Politics Thread

[X-man]

Way to call the Americans people stupid. Trump won because Hillary was a garbage candidate, who somehow screwed up a huge advantage with a fawning media. Period.

A majority of Republican voters apparently are. Link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-persistent-partisan-divide-over-birther-question-n627446

[Juice]

61,000 people died from the flu last year
29,000 people have died from the flu this year

12,000 people died in the US from the swine flu in 2009.

[Masterofreality]

A majority of Republican voters apparently are. Link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-persistent-partisan-divide-over-birther-question-n627446

Finding a story from partisan NBC that is almost 4 years old. Try again.
Had zero to do with Trump being elected.

[X-man]

Finding a story from partisan NBC that is almost 4 years old. Try again.
Had zero to do with Trump being elected.

Source? On what basis do you make this claim? And nice touch, dismissing any story that doesn't fit your own personal narrative...without evidence. Kind of the way your hero in the WH does.

Why does the date of the survey, shortly before the 2016 election and therefore making it very relevant to whether such a fake narrative pushed by Trump impacted his election, negate its relevance? But if the date worries you, here's a more recent source (of the many sources out there, I might add): https://www.salon.com/2017/12/11/the-birther-blemish-republicans-still-think-barack-obama-was-born-in-kenya/

[paulxu]

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Joesph Goebbels

[Masterofreality]

Source? On what basis do you make this claim? And nice touch, dismissing any story that doesn't fit your own personal narrative...without evidence. Kind of the way your hero in the WH does.

Why does the date of the survey, shortly before the 2016 election and therefore making it very relevant to whether such a fake narrative pushed by Trump impacted his election, negate its relevance? But if the date worries you, here's a more recent source (of the many sources out there, I might add): https://www.salon.com/2017/12/11/the-birther-blemish-republicans-still-think-barack-obama-was-born-in-kenya/

Nobody gave an iish about that.
And Salon is about as left as you can get other than Vox or Huffington.
Hilary sucked and lost. Move on.

[Lloyd Braun]

Nobody gave an iish about that.
And Salon is about as left as you can get other than Vox or Huffington.
Hilary sucked and lost. Move on.

Question: do you consider yourself a fiscal conservative? I would guess not but maybe I’m wrong.

[X-man]

Nobody gave an iish about that.
And Salon is about as left as you can get other than Vox or Huffington.
Hilary sucked and lost. Move on.

I'm not arguing that Hillary was a good (or bad) candidate although I agree that she ran a miserable campaign. What I am arguing is that your claim that Trump's birther lies played a role to the extent that people actually believed his "alternative facts". So far, your entire defense is that the sources reporting the polling (are the polling firms also part of the "deep state" in your delusions?) are left wing media, and therefore whatever they report must be untrue. Your position is BS, and you know it.

[Masterofreality]

I'm not arguing that Hillary was a good (or bad) candidate although I agree that she ran a miserable campaign. What I am arguing is that your claim that Trump's birther lies played a role to the extent that people actually believed his "alternative facts". So far, your entire defense is that the sources reporting the polling (are the polling firms also part of the "deep state" in your delusions?) are left wing media, and therefore whatever they report must be untrue. Your position is BS, and you know it.

Dude, I never claimed a thing about “Birther”. Someone (You?) Claimed that this Birther thing had a major effect on the election and I said it did not. All I’ve said is that Hilary was a trash candidate and the American people saw that and did not elect her. That’s all.
Check the thread

[Caf]

Oil opened down 30%. A barrel is now $30. This is more than coronavirus.

[scoscox]

Oil opened down 30%. A barrel is now $30. This is more than coronavirus.

ehhh it's mostly coronavirus

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/05/investing/opec-oil-prices-coronavirus/index.html

plus the fact that basically no one in any of these countries that are on lockdown are driving

[Lloyd Braun]

Dude, I never claimed a thing about “Birther”. Someone (You?) Claimed that this Birther thing had a major effect on the election and I said it did not. All I’ve said is that Hilary was a trash candidate and the American people saw that and did not elect her. That’s all.
Check the thread

Yes, let’s check the thread....
Oh, here it is.


It’s not far fetched to believe that without the ridiculous conspiracy theories of Obama’s birthplace, religion, etc. that Donald Trump may not be President today. Trump used that platform to catapult himself into the political spotlight.

There is nothing in here about the election. I simply said Trump burst onto the national political scene quite rapidly once he used this birther platform. Which is true. Nowhere did I say it won him an election. It seems to me that you, like many Republicans that are good people, need to validate voting for such an abhorrent individual that goes against core Catholic values. The only way to do that is continually focus on how bad Hillary is, so Trump could be lesser of two evils. Tell me I am wrong.

[Caf]

ehhh it's mostly coronavirus

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/05/investing/opec-oil-prices-coronavirus/index.html

plus the fact that basically no one in any of these countries that are on lockdown are driving

I think that's overstated considering China is supposedly past its peak and Italy is Italy, but could be air travel too. Seems like more of a pure economic war tactic from Saudi Arabia. Aramco's IPO timing certainly seems tactically timed.

Obviously this will be a disaster for US shale if its sustained. Hopefully the benefit of cheap oil to the broader economy is enough to offset it.

[GoMuskies]

US shale can withstand low oil prices much more readily than Saudi.

[scoscox]

I think that's overstated considering China is supposedly past its peak and Italy is Italy, but could be air travel too. Seems like more of a pure economic war tactic from Saudi Arabia. Aramco's IPO timing certainly seems tactically timed.

Obviously this will be a disaster for US shale if its sustained. Hopefully the benefit of cheap oil to the broader economy is enough to offset it.

who is saying China is "past its peak"? and i'm not sure what "italy is italy" means. china is totally shut down. that's a huge drop in demand. reduction in road and air travel is pretty significant. major events are also being cancelled all over the world. it's entirely possible OPEC is trying to hurt us out of malice, but there are definitely very reasonable alternative explanations at the moment

[scoscox]

Deleted

[Caf]

US shale can withstand low oil prices much more readily than Saudi.

America can withstand low oil prices more than Saudi Arabia but US shale firm's have breakevens in the upper $40 low $50 range. Some have already announced Capex cutbacks and it's been 12 hours.

[Caf]

who is saying China is "past its peak"? and i'm not sure what "italy is italy" means. china is totally shut down. that's a huge drop in demand. reduction in road and air travel is pretty significant. major events are also being cancelled all over the world. it's entirely possible OPEC is trying to hurt us out of malice, but there are definitely very reasonable alternative explanations at the moment

China does, which is why I said supposedly.

Italy's consumption is not a presence in the oil market about 1%.

I think coronavirus explains the decay in values we've seen up until last night which is significant. 30% over the weekend is not correlated to the virus but the OPEC+ meeting. There's a chicken or the egg debate to be had about why they would start a price war now.

[X-man]

Yes, let’s check the thread....
Oh, here it is.



There is nothing in here about the election. I simply said Trump burst onto the national political scene quite rapidly once he used this birther platform. Which is true. Nowhere did I say it won him an election. It seems to me that you, like many Republicans that are good people, need to validate voting for such an abhorrent individual that goes against core Catholic values. The only way to do that is continually focus on how bad Hillary is, so Trump could be lesser of two evils. Tell me I am wrong.

And then when MOR said that you were implying that Trump was elected by "stupid" people (presumably because you brought up the fake news birther platform that Trump endorsed), I responded with links reporting that polls of Republicans taken in late summer of 2016 (as well as in 2017) indeed showed that Republicans bought into the birther hoax. MOR's response to, as always, to throw shade accusing me (without evidence) of using biased news sites and putting words into his mouth. MOR, like so many of his like-minded brethren, appears to blame the deliverer of the news whenever he doesn't like the news rather than (say) actually evaluating reliability of the news itself. Not helpful for discussion.

[paulxu]

I think the S&P just hit (7%) the auto-suspend or 15 minutes mark.

[Masterofreality]

Yes, let’s check the thread....
Oh, here it is.



There is nothing in here about the election. I simply said Trump burst onto the national political scene quite rapidly once he used this birther platform. Which is true. Nowhere did I say it won him an election. It seems to me that you, like many Republicans that are good people, need to validate voting for such an abhorrent individual that goes against core Catholic values. The only way to do that is continually focus on how bad Hillary is, so Trump could be lesser of two evils. Tell me I am wrong.

Find me where I quoted something because you can’t. When you say “Trump would not be President, uh, that’s about an election, I believe. My response was that it had little effect if any because Hilary was a trash candidate who ran a garbage campaign.
Birther= Red Herring.

[nuts4xu]

Do people really think Donald Trump is dangerous to this country? Or Coronavirus?

This country has endured much worse and survived and thrived. People seem to think everything said by our current president, Donald J Trump, will ignite the fuse to the end of the world.

I don't see it...

[Masterofreality]

Do Democratsreally think Donald Trump is dangerous to this country? Or Coronavirus?

This country has endured much worse and survived and thrived. People seem to think everything said by our current president, Donald J Trump, will ignite the fuse to the end of the world.

I don't see it...

Fixed that for you, and the answer is yes to this question, which is the wrong answer

[paulxu]

I did find this slightly amusing. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know who Nero was.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/03/09/trump-coronavirus-nero-qanon/

[X-man]

On my way to the game Saturday, I saw a political yard sign in Indian Hill, no less, that was pretty funny. It was red, white, and blue, and said "Functioning Adult: 2020".

[GoMuskies]

On my way to the game Saturday, I saw a political yard sign in Indian Hill, no less, that was pretty funny. It was red, white, and blue, and said "Functioning Adult: 2020".

Unfortunately, there are none left in the race.

[X-man]

Unfortunately, there are none left in the race.

I think Biden qualifies. The other two...not so much.

[GoMuskies]

I think Biden qualifies. The other two...not so much.

I think Biden in general is perfectly fine. Whether he is still "functioning"? That's where my concern lies.

His VP pick is going to be critical.

[bjf123]

I think Biden in general is perfectly fine. Whether he is still "functioning"? That's where my concern lies.

His VP pick is going to be critical.

It’s going to be Hillary and then Joe will commit suicide.


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[D-West & PO-Z]

It’s going to be Hillary and then Joe will commit suicide.


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This made me laugh out loud.

Reps.

[Masterofreality]

It’s going to be Hillary and then Joe will commit suicide.


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'Suicide" as in Jeffrey Epstein. :drool::lol::lmao::spaz:

[Caf]

Trump exploring federal aid for shale companies. If this isn't primarily targeted at workers I think it's a disastrous misstep.

[GoMuskies]

Goodnight Bernie.

[scoscox]

It's surreal that Biden is gonna be the nominee. the guy can't form complete sentences. it doesn't feel real

I think Trump has kinda fooled people into thinking his age isn't a big deal. trump has more energy than most 40 year olds seemingly but he is pretty old. biden is the same age and looks it.

[Lloyd Braun]

Both are too old and both have lost their minds. You can throw Bernie in that pot too....

[scoscox]

Both are too old and both have lost their minds. You can throw Bernie in that pot too....

Haven't really seen Bernie or Trump losing it mentally. they are still the same crazy they've always been. Bernie's heart attack wasn't encouraging though.

Biden is in serious decline though. The guy can't give a speech longer than 8 minutes and still can't get through that without major missteps. He can't remember Obama's name, what state he's in, or even who his wife is. i don't understand how people can shrug that stuff off. i honestly feel bad for him when i watch him speak

[Masterofreality]

Haven't really seen Bernie or Trump losing it mentally. they are still the same crazy they've always been. Bernie's heart attack wasn't encouraging though.

