent situations, but the criminals will stop committing crimes!!" And then when this doesn't work, and this town becomes a cesspool of crime, the liberal policy makers will claim that the reason the new policies haven't worked is because not enough money is being spent to enforce these ridiculous policies.

[Juice]

Two big problems cops have to deal with are mental illness and homeless people. Because some do gooders thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea. Take some of the police budget and rebuild and staff the asylums, which would take a lot of the social work off the cop's plates. Leaving them to deal with real crime.

Then you have to "lock" people up without due process. Most people in asylums have been placed there because of court hearings that require them to hold in a mental health institution. Without that, what person is going to stay in a facility like that?

[boozehound]

I wish you were right. A friend sent me some examples of community postings from a small liberal city in Michigan, as part of a campaign to defund the police. Because they seriously, really do, want a world without police:

1. "Someone seems to be snooping in car windows on your block. IMAGINE... calling your neighbors who are trained in self-defense & deescalation & approaching the person. An hour later the conflict is resolved & the person responsible is getting the support they need. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

2.
"You are experiencing intimate partner violence. IMAGINE... texting a number & a trauma informed crisis intervention specialist meets you in a safe place. An hour later you are working together to make a plan that will keep you safe long term. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

3.
"Incidents of gun violence are rising in the neighborhood. IMAGINE... a trauma informed crisis intervention team works with community activists to disarm and deescalate conflicts. People doing harm are connected to services that address the underlying problem. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

I promise I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I were.

This is the problem with the internet. None of that shit is ever going to happen, nor should it. It makes no sense. The internet has given every idiot, liberal or conservative, a platform. Just because a handful of hippies believe that crap doesn't mean it's going to ever become policy.

[JTG]

Then you have to "lock" people up without due process. Most people in asylums have been placed there because of court hearings that require them to hold in a mental health institution. Without that, what person is going to stay in a facility like that?

So you have them on a 72 hr hold at the asylum, until their hearing. That gives a doc time to see if they're crazy.

[Muskie in dayton]

This is the problem with the internet. None of that shit is ever going to happen, nor should it. It makes no sense. The internet has given every idiot, liberal or conservative, a platform. Just because a handful of hippies believe that crap doesn't mean it's going to ever become policy.
It’s not the internet. These are posters and billboards displayed around town. As to it not happening... I hope your right, but it wouldn’t surprise me if some hyper-liberal cities go that far.

[X-man]

I wish you were right. A friend sent me some examples of community postings from a small liberal city in Michigan, as part of a campaign to defund the police. Because they seriously, really do, want a world without police:

1. "Someone seems to be snooping in car windows on your block. IMAGINE... calling your neighbors who are trained in self-defense & deescalation & approaching the person. An hour later the conflict is resolved & the person responsible is getting the support they need. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

2.
"You are experiencing intimate partner violence. IMAGINE... texting a number & a trauma informed crisis intervention specialist meets you in a safe place. An hour later you are working together to make a plan that will keep you safe long term. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

3.
"Incidents of gun violence are rising in the neighborhood. IMAGINE... a trauma informed crisis intervention team works with community activists to disarm and deescalate conflicts. People doing harm are connected to services that address the underlying problem. Isn't that PUBLIC SAFETY?"

I promise I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I were.

Your friend must have been referring to the town of Bolinas, which is in California rather than Michigan. Only Bolinas would be crazy enough to take seriously the "conflict resolution" process he/she describes in your post. Even the most radical of the Minneapolis Council isn't saying that there should be no police. Defunding is just code for reorganizing.

[cutterX]

Two big problems cops have to deal with are mental illness and homeless people. Because some do gooders thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea. Take some of the police budget and rebuild and staff the asylums, which would take a lot of the social work off the cop's plates. Leaving them to deal with real crime.

That "Do Gooder" who thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea was President Ronald Reagan. He overturned Carter's Mental Health Systems Act which would have continued federal funds for mental health with states assistance. Most federal funding for mental health treatments then dried up. Kind of karmic then that Reagan was later shot by a dude with schizophrenia.

[JTG]

That "Do Gooder" who thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea was President Ronald Reagan. He overturned Carter's Mental Health Systems Act which would have continued federal funds for mental health with states assistance. Most federal funding for mental health treatments then dried up. Kind of karmic then that Reagan was later shot by a dude with schizophrenia.

I don't care who it was, mental facilities need to be built, staffed, and filled. Better for all in the long run.

[X-man]

That "Do Gooder" who thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea was President Ronald Reagan. He overturned Carter's Mental Health Systems Act which would have continued federal funds for mental health with states assistance. Most federal funding for mental health treatments then dried up. Kind of karmic then that Reagan was later shot by a dude with schizophrenia.

I was working for the BLS (and yes, MOR, I agree with you about the professionalism of the BLS operation; we were completely apolitical, and dedicated to providing the best measures we could on unemployment, inflation, and other indicators of the health of the US economy) in DC when Reagan did that. Almost overnight, the streets around Judiciary Square (near my office) filled up with mentally disturbed, and seemingly homeless, people sleeping on Metro grates. It was, to say the least, a sad and disturbing development.

[Juice]

So you have them on a 72 hr hold at the asylum, until their hearing. That gives a doc time to see if they're crazy.

How would these people be referred to these asylums? Because another person reports them? What court will be holding these hearings? Would they be able to hire an attorney of their choosing within 72 hours before their freedoms are taken away? How long of a period of time would they be held?

The criminal court system in Ohio actually holds many of these hearings. But each person has an attorney, probable cause hearings are held, at least one court appointed doctor interviews and reviews each case determining whether the person is "fine", not competent to stand trial, or actually insane and not able to stand for trial. And they take way longer than 72 hours to make that determination.

Hamilton County currently has mental health court to handle low level felony and misdemeanor cases. They also offer probation with components that help people with mental health issues (MDO probation). And they have a court clinic that helps review people that may or may not have mental health issues.

I don't necessarily disagree with more mental health facilities, but locking people up for an endless amount of time with a hearing held within 72 hours doesn't seem like something that is constitutional.

[Strange Brew]

That "Do Gooder" who thought closing asylums and mainstreaming crazy people was a good idea was President Ronald Reagan. He overturned Carter's Mental Health Systems Act which would have continued federal funds for mental health with states assistance. Most federal funding for mental health treatments then dried up. Kind of karmic then that Reagan was later shot by a dude with schizophrenia.

with schizophrenia and ties the Bush family (connnnnnspiracy) :)

[bjf123]

This is just more liberal fantasy world- "Gosh, if we can get really smart experts to just talk to these criminals, not only will we be able to diffuse these violent situations, but the criminals will stop committing crimes!!" And then when this doesn't work, and this town becomes a cesspool of crime, the liberal policy makers will claim that the reason the new policies haven't worked is because not enough money is being spent to enforce these ridiculous policies.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Just throw money at the problem. The rich aren’t paying their fair share! That’s always the solution from the Left.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lamont Sanford]

[QUOTE=bjf123;676832]Ding! Ding! Ding! Just throw money at the problem. The rich aren’t paying their fair share! That’s always the solution from the Left.

+1. Just look at public schools and how much money is annually thrown at those kids. It's no wonder we are in this current climate within the US...these underperforming public school kids are now the "peaceful protest-rioters".

[X-man]

[QUOTE=bjf123;676832]Ding! Ding! Ding! Just throw money at the problem. The rich aren’t paying their fair share! That’s always the solution from the Left.

+1. Just look at public schools and how much money is annually thrown at those kids. It's no wonder we are in this current climate within the US...these underperforming public school kids are now the "peaceful protest-rioters".

WTF? How do you know this?

[Muskie in dayton]

[QUOTE=bjf123;676832]Ding! Ding! Ding! Just throw money at the problem. The rich aren’t paying their fair share! That’s always the solution from the Left.

+1. Just look at public schools and how much money is annually thrown at those kids. It's no wonder we are in this current climate within the US...these underperforming public school kids are now the "peaceful protest-rioters".

The underperforming public schools are due to underperforming parents. Period. You’re right that all the money in the world won’t fix that. But don’t bucket public schools as a problem. That’s as dangerous as bucketing all police as the problem.

[Lamont Sanford]

[QUOTE=Lamont Sanford;676835]

The underperforming public schools are due to underperforming parents. Period. You’re right that all the money in the world won’t fix that. But don’t bucket public schools as a problem. That’s as dangerous as bucketing all police as the problem.

Then let's defund the underperforming parents! That'll fix that problem. (sarcasm font used)

[noteggs]

Even the most radical of the Minneapolis Council isn't saying that there should be no police. Defunding is just code for reorganizing.

The real problem here is we really don’t know what defund the police really means. Sure it makes for a great #. Heck, even the president of the NAACP is not endorsing it because he doesn’t know what it substantively means and even got 3 different answers when he asked.

[STL_XUfan]

[QUOTE=Muskie in dayton;676839]

Then let's defund the underperforming parents! That'll fix that problem. (sarcasm font used)

Well clearly you are not a member of the Yang Gang.

[murray87]

Taking things to a different level in Seattle:

https://mynorthwest.com/1934076/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/

That all seems destined to end poorly.

[cutterX]

I don't care who it was, mental facilities need to be built, staffed, and filled. Better for all in the long run.

Agreed, I'm just pointing out the fact that elections have both good and bad consequences and sometimes aren't fully felt until years later.

[boozehound]

The real problem here is we really don’t know what defund the police really means. Sure it makes for a great #. Heck, even the president of the NAACP is not endorsing it because he doesn’t know what it substantively means and even got 3 different answers when he asked.

Right. It seems to be that it's an overly aggressive branding that has a high chance of having the opposite of the intended effect. I'm sure the folks on the far left love it, but even the more moderate Democrats are uncomfortable with 'defunding the police'. Because it sounds crazy and, IMHO, doesn't really capture the true spirit of reform.

[bobbiemcgee]

Mail-in voting looks pretty good after the Georgia and Nevada fiasco's.

[Juice]

Mail-in voting looks pretty good after the Georgia and Nevada fiasco's.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/fulton-county/fulton-county-under-investigation-after-repeated-complaints-voters-not-receiving-absentee-ballots/K6S7SN4PIRAUVANBTTNLRG4PFI/


ATLANTA — The state election board has launched an investigation into Fulton County after voters who requested absentee ballots by email never received them.

Voters told Channel 2 investigative reporter Justin Gray that there is no sign on their My Voter pages on the state’s website of those requests ever being processed.

That means, those voters will have to go in person to polling sites, something election leaders have been urging us all to avoid.

Southwest Atlanta resident Imara Canady and his mother never got their absentee ballots.

“You sent your and your mother’s in by email and heard nothing?” Gray asked Canady.

“Neither have come back,” Canady said.

Neither did Grant Park resident Daniel Caplin’s.

“It was the 6th of May I submitted over email my absentee ballot,” Caplin said.

Channel 2 Action News has received calls and emails from Fulton County voters who submitted their absentee ballot request by email and when they check their My Voter page on the secretary of state’s website, it shows no trace of it.

“When I go to the My Voter page, it’s difficult to figure out, that there’s just a grayed out thing to get my status,” Caplin said.

State and local election leaders have been urging Georgians to vote absentee by mail to prevent the spread of COVID-19 and avoid long lines that COVID-19 precautions are likely to cause.

Now the Secretary of State's Office is blasting Fulton County for the missing ballots.

Georgia's election director sent Gray a statement, saying:

“Fulton County has made unfortunate decisions that the state did not agree with. For example, they decided to process email applications last. Fulton County’s handling of the current election is under investigation by the State Election Board.”

Gray also contacted Fulton County about the issue. In a statement, they told him:

“While we have processed the almost every absentee ballot request, we have heard from some voters who submitted their absentee ballot request but have not yet received their ballot. Any voters who requested an absentee ballot but has not received it should immediately check the Georgia My Voter Page to review the status. If it does not show that it has been mailed, that voter may choose to vote early through 7 p.m. today or tomorrow from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., vote on Election Day, or contact us immediately at contact us immediately at 404-612-7060 or elections.absentee@fultoncountyga.gov."

Canady worries the missing ballots will mean some Georgians won't be able to vote.

“People are trying to be a part of the process. People are trying to exercise their vote in this new normal and I just think the system has failed,” Canaday said.

When Gray told Fulton County he was reporting on this, he also mentioned he hadn't gotten his ballot yet either that he had requested by email.

Late this Thursday afternoon after we Gray them about this story, a manager finally responded to his emailed ballot from a month ago.

The absentee ballots have to be received by Election Day, so realistically it’s too late for people whose requests weren’t processed to vote absentee.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/fulton-county-fixing-backlog-000-absentee-ballot-applications/IOEQxJb7HZclRx0pwX9cKM/


Fulton County elections officials have been scrambling to eliminate a backlog of 25,000 absentee ballot applications by Memorial Day.