Biden is in serious decline though. The guy can't give a speech longer than 8 minutes and still can't get through that without major missteps. He can't remember Obama's name, what state he's in, or even who his wife is. i don't understand how people can shrug that stuff off. i honestly feel bad for him when i watch him speak

He’s gonna get destroyed on a debate stage. All the Dems have gone easy on him because it’s been well known for a while that he’d emerge as the nominee so he hasn’t really been tested. That will change with Trump. I’m sure the media will paper it over tho.

[bjf123]

I think the Democrats are hoping neither Bernie nor Biden get enough delegates before the convention to secure the nomination. That way, they can nominate whomever they wish after the first ballot. I’m thinking Hillary.


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[Muskie in dayton]

Both are too old and both have lost their minds. You can throw Bernie in that pot too....

They’re all in the dangerous age range for covid-19 too. Just sayin’.

[murray87]

It's surreal that Biden is gonna be the nominee. the guy can't form complete sentences. it doesn't feel real

I think Trump has kinda fooled people into thinking his age isn't a big deal. trump has more energy than most 40 year olds seemingly but he is pretty old. biden is the same age and looks it.

Trump is actually 73 and Biden is 77. But comparing the two, Trump may as well be 25.

[Caf]

No argument on Biden showing his age relative to Sanders and Trump. I think they'll sell it as 'he's human' and therefore trustworthy. A lot of people I know don't want the President and their drama, tweets, etc to be such a constant presence in their lives. We'll see if 'a return to normal' is enough to get people to the ballots.

In any case I'm greatly relieved to see Sanders fade away.

[X-man]

Trump is actually 73 and Biden is 77. But comparing the two, Trump may as well be 4.

Fixed that for you.

[X-man]

He’s gonna get destroyed on a debate stage. All the Dems have gone easy on him because it’s been well known for a while that he’d emerge as the nominee so he hasn’t really been tested. That will change with Trump. I’m sure the media will paper it over tho.

Yeah, I know. Trump is an amazing debater.

[scoscox]

No argument on Biden showing his age relative to Sanders and Trump. I think they'll sell it as 'he's human' and therefore trustworthy

not sure that's gonna work. he's human and dying. i can trust an old person who's losing their mind, but i'm not about to trust them with any responsibility.

we'll see. maybe you'll be right, but i think it could get very, very ugly, very quickly

[scoscox]

Yeah, I know. Trump is an amazing debater.

i know this is sarcastic, but trump is a good debater, atleast in the context of running for office in the current state of our country

[Smails]

i know this is sarcastic, but trump is a good debater, atleast in the context of running for office in the current state of our country

This. He would likely fail a college-level debate class, but in our current political climate he's pretty darn good. Hillary was one of the most seasoned political operators to run for office in a long time and he tore her to pieces in those settings. He did that without any kind of record to run on. He'll have 3+ years of pretty positive data on his side this time around. I think he'll push uncle joe to his breaking point...

[Lloyd Braun]

Revisionist history, again, from those that love the Trumpster.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/survey-says-trump-misleads-on-debate-performances/

[Xville]

Scientific polls lol. Kind of an oxymoron there.

[X-man]

Revisionist history, again, from those that love the Trumpster.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/survey-says-trump-misleads-on-debate-performances/

I was shocked to read that anyone thinks that Trump is a good debater, and that he "tore her (Hillary) to pieces". Must have been a different set of debates than the ones I saw. And I guess Xville must be one of those "alternative facts-science deniers" Trump supporters.

[Xville]

I was shocked to read that anyone thinks that Trump is a good debater, and that he "tore her (Hillary) to pieces". Must have been a different set of debates than the ones I saw. And I guess Xville must be one of those "alternative facts-science deniers" Trump supporters.

No I just think the phrase scientific poll is hilarious. Not really a trump supporter, not a hater either. The two we are going to have to choose from is yet again awful. Senile man number one or senile man number two. Great. I guess it's better than whackadoodle sanders

[Caf]

This. He would likely fail a college-level debate class, but in our current political climate he's pretty darn good. Hillary was one of the most seasoned political operators to run for office in a long time and he tore her to pieces in those settings. He did that without any kind of record to run on. He'll have 3+ years of pretty positive data on his side this time around. I think he'll push uncle joe to his breaking point...

I want to be clear I'm not blaming this on Trump, but that positive data is getting worse quickly. 2 weeks ago I was saying he was a lock for reelection. It's becoming more fluid. Lots of time, but these next few weeks and months will be vital.

[Lamont Sanford]

And I guess Xville must be one of those "alternative facts-science deniers" Trump supporters.

There you go again with the name calling. I thought you Libs were better than that?!?

[X-man]

No I just think the phrase scientific poll is hilarious. Not really a trump supporter, not a hater either. The two we are going to have to choose from is yet again awful. Senile man number one or senile man number two. Great. I guess it's better than whackadoodle sanders

Why? do you also believe that scientific sampling is also "hilarious"? Do you know that all the government data (e.g. the CPI, the unemployment rate, etc.) are based on "scientific sampling"? Does that mean that all of those numbers are also "hilarious"?

[Xville]

Why? do you also believe that scientific sampling is also "hilarious"? Do you know that all the government data (e.g. the CPI, the unemployment rate, etc.) are based on "scientific sampling"? Does that mean that all of those numbers are also "hilarious"?

No I think scientific polling is hilarious. I didnt say anything about the numbers themselves so you may want to stop jumping to conclusions.

[X-man]

No I think scientific polling is hilarious. I didnt say anything about the numbers themselves so you may want to stop jumping to conclusions.

So you believe the polling numbers, but just don't believe the methodology that produced them??? That makes no sense.

[Smails]

Revisionist history, again, from those that love the Trumpster.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/survey-says-trump-misleads-on-debate-performances/

That would certainly explain her landslide victory that the same polling bodies produced in the run up to the election. And for the record Lloyd, I don't love the Tumpster and I'm surprised someone as open minded as your self would jump to conclusions based on my debate opinion. For shame...be better.

[scoscox]

That would certainly explain her landslide victory that the same polling bodies produced in the run up to the election. And for the record Lloyd, I don't love the Tumpster and I'm surprised someone as open minded as your self would jump to conclusions based on my debate opinion. For shame...be better.

Yea, these are the same places that told us she was up 20% in the popular vote and had a 99% chance of winning. Hard to trust them, but it’s also beside the point. Trump crushed the republican primary completely. He destroyed all of them. The republican debates from 2016 are all time blowouts. He definitely fell off in the general against Hillary and was honestly much easier on her than he was on the Republicans.

[Lloyd Braun]

I would have to look it up but I recall the last national polls done prior to the election being fairly close to the popular vote nationally. The state polls (Electoral) are typically less accurate for many reasons, most notably being less sample size and more bias in those polling (less scientific). Most of polls in the article I linked however are well respected national polls that all campaigns use.
And Smails- I didn’t quote you directly just made a general statement, as there was recent “debate” (ha) on this in other platforms after Trump responded to the Fox News commentator who said Trump won in spite of poor debate performance.

[UCGRAD4X]

I agree science data gathering is important and useful as done correctly. Unfortunately so many are not. Questions asked in a way that will most likely confirm their premise. Sampling errors either over-sample certain population or consider who is most likely to reply to such a poll. Conflating correlation with causation and even faulty statistical analysis. I'm not, by any means, saying that most of them are questionable, maybe there are, but that is not the point. Enough of them are that people who do not have the time or understanding of potential polling biases, acceptable methodology, double blind, peer reviewing (although this is too often done by those who are in the same 'club' and may or may not have reasons other than strictly scientific for giving the thumbs up to certain research) etc. Who does?

I certainly think it is reasonable to be skeptical of conclusion. I taught my college students to always be skeptical and some things that make the information more or less reasonable and able to be replicated and applicable.

[GoMuskies]

Are we really going to hold political primaries tomorrow? Really?!?

[paulxu]

Are we really going to hold political primaries tomorrow? Really?!?

The lines will be longer if people keep the safe, clear distance.

[noteggs]

Prediction Bernie beats (or gets close) to Biden because young will do what they do - some show and some don’t while virus not a huge concern. On the other hand, Biden’s bread and butter turnout the elderly will decline dramatically.

[Masterofreality]

The lines will be longer if people keep the safe, clear distance.

Ohio, again leading the Nation with a practical Republican Governor, declares a postponement to in person voting to June 2.
This after Ohio was the first state to order closure of restaurants and bars to the public.
Well done Guvner!

[X-band '01]

Ohio, again leading the Nation with a practical Republican Governor, declares a postponement to in person voting to June 2.
This after Ohio was the first state to order closure of restaurants, bars, movie theaters, gyms and rec centers to the public.
Well done Guvner!

Fixed that to include today's closures.

[Mrs. Garrett]

Ohio, again leading the Nation with a practical Republican Governor, declares a postponement to in person voting to June 2.
This after Ohio was the first state to order closure of restaurants and bars to the public.
Well done Guvner!

Too bad there's not a practical republican in the White House.

[paulxu]

I'm not sure June 2nd will be any better. If we're on the Italy curve it won't be.

[bjf123]

Apparently, a judge in Franklin County has ruled DeWine can’t do that and the election must happen tomorrow. Think I’ll sit this one out.


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[smileyy]

Too bad there's not a practical republican in the White House.

Oh how much I would settle for that.

[STL_XUfan]

Apparently, a judge in Franklin County has ruled DeWine can’t do that and the election must happen tomorrow. Think I’ll sit this one out.


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This is an occasion the judge is right on the law and wrong on the facts. Which is just such a shitty place to be. It puts people at risk while protecting the integrity of future elections.

[STL_XUfan]

This is an occasion the judge is right on the law and wrong on the facts. Which is just such a shitty place to be. It puts people at risk while protecting the integrity of future elections.

And now the health director has closed the polls with murky authority to delay the election. This is, legally speaking, a little bit bonkers at the moment.

[noteggs]

And now the health director has closed the polls with murky authority to delay the election. This is, legally speaking, a little bit bonkers at the moment.

Not say it’s right or wrong because I’ve never really thought about it, but didn’t realize the enormous power the health director has during this time.

[JTG]

I'm not sure June 2nd will be any better. If we're on the Italy curve it won't be.

But we're not Italy, and we certainly aren't China where people live like sardines. Chinese have been wearing masks for years because of the filthy air they breathe. Italy and France are not the most sanitary places on earth either. I trust that just like WWI and WWII the US will save the rest of the world like we always have.

[Mrs. Garrett]

But we're not Italy, and we certainly aren't China where people live like sardines. Chinese have been wearing masks for years because of the filthy air they breathe. Italy and France are not the most sanitary places on earth either. I trust that just like WWI and WWII the US will save the rest of the world like we always have.

That used to happen when we actually had capable leaders. This time around not so much.

[X-band '01]

I'm not sure June 2nd will be any better. If we're on the Italy curve it won't be.


And now the health director has closed the polls with murky authority to delay the election. This is, legally speaking, a little bit bonkers at the moment.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Better just to take a little heat now and give more people a chance to vote than to ram through a primary that will have a significantly reduced turnout.

Otherwise, an alternative would be to take a page out of Oregon's book and just go all mail-in ballot.

[STL_XUfan]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Better just to take a little heat now and give more people a chance to vote than to ram through a primary that will have a significantly reduced turnout.

Otherwise, an alternative would be to take a page out of Oregon's book and just go all mail-in ballot.
100% the right call this time. However a little scary that there is no check on this. What stops a Governor from ordering a health commissioner to cancel election down the road for a pretextual emergency? I would say political norms, but I think we have set all of those on fire at this point.

[X-band '01]

Couldn't the state or the feds just override an emergency declaration if need be? Remember that President Trump tried to claim what was happening at the border last year was a similar "national emergency" and was promptly shut down.

[chico]

One of the side effects of putting off the primary is it also puts off voting on other elections/issues on the ballot. Not saying DeWine made the wrong move - I think he made the right one - but there are more than just presidential candidacies at stake.

[paulxu]

I'm probably pretty naive when it comes to computer stuff, but I've always wondered about this:

- We trust computers with highly sensitive information and moving money for us. I'm always looking for the little lock thing in the address bar if I ever order from someplace new

- With all our technology expertise, why haven't we solved a safe, online, voting method? People without computers could still mail in/go to the poll. But the majority of Americans could vote online.

What am I missing?

[smileyy]

I would say that an election would be the most vulnerable think every done online and would be the target of every foreign attacker ever. Security is *hard*. Voting by mail is easy. Why not just do that?

[Juice]

I'm probably pretty naive when it comes to computer stuff, but I've always wondered about this:

- We trust computers with highly sensitive information and moving money for us. I'm always looking for the little lock thing in the address bar if I ever order from someplace new

- With all our technology expertise, why haven't we solved a safe, online, voting method? People without computers could still mail in/go to the poll. But the majority of Americans could vote online.

What am I missing?

“The Russians hacked the election.”

[paulxu]

I would think wide spread voting by mail would also be susceptible to problems. (just steal the envelopes)
I know the Russians worked hard at hacking different state voting machines/systems, but we can encrypt at a very high level.
Just thought someone would have put that to work for voting.
I'm OK with paper ballots at polling places like Canada. Just have to have enough places and poll workers.

[noteggs]

Prediction Bernie beats (or gets close) to Biden because young will do what they do - some show and some don’t while virus not a huge concern. On the other hand, Biden’s bread and butter turnout the elderly will decline dramatically.

After looking at early predictions in Florida, looks like I’m way off. Guess this is why I do so bad in pick the score

[smileyy]

FWIW, Washington State has done very well with vote by mail / drop box for years now. It's such a better way to vote.

[bobbiemcgee]

I agree. Haven't been in a voting booth for years. Just mail it.

[Masterofreality]

100% the right call this time. However a little scary that there is no check on this. What stops a Governor from ordering a health commissioner to cancel election down the road for a pretextual emergency? I would say political norms, but I think we have set all of those on fire at this point.

The Ohio Supreme Court with 2 Dems and 2 Republicans voting for, upheld both DeWine’s original call and the authority of the Heath Commissioner to rule.
I thought that the Franklin County Judge was tone deaf and off base, and the high court did too.
Now the Ohio Democratic Party, led by idiot David Pepper are challenging the decisions again. How stupid can one group be? I guess infinitely....

[X-man]

The Ohio Supreme Court with 2 Dems and 2 Republicans voting for, upheld both DeWine’s original call and the authority of the Heath Commissioner to rule.
I thought that the Franklin County Judge was tone deaf and off base, and the high court did too.
Now the Ohio Democratic Party, led by idiot David Pepper are challenging the decisions again. How stupid can one group be? I guess infinitely....

MOR, if you are going to get into the politics of this decision, at least be honest about it. Members of both parties in the state legislature (including Republican leaders) are arguing that the Ohio state constitution requires any change to be done by the state legislature. I agree with you that DeWine is doing an incredible job , but be honest. Link: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200317/ohio-democrats-gop-lawmaker-challenge-larose-authority-to-set-new-primary-date

[Masterofreality]

MOR, if you are going to get into the politics of this decision, at least be honest about it. Members of both parties in the state legislature (including Republican leaders) are arguing that the Ohio state constitution requires any change to be done by the state legislature. I agree with you that DeWine is doing an incredible job , but be honest. Link: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200317/ohio-democrats-gop-lawmaker-challenge-larose-authority-to-set-new-primary-date

WTF??? Just stop it. I guess you don't like me, and I could care less, but this has zero to do with a State Constitution. It is an extreme circumstance where extraordinary measures need to be taken, and DeWine and the Supreme Court agreed. Extreme measures override any narrow constitutional interpretation. The Franklin County judge was incredibly wrong and tone deaf and Pepper and the Democratic party are ridiculous in filing a challenge.
Yeah, just go ahead, force people to show up on a terrible date and put poll workers and voters at risk without any chance for proper precautions. And to say that they can't set a replacement date for live voting? Hell, they talk about voter suppression all the time but then want to quash a replacement date that is proper just because LaRose set it?
Good plan.

If you want the constitution to be changed, welp, legislators, go ahead and do it, but the Supreme Court, in a bi-partisan fashion, said that what DeWine and his Medical Director did was proper. So did former Secretary of State John Husted. Period. End of story.

[X-man]

WTF??? Just stop it. I guess you don't like me, and I could care less, but this has zero to do with a State Constitution. It is an extreme circumstance where extraordinary measures need to be taken, and DeWine and the Supreme Court agreed. Extreme measures override any narrow constitutional interpretation. The Franklin County judge was incredibly wrong and tone deaf and Pepper and the Democratic party are ridiculous in filing a challenge.
Yeah, just go ahead, force people to show up on a terrible date and put poll workers and voters at risk without any chance for proper precautions. And to say that they can't set a replacement date for live voting? Hell, they talk about voter suppression all the time but then want to quash a replacement date that is proper just because LaRose set it?
Good plan.

If you want the constitution to be changed, welp, legislators, go ahead and do it, but the Supreme Court, in a bi-partisan fashion, said that what DeWine and his Medical Director did was proper. So did former Secretary of State John Husted. Period. End of story.

Perhaps you might actually read the story to understand my point. The article cites key lawmakers from BOTH parties who are uncomfortable with how the changes were made...not the changes themselves, the way they were made. DeWine totally did the right thing when he had Acton declare a medical emergency as justification. And at least some of the lawmakers who were upset wanted extended mail-voting rather than a new primary date, for what I believe are constitutional reasons.

[Masterofreality]

Perhaps you might actually read the story to understand my point. The article cites key lawmakers from BOTH parties who are uncomfortable with how the changes were made...not the changes themselves, the way they were made. DeWine totally did the right thing when he had Acton declare a medical emergency as justification. And at least some of the lawmakers who were upset wanted extended mail-voting rather than a new primary date, for what I believe are constitutional reasons.

I read the story. There apparently was 1 Repub who complained along with the whole Dem party.
The legislature would take forever to act because that’s their nature. LaRose did the right thing & the Court and former officials agreed.
If Pepper didn’t like it, keep yo mouth shut, get your people in the legislative body to introduce a bill and work it through. Meanwhile everyone gets a chance to vote.
Another example as to why Dems keep losing in this state

[X-man]

I read the story. There apparently was 1 Repub who complained along with the whole Dem party.
The legislature would take forever to act because that’s their nature. LaRose did the right thing & the Court and former officials agreed.
If Pepper didn’t like it, keep yo mouth shut, get your people in the legislative body to introduce a bill and work it through. Meanwhile everyone gets a chance to vote.
Another example as to why Dems keep losing in this state

Because you clearly only read the headline, let me help you out here. Here is a quote from the article involving Speaker Householder (a Republican, obviously):

"But House Speaker Larry Householder said in a memo Tuesday, 'The date of Ohio’s primary election is set by state law and, as the secretary of state has acknowledged, the legal authority to change the date rests with the Ohio General Assembly — not the courts and not via executive fiat. So too does the process and manner in which the election is conducted.'"

So maybe you think the Dispatch is also "fake news"?

[Masterofreality]

Because you clearly only read the headline, let me help you out here. Here is a quote from the article involving Speaker Householder (a Republican, obviously):

"But House Speaker Larry Householder said in a memo Tuesday, 'The date of Ohio’s primary election is set by state law and, as the secretary of state has acknowledged, the legal authority to change the date rests with the Ohio General Assembly — not the courts and not via executive fiat. So too does the process and manner in which the election is conducted.'"

So maybe you think the Dispatch is also "fake news"?

I read the whole article. As usual you Dems want to allegedly “help” people when they really don’t need it and by trying to surreptitiously being people’s overlords. Read what I wrote. The point is that the Courts & officials all agree that what has been done is proper. All Householder is saying is that the Legislature should set the date, Not LaRose. That may be a point of order. But....
Legislators if you don’t like it, change the law. The suit was brought by the Ohio Democratic Party not the Ohio Republican Party. And why are the Dems so concerned about not giving people a date to vote in person? Why are they trying to limit voter access when for all these years all they cry about is "Voter Suppression"..then they want to limit the votes going forward to "absentee balloting only" until late April? Why? Talk about being disingenuous.

[Lamont Sanford]

I read the whole article. As usual you Dems want to allegedly “help” people when they really don’t need it and by trying to surreptitiously being people’s overlords. Read what I wrote. The point is that the Courts & officials all agree that what has been done is proper. All Householder is saying is that the Legislature should set the date, Not LaRose. That may be a point of order. But....
Legislators if you don’t like it, change the law. The suit was brought by the Ohio Democratic Party not the Ohio Republican Party. And why are the Dems so concerned about not giving people a date to vote in person? Why are they trying to limit voter access when for all these years all they cry about is "Voter Suppression"..then they want to limit the votes going forward to "absentee balloting only" until late April? Why? Talk about being disingenuous.

Preach brother! Hypocrites.

[X-man]

I read the whole article. As usual you Dems want to allegedly “help” people when they really don’t need it and by trying to surreptitiously being people’s overlords. Read what I wrote. The point is that the Courts & officials all agree that what has been done is proper. All Householder is saying is that the Legislature should set the date, Not LaRose. That may be a point of order. But....
Legislators if you don’t like it, change the law. The suit was brought by the Ohio Democratic Party not the Ohio Republican Party. And why are the Dems so concerned about not giving people a date to vote in person? Why are they trying to limit voter access when for all these years all they cry about is "Voter Suppression"..then they want to limit the votes going forward to "absentee balloting only" until late April? Why? Talk about being disingenuous.

What in hell are you talking about?

[Masterofreality]

What in hell are you talking about?

"Let me help you out here". (LARGE EYE ROLL

Answer why the Democrats filed suit to limit the voting to absentee only to the end of April.

"VOTER SUPPRESSION!!!!!!!!!!"

[X-band '01]

MOR, if you are going to get into the politics of this decision, at least be honest about it. Members of both parties in the state legislature (including Republican leaders) are arguing that the Ohio state constitution requires any change to be done by the state legislature. I agree with you that DeWine is doing an incredible job , but be honest. Link: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200317/ohio-democrats-gop-lawmaker-challenge-larose-authority-to-set-new-primary-date

Is this article behind their paywall, or are they lifting that while this whole COVID-19 situation is going on?

[noteggs]

Interesting piece from Tim Morrison. Guess Trump didn’t dismantle Obama’s epidemic task force after all. Does seem like Trump did reduce the NSC which had levels of redundancy. Not such a bad thing from a bloated fed government I would think.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/17/no_the_white_house_didnt_dissolve_its_pandemic_res ponse_office_142683.html

[Masterofreality]

Interesting piece from Tim Morrison. Guess Trump didn’t dismantle Obama’s epidemic task force after all. Does seem like Trump did reduce the NSC which had levels of redundancy. Not such a bad thing from a bloated fed government I would think.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/17/no_the_white_house_didnt_dissolve_its_pandemic_res ponse_office_142683.html

More real “fake news” from the left. They merely combined 3 directories into 1 for efficiencies sake. Even Obama had thought that the department had become unwieldy.
“ It has been alleged by multiple officials of the Obama administration, including in The Washington Post, that the president and his then-national security adviser, John Bolton, “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness. Because I led the very directorate assigned that mission, the counterproliferation and biodefense office, for a year and then handed it off to another official who still holds the post, I know the charge is specious.”
and..
“members of the Obama administration itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). As The Post reported in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.”