The backlog, which was caused by overloaded computer servers, comes as Georgia officials change how elections are run to keep voters and poll workers safe from COVID-19.Even before early voting began on Monday, the backlog created long lines outside some Fulton polling places. So on Tuesday, the county decided to open precinct two hours earlier just to manage the lines.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt--politics/new-machines-same-pain-for-fulton-county-voters/qAalOXpyIypVztR8RBEOwI/



If there’s an easy way to deploy brand new voting equipment amid a pandemic, Fulton hasn’t found it. Other counties had problems on Tuesday, but none as bad as what was reported in Fulton — home to 10 percent of all Georgians.
MORE | Voting machines and coronavirus force long lines on Georgia voters
Georgia’s most populated county is now the subject of at least three investigations into its shoddy elections management.

“Everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong,” Fulton Commission Chairman Robb Pitts said standing by a snaking line of anxious voters outside an impromptu precinct at Park Tavern. He said the county might need younger poll workers who can better handle technology.


This is nothing new. Fulton has a history of late returns along with complaints, fines and ethics violations.


Following the discovery of a backlog of voter registrations in Fulton 2012, and precincts running out of provisional ballots, a secretary of state running his first presidential election said: “Given the constant and systemic nature of election failures in Fulton County, I think that every option for remediation of Fulton County elections should be on the table moving forward.”

What political party runs Fulton County?

[bobbiemcgee]

The Georgia secretary of state owns this disaster - he's the chief elections officer for crissakes.
There were over 20 counties affected, Fulton being just one of them.
I'm just wondering if you would stand in line for 7-8 hours to cast a primary ballot without cursing the asswipe who bought the machines and was supposed to train the workers (instead of blaming them). Reminds me of the drill sergeant who marched his soldiers into quicksand.
I voted today in the Colorado primary today. Took me exactly 93 seconds.

[boozehound]

The right to vote is potentially our most important institution. We need to make sure every eligible voter can easily cast their vote.

[Muskie in dayton]

The right to vote is potentially our most important institution. We need to make sure every eligible voter can easily cast their vote.
Early voting, absentee voting, extended hours on Election Day. If someone can’t find away to cast a vote, they don’t want to vote.

[bleedXblue]

Early voting, absentee voting, extended hours on Election Day. If someone can’t find away to cast a vote, they don’t want to vote.

EXACTLY, stop making excuses for this ridiculous BS.

[GoMuskies]

Taking things to a different level in Seattle:

https://mynorthwest.com/1934076/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/

That all seems destined to end poorly.

I feel like the new one in Portland will be more authentic.

[Lloyd Braun]

Yang and Cuban have interesting discussions here (https://yangspeaks.com)

There are a lot of good ideas (and some unrealistic but fun ideas) and refreshing discussion here from reasonable individuals.

[XU 87]

Taking things to a different level in Seattle:

https://mynorthwest.com/1934076/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/

That all seems destined to end poorly.

And some of these lefties said things would be so much better without police protection:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-protests-armed-guards-local-businesses-extortion

Here's a new one:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/seattle-police-chief-violence-chaz?utm_source=theblaze-breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200612Trending-DaveChapelle&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Breaking%20News

[XU 87]

The Georgia secretary of state owns this disaster - he's the chief elections officer for crissakes.
There were over 20 counties affected, Fulton being just one of them.
I'm just wondering if you would stand in line for 7-8 hours to cast a primary ballot without cursing the asswipe who bought the machines and was supposed to train the workers (instead of blaming them). Reminds me of the drill sergeant who marched his soldiers into quicksand.
I voted today in the Colorado primary today. Took me exactly 93 seconds.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/chris-cuomo-georgia-voting-official?utm_source=theblaze-breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200611Trending-CuomoFactCheck&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Breaking%20News

[Juice]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/chris-cuomo-georgia-voting-official?utm_source=theblaze-breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200611Trending-CuomoFactCheck&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Breaking%20News

They tried these same claims a few years ago when Georgia had it's highest voter turnout ever in both overall and black voter totals.

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.wired.com/story/georgia-failure-how-not-to-run-election-pandemic/

[STL_XUfan]

Gorsuch writing the majority opinion in Bostock holding the Title VII applies to LGBT rights was a pleasant surprise this morning.

[Masterofreality]

Gorsuch writing the majority opinion in Bostock holding the Title VII applies to LGBT rights was a pleasant surprise this morning.

Why?

Because there is actually a fair Supreme Court with actual scholars who follow the Law as written in the Constitution, rather than partisan hacks selected for their bias?

Hmmmmmmm.

[Masterofreality]

https://www.wired.com/story/georgia-failure-how-not-to-run-election-pandemic/


And, as shown by '87's post, the Democrats who run, and have run Fulton County since the 1800's are to blame.

See, when does the "Conversation" turn to those local officials that are really in charge of this...and not the federal government, or "Drumpf"?
Democrats have run these cities for decades, and their police departments too, but there is never a blame put on them. The conversation just stops when it turns that way.

All politics are local, and the Liberal Democrats have failed miserably at them. But just keep electing the same entitled lefties expecting something to "Change". Right?

[X-man]

Why?

Because there is actually a fair Supreme Court with actual scholars who follow the Law as written in the Constitution, rather than partisan hacks selected for their bias?

Hmmmmmmm.

Does that make Kavanaugh, Alito, and Thomas "partisan hacks"?

[paulxu]

Does that make Kavanaugh, Alito, and Thomas "partisan hacks"?

If you read the dissenters, they think those guys are traitors.

[GoMuskies]

I was assured that Gorsuch was really bad. Dangerous, even. Something about a dissent and a trucking company. And assisted suicide. BAD! DANGEROUS!

[GoMuskies]

Of course it will be the Republicans who impeach Trump. Ask yourself this: who would Republicans...Pres. Trump or Pres. Pence? All they need is an excuse, and Trump provides them daily.

Looking back for some of the Gorsuch commentary and found this gem from Trump's second day in office. LOL

[Juice]

If you read the dissenters, they think those guys are traitors.

To textualism.

The results of the decision are a good thing. But Gorsuch expanding the meaning of sex far outside of what the Civil Rights Act intended is a problem.

Also, it's more likely for one of the "conservative" five to cross over to side with the "liberal" judges than the other way around. But somehow, the conservatives are the ideologues.