[SemajParlor]

Seems like a lot of Americans are open to this monthly government payout and free testing for everyone. Turns out all it takes was the playing field to be even for everyone to be on board with Andrew Yang and Bernie Sanders policies. Go figure.

[Strange Brew]

Seems like a lot of Americans are open to this monthly government payout and free testing for everyone. Turns out all it takes was the playing field to be even for everyone to be on board with Andrew Yang and Bernie Sanders policies. Go figure.

Cool, you buying?

[Xville]

Seems like a lot of Americans are open to this monthly government payout and free testing for everyone. Turns out all it takes was the playing field to be even for everyone to be on board with Andrew Yang and Bernie Sanders policies. Go figure.

I know this is the political thread but turning this pandemic into a political discussion/argument is probably the most tone deaf thing I have ever seen.

[Muskie in dayton]

Seems like a lot of Americans are open to this monthly government payout and free testing for everyone. Turns out all it takes was the playing field to be even for everyone to be on board with Andrew Yang and Bernie Sanders policies. Go figure.
...or to realize that that the government does have a role in particular instances and in particular times, while also realizing socialism sucks. That does figure.

[Muskie in dayton]

I know this is the political thread but turning this pandemic into a political discussion/argument is probably the most tone deaf thing I have ever seen.
Dammit you’re right. I fell for it again.

[SemajParlor]

I know this is the political thread but turning this pandemic into a political discussion/argument is probably the most tone deaf thing I have ever seen.

Why ? Look around, the government is failing us. And it started at the top.

[X-man]

"Let me help you out here". (LARGE EYE ROLL

Answer why the Democrats filed suit to limit the voting to absentee only to the end of April.

"VOTER SUPPRESSION!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll return the favor, and help you out. Link: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/18/ohio-coronavirus-mike-dewine-takes-criticism-some-republicans/2863136001/

[waggy]

So 2 trillion divided by 250 billion taxpayers is about $8,000 per taxpayer. Is my math off?

[GoMuskies]

So 2 trillion divided by 250 billion taxpayers is about $8,000 per taxpayer. Is my math off?

Well, there aren't 250 billion taxpayers, but otherwise looks good. However, according to MSNBC math, we could afford to give everyone $1 BILLION DOLLARS!

[Lloyd Braun]

So 2 trillion divided by 250 billion taxpayers is about $8,000 per taxpayer. Is my math off?

This assumes all taxpayers are created equal.

[Masterofreality]

I'll return the favor, and help you out. Link: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/18/ohio-coronavirus-mike-dewine-takes-criticism-some-republicans/2863136001/

WTF does that mean? Oh wow, are you surprised that Some Republicans might not be the lemmings that they are made out to be. I thought that they were all brainwashed sheep blindly following their dear leader!!
Last time I checked they didn't file any lawsuit like the Dems did. And there is zero way that anyone is going to get an impeachment action going against DeWine.
Yup. Just more media rabble rousing to try to sell papers. It's ludicrous.

[Masterofreality]

Well, there aren't 250 billion taxpayers, but otherwise looks good. However, according to MSNBC math, we could afford to give everyone $1 BILLION DOLLARS!

Just ask disgraced hack Brian Williams of MSNBC and that verrrrrrrrrry intelligent New York Times writer/editor!!! They should just ask Bloomberg to fund the whole thing!!

[Caf]

So 2 trillion divided by 250 billion taxpayers is about $8,000 per taxpayer. Is my math off?

Looked at the other direction, 330mm Americans * $1,000 = 330B. The corporate bailout is $500B. Thanks for playing suckers, you got robbed again. We can't be having ultra leveraged corporations learning lessons in this country.

[waggy]

Thanks for playing suckers, you got robbed again.

Yup. All the talking points are bullshit. They didn't even have to start a war for this one.

They should all be drug out in the street and shot.

[smileyy]

Why can't those corporations get a second job? Or save some money for a rainy day? Or stop buying avocado toast?

Why do billionaires hoard wealth and then get billion dollar bailouts?

Why doesn't the government require an equity stake in those classes corporations they're bailing out?

This experience is turning me into a communist (no joke). If you think communism means food for the privileged and bread lines for everyone else, I've got something to tell you about late-stage capitalism, buddy.

[Caf]

I'll give someone my check if they can find the details of this thing before it's on Trump's desk. Oh and the Federal Reserve is now buying corporate debt and paying BlackRock to do it. The guy who hired them used to work there. That was barely a headline.

[Caf]

Fun fact, the top 4 airlines spent $42B on stock buybacks since 2014 which was more than their free cash flow over the period $37B. That's only a good idea if you know Uncle Sam is your rainy day fund.

[smileyy]

Fun fact, the top 4 airlines spent $42B on stock buybacks since 2014 which was more than their free cash flow over the period $37B. That's only a good idea if you know Uncle Sam is your rainy day fund.

Disgusting.

Can I copy this to Facebook?

[STL_XUfan]

These bailouts feel a lot different than 2008 where we were bailing them out from a self inflicted wound. Instead this feels a lot more like a government taking situation, where for the greater good of society the government has essentially shut down bars, restaurants, hotels, and airlines.

[smileyy]

I'd argue that the stock buybacks are the self-inflicted wound. That's and I recognize that the airline industry needs to stay alive. That's why I'd be in favor of an equity stake in them in exchange for funding. That will never happen in this administrator.

[GoMuskies]

These bailouts feel a lot different than 2008 where we were bailing them out from a self inflicted wound. Instead this feels a lot more like a government taking situation, where for the greater good of society the government has essentially shut down bars, restaurants, hotels, and airlines.

I'm with you. No one was counting on a pandemic shutting down the country. This isn't moral hazard like in '08.

[MADXSTER]

I'd argue that the stock buybacks are the self-inflicted wound. That's and I recognize that the airline industry needs to stay alive. That's why I'd be in favor of an equity stake in them in exchange for funding. That will never happen in this administrator.

I hope that never happens with any administration.

[GoMuskies]

I WILL say that the corporate world better not whine about it the next time their tax rate goes up. We should change the name taxes to "government dividends".

[smileyy]

Hmmm what does this term imply? "government dividends" :laugh:

[paulxu]

Wall St and the big corporations once again play the American consumer for a sucker.

PT was right.

[GoMuskies]

Hmmm what does this term imply? "government dividends" :laugh:

It's not meant to imply anything from my perspective. It's to just outright damn SAY that the government is a stakeholder and gets its statutorily required cut of the profits.

[Caf]

Disgusting.

Can I copy this to Facebook?

Sure - here's your source: https://www.epsilontheory.com/do-the-right-thing/

[GoMuskies]

Wall St and the big corporations once again play the American consumer for a sucker.


Damn right. Someone on Wall Street in a big corporation created this coronavirus in a test tube and unleashed it on America so that they could get this bailout.

[paulxu]

Damn right. Someone on Wall Street in a big corporation created this coronavirus in a test tube and unleashed it on America so that they could get this bailout.

You know that's not what I meant. And the Dems are complicit in this crap.

[Caf]

Damn right. Someone on Wall Street in a big corporation created this coronavirus in a test tube and unleashed it on America so that they could get this bailout.

It doesn't matter what the catalyst is Go. It's about financialization. There's no reason companies this size can't survive 6-9 months. Again we still don't know the details but if they get this money and lay off a single person then shame on us.

[GoMuskies]

You know that's not what I meant. And the Dems are complicit in this crap.

They're not complicit. They were helpful. I mean, if you guys thought it was better to let large swaths of the economy collapse because of a pandemic...

[GoMuskies]

It doesn't matter what the catalyst is Go..

I think it matters quite a bit.

[Caf]

I think it matters quite a bit.

No it doesn't because these companies have structured their balance sheets in a way that they could not handle any unforeseen circumstances. They have done so because they know this backstop would be there for them and they'll do it again in the future.

[paulxu]

They're not complicit. They were helpful. I mean, if you guys thought it was better to let large swaths of the economy collapse because of a pandemic...

Of course they're complicit. They could structure this thing so there was more help for the people actually being hurt.
They could have put real teeth in any money going again to the companies who took the last tax cut (with all the crap people bought into about re-investment in America) and promptly paid big bonuses and bought back stock .

Also, I haven't heard a word about the deficit or debt. All I hear about are rumblings of cutting Soc Sec and Medicare.
We're all suckers for this situation, and the big boys are laughing all the way to the trough.

[noteggs]

These bailouts feel a lot different than 2008 where we were bailing them out from a self inflicted wound. Instead this feels a lot more like a government taking situation, where for the greater good of society the government has essentially shut down bars, restaurants, hotels, and airlines.

Nice post

[smileyy]

Omg I just read about the effectively 4 trillion dollars bailout with little.oversight. The Democrats rolled over on this one.

[GoMuskies]

No it doesn't because these companies have structured their balance sheets in a way that they could not handle any unforeseen circumstances.

This isn't "any unforseen circumstances". This is a literal shutdown of the economy.

[Caf]

This isn't "any unforseen circumstances". This is a literal shutdown of the economy.

I'm not saying this is not a massive event. I am saying there are consequences to abandoning capitalism when it gets inconvenient.

1) Businesses/executives got the appreciation on the way up, workers did not.
2) We're reinforcing the mindset that the stock price is the only relevant metric, so bet the house.
3) The only thing more levered than the companies we're bailing out is the federal government who never paid down the last round.

They're coming back to the trough in a month. You can bet your $1,200 on that.

[GoMuskies]

All relevant points if this was happening outside the context of a pandemic.

[waggy]

Omg I just read about the effectively 4 trillion dollars bailout with little.oversight. The Democrats rolled over on this one.

Rolled over? Haha. You think there are sides? The talking points are just distractions, diversions to a much bigger game.

[Caf]

All relevant points if this was happening outside the context of socialism.

The worst part is this won't even fix the problem. We don't even know how bad the problem is yet. People getting the benefit are not staying inside for $1,200, people making over 75k aren't staying home for nothing. Multiple states have said their portion is a drop in the bucket of what they need. I also think I hear the pension funds coming...

The piper will need to be paid someday. President AOC and the Donald Trump Jr. will likely have a few ideas. Might I suggest hyperinflation. Buy gold.

[waggy]

No we can fix this. The place to start is with how many federal agencies there are. So how many are there?

[smileyy]

We're going to need 4 months of UBI, a suspension of rent and mortgages, as well as student loans.

[Muskie in dayton]

No we can fix this. The place to start is with how many federal agencies there are. So how many are there?

If this is anything like the past, we’ll soon add the Department of Pandemic Response.

[STL_XUfan]

I don’t think we are talking enough about the trillion dollar coins that are being minted. What do these things look like? Are they going to be the size of a regular coin or be a comically oversized coin? Who is going to get to handle it? Assuming sports return, could we use it for the coin toss at the Super Bowl next year?

[boozehound]

This is an interesting one (for me). I think we absolutely have to help companies, small and large, right now. This is a set of circumstances that has literally never happened here. It's unreasonable to expect companies to hold the kind of capital reserves they would need to weather something like this.

Now, do I think that companies have spent too much money buying back stock instead of paying down debt and building cash reserves? Maybe/probably. Right now we just need to keep the economy afloat though. I'm actually more concerned that this won't do enough for the thousands of small businesses that will be significantly impacted. They obviously don't have the voice($) that large corporations have in Washington.

[xubrew]

Is it silly to say that billionaires must be really bad with their money if they're always needing to be bailed out whenever their companies take a loss? I mean, lots of other people are losing money and no one is bailing them out. They're just expected to kind of make it work. I think that's true for most of us.

[Caf]

Fun new detail, the Fed is now allowed to meet without providing minutes. We will need to back into where our $500B went.

[GoMuskies]

This Tara Reade story is going to heat up for Joe Biden.

https://newsone.com/3917043/tara-reade-joe-biden-sexual-assault-accuser-breaks-silence/

[noteggs]

This is an interesting one (for me). I think we absolutely have to help companies, small and large, right now. This is a set of circumstances that has literally never happened here. It's unreasonable to expect companies to hold the kind of capital reserves they would need to weather something like this.

Now, do I think that companies have spent too much money buying back stock instead of paying down debt and building cash reserves? Maybe/probably. Right now we just need to keep the economy afloat though. I'm actually more concerned that this won't do enough for the thousands of small businesses that will be significantly impacted. They obviously don't have the voice($) that large corporations have in Washington.

This is where I’m at. I’ve never supported this type of spending or giving bailouts. However, when the government mandates closures to small businesses and take away their revenues, what’s the alternative.

The devil is certainly going to be in the details. As CAF accurately pointed out, it scares the hell out of me the government has the ability to choose the winners and losers. Moving forward there HAS to be a better way to handle a situation like this (take away the D and R’s behind the names please). Giving this type of control to the Federal government is flat out crazy considering how much they waste to begin with. Also concerning, no one has brought up how we’re going to pay for this monster debt.

[bjf123]

No we can fix this. The place to start is with how many federal agencies there are. So how many are there?

Whatever the number is, it’s too many.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caf]

This is where I’m at. I’ve never supported this type of spending or giving bailouts. However, when the government mandates closures to small businesses and take away their revenues, what’s the alternative.

The devil is certainly going to be in the details. As CAF accurately pointed out, it scares the hell out of me the government has the ability to choose the winners and losers. Moving forward there HAS to be a better way to handle a situation like this (take away the D and R’s behind the names please). Giving this type of control to the Federal government is flat out crazy considering how much they waste to begin with. Also concerning, no one has brought up how we’re going to pay for this monster debt.

There is never a convenient time to break this trend. Our economic policy is now just like our Middle Eastern one. Past mistakes are used to justify new mistakes. It's a hard trigger to pull with impossible to wrap your head around ramifications, but the easiest way to prevent bailouts tomorrow is to not do bailouts today. The leverage will keep growing and the crashes will keep coming until there is a US sovereign debt crisis. I see no reason to think our leaders will not kick the can down the road until their is absolutely no other choice.

As for your last sentence, read up and get comfortable with how to live and invest under Modern Monetary Theory. It's here to stay.

[noteggs]

There is never a convenient time to break this trend. Our economic policy is now just like our Middle Eastern one. Past mistakes are used to justify new mistakes. It's a hard trigger to pull with impossible to wrap your head around ramifications, but the easiest way to prevent bailouts tomorrow is to not do bailouts today. The leverage will keep growing and the crashes will keep coming until there is a US sovereign debt crisis. I see no reason to think our leaders will not kick the can down the road until their is absolutely no other choice.

As for your last sentence, read up and get comfortable with how to live and invest under Modern Monetary Theory. It's here to stay.

Fair and good point. Forgot about the point of not learning from our past mistakes. I guess trying to us a somewhat pragmatic approach (admittedly emotional at this time) to replace lost revenues and compensation that were essentially confiscated by the government fails in those terms.

And yes MMT scares the hell out of me as well. Until you reminded of this theory, I can definitely see the parallels to the stimulus. Hopefully you are wrong on your last sentence, but you could be right.

See, this thread can make us second guess our opinions.

[Caf]

They're coming back to the trough in a month. You can bet your $1,200 on that.

After Three Coronavirus Stimulus Packages, Congress Is Already Prepping Phase Four - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-three-coronavirus-stimulus-packages-congress-is-already-prepping-phase-four-11585483203)

[smileyy]

I can't imagine what else we're supposed to do.

We're either going to end up with a socialist state or a fascist state by the time this is all done.

[Juice]

I can't imagine what else we're supposed to do.

We're either going to end up with a socialist state or a fascist state by the time this is all done.

We are allowing aspects of both to happen. There is no way we can pay for what Congress just passed. We couldn't pay for Congress has passed over the past few decades. We are squeezing the middle class. Everyone will either be rich or poor. Nothing in between. Small businesses will not survive this mess, only huge companies.

And we are allowing governors to pass authoritarian measures without any checks from the people or the judiciary. People are being confined to their homes. People are not allowed to work and provide for their families as their business go under, their jobs are furloughed, or simply fired from. People are being asked not to travel to other states and I'm sure travel will be restricted very shortly between states. People are just sitting by and just taking it.

I know I'm being very doom and gloom but I can't wait until the next "crisis" happens again in this country and the politicians use the tools and bullshit they used during this to grab more power.

[Caf]

We are allowing aspects of both to happen. There is no way we can pay for what Congress just passed. We couldn't pay for Congress has passed over the past few decades. We are squeezing the middle class. Everyone will either be rich or poor. Nothing in between. Small businesses will not survive this mess, only huge companies.

And we are allowing governors to pass authoritarian measures without any checks from the people or the judiciary. People are being confined to their homes. People are not allowed to work and provide for their families as their business go under, their jobs are furloughed, or simply fired from. People are being asked not to travel to other states and I'm sure travel will be restricted very shortly between states. People are just sitting by and just taking it.

I know I'm being very doom and gloom but I can't wait until the next "crisis" happens again in this country and the politicians use the tools and bullshit they used during this to grab more power.

I'm 1000% with you on all of this except the bolded. I think there is solid rationale for closing businesses, especially for the workers. If the government is going to take these precautions they need to compensate people for staying home though. The alternative scenario is people are financially motivated to put their's, their families, and society's, health at risk and this reality is very biased towards the poor and working class. You know much more about the legal side of this, so I'll defer to you on that.

We as a society hold the stock market and maintaining status quo above all else. In times like this, in the market all correlations go to 1. Well the same thing happens in our leadership - they are all the same, even the people's champ DJT. We are lead by sociopaths on both sides of the aisle. The business bailout and loan program is some of the dumbest bull I have ever seen. A business who cannot afford to keep their employees with a super cheap government loan stands little chance to stay solvent so we'll lose that money and those jobs. Conversely, a business who can afford to keep employees will have the loan forgiven regardless of whether or not they really needed it. The government is not getting our money back in any scenario. Just light the money on fire next time - maybe the heat will help kill the virus.

[Juice]

I'm 1000% with you on all of this except the bolded. I think there is solid rationale for closing businesses, especially for the workers. If the government is going to take these precautions they need to compensate people for staying home though. The alternative scenario is people are financially motivated to put their's, their families, and society's, health at risk and this reality is very biased towards the poor and working class. You know much more about the legal side of this, so I'll defer to you on that.

We as a society hold the stock market and maintaining status quo above all else. In times like this, in the market all correlations go to 1. Well the same thing happens in our leadership - they are all the same, even the people's champ DJT. We are lead by sociopaths on both sides of the aisle. The business bailout and loan program is some of the dumbest bull I have ever seen. A business who cannot afford to keep their employees with a super cheap government loan stands little chance to stay solvent so we'll lose that money and those jobs. Conversely, a business who can afford to keep employees will have the loan forgiven regardless of whether or not they really needed it. The government is not getting our money back in any scenario. Just light the money on fire next time - maybe the heat will help kill the virus.

You make a good point. Either way, it's a bad situation for low income or middle class people because either their health or their income is sacrificed. 200,000 people combined from Macy's and the GAP lost their jobs yesterday. I just don't like all the deferring to politicians who know as little about this stuff as we do and also will be getting their paychecks regardless of how bad this gets.

[smileyy]

I forget, have I mentioned that we need suspensions of rent, mortgagees (even for landlords), and utility and student loan payment. That way government relief to people can mostly be covering food.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I forget, have I mentioned that we need suspensions of rent, mortgagees (even for landlords), and utility and student loan payment. That way government relief to people can mostly be covering food.

This makes too much sense for politicians to actually do it.

[noteggs]

I know I'm being very doom and gloom but I can't wait until the next "crisis" happens again in this country and the politicians use the tools and bullshit they used during this to grab more power.

I know I originally said it probably was a good time for a stimulus although I’ve never done so in the past. After some time, reading stuff here and elsewhere, think I may have bought into the hysteria.

Just like Rahm Emanuel once said, “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” This is exactly what happened and the best way to describe what we just witnessed. Normally we have a little time to contemplate without looming fear hanging over our heads to see how ridiculous the spending was/is. Well done politicians on getting this one past me!

[Caf]

America can withstand low oil prices more than Saudi Arabia but US shale firm's have breakevens in the upper $40 low $50 range. Some have already announced Capex cutbacks and it's been 12 hours.

U.S. Shale Driller Whiting Petroleum Files For Bankruptcy (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-shale-driller-whiting-petroleum-to-file-for-bankruptcy-11585746800)

[smileyy]

Private health care: "How much will you pay to stay alive? Oh, infinity dollars? Well, guess what we'll be charging you..."

[bobbiemcgee]

U.S. Shale Driller Whiting Petroleum Files For Bankruptcy (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-shale-driller-whiting-petroleum-to-file-for-bankruptcy-11585746800)

Colorado shale cos. are down 85 to 98%.

[Strange Brew]

Colorado shale cos. are down 85 to 98%.

And that’s not a good thing.

[Xville]

Private health care: "How much will you pay to stay alive? Oh, infinity dollars? Well, guess what we'll be charging you..."

Agree that private health care needs an overhaul however the statement above doesnt matter. Out of pocket would be met,. However, I think it is crazy that it ever became commonplace for a company to pay a percentage or all of an individual's premium. Anyways, although private is effed up, the answer is not to put your health in the hands of government.

[Lloyd Braun]

Agree that private health care needs an overhaul however the statement above doesnt matter. Out of pocket would be met,. However, I think it is crazy that it ever became commonplace for a company to pay a percentage or all of an individual's premium. Anyways, although private is effed up, the answer is not to put your health in the hands of government.

The out of pocket numbers are also increasing exponentially. Compare your deductible now to 2, 5, 10 years ago.

Tricare and Medicare are actually quite successful programs with high approval ratings from those insured.

[Xville]

The out of pocket numbers are also increasing exponentially. Compare your deductible now to 2, 5, 10 years ago.

Tricare and Medicare are actually quite successful programs with high approval ratings from those insured.

Out of pocket and deductible are two different things, and they are not increasing exponentially at least not across the board. Premiums are at about a 10% clip on average. Fuethermore, only 1-2% ever hit the max and only 10% of population have any measurable health costs (about 5 k a year). Ya know on a average the number of times people see a doctor every year? 1.5 times. If you run or work for a small company, I highly recommend looking at a peo to stabilize costs like benefits etc. Anyways, ACA did some good things like preexisting conditions and put in out of pocket limit but it also fucked the middle class because the gap of what people were paying in premiums shrank which means everyone paid more. ACA started to do some good things, but it needs to be tweaked in a lot of areas.

Yeah I love paying an effing medicare tax every check it's awesome. Almost as I love paying ss that I'll never see.

Medicare works great at this low participation, its not scalable.

[Lloyd Braun]

Deductibles are the main contributor to out of pocket costs once you need healthcare. If you lump in deductibles and premiums together they are definitely increasing across the board.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-health-insurance-medical-bills-20190502-story.html

Nobody loves paying a Medicare tax but what does that have to do with anything? You pay it now so that you are covered later. Whether Medicare will withstand all the healthcare changes is another story, and overhaul is likely needed. But that is because it is not designed for profit. It is absolutely scalable and would likely be cheaper, as it is currently covering our sickest and most costly population.