[STL_XUfan]

If you read the dissenters, they think those guys are traitors.

The Alito dissent was a fun read, took off the gloves and really went at Gorsuch. I didn't think I would ever see a Justice refer to another Justice as the captain of a pirate ship.

[XU 87]

The Alito dissent was a fun read, took off the gloves and really went at Gorsuch. I didn't think I would ever see a Justice refer to another Justice as the captain of a pirate ship.

The liberal justices always vote liberal. You can't say the same about the conservative justices.

[Masterofreality]

Does that make Kavanaugh, Alito, and Thomas "partisan hacks"?

Kavanaugh’s dissent was actually very tepid, if you would take the time to read it.
Reasonable people sometimes disagree and don’t call the other side Fascists or Nazis, like *some* do.

[X Factor]

Liberals seriously don't want any difference of opinion on anything. They will try to destroy you...

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2020/06/15/osu-coach-mike-gundy-gets-cancelled-and-the-reason-will-blow-your-mind/

[Juice]

Some employees of a Shake Shack in New York poisoned police officers with bleach in their milk shakes.


SHAKE SHACK
@shakeshack
We are horrified by the reports of police officers injured at our 200 Broadway Shack in Manhattan. We are working with the police in their investigation right now.

[GoMuskies]

Some employees of a Shake Shack in New York poisoned police officers with bleach in their milk shakes.

There are some exceptions to my general aversion to police brutality. I could look the other way for the people responsible for this.

[X-man]

Kavanaugh’s dissent was actually very tepid, if you would take the time to read it.
Reasonable people sometimes disagree and don’t call the other side Fascists or Nazis, like *some* do.

Or "captain of a pirate ship"?

[paulxu]

Some employees of a Shake Shack in New York poisoned police officers with bleach in their milk shakes.

or


The NYPD launched an investigation after the officers fell ill and determined early Tuesday morning that there was no criminality by employees, according to a tweet from NYPD Detective Chief Rodney Harrison.
Investigators believe a cleaning solution used to clean the milkshake machines wasn't fully cleared and may have gotten into the officers' drinks.

[JTG]

or
But no one else got sick ?

[paulxu]

But no one else got sick ?

That is a good question. Looks very suspicious. But, the police did investigate and so far came to the conclusion noted.

[Muskie in dayton]

Some employees of a Shake Shack in New York poisoned police officers with bleach in their milk shakes.
Maybe they were just trying to protect the men in blue from COVID-19.

[Masterofreality]

Or "captain of a pirate ship"?

Uh, Kavanaugh didn't write that. Alito did. And where was anyone called a "captain of a pirate ship"?
What Alito said was "The Courts opinion is like a Pirate Ship. It sails under a textualist flag, but what it actually represents is a theory of statutory interpretation that Justice Scalia excoriated--the theory that courts should "update" old statutes so that they better reflect the current values of society".

What Alito was getting at was that "sex" (gender) should have been defined as it had already been established as referring to gender in a 1964 decision, and there are now over 100 Federal Laws written and in effect for "sex" protection as defined by that 1964 decision. He was stating that the majority decision while portrayed as a decision based upon preexisting "text" it actually was an update of that "text" and that now, since this was an update, that there was a slippery slope where those 100 federal laws could be challenged, thereby creating chaos.

So where is the personal attack?

[X-man]

Uh, Kavanaugh didn't write that. Alito did. And where was anyone called a "captain of a pirate ship"?
What Alito said was "The Courts opinion is like a Pirate Ship. It sails under a textualist flag, but what it actually represents is a theory of statutory interpretation that Justice Scalia excoriated--the theory that courts should "update" old statutes so that they better reflect the current values of society".

What Alito was getting at was that "sex" (gender) should have been defined as it had already been established as referring to gender in a 1964 decision, and there are now over 100 Federal Laws written and in effect for "sex" protection as defined by that 1964 decision. He was stating that the majority decision while portrayed as a decision based upon preexisting "text" it actually was an update of that "text" and that now, since this was an update, that there was a slippery slope where those 100 federal laws could be challenged, thereby creating chaos.

So where is the personal attack?
Uh, did I say Kavanaugh was the source of the "pirate" analogy?

[Juice]

Two weeks ago the Atlanta DA stated that a taser is a deadly weapon under Georgia law.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1273379778423189505?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1273379778423189505&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftownhall.com%2Ftipsheet%2Fbr onsonstocking%2F2020%2F06%2F17%2Fda-in-brooks-shooting-used-to-think-tasers-were-deadly-weapons-n2570858

This dude ruined his own case against that officer he overcharged.

[xu82]

Two weeks ago the Atlanta DA stated that a taser is a deadly weapon under Georgia law.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1273379778423189505?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1273379778423189505&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftownhall.com%2Ftipsheet%2Fbr onsonstocking%2F2020%2F06%2F17%2Fda-in-brooks-shooting-used-to-think-tasers-were-deadly-weapons-n2570858

This dude ruined his own case against that officer he overcharged.

That is a problem. You can’t have it both ways. If it’s a deadly weapon on the two college kids (out after curfew), it’s a deadly weapon when a guy passed out behind the wheel in a Wendy’s drive thru wrestles it from the cops and shoots it at them.

Regardless, you cannot shoot a person running away in the back. You know who he is, you have his car, he has already blown for the DUI, he’s fought the cops on video, he’s running away. The ONLY way you can lose this is............to shoot him in the back.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not sure the officer should have pulled the trigger, but I'm positive the charges are trumped up political bullshit. The Wendy's already got the death penalty in this case.

[Juice]

I'm not sure the officer should have pulled the trigger, but I'm positive the charges are trumped up political bullshit. The Wendy's already got the death penalty in this case.

Investigation wasn’t even finished. Plus the DA is under fire for embezzlement and sexual harassment with an election coming. He doesn’t give two shits about this case and if it’s handled the right way. He simply wants to make sure he keeps his job, which he probably doesn’t deserve.

[STL_XUfan]

And today the Court rules 5-4 that the Trump Administrations decision to rescind DACA was arbitrary and capricious. Roberts writing the opinion with the 4 liberals joining for most of it (then some weird splits on other issues I haven't got a chance to break down yet).

[X-man]

I'm not sure the officer should have pulled the trigger, but I'm positive the charges are trumped up political bullshit. The Wendy's already got the death penalty in this case.

You're not sure about that?? Did you go to Xavier?