[boozehound]

Agree that private health care needs an overhaul however the statement above doesnt matter. Out of pocket would be met,. However, I think it is crazy that it ever became commonplace for a company to pay a percentage or all of an individual's premium. Anyways, although private is effed up, the answer is not to put your health in the hands of government.

Why is it crazy that a company would pay a percentage of your premium? Hell, they used to pay all of it. It was just a benefit. Like a pension. If you wanted to attract skilled employees you had to have benefits. You could argue that America worked best when companies provided health benefits and pensions for their employees. Employees were loyal to companies (somewhat forcibly, but regardless) and workers were able to retire with healthcare and a living wage. Now we have a system where 3 guys have half the country's wealth and the majority of people have no sufficient savings on which to retire and cannot afford their healthcare costs. It's difficult to see that working over the long haul. It's also why every government eventually fails. The wealthy continue to find ways to get wealthier at the expense of the rest of the populus until the wealth divide becomes so great that the people rise up and overthrow the regime. The best systems, in my opinion, balance capitalism with managing the wealth divide so that the average citizen stays relatively happy. Providing for affordable healthcare is at the very core of that.

[Xville]

Deductibles are the main contributor to out of pocket costs once you need healthcare. If you lump in deductibles and premiums together they are definitely increasing across the board.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-health-insurance-medical-bills-20190502-story.html

Nobody loves paying a Medicare tax but what does that have to do with anything? You pay it now so that you are covered later. Whether Medicare will withstand all the healthcare changes is another story, and overhaul is likely needed. But that is because it is not designed for profit. It is absolutely scalable and would likely be cheaper, as it is currently covering our sickest and most costly population.

If you think Medicare for all would be cheaper then I'm done with this conversation.

[Lloyd Braun]

If you think Medicare for all would be cheaper then I'm done with this conversation.

Cheaper per capita covered, not overall.

[Xville]

Why is it crazy that a company would pay a percentage of your premium? Hell, they used to pay all of it. It was just a benefit. Like a pension. If you wanted to attract skilled employees you had to have benefits. You could argue that America worked best when companies provided health benefits and pensions for their employees. Employees were loyal to companies (somewhat forcibly, but regardless) and workers were able to retire with healthcare and a living wage. Now we have a system where 3 guys have half the country's wealth and the majority of people have no sufficient savings on which to retire and cannot afford their healthcare costs. It's difficult to see that working over the long haul. It's also why every government eventually fails. The wealthy continue to find ways to get wealthier at the expense of the rest of the populus until the wealth divide becomes so great that the people rise up and overthrow the regime. The best systems, in my opinion, balance capitalism with managing the wealth divide so that the average citizen stays relatively happy. Providing for affordable healthcare is at the very core of that.

Pensions and benefits cost an employer a crap ton of money obviously. We are seeing the effects of companies paying out 30 years of payroll now and I'm sorry but paying 30 plus years after you no longer working there is insanity.

401k and IRAs are a better option, sucks that people cant be responsible enough to build that up over time to retire on. Personal responsibility.

[boozehound]

Out of pocket and deductible are two different things, and they are not increasing exponentially at least not across the board. Premiums are at about a 10% clip on average. Fuethermore, only 1-2% ever hit the max and only 10% of population have any measurable health costs (about 5 k a year). Ya know on a average the number of times people see a doctor every year? 1.5 times. If you run or work for a small company, I highly recommend looking at a peo to stabilize costs like benefits etc. Anyways, ACA did some good things like preexisting conditions and put in out of pocket limit but it also fucked the middle class because the gap of what people were paying in premiums shrank which means everyone paid more. ACA started to do some good things, but it needs to be tweaked in a lot of areas.

Yeah I love paying an effing medicare tax every check it's awesome. Almost as I love paying ss that I'll never see.

Medicare works great at this low participation, its not scalable.

I hate this mentality. You pay taxes and you don't always benefit from them. It's how a Country works. Go live on an island if you don't want to do anything to provide for anybody else. Medicare tax is minimal anyways.

I'm fortunate to pay taxes. I'm aware of how fortunate I am, and I remind myself that that every year when I do my taxes and see how much I actually paid. I'd like for that money to go to helping run the country as efficiently as possible and to provide basic needs for people in a way that allows this great country to continue to be great for many years to come.

To address healthcare specifically: Healthcare is wildly regressive right now. If I take home $20K per month and pay $1K in premiums that is such a drop in the bucket that I don't even know I'm paying it. If I take home $4K per month that $1K in premiums is a significant part of my monthly expenses. That's not even getting into the expenses once you seek actual care. I had to take one of my kids to the ER a few months ago. The bill (after insurance adjustment) was over $3K. He received very little treatment and did not ride in an ambulance. If my financial situation was different I probably wouldn't have taken him in. That would have worked out this time as there was nothing seriously wrong with him, but had something been wrong it could have had major consequences.

[Xville]

Cheaper per capita covered, not overall.

Doubt it and believe care would suffer. Need an overhaul of the system or the aca needs to be tweaked. Dont see scaling Medicare to be the answer.

[Xville]

Why is it crazy that a company would pay a percentage of your premium? Hell, they used to pay all of it. It was just a benefit. Like a pension. If you wanted to attract skilled employees you had to have benefits. You could argue that America worked best when companies provided health benefits and pensions for their employees. Employees were loyal to companies (somewhat forcibly, but regardless) and workers were able to retire with healthcare and a living wage. Now we have a system where 3 guys have half the country's wealth and the majority of people have no sufficient savings on which to retire and cannot afford their healthcare costs. It's difficult to see that working over the long haul. It's also why every government eventually fails. The wealthy continue to find ways to get wealthier at the expense of the rest of the populus until the wealth divide becomes so great that the people rise up and overthrow the regime. The best systems, in my opinion, balance capitalism with managing the wealth divide so that the average citizen stays relatively happy. Providing for affordable healthcare is at the very core of that.

Efficiently as possible and the government together....thanks for the laugh this morning

[Xville]

I hate this mentality. You pay taxes and you don't always benefit from them. It's how a Country works. Go live on an island if you don't want to do anything to provide for anybody else. Medicare tax is minimal anyways.

I'm fortunate to pay taxes. I'm aware of how fortunate I am, and I remind myself that that every year when I do my taxes and see how much I actually paid. I'd like for that money to go to helping run the country as efficiently as possible and to provide basic needs for people in a way that allows this great country to continue to be great for many years to come.

To address healthcare specifically: Healthcare is wildly regressive right now. If I take home $20K per month and pay $1K in premiums that is such a drop in the bucket that I don't even know I'm paying it. If I take home $4K per month that $1K in premiums is a significant part of my monthly expenses. That's not even getting into the expenses once you seek actual care. I had to take one of my kids to the ER a few months ago. The bill (after insurance adjustment) was over $3K. He received very little treatment and did not ride in an ambulance. If my financial situation was different I probably wouldn't have taken him in. That would have worked out this time as there was nothing seriously wrong with him, but had something been wrong it could have had major consequences.

By the way, I know how effed up healthcare is right now. I have 3 year old twins and especially that first year we spent more time in the doctors office and hospital than anyone. Hell, they were born premature and were in the nicu for 6 plus weeks and my daughter has had multiple surgeries since then to fox her cleft pallet. We will probably have recurring payments to medical for years and years.

Definitely not saying healthcare is wonderful, but I also dont want to put in the hands of a federal government that in most cases doesnt know what the fuck they are doing.

[Xville]

I hate this mentality. You pay taxes and you don't always benefit from them. It's how a Country works. Go live on an island if you don't want to do anything to provide for anybody else. Medicare tax is minimal anyways.

I'm fortunate to pay taxes. I'm aware of how fortunate I am, and I remind myself that that every year when I do my taxes and see how much I actually paid. I'd like for that money to go to helping run the country as efficiently as possible and to provide basic needs for people in a way that allows this great country to continue to be great for many years to come.

To address healthcare specifically: Healthcare is wildly regressive right now. If I take home $20K per month and pay $1K in premiums that is such a drop in the bucket that I don't even know I'm paying it. If I take home $4K per month that $1K in premiums is a significant part of my monthly expenses. That's not even getting into the expenses once you seek actual care. I had to take one of my kids to the ER a few months ago. The bill (after insurance adjustment) was over $3K. He received very little treatment and did not ride in an ambulance. If my financial situation was different I probably wouldn't have taken him in. That would have worked out this time as there was nothing seriously wrong with him, but had something been wrong it could have had major consequences.

Also I'd love for you to tell that guy bringing home the 4k that the Medicare tax along with ss is minimal on top of premiums etc.

And your comment regarding living on an island if I dont want to provide for anybody else is complete bullshit by the way. I want to help in the way I want to help and causes I care about and where I think my money should go, not have it mandated by a government that doesnt give a shit about me.

[boozehound]

By the way, I know how effed up healthcare is right now. I have 3 year old twins and especially that first year we spent more time in the doctors office and hospital than anyone. Hell, they were born premature and were in the nicu for 6 plus weeks and my daughter has had multiple surgeries since then to fox her cleft pallet. We will probably have recurring payments to medical for years and years.

Definitely not saying healthcare is wonderful, but I also dont want to put in the hands of a federal government that in most cases doesnt know what the fuck they are doing.

Small world. I also have 3 year old twins (almost 4).

Listen, I agree with you that the government doesn't know what they are doing. I'm not really sure that the free market does either, in terms of healthcare, and I have

I'm not necessarily in the Medicare for all camp, but I'm not necessarily opposed to it. I would like to see major healthcare reform as an intermediate step regardless. If it works then we can stop talking about Medicare for all, because their won't be a need. If the current system worked better for more people then we wouldn't have everyone wanting Medicare for all.

We can start with some simple things like billing equity and transparency. A procedure should cost what a procedure costs. My insurance shouldn't get billed $2K for an MRI that I would pay $200 out of pocket for. If you go to a hospital you should get 1 bill from the hospital, not separate bills from every provider that treated you while you where there.

[Caf]

This week in Crazy Shit You're Ignoring Because You're Scared, the New York Federal Reserve has extended a $60B credit line to Indonesia! Someday, 'What was the Federal Reserves original mandate?' will be a trivia question.

[bobbiemcgee]

U.S. Shale Driller Whiting Petroleum Files For Bankruptcy (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-shale-driller-whiting-petroleum-to-file-for-bankruptcy-11585746800)

Makes me sick that this company paid out $14.6 million to their key employees in "bonuses" for bankrupting the company. The crooked bastard CEO also got an additional $6.4 million days before the filing. Meanwhile the Colorado taxpayers will eventually have the pay to clean up all their filthy drilling sites. Instead of bonuses, they should all go to jail for Fraud.

[Caf]

Coronavirus Crisis Legacy: Mountains of Debt - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-crisis-legacy-mountains-of-debt-11586447687?mod=hp_lead_pos5)

[Lloyd Braun]

I imagine this is not an isolated event

Company with zero employees awarded contract to manufacture masks. (https://www.businessinsider.com/fema-paid-bankrupt-company-no-employees-55-million-n95-masks-2020-4)

[boozehound]

I imagine this is not an isolated event

Company with zero employees awarded contract to manufacture masks. (https://www.businessinsider.com/fema-paid-bankrupt-company-no-employees-55-million-n95-masks-2020-4)

Hard to tell how much of this is government and ineptitude and how much may have been a scam, but obviously anybody using COVID to scam the government out of money should be locked up for life.

[nuts4xu]

https://media.tits-guru.com/images/bc392ffb-9e1d-479e-bf6d-81266a38da96.jpeg

[nuts4xu]

OOOPS!! Wrong thread...my bad fellas.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[STL_XUfan]

OOOPS!! Wrong thread...my bad fellas.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Great now I have to answer to the HR director at my home office....