[GoMuskies]

You're not sure about that?? Did you go to Xavier?

No. Yes.

[Lamont Sanford]

investigation wasn’t even finished. Plus the da is under fire for embezzlement and sexual harassment with an election coming. He doesn’t give two shits about this case and if it’s handled the right way. He simply wants to make sure he keeps his job, which he probably doesn’t deserve.

b-i-n-g-o!

[bjf123]

And today the Court rules 5-4 that the Trump Administrations decision to rescind DACA was arbitrary and capricious. Roberts writing the opinion with the 4 liberals joining for most of it (then some weird splits on other issues I haven't got a chance to break down yet).

Wasn’t DACA was put into place by Executive Order? My issue is that a President should be able to rescind a previous President’s Executive Order for any reason, or no reason. Otherwise, doesn’t the President take over law making from Congress? He, or she, could write any law they’d like and it would be incontestable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bjf123]

That is a problem. You can’t have it both ways. If it’s a deadly weapon on the two college kids (out after curfew), it’s a deadly weapon when a guy passed out behind the wheel in a Wendy’s drive thru wrestles it from the cops and shoots it at them.

Regardless, you cannot shoot a person running away in the back. You know who he is, you have his car, he has already blown for the DUI, he’s fought the cops on video, he’s running away. The ONLY way you can lose this is............to shoot him in the back.

I have not watched the video enough to know this, but is it possible that the officer started to draw and fire his weapon while Brooks was facing him and firing the Taser? That’s different than if he had fired the Taser and turned and taken a few steps at which time the officer then drew and fired.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[XUOWNSUC]

Interesting article (from last September) about the Supreme Court and how often they vote along party lines:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/09/10/liberal-supreme-court-justices-vote-in-lockstep-not-the-conservative-justices-column/2028450001/

The democrats like to complain about a conservative court that always votes along party lines - but that simply isn't the case. Democrats need to look in the mirror.

[STL_XUfan]

Wasn’t DACA was put into place by Executive Order? My issue is that a President should be able to rescind a previous President’s Executive Order for any reason, or no reason. Otherwise, doesn’t the President take over law making from Congress? He, or she, could write any law they’d like and it would be incontestable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree that our current system of ruling by executive order is scary. Congress (both Dems and Repubs) really only likes to take show votes. When they have actual power to do something they get scared back off. There was something like 63 votes between 2013 -2016 to repeal the ACA when Republicans knew the issues was going to be DOA, but once they actually had power, they couldn't get it done. I am sure the same thing will happen to the democrats if they win the House, Senate, and White House for items like the Green New Deal. So we are instead left a terrible system where one branch is doing most of the legislating.

I think the Trump administration's issue is that do not have anyone that actually wants to do work. The hamfisted way the travel ban and this repeal of DACA were rolled out led to all of these issues. I think if the administration had anyone competent running these efforts they would have been upheld. So at the end of the day I am happy they keep suffering these self inflicted wounds, but this is no way to govern in the long term.

[paulxu]

Roberts left it open to be rescinded if done in the correct manner. So it'll probably be back again.


“We do not decide whether DACA or its rescission are sound policies,” Roberts writes in the opinion. “‘The wisdom’ of those decisions ‘is none of our concern.’ ... We address only whether the agency complied with the procedural requirement that it provide a reasoned explanation for its action. ... That dual failure raises doubts about whether the agency appreciated the scope of its discretion or exercised that discretion in a reasonable manner.”

[Smails]

You're not sure about that?? Did you go to Xavier?

How are you 100% sure the officer was not justified in pulling the trigger?

What if the perp were to hit the officer with the taser (that he had pointed at him) rendering the officer incapacitated..from there he could have got the officer's service weapon and started a gunfight with his partner. Is that scenario possible? What if the officer were to be hit with the taser and fall to the ground and crack his skull? How about this one: The DA has designated a taser as a deadly weapon in an earlier case. So are officers supposed to let a perp run through the streets with a deadly weapon? Is it not their duty to neutralize that type of threat? I don't see how this is so cut and dry. I think this one needs to play out via an investigation, Do you not?

[X-man]

How are you 100% sure the officer was not justified in pulling the trigger?

What if the perp were to hit the officer with the taser (that he had pointed at him) rendering the officer incapacitated..from there he could have got the officer's service weapon and started a gunfight with his partner. Is that scenario possible? What if the officer were to be hit with the taser and fall to the ground and crack his skull? How about this one: The DA has designated a taser as a deadly weapon in an earlier case. So are officers supposed to let a perp run through the streets with a deadly weapon? Is it not their duty to neutralize that type of threat? I don't see how this is so cut and dry. I think this one needs to play out via an investigation, Do you not?

Because of this...the guy was running away, he was intoxicated, and he fired the taser wildly backwards as he kept running. It was a total and unnecessary shitshow.

[Xville]

Because of this...the guy was running away, he was intoxicated, and he fired the taser wildly backwards as he kept running. It was a total and unnecessary shitshow.

Yeah it really was. The suspect could have just not been drunk, not resisted, and not taken a taser from the officer. Shit show indeed.

[X-man]

Yeah it really was. The suspect could have just not been drunk, not resisted, and not taken a taser from the officer. Shit show indeed.

However stupid the guy's behavior, that in no way rationalizes a policeman taking this man's life.

[Smails]

and he fired the taser wildly backwards as he kept running.

Fired the taser wildly? What does that have to do with anything? He fired a weapon at a police officer after assaulting him. What was the officer supposed to do in that situation? The guy basically overpowered 2 police officers, so he certainly wasn't too drunk to be a threat. He was on probation for family battery and felony cruelty to children and they were just supposed to let him run away with a weapon??

[Smails]

However stupid the guy's behavior, that in no way rationalizes a policeman taking this man's life.

NO. Dropping your pants in a bar is stupid behavior. Assaulting 2 cops is and firing a weapon at them is sooo much more than stupid. It makes you a threat to the public

[XU 87]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/syracuse-student-journalist-fired-institutional-racism-myth

Just one more example of intolerant liberals who try to shut down and/or destroy anyone who disagrees with them.

[Xville]

However stupid the guy's behavior, that in no way rationalizes a policeman taking this man's life.

You call it stupid, I call it resisting arrest, threatening an officer, taking a deadly weapon by law and being a threat to the public. And of course this guy is being painted by the media as a productive member of society and a "hard worker" with little mention of his long rap sheet including his charges that were committed against his own kids.

[bobbiemcgee]

Roberts left it open to be rescinded if done in the correct manner. So it'll probably be back again.

Another executive order?, another lawsuit filed. Good luck with that. And, of course, the small matter of an election in 4 1/2 months.

[bobbiemcgee]

6 members of trump's team tested positive already.

[GoMuskies]

Doing their part for herd immunity.

Tulsa is a bit over a two hour drive for me. I really considered going down there to witness the madness...from a safe distance. It could be one for the history books given all that's going on.

[paulxu]

You should have gone. I think the outside speech for the overflow crowd was cancelled (no overflow crowd?)

Inside the stadium the upper decks seem pretty deserted so far. You could have gone in AND socially distanced.

[bobbiemcgee]

You should have gone. I think the outside speech for the overflow crowd was cancelled (no overflow crowd?)

Inside the stadium the upper decks seem pretty deserted so far. You could have gone in AND socially distanced.

Think he was about 990,000 short.

[Muskie in dayton]

Think he was about 990,000 short.
Do you think he’ll get the clue that his rock star card was revoked? Me either.

[STL_XUfan]

Some employees of a Shake Shack in New York poisoned police officers with bleach in their milk shakes.

The actual story is kinda bat shit when you see how you get from "point A" to they are poisoning cops: https://nypost.com/2020/06/22/how-nypd-faked-shake-shack-controversy-and-conspiracy-theory/

[Juice]

The actual story is kinda bat shit when you see how you get from "point A" to they are poisoning cops: https://nypost.com/2020/06/22/how-nypd-faked-shake-shack-controversy-and-conspiracy-theory/

Yup. I jumped out on it too quickly. Once I saw the Shake Shack tweet, it seemed to me like there was something there.

[Masterofreality]

You call it stupid, I call it resisting arrest, threatening an officer, taking a deadly weapon by law and being a threat to the public. And of course this guy is being painted by the media as a productive member of society and a "hard worker" with little mention of his long rap sheet including his charges that were committed against his own kids.

Brooks was on probation. The encounter went from "cooperative" to "combative" when Brooks was told he was being arrested. That triggered him to try to fight and run because the arrest sends him back to prison. Oh, and yeah, just for good measure, let's steal an officers taser and fire it back at him, ostensibly to disable.

Ya know. If you are already on probation, how about not drinking, then getting in a car to pass out in a Wendy's drive through line? Maybe you'd still be alive?

As to the DA. Maybe following usual procedure and putting the case in front of a Grand Jury might be the peoper course of action here? But Democrats seem to always want to take shortcuts to divert attention away from their own local failures just to spin a narrative to protect their own hides- like in Minneapolis, Baltimore, Seattle, New York, etc.

Amazing that the cities with the biggest problems in all of this have been controlled by Democrats for decades. The "Conversation regarding "Change"" always seems to end before it gets there though.

[xuphan]

2020 has been the longest year in my recent memory and we still have a presidential election to get through.

[94GRAD]

2020 has been the longest year in my recent memory and we still have a presidential election to get through.

It's the longest since the last leap year.

[GoMuskies]

Can we please view this Bubba Wallace case as instructive of what the world has become? Holy fuck, what a joke.

[X Factor]

Can we please view this Bubba Wallace case as instructive of what the world has become? Holy fuck, what a joke.

Exactly. I support law enforcement investigating crimes, but Bubba Wallace, Nascar, and the media went into hyperdrive over this before anything was really known. They love to keep people's emotions high...basicallly stoking the fire.

I read this earlier today, and now the FBI just announced there was nothing to this.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/22/is-bubba-wallace-rope-noose-a-hoax-or-misunderstanding-all-talladega-garage-doors-have-nooses-nascar-video-evidence/

[bobbiemcgee]

noosegate…..geez

[X Factor]

Michael Flynn is a free man...appeals court orders dismissal of Flynn prosecution. He deserves it.

https://apnews.com/5b267c653a3adaa0c9235059385e35e3

[GoMuskies]

Christi Mack is stirring up trouble for her husband with what she's sharing on Facebook. John Calipari's daughter was happy to jump in and fan the flames, too.

https://twitter.com/JenkCard99/status/1275810367088799745?s=20

[Masterofreality]

noosegate…..geez

Yeah, and even after the FBI announced that there was zero culpability, that the "noose" was merely part of a garage door pull down rope that had been that way since last October, Wallace goes on CNN last night with joke-of-a-newsman Don Lemon and still says that it was a "noose" and that his people were going to do their own investigation...which was immediately replayed on ABC's Good Morning America this morning.
Talk about fanning the flames of escalation and hatred over nothing? There you have it Libs.

[Muskie in dayton]

Christi Mack is stirring up trouble for her husband with what she's sharing on Facebook. John Calipari's daughter was happy to jump in and fan the flames, too.

https://twitter.com/JenkCard99/status/1275810367088799745?s=20

Maybe Mack has his eye on the Gonzaga job?

[bjf123]

Christi Mack is stirring up trouble for her husband with what she's sharing on Facebook. John Calipari's daughter was happy to jump in and fan the flames, too.

https://twitter.com/JenkCard99/status/1275810367088799745?s=20

Whoever the Kristen person is that wrote the post Christi shared does a pretty good job of summing up what’s going on right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xville]

Whoever the Kristen person is that wrote the post Christi shared does a pretty good job of summing up what’s going on right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep...some of the content I disagree with, but overall it is a very good representation of what our sensationalist media has done to the community at large over the last 3-4 months.

[Lloyd Braun]

Yeah, and even after the FBI announced that there was zero culpability, that the "noose" was merely part of a garage door pull down rope that had been that way since last October, Wallace goes on CNN last night with joke-of-a-newsman Don Lemon and still says that it was a "noose" and that his people were going to do their own investigation...which was immediately replayed on ABC's Good Morning America this morning.
Talk about fanning the flames of escalation and hatred over nothing? There you have it Libs.

Well, it WAS a noose... and it’s apparently the only noose in NASCAR, and an extremely unfortunate coincidence apparently.

This tweet (https://twitter.com/martysmithespn/status/1276194402302640129?s=21) has further info:
“NASCAR president Steve Phelps says NASCAR conducted a ‘thorough sweep of all 29 tracks where they race, and 1684 garage stalls, they found only 11 total ropes that had a pulldown rope tied in a knot, and just one noose: The one in Bubba Wallace garage.’”