[bjf123]

Great now I have to answer to the HR director at my home office....

Then you’re in deep shit!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

If he's working from home, the HR director is probably his wife.

[bjf123]

Exactly. Hence the deep shit!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Muskie in dayton]

OOOPS!! Wrong thread...my bad fellas.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
That’s OK. No problem.

[paulxu]

Things I learned today from the President's Covid-19 Pandemic Briefing:

1 - Drudge's website traffic is down because he's critical of Trump. Drudge has refuted this. Claims record numbers.
2 - We're investigating China
3 - Governors like to complain
4 - Obama administration was a failure
5 - Criticism of testing shortage is a witch hunt
6 - Great OPEC deal
7 - Biden is not good
8 - Bad Iran nuclear deal
9 - China is paying tariffs (I'm pretty sure they aren't)
10 - Faucci wasn't there
11 - Nobody's tougher on Putin
12 - The world would be over if he wasn't president because of war with North Korea
13 - Critics are stupid people, haters

I think he misses his rallies and the adoring hordes.

[X-man]

Things I learned today from the President's Covid-19 Pandemic Briefing:

1 - Drudge's website traffic is down because he's critical of Trump. Drudge has refuted this. Claims record numbers.
2 - We're investigating China
3 - Democratic Governors like to complain
4 - Obama administration was a failure
5 - Criticism of testing shortage is a witch hunt
6 - Great OPEC deal
7 - Biden is not good
8 - Bad Iran nuclear deal
9 - China is paying tariffs (I'm pretty sure they aren't)
10 - Faucci wasn't there
11 - Nobody's tougher on Putin
12 - The world would be over if he wasn't president because of war with North Korea
13 - Critics are stupid people, haters

I think he misses his rallies and the adoring hordes.

Fixed that for you.

[bobbiemcgee]

Only 36% trust Trump to tell the truth in regards to the virus. Pathetic for an American President.

[xudash]

Only 36% trust Trump to tell the truth in regards to the virus. Pathetic for an American President.

Pathetic for a Far Left media that is partially responsible for that.

[bobbiemcgee]

Trump, Rush, Hannity and your media darlings @ Fox say it's a hoax. So ya got that.

[Juice]

Only 36% trust Trump to tell the truth in regards to the virus. Pathetic for an American President.

In that same poll, only 26% said they trusted Biden. Pathetic for a former Vice President and Presidential candidate.

[bobbiemcgee]

Not surprised. He ain't the President.....yet.

[Masterofreality]

Not surprised. He ain't the President.....yet.

And he won’t be. He can’t remember how many Grandchildren he has and can’t even put two coherent sentences together.
Way to decide on a viable candidate, Dems!! An old, white pre-dementia laced guy with a corrupt son. Well done!!!

[Caf]

Is banning immigration an overreaction? Is anyone on this board who disagrees with the shutdown actually willing to criticize their boy Donald? And I'm not talking about, "I think he's an orange crook yada yada BUT" criticism.

[GoMuskies]

If banning people from protesting (1st amendment) is okay right now, I don't think immigration is currently a big issue. Who wants to allow people across any border right now?

[STL_XUfan]

Is banning immigration an overreaction? Is anyone on this board who disagrees with the shutdown actually willing to criticize their boy Donald? And I'm not talking about, "I think he's an orange crook yada yada BUT" criticism.

I mean isn't this a little bit of virtue signaling? I believe Visa offices are already closed and the borders are essentially shut down. So is it really going to change anything? Seems like this is just designed rile up his base and the left to change the topic of conversation off of lack of testing.

[Caf]

I mean isn't this a little bit of virtue signaling? I believe Visa offices are already closed and the borders are essentially shut down. So is it really going to change anything? Seems like this is just designed rile up his base and the left to change the topic of conversation off of lack of testing.

Sure it is. I have no qualms admitting I'm using this as a purity test. MAGA supporters around the country, and here, are calling distancing measures an overreaction, but cannot say it about their boy.

[Caf]

If banning people from protesting (1st amendment) is okay right now, I don't think immigration is currently a big issue. Who wants to allow people across any border right now?

Banning protesting is dumb.

[GoMuskies]

Not sure I get the point. The three-phase plan the Trump administration put out for re-opening the country includes pretty strict distancing requirements in phase one and moderate distancing requirements in phase two.

[STL_XUfan]

Banning protesting is dumb.

Is there a state actually banning it? I think the only requirement I have seen is that protesters have to socially distance. Section 12(g) of the Ohio order directly exempts First Amendment Speech from the stay at home order.

[GoMuskies]

People were arrested at a protest in Raleigh merely for the act of protesting. Now, maybe I don't think it's the BEST idea to get together and protest right now. However, to have police arresting people just for protesting? No thanks.

[Muskie in dayton]

Is banning immigration an overreaction? Is anyone on this board who disagrees with the shutdown actually willing to criticize their boy Donald? And I'm not talking about, "I think he's an orange crook yada yada BUT" criticism.

If you read the story, you’ll see it has nothing to do with the spread of COVID-19, but because there are no jobs available and this protects the US workers. Makes sense to me.

Not that it should matter but I do not like Trump, but I am fair.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/04/20/coronavirus-updates-us-deaths-cases-trump-paycheck-protection/5162208002/

[Caf]

If you read the story, you’ll see it has nothing to do with the spread of COVID-19, but because there are no jobs available and this protects the US workers. Makes sense to me.

Not that it should matter but I do not like Trump, but I am fair.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/04/20/coronavirus-updates-us-deaths-cases-trump-paycheck-protection/5162208002/

Didn't see the story until I went to respond, it's somehow invisible in your post.

I get the real intention, but he is at least partially doing it under the guise of covid. Take it from the horses mouth, "In light of the attack from the Invisible Enemy, as well as the need to protect the jobs of our GREAT American Citizens, I will be signing an Executive Order to temporarily suspend immigration into the United States!" Notice the citizen job protection part is second.

If this lasts we may find out just how unable many businesses are to afford American workers. Historically low demand for some commodities and resulting deflation will only double this impact. If we get through a prolonged period of no immigration it will be a first step to ending globalization. Might not be the worst thing long-term.

The overall point I'm making is the hypocrisy of the MAGA crowd. Protesting, posting, etc that this has become overstated and being used by their political enemies, but oh yeah I don't like immigration so let's cut that. Immigration is vital and ending it is an enormous choice with ramifications we cannot begin to predict, just like closing countless businesses.

[Lloyd Braun]

If you scroll through this thread (https://twitter.com/laurahancock/status/1251587588521103361?s=20) you can see the agenda of many of these “protestors.”

[GoMuskies]

If you scroll through this thread (https://twitter.com/laurahancock/status/1251587588521103361?s=20) you can see the agenda of many of these “protestors.”

You don't have to think protestors have a positive agenda to believe they have a right to protest. I'm still in favor of the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, personally.

[Lloyd Braun]

You don't have to think protestors have a positive agenda to believe they have a right to protest. I'm still in favor of the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, personally.

Yea I agree they should be allowed to protest... Just saying their agenda is not directly about protecting the economy and COVID

[Muskie in dayton]

Didn't see the story until I went to respond, it's somehow invisible in your post.

I get the real intention, but he is at least partially doing it under the guise of covid. Take it from the horses mouth, "In light of the attack from the Invisible Enemy, as well as the need to protect the jobs of our GREAT American Citizens, I will be signing an Executive Order to temporarily suspend immigration into the United States!" Notice the citizen job protection part is second.

If this lasts we may find out just how unable many businesses are to afford American workers. Historically low demand for some commodities and resulting deflation will only double this impact. If we get through a prolonged period of no immigration it will be a first step to ending globalization. Might not be the worst thing long-term.

The overall point I'm making is the hypocrisy of the MAGA crowd. Protesting, posting, etc that this has become overstated and being used by their political enemies, but oh yeah I don't like immigration so let's cut that. Immigration is vital and ending itis an enormous choice with ramifications we cannot begin to predict, just like closing countless businesses.

Fair enough. All partisans are hypocrites IMO.

As to the invisible link, I have no idea why that happened.

[Caf]

"I would certainly be in favor of allowing states to use the bankruptcy route. It saves some cities. And there’s no good reason for it not to be available. My guess is their first choice would be for the federal government to borrow money from future generations to send it down to them now so they don’t have to do that. That’s not something I’m going to be in favor of," McConnell said.

...

"You raised yourself the important issue of what states have done, many of them have done it to themselves with their pension programs. There’s not going to be any desire on the Republican side to bail out state pensions by borrowing money from future generations," McConnell said, after Hewitt floated Illinois, California and Connecticut as examples of states that have overly generous benefits for public employees.

"We’ll certainly insist that anything we’d borrow to send down to the states is not spent on solving problems that they created for themselves over the years with their pension program," McConnell added.

___________________________________

We are playing a game of hot-potato with insurmountable debt. Let's see if the boomers can get it to the millennials.

[bobbiemcgee]

Made me laugh. Congress has taken trillions from the SS Trust Fund.

[boozehound]

New HHS Spokesman Michael Caputo's Twitter History (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/politics/michael-caputo-tweets/index.html)

Oops. This administration's ineptitude would be hilarious if the stakes weren't so high right now. Doesn't seem that hard to check someone's twitter history?

[Lloyd Braun]

New HHS Spokesman Michael Caputo's Twitter History (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/politics/michael-caputo-tweets/index.html)

Oops. This administration's ineptitude would be hilarious if the stakes weren't so high right now. Doesn't seem that hard to check someone's twitter history?

It’s sad but this one is pure gold:
March 15: Caputo tweets at Daniel Goldman, a lawyer for House Democrats during impeachment, "Wow. I started out feeling badly for you. At least now we know the Wuhan Virus doesn't have any lingering effects on douchebags."
Goldman had tested positive for coronavirus and had tweeted, "One final note: I may be the first you know who tested positive, but I won't be the last. Let's take care of each other, listen to the experts and the cities, states and corporations who are taking the lead in the absence of the fed government, and get through this together. END."

[paulxu]

That guy will fit right in.

[boozehound]

It’s sad but this one is pure gold:
March 15: Caputo tweets at Daniel Goldman, a lawyer for House Democrats during impeachment, "Wow. I started out feeling badly for you. At least now we know the Wuhan Virus doesn't have any lingering effects on douchebags."
Goldman had tested positive for coronavirus and had tweeted, "One final note: I may be the first you know who tested positive, but I won't be the last. Let's take care of each other, listen to the experts and the cities, states and corporations who are taking the lead in the absence of the fed government, and get through this together. END."

It's an absolute goldmine of extremely childish internet trolling. Not only was this individual given a high ranking government role, he was given a role as the SPOKESMAN of the HHS. I think that when we look back on the Trump administration the greatest failure will be the unwillingness / inability to staff a functional government. It's also something we probably should have seen coming. Even with all of Trump's character flaws had he simply adequately staffed his government and then been content to be a figurehead things probably would have been fine.

[paulxu]

had he simply adequately staffed his government and then been content to be a figurehead things probably would have been fine.

He did have some good picks. Unfortunately they soon left.

[paulxu]

Speaking of picks, and with a little bit of deja vu, I remember Heckuva Job Brownie was head of an Arabian Horse Association before Katrina.

Not to be outdone, Azar apparently picked a labradoodle breeder to head up the HHS corona virus response.

[bobbiemcgee]

New HHS Spokesman Michael Caputo's Twitter History (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/politics/michael-caputo-tweets/index.html)

Oops. This administration's ineptitude would be hilarious if the stakes weren't so high right now. Doesn't seem that hard to check someone's twitter history?