My thought is that it was tied (by a racist?) last year and it was never taken out, as the vast majority of the time the door is closed and the noose isn’t visible.

[GoMuskies]

Is that kind of knot inherently racist? I guess it must be if the guy or gal who tied it in October is now racist by implication.

[bjf123]

Well, it WAS a noose... and it’s apparently the only noose in NASCAR, and an extremely unfortunate coincidence apparently.

This tweet (https://twitter.com/martysmithespn/status/1276194402302640129?s=21) has further info:
“NASCAR president Steve Phelps says NASCAR conducted a ‘thorough sweep of all 29 tracks where they race, and 1684 garage stalls, they found only 11 total ropes that had a pulldown rope tied in a knot, and just one noose: The one in Bubba Wallace garage.’”

My thought is that it was tied (by a racist?) last year and it was never taken out, as the vast majority of the time the door is closed and the noose isn’t visible.

Didn’t the FBI investigate and determine through photographic evidence that most of the garages had that same rope pull and that they had been in place since last fall?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

https://a4.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2020%2F0625%2Fr712531_4_1296x518_ 5%2D2.jpg&w=1320&h=528&scale=crop&cquality=40&location=center&format=jpg

[Lloyd Braun]

Is that kind of knot inherently racist? I guess it must be if the guy or gal who tied it in October is now racist by implication.

I don’t know that’s why I used a “?” but I think it would be difficult to present an argument otherwise. In what capacity would you tie a noose for a purpose other than to hang a person?

[Lloyd Braun]

Didn’t the FBI investigate and determine through photographic evidence that most of the garages had that same rope pull and that they had been in place since last fall?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, just that garage. Since it was in place last fall and he was assigned to that garage due to NASCAR standings it was not directed toward Wallace specifically. Case closed as far as the FBI is concerned.

[Juice]

No, just that garage. Since it was in place last fall and he was assigned to that garage due to NASCAR standings it was not directed toward Wallace specifically. Case closed as far as the FBI is concerned.

If we have any nascar fans here, could you please help me a bit here. The “noose” was found between Sunday’s rain out and Monday’s race right? When are the cars assigned to a garage? How far in advance would his crew be working there? If it’s just Sunday to Monday I can maybe understand the immediate alarm. But my assumption is that there were there for a few days, and they only reported seeing it that late? It doesn’t add up to me. But again, I could be making some incorrect assumptions.

[Lloyd Braun]

If we have any nascar fans here, could you please help me a bit here. The “noose” was found between Sunday’s rain out and Monday’s race right? When are the cars assigned to a garage? How far in advance would his crew be working there? If it’s just Sunday to Monday I can maybe understand the immediate alarm. But my assumption is that there were there for a few days, and they only reported seeing it that late? It doesn’t add up to me. But again, I could be making some incorrect assumptions.

It’s ok, you don’t have to call it a “noose” because it’s actually a noose. There is no way around it by definition. The crews got to the garage Sunday morning and noticed the noose in the afternoon. The crew chief who noticed is African American and searched all other garage doors to see if any other garages had nooses. The garage assignments are done the week before based on points standings, but they are grouped by racing teams instead of individually now due to COVID, which doesn’t mean a whole lot, but without the team groupings he would be in garage 20 instead of 4.

Again, I don’t think it’s reasonable to believe he was targeted personally, but a noose is a noose and I feel is a racist symbol used for intimidation that shouldn’t be hanging anywhere.

Edit: here’s a written (https://www.al.com/motorsports/2020/06/timeline-of-how-bubba-wallace-noose-was-found-and-reported.html) version of the timeline I have heard

[bjf123]

Interesting article from before the 2016 election I think it still fits. The surprising part is it’s from a rather liberal site.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xuphan]

If we have any nascar fans here, could you please help me a bit here. The “noose” was found between Sunday’s rain out and Monday’s race right? When are the cars assigned to a garage? How far in advance would his crew be working there? If it’s just Sunday to Monday I can maybe understand the immediate alarm. But my assumption is that there were there for a few days, and they only reported seeing it that late? It doesn’t add up to me. But again, I could be making some incorrect assumptions.

The crew doesn’t have as much time in the garage as they use to due to COVID-19 restrictions. IMO, I am sure someone on the team noticed it and didn’t think anything of it and another member of the team noticed it and saw it as an attack on the driver. There was a picture of the noose looking rope from the previous race at Talladega. So it has been there for awhile now. Just a coincidence that Bubba was given that garage for the race.

[Muskie in dayton]

Interesting article from before the 2016 election I think it still fits. The surprising part is it’s from a rather liberal site.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It fits even better unfortunately. I was just talking with a friend the other day about how different "liberal" is today vs. when we were growing up (late '80s/early '90s). Then the liberal was the one open to new ideas, willing to accept different opinions, and generally wanting to everyone to just get along. We both identified as liberal then. Now the liberal has become the one intolerant of other ideas, degrading those who believe differently, and acting very self-righteously. I still hold the same core values as I did then, so I don't think I've changed. I do know that the ideals of the 2020 liberal are increasingly disgusting.

[Masterofreality]

Interesting article from before the 2016 election I think it still fits. The surprising part is it’s from a rather liberal site.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism



That is an incredible article, and from Vox, which I rarely can stand to read, but he nailed it...in April....2016.

Quote: "The smug style, at bottom, is a failure of empathy. Further: It is a failure to believe that empathy has any value at all. It is the notion that anybody worthy of liberal time and attention and respect must capitulate, immediately, to the Good Facts.

If they don't (and they won't) you're free to write them off and mock them. When they suffer, it's their just desserts."

A couple of months after that Hillary Clinton called Trump supporters "Deplorables". Right. On. Cue.

And you know what? Dems have still not learned the lesson. Identity Politics, works great in their NY and LA cocktail confabs, but not in "Flyover Country". And they'll lose again in November, even with all their media elite cronies.

[Juice]

It’s ok, you don’t have to call it a “noose” because it’s actually a noose. There is no way around it by definition. The crews got to the garage Sunday morning and noticed the noose in the afternoon. The crew chief who noticed is African American and searched all other garage doors to see if any other garages had nooses. The garage assignments are done the week before based on points standings, but they are grouped by racing teams instead of individually now due to COVID, which doesn’t mean a whole lot, but without the team groupings he would be in garage 20 instead of 4.

Again, I don’t think it’s reasonable to believe he was targeted personally, but a noose is a noose and I feel is a racist symbol used for intimidation that shouldn’t be hanging anywhere.

Edit: here’s a written (https://www.al.com/motorsports/2020/06/timeline-of-how-bubba-wallace-noose-was-found-and-reported.html) version of the timeline I have heard

I just find it hard to believe it had been there for months but it wasn't reported until Sunday, that's all.

Also, I kind of don't believe Nascar. Why did they release that photo days after the initial report?

[Lamont Sanford]

No, just that garage. Since it was in place last fall and he was assigned to that garage due to NASCAR standings it was not directed toward Wallace specifically. Case closed as far as the FBI is concerned.

Very surprising considering how openly corrupt the FBI has been in recent years. Surprised they didn't blame it on Trump and Russia too.

[paulxu]

1,684 garages searched at every NASCAR track.
1 garage with a noose.

That guy needs to buy some lottery tickets.

[xavierj]

1,684 garages searched at every NASCAR track.
1 garage with a noose.

That guy needs to buy some lottery tickets.

Or something else came of the investigation and they didn’t want to let that out if you know what I mean...they have cameras protecting all of that expensive equipment. If someone truly put that out as hateful intent no reason to backtrack when you already put it out there and got people all worked up.

[X Factor]

https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/1277177624884850689

I've noticed BLM uses the term comrade a lot in their tweets and on their website.

One of the definitions of comrade: a fellow socialist or communist (often as a form of address).

And another crazy story you really can't make up...but in today's world is par for the course...

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/26/delingpole-in-what-kind-of-crazy-world-do-you-get-promoted-after-saying-white-lives-dont-matter/

[X Factor]

Bill Maher actually makes some really good points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=292&v=Yv0P1-gpEFc&feature=emb_title

[Muskie in dayton]

They don't have the freedom to shutdown highways and disrupt other people's lives. Yep, just freedom of assembly...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeYm6YFrKh8
Great find. Thanks for sharing - that sums up how I feel exactly. Public reps since the rep socialists are making me redistribute the wealth.

[GoMuskies]

This would be amazing if true. Someone get Romney on speed dial!

https://twitter.com/CGasparino/status/1277280827462868994?s=20

[bobbiemcgee]

Honestly, I think trump is trying to just lose the election now and go back to Fla:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/28/politics/trump-tweet-supporters-man-chants-white-power/index.html

[X Factor]

This would be amazing if true. Someone get Romney on speed dial!

https://twitter.com/CGasparino/status/1277280827462868994?s=20

Romney? Hahahahahaha...that dude is an empty suit. He thinks the press likes him...he would crumble once they got a hold of him like they would any republican.

[Muskie in dayton]

Romney? Hahahahahaha...that dude is an empty suit. He thinks the press likes him...he would crumble once they got a hold of him like they would any republican.
He would beat Biden. Trump won’t.

[paulxu]

I know Trump lies a lot. It seems second nature.

But if they prove he really was briefed about the Russian bounty on our troops, his lying about it (if he is) will be something he won't be able to brush off; and not doing anything about it will make it seem Putin does have something on him.

(Of course I've said that about a lot of stuff he's lied about. I'm apparently a slow learner.)

[X Factor]

He would beat Biden. Trump won’t.

Absolutely false.

[Juice]

He would beat Biden. Trump won’t.

Romney would get smooooooked. He stands for nothing. You may not like Trump but his base likes him. Everyone hates Romney, even Republicans.

[xu82]

Romney would get smooooooked. He stands for nothing. You may not like Trump but his base likes him. Everyone hates Romney, even Republicans.

I don’t hate Romney. Of the three, he’d be my preference. But thanks for speaking for me.

Biden may win......... if he just shuts up and lets Trump be Trump.

[Muskie in dayton]

Romney would get smooooooked. He stands for nothing. You may not like Trump but his base likes him. Everyone hates Romney, even Republicans.
Trump stands for being an asshole, and Biden doesn’t know what he stands for. I will not vote for either, but I will vote for Romney.

[Muskie in dayton]

Absolutely false.
Based on....

[ThrowDownDBrown]

It fits even better unfortunately. I was just talking with a friend the other day about how different "liberal" is today vs. when we were growing up (late '80s/early '90s). Then the liberal was the one open to new ideas, willing to accept different opinions, and generally wanting to everyone to just get along. We both identified as liberal then. Now the liberal has become the one intolerant of other ideas, degrading those who believe differently, and acting very self-righteously. I still hold the same core values as I did then, so I don't think I've changed. I do know that the ideals of the 2020 liberal are increasingly disgusting.

I think it’s a bit more disgusting that the leader of the Republican Party is a racist and sexist.

[X Factor]

As they entered the store, the mob responded to a protest leader with a megaphone, repeatedly chanting:

“All black people, living around this neighborhood, living around in this neighborhood, because you prioritize money over people, so until you stop calling the police, we continue to shut your business down.”

https://www.redstate.com/mike_miller/2020/06/28/blm-mob-threatens-to-%e2%80%98shut-down%e2%80%99-target-store-%e2%80%98stop-calling-the-police%e2%80%99-on-%e2%80%98black-people%e2%80%99/

https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1277040059099820035

[X Factor]

I think it’s a bit more disgusting that the leader of the Republican Party is a racist and sexist.

Just keep throwing "racist", "sexist", "xenophobic" out there and hopefully people will start to believe you.

https://www.delgazette.com/opinion/80155/trump-helping-black-communities-thrive


That’s why the president was so committed to reforming the criminal justice system. By eliminating the sentencing disparities caused by the horrendous Clinton-era crime bill, which disproportionately affected African Americans, President Trump is giving thousands of unfairly sentenced black inmates a second chance at the American Dream.

The FIRST STEP Act also included significant reforms to address recidivism, such as helping prisons improve their rehabilitation programs and allowing non-violent inmates to earn early-release credits for good behavior more easily. Thanks to this legislation, non-violent inmates will now be equipped with the professional and social skills they need to become productive members of society following their release.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-freed-alice-johnson-in-2018-this-week-he-granted-clemency-to-three-of-her-friends/2020/02/19/1ea710be-5327-11ea-87b2-101dc5477dd7_story.html

Evil racist Trump granted Alice Johnson, a Black woman serving a life sentence for non-violent drug offenses, clemency along with three other women.

[Muskie in dayton]

I think it’s a bit more disgusting that the leader of the Republican Party is a racist and sexist.
I find both parties and their representatives equally disgusting. So join me and don’t vote for either.