Unbelievable this guy could work anywhere in govt.

[xubrew]

Okay, when is enough finally enough? This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard any adult actually say, and the fact that he appears to be entirely serious might make him certifiably mentally unbalanced. I mean, SERIOUSLY! What a freakin’ IDIOT!!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

[STL_XUfan]

Okay, when is enough finally enough? This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard any adult actually say, and the fact that he appears to be entirely serious might make him certifiably mentally unbalanced. I mean, SERIOUSLY! What a freakin’ IDIOT!!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

To be fair, it is highly unlikely that you will die of COVID19 if you inject yourself with disinfectants...

[boozehound]

Okay, when is enough finally enough? This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard any adult actually say, and the fact that he appears to be entirely serious might make him certifiably mentally unbalanced. I mean, SERIOUSLY! What a freakin’ IDIOT!!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

Unfortunately I think the answer is 'never', but I agree with you completely. There are people on this board right now who would (attempt to) defend this.

I defy anyone to watch this clip and conclude that we have an intelligent, balanced individual as President right now. That is some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard in my life. When you consider the fact that it is coming from the President it sounds 1000x dumber. Not only is it dangerous, but it makes us look like a country of Idiocracy-level morons to the rest of the world.

You want a litmus test for how we have fallen as a Nation? Try to imagine Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, etc. giving a speech like that. Can you even picture that? If one of those guys had said something like that, there would have been immediate bi-partisan condemnation, and probably a full medical, mental, and psychiatric workup.

When is enough enough? I don't know, but I'm becoming increasingly afraid of the answer.

[Muskie in dayton]

Okay, when is enough finally enough? This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard any adult actually say, and the fact that he appears to be entirely serious might make him certifiably mentally unbalanced. I mean, SERIOUSLY! What a freakin’ IDIOT!!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

I can’t believe I’m going to defend the ass-clown Trump, but the only thing dumber than him is the media. If you read the story he was asking if it was possible to get UV beneath the skin and into that body. That’s not nearly as stupid as the headline made it sound. Still stupid though. I think he was hoping he could turn up his tanning bed a few settings. You’ll know when he tries this when he turns from orange to auburn.

[Lloyd Braun]

I can’t believe I’m going to defend the ass-clown Trump, but the only thing dumber than him is the media. If you read the story he was asking if it was possible to get UV beneath the skin and into that body. That’s not nearly as stupid as the headline made it sound. Still stupid though. I think he was hoping he could turn up his tanning bed a few settings. You’ll know when he tries this when he turns from orange to auburn.

He mentioned the UV light but then mentioned disinfectant that kills the virus.
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

It was the only White House presser I’ve watched during all of this and it didn’t disappoint. He is a colossal moron.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I can’t believe I’m going to defend the ass-clown Trump, but the only thing dumber than him is the media. If you read the story he was asking if it was possible to get UV beneath the skin and into that body. That’s not nearly as stupid as the headline made it sound. Still stupid though. I think he was hoping he could turn up his tanning bed a few settings. You’ll know when he tries this when he turns from orange to auburn.

Yes, he did ask that, but you are completely ignoring the part about looking into injecting disinfectant.

[boozehound]

I can’t believe I’m going to defend the ass-clown Trump, but the only thing dumber than him is the media. If you read the story he was asking if it was possible to get UV beneath the skin and into that body. That’s not nearly as stupid as the headline made it sound. Still stupid though. I think he was hoping he could turn up his tanning bed a few settings. You’ll know when he tries this when he turns from orange to auburn.

Forgot about the headline, I'm talking solely about the content in the video. Don't read the article. Watch the clip. This man is the President of the United States of America and he went on a public, incoherent, rant about getting UV light and disinfectant injections 'inside the body maybe inside the lungs'. We made fun of George Bush for being 'dumb', but try to imagine him giving a speech like that? He would have been rushed to the hospital because we would have been certain that he had a stroke.

The media is in it for the ratings. I get that. I hold the President to a MUCH higher standard, as we all should IMHO.

[boozehound]

Yes, he did ask that, but you are completely ignoring the part about looking into injecting disinfectant.

That part was dumb as shit too though, and I would argue that during a Nationally televised briefing may not be the time to ask highly speculative questions about odd treatments.

[D-West & PO-Z]

That part was dumb as shit too though, and I would argue that during a Nationally televised briefing may not be the time to ask highly speculative questions about odd treatments.

100%

[paulxu]

Please don't inject Lysol into your body, or ingest Tide pods.

I'm not a doctor...but I stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night.

[bobbiemcgee]

Please don't inject Lysol into your body, or ingest Tide pods.

I'm not a doctor...but I stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/g752ce/now_have_you_bravely_inject_yourself_with_lysol/

[xubrew]

This isn't an issue of differing political opinions or philosophies, or even ethics. Speaking strictly in regards to human intelligence, this was historically, epically, and perhaps Biblically MORONIC!!

Injecting disinfectants to clean the lungs of coronavirus. He ACTUALLY said that!!

I mean...I think The Onion may go out of business. How the hell do you even parody that??

[GoMuskies]

It's pretty depressing. And our other option this November doesn't know what day it is, so it's not likely to get a whole lot better.

[xubrew]

It's pretty depressing. And our other option this November doesn't know what day it is, so it's not likely to get a whole lot better.

Yeah, I mean...is this REALLY the best we can do??

I have a theory, and it may sound crazy, but I think there are at least a few people in this country that are not complete and total morons. Can we elect one of them??

[xubrew]

I don't particularly like Mike Pence. I disagree with pretty much all of his views and opinions. But, he at least knows what day it is, and he would NEVER say anything as stupid what Trump just did. At least...I don't think.

[Caf]

I don't particularly like Mike Pence. I disagree with pretty much all of his views and opinions. But, he at least knows what day it is, and he would NEVER say anything as stupid what Trump just did. At least...I don't think.

The VP pick for Biden is so essential for the same reason as this. I really think it would be a mistake not to get Cuomo at this point. He does not have the best/cleanest record but he makes up everywhere Joe is lacking. Executive experience and being a clear coherent speaker are the main 2.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I heard injecting yourself with disinfectant works, but only on Trump voters. I say go for it.

[Xville]

The VP pick for Biden is so essential for the same reason as this. I really think it would be a mistake not to get Cuomo at this point. He does not have the best/cleanest record but he makes up everywhere Joe is lacking. Executive experience and being a clear coherent speaker are the main 2.

Yeah he did a fantastic job in response to this pandemic in new york... no thanks.

I'm voting for my dog next election.

[Mrs. Garrett]

It's pretty depressing. And our other option this November doesn't know what day it is, so it's not likely to get a whole lot better.

Doesn't know what day it is, but still knows injecting yourself with disinfectant is not a good idea.

[paulxu]

I don't particularly like Mike Pence. I disagree with pretty much all of his views and opinions. But, he at least knows what day it is, and he would NEVER say anything as stupid what Trump just did. At least...I don't think.

I'm not sure going on Limbaugh's radio program is such a great recommendation. It sort of validates Rush's conspiracy nonsense when the VP of the United States takes time to be on air with him.

[boozehound]

It's pretty depressing. And our other option this November doesn't know what day it is, so it's not likely to get a whole lot better.


I don't particularly like Mike Pence. I disagree with pretty much all of his views and opinions. But, he at least knows what day it is, and he would NEVER say anything as stupid what Trump just did. At least...I don't think.


The VP pick for Biden is so essential for the same reason as this. I really think it would be a mistake not to get Cuomo at this point. He does not have the best/cleanest record but he makes up everywhere Joe is lacking. Executive experience and being a clear coherent speaker are the main 2.

I agree with all of the above. I like Biden way more than Trump simply because I think he will re-establish a functional government, place qualified people in key positions, and then listen to them. He also won't try to do anything too crazy like Bernie would have. I'm not really excited about Biden, but as a moderate he was my favorite of the likely Democratic options. I wish he was 10 years younger, though. Having said that, there is almost nothing he could do that would keep me from voting for him over Trump.

Cuomo would be an interesting pick for VP. I'd probably prefer him to say, Elizabeth Warren. He has executive experience running a large state and would not be afraid to spar with Trump. Warren could be a tempting pick for Biden that might backfire.

[GoMuskies]

I think people are really going to consider that Biden's VP could become President over the next four years. Even Democrat voters overwhelmingly rejected the idea of an Elizabeth Warren presidency. I think making her VP would backfire massively. Maybe the binder tosser Klobuchar. She was never really a serious contender for President, so I don't think her primary results reflect a rejection of her by voters the same way Warren's results do (since she was at one point considered the frontrunner).

[xubrew]

I think the Democrats may need to be thinking outside the box on this one. How about someone like John McCain as a running mate?? I mean I know he's on the other side of the isle, and I know he's dead, but I still like him a lot more than many of the other candidates.

[sgarcia]

It's funny that people think a guy might be Biden's VP candidate. There's 0 chance of that happening because the DNC won't let it happen. There was also no way anyone other than Biden was getting the nomination once he decided to run. Is there someone behind door number 3 that will magically appear before this election so that the 2 stinky piles of s**t currently in the running aren't the only options?

[xubrew]

I kind of miss the days when I used to see a warning label warning me that the coffee was hot and thinking it was totally unnecessary.

But today!!!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/coronavirus-donald-trump-disinfectant-warning

[boozehound]

It's funny that people think a guy might be Biden's VP candidate. There's 0 chance of that happening because the DNC won't let it happen. There was also no way anyone other than Biden was getting the nomination once he decided to run. Is there someone behind door number 3 that will magically appear before this election so that the 2 stinky piles of s**t currently in the running aren't the only options?

I agree that I think it's likely Biden will choose a female running mate. I also agree with GoMuskies about Warren being dangerous since she has already been rejected by voters. Klobuchar and Harris are both probably better options, and I would imagine both would be interested. Klobuchar clearly is.

I also don't love either option, but I love the Trump option A LOT less. Several orders of magnitude. That dude is a straight-up idiot on a level that almost no other candidate (recent or historical) could approach.

[Muskie in dayton]

He mentioned the UV light but then mentioned disinfectant that kills the virus.
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

It was the only White House presser I’ve watched during all of this and it didn’t disappoint. He is a colossal moron.
My bad. I didn’t see the “continue reading” button. Yeah he’s reached a level of stupid I didn’t think possible. Birx should have told him to give it a try.

I haven’t been watching the pressers lately since it’s mostly garbage, but I’ll have to start again for entertainment value.

[Lloyd Braun]

I was just checking recent odds to maybe place a bet and here is updated odds from a recent Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackjones/2020/04/23/biden-vice-presidential-nominee-odds-shift-as-elizabeth-warren-garners-support/amp/) article.

Odds to be Democratic Vice Presidential Nominee

Kamala Harris: 7/4
Amy Klobuchar: 7/2
Elizabeth Warren: 11/2
Gretchen Whitmer: 15/2
Stacey Abrams: 11/1
Catherine Cortez Masto: 14/1
Michelle Obama: 16/1
Hilary Clinton: 16/1
Tammy Duckworth: 20/1
Val Demings: 25/1

Odds to Win 2020 U.S. Presidential Election:

Donald Trump: 5/6
Joe Biden: 6/5

[Caf]

Yeah he did a fantastic job in response to this pandemic in new york... no thanks.

I'm voting for my dog next election.

Of all the people here who pretend to reluctantly support Trump, you're my favorite. There is zero chance you would ever vote for anyone else.

[bobbiemcgee]

He'd be the first to try injecting some Lysol.

[xubrew]

This video is AMAZING!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeopleDieInside/comments/g6z08y/dr_birxs_reaction_when_president_trump_asks_his/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf